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 Post subject: Spell Strength maximums
Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:01 pm
  

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D-Bee

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RUE, page 346, Saving Throws wrote:
Magic: 12-16 depending on the power level of the spell caster. 16 or higher to save vs ritual magic.


Shifters with a link to the supernatural (Gods of Magic) get to enjoy additional spell strength bonuses; in theory - if there were no maximum - this would allow them to exceed the maximum shown save of 16 (by having a Spell Strength of 18 by level 13, if they remain faithful to their link), assuming spell strength is just added on top and does not cap at 16 for incantations with PCs.

However, this would also allow them to exceed the save for ritual magic (which is 16), and even the god Thoth himself (spell save of 17) - who is supposed to know more about magic than pretty much anyone in the Palladium Megaverse. For reference, Thoth is a 30th level Diabolist, 20th level Rune Master (the last?), 20th level Wizard, 15th level Summoner, and a 20th level Alchemist

Are we to believe that a 13th level Shifter with a link to the supernatural Gods of Magic (which could be to Thoth himself, after all) is somehow more potent in spells and incantations than the highest god of magic in the Palladium Megaverse?


Last edited by malaclypse on Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:47 pm
  

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malaclypse wrote:
RUE, page 346, Saving Throws wrote:
Magic: 12-16 depending on the power level of the spell caster. 16 or higher to save vs ritual magic.


Should this be taken to mean that the maximum spell strength (for an incantation) cannot exceed 16?


16 is the maximum without any bonuses that come from something over than leveling.

Quote:
Shifters with a link to the supernatural (Gods of Magic) get to enjoy additional spell strength bonuses; in theory - if there were no maximum - this would allow them to exceed the maximum shown save of 16 (by having a Spell Strength of 18 by level 13, if they remain faithful to their link).


This would likely allow them to reach Spell Strength 18. Several Gods have a spell strength of 18, so it A: proves that it is possible to break 16, at least for divine beings, and B: at least in theory therefore a link to a divine being should help you break it.

Quote:
However, this would also allow them to exceed the save for ritual magic (which is 16), and even the god Thoth himself (spell save of 17) - who is supposed to know more about magic than pretty much anyone in the Palladium Megaverse. For reference, Thoth is a 30th level Diabolist, 20th level Rune Master (the last?), 20th level Wizard, 15th level Summoner, and a 20th level Alchemist


A bonus to spell strength is just that, a bonus. The base save for an invocation is 12. the base for a ritual is 16. Your bonus adds to both. So a mage with +4 Spell Strength would apply to the base 16 for ritual magic.

Quote:
Are we to believe that a 13th level Shifter with a link to the supernatural Gods of Magic (which could be to Thoth himself, after all) is somehow more potent in spells and incantations than the highest god of magic in the Palladium Megaverse?


Thoth isn't even the God with the highest Spell Strength in his own pantheon. Set has higher at 18. Though it should be remembered he's forgotton most of what he knows and so his spell strength is probablly lower than what it would be if his memories returned.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:24 am
  

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Nekira Sudacne wrote:
16 is the maximum without any bonuses that come from something over than leveling.


Where are you getting this from? Source?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
This would likely allow them to reach Spell Strength 18. Several Gods have a spell strength of 18, so it A: proves that it is possible to break 16, at least for divine beings, and B: at least in theory therefore a link to a divine being should help you break it.


I have seen two with 18. All are mega-powerful gods which are far beyond the reach of any PC.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
A bonus to spell strength is just that, a bonus. The base save for an invocation is 12. the base for a ritual is 16. Your bonus adds to both. So a mage with +4 Spell Strength would apply to the base 16 for ritual magic.


RUE page 187 wrote:
No Spell Strength bonuses usually apply to rituals, a potential victim of ritual magic always needs to roll a 1 6 or higher to escape its enchantment.
I wish it did apply, it would make much more sense than having a regular spell cast being as powerful as a ritual when "in all cases" ritual magic is much more powerful (again, RUE).

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Thoth isn't even the God with the highest Spell Strength in his own pantheon. Set has higher at 18. Though it should be remembered he's forgotton most of what he knows and so his spell strength is probablly lower than what it would be if his memories returned.


Set is technically in a different pantheon, but I know what you're saying. Either way, while Thoth has forgotten some of what he knows (don't see any support for "most"), he's "the most talented god ever", and ends up at 17. So maybe one or two others have 18. That's the absolute pinnacle of magic strength in Palladium.

Yet we're to believe a Shifter who links with some of these beings can either match or exceed them in spell strength?

I don't buy it. PC casters should be capped at 16, the exception being Circle Masters (who explicitly go higher, but they also don't cast spells).


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Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:39 pm
  

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
malaclypse wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
16 is the maximum without any bonuses that come from something over than leveling.


Where are you getting this from? Source?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
This would likely allow them to reach Spell Strength 18. Several Gods have a spell strength of 18, so it A: proves that it is possible to break 16, at least for divine beings, and B: at least in theory therefore a link to a divine being should help you break it.


I have seen two with 18. All are mega-powerful gods which are far beyond the reach of any PC.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
A bonus to spell strength is just that, a bonus. The base save for an invocation is 12. the base for a ritual is 16. Your bonus adds to both. So a mage with +4 Spell Strength would apply to the base 16 for ritual magic.


RUE page 187 wrote:
No Spell Strength bonuses usually apply to rituals, a potential victim of ritual magic always needs to roll a 1 6 or higher to escape its enchantment.
I wish it did apply, it would make much more sense than having a regular spell cast being as powerful as a ritual when "in all cases" ritual magic is much more powerful (again, RUE).


Well that's one rule change in RUE I missed, thanks for pointing it out

Quote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Thoth isn't even the God with the highest Spell Strength in his own pantheon. Set has higher at 18. Though it should be remembered he's forgotton most of what he knows and so his spell strength is probablly lower than what it would be if his memories returned.


Set is technically in a different pantheon, but I know what you're saying. Either way, while Thoth has forgotten some of what he knows (don't see any support for "most"), he's "the most talented god ever", and ends up at 17. So maybe one or two others have 18. That's the absolute pinnacle of magic strength in Palladium.

Yet we're to believe a Shifter who links with some of these beings can either match or exceed them in spell strength?


Why not? it's not too difficult to wind up with a PC who's stronger than Thor, or has higher combat bonuses than Ares. Gods in palladium are strong but not unmatchable or unbeatable.

Quote:
I don't buy it. PC casters should be capped at 16, the exception being Circle Masters (who explicitly go higher, but they also don't cast spells).


Why should they be capped? It's not like the system generates any problems if its' passed. What's your source for saying that 18 represents any kind of mechanical cap? Or that no PC can exceed a god for that matter. Gods are in the game for a variety of reasons: Setting flavor, faction crafting, potential power granters/dealmakers for certain PC types, and possible challanges. Defeating a God should be nigh impossible for most mortals, but not actually impossible, and I don't see how a shifter with a spell strength of 18-19 would do that. even if PC's exceed a god in one area that is only a small overall range of their abilities.

There's no reason to think 18 represents some kind of maximium no being can exceed mechanically or systemically. Gods are powerful supernatural beings. Nothing less, nothing more.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:49 pm
  

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Nekira Sudacne wrote:
malaclypse wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
16 is the maximum without any bonuses that come from something over than leveling.


Where are you getting this from? Source?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
This would likely allow them to reach Spell Strength 18. Several Gods have a spell strength of 18, so it A: proves that it is possible to break 16, at least for divine beings, and B: at least in theory therefore a link to a divine being should help you break it.


I have seen two with 18. All are mega-powerful gods which are far beyond the reach of any PC.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
A bonus to spell strength is just that, a bonus. The base save for an invocation is 12. the base for a ritual is 16. Your bonus adds to both. So a mage with +4 Spell Strength would apply to the base 16 for ritual magic.


RUE page 187 wrote:
No Spell Strength bonuses usually apply to rituals, a potential victim of ritual magic always needs to roll a 1 6 or higher to escape its enchantment.
I wish it did apply, it would make much more sense than having a regular spell cast being as powerful as a ritual when "in all cases" ritual magic is much more powerful (again, RUE).


Well that's one rule change in RUE I missed, thanks for pointing it out


I'm fairly certain that the rule was in place before RUE. I think it was stated in one of the Q&A sections in a pre-RUE Rifter, but I currently don't feel like going through them to find it.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:21 am
  

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Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Why not? it's not too difficult to wind up with a PC who's stronger than Thor, or has higher combat bonuses than Ares.


This, in and of itself, is a problem. No single PC should be more powerful than a god. Full stop. I've seen players exploit and abuse the system to have PS higher than Atlas.. you know, the guy who is supposedly the physically strongest being in the multiverse. This shouldn't be allowed IMO.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Gods in palladium are strong but not unmatchable or unbeatable.


Of course they aren't. But no single PC should be able to do it.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Why should they be capped? It's not like the system generates any problems if its' passed. What's your source for saying that 18 represents any kind of mechanical cap?


Pretty sure I put that in the initial post... 16 should be the cap for incantations. I take the Shifter spell strength bonuses to mean they attain the maximum of 16 sooner, not that they can exceed it.

RUE, page 346, Saving Throws wrote:
Magic: 12-16 depending on the power level of the spell caster. 16 or higher to save vs ritual magic.


More support:

Negate Magic spell, RUE page 216 wrote:
12,13, 14, or 15 is needed for spell magic depending on the experience level of the mage (usually 12 or 13 is needed), meanwhile 16 or higher to
save vs ritual magic.


NO source (other than that listing actual Gods of the Palladium Megaverse) that I've seen lists anyone with a spell strength as being higher than 16.

Even Alistair Dunscon - arguably one of the more powerful quasi-mortal magic users (who is now an immortal supernatural being):

Federation of Magic (Revised), page 40 wrote:
"Knows all spell magic (as found in the Rifts® RPG and this book), all Necromancer Magic, and has an excellent understanding of Bio-Wizardry, Bio-Wizard devices and the use of symbiotes (this is the next area of magic he 'd like to master over the next century or two). Spell strength is 15


The Three "Lords of Magic" - literally gods of magic themselves - don't have a spell strength higher than 17 among them.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Or that no PC can exceed a god for that matter. Gods are in the game for a variety of reasons: Setting flavor, faction crafting, potential power granters/dealmakers for certain PC types, and possible challanges. Defeating a God should be nigh impossible for most mortals, but not actually impossible, and I don't see how a shifter with a spell strength of 18-19 would do that. even if PC's exceed a god in one area that is only a small overall range of their abilities.


Disagree. No individual PC should be more powerful than a God. I'm not talking about having a PC with a PB higher than a God that isn't all that attractive to begin with. I'm talking about a PC who exceeds a God on the God's main area - such as a PC having a higher spell strength than a God of Magic.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
There's no reason to think 18 represents some kind of maximium no being can exceed mechanically or systemically. Gods are powerful supernatural beings. Nothing less, nothing more.


Reason: Saving throws go to 16, not higher, for incantations. This is explicitly pointed out in the first post and previously in this one.

I honestly don't know how anyone could reasonably think any PC should be as powerful - or more powerful - than a god with literally thousands (tens of thousands, in some cases) of M.D.C. and P.P.E. and so on and so forth.

The only exception might be if there's some sort of deific campaign where all the plays play the gods of a pantheon or something along those lines.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:44 pm
  

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But you said it yourself, the point I'm trying to get at. These are gods with Thousands or Tens of Thousands of MDC/PPE. Even if a mortal somehow had a Spell Strength higher than the Three Lords of Magic, he would still be a Mortal, without the vast reserves of PPE, Far less MDC, lower bonuses to save vs. Magic, no access to various Divine abilities.

In short, having a Spell Strength higher doesn't mean your more powerful. Take a shifter with a Spell Strength of 18 vs. Thoth. Do you really think he'd win a fight with Thoth? no? Then he's not more powerful than he is? that's the point I was trying to say. Having an individual attribute higher than a god of that attribute doesn't mean your better at that thing. They're comprehensively more powerful than you in toughness, Magic reserves, depth of spell knowlege, and probablly gear and a variety of other things too.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:24 pm
  

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No one said anything about fighting Gods, though, other than you.

My post wasn't, "hey, if you have a higher spell strength than Thoth, it means you can beat Thoth!" Well, no... it doesn't. But it does mean your magic is more potent than Thoth's magic, which doesn't make any sense at all unless you're Set or the one or two others with a spell strength higher than Thoth's.

And what do you mean, having a higher spell strength doesn't make you more powerful? Really? Then why have it? Why not just have the save be 12, and that's the end of it?

That makes no sense. Of course it makes you more powerful - in terms of magic, at least. That's kind of the point - higher spell strength means you can't save as easily = more potent magic.

Having a higher attribute than someone else at something literally means you're better at that thing. That's exactly what it means. I don't know how you could say any differently.

I'm pretty baffled by that entire post, really.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:32 pm
  

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
malaclypse wrote:
No one said anything about fighting Gods, though, other than you.

My post wasn't, "hey, if you have a higher spell strength than Thoth, it means you can beat Thoth!" Well, no... it doesn't. But it does mean your magic is more potent than Thoth's magic, which doesn't make any sense at all unless you're Set or the one or two others with a spell strength higher than Thoth's.

And what do you mean, having a higher spell strength doesn't make you more powerful? Really? Then why have it? Why not just have the save be 12, and that's the end of it?


It doesn't make you more powerful than the Lords of Magic, not that it doesn't make you more powerful at all. I was refering to the same subject as the previous paragraph.

Quote:
That makes no sense. Of course it makes you more powerful - in terms of magic, at least. That's kind of the point - higher spell strength means you can't save as easily = more potent magic.

Having a higher attribute than someone else at something literally means you're better at that thing. That's exactly what it means. I don't know how you could say any differently.

I'm pretty baffled by that entire post, really.


It means your powerful in terms of how hard your spells are to save against. The point is spell strength is not the only mesure of a magic user. If you have Spell Strength of 18 and no spells that have a save, are you a better mage than Thoth? No? I didn't think so.

The mesure of a mage is a combination of many factors, of which Spell Strength is only one factor. Of course having a higher spell strength than Thoth means you have a higher spell strength than Thoth, that's a tautology. But it doesn't mean you know as many spells as he does, or have the PPE reserves to fuel them. So he's still a better mage all around than you are, as i've said repeatedly.

So sure. Having a higher spell strength means you have a higher spell strength. but when it comes to mesuring the power of a Magic user, I've found PPE reserves and specific spells/magic catagories known being much more useful indicators of magic power. Spell Strength is a Factor, but not the most important one. So even if you posit a mortal with a Spell Strength of 18, Thoth is still the stronger magic user even if his spell strength is one lower.

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You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:56 am
  

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malaclypse wrote:
... even the god Thoth himself (spell save of 17) - who is supposed to know more about magic than pretty much anyone in the Palladium Megaverse. For reference, Thoth is a 30th level Diabolist, 20th level Rune Master (the last?), 20th level Wizard, 15th level Summoner, and a 20th level Alchemist ...

Greetings and Salutations. Just a few notes.

1: Wizards are a PF2 class. Wizards, at level 15, have a Spell Strength of 17 (with no increase listed after level 15). Since Thoth is a Level 20 Wizard, that means his spell strength is correct for his class. Note: Diabolist and Summoners do not have specialized magic and don't cast spells in the traditional sense. Alchemist can cast spells, but that's because they're also Wizards (Alchemist being a multi-class). I can't say for Rune Masters.

2: Since EVERY 15th level Wizard would have a Spell Strength of 17 (standard advancement, nothing fancy or special), 16 would not logically be the limit of their Spell Strength.

3: Many spells have effects (such as Range, Duration, and Damage) based upon the caster's level. Since Thoth is Level 20 in his spell magic, that means he has 5 levels higher than any mortal wizard (Dragon's are the only other class I can recall that have 20 levels, but their spell strength, P.P.E., and other magical abilities probably won't be as high).

4: As mentioned above, Thoth has a massive spell list to choose from (every known spell, plus many spells to others).

So if Thoth and a human Shifter (with a pact) both cast Armor of Ithan on someone, which one is better? How about if both cast Call Lightning? How about Fly as the Eagle? How about which can cast the most exotic spell? Which can cast a Spell of Legend from their personal P.P.E. pool and still have energy to spare?

So while in certain situations (when the only difference in the spell is Spell Strength and nothing else) a few extremely exceptional Shifters (level 13 is supposed to be rare, and not all will have the Pact of Magic, and not all would prove themselves worthy) might be better at Thoth at a few very specific spells, Thoth remains superior at magic in many other ways. Farewell and safe journeys.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:36 pm
  

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related question....do the books say that the spell str bonuses don't effect the ritual spel str? (or that the bonus to spell str only applies to incantation?) if so, where? (in other words back your assertion up with supportive text.)

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:48 pm
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
related question....do the books say that the spell str bonuses don't effect the ritual spel str? (or that the bonus to spell str only applies to incantation?) if so, where? (in other words back your assertion up with supportive text.)

Greetings and Salutations. This was quoted earlier. Page 187 of RUE. To add to it, Page 185 of PF2 and page 166 of the original Rifts main book. Each state no bonuses apply to rituals (well, RUE qualifies this with "usually"). Farewell and safe journeys.

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Official PDF versions of Rifter #45, #52, and #55 can be found at DriveThruRPG.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:06 pm
  

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*nods*

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:05 pm
  

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Nekira Sudacne wrote:
malaclypse wrote:
No one said anything about fighting Gods, though, other than you.

My post wasn't, "hey, if you have a higher spell strength than Thoth, it means you can beat Thoth!" Well, no... it doesn't. But it does mean your magic is more potent than Thoth's magic, which doesn't make any sense at all unless you're Set or the one or two others with a spell strength higher than Thoth's.

And what do you mean, having a higher spell strength doesn't make you more powerful? Really? Then why have it? Why not just have the save be 12, and that's the end of it?


It doesn't make you more powerful than the Lords of Magic, not that it doesn't make you more powerful at all. I was refering to the same subject as the previous paragraph.

Quote:
That makes no sense. Of course it makes you more powerful - in terms of magic, at least. That's kind of the point - higher spell strength means you can't save as easily = more potent magic.

Having a higher attribute than someone else at something literally means you're better at that thing. That's exactly what it means. I don't know how you could say any differently.

I'm pretty baffled by that entire post, really.


It means your powerful in terms of how hard your spells are to save against. The point is spell strength is not the only mesure of a magic user. If you have Spell Strength of 18 and no spells that have a save, are you a better mage than Thoth? No? I didn't think so.

The mesure of a mage is a combination of many factors, of which Spell Strength is only one factor. Of course having a higher spell strength than Thoth means you have a higher spell strength than Thoth, that's a tautology. But it doesn't mean you know as many spells as he does, or have the PPE reserves to fuel them. So he's still a better mage all around than you are, as i've said repeatedly.

So sure. Having a higher spell strength means you have a higher spell strength. but when it comes to mesuring the power of a Magic user, I've found PPE reserves and specific spells/magic catagories known being much more useful indicators of magic power. Spell Strength is a Factor, but not the most important one. So even if you posit a mortal with a Spell Strength of 18, Thoth is still the stronger magic user even if his spell strength is one lower.


I think we're crossing wires here. You seem to be making the case about "overall power level". My points are in regards strictly to spell strength alone. And really, few - if any - spellcasters have a bunch of spells that don't have a save.

My point is that, regardless of how much PPE you have, how many spells you know, a PC shouldn't be able to exceed a god of magic in the domain of magic on any ground - unless you consider knowing a certain form of magic that the god in question doesn't know "excelling" (say, you know Blue Flame magic and Thoth doesn't, for example). To me, that's not exceeding Thoth on his own ground, it's just knowing something obscure that he doesn't (or, who knows, maybe a part of him does - he doesn't seem to be able to access all of his knowledge due to the whole transformation thing).


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:09 pm
  

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Prysus wrote:
[justify]
malaclypse wrote:
... even the god Thoth himself (spell save of 17) - who is supposed to know more about magic than pretty much anyone in the Palladium Megaverse. For reference, Thoth is a 30th level Diabolist, 20th level Rune Master (the last?), 20th level Wizard, 15th level Summoner, and a 20th level Alchemist ...

Greetings and Salutations. Just a few notes.

1: Wizards are a PF2 class. Wizards, at level 15, have a Spell Strength of 17 (with no increase listed after level 15). Since Thoth is a Level 20 Wizard, that means his spell strength is correct for his class. Note: Diabolist and Summoners do not have specialized magic and don't cast spells in the traditional sense. Alchemist can cast spells, but that's because they're also Wizards (Alchemist being a multi-class). I can't say for Rune Masters.

2: Since EVERY 15th level Wizard would have a Spell Strength of 17 (standard advancement, nothing fancy or special), 16 would not logically be the limit of their Spell Strength.


Fair. But since this post was specifically about Shifters, and RUE, I'm not sure Wizards (which are PF material) would apply to it. Still, the example is a good one of a spellcaster exceeding 16 by canon, so kudos for that.

Prysus wrote:
3: Many spells have effects (such as Range, Duration, and Damage) based upon the caster's level. Since Thoth is Level 20 in his spell magic, that means he has 5 levels higher than any mortal wizard (Dragon's are the only other class I can recall that have 20 levels, but their spell strength, P.P.E., and other magical abilities probably won't be as high).

4: As mentioned above, Thoth has a massive spell list to choose from (every known spell, plus many spells to others).

So if Thoth and a human Shifter (with a pact) both cast Armor of Ithan on someone, which one is better? How about if both cast Call Lightning? How about Fly as the Eagle? How about which can cast the most exotic spell? Which can cast a Spell of Legend from their personal P.P.E. pool and still have energy to spare?


Better at what, or in what way(s)? Thoth has more PPE and a larger pool to draw upon. But so what? Who's got the higher save? That's the point I was making. No mortal should be able to exceed a God of Magic on spellcasting saves.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:03 pm
  

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
malaclypse wrote:
I think we're crossing wires here. You seem to be making the case about "overall power level". My points are in regards strictly to spell strength alone. And really, few - if any - spellcasters have a bunch of spells that don't have a save.

My point is that, regardless of how much PPE you have, how many spells you know, a PC shouldn't be able to exceed a god of magic in the domain of magic on any ground - unless you consider knowing a certain form of magic that the god in question doesn't know "excelling" (say, you know Blue Flame magic and Thoth doesn't, for example). To me, that's not exceeding Thoth on his own ground, it's just knowing something obscure that he doesn't (or, who knows, maybe a part of him does - he doesn't seem to be able to access all of his knowledge due to the whole transformation thing).


I guess my point then, is I disagree, I don't see any basis for asserting a PC shouldn't be able to top a God in any area under any circumstance.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:50 pm
  

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malaclypse wrote:
Fair. But since this post was specifically about Shifters, and RUE, I'm not sure Wizards (which are PF material) would apply to it. Still, the example is a good one of a spellcaster exceeding 16 by canon, so kudos for that.

Greetings and Salutations. Well, you're the one who wanted to discuss Thoth, and he is neither a Shifter nor in RUE. By your own original post ...

malaclypse wrote:
For reference, Thoth is a 30th level Diabolist, 20th level Rune Master (the last?), 20th level Wizard, 15th level Summoner, and a 20th level Alchemist

As such, it definitely seemed fitting to discuss Wizards, since Thoth is one. If you discount Wizards, then you should also discount Thoth's ability to cast magic as a whole (which would make the comparison odd).

malaclypse wrote:
Better at what, or in what way(s)? Thoth has more PPE and a larger pool to draw upon. But so what? Who's got the higher save? That's the point I was making. No mortal should be able to exceed a God of Magic on spellcasting saves.

And see, you keep trying to say all of magic is tied back to Spell Strength, but it's not. I'm going to use the PF2 main book as my reference, as PF is the setting I know best and I did a lot of Excel data entry on the main book spells, which makes it easy for me to search/find information. A lot of this should be comparable in Rifts.

There are 182 Invocation spells.
59 have a Standard save (2 of which have a penalty to the one making a saving throw).
2 have a Save vs. Magic (which would bring it up to 61), but the Saving Throw doesn't do very much (Carpet of Adhesion and Immobilization, where you're affected regardless if you save or not, it's just a matter of how long).
104 with "None" for the saving throw.
2 have a Save set at 18 (skill does not matter).
1 has a save vs. Ritual.
4 have a Horror Factor save (1 with a Save vs Magic as well, but that's set at 16 regardless of skill).
7 have a Dodge (no Save otherwise).
2 require a Mind Block to resist.
1 has a Battle of Wills.

12 spells have a Range benefit based on level*.
130 have a Duration based on level*.
33 have some other benefit based on level* (such as Damage, increased S.D.C., greater area affect, more targets affected, etc.).

*As these are based on level, Thoth will have an edge in each of these categories vs. any mortal caster.

So out of 182 different possibilities, a Shifter with a Spell Strength of 18 has a slight advantage in 61 situations (and 2 of those situations Thoth can probably do whatever he needs to before a save even matters). In the other 121 situations, Spell Strength is irrelevant (effectively twice as many situations). In at least 130 situations (probably more, but I didn't feel like checking for how many overlaps there were) Thoth will have 1 or more advantages over the Shifter.

malaclypse wrote:
Are we to believe that a 13th level Shifter with a link to the supernatural Gods of Magic (which could be to Thoth himself, after all) is somehow more potent in spells and incantations than the highest god of magic in the Palladium Megaverse?

Since I'm responding (again), does it ever actually say that Thoth is the highest god of magic in the Palladium Megaverse? I'm reading his write-up, and I don't see it. I see him listed as "possibly the most talented god ever," but that's not necessarily related to magic, just that he's talented (which covers more than just magic).

Dragons & Gods, page 143, Thoth, Lord of Wisdom wrote:
Thoth symbolizes wisdom, knowledge, and invention. Yet, despite his learning and knowledge, there is a bit of larceny in his heart, for he admires cunning, deception, and people who use their wits and a quick tongue. Thus, he is the patron of magic, and of all fast speaking, thieving, quick-witted creatures.

From I see, he's the patron of magic, but not because he is magic incarnate, but because he values wisdom and people with wits (which would overlap with magic users).

He has the wisdom of a Wizard, and a Wizard of his level would have a Spell Strength of 17. His spell strength is from knowledge, not innate, and in many ways it seems that's the part you actually don't like.

malaclypse wrote:
My point is that, regardless of how much PPE you have, how many spells you know, a PC shouldn't be able to exceed a god of magic in the domain of magic on any ground - unless you consider knowing a certain form of magic that the god in question doesn't know "excelling" (say, you know Blue Flame magic and Thoth doesn't, for example). To me, that's not exceeding Thoth on his own ground, it's just knowing something obscure that he doesn't (or, who knows, maybe a part of him does - he doesn't seem to be able to access all of his knowledge due to the whole transformation thing).

Well, first, I'd disagree with your basic premise. But instead of arguing on personal preference, I'll point out that the rest of your stance is flawed. The Shifter only has a Spell Strength of 16. A supernatural entity (through a link) is giving the Shifter a +2 boost, but that is not the Shifter's actual ability, just his/her to command. So what you're complaining about is 2 different beings pooling their resources to out perform 1 being, and you don't think that should be possible.

So two powers are combining their abilities to gain a slight advantage to only 61 situations, while Thoth who is wise, knowledgeable, cunning, and quick-witted could use 130 (or more) situations to overcome their very minor advantage, plus his large reserve of godly talents, attributes, and abilities. Personally, I don't have any issue with it and my money would still be on Thoth. The rules don't suggest there's an issue with this. You're welcome to house rule as you like. Farewell and safe journeys.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:36 am
  

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Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:08 am
Posts: 756
Comment: They/Them
If a player had this specific gripe, I'd vacillate between just upping Thoth's spell strength by 1 and finding the matter indicative of broader concerns.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:58 pm
  

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Posts: 756
Comment: They/Them
TIL the optional article "The Expanded Mega-Hero" in Rifter 37 allows a magic-using character to have a spell strength of 19@14th level.


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