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if the Phys Training power category got revamped (by me obviously), what would you want to see in it?

I feel as it stands its very bland. I think there's a lot more trick moves or tactics that can be added to it outside of a fairly weak build. Sure it'll never take on an APS metal character too easily, but there's more potential there than we've exploited.

Yes I think the class needs to be reworked. There is so much that can done. Also was looking at the main book and if anyone noticed it is 14 years old. I think the game needs a major overhaul. I think you should go for it!

boxee wrote:Yes I think the class needs to be reworked. There is so much that can done. Also was looking at the main book and if anyone noticed it is 14 years old. I think the game needs a major overhaul. I think you should go for it!

and so I am!

I'm going to give it the Ancient Weapon Master Specialist route that I did for the Stage Mage and the Super Sleuth

The primary parts of the power cat will be having a 'signature move' that you can tack extra effects or damage on (think Iron Fist)

The second part is the ability to use gymnastics and acrobatics to provide additional combat bonuses.

Then there's your standard 'select as you go' items. bonuses vs knockouts, prowl bonuses, force of will, that sort of stuff


So yeah, hit me up with ideas if you got em, I got about 20 total so far counting signature move bonuses

Not too sure. I would be weary of cutting into ninjas and super-spies territory with stuff. If you do not mind cutting in to that I suggest looking at video games like street fighter.

boxee wrote:Not too sure. I would be weary of cutting into ninjas and super-spies territory with stuff. If you do not mind cutting inot that I suggest looking at video games like street fighter.

its true that you can make a pretty swell hand to hand char in ninjas and superspies. I actually do want to touch base with N&S, which is why I have a 3rd type of PT hero, the one that can use chi. They won't be a full chi master like in N&S, but having access to body chi, hard chi, and soft chi, makes a char pretty versatile.

Overall Heroes chars are generally considered to be a level above N&S, at least I feel the Special Training chars are meant to be so. I'm keeping with that overall, but without stealing that which makes N&S so great.

Well I look forward to seeing what you do with the category!

Thank you, I was just working on it. I hope the end result is something you may enjoy.

Perhaps blur the lines between having powers and not having powers.

Once upon a time I looked at "powers" that aren't necessarily inhuman. Especially given that Superhuman strength is already offered some of these powers could be a result of physical and/or special training.

Battle Rage: None of the bonuses are beyond what a normal albeit an exceptional person can do. [also the power sucks]

Feral: The bonuses are nothing that an experience character can't match or surpass. I can see in a comic setting someone who lived the right lifestyle gaining this 'power'

Heightened Sense of Balance: Why not, he's just that good

Physical Perfection: Of course

Targeting: We can all name a half dozen normal humans in comics with this 'power'

Animal Brother: While it would be odd and noteworthy. It doesn't have a mind control element to it. It's just a person who is well learned in the way of animals, and has a particular bond with one pet.

Extraordinary Physical Beauty: I'd allow it, nothing really super human there. again depends how literally you take the charm/impress table.

Impervious to Fear & Terror: Well we are all desensitized to a degree after all

Living Anatomy: A perception / knowledge based power, I’m cool with it

Natural Combat Ability: Oddly enough if you leave out the ability to automatically copy the guy you're facing, the actual abilities of this power are not all that much greater than any other well trained/experienced martial artist/weapon master.

Extraordinary Physical Prowess: the autododge is steep. Now in comics it seems like the average person has an autododge though? Plus they already offer Superhuman Physical Strength.

Extraordinary Physical Endurance: Pushing it. Fatigue at 1/10 the normal rate. Then the 40-160 SDC makes you a bullet soaking machine

Increased Durability: If I'll allow EX PE, I guess I'll allow this

Lightning Reflex: See EX PP

Heavy Weight: I shy away at the natural AR. It is fairly low, but still it means that a low rolling automatic weapon doesn't hurt him. Perhaps with a caveat

I don't intend to just copy powers away from the mutants, however your feedback on your thoughts to all of those powers provides me a good deal of input on how far you think they can be taken, and that is quite useful!

One of my favorite things about Heroes Second Edition is the changes to the Physical Training character class. I like the two different focuses and two different hand to hand combat types. Any changes should still have these choices, with maybe a few more.

Suggested changes:
Physical training should be a perfect human specimen, in looks and health so maybe a PB bonus as well as bonuses to save vs. illness and poisons.

Give physical attributes a minimum. Don't just say +2D4 to PE give a minimum for the attribute like 17 for this or 22 for that, depending on focus or hand to hand they take.

Maybe give a bonus to the five senses. Vision, hearing, etc all being equal to maybe 1/4 to 1/2 what the minor super power is.

Additional skill choices for military and rogue would be good too.

Skills for Parkour and Free Running would be good too.

zerombr wrote:I don't intend to just copy powers away from the mutants, however your feedback on your thoughts to all of those powers provides me a good deal of input on how far you think they can be taken, and that is quite useful!

I am really glad to hear this. The thing I have loved about HU, ever since I played the old First Edition Revised, is that you do not have to play a powered person. In fact I have never played a powered person in HU. I have always played the skilled characters (Super Spy, Hardware, and especially the Physical Training). This is why I am really looking forward to the Super Sleuth Revisited in Rifter 81.

Another point of inspiration would be the Natural Genius from PU2. Instead of Mental Discipline would be Physical Disciplines.

You would have things like

Power Lifting
Striking
Parkour / Speed Running
Endurance Training
Coordination
Perhaps a little side note saying that alternatively they can choose a body hardening exercise from N&SS

I also felt some minimum stats would be useful. I also am thinking that Parkour should be represented. Right now I'm using that name to represent the basic 'catch all' physical skill, but I feel like I could name it better.

The idea of better eyesight and stuff is interesting, but I dont feel you can train that as easy?

About Power Lifting, I was just pondering that, but considering how it currently stands, especially with the Strength/Toughness Hero, they already have superhuman, I think increasing their deadlift ability might be too much.

I'm adding in a 3rd style of the PT hero, one who has access to some of the chi abilities of N&S.

My current boondoggle right now is trying to balance out the unique hand to hand progression, with the abilities you can acquire as you level up.

See, the PT hero in my redesign has 3-4 things.

Unique hand to hand charts for each of the 3 types
Parkouring - using gymnastics/acrobatics to pull off wilder moves in combat to deal more damage or add to offense/defense
a Signature Move that has special effects, like blinding, or elemental damage.
and lastly, some abilities as you level up, where you could have extra bonuses to disarm, or heal slightly faster, a bit of weapon skill (but not nearly as focused as the AWMS in the Rifter).

I just feel as it stands, it gets a lot of bonuses and with Parkouring, it can get a lot more, so I am not sure how to balance it out. I know it needs choices and further customization, and some of the hand-to-hand charts in the book are pretty weak

(woo hoo, I gained extra kicks this level -.- )

Warshield73 wrote:Suggested changes:
Physical training should be a perfect human specimen, in looks and health so maybe a PB bonus as well as bonuses to save vs. illness and poisons.

Give physical attributes a minimum. Don't just say +2D4 to PE give a minimum for the attribute like 17 for this or 22 for that, depending on focus or hand to hand they take.

Maybe give a bonus to the five senses. Vision, hearing, etc all being equal to maybe 1/4 to 1/2 what the minor super power is.

Additional skill choices for military and rogue would be good too.

If the point of the Physical Training character is, basically, “being fit and good-looking, and having a knack for picking up skills of a roguish and espionage-type slant, and getting a bonus to dodge as if they could read body language so well that someone in this thread has already suggested giving them the Living Anatomy power”, then I figure you could do worse than giving them a “just has useful contacts” option: without getting into conversions, it seems like a perk that perfectly fits the type.

As a side note, I also figure it’d let them contribute in ways other than just being great at physical stuff — only without actually making them better at anything other than physical stuff, which I figure is maybe the least bad way to expand the schtick without moving away from it.

Regularguy wrote:
As a side note, I also figure it’d let them contribute in ways other than just being great at physical stuff — only without actually making them better at anything other than physical stuff, which I figure is maybe the least bad way to expand the schtick without moving away from it.

THIS is what I am looking for. I am open to your suggestions, sir!

When I think of physical training characters I think of the martial arts film stars. Bruce Lee, Jet Li, Jackie Chan, Donnie Yeun, Jean-Claude Van Damme. People who through physical dedication can pull off some absolutely amazing feats and With a Little Help From a wire crew and special effects team can make those feats seem superhuman. The physical training character can do all of these things and more, but for real!

The Oh So Amazing Nate wrote:When I think of physical training characters I think of the martial arts film stars. Bruce Lee, Jet Li, Jackie Chan, Donnie Yeun, Jean-Claude Van Damme. People who through physical dedication can pull off some absolutely amazing feats and With a Little Help From a wire crew and special effects team can make those feats seem superhuman. The physical training character can do all of these things and more, but for real!

Lately when I think of Physical Training I think of Arrow, Oliver Queen. Some bonuses for ancient and maybe even modern weapons.

I still think that bonuses to senses are a good thing but I love thing about reading body language for a dodge bonus and maybe even initiative bonuses.

Some other things I thought of while I was creating a character for phase world are basic physical abilities like ambidextrous and being double jointed.

Good luck on this and can't wait to see what you did with the Super Sleuth.

You wouldn't place Oliver Queen as an Ancient Weapon Master (Specialist)?

I've got some selectable bonuses in there. Ambidexterity and Double Jointed are both great things to throw in, and they're both easy as they're already statted out. Thank you!

And thank you on the interest in 'Hitting the Streets'

Phys Training chars get a lot of attacks as it is (one of their upsides), I am not sure I'd want to add ambidexterity to it so people could slide in another attack, but I think I'll use Double Jointed.

I also wouldn't be opposed to a more "eastern" physical training option

Is throwing a hadoken someone you learn through physical training?
HU 2 already claims that a Chi Punch is fair game.

I know there is an instinct towards "balance" but remember both Ex P.S. and Superhuman P.S. are minor powers. Master Psionic and Latent Psionic are in the same power category. The 9.5 Million Robot is the same Category as the 13.5 Million.

The goal is to create a variety of characters, not to try and make everyone equal.

I thought about the Chi attack but I was thinking that should stay with the Ancient Master, since he has more chi related abilities.

I do have the third type of PT hero, the one based around body chi/hard chi/soft chi. Which gives some starting point for that. Heck, Body chi is dang powerful for a temporary boost.

zerombr wrote:You wouldn't place Oliver Queen as an Ancient Weapon Master (Specialist)?

I think the heart of creating Arrow, Batman, even the Punisher and similar characters in HU is the Physical training. After you get the physical aspect down you can get the rest with skills and equipment.

As for Oliver Queen, I admit I am getting everything from the TV show as I have never read GA comics so just keep that in mind.

zerombr wrote:And thank you on the interest in 'Hitting the Streets'

I love the Special Training characters (of which I consider the physical training part of) but in first edition HU they were horribly under powered. I played a Super Spy and after one super powered person rolled Masters Degree and another rolled Military Specialist I was left with almost nothing to do. I had like four skills those characters didn't and I might have been able to take on one or maybe low end henchmen while those two invariable took out the big bad. Second Edition made them a little better but they are still under powered compared to Robots, hardware, and especially super powered characters.

Special Training needs skills. There should be skills that they have that no other character can get and equipment/resources.

zerombr wrote:Phys Training chars get a lot of attacks as it is (one of their upsides), I am not sure I'd want to add ambidexterity to it so people could slide in another attack, but I think I'll use Double Jointed.

Simple, don't give them an extra attack for it. just have it so that you get no penalty using your off hand. It should also give bonus in a hand to hand, mainly to trike or initiative when you switch your attack from right handed dominance to left and back again. I had friend who competed in martial arts tournaments in high school and she frequently beat opponents, including men, by switching her stance at the begining of each round. It is really difficult to fight someone who switches like that. I know there are real life examples but I am not enough of a fight fan to really know.

Also things like ambidextrous and double jointed should help with skill like escape, if they take it.

Incriptus wrote:I also wouldn't be opposed to a more "eastern" physical training option

Is throwing a hadoken someone you learn through physical training?
HU 2 already claims that a Chi Punch is fair game.

I would like to avoid too much overlap with the ancient master, but a few things along the lines of Power Punch or kick.

Incriptus wrote:I know there is an instinct towards "balance" but remember both Ex P.S. and Superhuman P.S. are minor powers. Master Psionic and Latent Psionic are in the same power category. The 9.5 Million Robot is the same Category as the 13.5 Million.

The goal is to create a variety of characters, not to try and make everyone equal.

Equality isn't necessary, but every character should have a hook, something that makes them interesting to run and make players want to run them. I have to say after running HU convention games for 7 or 8 years now the physical training, and special training characters, are often last to be picked and the least popular.

Warshield73 wrote:
I love the Special Training characters (of which I consider the physical training part of) but in first edition HU they were horribly under powered. I played a Super Spy and after one super powered person rolled Masters Degree and another rolled Military Specialist I was left with almost nothing to do. I had like four skills those characters didn't and I might have been able to take on one or maybe low end henchmen while those two invariable took out the big bad. Second Edition made them a little better but they are still under powered compared to Robots, hardware, and especially super powered characters.

Special Training needs skills. There should be skills that they have that no other character can get and equipment/resources.

I'm not sure its possible to give just outright give skills that can't be replicated, but I think you can give a character tricks that others can't have, like with the Stage Mage, who has the super skill of Sleight of Hand, which combines three other skills into a higher percentage, and then some tricks that work with Sleight of Hand. The Sleuth has the same thing with Criminal Investigation and Digital Intrusion.

The Secret Operative is probably next on the docket for me, but I haven't figured out what skills to mash together into the superskill Infiltrator (Prowl and Surveillance?)

Warshield73 wrote:Simple, don't give them an extra attack for it. just have it so that you get no penalty using your off hand. It should also give bonus in a hand to hand, mainly to trike or initiative when you switch your attack from right handed dominance to left and back again. I had friend who competed in martial arts tournaments in high school and she frequently beat opponents, including men, by switching her stance at the begining of each round. It is really difficult to fight someone who switches like that. I know there are real life examples but I am not enough of a fight fan to really know.

Also things like ambidextrous and double jointed should help with skill like escape, if they take it.

the double jointed ability for Mutants provides a rather high chance of escape artist at least from basic bonds, I was going to go with that, but break it up into a few different ranks. Maybe, not sure if I'll do it that way or not. I doubt people'd buy all 3 ranks of Double Jointed.

The idea for ambidexterity is interesting, I may split that up between two ideas, a flourish ability to make yourself unpredictable (though this is close to stunting as it is), and the general ability to be ambidexterous

Warshield73 wrote:The goal is to create a variety of characters, not to try and make everyone equal.
Equality isn't necessary, but every character should have a hook, something that makes them interesting to run and make players want

to run them. I have to say after running HU convention games for 7 or 8 years now the physical training, and special training characters, are often last to be picked and the least popular.

THIS is why I am writing these articles, those special training chars get no love, man! I want to do all of em, except maybe the ancient master which is pretty decent. I love low powered heroism, and I get really tired of everyone having to have mutant powers, so yeah, thats what all this is about!

And thank you again for your thoughts, it really is helping me put things together!

P.S.

I'm just brainstorming with the above suggestions, more or less thinking out loud as it were

Warshield73 wrote:I love the Special Training characters (of which I consider the physical training part of) but in first edition HU they were horribly under powered. I played a Super Spy and after one super powered person rolled Masters Degree and another rolled Military Specialist I was left with almost nothing to do. I had like four skills those characters didn't and I might have been able to take on one or maybe low end henchmen while those two invariable took out the big bad.

On that note, my Main(Most Played/Most Talked About) HU2 character is a Physical Training. The Crimson Fist was the only person on the team without powers*. Fortunately I really did roll Doctorate Ph.D for education so I had a secondary skill set to fall back on. [Most of the team were either "on the job training" to nab the Espionage skills].




*Super Human Strength, and something very close to E.X. PE, and and the ability to punch invulnerable people aside

Incriptus, do you happen to recall what Crimson Fist's P.S. ended up being? Was it like, in the 30s or 40s?

Just thought I would throw this out here
When I ran my C.A.P.E.S. Game a while back my group learned to curse the Burgundy Bandits, my gang of Physical Training henchgirls of the Big Bad.
Some of the things that made them such a pain were the auto stuff. Automatic dodge and Especially Automatic Flip were great for dealing with tanks. Joint Locks, Sweeping Kicks and Trips also ruined many peoples days. Add in a few electrified melee weapons, and the occasional gun or gas grenade and you had a menace that was far more dangerous than it appeared on paper.

As such, I would suggest that skimming through the various books for the various physical skills and collecting some of them for use might be of great use. An assortment of 'force multipliers' might be useful as well. Stuff like brass knuckles, sap gloves, stun batons, gas grenades, and the like. Stuff that is not hardware or superspy gizmos but more like... well martial artist stuff. More like early Batman or Green Hornet.

eliakon wrote:Just thought I would throw this out here
When I ran my C.A.P.E.S. Game a while back my group learned to curse the Burgundy Bandits, my gang of Physical Training henchgirls of the Big Bad.
Some of the things that made them such a pain were the auto stuff. Automatic dodge and Especially Automatic Flip were great for dealing with tanks. Joint Locks, Sweeping Kicks and Trips also ruined many peoples days. Add in a few electrified melee weapons, and the occasional gun or gas grenade and you had a menace that was far more dangerous than it appeared on paper.

As such, I would suggest that skimming through the various books for the various physical skills and collecting some of them for use might be of great use. An assortment of 'force multipliers' might be useful as well. Stuff like brass knuckles, sap gloves, stun batons, gas grenades, and the like. Stuff that is not hardware or superspy gizmos but more like... well martial artist stuff. More like early Batman or Green Hornet.

Hmmm, that's not a bad idea. I'm not sure what sort of equipment I could add myself, and I'm not sure I'd want to just rewrite the physical skill article in the earlier rifter, but that's got some potential there. Thank you.

zerombr wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:I love the Special Training characters (of which I consider the physical training part of) but in first edition HU they were horribly under powered. I played a Super Spy and after one super powered person rolled Masters Degree and another rolled Military Specialist I was left with almost nothing to do. I had like four skills those characters didn't and I might have been able to take on one or maybe low end henchmen while those two invariable took out the big bad. Second Edition made them a little better but they are still under powered compared to Robots, hardware, and especially super powered characters.

Special Training needs skills. There should be skills that they have that no other character can get and equipment/resources.

I'm not sure its possible to give just outright give skills that can't be replicated, but I think you can give a character tricks that others can't have, like with the Stage Mage, who has the super skill of Sleight of Hand, which combines three other skills into a higher percentage, and then some tricks that work with Sleight of Hand. The Sleuth has the same thing with Criminal Investigation and Digital Intrusion.

I like what you did with the Stage Magician and I saw a little of the Super Sleuth on the PDF preview but I'm not sure if that is the way to go with the Physical Training. I still think increasing physical attributes, especially giving them a minimum value after the roll, combined with more weapons skills and better hand to hand tricks is a way to go. The idea of the "perfect" physical specimen to me is more interesting then giving them gadgets.

zerombr wrote:the double jointed ability for Mutants provides a rather high chance of escape artist at least from basic bonds, I was going to go with that, but break it up into a few different ranks. Maybe, not sure if I'll do it that way or not. I doubt people'd buy all 3 ranks of Double Jointed.

The idea for ambidexterity is interesting, I may split that up between two ideas, a flourish ability to make yourself unpredictable (though this is close to stunting as it is), and the general ability to be ambidexterous

This sounds really good. I like how I saw this work in Stage Magician so it could really add something to the PT character.

Warshield73 wrote:

I like what you did with the Stage Magician and I saw a little of the Super Sleuth on the PDF preview but I'm not sure if that is the way to go with the Physical Training. I still think increasing physical attributes, especially giving them a minimum value after the roll, combined with more weapons skills and better hand to hand tricks is a way to go. The idea of the "perfect" physical specimen to me is more interesting then giving them gadgets.

I don't quite follow. I feel like you're agreeing with me, but you're not. I agree with all of these things.

Warshield73 wrote:This sounds really good. I like how I saw this work in Stage Magician so it could really add something to the PT character.

I decided this might just be a single ability that you can select, I mean, either you're double jointed or you're not, that's more your genetics than anything.

zerombr wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:I like what you did with the Stage Magician and I saw a little of the Super Sleuth on the PDF preview but I'm not sure if that is the way to go with the Physical Training. I still think increasing physical attributes, especially giving them a minimum value after the roll, combined with more weapons skills and better hand to hand tricks is a way to go. The idea of the "perfect" physical specimen to me is more interesting then giving them gadgets.

I don't quite follow. I feel like you're agreeing with me, but you're not. I agree with all of these things.

Sorry. I think I was reacting to this post

zerombr wrote:

eliakon wrote:Just thought I would throw this out here
When I ran my C.A.P.E.S. Game a while back my group learned to curse the Burgundy Bandits, my gang of Physical Training henchgirls of the Big Bad.
Some of the things that made them such a pain were the auto stuff. Automatic dodge and Especially Automatic Flip were great for dealing with tanks. Joint Locks, Sweeping Kicks and Trips also ruined many peoples days. Add in a few electrified melee weapons, and the occasional gun or gas grenade and you had a menace that was far more dangerous than it appeared on paper.

As such, I would suggest that skimming through the various books for the various physical skills and collecting some of them for use might be of great use. An assortment of 'force multipliers' might be useful as well. Stuff like brass knuckles, sap gloves, stun batons, gas grenades, and the like. Stuff that is not hardware or superspy gizmos but more like... well martial artist stuff. More like early Batman or Green Hornet.

Hmmm, that's not a bad idea. I'm not sure what sort of equipment I could add myself, and I'm not sure I'd want to just rewrite the physical skill article in the earlier rifter, but that's got some potential there. Thank you.

but I screwed it up. What I was saying was the PT needs to be physical, all muscle and skill. They shouldn't bleed over into Hardware or Secret Operative. Leave out the gimmick gear. Save it for the updated secret operative.

zerombr wrote:The Secret Operative is probably next on the docket for me, but I haven't figured out what skills to mash together into the superskill Infiltrator (Prowl and Surveillance?)

I tried to make an updated Secret Operative a few years ago but I have a hard time writing the character stuff. If you are looking for inspiration I have two words, "Burn Notice". I think one of the problems with the SO is they try to make it like James Bond, when Micheal Weston is a far better candidate for an RPG.

One thing I added to the SO for a girl playing one about five years ago was and expanded impersonation ability focused on a few languages. So she spoke English, Russian, French, Hebrew. This ability allowed her to mimic accents so she could sound like she came from the American Midwest or Ireland, recognize a Russian speaker as coming from Chechnya, or if she was impersonating an Israeli spy make her fighting style look like krav maga instead of western martial arts.

An option to upgrade to hand to hand commando would be good

More Languages, this is a must. The SO should be the character in the group that can blend in anywhere

Change the attribute bonuses to increase ME, instead of PS

Take intelligence and research and make an expanded skill for investigations

Expanding streetwise into giving contacts like arms dealers, money launderers, smugglers. This should give them an edge when tracking people or get weapons and below market price.

Redo or even eliminate the Special equipment, even the bond movies are getting away from this.

When you go to work on this I hope you make another post, I have ideas.

Warshield73 wrote:

zerombr wrote:

eliakon wrote:Just thought I would throw this out here
When I ran my C.A.P.E.S. Game a while back my group learned to curse the Burgundy Bandits, my gang of Physical Training henchgirls of the Big Bad.
Some of the things that made them such a pain were the auto stuff. Automatic dodge and Especially Automatic Flip were great for dealing with tanks. Joint Locks, Sweeping Kicks and Trips also ruined many peoples days. Add in a few electrified melee weapons, and the occasional gun or gas grenade and you had a menace that was far more dangerous than it appeared on paper.

As such, I would suggest that skimming through the various books for the various physical skills and collecting some of them for use might be of great use. An assortment of 'force multipliers' might be useful as well. Stuff like brass knuckles, sap gloves, stun batons, gas grenades, and the like. Stuff that is not hardware or superspy gizmos but more like... well martial artist stuff. More like early Batman or Green Hornet.

Hmmm, that's not a bad idea. I'm not sure what sort of equipment I could add myself, and I'm not sure I'd want to just rewrite the physical skill article in the earlier rifter, but that's got some potential there. Thank you.

but I screwed it up. What I was saying was the PT needs to be physical, all muscle and skill. They shouldn't bleed over into Hardware or Secret Operative. Leave out the gimmick gear. Save it for the updated secret operative.

I would leave 'gimmicks' for the secret operative sure
But physical fighters have been using weapons since before the stone age.
A sword is a gimmick. So is a staff, or a sai, or a pair of nunchucks... or a set of brass knuckles.
The stuff you can buy over the counter and that are associated with martial arts or street fighting should be included in a class that is all about martial arts and street fighting I would think.
Like I said, sap gloves, Tasers (ranged and contact), brass knuckles, sword canes, sword umbrellas, riot shields and riot batons, pepper spray, kendo armor...and stuff like "what is the vision penalty for a gas mask" (because of all those gimmick users and the like)

To me the idea that a PT character is going to just run around bare handed is, frankly, ludicrous. This is not some sort of monk. I mean yes that is one kind of PT character...but the entire class should not be pigeonholed into a tight narrow band where people are told "you must play it this way and have no flexibility to expand beyond this or use any tools"
Especially since almost all of the example PT characters in the books come with martial arts weapons!

all fair points, and will be duly noted.Warshield73, I may discuss further for you for Secret Operative ideas if you'd like. I already have the basic idea set up, one of their signature abilities will be to 'retroactively' gain piloting/language/WPs, I think. its a bit meta, but Secret Agents almost always know how to work with about anything they come across. And this idea represents that.

eliakon wrote:I would leave 'gimmicks' for the secret operative sure
But physical fighters have been using weapons since before the stone age.
A sword is a gimmick. So is a staff, or a sai, or a pair of nunchucks... or a set of brass knuckles.
The stuff you can buy over the counter and that are associated with martial arts or street fighting should be included in a class that is all about martial arts and street fighting I would think.
Like I said, sap gloves, Tasers (ranged and contact), brass knuckles, sword canes, sword umbrellas, riot shields and riot batons, pepper spray, kendo armor...and stuff like "what is the vision penalty for a gas mask" (because of all those gimmick users and the like)

To me the idea that a PT character is going to just run around bare handed is, frankly, ludicrous. This is not some sort of monk. I mean yes that is one kind of PT character...but the entire class should not be pigeonholed into a tight narrow band where people are told "you must play it this way and have no flexibility to expand beyond this or use any tools"
Especially since almost all of the example PT characters in the books come with martial arts weapons!

I agree that they are not going around just beating people with his bare hands but to me this is not a character that should have special gear. They have "Available Financial Resources" and "Life Savings" that they can turn around and use to buy any weapons they want.

The PT character I played started with just a couple of wooden baseball bats, which came in really handy when the SOB GM had they mage we were fighting in our second scenario summon 2 vampires. Over time I was able to salvage (loot from dead enemies) or purchase all sorts of gear and weapons.

zerombr wrote:all fair points, and will be duly noted.Warshield73, I may discuss further for you for Secret Operative ideas if you'd like. I already have the basic idea set up, one of their signature abilities will be to 'retroactively' gain piloting/language/WPs, I think. its a bit meta, but Secret Agents almost always know how to work with about anything they come across. And this idea represents that.

I think this is the heart of any secret operative in movies and TV, they are always more skilled then others within certain parameters.

I will say that sense I gave the secret operative the expanded impersonation skill and expanded intelligence/research with a set of contacts for them to draw information from the SO has become very popular.

Good luck on both of these, can't wait to see what you do.

Warshield73 wrote:

eliakon wrote:I would leave 'gimmicks' for the secret operative sure
But physical fighters have been using weapons since before the stone age.
A sword is a gimmick. So is a staff, or a sai, or a pair of nunchucks... or a set of brass knuckles.
The stuff you can buy over the counter and that are associated with martial arts or street fighting should be included in a class that is all about martial arts and street fighting I would think.
Like I said, sap gloves, Tasers (ranged and contact), brass knuckles, sword canes, sword umbrellas, riot shields and riot batons, pepper spray, kendo armor...and stuff like "what is the vision penalty for a gas mask" (because of all those gimmick users and the like)

To me the idea that a PT character is going to just run around bare handed is, frankly, ludicrous. This is not some sort of monk. I mean yes that is one kind of PT character...but the entire class should not be pigeonholed into a tight narrow band where people are told "you must play it this way and have no flexibility to expand beyond this or use any tools"
Especially since almost all of the example PT characters in the books come with martial arts weapons!

I agree that they are not going around just beating people with his bare hands but to me this is not a character that should have special gear. They have "Available Financial Resources" and "Life Savings" that they can turn around and use to buy any weapons they want.

EXACTLY!
And right now if you want that stuff you have to go digging around through a ton of books searching hither and yon to find it. Most people can't tell you off hand where to find the rules for Tasers for instance. Or the combat values for sap gloves (or even that they exist). Or know the price of a riot shield (and what is its SDC anyway). Or where to find bangsticks. Or the combat value of road flares. Or the stat blocks for sports gear. Or... I could go on and on about all the sorts of things that are classic to the PT class that are hard to obscure to out of print.
A block of gear associated with the class with stats and prices all in once nice easy to find centrally located place is going to make life a LOT easier on the player of the PT character. Especially ones who do not have every book ever published by Palladium to allow them to go searching for the obscure canon value for the combat values for baseball bats and golf clubs or how heavy a clear riot shield is.

hmmm! okay, I see what you're getting at. I don't like how tasers are set up (along with most less-lethal items), I have some ideas on how to rework them.

zerombr wrote:hmmm! okay, I see what you're getting at. I don't like how tasers are set up (along with most less-lethal items), I have some ideas on how to rework them.

yeah.
Right now the most powerful and dangerous weapons in the game are the various stun devices.
I'm not sure how to make a viable alternative... but right now they are just sickeningly powerful.

eliakon wrote:

zerombr wrote:hmmm! okay, I see what you're getting at. I don't like how tasers are set up (along with most less-lethal items), I have some ideas on how to rework them.

yeah.
Right now the most powerful and dangerous weapons in the game are the various stun devices.
I'm not sure how to make a viable alternative... but right now they are just sickeningly powerful.

here's how I'd redo them overall.

Rubber bullets, bean bad guns and the like. are 'less lethal'. They do 1D6 less damage than their counterparts, they also mostly just do SDC damage. When a less lethal weapon does HP damage, it does the absolute minimum, so a person can still be killed as its less lethal, not non lethal. these weapons are also no good against any form of body armor and do minimum damage to that as well. When a person is in HP and gets struck, now they start getting those pain/stunning penalties.

Tasers IDK, because they really do take you right out of the fight.

I've been tased before during training for work. They don't do it anymore because people were getting hurt when they fell down like a sack of potatoes. When you're being tased, you are totally immobilized unless both prongs are on knly one arm or one leg or if they're only a couple inches apart. If the prong placement is good, meaning there's some decent distance between the probes over which the electricity can flow, it's very difficult, if not impossible, to fight through. Mlk ost people just go down. The crazy thing is that once the 5-second cycle ends, you're fine. These movies where someone zaps a person in the neck with a non-shooting hand-held model and the victim passes out is bull. They don't work that way. All that would do is cause a lot of pain. When the current stops, whether from being shot with a cartridge-based taser or if one is used in "touch-stun" mode, you're fine afterward.... little residual pain.

The cartridges used most have very thin wires that extend 21 feet. The tips of the darts are like a straight fishing hook with little barbs in them. Nasty little buggers!

Jack Burton wrote:I've been tased before during training for work. They don't do it anymore because people were getting hurt when they fell down like a sack of potatoes. When you're being tased, you are totally immobilized unless both prongs are on knly one arm or one leg or if they're only a couple inches apart. If the prong placement is good, meaning there's some decent distance between the probes over which the electricity can flow, it's very difficult, if not impossible, to fight through. Mlk ost people just go down. The crazy thing is that once the 5-second cycle ends, you're fine. These movies where someone zaps a person in the neck with a non-shooting hand-held model and the victim passes out is bull. They don't work that way. All that would do is cause a lot of pain. When the current stops, whether from being shot with a cartridge-based taser or if one is used in "touch-stun" mode, you're fine afterward.... little residual pain.

The cartridges used most have very thin wires that extend 21 feet. The tips of the darts are like a straight fishing hook with little barbs in them. Nasty little buggers!

True
But then again in real life being in the radius of a grenade is pretty much instant death.
In real life people who get shot five or six times dont proceed to use kung-fu (which does more damage than the gun that shot them) to take out the 23 ninjas attacking them.
In the real world you can't choose to actively dodge bullets let alone laser beams
In the real world fire has to burn fuel and there are round about zero walking people made out of pure fire that consumes no fuel
In the real world people cant fly, use super powers, cast spells, engage in psionics, break out chi powers and there are no aliens operating on earth.

It is almost as if this is a game, not a reality simulator, and a highly cinematic one at that. One where cinematic reality sets the rules not pesky real world physics. So yeah... having electric stun weapons cause 'stun penalties' is fine... because if you model them on real world they become your pick of 'useless' or 'almighty'. And frankly both are not desirable.

I mean sure... you could make the game a gritty realistic one. Palladium though calls that "Recon" becuse its grim, weapons are super deadly, martial arts are pretty pointless and there are no aliens, super heroes, mages, psychics, dee-bees and running around in a cape gets you arrested as a vigelante.

eliakon wrote:True
But then again in real life being in the radius of a grenade is pretty much instant death.
In real life people who get shot five or six times dont proceed to use kung-fu (which does more damage than the gun that shot them) to take out the 23 ninjas attacking them.
In the real world you can't choose to actively dodge bullets let alone laser beams
In the real world fire has to burn fuel and there are round about zero walking people made out of pure fire that consumes no fuel
In the real world people cant fly, use super powers, cast spells, engage in psionics, break out chi powers and there are no aliens operating on earth.

It is almost as if this is a game, not a reality simulator, and a highly cinematic one at that. One where cinematic reality sets the rules not pesky real world physics. So yeah... having electric stun weapons cause 'stun penalties' is fine... because if you model them on real world they become your pick of 'useless' or 'almighty'. And frankly both are not desirable.

I mean sure... you could make the game a gritty realistic one. Palladium though calls that "Recon" becuse its grim, weapons are super deadly, martial arts are pretty pointless and there are no aliens, super heroes, mages, psychics, dee-bees and running around in a cape gets you arrested as a vigelante.

Probably depends on the group's preference and threshold for cinematic liberties. It can be tailored either way or somewhere in between.

Jack Burton wrote:

eliakon wrote:True
But then again in real life being in the radius of a grenade is pretty much instant death.
In real life people who get shot five or six times dont proceed to use kung-fu (which does more damage than the gun that shot them) to take out the 23 ninjas attacking them.
In the real world you can't choose to actively dodge bullets let alone laser beams
In the real world fire has to burn fuel and there are round about zero walking people made out of pure fire that consumes no fuel
In the real world people cant fly, use super powers, cast spells, engage in psionics, break out chi powers and there are no aliens operating on earth.

It is almost as if this is a game, not a reality simulator, and a highly cinematic one at that. One where cinematic reality sets the rules not pesky real world physics. So yeah... having electric stun weapons cause 'stun penalties' is fine... because if you model them on real world they become your pick of 'useless' or 'almighty'. And frankly both are not desirable.

I mean sure... you could make the game a gritty realistic one. Palladium though calls that "Recon" becuse its grim, weapons are super deadly, martial arts are pretty pointless and there are no aliens, super heroes, mages, psychics, dee-bees and running around in a cape gets you arrested as a vigelante.

Probably depends on the group's preference and threshold for cinematic liberties. It can be tailored either way or somewhere in between.

The default level of the game though is pretty open and shut cinematic.
Especially in Heroes Unlimited.
Now yes, a group can change up the rules to make the game more 'realistic' if they wish. But that requires changing the rules.
And if you have to change the rules of the game to accomplish something... then that something is not part of the game as written.
So no, I do not think that nitty gritty realism is in any way, shape or form a justification for anything in Palladium. Thus we have weapons that people can easily survive and stun weapons that do not instanlty disable (or at least that is the intent. As it is they more or less do anyway).

This is something that I think authors need to remember. Just because your personal group likes to play the game a certain way doesnt mean that your way of playing is the right way. The tone of the basic game is something that shines through and in my opinion writing should either reflect that tone, or state that it is moving away from the regular tone.
And if an article is to be about 'fixing' or 'updating' the Physical Training class then by golly it really aught to be in line with the general tone of the game. Because otherwise it is litterally worse than useless. At least a useless article is easy to ignore. But an article that tries to revise the entire games tone, rules structure, narative assumptions to make the game line fit the authors view of how the game should have been done... well it just ends up simply muddying the waters while at the same time poisoning the well for anyone that wants to write something that actually acomplishes the task.

I have the greatest respect for zerombr so far because he has managed to do just that. His stage magicians for example are both new, fun, customizable... and fit the cinematic tone of the game. I have high hopes that he will be able to do that for the Physical Training as well.
Which is why wading into something as tricky as stun weapons is an area that needs to be dealt with carefully and with thought and not just "well here is how they work in the real world so thats that"
To be honest I would probably recomend that stun weapons/less than lethal weapons be an entire article in and of themselves as there is a lot of ground to cover on the subject and it is pretty megaversal to boot.

I wasn't suggesting the entire HU rules system be changed, warped, distorted or scrapped. I was merely offering insight into a topic that most others do not have. Use that information as you will.

ohh thank you both so much for some good insight on less lethal weaponry, this is most helpful! Thank you both!

after reading the thread my thought is it might make sense to turn physical training into ~3 or 4 sub types I mean they are all focuses on being the best physical specimen you can be, but to use an example,
I consider batman to be a physical training/super sluth/rich char.
like the joke in justice league where flash asks Bruce what his super power is, and he says "I'm rich"

with that said at the moment i'm wondering about:
physical training the brick/ incredible bulk. this person is all about fitness and toughness they weight lift, and run marathons on a regular basis they could be training for the Olympics or have done it want to do it, they could also be professional athletes.

physical training weapons specialist this person could be a survival nut, but they are also pretty ripped, not as extreme as the brick (more balanced physical package, but more focus on weapons /wp's so they have and or use more gear

physical training skill monger, they still start out really robust they are a physical training type, but then they have a lot more choices in their skills

one thing I would suggest is that the physical training should be allowed to have or have access to a few minor supers, but I would have them all be things like:
healing factor, super senses, sight smell, hearing etc., ex physical attributes (or maybe slightly watered down versions) the idea being these people are sort of normal, but they pushed it to another level.

to give another example kick ass and hit girl from the movie could qualify, although you could argue hit girl falls into another category.

guardiandashi wrote:after reading the thread my thought is it might make sense to turn physical training into ~3 or 4 sub types I mean they are all focuses on being the best physical specimen you can be, but to use an example,
I consider batman to be a physical training/super sluth/rich char.
like the joke in justice league where flash asks Bruce what his super power is, and he says "I'm rich"

with that said at the moment i'm wondering about:
physical training the brick/ incredible bulk. this person is all about fitness and toughness they weight lift, and run marathons on a regular basis they could be training for the Olympics or have done it want to do it, they could also be professional athletes.

physical training weapons specialist this person could be a survival nut, but they are also pretty ripped, not as extreme as the brick (more balanced physical package, but more focus on weapons /wp's so they have and or use more gear

physical training skill monger, they still start out really robust they are a physical training type, but then they have a lot more choices in their skills

one thing I would suggest is that the physical training should be allowed to have or have access to a few minor supers, but I would have them all be things like:
healing factor, super senses, sight smell, hearing etc., ex physical attributes (or maybe slightly watered down versions) the idea being these people are sort of normal, but they pushed it to another level.

to give another example kick ass and hit girl from the movie could qualify, although you could argue hit girl falls into another category.

I get why the Ancient Master could have a few minor supers, due to his chi training, but how would the Phys Training char do that without stealing his kool-aid?

also, my thought is that Batman is all the special training categories, he's a stage mage, a secret operative, he's a super sleuth, he's a manhunter...

My take is that Physical Training should represent the peak of what is humanly possible. That means that they can't be inhuman.
No Chi/Magic/Psionics/Symbiotes/Bionics/Mutations/Whatever.
Super powers are pretty clearly not human in that they are removable via super powers, can be shut down by devices et multiple cetera.

If I were to give a category of PT access to anything 'super' I would go to Ninjas and Super Spies and take a look at stuff like Body Hardening or Techniques. Stuff that is the result of....physical training. And even there I would be leery of the most powerful of those.

eliakon wrote:My take is that Physical Training should represent the peak of what is humanly possible. That means that they can't be inhuman.
No Chi/Magic/Psionics/Symbiotes/Bionics/Mutations/Whatever.
Super powers are pretty clearly not human in that they are removable via super powers, can be shut down by devices et multiple cetera.

I think Chi is perfectly acceptable, in fact that's the new style of PT hero, the Chi master. Mostly it draws from Ninjas and Superspies, with a little more under the hood.

zerombr wrote:

eliakon wrote:My take is that Physical Training should represent the peak of what is humanly possible. That means that they can't be inhuman.
No Chi/Magic/Psionics/Symbiotes/Bionics/Mutations/Whatever.
Super powers are pretty clearly not human in that they are removable via super powers, can be shut down by devices et multiple cetera.

I think Chi is perfectly acceptable, in fact that's the new style of PT hero, the Chi master. Mostly it draws from Ninjas and Superspies, with a little more under the hood.

I will wait and see.
But I would be leery that it is treading on the Ancient Masters turf. Right now Chi is the Ancient Masters 'gimmick' or 'schick'. If we give that to other power categories... then all that sets the AM apart is that they get the privilege of starting out at a higher level and thus not being able to advance as fast (often not at all in many games).
I would really prefer to see any Chi adepts be saved for the rework of the Ancient Master honestly since otherwise it becomes an issue of what do the AMs get then to make them special again?

eliakon wrote:I will wait and see.
But I would be leery that it is treading on the Ancient Masters turf. Right now Chi is the Ancient Masters 'gimmick' or 'schick'. If we give that to other power categories... then all that sets the AM apart is that they get the privilege of starting out at a higher level and thus not being able to advance as fast (often not at all in many games).
I would really prefer to see any Chi adepts be saved for the rework of the Ancient Master honestly since otherwise it becomes an issue of what do the AMs get then to make them special again?

That's fair, and I totally get the reasoning. I suppose I could remove it and just add that to the Ancient Master as it stands. I think you sold me on that.

eliakon wrote:

zerombr wrote:

eliakon wrote:My take is that Physical Training should represent the peak of what is humanly possible. That means that they can't be inhuman.
No Chi/Magic/Psionics/Symbiotes/Bionics/Mutations/Whatever.
Super powers are pretty clearly not human in that they are removable via super powers, can be shut down by devices et multiple cetera.

I think Chi is perfectly acceptable, in fact that's the new style of PT hero, the Chi master. Mostly it draws from Ninjas and Superspies, with a little more under the hood.

I will wait and see.
But I would be leery that it is treading on the Ancient Masters turf. Right now Chi is the Ancient Masters 'gimmick' or 'schick'. If we give that to other power categories... then all that sets the AM apart is that they get the privilege of starting out at a higher level and thus not being able to advance as fast (often not at all in many games).
I would really prefer to see any Chi adepts be saved for the rework of the Ancient Master honestly since otherwise it becomes an issue of what do the AMs get then to make them special again?

Agreed. The PT should not have psi, or chi, or super powers. They should simply be the pinnacle of human fitness. If you give them chi abilities it reduces both of the PT and AM.

zerombr wrote:

eliakon wrote:I will wait and see.
But I would be leery that it is treading on the Ancient Masters turf. Right now Chi is the Ancient Masters 'gimmick' or 'schick'. If we give that to other power categories... then all that sets the AM apart is that they get the privilege of starting out at a higher level and thus not being able to advance as fast (often not at all in many games).
I would really prefer to see any Chi adepts be saved for the rework of the Ancient Master honestly since otherwise it becomes an issue of what do the AMs get then to make them special again?

That's fair, and I totally get the reasoning. I suppose I could remove it and just add that to the Ancient Master as it stands. I think you sold me on that.

Glad to hear that. I really like your Stage Magician and the Super Sleuth (it was the first thing I read when my Rifters arrived Saturday and I really liked it) but both of them just took what made those characters special and amplified it. Adding chi abilities, or even super powers or psi, changes the character.

Again great work on the Super Sleuth.