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Something occurred to me, and I'm surprised it hasn't been brought up before. If it has, please pardon this post. But I was looking over our favorite living armored warriors, the Holy Terrors. One of its greatest abilities for dealing with vampires, werecreatures and others vulnerable to silver is their ability to produce, and fire silver spikes from their shoulders and hands. The spikes regenerate after twenty-four hours. Now, nowhere does it say that the spikes ever disappear or evaporate, which would really suck if the only thing keeping vampires from coming back from being staked by a Holy Terror is a shelf life on the spikes. So if they don't magically disappear, yet the Holy Terror can magically/alchemically produce new ones a day later, doesn't this stand to reason that Holy Terrors will always be able to produce items for trade in precious metals if the need arises?

Let's say for example that the average Holy Terror silver spike weighs 5 pounds. For current trade value on Rifts Earth, silver is worth 300 credits an ounce. That would be 4800 credits a pound, or 24,000 per normal size spike. If the spikes grow and increase in weight three times just as the Holy Terror does and do not shrink once fired off, that's 72,000 credits for a single spike. If they didn't grow and all sixteen were fired off, that would be 384,000 credits, or if they DID grow and stayed large, 1,152,000 credits total, renewed after twenty-four hours. You have the potential of a creature that even if they didn't need the money for equipment, could swap a natural resource they have for their teammates for anywhere from almost 400,000 to nearly 1.2 million in credits a day!

Has anyone else thought about this possibility? Has a player in your game tried to exploit the good nature and silver producing ability of the Holy Terrors in your game? Please feel free to discuss the possibility of breaking the bank of the Black Market with the friendliest living power armors in the Megaverse.

Just say no.
In canon, yes, this would be sweet & legal (as written-word). But just... no...no....no.

Yes, but it'd make for an interesting conundrum with a party if a Holy Terror was with them and they needed cash for weapons. Then spring vampires on them! Oh crap, too bad you spent all your friend Bob's spikes for that new particle beam rifle that does NO damage to them. Now you know kids, and knowing is half the battle.

Plenty of RPGs have magic spells that allow you to create stuff so players create diamonds. It's a similiar issue as with Holy Terrors or the guy play a dragon who wants to bleed himself and use his regen over and over and sell his blood because in your last campaign, dragon blood was a really valuable spell component.

As the GM, you have to protect the in-game economy or the campaign flies apart. It's great when the PCs become rich, but when they break the economy, the players usually lose motivation. I would rule the silver spikes become inert metal within minutes after leaving the Holy Terror's body.

Just say the spikes are only silver plated, and make minute amounts of silver part of the Holy Terrors diet every one and awhile.

I like the dragon blood idea, but what spell allows you to create things like diamonds? The only thing that comes to my mind would be the Conjurer.

ARGH! My silver stocks just collapsed!

taalismn wrote:ARGH! My silver stocks just collapsed!

Yep, just like Shiela E's lung years ago. But hold on, there may still be hope. You can never have too much silver for electronics and staking vampires or werecreatures. Just stock up and release in moderation.

taalismn wrote:ARGH! My silver stocks just collapsed!

Just saw Thraxus building a 1:1 scale model of Center out of silver trading bars...

maybe the two of you can get together an share a pint.

Somehow I doubt that Thraxus cares that much about the price of silver. However, if someone made a Mega Holy Terror that shot magical spikes made out of Gantrium that worked on the supernatural like a combination of silver and U-Rounds...

Depends on the location first of all. It is never mentioned in PW, but I'd suspect that precious metals aren't worth all that much. When you are talking 3 different galaxies to access, especially asteroid belts and minor moons things like silver are going to be pretty easy to access, same with gold, platinum, etc. It is only going to be really rare things like galantrium which are truely rare.

Heck, take a modern day example, silver is valued around $20 an ounce...I am using a rounded amount. That is $320 a pound or $1,600 for that 5lb spike (supposing it was 5lbs). I can see silver being more valuable on the Palladium world because there is no advanced mining, I can see it more valuable in rifts earth because of the value of silver against vampires, numerous other supernatural creatures and also the general collapse of civillization and the difficulty of mining or scavenging silver. Places like HU and PW silver just isn't going to be worth all that much. $1,600 isn't shabby, but it isn't all that much money. In PW you might be able to trade all 16 for a couple of E-clips and a good night on the town.

Also 5lbs sounds like a little much. A 6lb gun fires a projectile 57mm in bore and around 100mm in length (~2.25x5in). That is substantially larger then anything I'd consider a 'stake' or spike. It might be somewhat longer, maybe 8-10in in length, but the diameter is going to be a lot less. I tossed around a 6lb US AP shell from WWII over the weekend (I wanted to buy it, but the antique shop wanted $65 for it and not a penny less...I am not paying $65 for a paper weight), it is a lot of weight and massive in comparison to a spike. Silver isn't much more dense then iron/steel. I'd say the spike is probably going to be more like 2-3lbs in weight, even in the holy terrors larger size that only comes out to about 10lbs at the high end of things.

Even assuming a vampire is supernatural, wood and silver effect them much like a normal wood or metal implement would effect a human being (IE they are mundane against them). A 3lb spike is going to have to move pretty slowly to not just rip right through a vampire's body...that'll do damage, but it isn't going to leave them 'staked'. So I'd say 3lbs has to be on the high end, with a relatively low velocity (probably only 100-150mph).

Back to the value, rifts and palladium, fairly valuable (but I'd half the weight you are using, call it 2.5lbs), but places like PW and HU it isn't worth all that much (I'd look up the going rate of silver, gold and platinum and use the going rate in HU, BTS and N&SS and I'd use 1/4th or 1/2 the going rate for PW in credits or Mutants in Orbit in IOUs...for the later because frankly precious metals don't have many uses outside of looking pretty, at least not that allow you to keep breathing or your ship running).
-Matt

Interesting. I was just trying to figure out the possibilities, I'm glad to get people thinking about this in their own games.

DtMK wrote:Interesting. I was just trying to figure out the possibilities, I'm glad to get people thinking about this in their own games.

'Thinking'? No, I skip that and go straight to wholesale panic or towering rage...

My players typically looted the oppnents they killed, especially tech ones. They take all teh eclips for themselves leavingone in any still useful weapons then next town they hit they either sell or donate htme to the town....made a ton of money that way as well as upgraded themselves on occasion

Mind you doing it daily I woudl think might go against the philosophy of teh HT to start with. Removing a few to help a town that needs money for seed or blankets is one thing but doing it to get rigch is another

Darkorinth wrote:If you want a more horrifying idea of how to make money just take a look at the Pheonix tattoo. It specifically states that it regrows limbs and internal organs. My current crop of PCs includes an Undead Slayer who has one. He and some others have been talking very seriously about going to a town with a leyline (like merc town) and opening up a free clinic. In the clinic they would use the tattoo to treat people for free, but before that they would put the people under sedation and remove a few limbs and most of their internal organs. Then tap the tattoo and the person is back to perfect health with no idea what happened. They can then sell the organs to body shops or people who need transplants or whatever they like. And they can argue that it wouldn't even be an evil act since the person that came to see them did get healed to perfect health for free!

That is just brilliant!

taalismn wrote:ARGH! My silver stocks just collapsed!

Good reason to wage genocide on Holly Terrors.

jaymz wrote:

Darkorinth wrote:If you want a more horrifying idea of how to make money just take a look at the Pheonix tattoo. It specifically states that it regrows limbs and internal organs. My current crop of PCs includes an Undead Slayer who has one. He and some others have been talking very seriously about going to a town with a leyline (like merc town) and opening up a free clinic. In the clinic they would use the tattoo to treat people for free, but before that they would put the people under sedation and remove a few limbs and most of their internal organs. Then tap the tattoo and the person is back to perfect health with no idea what happened. They can then sell the organs to body shops or people who need transplants or whatever they like. And they can argue that it wouldn't even be an evil act since the person that came to see them did get healed to perfect health for free!

That is just brilliant!

The liklyhood of a person dying is great in operations like this, and while the tattoo does resurect it takes a PE point and some PPE permenantly. If they do this they better be ready to make some sacrifies of life energy.

Wouldn't this be out of character for a Holy Terror? The way I saw it is they don't really care for money much.

While they themselves may not have much use for money/trade goods they are intelligent enough to realize that the humans/mortals they fight alongside are not so lucky. Granted I can't see them setting around filling up bags of silver spikes, I would think they wouldn't have much of a problem giving a couple to a friend if asked.

And if all else fails just tell 'em their aim sucks and they need to practice, after they're done go pick up the left overs.

Darkorinth wrote:If you want a more horrifying idea of how to make money just take a look at the Pheonix tattoo. It specifically states that it regrows limbs and internal organs. My current crop of PCs includes an Undead Slayer who has one. He and some others have been talking very seriously about going to a town with a leyline (like merc town) and opening up a free clinic. In the clinic they would use the tattoo to treat people for free, but before that they would put the people under sedation and remove a few limbs and most of their internal organs. Then tap the tattoo and the person is back to perfect health with no idea what happened. They can then sell the organs to body shops or people who need transplants or whatever they like. And they can argue that it wouldn't even be an evil act since the person that came to see them did get healed to perfect health for free!

Seet Idea. I would reward players for coming up with ideas like that.

problems however :
Alignements. Good Characters would not harm innocents for money/profit. If they are Evil, then sure, go ahead...

Um, they still have to do DNA matching, at least blood typing. Unless they have access to a HUGE city medical system, they may not be able to move those spare arms.

Advanced technology, we can assume that they have a method to recode the antigens of the donor limb/tissue/organ to that of the recipient.

Of course not something I'd imagine a chop shop would have handy, but considering the advances of our current medicine it doesn't seem to far fetched that Coalition or NGR medicine would be able to do this. Heck the genetic engineering of Lone Star is more advanced then antigen recoding.
-Matt

Jmur wrote:Wouldn't this be out of character for a Holy Terror? The way I saw it is they don't really care for money much.

Then again, not having many physical needs and the ability to barter spikes in a pinch could match with such an attitude.
Though I'd likely follow the lead of not being solid silver through it, and certainly not as heavy as suggested in the example.

I think in a pinch a Holy Terror may part with a few but since they are undead hunters it be out of their nature since they have no need of money. That being said his group could fetch some of the ones hes fired and sell them. I'm sure a holy terror would give one to starving child.

runebeo wrote:I think in a pinch a Holy Terror may part with a few but since they are undead hunters it be out of their nature since they have no need of money. That being said his group could fetch some of the ones hes fired and sell them. I'm sure a holy terror would give one to starving child.

THWACK!
"You just staked that little begger boy!"
"He'll never be hungry again."

Wormwood kids are M.D.C. beings he may survive it!

I think a problem that no one has addressed yet, is the fact that there is no way the spikes wiegh 5 pounds. I'm sorry but there are full sized spears that weigh less. Much less assumming that the HT grows and produces 15 pound spikes!

IMHO, a spike weighs less than a pound... and I doubt they grow with the HT (unless it states that the spikes get bigger)...

Hystrix wrote:I think a problem that no one has addressed yet, is the fact that there is no way the spikes wiegh 5 pounds. I'm sorry but there are full sized spears that weigh less. Much less assumming that the HT grows and produces 15 pound spikes!

IMHO, a spike weighs less than a pound... and I doubt they grow with the HT (unless it states that the spikes get bigger)...

That's an issue of density, not size.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Hystrix wrote:I think a problem that no one has addressed yet, is the fact that there is no way the spikes wiegh 5 pounds. I'm sorry but there are full sized spears that weigh less. Much less assumming that the HT grows and produces 15 pound spikes!

IMHO, a spike weighs less than a pound... and I doubt they grow with the HT (unless it states that the spikes get bigger)...

That's an issue of density, not size.

So they become "denser" when the HT grows?

Hystrix wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Hystrix wrote:I think a problem that no one has addressed yet, is the fact that there is no way the spikes wiegh 5 pounds. I'm sorry but there are full sized spears that weigh less. Much less assumming that the HT grows and produces 15 pound spikes!

IMHO, a spike weighs less than a pound... and I doubt they grow with the HT (unless it states that the spikes get bigger)...

That's an issue of density, not size.

So they become "denser" when the HT grows?

Sure. not like there's a "Natural" density anyway.

Silver is pretty heavy. If the spikes got proportionally bigger, than yes they would be pretty fricken heavy.
-Matt

azazel1024 wrote:Silver is pretty heavy. If the spikes got proportionally bigger, than yes they would be pretty fricken heavy.
-Matt

Yeah, but 15 pounds? I'm sorry to be hung up on this, but it seems awfly heavy. I guess I'm not an expert on silver...

No I agree. I mentioned way back when I'd think it would be in the 5-8lb range. A 57mm AP round is 6lbs give or take a hair (British 6lb gun was 57mm) and silver being heavier, a 57x~200mm projectile would be about 7-8lbs, and that is awfully big for anything I'd consider a spike, even from a holy terror that was maybe 10-12ft tall.

Probably somewhat narrower, if longer. Say 30-40mm in diameter and 300mm long or so. Still way under 15lbs. Less than 10 and probably just around the 5lb range.
-Matt

azazel1024 wrote:No I agree. I mentioned way back when I'd think it would be in the 5-8lb range. A 57mm AP round is 6lbs give or take a hair (British 6lb gun was 57mm) and silver being heavier, a 57x~200mm projectile would be about 7-8lbs, and that is awfully big for anything I'd consider a spike, even from a holy terror that was maybe 10-12ft tall.

Probably somewhat narrower, if longer. Say 30-40mm in diameter and 300mm long or so. Still way under 15lbs. Less than 10 and probably just around the 5lb range.
-Matt

Again, These are just denser than equivlently sized spikes that might be made somewhere.

How does the density have anything to do with it? They are bigger therefore they weigh more.

That doesn't have anything to do with the density.

Or are we comparing the Holy Terror's spikes to ones you'd normally buy to stake a vampire with?

I am a little lost on where density comes in to play.
-Matt

azazel1024 wrote:How does the density have anything to do with it? They are bigger therefore they weigh more.

That doesn't have anything to do with the density.

Or are we comparing the Holy Terror's spikes to ones you'd normally buy to stake a vampire with?

I am a little lost on where density comes in to play.
-Matt

He's saying that the Spikes are too small to weight 15 pounds.

The problem is, density, not size, is the main thing. You can have a 1x1x1 square block of silver that weighs, say, 30 pounds. and one that weights 300 pounds, without increasing size. Desintiy is how MUCH silver is in the same amount of space.

Uh, well I guess.

Except that silver weighs 10.5g/cm^3. So it can't ever be denser than that.

It could be less if the silver is somehow made to be porous, but then it is a silver matrix impregnated with air. That or it is alloyed with something, and based on WB1 it has to be something like 90 or 95%+ pure silver to be effective against vampires.

Unless you are making some kind of porous silver stake/spike, you are pretty much stuck with the spike weighing 10.5g for ever cubic centimeter of the spike. So a 40mm diameter spike, 200mm long would weigh 5.8lbs on the nose. Neither more nor less...well unless you are using that porous silver I was talking about.

A solid substance's density cannot be altered unless you are putting it under the kind of stresses that you see in a white dwarf star (IE forcing it in to degenerate matter).

Now things like wood, plastics, etc can be denser, because you are talking about molecules and matrices of substances, not pure elements. You can make up a molecule with denser elements (of course it isn't really the same thing if it is composed different chemically), or have a molecular configuration that is denser, etc.

You can't make a configuration of atoms denser unless it is on a molecular scale (IE diamond, vs graphite, vs carbon nano tubes, vs buckyballs, etc. All Carbon, but arranged in different molecular configurations with other carbon atoms). No matter what you can't make them denser than their base density. You can make them less dense through various fun molecular arrangements, but not denser.
-Matt

I was hoping someone would play the atomic weight card vs. density argument. I was too lazy to do the research.

The back half of this thread has endumbened me just by reading it.

Citizen Lazlo wrote:It's a perfectly cromulent discussion.

Yeah I must've been drunk when I posted, because I realised it all makes perfect sense.

It's like when I've got two cartons of milk that are both 1 litre each, and one of them springs a leak after I drop it. What do I do?

Obviously I open the other carton and pour the first one in it, because it'll fit as long as I make the milk more dense

Rallan wrote:

Citizen Lazlo wrote:It's a perfectly cromulent discussion.

Yeah I must've been drunk when I posted, because I realised it all makes perfect sense.

It's like when I've got two cartons of milk that are both 1 litre each, and one of them springs a leak after I drop it. What do I do?

Obviously I open the other carton and pour the first one in it, because it'll fit as long as I make the milk more dense

As long as you have magic to do it with, sure.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Rallan wrote:

Citizen Lazlo wrote:It's a perfectly cromulent discussion.

Yeah I must've been drunk when I posted, because I realised it all makes perfect sense.

It's like when I've got two cartons of milk that are both 1 litre each, and one of them springs a leak after I drop it. What do I do?

Obviously I open the other carton and pour the first one in it, because it'll fit as long as I make the milk more dense

As long as you have magic to do it with, sure.

Odd, you didn't seem to mention magic in the entire rest of the thread. Almost as if you assumed this sort of thing was just naturally doable.

And I'm pretty sure that if Holy Terrors were shooting out some magical superdense silver then some mention would've been made of it, if for no other reason than "holy crap its super dense silver that doesn't exist naturally anywhere in the megaverse because it can't! My Holy Terror's pooping millions of credits from his fingertips every time he shoots a spike!" Why it's almost like you're saying "a wizard did it" after the fact to cover an otherwise completely unworkable suggestion.

Personally I'm gonna assume that if the book says five pounds of silver, it means five pounds of perfectly ordinary silver that takes up exacty as much room as all the other silver in the megaverse. After all, Holy Terrors are pretty damn big, and 5lbs is only about enough silver to make, oh, a good hefty candlestick or a moderate-to-large sex toy. (I did the maff, and 5lbs of silver would be enough to make a cylinder 1" across and 8" long, or a cone 2" across at the base and 12" long). Which is certainly a lot bigger than a bullet, but not an unreasonable size projectile for a giant hulking magical armor-plated badass to be shooting demons in the face with.

Rallan wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Rallan wrote:

Citizen Lazlo wrote:It's a perfectly cromulent discussion.

Yeah I must've been drunk when I posted, because I realised it all makes perfect sense.

It's like when I've got two cartons of milk that are both 1 litre each, and one of them springs a leak after I drop it. What do I do?

Obviously I open the other carton and pour the first one in it, because it'll fit as long as I make the milk more dense

As long as you have magic to do it with, sure.

Odd, you didn't seem to mention magic in the entire rest of the thread. Almost as if you assumed this sort of thing was just naturally doable.

And I'm pretty sure that if Holy Terrors were shooting out some magical superdense silver then some mention would've been made of it, if for no other reason than "holy crap its super dense silver that doesn't exist naturally anywhere in the megaverse because it can't! My Holy Terror's pooping millions of credits from his fingertips every time he shoots a spike!" Why it's almost like you're saying "a wizard did it" after the fact to cover an otherwise completely unworkable suggestion.

Personally I'm gonna assume that if the book says five pounds of silver, it means five pounds of perfectly ordinary silver that takes up exacty as much room as all the other silver in the megaverse. After all, Holy Terrors are pretty damn big, and 5lbs is only about enough silver to make, oh, a good hefty candlestick or a moderate-to-large sex toy. (I did the maff, and 5lbs of silver would be enough to make a cylinder 1" across and 8" long, or a cone 2" across at the base and 12" long). Which is certainly a lot bigger than a bullet, but not an unreasonable size projectile for a giant hulking magical armor-plated badass to be shooting demons in the face with.

Your assuming the game stats needed justification in the first place.

the Holy Terrors spikes weigh five pounds. This is not really up for debate, it says so plainly.

One poster claimed they were too small to be five pounds. However, this dosn't actually change the weight: ergo, if they are too small, they're magically superdense.

If it's not too small, then it's fine.

The weight dosn't change, just the number of wizards you need to hide the fact that a lot of Rifts stats are pulled outta nowhere.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:The weight dosn't change, just the number of wizards you need to hide the fact that a lot of Rifts stats are pulled outta nowhere.

Bingo!