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Venice Italy- My European Rifts knowledge is a bit sketchy. Is the fate of Venice Italy addressed anywhere?

Leo H wrote:Venice Italy- My European Rifts knowledge is a bit sketchy. Is the fate of Venice Italy addressed anywhere?

Human civilization was obliterated in italy completely, according to Triax and the NGR, with costal cities hardest hit and compltely destroyed. In the place of humans, half a dozen DB's were rifted in and built their own civilizations in the now-empty land devoid of human life, with wolven the most notable and largest population.

Therefore, Venice as you know it was most likely completely destroyed, and is probablly vacant and scoured of life, or at best, some aliens paved over whatever is there and rebuilt it according to their own desires.

Honestly, I kind of like it. the Cradel of western civilization, completely annilated with alien cultures that have no resemblance to the past have moved in. It helps drive home the post-apocalyptic feeling that is harder to come by in later books. Rome is GONE, as is venice and all the other great cities. in it's place could be damn well anything, but it's sure not human anymore.

In my games I like the idea of Venice being taken over by a semi-aquatic race.

Damian Magecraft wrote:In my games I like the idea of Venice being taken over by a semi-aquatic race.

I honestly perfer a clean slate. Maybe some mole-people filled in the ruins and turned it into a cave city

given the 100+ foot sea level rise, Venice would be totally underwater.

heck, it's practically underwater already.. it's been steadily sinking due to damage to the foundations from wells and power boats since the 1960's, and sea level rise already has forced them to start building a wall around their bay to hold out the sea.

http://www.livescience.com/19195-venice ... lowly.html

http://geology.com/sea-level-rise/venice.shtml

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOSE_Project
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... aters.html

glitterboy2098 wrote:given the 100+ foot sea level rise, Venice would be totally underwater.

heck, it's practically underwater already.. it's been steadily sinking due to damage to the foundations from wells and power boats since the 1960's, and sea level rise already has forced them to start building a wall around their bay to hold out the sea.

http://www.livescience.com/19195-venice ... lowly.html

http://geology.com/sea-level-rise/venice.shtml

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOSE_Project
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... aters.html

So looking at a map, I tend to agree that it would be underwater. Most of Italy would be either underwater or devoid of human life. What other races do you see taking the place of humanity in Italy?

As of 103 P.A., the wolfen were one of the major players in Italy and along the Mediterranean coast, according to WB5, p. 216.

By 109 P.A., Italy may also become a haven for rebel gargoyles fleeing from the Gargoyle Empire's violent purge, per WB31, p. 28.

Lizardmen could easily be living there.

Rifter #1 and Rodney Stott's New Roman Republic...but if you're seeking radical changes, you'll be disappointed: Venice is described as having survived as a maritime center and is on tentatively friendly terms with the NRR. In such a setting, I like to extrapolate that global warming and rising sea levels may have resulted in the Italian government sinking serious money into building a more radical and larger flood/sea control dike around the lagoon that MIGHT have blunted some of the more catastrophic flooding during the Coming of the Rifts. But such macro-engineering would doubtlessly run into serious anti-lobbying by various environmental groups and the like, plus current plans wouldn't take a sudden 100+ ft rise into account.

Dome city, anybody?

taalismn wrote:Rifter #1 and Rodney Stott's New Roman Republic...but if you're seeking radical changes, you'll be disappointed: Venice is described as having survived as a maritime center and is on tentatively friendly terms with the NRR. In such a setting, I like to extrapolate that global warming and rising sea levels may have resulted in the Italian government sinking serious money into building a more radical and larger flood/sea control dike around the lagoon that MIGHT have blunted some of the more catastrophic flooding during the Coming of the Rifts. But such macro-engineering would doubtlessly run into serious anti-lobbying by various environmental groups and the like, plus current plans wouldn't take a sudden 100+ ft rise into account.

Dome city, anybody?

Dome....yes, that's a cool idea. Venice and New Orleans have been of interest to me because of the particular dangers they face. If we go with the premise that the city survived, how well would they be getting along with the new neighbors? My other question is this;given the historical significance of Rome, would it be worth it for treasure hunters to brave the wrath of the Wolfen?

keep in mind that the republic of rifter 1 is VERY non-canon.. not only is it unofficial material, but Kevin S. has informed several freelancers that there is no wolfen republic in italy. so if you use it, expect to have your stuff contradicted in future Europe books.

Leo H wrote:

taalismn wrote:Rifter #1 and Rodney Stott's New Roman Republic...but if you're seeking radical changes, you'll be disappointed: Venice is described as having survived as a maritime center and is on tentatively friendly terms with the NRR. In such a setting, I like to extrapolate that global warming and rising sea levels may have resulted in the Italian government sinking serious money into building a more radical and larger flood/sea control dike around the lagoon that MIGHT have blunted some of the more catastrophic flooding during the Coming of the Rifts. But such macro-engineering would doubtlessly run into serious anti-lobbying by various environmental groups and the like, plus current plans wouldn't take a sudden 100+ ft rise into account.

Dome city, anybody?

Dome....yes, that's a cool idea. Venice and New Orleans have been of interest to me because of the particular dangers they face. If we go with the premise that the city survived, how well would they be getting along with the new neighbors? My other question is this;given the historical significance of Rome, would it be worth it for treasure hunters to brave the wrath of the Wolfen?

The Rifter #1 is completely noncannon, and Kevin has gone on record saying that there is NOT actually a wolven republic in Italy, it was just a cool bit of fanfiction that was published, and he has other plans for the region.

also, I personally think it'd be kind of neat is Rome was simply annilated somehow, and there's not even a ruin left. otherwise, "what's in rome" will be the anchor around the neck of any writer trying to do anything with the place.

Oh, you can have Wulfen roaming Italy claiming to be 'New Romans', but they're not necessarily more than a few small tribes or d-bee stragglers causing rumors that bloom far beyond the actual reality of the situation. And the Gargoyle refugees will be scouring the area looking for anybody who could give them trouble while they're trying to avoid the vengeful Germans. ANYBODY showing any sort of organized civilization in Italy at that time will be subject to Gargoyle aggression to prevent word getting out to the Germans, and to kill any opposition. Under such circumstances, rumors of an underwater city and potential refuge(especially if it's HUMAN) off the coast would be of interest to any non-Gargoyle refugees looking to escape the big winged monsters....and to the gargoyles pursuing them. This can be a minus for the dwellers of such a city, human or otherwise, if they're looking to remain undetected and unbothered, or it could be, if you want to be EVIL, a source of slaves for the city dwellers, if they're utter, total, bastards with some power to dominate the refugees.

I could also see something like a private MDC marine habitat(akin to the underwater complex in the movie 'The Spy Who Loved Me' or like http://i.imgur.com/lLy0e.jpg), being built by some wealthy and flamboyant pre-Rifts Golden Age European tycoon...maybe a secretive resort, or private mobile island/megascale yacht..that might survive the Coming of the Rifts and start rumors of a 'New Venice'.

IMO, if you want Venice in post-rifts.. make it "New Venice".

a new city built out ontop of the water somewhere near the flooded ruins of the old city. perhaps unlike the old city, it isn't even built on a solid foundation, but is instead a floating city built on old ships, rafts, and the like. (perhaps draw elements from Waterworld and similar)

glitterboy2098 wrote:IMO, if you want Venice in post-rifts.. make it "New Venice".

a new city built out ontop of the water somewhere near the flooded ruins of the old city. perhaps unlike the old city, it isn't even built on a solid foundation, but is instead a floating city built on old ships, rafts, and the like. (perhaps draw elements from Waterworld and similar)

That I like. Has a core of a few pre-Rifts MDC vessels, like military naval craft, that provide(faltering) power from their ancient nuclear powerplants, and maybe some defensive capability from energy weapons and few zealously-horded and painstakingly maintained missile launchers. The rulers could be enlightened humanitarians who seek to provide a refuge for people from the mainland, or harsh dictators seeking to exploit the desperation of people and maintain their own power.

for the coe of the city (what i'd call "the hub"), i'd use a semi-submersible oil platform. an MDC one from before the rifts, which they found and towed into place. (perhaps the city founders wanted a base from which to do salvage from the flooded ruins of the old city. while most of the art and stuff would be ruined by the water, you could salvage a ton of statuary, architectural elements, old fancy glasswork, etc. which could be sold as rare pre-rifts artifacts to collectors )

the platform's oil drilling gear is gone, to be replaced with city government facilities and some defensive gear.

then i'd add some ships..
an old cargo ship is now the city market, a three dimensional complex of storage containers, walkways, platforms, and stalls.
an old Destroyer (or Frigate) is the city law enforcement HQ.. with a Prison built onto an old barge moored alongside.
several more barges have been covered into farming platforms.. with some greenhouses for the more fiddly plants.
Citizen housing is various cruise ships, houseboats, and barges.
City defense operates small attack boats deploying from several floating docks stationed around the city's edge.

Cruise liners...that's going to be either the first area to be ripped up for valuable gear and loot, or it's going to be where the wealthier citizens live.
There was talk in some magazines a ways back of seaborne estate complexes for international go-getters which were essentially sea-going gated communities(the move 'Brazil' features a parody poster of what's essentially a battleship with an apartment complex on top, serviced by heavily armed flying boat).

i'd imagine a bit of both.. some of the more run down ones probably have become their version of the inner city, while the ones with better upkeep end up as the richer side of town. i'd imagine the super-rich though would have obtained private yachts or custom built places.

What do you guys think, ships at sea when the Rifts came, survive or were salvaged for stuff?

Leo H wrote:What do you guys think, ships at sea when the Rifts came, survive or were salvaged for stuff?

Best chance, if they're out far enough to ride the waves...or are in a (VERY) sheltered enough port...followed up by ships driven ashore that could be raided from the water for salvage.

Of course, the seas aren't 100% safe, and I imagine a lot of refugees just after the Rifts made the unfortunate acquaintance of the first sea monsters to emerge....

out at sea would be the best place to ride out the tidal waves.. waves only become a major problem once they get close to shore.

if a ship had enough supplies to make it past the first months of the ashfalls and weird weather, a ship or floating oil rig would likely make it all the way. just look at the new navy and tritonia.

The flotilla idea is good, thanks for sharing it and fleshing it out. With that in mind, what do people think a realistic breakdown of civilian to military ships would be for the flotilla? My honest thought was, with attrition from various things that at best it would be 70%-80% civilian. The rest would be military, most of that being Pre-Rifts with about 5%-10% being current Rifts tech. Thoughts? different %?

Leo H wrote:The flotilla idea is good, thanks for sharing it and fleshing it out. With that in mind, what do people think a realistic breakdown of civilian to military ships would be for the flotilla? My honest thought was, with attrition from various things that at best it would be 70%-80% civilian. The rest would be military, most of that being Pre-Rifts with about 5%-10% being current Rifts tech. Thoughts? different %?

Sounds about right...afterwards you can always start building a civilian militia/levy to help drive off minor monsters, deal with boarders, and run vessels while professional soldiers/coast guardsmen handle the heavy weapons.

I'm very much in the "it's gone" camp. Venice is built in the middle of a swamp in the middle of a bay and is already several feet deep in seawater. In Rifts Earth "Venice" is just going to be the name of a reef twenty or thirty miles out to sea in the Adriatic.

Rallan wrote:I'm very much in the "it's gone" camp. Venice is built in the middle of a swamp in the middle of a bay and is already several feet deep in seawater. In Rifts Earth "Venice" is just going to be the name of a reef twenty or thirty miles out to sea in the Adriatic.

Well, can't completely argue with your idea. I figure the flotilla will be over the site of Venice. It's probable that the flotilla would be recovering artifacts from the city to sell. That would make an ideal place to recover Pre-Rifts artifacts.

Leo H wrote:The flotilla idea is good, thanks for sharing it and fleshing it out. With that in mind, what do people think a realistic breakdown of civilian to military ships would be for the flotilla? My honest thought was, with attrition from various things that at best it would be 70%-80% civilian. The rest would be military, most of that being Pre-Rifts with about 5%-10% being current Rifts tech. Thoughts? different %?

Now when you say civilian ships, can they have weapons mounted on them at all (like anti-missile/anti-aircraft weapons mounted on top of the bridges of many of the civilian ships to help with the defense of the flotilla).

I would suggest that 'civilian' means 'limited built in weapons'
A military ship has stuff built into it. Turrets, missile bays, etc. A civilian ship basically has none or nearly none of that, and any that gets added would basically be armed vehicles parked on deck or simple pintle mounts and handheld systems stationed on deck. Look at some of the anti-pirate systems being mounted on freighters IRL for examples.

Some of the post-cataclysm ships might fall in between those categories, but even there the non-military stuff has at best a couple lasers, while the military ones are usually floating arsenals.

Leo H wrote:

Rallan wrote:I'm very much in the "it's gone" camp. Venice is built in the middle of a swamp in the middle of a bay and is already several feet deep in seawater. In Rifts Earth "Venice" is just going to be the name of a reef twenty or thirty miles out to sea in the Adriatic.

Well, can't completely argue with your idea. I figure the flotilla will be over the site of Venice. It's probable that the flotilla would be recovering artifacts from the city to sell. That would make an ideal place to recover Pre-Rifts artifacts.

Venice could have been the site of some serious Golden Age efforts to use macro-engineering and the new materials to try to protect the city, so even wrecked, there might be MDC materials laying in that 'reef' waiting to be pulled up and recycled.

even without MDC materials, you have stone statuary, decorative bits of ancient stone buildings, and the like you could salvage.

glitterboy2098 wrote:I would suggest that 'civilian' means 'limited built in weapons'
A military ship has stuff built into it. Turrets, missile bays, etc. A civilian ship basically has none or nearly none of that, and any that gets added would basically be armed vehicles parked on deck or simple pintle mounts and handheld systems stationed on deck. Look at some of the anti-pirate systems being mounted on freighters IRL for examples.

Some of the post-cataclysm ships might fall in between those categories, but even there the non-military stuff has at best a couple lasers, while the military ones are usually floating arsenals.

Yeah what he(? going by the handle) said. Military ships would have more weapons and more inbuilt weapons as well as be higher MDC with mostly if not all military personnel onboard.

Leo H wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:I would suggest that 'civilian' means 'limited built in weapons'
A military ship has stuff built into it. Turrets, missile bays, etc. A civilian ship basically has none or nearly none of that, and any that gets added would basically be armed vehicles parked on deck or simple pintle mounts and handheld systems stationed on deck. Look at some of the anti-pirate systems being mounted on freighters IRL for examples.

Some of the post-cataclysm ships might fall in between those categories, but even there the non-military stuff has at best a couple lasers, while the military ones are usually floating arsenals.

Yeah what he(? going by the handle) said. Military ships would have more weapons and more inbuilt weapons as well as be higher MDC with mostly if not all military personnel onboard.

More likely too, during the Golden Age, to have advanced nuclear power systems.

i figure the non-military ships and the barges would basically have the the equivalent of sandbag bunkers and reinforced sheds built on deck, where you'd find the defense force troops on duty with sidearms, and a supply of shoulder launched missiles, or maybe a small towed weapon emplacement bolted to the deck.

sorta like this:
http://i.imgur.com/OFQiB.jpg
http://www.newsmaritime.com/wp-content/ ... -ships.jpg
http://www.safety4sea.com/images/media/ ... 0guard.jpg

ships on the outer edge of the flotilla/complex would have most of the heavier gear (and military ships with their built in weapons would tend to be stationed on the outside edge as well.. in part because they they could cast off their moorings and intercept threats farther away)

closer to the center of the flotilla/compex you'd have 'defense points' which would have clusters of the heavier stuff amid the housing, markets, etc.

think "mad max" but with ships instead of cars.

Okay, so a layered defense for the floating city makes a lot of sense. What do you guys think about mines to keep outsiders from trying to access the city ruins? Or would an underwater defensive branch make more sense?

i don't think you'd want mines in the salvage area itself. too much safety hazard, and too big a chance of destroying something valuable.

but sea mines stations several miles outside the edge of the city to create a defense ring around it might make some sense. (if one or more of the ships in the flotilla were pre-rifts minelayers this would help justify some of it.)

and the defnse units of the city have SCUBA training and undersea combat ability also makes a lot of sense. not only do you want the ability to defend the underside of the boats, but if your using divers to salvage stuff, you'll also want guards and police that can be there right alongside.

Lay down an underwater grid or lattice work over the worksite....that makes it easier for divers to find their way around the site especially when vigorous salvage work is stirring up the muck.

If you got amphibious or aquatic members of your community, then you got your underwater patrol right there...maybe station them in a sunken shelter near lagoon inlets and channels, with their fingers on the controls of command-detonation mines(similar systems were part of some American harbor defenses, with channel mines fired from coastal positions).

taalismn wrote:Lay down an underwater grid or lattice work over the worksite....that makes it easier for divers to find their way around the site especially when vigorous salvage work is stirring up the muck.

If you got amphibious or aquatic members of your community, then you got your underwater patrol right there...maybe station them in a sunken shelter near lagoon inlets and channels, with their fingers on the controls of command-detonation mines(similar systems were part of some American harbor defenses, with channel mines fired from coastal positions).

Yeah, okay, that makes a lot of sense to me. I have to figure there are gonna always be raiders so the city should be prepared for them. Humans and aquatic DB's working together opens up strategic defense options as well as excavation options for the ruins.

Heck, towards the end of the Second World War, the Imperial Japanese government looked into building offshore concrete bunkers near anticipated landing beaches, The idea was that frogmen would live there(no hard info on how they were supplied with air, but presumably it would be pumped by hose, along with power and telephone lines from shore) underwater until they got word that allied landing craft were arriving. Then they'd don rebreathers, and either swim out to plant charges or walk, with weighted boots, along the beach bottom, and attach charges on the end of long poles to the underside of landing craft passing overhead. Insane, desperate idea, but in Rifts, with mutants, d-bees, water-breathing magic, EBA, and bionic gill implants, it's one of those ideas worth a second look.

If we take the gag-worthy practice of taking a cultural stereotype and Rift-a-fying it, then Rifts: Venice would be all about MDC gondolas. I don't like MDC gondolas. Therefore, Venice is destroyed!

If you're looking for a Rifts allegory to a more historical Venice (trade-centered city out at sea), I'd go with that floating city in Underseas. If you want the Rifts allegory to the modern Venice (A tourist trap), then I'd go with something in Atlantis.

Given the projections for that region, don't see people doing a lot in the tourist trade business. I was thinking more trade and last bastion of civilization type thing. Sterotypes are no good for anyone.

i still stand by my "salvage ops" for why a floating city exists. looks at the the stuff you could salvage that post-rifts collectors/builders might want:
Architecture - reusing old bits of buildings is an age old tradition, one that would be a point of pride for some builders. (in fact, more than a few of the old buildings in Venice use decorative stuff from other ancient cities, like Constantinople.)
Statuary - objects of art with major historic value as well.
Decorative glassware - could be sold as curios and artwork.

not to mention stuff like gold, gems, and jewelry, or bits of old tech, piping, etc valuable for their raw materials.

Leo H wrote:Given the projections for that region, don't see people doing a lot in the tourist trade business. I was thinking more trade and last bastion of civilization type thing. Sterotypes are no good for anyone.

If you're looking for a trade/bastion of civilization location in the mediterranian, I'd be more inclined to look toward a place that isn't already requiring extensive engineering to keep it from sinking into the sea. Gibraltar, Rhodes, Malta, and Crete would be better choices. Most of those places have withstood some pretty intense attacks over the course of recorded history and would be better equipped to handle the apocalypse.

Have some ancient artifacts in the pre-Rifts city being magic artifacts acquired by Venetian merchants back when they coursed the Med.
Now have that necromantic neo-Egyptian Phoenix Empire come looking for them, figuring the area's not well protected and far enough away that the Germans aren't likely to extend any support that far outside their borders.
The (New)Venetians don't know why this bunch of outsiders is so dead-set on raiding their city, but it's worrying to say the least!

taalismn wrote:Have some ancient artifacts in the pre-Rifts city being magic artifacts acquired by Venetian merchants back when they coursed the Med.
Now have that necromantic neo-Egyptian Phoenix Empire come looking for them, figuring the area's not well protected and far enough away that the Germans aren't likely to extend any support that far outside their borders.
The (New)Venetians don't know why this bunch of outsiders is so dead-set on raiding their city, but it's worrying to say the least!

That's a good idea that makes a lot of sense with the return of magic to Earth. Thanks, it fits in well with my trade center/recovery center theme for New Venice. I'm looking at a cooperative effort between some of the regional cities that survived. Enemies determined to recover an artifact at all cost would be a good reason to hire additional people to defend the site.

Forced cooperation against a common foe can always make for a good region-building campaign.
Of course, one city hiring mercenaries from another can lead to trouble if it's apparent that only one city is under threat. Once the threat goes away, certain payment obligations might come up promptly, or the mercenaries may decide not to leave, thus becoming as big a problem as the original threat.
Ideally you want neighbors who will realize that it might be THEM under threat next time, and having neighbors who may feel some grateful obligation to come to their aide would be a good thing.

taalismn wrote:Forced cooperation against a common foe can always make for a good region-building campaign.
Of course, one city hiring mercenaries from another can lead to trouble if it's apparent that only one city is under threat. Once the threat goes away, certain payment obligations might come up promptly, or the mercenaries may decide not to leave, thus becoming as big a problem as the original threat.
Ideally you want neighbors who will realize that it might be THEM under threat next time, and having neighbors who may feel some grateful obligation to come to their aide would be a good thing.

Merctown became a thing when people couldn't pay their bills. My plan is for the regional powers to feel threatened enough to band together. As part of their plan they'd hire some mercs for added security or scouting the enemy forces.

Whatever you do, please don't have magic/TW/high-tech gondolas.

Hotrod wrote:Whatever you do, please don't have magic/TW/high-tech gondolas.

Actually no, gondolas were never gonna be a thing. Although I do (now) find myself curious why you seem to really hate gondolas. Did they do something to you or is it the whole tourist thing in general you hate?

Leo H wrote:

Hotrod wrote:Whatever you do, please don't have magic/TW/high-tech gondolas.

Actually no, gondolas were never gonna be a thing. Although I do (now) find myself curious why you seem to really hate gondolas. Did they do something to you or is it the whole tourist thing in general you hate?

Mugged by a gondoleer? Or got one of the singing ones? Something like mime-trauma?

taalismn wrote:

Leo H wrote:

Hotrod wrote:Whatever you do, please don't have magic/TW/high-tech gondolas.

Actually no, gondolas were never gonna be a thing. Although I do (now) find myself curious why you seem to really hate gondolas. Did they do something to you or is it the whole tourist thing in general you hate?

Mugged by a gondoleer? Or got one of the singing ones? Something like mime-trauma?

In present day Venice (which smells bad, by the way; lots of bacteria in the water), gondolas are overpriced boat-ride dates with some Italian dude standing over you the whole time singing off-key. Combined with my aversion to taking cultural stereotypes and Rift-a-fying them, MDC gondolas would be a perfect storm of vexation for me.

If your date wants to go on a boat ride for two, I suggest renting a canoe or a 2-person kayak.

You know, for all my smack talk about Venice and its gondolas, I have to give it this much: there are no Italian drivers in the old city. Seriously, Italian street traffic is scary. They treat sidewalks like another lane.