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Sword and Bord was the most common fighting technique until the advent of gunpower. Where are the rules for them?

I do not see a single listing of them in my Palladium Fantasy book. I think that it is a 1st ed version.

I thought I had downloaded an errata on them but I can't seem to find it now...

Wait, here it is: http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=235%3Ashield-sdc&catid=58&Itemid=200

For the Palladium RPG, the S.D.C. of shields are as follows:

Small Large
Wood 13 25
Leather 9 20
Wood & Leather 21 35
Iron 30 55
Characters with W.P. Shield get +1 to parry at levels 1,3,6,9,12, and 15. A shield can be used in one hand and a weapon in the other. +1 to strike with shield (1D4 damage) at levels 4,8, and 12. There are no bonuses to strike when thrown.

Interesting, I thought that it would be closer to the block mechanic in the old Robotech RPG I own.

Well if you recall your 1E RT then, shields used the parry mechanic in Bk4 (ASC mecha, body armor shields) and Bk5/RTII (Saber Cyclone CADS-1). The main difference between 1E RT and PF is that 1E RT used a straight unmodified die roll and PF doesn't (along with Rifts and 2E RT).

Remember to take W.P. Paired(sword and shield) so you can use them together.

Todd Freyburger wrote:Sword and Bord was the most common fighting technique until the advent of gunpower. Where are the rules for them?

I do not see a single listing of them in my Palladium Fantasy book. I think that it is a 1st ed version.

No, actually, using a spear was far more common, outside of small bits of history.

Sir_Spirit wrote:Remember to take W.P. Paired(sword and shield) so you can use them together.

You don't have to, the wp shield specifically states that you can use them together.

Palladium shield rules are abyssmal. With the existence of the Fencing skill (in a few other games), it's actually easier to parry with the sword you are using than the small door you keep strapped to your arm. A monk blocks arrows better with a stick than someone who has covered half their body with a mobile wall.

Sadly, I can't remember when I've seen a character past lvl 1 or 2 use a shield.

Weapon proficiencies for knives, blunt weapons, forked weapons, and nets all offer about the same defensive bonuses as W.P. Shield, and most of them offer significant advantages over a shield (damage, entangling, throwing, etc).

Under rules as written, the shield is an inferior choice to nearly any other 1-handed weapon when using paired weapons. The only advantage I see is when using a 1-hander with poor defensive bonuses, like an axe.

Mark Hall wrote:Palladium shield rules are abyssmal. With the existence of the Fencing skill (in a few other games), it's actually easier to parry with the sword you are using than the small door you keep strapped to your arm. A monk blocks arrows better with a stick than someone who has covered half their body with a mobile wall.

If half your body is covered with a mobile wall, then you have cover.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:Palladium shield rules are abyssmal. With the existence of the Fencing skill (in a few other games), it's actually easier to parry with the sword you are using than the small door you keep strapped to your arm. A monk blocks arrows better with a stick than someone who has covered half their body with a mobile wall.

If half your body is covered with a mobile wall, then you have cover.

And what does cover do for you in Palladium?

Mark Hall wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:Palladium shield rules are abyssmal. With the existence of the Fencing skill (in a few other games), it's actually easier to parry with the sword you are using than the small door you keep strapped to your arm. A monk blocks arrows better with a stick than someone who has covered half their body with a mobile wall.

If half your body is covered with a mobile wall, then you have cover.

And what does cover do for you in Palladium?

Don't know off the top of my head, but IIRC, the rules for cover can be found in the RUE.

Mark Hall wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:Palladium shield rules are abyssmal. With the existence of the Fencing skill (in a few other games), it's actually easier to parry with the sword you are using than the small door you keep strapped to your arm. A monk blocks arrows better with a stick than someone who has covered half their body with a mobile wall.

If half your body is covered with a mobile wall, then you have cover.

And what does cover do for you in Palladium?

Requires a Called Shot to bypass, same as in town.

(A GM could also logically assign an AR to bypass, etc.)

A couple of the shield forums people have said that they added a +? depending on shield size. What if instead shield size denotes a +? to AR....So you will get your WP bonus to parry should they pass your AR. I know house rules are house rules, just shields have played such a large roll throughout history in combat that I would love to figure a way to make them something a character would desire. Paired Sword and Board I think should be as viable as sword and sword
I have been reading as many of the shield discussion's as possible. A compromise I think would be to apply a parry bonus plus and AR bonus.

For an example I will go for full plate AR 17 and a kite shield being a medium size shield so an AR bonus of +2 for a total of AR 19.....now I know that sounds high but you can already get that high just with in game source material....Obviously this would only apply to attacks coming from a field of vision. The parry bonus from the shield could in theory be from the opponent passing your AR(Guard) and now you are reacting, a successful parry could be half damage an unsuccessful parry would be full damage. The way I see it gives a balance. From Greeks to Romans and beyond a shield wall was something to be feared as it severely limited an opponents ability to reach their target/targets.

So if you want to use cover rules, then anyone attacking you from a side you can use your shield, has essentially aim to hit you for an action, while you can hack at them (assuming they have no shield), then gets to make their strike on their next action (assuming you didn't knock them down while they prepared their attack...which I would do).

it also means simultaneous attacks would probably hit shields first, since you can't use those for called shots.

this all assumes RUE rules apply to PF.

Alrik Vas wrote:So if you want to use cover rules, then anyone attacking you from a side you can use your shield, has essentially aim to hit you for an action, while you can hack at them (assuming they have no shield), then gets to make their strike on their next action (assuming you didn't knock them down while they prepared their attack...which I would do).

it also means simultaneous attacks would probably hit shields first, since you can't use those for called shots.

this all assumes RUE rules apply to PF.

Doesn't have to be RUE rules.
PFRPG does have Called Shots to hit specific body parts, and it's just common sense and physics that if there is a shield, wall, or other solid object covering a person's torso, that your sword (etc) can't just ignore that obstacle.

Now, it could reasonably be ruled that if the attacker isn't picky about which non-torso body part he hits, that an AR could be assigned instead, but the default for choosing to hit a body part other than the torso is a Called Shot.

I am going to rule in my game that a shield gives you a +3/6 bonus to parry without the WP Shield. Of course this stacks with WP shield.



The other thing that my players will like in my ATB mutants of Avalon game it that a shield can be use to "parry" incoming missile fire. Shields will "parry" bullets like a roll with punch instead of a full parry unless the shield is full metal.

Alrik Vas wrote:So if you want to use cover rules, then anyone attacking you from a side you can use your shield, has essentially aim to hit you for an action, while you can hack at them (assuming they have no shield), then gets to make their strike on their next action (assuming you didn't knock them down while they prepared their attack...which I would do).

it also means simultaneous attacks would probably hit shields first, since you can't use those for called shots.

this all assumes RUE rules apply to PF.

I guess in a sense, yes. I think what I am aiming to figure out is how you create that meat shield, similar to MMORPG's, a tank essentially who as he gains better arms and armor can be a almost one man shied wall again. One on one it definitely would end up giving the tank a longer chance of living(and potentially advantage), but again the heavier the armor the less mobility they already have(according to game rules). In an open area the shield would still only help him against one opponent that he faced, the second one I would hope attempt to flank in which case his shield AR would not kick in, just a chance at a parry as he would have to bring it to bear(if he even knew the attack was coming). In a corridor it would give the defender the better position as they could only attack the front, but again that seems logical.

Also there could be a simple rule that should the shield user say counter attack with his weapon arm that he has essentially opened his defense(loses the shield AR bonus), the attacker would have an opportunity to attack. The shield user would have to parry the attack to get the shield back into place.

I can see maybe initially that it may seem unfair to the person who trained in paired axes for example but that is where targeting the shield specifically comes in or the arm holding the shield. But again I reiterate that they both choose different paths. One went in essence for more damage per melee(1apm with paired 2attacks per melee action) the other went for higher defense or damage absorption forcing the attacker to breach his defenses. That is why the AR boost for the shield user.

Lastly forgive me I have a tendency to repeat myself when I type, hell when I talk, trying to get an idea across.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Doesn't have to be RUE rules.
PFRPG does have Called Shots to hit specific body parts, and it's just common sense and physics that if there is a shield, wall, or other solid object covering a person's torso, that your sword (etc) can't just ignore that obstacle.

Now, it could reasonably be ruled that if the attacker isn't picky about which non-torso body part he hits, that an AR could be assigned instead, but the default for choosing to hit a body part other than the torso is a Called Shot.

I don't disagree with your reply, but I wasn't specifically talking about that. I was mostly on the idea that a called shot takes two actions in RUE, and I haven't read the latest version of PFRPG to know whether or not that was included there a well. That's all.

Alrik Vas wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Doesn't have to be RUE rules.
PFRPG does have Called Shots to hit specific body parts, and it's just common sense and physics that if there is a shield, wall, or other solid object covering a person's torso, that your sword (etc) can't just ignore that obstacle.

Now, it could reasonably be ruled that if the attacker isn't picky about which non-torso body part he hits, that an AR could be assigned instead, but the default for choosing to hit a body part other than the torso is a Called Shot.

I don't disagree with your reply, but I wasn't specifically talking about that. I was mostly on the idea that a called shot takes two actions in RUE, and I haven't read the latest version of PFRPG to know whether or not that was included there a well. That's all.

Yeah, I don't think it's clear whether or not PFRPG Called Shots are officially supposed to be updated, or if they still use the original rules.
Ah, Palladium!

There is some text about shields int he equipment section of HU:AU.