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Question: If one has the paired Weapons skill and uses, say, 2 Dead man railguns vs. a volley of misses, do you then get a doubled chance to detonate the volley, or can you fire one burst vs. the missiles and a second burst vs. the enemy firing the missiles, or would you only be able to make a single attack vs. the missiles and a separate attack roll vs. the enemy?
Assume the required strength to wield such weapons as paired weapons, either cybernetic or robotic P.S..

Paired weapons means to be able to fight with two melee weapons at one time. This is what the 2nd to last sentence in the Paired weapons WP says in RUE.

Tagged into the last sentence in the WP paired text (in RUE,…. like the staff stuck the relevant text where it would be looked for, but does not have anything to do with the WP it is in…..) it gives the to strike penalties for using two modern weapons at the same time. -2 for the regular hand and -6 for the off hand.

As a GM I would limit this by ruling that the two targets have to be within the char's line of sight/where they are looking.

Now to answer the question directly…
any char can try to use two modern weapons at one time, so long as all the penalties get added into the rolls.

How I would rule this….
….to shoot at two different targets the char would need to have WP Paired. Otherwise the char would only be able to shoot at one target with both modern weapons.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Paired weapons means to be able to fight with two melee weapons at one time. This is what the 2nd to last sentence in the Paired weapons WP says in RUE.

Tagged into the last sentence in the WP paired text (in RUE,…. like the staff stuck the relevant text where it would be looked for, but does not have anything to do with the WP it is in…..) it gives the to strike penalties for using two modern weapons at the same time. -2 for the regular hand and -6 for the off hand.

As a GM I would limit this by ruling that the two targets have to be within the char's line of sight/where they are looking.

Now to answer the question directly…
any char can try to use two modern weapons at one time, so long as all the penalties get added into the rolls.

How I would rule this….
….to shoot at two different targets the char would need to have WP Paired. Otherwise the char would only be able to shoot at one target with both modern weapons.

So as long as I apply the correct penalties and the opposing char is in visual range I can attempt to fire upon the missiles as well as fire upon the enemy char.
Now what about firing BOTH weapons at an oncoming missile volley; Would that equate to a doubled percentage chance to detonate the volley, or just the same percentage chance for both weapons?

Roll the fratricide % once for each missile, of 2, killed would be the way I would do it. Since you are making two strike rolls to hit with each.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Roll the fratricide % once for each missile, of 2, killed would be the way I would do it. Since you are making two strike rolls to hit with each.

Okay. Thanks for the thoughts!

keir451 wrote:Question: If one has the paired Weapons skill and uses, say, 2 Dead man railguns vs. a volley of misses, do you then get a doubled chance to detonate the volley, or can you fire one burst vs. the missiles and a second burst vs. the enemy firing the missiles, or would you only be able to make a single attack vs. the missiles and a separate attack roll vs. the enemy?
Assume the required strength to wield such weapons as paired weapons, either cybernetic or robotic P.S..

Without getting into the Paired Weapons w/modern weapons issue (since there are some classes that are built upon this ability), and employing standard combat modifiers (bonus/penalties).

2 guns vs missile volley: that depends. I'd give a number of chances for detonating the volley equal to the number of attack rolls made to attempt to detonate the volley. So if you roll 1 strike roll earns 1 chance roll, or 2 sucessful strike rolls (at the volley) earns 2 chance rolls.

2 guns vs volley/launcher: as you can split attacks using Paired Weapons I would allow it as the normal split attack option.

Its also important to remember that at the speeds missiles travel you may not have time to shoot them down depending on when they are launched OR you might have enough time for a second attempt. But that is based on the distance and the particular missile.

actually the only classes that are built around using paired modern weapons are the rifts Gunslingers, which receive a special "Paired Weapons: Revolvers and Pistols" skill with their OCC. which has completely different text and rules than the WP: Paired skill.

glitterboy2098 wrote:actually the only classes that are built around using paired modern weapons are the rifts Gunslingers, which receive a special "Paired Weapons: Revolvers and Pistols" skill with their OCC. which has completely different text and rules than the WP: Paired skill.

You're forgetting that HtH Commando grants paired weapons at first level. So in this specific instance we have a CS Spec. Forces using paired Deadman railguns to fire at a volley of missiles, he rolls a single attack, but then does he roll percentiles twice per gun for detonating the volley or does he roll once with an expanded chance due to two weapons firing at the volley?

glitterboy2098 wrote:actually the only classes that are built around using paired modern weapons are the rifts Gunslingers, which receive a special "Paired Weapons: Revolvers and Pistols" skill with their OCC. which has completely different text and rules than the WP: Paired skill.

Granted, and I don't argue against this.

However it is possible for a relative aspect to be at play if the Character is large enough to treat the specific "two handed weapon" as a "single handed weapon". Probably a high specialized situation I admit. Even w/o that there is also the Trickshooting #1 ability, IF one spends the skill slots for it.

WP: Paired doesn't prevent one from using paired modern weapons since it notes you take penalties.

keir451 wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:actually the only classes that are built around using paired modern weapons are the rifts Gunslingers, which receive a special "Paired Weapons: Revolvers and Pistols" skill with their OCC. which has completely different text and rules than the WP: Paired skill.

You're forgetting that HtH Commando grants paired weapons at first level. So in this specific instance we have a CS Spec. Forces using paired Deadman railguns to fire at a volley of missiles, he rolls a single attack, but then does he roll percentiles twice per gun for detonating the volley or does he roll once with an expanded chance due to two weapons firing at the volley?

Having the PW WP or PW from a h2h has no relevance to the discussion except to point out that they don't apply to modern weapons as per the the RAW. To have paired modern weapons the char has to have a class ability.

ShadowLogan wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:actually the only classes that are built around using paired modern weapons are the rifts Gunslingers, which receive a special "Paired Weapons: Revolvers and Pistols" skill with their OCC. which has completely different text and rules than the WP: Paired skill.

Granted, and I don't argue against this.

However it is possible for a relative aspect to be at play if the Character is large enough to treat the specific "two handed weapon" as a "single handed weapon". Probably a high specialized situation I admit. Even w/o that there is also the Trickshooting #1 ability, IF one spends the skill slots for it.

WP: Paired doesn't prevent one from using paired modern weapons since it notes you take penalties.

In this instance I'm using a CS Spec Forces char wearing power armor, so he's got the requisite strength to use each weapon separately one-handed.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

keir451 wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:actually the only classes that are built around using paired modern weapons are the rifts Gunslingers, which receive a special "Paired Weapons: Revolvers and Pistols" skill with their OCC. which has completely different text and rules than the WP: Paired skill.

You're forgetting that HtH Commando grants paired weapons at first level. So in this specific instance we have a CS Spec. Forces using paired Deadman railguns to fire at a volley of missiles, he rolls a single attack, but then does he roll percentiles twice per gun for detonating the volley or does he roll once with an expanded chance due to two weapons firing at the volley?

Having the PW WP or PW from a h2h has no relevance to the discussion except to point out that they don't apply to modern weapons as per the the RAW. To have paired modern weapons the char has to have a class ability.

In this instance the char in question has W.P. Paired as well as HtH Commando, wears Power Armor, so he has the robotic strength needed to use the weapons in each hand. There's no real description in the HtH version so I treat it the same as having W.P. Paired.

keir451 wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:actually the only classes that are built around using paired modern weapons are the rifts Gunslingers, which receive a special "Paired Weapons: Revolvers and Pistols" skill with their OCC. which has completely different text and rules than the WP: Paired skill.

Granted, and I don't argue against this.

However it is possible for a relative aspect to be at play if the Character is large enough to treat the specific "two handed weapon" as a "single handed weapon". Probably a high specialized situation I admit. Even w/o that there is also the Trickshooting #1 ability, IF one spends the skill slots for it.

WP: Paired doesn't prevent one from using paired modern weapons since it notes you take penalties.

In this instance I'm using a CS Spec Forces char wearing power armor, so he's got the requisite strength to use each weapon separately one-handed.

The pre-requisite strength doesn't really matter in this case though. A PS of 24 isn't stated to allow someone to wield it one-handed, just to wield it suggesting you can't wield it one-handed easily (ex NG-Super Laser Pistol & GL in RUE/RMB has a PS requirement and penalties for 1 or 2 handed firing). Just because the character is an Power Armor suit doesn't not automatically make the weapon easier to handle from that perspective (the PS rating of a suit of PA isn't likely for just one limb, but the maximum strength the suit can employ).

WP: Paired Weapons in the WP description (RUE pg327):
-"Characters with the W.P Paired Weapons kill may use any weapons that can be effectively used with one hand" (to me this would require a Trickshooting to be able to dual wield railguns, one in each hand)
-"A character who gains the W.P. Paired Weapons skill from level advancement may use it with any one-handed melee weapons they are currently proficient with (has a W.P. in)" (which would seem to rule out the use of modern weapons, but then again the skill itself seems to allow it)
-"or which is too large or heavy effectively negates the Paired Weapons kill" (the railguns in questions are large and heavy IMHO)

EDIT: changed typo of pg227 to pg327

ShadowLogan wrote:

keir451 wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:actually the only classes that are built around using paired modern weapons are the rifts Gunslingers, which receive a special "Paired Weapons: Revolvers and Pistols" skill with their OCC. which has completely different text and rules than the WP: Paired skill.

Granted, and I don't argue against this.

However it is possible for a relative aspect to be at play if the Character is large enough to treat the specific "two handed weapon" as a "single handed weapon". Probably a high specialized situation I admit. Even w/o that there is also the Trickshooting #1 ability, IF one spends the skill slots for it.

WP: Paired doesn't prevent one from using paired modern weapons since it notes you take penalties.

In this instance I'm using a CS Spec Forces char wearing power armor, so he's got the requisite strength to use each weapon separately one-handed.

The pre-requisite strength doesn't really matter in this case though. A PS of 24 isn't stated to allow someone to wield it one-handed, just to wield it suggesting you can't wield it one-handed easily (ex NG-Super Laser Pistol & GL in RUE/RMB has a PS requirement and penalties for 1 or 2 handed firing). Just because the character is an Power Armor suit doesn't not automatically make the weapon easier to handle from that perspective (the PS rating of a suit of PA isn't likely for just one limb, but the maximum strength the suit can employ).

WP: Paired Weapons in the WP description (RUE pg227):
-"Characters with the W.P Paired Weapons kill may use any weapons that can be effectively used with one hand" (to me this would require a Trickshooting to be able to dual wield railguns, one in each hand)
-"A character who gains the W.P. Paired Weapons skill from level advancement may use it with any one-handed melee weapons they are currently proficient with (has a W.P. in)" (which would seem to rule out the use of modern weapons, but then again the skill itself seems to allow it)
-"or which is too large or heavy effectively negates the Paired Weapons kill" (the railguns in questions are large and heavy IMHO)

Certainly, the RAW was probably geared more towards melee weapons vs. modern weapons. We do see, however, on pg. 123 of War Campaign, Skelebots wielding the C-200 one handed. The FASSAR-20's & 30's have a robotic PS of 30, the PA in this instance has a Robotic PS 0f 40 so I would have to say that the soldier in said PA could wield a C-200 in one hand with no penalties. Thus my "theory" that he could use one in each hand. But to make this clearer, this ONLY applies to when he's in the PA, outside of the PA it won't work.

ShadowLogan wrote:
WP: Paired Weapons in the WP description (RUE pg227):
-"Characters with the W.P Paired Weapons kill may use any weapons that can be effectively used with one hand" (to me this would require a Trickshooting to be able to dual wield railguns, one in each hand)
-"A character who gains the W.P. Paired Weapons skill from level advancement may use it with any one-handed melee weapons they are currently proficient with (has a W.P. in)" (which would seem to rule out the use of modern weapons, but then again the skill itself seems to allow it)
-"or which is too large or heavy effectively negates the Paired Weapons kill" (the railguns in questions are large and heavy IMHO)

1) the PW WP in RUE is on page 327. (Might of been a typo….*shrugs*)

2) page 327, 2nd collem, last paragraphe of the PW WP text, 3rd sentence….
" W.P. Paired Weapons is designed for melee weapons like knifes, swords, clubs, etc., not guns."
Rail-guns are guns so are not covered by WP Paired Weapons.

Could we drop the talk about paired weapons being used with guns? Since you all now know that modern weapons cannot be combined with the Paired Weapons WP.

The PW WP text also talks about how it cannot be used with two handed weapons.

(sidenote: knife made plural is knives. But since I was quoting I quoted in whole, including the typo.)

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:
WP: Paired Weapons in the WP description (RUE pg227):
-"Characters with the W.P Paired Weapons kill may use any weapons that can be effectively used with one hand" (to me this would require a Trickshooting to be able to dual wield railguns, one in each hand)
-"A character who gains the W.P. Paired Weapons skill from level advancement may use it with any one-handed melee weapons they are currently proficient with (has a W.P. in)" (which would seem to rule out the use of modern weapons, but then again the skill itself seems to allow it)
-"or which is too large or heavy effectively negates the Paired Weapons kill" (the railguns in questions are large and heavy IMHO)

1) the PW WP in RUE is on page 327. (Might of been a typo….*shrugs*)

2) page 327, 2nd collem, last paragraphe of the PW WP text, 3rd sentence….
" W.P. Paired Weapons is designed for melee weapons like knifes, swords, clubs, etc., not guns."
Rail-guns are guns so are not covered by WP Paired Weapons.

Could we drop the talk about paired weapons being used with guns? Since you all now know that modern weapons cannot be combined with the Paired Weapons WP.

The PW WP text also talks about how it cannot be used with two handed weapons.

(sidenote: knife made plural is knives. But since I was quoting I quoted in whole, including the typo.)

Its one of those wonky skills.
After all, the next sentence tat you cut off is "When shooting two guns at once there is a penalty of..."
Which pretty much means that "it was designed for X not Y, but can be used for Y"

And yes, its wonky because this gets into weird territory of overlaps with various other skills like Sharpshooter, never mind settling what is a one handed gun.
But the skill is 100% explicit.
Paired weapons works with two guns.
The book point blank says that it does, and claiming that it doesn't is denying the written rules, its not even and interpretation since the rules out right state that it is allowed. And cherry picking out one sentence and ignoring the next sentence is not "what is written" nor is it canon its just a house rule being presented as canon.
Answers here need canon answers and all that.

keir451 wrote:Certainly, the RAW was probably geared more towards melee weapons vs. modern weapons. We do see, however, on pg. 123 of War Campaign, Skelebots wielding the C-200 one handed. The FASSAR-20's & 30's have a robotic PS of 30, the PA in this instance has a Robotic PS 0f 40 so I would have to say that the soldier in said PA could wield a C-200 in one hand with no penalties. Thus my "theory" that he could use one in each hand. But to make this clearer, this ONLY applies to when he's in the PA, outside of the PA it won't work.

Avoiding the whole issue of the canon-status of art.

It isn't necessarily an issue of being able to wield a two-handed weapon with one hand, its being able to do it without penalty. By the rules there are really only a few ways that I know that works out:
1. WP Trickshooting Ability (#1 if IIRC)
2. Relative Size
3. Special Racial/Class Ability (most/all examples I could think of though point back to #1))

I don't know how much I would want to base an assessment on FASSAR-20/30 illustration, since in theory the 'bot could be programmed to be able to wield it w/o penalty.

drewkitty~..~ wrote:1) the PW WP in RUE is on page 327. (Might of been a typo….*shrugs*)

Most likely a typo, I've corrected it.

drewkitty~..~ wrote:Could we drop the talk about paired weapons being used with guns? Since you all now know that modern weapons cannot be combined with the Paired Weapons WP.

The PW WP text also talks about how it cannot be used with two handed weapons.

You leftout the bit at the very end of the WP Skill in RUE that states: "When shooting two guns at once there is a penalty of " to strike with regular and off-hand. If that wasn't there I'd tend to agree, but putting it in there would seem to indicate that one can shoot two guns at once is possible either by WP Paired skill or without it (and its really a note like the part about HTH skills granting the ability instead of a skill selection).

I also agree about the two-handed weapons thing, but even in terms of melee combat there are creatures that can wield a human-size two-handed weapon as if it was a one-handed weapon brining up the general issue of relative size. Plus you have the Trickshooting ability which allows one to treat a two handed weapon as a one-handed weapon. Neither apply to the specific scenario keir451 is using, but in the general sense they still apply.