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Sorry if this has been brought up before, I didn't find anything on it. I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the penalties to IQ and Speed given to very large creatures.

While it is true that some very large creatures are viewed as having been not-so-bright, cetaceans (i.e. whales, dolphins) are very large and fairly intelligent. It doesn't make sense to me that these huge creatures get the same or greater penalty than size level 1 creatures.

The speed penalties for very large creatures make even less sense. Speed is a function of stride length (the distance traveled with each step) and turn-over rate (the number of steps taken per unit time). While larger creatures are likely to have slower metabolisms (and lower turn-over rate) than smaller creatures, this does not imply they are slow. The penalties listed on the table basically immobilizes creatures of size level 20 and up. Perhaps a penalty to PP might be more appropriate.

Has anyone else noticed? Any ideas on correcting this?

Short version answer: It's a balancing mechanic to prevent godzilla type giant, superstrong, creatures that were likewise supersmart.

A bit longer answer:
After the Bomb is very much set on a "Seesaw" Sort of mechanic. To be great in one area you're less in another. To get full human hands, biped, speech, you likely don't have full human looks. If you get full human looks, you likely don't get cool things like claws or wings. You can build to design but you "Give to get"

As the game is --built-- it's almost assumed you're gong to be 'small' The TMNT were under or right around 5 foot. The ATB almost assumes you're going to be that big too, because you either build up from tiny, or shrink down from bigger. Why? To get those Bio-E points to get the cool 'extras' for your animal.

So while longer legs might mean a longer stride, more mass takes more energy to move and more time to get to speed. While large creatures aren't restricted by brian size, the 'mental image' is "Big and dumb". Their... biological energy has gone to size and strength instead of intelligence.


Remember these are 'fictional games' that work on the old tried and true 'fictional universe rules". Small and clever, quick and agile. Large, and STRONG, but dumb or slow.

You 'can' break the mold, but you gotta pay to do so.

But the easiest answer is "Purposeful game balance"

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Short version answer: It's a balancing mechanic to prevent godzilla type giant, superstrong, creatures that were likewise supersmart.

A bit longer answer:
After the Bomb is very much set on a "Seesaw" Sort of mechanic. To be great in one area you're less in another. To get full human hands, biped, speech, you likely don't have full human looks. If you get full human looks, you likely don't get cool things like claws or wings. You can build to design but you "Give to get"

As the game is --built-- it's almost assumed you're gong to be 'small' The TMNT were under or right around 5 foot. The ATB almost assumes you're going to be that big too, because you either build up from tiny, or shrink down from bigger. Why? To get those Bio-E points to get the cool 'extras' for your animal.

So while longer legs might mean a longer stride, more mass takes more energy to move and more time to get to speed. While large creatures aren't restricted by brian size, the 'mental image' is "Big and dumb". Their... biological energy has gone to size and strength instead of intelligence.


Remember these are 'fictional games' that work on the old tried and true 'fictional universe rules". Small and clever, quick and agile. Large, and STRONG, but dumb or slow.

You 'can' break the mold, but you gotta pay to do so.

But the easiest answer is "Purposeful game balance"

I understand your explanation, but there's a difference between being "big and dumb" and "big and brain-dead" or "big and slow" and "big and immobile". I think the biggest penalty for being size level 25 (or similar) and weighing 50 tons is that most normal interactions are impossible for you. You can't enter buildings, ride around in vehicles (except large ones, as cargo), use any form of stealth, use firearms, use most skills etc. There is likely to be no equipment you can practically use. Thus it doesn't strike me as being particularly imbalanced to allow such a character to have a human-average IQ, or to move (any characters of that size level are likely to have a move of 0, using the rules as written; I suppose one could cap it at a minimum speed of 3, no matter the penalties). After the Bomb 2E seems to go out of its way to encourage large characters (Giant Animal Characters, p. 23), but the ways of doing so exacerbate the problem of huge IQ and Speed penalties. Perhaps a more balanced way of doing this would be to lessen the IQ and Speed penalties in the size level table, and add a PP penalty for large characters.

GnomesofZurich wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Short version answer: It's a balancing mechanic to prevent godzilla type giant, superstrong, creatures that were likewise supersmart.

A bit longer answer:
After the Bomb is very much set on a "Seesaw" Sort of mechanic. To be great in one area you're less in another. To get full human hands, biped, speech, you likely don't have full human looks. If you get full human looks, you likely don't get cool things like claws or wings. You can build to design but you "Give to get"

As the game is --built-- it's almost assumed you're gong to be 'small' The TMNT were under or right around 5 foot. The ATB almost assumes you're going to be that big too, because you either build up from tiny, or shrink down from bigger. Why? To get those Bio-E points to get the cool 'extras' for your animal.

So while longer legs might mean a longer stride, more mass takes more energy to move and more time to get to speed. While large creatures aren't restricted by brian size, the 'mental image' is "Big and dumb". Their... biological energy has gone to size and strength instead of intelligence.


Remember these are 'fictional games' that work on the old tried and true 'fictional universe rules". Small and clever, quick and agile. Large, and STRONG, but dumb or slow.

You 'can' break the mold, but you gotta pay to do so.

But the easiest answer is "Purposeful game balance"

I understand your explanation, but there's a difference between being "big and dumb" and "big and brain-dead" or "big and slow" and "big and immobile". I think the biggest penalty for being size level 25 (or similar) and weighing 50 tons is that most normal interactions are impossible for you. You can't enter buildings, ride around in vehicles (except large ones, as cargo), use any form of stealth, use firearms, use most skills etc. There is likely to be no equipment you can practically use. Thus it doesn't strike me as being particularly imbalanced to allow such a character to have a human-average IQ, or to move (any characters of that size level are likely to have a move of 0, using the rules as written; I suppose one could cap it at a minimum speed of 3, no matter the penalties). After the Bomb 2E seems to go out of its way to encourage large characters (Giant Animal Characters, p. 23), but the ways of doing so exacerbate the problem of huge IQ and Speed penalties. Perhaps a more balanced way of doing this would be to lessen the IQ and Speed penalties in the size level table, and add a PP penalty for large characters.

The way I play and the people I play with, we usually end up with some what small chars, to make sure we get all the 'stuff' we want. Claws and fangs and predator burst etc.

*shrugs* I don't know. out side of dino char's or the rare guy that goes total psionic and stays big, it's never really been a problem for our group. We just chalk it up to 'TV/Game science' vs "REAL" Science. Big/strong. Large/slow type thing is just there, and there are penalties but they're not that bad unless you're crazy big. I mean 100,000 pounds? The penalties in IQ and Sp are offset by the bonous in PS and PE. Thing is. 100,000lbs is BIG. You're talking six times as large as an elephant.

Unless you're honestly trying to play a godzilla type game, it's kinda silly as a PC. If you ARE trying to play a godzilla type game, you should use modified rules. (Not being mean, but if that's what you're doing the 'standard' rules wouldn't fit.

As pointed out before, the game, if you crunch the numbers and stuff, stears one towards roughly size lvl 5-9 or so characters. Huge creatures start with no bio-e and must shead levels to get bio-e to work with. The builds aren't really viable for something bigger than.. size lvl 19 or so, and even at 19, you're likely to have no bio-e to spend. You'd be stuck as an intelligent animal with no real way to communicate other than barking like lassie and pawing the ground.

Solution: change IQ penalty to PP penalty, change Spd penalty into Spd bonus.

Palladium...game balance? What?

-STS

Also another option, if you want to let some HU rules leak in: it allows minor super abilities beginning with 'extraordinary' to be purchased for 10 Bio-E, so you could select Extraordinary Intelligence or Extraordinary Speed if you're unhappy with those attributes. If Ext Spd is TOO Fast, you also get a smaller Spd bonus from Ext PP.

Minor super abilities also cost 10 Bio-E in Mutants in Orbit so it's a pretty good guideline.