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Hi I've not really played in pf and have some questions. My first question is what was first edition like? I was reading the description about one of the books and it said conversion necessary, what is it referring to? My next question is what are books 4 and 5? And finally is pf more like dungeons and dragons or wow? What I mean by that is d&d is straight fantasy, whereas wow has gnomes with gadgets.

Books 4 and 5 are about the wolfen, a race of manwolves that live in the north. Adventures in the Northern Wilderness and Further Adventures in the Northern Wilderness (as well as Northern Hinterlands and somewhat Byzantium) help flesh out what life is like in the frozen north for these noble creatues.

First Ed is middle earthish like rather than WoWish, as in classic high fantasy. I have played a quite a few rpg's over the years but I always come back to palladium (or don't stop) as I like the setting the most.
Like others it has its ups and downs but is fun to play.

Well, as for the conversion there were some rule changes. It's not a big issue since the 1st edition books have all been converted, with the exception of the Yin-Sloth Jungles. There are several threads on the topic that you can search and read. It's been discussed rather thoroughly.

Palladium's Fantasy setting is high fantasy. There is no combustion, no steam power, no black powder.

-Vek
"Do not ask about the Old Kingdom books."

Veknironth wrote:Well, as for the conversion there were some rule changes. It's not a big issue since the 1st edition books have all been converted, with the exception of the Yin-Sloth Jungles. There are several threads on the topic that you can search and read. It's been discussed rather thoroughly.

Palladium's Fantasy setting is high fantasy. There is no combustion, no steam power, no black powder.

-Vek
"Do not ask about the Old Kingdom books."

Well now I have to ask about the old kingdom books.

They came out in 1995! Yin-Sloth said so!

Mark Hall wrote:They came out in 1995! Yin-Sloth said so!

Um. Ok. What am I missing?

The joke that if palladium say they are going to release something you use the following formula
time until release is

(how many years until release)x(2years)+(how many years until the universe dies)=time of release.

Well, the manuscript for the Old Kingdoms books was submitted something like 20 years ago. It has been coming soon for all that time. It's sort of a white whale.

-Vel
"RIP Randi Cartier."

Thom001 wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:They came out in 1995! Yin-Sloth said so!

Um. Ok. What am I missing?

I was teasing another poster about this more than 10 years ago. He wanted Old Kingdom... I pointed to Yin-Sloth Jungles, which said they were coming out in 1995.

Mark Hall wrote:

Thom001 wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:They came out in 1995! Yin-Sloth said so!

Um. Ok. What am I missing?

I was teasing another poster about this more than 10 years ago. He wanted Old Kingdom... I pointed to Yin-Sloth Jungles, which said they were coming out in 1995.

Ah, ok. Now I understand. On a totally different topic but I didn't want to make a new thread, what would happen in palladium fantasy if say a rifle or other piece of modern technology was found? How would it be handled in a setting like this? I was just reading about nexus leading to other worlds.

Thom001 wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:

Thom001 wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:They came out in 1995! Yin-Sloth said so!

Um. Ok. What am I missing?

I was teasing another poster about this more than 10 years ago. He wanted Old Kingdom... I pointed to Yin-Sloth Jungles, which said they were coming out in 1995.

Ah, ok. Now I understand. On a totally different topic but I didn't want to make a new thread, what would happen in palladium fantasy if say a rifle or other piece of modern technology was found? How would it be handled in a setting like this? I was just reading about nexus leading to other worlds.

Guns apparently are something that appears enough that their is a W.P. Modern for the setting. They are presumably rare imports, alchemical experiments and the like.

As for reactions? It would depend. Much of the reaction would be who found it, if it was replicateable or not, and what the effect on the ruling classes it has.
A unique item is no different than a magic item. A reproduceable item though...
Those sorts of things can swiftly chance whole societies. The powers that be are not going to want to just sit around and let something that threatens the status quo get out...
and contrary to the sayings you can put the discovery genie back in the jar. If your ruthless enough and willing to kill or silence everyone who knows about it.

and it would depend if it was loaded or not. An empty gun would just be a curiosity unless it was seen in use.

Generally, a firearm isn't too different from a weird magic item from a Palladium standpoint. It shoots a long way, acts weird, and then runs out of ammo and is useless forever. Something like the Phase World Colonial Rifle (DB3, page 60) would be interesting, as it recharges itself from sunlight, and so could be used for a long time, but, at the end of the day, it's a weird magic wand.

Now, if you start talking about a Guardians of the Flame style situation, where people with the know-how to build firearms got some space to establish themselves, you might have a more interesting situation, but a singular artifact without a means of reloading? A curiosity, from "that's neat" to "the Gods must be crazy".

Mark Hall wrote:Generally, a firearm isn't too different from a weird magic item from a Palladium standpoint. It shoots a long way, acts weird, and then runs out of ammo and is useless forever. Something like the Phase World Colonial Rifle (DB3, page 60) would be interesting, as it recharges itself from sunlight, and so could be used for a long time, but, at the end of the day, it's a weird magic wand.

Now, if you start talking about a Guardians of the Flame style situation, where people with the know-how to build firearms got some space to establish themselves, you might have a more interesting situation, but a singular artifact without a means of reloading? A curiosity, from "that's neat" to "the Gods must be crazy".

Thats more what I was leaning toward. The ability to make some more guns and ammo, though maybe not the skills to be crack shots with them and how that would affect things of that region.

Check out Rifter #10. Greg Diaczyk (Freelancer) offers his thoughts and ideas for technology, i.e. the Tinker O.C.C., a Fantasy scientist who creates explosives. machines,
and gadgets.

I side tracked myself, but is there a difference between 1st ed and 2nd ed as far as things left out of the new one? I ask because I recently got my hands on a bts 1st ed and there is a complete game there, unlike bts 2nd ed which is missing....some things.

1st ed had more critters and an adventure. Doesn't have martial art paladins, has a hth for most occ's, isn't quite as imbalanced. No sdc for people either.
2nd ed is missing some of the critters but has extra magic items and drugs and no adventure, and only 3 hth styles. hth basic, which is only taken if you literally cant take higher. hth expert which is what most wizards (all pc wizards mind you) and about half the fighters take, and hth martial arts, so your paladin can do backflips and forward rolls and cartwheeling axe kicks. People also have sdc on top of HP, which is supposed to represent bruising or something like that, so when someone hits you in the face with an sledgehammer, you might get a black eye, and a bit of puffiness.

Personal SDC was, IMO, handled badly, partially because HP continued to increase with level. HP increasing with level was supposed to represent that you got better at fighting... at minimizing damage taken from otherwise deadly attacks. When you include personal SDC in the mix, however, that should be what increases by level, since that's explicitly what it is... the ability to take a non-critical blow in a way that doesn't affect you as much.

And, while I'm not as huge of a fan of the 1st edition hand to hand styles as some are (half of them are just slightly level-shifted versions of the other half, or with slightly smaller bonuses), the 2e system which says "the best fighters are all capable of ninja-kicks or assassination" has its own raft of problems.

To Thom's question, though, when considering only the 1st book, the 2nd edition book is a complete game... but it does have some obvious holes that the 1st edition book did not. The 1st edition book is relatively limited in monsters... it has fiends and PC-playable races, but it doesn't have much else. To get that, you need 2 additional books (Monsters & Animals and Dragons & Gods); the first contains monsters and normal animals (like the Knight and Palladin's warhorse). The second has the elementals which are such a big part of the Warlock class (you can play an OK priest without Dragons and Gods; the GM doesn't need to paper over much more than spell selection). These are not necessarily crippling flaws in the main book, but they are things that might shoulda been there.

Thom001 wrote:Hi I've not really played in pf and have some questions. My first question is what was first edition like? I was reading the description about one of the books and it said conversion necessary, what is it referring to? My next question is what are books 4 and 5? And finally is pf more like dungeons and dragons or wow? What I mean by that is d&d is straight fantasy, whereas wow has gnomes with gadgets.

If D&D is straight fantasy then what is this? Even the Dungeon masters manual 1e had info for lasers from Gamma World and Firearms from Boot Hill. D&D or rather AD&D was always high fantasy and didn't restrict said concepts but it also didn't promote it.

To answer your question though. PFRPG is like AD&D there are something in some books that allow some tech or have tinker gnomes (Rifter article IIRC) but it doesn't come right out and advertise it.

Mark Hall wrote:To Thom's question, though, when considering only the 1st book, the 2nd edition book is a complete game... but it does have some obvious holes that the 1st edition book did not. The 1st edition book is relatively limited in monsters... it has fiends and PC-playable races, but it doesn't have much else. To get that, you need 2 additional books (Monsters & Animals and Dragons & Gods); the first contains monsters and normal animals (like the Knight and Palladin's warhorse). The second has the elementals which are such a big part of the Warlock class (you can play an OK priest without Dragons and Gods; the GM doesn't need to paper over much more than spell selection). These are not necessarily crippling flaws in the main book, but they are things that might shoulda been there.

You have it the wrong way around, Its the first ed book that was more complete and had more than demons and the races and the second ed needed monsters and animals and dragons and gods. First ed also has animals from bears to horses to giant cave spiders and a small table of whether they would attack or not, also faeries, elementals and supernatural creatures like the sphinx and the winged horse, elementals and gods. It also had an adventure too.

kiralon wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:To Thom's question, though, when considering only the 1st book, the 2nd edition book is a complete game... but it does have some obvious holes that the 1st edition book did not. The 1st edition book is relatively limited in monsters... it has fiends and PC-playable races, but it doesn't have much else. To get that, you need 2 additional books (Monsters & Animals and Dragons & Gods); the first contains monsters and normal animals (like the Knight and Palladin's warhorse). The second has the elementals which are such a big part of the Warlock class (you can play an OK priest without Dragons and Gods; the GM doesn't need to paper over much more than spell selection). These are not necessarily crippling flaws in the main book, but they are things that might shoulda been there.

You have it the wrong way around, Its the first ed book that was more complete and had more than demons and the races and the second ed needed monsters and animals and dragons and gods. First ed also has animals from bears to horses to giant cave spiders and a small table of whether they would attack or not, also faeries, elementals and supernatural creatures like the sphinx and the winged horse, elementals and gods. It also had an adventure too.

Ah, wrote 1st when I meant second, where highlighted. Got distracted.

And 1st ed Vampires were much cooler, more classical. Ah, Tombs of Gerseidi

Zer0 Kay wrote:And 1st ed Vampires were much cooler, more classical. Ah, Tombs of Gerseidi

One thing I like about Vald Tegor as a weird hybrid Vampire Intelligence is that it avoids a lot of the problems that crop up from Rifts-style vampires. There is only one God of Vampirism in Palladium Fantasy. His dominion includes all Vampires. That some also serve other deities does not negate the influence he has over them, or that their predations still feed him.

and I like that he will actually help people/priests take out Vamps that don't follow him. I have had him, though an agent, point out various vampires in different places that weren't 'courteous' enough to him.

kiralon wrote:and I like that he will actually help people/priests take out Vamps that don't follow him. I have had him, though an agent, point out various vampires in different places that weren't 'courteous' enough to him.

He's really a fantastic take on the God of Vampires. Presenting himself as the "Protector" against vampires, while mostly their shepherd... thinning the herd to ensure that the rest remain healthy and strong.

Sounds like I need to get a copy of pf 1st edition as well as 2nd ed.

Thom001 wrote:Sounds like I need to get a copy of pf 1st edition as well as 2nd ed.

This is what I would recommend as someone who just recently got back into PF after not touching it for over 15 years. Get 2nd main, Dragons and Gods, and Monsters and Animals. While 2nd has a few holes that 1st didnt have, they are pretty obvious and easy to handle. Dragons and Gods will aid tremendously with any religious based pcs. Monsters and Animals to me is just a must have no matter if you run 1st or 2nd. The rest of the source books just add more flavor.

I will add, regarding Dragons and Gods... it's a lot more complete than what's in the 1e PF book. That may sound painfully obvious, but it is really true, providing context and background to the deities that you really miss in just their capsule descriptions from 1e.

Mark Hall wrote:I will add, regarding Dragons and Gods... it's a lot more complete than what's in the 1e PF book. That may sound painfully obvious, but it is really true, providing context and background to the deities that you really miss in just their capsule descriptions from 1e.

I agree completely. Dragons and Gods, from a deity standpoint, is one of the most complete and detailed books for any system. I originally was not going to purchase it because I usually do not incorporate a lot of religious aspects into my games, but after skimming through it, decided it was a must have. It opened up a lot of new storytelling avenues I closed myself off from.

kennethk wrote:I agree completely. Dragons and Gods, from a deity standpoint, is one of the most complete and detailed books for any system.

Now that statement I don't agree with. It's a pale shadow of the Faiths and Avatars series for AD&D 2nd edition, the Greyhawk books in that style, or Faiths and Pantheons, the 3e version. The 1e PF book is about on par with the old Deities and Demigods; 2e D&G is not much more complete than AD&D's 2e Legends and Lore... it's missing a lot of useful information, and not well organized, spending a lot of time on the fighting stats of literal deities, and far less on how those impact player character priests.

I did say one, not the most. Several of the early AD&D entries has Dragons and Gods beat easily. But with a market with so many resources available when it comes to deities, I still say Dragons and Gods is one of the most complete and detailed.

Thom001 wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:Generally, a firearm isn't too different from a weird magic item from a Palladium standpoint. It shoots a long way, acts weird, and then runs out of ammo and is useless forever. Something like the Phase World Colonial Rifle (DB3, page 60) would be interesting, as it recharges itself from sunlight, and so could be used for a long time, but, at the end of the day, it's a weird magic wand.

Now, if you start talking about a Guardians of the Flame style situation, where people with the know-how to build firearms got some space to establish themselves, you might have a more interesting situation, but a singular artifact without a means of reloading? A curiosity, from "that's neat" to "the Gods must be crazy".

Thats more what I was leaning toward. The ability to make some more guns and ammo, though maybe not the skills to be crack shots with them and how that would affect things of that region.

Also, depends on the kind of firearms being introduced to Palladium (or any other fantasy world for that matter). Melee weapons, bows and crossbows were still very much in use in our own world alongside guns and canons between 1300s-1800s.

The introduction of cartridges, percussion caps and machine guns in the decades leading to the mid-19th century, considerably improving reloading times, reliability and rapid-firing capacity, were what made firearms into the actual game-changer we usually associate with them. Not to mention the more advanced it is, the most intricate and complex will be to create the conditions necessary for their mass production, even for those with the technical know-how.

Contraband through semi-stable portals or rifts might be the easier road for many depending on circunstances, what in itself opens room for interesting plots and adventures. Just imagine the possibilities, for the sake of example, of an Old Kingdom or Western Empire's Transdimensional Customs Agency, doing missions to combat illegal trade in rift-imported drugs, immigrants, wildlife, strange itens, crime syndicates, cults or secret societies involved with it and so on.

Well. regarding dieties, I liked that the spells you could learn as a priest depended on what the Deity knew. I'd prefer a wider array of abilities derived from various deities but it was better than all priests can learn the same spells whether their god knows them.

-Vek
"I'd also enjoy more about how the various religions act and interact, atheist that I am."

Veknironth wrote:Well. regarding dieties, I liked that the spells you could learn as a priest depended on what the Deity knew. I'd prefer a wider array of abilities derived from various deities but it was better than all priests can learn the same spells whether their god knows them.

-Vek
"I'd also enjoy more about how the various religions act and interact, atheist that I am."

You can play a priest of a pantheon rather than a particular god and get a wider array of spells.