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 Post subject: Magii Athanatos
Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 5:42 am
  

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Comment: They/Them
The Magii Path is found on Rifter 16 pp 70-71 and Shadows of Light pg 36. There are slight differences in the writeups, but those are irrelevant for the purposes of this thread.

Can a Magii learn spells at any time, or are they limited to selecting spells upon gaining a level? The description of the Path suggests the former, but given the extremely high P.P.E. and free access to all disciplines of magic (for which I could see an argument for excluding elemental warlock spells, or limiting access to the corresponding Host) even with the lack of spell strength bonuses I honestly would have expected to hear them mentioned at least occasionally as one of the stronger character options.

If we assume they can only learn spells upon leveling, I think it could be fun to determine what a semi-optimal spell list would look like for them, dipping wildly as they would. It would consist of 6 spells from level 1-4, and 1 from levels 2-15, plus a handful of Host-related selections. The Necrosis Magii gets a ludicrous 7d6x10+P.E. P.P.E. at level 1, but with only a couple of Host spell options that leap out.

A somewhat tortured reading of the Path description leads one to think that while they might only learn spells upon leveling, they may learn ritual versions of spells at any time. This strikes me as a fun way to introduce a mostly ritual-based magician, who can both take advantage of that high P.P.E. and circumvent a low spell strength with default ritual strength


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 Post subject: Re: Magii Athanatos
Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:50 pm
  

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Monk

Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Posts: 15931
Location: Eastvale, calif
What it comes down to, the question is are they Mages or are they granted magic users.

The term Magi is used to denote the Scholars or Learned Men of the day. Yes, it has been translated to 'wizard' or 'scoceror' (scoceror having the meaning 'Drug User' in it's tongue of origin. So was misused to mean user of demon gained magic.) So as such the text was written about as concisely as the Costitution and it's first few amendments. Which is par for the course when talking about PB gamebook writing.

What was said means that that when the char levels up they are not limited to just common magic or just one specialty magic (there are three written out within the NB books. Cyber-, Flesh- & Mirror-.)

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 Post subject: Re: Magii Athanatos
Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:04 am
  

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Comment: They/Them
Magic can be generally divided into 4 varieties: Innate or Natural, Granted, Intuitive, and Learned. The Athanatos are interesting in that one could argue several of their abilities could be in one or more of these categories. Their Host abilites, stemming from their semi-divine origins, could be said to be any of the first three types while the spells gained as part of the Magii Path are either the third or fourth. The description talks about the Magii studying (learned) mysticism (intuitive). Admittedly, the word mysticism is used loosely by PB. Similarly, the word select is used with respect to spells in all four senses in various O.C.C. writeups, so that's no help either.

I'm inclined to consider the Magii an Intuitive caster, simply because not only are they otherwise the far and away superior Path choice for a character, but are arguably the single best magic using O.C.C.. That they aren't listed as getting bonuses to spell strength is noteworthy, but the Sorcerer and Nightbane Sorcerer don't get listed bonuses either. I'm not fully conversant with the errata, but that particular error seems fairly common.


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 Post subject: Re: Magii Athanatos
Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:36 pm
  

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Monk

Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Posts: 15931
Location: Eastvale, calif
There are three divisions of types of magic: Learned, Granted and Intuitive. Innate or Natural magic ability would fall into the Intuitive division because there is nothing that would divide them from it.
Or one could say the Innate or Natural magic is more racial magic than a division of the types of magic. But since racial magic is outside the baseline....*shrugs*

After rereading the text for the above, I noticed that the text very carefuly and not blatantly excludes Granted magic from the Magii's possible spells. This might be a part of the total exclusion of all the granted magic (Witch, warlock & priest) magic and classes from the setting that the NB game uses.
The text only talks about common/regular magic and specialty magic being accessible to the Magii when the text defines what it means by all magic.

The spell str. for all magic classes is written into the magic section of the NB core book.
Edit( the standard spell str level up bonuses are listed in R48 on page 24.)

The text talks about the Magii being Scholars. Then the text goes on to say they study Science, Lore and Mysticism. None of which say they study how to cast magic. As such, the meanings you are using for your arguments are out of context.

I believe that the text was written (or rewritten) in such a way that the Magii Path (not a CC) could, at the GM's choice, be ether be a Learned Mage's path or a Intuitive Magic user path.

Or even maybe the writer assumed that it was obvious the the Magii are Learned Mage, and forgot to insert the text to deliberative say that. (I've seen this before with many of the Rifter magic classes. The Laser Mage is the one that comes to my mind.)


If I was to play this Path I would ask the GM to rule that it's a learned mage type of magic user.

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Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Magii Athanatos
Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:42 pm
  

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Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:08 am
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Comment: They/Them
The page citation regarding spell strength being omitted is relevant. The final sentence is a stated opinion in keeping with the question initially posed, and it's sad that it being phrased as an opinion is itself noteworthy. The rest of that post falls into what people have apparently come to expect. In order:

There are multiple models detailing varieties of magic found in Palladium Games. Examples include PFRPG 2nd Main pp 182-183 and MoM1 pg 7. These are discussed either in relation to different cultures within a setting, as disciplines possessed by specific character classes, and otherwise in broad terms. To go beyond that, like you did, into claiming there is a baseline from which clearly extant forms of magic are outside is to once again expose that bias demonstrating an unwillingness or inability to be objective. There is no baseline. There are examples from which one may generalize.

The descriptive text for the Magii path (by which I mean excluding skills, O.C.C. bonuses, P.P.E., and I.S.P.) is two paragraphs in length. In no way do those paragraphs "very carefuly and not blatantly excludes Granted magic from the Magii's possible spells." There is simply no text stating either way. In that the setting does not include any granted disciplines of magic which use spells outside the invocation list, the matter is left indeterminate in the case of a Magii in a multiversal game, although as I said above limiting or banning e.g. elemental spells seems reasonable. The claim that granted magic is totally excluded from the Nightbane setting, however, is false, as seen with the Priest of Night in the Main Book.

That comparing the descriptive text and the common usage within PB of words found within that text is argued to constitute an argument is to take the action out of context.

While one can only guess what "insult the text to deliberative say that" was supposed to mean, the Laser Mage O.C.C. in Rifter 38 is explicity described as gaining spells intuitively. To suggest the opposite when it takes a few seconds to verify makes one wonder if the error is due to failing to look it up, part of a deliberate attempt to spread falsehoods, or stems from a desire to be called out. So which is it, drewkitty ~..~: Are you lazy, malicious, or a masochist?

As for the Magii path, while the intuitive/learned nature of their Path magic is left vague, the consequences for it being treated as learned are clear. All other paths become superfluous, and in a megaversal game they become almost the de facto answer to questions about the strongest practitioners of magics. That threads within this forum don't often bring up the Magii Athanatos are due to several factors, but a rejection of such obvious power geeking seems likely one. (edit:typo in de facto, daddio)


Last edited by Curbludgeon on Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Magii Athanatos
Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:54 pm
  

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Monk

Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Posts: 15931
Location: Eastvale, calif
"very carefully"
The text says they can use any Spell or Ritual regardless of the specialization. (yes I paraphrased w/o changing the meaning just a bit to show I understand the text.)
Granted magic, be it from elementals, demons or gods are not invocations (which is what the books call wizard/mage spells)
"not Blatantly" means without fanfare. So no it didn't specifically say no elemental spells..blah blah blah.....

That I haven't read the laser mystic text in quite a while....more then 5 years before today....it is understandable that I'd get some of the details incorrect.*waves hand swating a fly away.*
If there is anything to be said it (the laser mystic) is that not my favorite rifter class. And saying it that way would be a massive understatement.

Since I've noticed you trying to argue that your house rules are canon, I could ask you if you lazy, malicious, or a masochist?
--------------
In conclusion, it is the individual GMs that are going to have to make a ruling for their own games how this class works in regard to acquiring new magic: is is like a wizard or like a mystic.
Anything else here is just opinions that the GM can take into advisement for his or her choice.

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 Post subject: Re: Magii Athanatos
Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:46 pm
  

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Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:08 am
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Comment: They/Them
There are multiple types of granted magic practitioners that access the invocation list, such as the Priest of Night. In some settings, such as HU, it's just called the spell list, and it's what you chose to call common/regular spells.

I'd point out that I have in no way argued about the canonicity of the nature of the Magii Path spells, and have expressly done the opposite in considering the consequences of different treatments on the matter. The vagueness of the Path's descriptive text has been acknowledged from the beginning. What you imagine to be a conclusion was clearly the starting point.

Since you have more than once accused me of claiming house rules as canon, I invite you to point out an example of this. Afterward I'll see how long it takes to find 10 examples of you doing it.


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 Post subject: Re: Magii Athanatos
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:10 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
Posts: 5980
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Granted magic, be it from elementals, demons or gods are not invocations (which is what the books call wizard/mage spells)

what about priests who cast wizspells


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 Post subject: Re: Magii Athanatos
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:40 pm
  

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Monk

Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Posts: 15931
Location: Eastvale, calif
Axelmania wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Granted magic, be it from elementals, demons or gods are not invocations (which is what the books call wizard/mage spells)

what about priests who cast wizspells


Covered that.

Unless the priest changed its class from a wizard class, all their magic comes from their Deity. a.k.a. Granted magic.

_________________
Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own opinions or house rules, they need to be listed/declareds as your own opinions or house rules.

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 Post subject: Re: Magii Athanatos
Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 6:43 am
  

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Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:08 am
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Comment: They/Them
It's been fun to try to put together a list for a Magii under the assumption that they can only cast the spells granted upon leveling as spells, with other spells both learnable and castable only as rituals. There are a couple of takeaways. A good-aligned Necrosis that's trying to play against stereotype doesn't make much of the Host ability selections. Call Ectoplasm from Others is an interesting P.P.E. draining spell, Traitorous Hand is a fun magical disarm attempt, and access to Restoration is nice enough, but Host selections are definitely keyed towards a fear-mongering pseudo-Necromancer.

For Path spells, Opening the Mirror Wall is a fantastic spell to pull from Mirrormagic, with Lens of True Sight being a nice level 1 utility choice. Sculpt Flesh takes advantage of the Nec. Magii's high P.P.E., and along with Heal Living Flesh are fun level 1 options. Meld Living Flesh and Bone is arguably the signature Fleshcrafter spell, but to the extent that all Fleshsculpting is already to some degree a ritual I don't know if avoiding the Magii's additional ritual time increase would warrant a spell slot. In a game that only used Nightbane sources, save for perhaps Dream Senses and Astral Portal from Between the Shadows I think the other selections would just come from the invocation list in the Main book.

A more interesting topic might be what could be an optimal spell list if the flood gates were opened and a Magii was in a megaversal game. I suppose it could be thought of in two categories, with one excluding warlock spells and the other having no disciplines barred. As an example, what armor spell if any should be selected? Space Magic has a couple of nice choices for such whose higher cost is less of a hurdle for this character. Should they bother with any sort of offensive magic? How about Ocean Magic's Grow Tentacles or Strength of the Whale? The downside to Life Force Magic is obviated entirely when a character can regenerate 1d6x10/melee, even with it being pretty against setting conceits.

I'd be interested in suggestions for putting together a hand-picked list of spells usable in a combat time frame.


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