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say652 wrote:And that's a Fine Houserule but not how the power actually works

None of what he's saying is a house rule, you are the one house ruling because again as has been pointed out repeatedly to you the power does not have the limitation you insist it has. The BEST you can do is argue that YOUR house rule is just as valid as the alternative what you CAN'T do is argue that your house rule is the canon (i.e. by the book) rule because it isn't, nor is anyone who thinks otherwise going to accept your house rule as the canon answer since again it isn't.

And your welcome to say that the power can be canceled when clearly it cannot.

say652 wrote:And that's a Fine Houserule but not how the power actually works

say652 wrote:And your welcome to say that the power can be canceled when clearly it cannot.

Those are wonderful illustrations of completely unsupported arguments. So prove it. PROVE, from the text, that the transformation power is either not a psychic power, or is a psychic power but is not subject to the rules about duration from Psyscape, pages 33-34. Find something in the text that actually says that the ONLY way for the transformation power to end is for the ISP base to be reduced to zero. Alternatively, find something that actually says that it is not a psychic power.

You won't be able to do either, of course, because what I've laid out is not a house rule. It is how the power works according to the rules as written, as I've repeatedly demonstrated by citing the actual text of the books.

dreicunan wrote:

say652 wrote:And that's a Fine Houserule but not how the power actually works

say652 wrote:And your welcome to say that the power can be canceled when clearly it cannot.

Those are wonderful illustrations of completely unsupported arguments. So prove it. PROVE, from the text, that the transformation power is either not a psychic power, or is a psychic power but is not subject to the rules about duration from Psyscape, pages 33-34. Find something in the text that actually says that the ONLY way for the transformation power to end is for the ISP base to be reduced to zero. Alternatively, find something that actually says that it is not a psychic power.

You won't be able to do either, of course, because what I've laid out is not a house rule. It is how the power works according to the rules as written, as I've repeatedly demonstrated by citing the actual text of the books.

Yet the only thing you have supporting your point of view is the lack of a word in a sentence.

Grammar is not a game mechanic.


The limitation of the Transformation power is how it was intended to be used trying to make things work how ever you want is house rules.


And that's ok.

say652 wrote:

dreicunan wrote:

say652 wrote:And that's a Fine Houserule but not how the power actually works

say652 wrote:And your welcome to say that the power can be canceled when clearly it cannot.

Those are wonderful illustrations of completely unsupported arguments. So prove it. PROVE, from the text, that the transformation power is either not a psychic power, or is a psychic power but is not subject to the rules about duration from Psyscape, pages 33-34. Find something in the text that actually says that the ONLY way for the transformation power to end is for the ISP base to be reduced to zero. Alternatively, find something that actually says that it is not a psychic power.

You won't be able to do either, of course, because what I've laid out is not a house rule. It is how the power works according to the rules as written, as I've repeatedly demonstrated by citing the actual text of the books.

Yet the only thing you have supporting your point of view is the lack of a word in a sentence.

Grammar is not a game mechanic.


The limitation of the Transformation power is how it was intended to be used trying to make things work how ever you want is house rules.


And that's ok.

Okay, WORDS in a book don't matter? The WORDS in a rule don't matter?



Grammar and syntax may not be game mechanics, but they are fundamental to figuring out what language means. You've effectively conceded that the rules-as-written function as I've claimed, because otherwise why would you now be making the claim that the transformation power having to run until the ISP base is depleted is what as INTENDED while offering no proof. Indeed, how could you offer proof? Such a proof would have to be offered on this forum through the written language, and that would involve using words, grammar, and syntax to attempt to communicate meaning.

Seriously, how did you even reach the (clearly erroneous to those of us for whom words do matter) conclusion that the power having to run the ISP base is depleted being what was "intended" without the use of words? And if you did use words, then doesn't that mean that words matter, which would thus invalidate your whole argument?

In my opinion, the ability to cancel the power isn't an ability because the text says it cannot be cancelled and the base must be depleted to end.
But hey, Feel free to house rule as you see fit.

say652 wrote:In my opinion, the ability to cancel the power isn't an ability because the text says it cannot be cancelled and the base must be depleted to end.
But hey, Feel free to house rule as you see fit.

PROVE that the text says that it cannot be cancelled. CITE the text. You don't even have to bother looking it up, because I already cited the relevant text from World Book 9 in this thread!

Which is probably why you aren't citing it, because as I already demonstrated the text doesn't say that it cannot be cancelled.

When the Base is expended it ends. Exactly what I've been saying

say652 wrote:When the Base is expended it ends. Exactly what I've been saying

Yes, if the base is reduced to zero the power ends. No one has disputed that. That isn't the same thing as saying "and you can't cancel it before the ISP base is depleted," which is what you have been arguing, and is not supported by the text.

dreicunan wrote:

say652 wrote:When the Base is expended it ends. Exactly what I've been saying

Yes, if the base is reduced to zero the power ends. No one has disputed that. That isn't the same thing as saying "and you can't cancel it before the ISP base is depleted," which is what you have been arguing, and is not supported by the text.

Neither is the ability to end the Transformation early when it clearly says it ends when the base is depleted.

The ability to end the transformation early is supported by Psyscape, pages 33-34, which I have cited earlier in this thread, and which makes it clear that psychics can end powers at will and do not have to let them run for the full duration.

dreicunan wrote:The ability to end the transformation early is supported by Psyscape, pages 33-34, which I have cited earlier in this thread, and which makes it clear that psychics can end powers at will and do not have to let them run for the full duration.

And for a standard Psychic power you are correct.

This is a unique Natural ability that only the Neo Humans have and in the power description it clearly states the limits, abilities and when the power ends.

Power ends when Base is depleted.

Nothing in the text in Psyscape pages 33-34 limits it to "standard" psychic powers; it is applicable to psychic powers, period.

I've already explained why the Transformation ability is a psychic power; every single item under "Natural Abilities" in every RCC in the Achilles Republic section of South America 2 is a psychic power. The transformation is listed under natural abilities in an RCC in that section. Therefore, it is a psychic ability. Ergo, as a psychic ability, it can be cancelled at will.

dreicunan wrote:Nothing in the text in Psyscape pages 33-34 limits it to "standard" psychic powers; it is applicable to psychic powers, period.

I've already explained why the Transformation ability is a psychic power; every single item under "Natural Abilities" in every RCC in the Achilles Republic section of South America 2 is a psychic power. The transformation is listed under natural abilities in an RCC in that section. Therefore, it is a psychic ability. Ergo, as a psychic ability, it can be cancelled at will.

Except in the power description it tells you When the power ends.

Plenty of other psychic powers give durations. That doesn't invalidate Psyscape pages 33-34.

And as the GM you have the right to House Rule as you see fit.

Yes, but the house rule here would be to declare that you can't end the transformation until the ISP base is reduced to zero. RAW, the transformation ends either upon being cancelled by the Neo-Human or upon the ISP base reaching zero.

The duration is listed with no option to cancel it, but book stacking you can build anything you want.

It would seem to me that there is plenty of support for a GM to be on pretty solid ground no matter which way they rule.
Which, to me is good.
A GM SHOULD be willing to make rulings in areas where things are not 100% clear...
...the less arbitrary those rulings are the better (in my opinion).

Book-stacking? Now, where would I get an idea like that...oh, I know!

From Page 1 of South America 2 below the picture: "Compatible with the entire Palladium Books Megaverse!"

The same quote is found in Psyscape on page 1.

If you aren't "book stacking," how on earth are you playing this game?

By the rules.

say652 wrote:By the rules.

Clearly not, if you consider using multiple books to be "book stacking," as the rules are spread out through multiple books (especially for things like magic and bionics).

Then we must agree to disagree because allowing the power to be on and off at will is Munchkin to me.

say652 wrote:Then we must agree to disagree because allowing the power to be on and off at will is Munchkin to me.

Feel free to have whatever opinion you want about how the rules are written (though I find the idea that the rule is "munchkin" to be ludicrous when there are so many character options that can be MDC with supernatural strength all the time with no expenditure of any resources), but that opinion doesn't change the fact that the rules as written are the rules.

And as written the power runs it's duration

say652 wrote:And as written the power runs it's duration

Unless the psychic chooses to end it early, as written on Psyscape pages 33-34.

dreicunan wrote:

say652 wrote:And as written the power runs it's duration

Unless the psychic chooses to end it early, as written on Psyscape pages 33-34.

And that's a great Houserule

say652 wrote:

dreicunan wrote:

say652 wrote:And as written the power runs it's duration

Unless the psychic chooses to end it early, as written on Psyscape pages 33-34.

And that's a great Houserule

The rules in World Book #12, Psyscape, are house rules?



What other official publications of Palladium books do you consider to be full of house rules (not counting Rifters, of course)?

I stand by the unique ability ruling. As written it runs it's duration

Selectively ignoring the rules is making house rules. As written, it can be cancelled at will, per Psyscape pages 33-34.

Not according to the power description

You keep saying that, and you continue to ignore the rule in Psyscape. Plenty of descriptions of psychic powers mention durations. The rule in psyscape make it clear that a psychic does not have to allow the power to run its full duration, but may cancel it at any time. The power doesn't say that it cannot be cancelled; thus, By ruke it can be cancelled.

It ends when the base is depleted

This has gone along far enough.