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I am pretty sure this has been addressed and if so, please direct me to the post.

What are the rules on a character with Supernatural Strength wielding a normal (but well crafted) melee weapon affecting a character with Invulnerability or a creature immune to normal weapons?

The power of SS allows one to hurt these beings so does that apply to a weapon he wields. Palladium has always stated that SS is not a function of muscle so it is not the pure force that does the damage.

Thoughts?

My thought is that the weapon is going to bounce off the skin, but if they drop the weapon and punch him they'll then be able to do damage.


Daniel Stoker

Daniel Stoker wrote:My thought is that the weapon is going to bounce off the skin, but if they drop the weapon and punch him they'll then be able to do damage.


Daniel Stoker

Seconded. The weapon would do no damage to the target, but would be fully vulnerable to the damaging weapons with supernatural strength rules. Likely result, the supernaturally strong blow destroys the weapon entirely, leaving the target unscratched.

Ben Grimm swats the Hulk with a lamp post, lamp post destroyed, hulk knocked back, but not injured.
Zod hits Superman in the face with a tank, destroyed tank, momentarily inconvenienced Kal El.

I tend top agree with you both, thanks!

Not a problem, always glad to sound like I know what I'm talking about.


Daniel Stoker

I am pretty sure this has been addressed and if so, please direct me to the post.

What are the rules on a character with Supernatural Strength wielding a normal (but well crafted) melee weapon affecting a character with Invulnerability or a creature immune to normal weapons?

technical answer: The character with SNPS has to use bare handed attacks (IOW: without weapons) to damage those that are immune to normal (mundane) attacks.
plain: the char with SNPS would have to punch or kick the with Invulnerability to do damage to that char. Same when attacking characters immune to normal (Mundane) weapons.

The power of SS allows one to hurt these beings so does that apply to a weapon he wields. Palladium has always stated that SS is not a function of muscle so it is not the pure force that does the damage.

Thoughts?

Thought about things in the rifts game that you might apply to the HU game....
➣There is one character class that has a Mundane equivalent to SNPS. It is the Titan Juicer in the rifts' JU worldbook. It does not mystical quality that allows other chars with true SNPS damage those that are immune from being damaged by mundane weapons or hand to hand attacks. Note: There are players who insist that their house rules supersede the canon text in the TJ class descriptive text that says they are a product of mundane science and the rules in the new VK world book that mundane products of science cannot hurt vampire...(with implications that they can't hurt other that are normally immune to mundane damage.

To the naysayers: If the titan juicers tapped into their psionic potential or magic potential then they would be mega-juicers.

➢As to that SNPS has a mystic quality to it that allows it to hurt those normally immune to mundane damage, the text in the new VK wordbook confirms that true SNPS does have a mystic quality.

Caught between the unbreakable skin of the Invulnerable character and the mystically enhanced force of the SNPS, the weapon would likely snap / break under the force of the blow(s). The Mystical nature of the imparted PS does not get passed onto weapons, possibly with the exception of Bio Aura, since it makes specific reference to taking on the imparted powers of the power holder to the affected objects.

It would depend on what the weapon being used was. Some weapons are magical or indestructible themselves. If a character with SNPS hits a character who is invulnerable with a mystically bestowed weapon or Greater Rune Weapon, the weapon will not take damage and the weapon will deal extra damage due to the SNPS. If a tank is being used to hit an invulnerable character by a SNPS character, it will do damage, just not as much as it would normally. Regular weapons will not do damage and will break of course, like a twig caught between two boulders and smashed to bits.

Stone Gargoyle wrote:If a tank is being used to hit an invulnerable character by a SNPS character, it will do damage, just not as much as it would normally. Regular weapons will not do damage and will break of course, like a twig caught between two boulders and smashed to bits.

This is incorrect.

A tank is not a magical weapon. A tank used as a weapon is, by all rules definitions, no different from a sword, save that it is exponentially harder to swing. A Non-magical weapon does no damage to an invulnerable toon, and neither does the tank.

To follow your logic, a supernaturally strong character can damage the invulnerable with their fists, and transmit this property to any weapon they hold, provided the weapon is big enough or durable enough. A SNPS user could knock out vampires with a lamppost, or destroy werewolves with a statue of Abraham Lincoln.

"Yeah, you're invulnerable, but hey, this is a grand piano I'm swinging here!" won't work in my games.



Thread related references:
HU2 Pg.294 has the rules for supernatural strength vs weapons.
HU-GMG has Brawling rules including automobiles as weapons, starting on pg 54

ITWastrel wrote:

Stone Gargoyle wrote:If a tank is being used to hit an invulnerable character by a SNPS character, it will do damage, just not as much as it would normally. Regular weapons will not do damage and will break of course, like a twig caught between two boulders and smashed to bits.

This is incorrect.

A tank is not a magical weapon. A tank used as a weapon is, by all rules definitions, no different from a sword, save that it is exponentially harder to swing. A Non-magical weapon does no damage to an invulnerable toon, and neither does the tank.

To follow your logic, a supernaturally strong character can damage the invulnerable with their fists, and transmit this property to any weapon they hold, provided the weapon is big enough or durable enough. A SNPS user could knock out vampires with a lamppost, or destroy werewolves with a statue of Abraham Lincoln.

"Yeah, you're invulnerable, but hey, this is a grand piano I'm swinging here!" won't work in my games.



Thread related references:
HU2 Pg.294 has the rules for supernatural strength vs weapons.
HU-GMG has Brawling rules including automobiles as weapons, starting on pg 54

My logic was that the tank is much more reinforced and dense, thus making it harder to destroy and making it potentially able to do damage.

as I recall, you add SnS damage to the weapon. now with Invuln of course, you take half damage from that because SnS gets partially through. The weapon will almost assuredly break because if a weapon takes more than 3 times its max damage, it has a 1-33% chance of breaking, though masterwork weapons can take up to 10 times its max.

ITWastrel wrote:

Stone Gargoyle wrote:If a tank is being used to hit an invulnerable character by a SNPS character, it will do damage, just not as much as it would normally. Regular weapons will not do damage and will break of course, like a twig caught between two boulders and smashed to bits.

This is incorrect.

A tank is not a magical weapon.

I have to agree with the assessment for the same reason.
Anything that is not mystic in nature only does mundane damage. No matter who threw it.

zerombr wrote:as I recall, you add SnS damage to the weapon.

You recall was incorrect.
Correction: Character with SNPS only add the PS bonus (that is found on that chart in the beginning of the HU2 core book) to weapon damages.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

zerombr wrote:as I recall, you add SnS damage to the weapon.

You recall was incorrect.
Correction: Character with SNPS only add the PS bonus (that is found on that chart in the beginning of the HU2 core book) to weapon damages.

We're talking about page 294 yes? weapon damage plus PS damage described in the previous table.

PS damage on the previous table is the supernatural strength table, ie: a SnS PS of 16 does 1d6 on a restrained punch plus the standard +1.

I think the wording is pretty clear that it adds in both.

You're right, zerombr.

HU 2E Core Book, Page 294, column 2:
Supernatural Damage and Hand Weapons: When wielding a melee weapon, such as swords, clubs and knives, a supernatural being inflicts the weapon damage plus P.S. damage as described in the previous table.
column 1:
Supernatural P.S. Damage Table: Note: Add the usual P.S. attribute damage bonus to the damage noted below.

That other setting books are written slightly differently can lead to confusion. Nightbane is written similarly to HU, with an explicit example in the Main Book, page 35, column 2:
Supernatural damage and hand weapons: When wielding a hand weapon, such as swords, clubs and knives, the supernatural being rolls both for its basic hand to hand damage and the weapon's damage. Example: A Nightbane with a P.S. 24 is wielding a sword (1D8 damage). His base hand to hand damage is 3D6+9, so when using a sword he will roll 3D6+9 plus the 1D8 sword damage and add the results together.

MDC settings generally allow either SN strength without the Attribute Bonus Chart bonus or weapon damage, with an incomplete list of exceptions for Rifts found here.

Palladium Fantasy sort of splits the difference, as seen on 2E Main Book, page 18, column 1:
Supernatural Damage and Hand Weapons: When wielding a hand weapon, such as swords, clubs and knives, a supernatural being inflicts either the weapon damage plus P.S. damage bonus or its basic hand to hand damage (see previous table) plus P.S. damage bonus, whichever is greater.

As for Invulnerability or Immune to Melee Attacks, I'd just go with only strength damage applying, but which could be inflicted with a weapon subject to possible breakage, To do otherwise somewhat fetishises the physical contact element. What if, for example, a character with SN strength punches someone while wearing a mailed glove or knuckleduster?

on an unrelated note, we let super energy expulsion do half damage to invulnerable creatures too, because ranged needs an option to work with too

zerombr wrote:We're talking about page 294 yes?

The PS bonus is found in the table on page 15 of the HU2 core book.

zerombr wrote:on an unrelated note, we let super energy expulsion do half damage to invulnerable creatures too, because ranged needs an option to work with too

No... just, no. The SUPERNATURAL nature of the strength is what allows it to affect the Invulnerable character (my guess is it's based on the Silver-Age Superman who basically couldn't be hurt except with magic or kryptonite) - since Super Energy Expulsion is NOT supernatural or magical energy it wouldn't do squat - and as a matter of fact, even magical energy like a Fire Ball spell is listed to specifically do no damage to the Invulnerable being either. And actually, there IS a ranged power in the HU2nd book that can harm invulnerable specifically - Control Radiation, and like Supernatural PS, it does half damage.

It's been a long time since I've gmd a HU game (There was only 1e at the time), but I just didn't allow invulnerability in my games. I think I replaced it with an ability that added a lot of SDC and HP but nobody ever took it.