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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:39 am
  

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Knight

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Basically what I'm asking is in the title above. How common is super tech among your supers? If you look at CS as an example of the base HU setting city SWAT teams have exoskeletons and laser rifles, and I would assume that similar levels of tech would be available for sanctioned government agencies/agents and super groups, if needed or wanted.

In my game there are several sort of background groups that the players occasionally run into, or hear about as NPCs. Some are public super teams, others are government black ops, still others are independent, and can stay outside the law through various means. If one of these NPCS is a Ancient Weapons Master they might have vibro or stun weapons, an anti-impact suit under Flexi Steel equivalent armor, a nanotech multi-tool, glop grenades, multi-optics glasses, and high tech hands free comms as part of their standard gear. Heck, the mutant power house of the group may have most of the same stuff because it is standard gear for the entire team.

Is something like my example in your world? If so are your PCs able to access it? If I'm playing a high level game the PCs might be part of one of these top tier groups, or at least have access to some of their resources. In lower power games the top tier is sometimes used as something of a stick. Yes, your Physical Training character can beat up thugs in his jogging suit, but the government sponsored black ops Psychic with high tech gear can match him in CQB combat, PLUS has psychics to fry his brain and fly.

What about super vehicles? Are cloaked transsonic jets a thing for high end super groups? What about for your PCs? Stuff like that.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:39 am
  

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Adventurer

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Comment: "Setting the Stage" - Rifter 79
"Hitting the Streets" - Rifter 81
"Hitting the Gym" - Rifter 82
super tech that the players have the skills to use, almost non existant
super tech that the players haven't the skills to use, maybe a teeny bit more.

Granted I play Heroes more than Rifts, but real powerful tech is something to keep a close eye on

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Author of "Setting the Stage" - Rifter 79, "Hitting the Streets" - Rifter 81, "Hitting the Gym" - Rifter 82
"Saving the World", and "On the Hunt" - Rifter 83
and lastly, my baby, my long term project... The Dark City of Cascade - Rifter 84.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:52 pm
  

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Knight

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Zero, so do you have the tech pieces from Century Station/Gramacy Island floating around your game, or is it JUST what a Hardware builds for him/herself?

Thanks for the input.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:31 pm
  

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Comment: "Setting the Stage" - Rifter 79
"Hitting the Streets" - Rifter 81
"Hitting the Gym" - Rifter 82
I do, and such things are to be feared in the dark city of Cascade. Twice in my game, something from CS has made out out of the border and into my game, and the characters realize how serious it is to have something of that scale out in the 'real world'

As for gadgetry and the like, I actually wrote up a gadget system that I think will be appearing in Rifter 83.

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Author of "Setting the Stage" - Rifter 79, "Hitting the Streets" - Rifter 81, "Hitting the Gym" - Rifter 82
"Saving the World", and "On the Hunt" - Rifter 83
and lastly, my baby, my long term project... The Dark City of Cascade - Rifter 84.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:06 pm
  

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Knight

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Cool Zero.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:52 am
  

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Hero

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Shoot the tubes, Dogmeat!
Super Tech tends to be Rare and Expensive, and most importantly, Unstable

Any super tech your character started with you're character is assumed to be intimately familiar with, most likely because you created it and you're involved in doing the constant micro fine tuning. Even if your character isn't the brains behind the creation [test pilot, special operative or super soldier] you are a Natural* at it's upkeep and maintenance.

As such any "confiscated" goods are likely to become unreliable over time, or unlikely to be recharged. Now this might seem that I'm nerfing the laser gun your mutant acquired from the villain out of spite. . . And in part you're right. . . If the superspy's gimmick was his high tech gear it would be really annoying if the experiment got 3 copies of the same stuff.

But more importantly it's to keep it out of the hands of civilians. Your average american drives a car with a gasoline engine instead of a micro fusion battery not just because it is expensive, but it's dangerous too. Wars are still fought with Jets and Tanks and Cruise Missiles because power armor is too unreliable without a Natural* piloting it or servicing it. It's used primarily as an excuse to keep "the world outside our window" more intact.

However, super tech does exist, and it is effective. That i why it tends to show up in elite units or in locations with a small blueprint. For example the "Super Prison" does have super tech, but it has one (or more) Naturals* on staff at any given time. So does the super spy organisation or the evil society bent on world domination. However they're still dependent on the scientist just as much as the machinery (this is why the kidnapping the scientist more important than just getting his notes).

Finally, don't mistake this for being completely secret or unheard of. Actually everyone knows this stuff exists. They may very well see the uber-rich driving around in their flying car, he's likely either a Natural* himself or he's rich enough to keep one on his payroll. The divide between the "Have's" and the "Have-Nots" is much bigger in my super world than the real world. In our real world you may have to fly basic economy while a rich man flies in his private jet, but ultimately you're both still flying. In the super world you still fly coach, but a super rich man might have a teleporter.

*You may have notice the asterisk next to the word Natural. it's an idea that I stole from Nightbane (between the shadows). In the context of "my" HU games there are a relatively large number of minor psychics/minor mutants who are "naturals" in their fields (this would include Hardware/Physical Training/Special Training characters) but is almost more relevant for the "non-hero" type who is just a person who is really good at their field. Naturals who focused on cooking or singing or dancing or business who would never get in a fight are the bulk of the naturals (and you'd be surprised on how many naturals squandered their gifts on Lore:Roleplaying games). People with overt powers are "Super-Naturals" but it's usually just shortened to "Supers". (P.S. there is another designation called "Planetarys" they're even more powerful than Mega-Heroes and are NPC's for you over the top Super-Men or Heralds of Galactus, but don't worry there are currently only 9 of them recognized on earth.)


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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:09 am
  

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Knight

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Incrip, your world seems to be similar to CS/GI, as far as the tech stuff goes, which works well. Like I said, I make it rare/expensive, but available if you have the right connections, abilities and partners. I've really limited Joe Average from building it. As an example from comics, the X-Men who have alien tech, unlimited funds, and super geniuses on staff would have various gadgets and gear available, but teenage Peter Parker would be limited without a great explanation.

Thanks for the feedback all.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:19 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
I tend to use a "hybrid" system.
There is some super tech out there, and it may even be available for mere money. But it isn't really "super tech" and is more of just advanced tech.
Power armor, basic energy weapons... stuff like that.
Generic off the shelf stuff like you could buy from Northern Gun or Wilks or what have you.

Then there is Super Tech. My gadgeteers get to pimp out the basic stuff to be better. They can get a suit of power armor that does stuff that you just can't buy off the shelf. But it often is one of a kind kitbash stuff, or works because it works... and can't be easily (or at all) replicated. This is because I use the trope that mad science (gadgeteers) can warp reality in limited fashion. Their tech doesn't just seem to break the laws of science... it actually does. And often it only works properly for the builder or for those that they explain it to. Or other gadgeteers (thus allowing one PC gadgeteer to loot villain gadgeteers toy box). This is why it is so hard to replicate super soldier programs for instance!

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Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:40 pm
  

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Not available to the average person. You would have to try and buy it on the black market or else break into the heavily guarded building it is contained in. Most high tech businesses in my game have paramilitary units for security guards. Either of these options would be something the average hero would not choose to do and still be within their alignment.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:57 am
  

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Knight

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So no trips to your friendly neighborhood gadget builder or laser rifle sales rep.

Thanks for the feedback all.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:03 pm
  

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Comment: "Your inferiority complex might be justified."
RockJock wrote:
So no trips to your friendly neighborhood gadget builder or laser rifle sales rep.
You mean illegal stuff that the cops bust you for? No. That would be allowing the player to make their character into something that would not be rules legal. You average mutant would not own body armor/robotic suits or energy weapons.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:15 pm
  

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Knight

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I guess my games tend to have more of a Marvel/DC feel to them. If the group has a Hardware Analytical in the group, deep pockets, government connections, or much in the way of alien influence they will have access to things like enhanced armored uniforms. I'm not talking a full PA, or even Exoskeleton type suit, but something like homemade flex-steel suit with the AU impact layer as armor. That is partly power level and part to keep regular old firearms from being what everyone is using. Same goes for some type or another stun gun/icer/stun phaser kinda weapon for the gun guy in the group to keep the body count down.


Now if we are talking the group of Muties under the bridge, or protecting their neighborhood probably not.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:23 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
RockJock wrote:
I guess my games tend to have more of a Marvel/DC feel to them. If the group has a Hardware Analytical in the group, deep pockets, government connections, or much in the way of alien influence they will have access to things like enhanced armored uniforms. I'm not talking a full PA, or even Exoskeleton type suit, but something like homemade flex-steel suit with the AU impact layer as armor. That is partly power level and part to keep regular old firearms from being what everyone is using. Same goes for some type or another stun gun/icer/stun phaser kinda weapon for the gun guy in the group to keep the body count down.


Now if we are talking the group of Muties under the bridge, or protecting their neighborhood probably not.

This is how I do it. When I said that I have 'off the shelf' stuff it is often a very big ticket shelf.
The military has energy weapons, and fields them for special missions. But the line units still use kinetic rifles, though they may be using better bullets and have better body armor.
You can get medical cybernetics, but you need very deep pockets or massive insurance, and military grade stuff is right out (my medical cybernetics tend to be worse than replacement and are often of a quality similar to that of N&SS not HU or Rifts).
The top notch state of the art computer networks might (or might not) be protected by neural systems... but you'll never know because you don't have that kind of pull.

Something sort of like a cyberpunk or Shadowrun feel. Where the Big boys have the Neat Toys, and if your the right background you can rummage around in the toy box yourself. But otherwise your going to have to beg, borrow or steal anything you want to use because all the good stuff isn't bought for mere money.

I do this with other things too. My players went through "Down the line". Great. But now they are aware of a local guild of magic. This is handy since it allows for me to work in new magic PCs, and gives a place for old ones to retire to. But it also means they often pop in to ask for magical favors. Which the mages are willing to do...for a price. The mages do it because it is handy to have a super hero team in your pocket, the heroes do it because it is handy to have a magic guild in your pocket. Both sides feel that they are getting the upper hand and using the other for their benefit, and both sides know that the other side is profiting too.
The mages are willing to cast a few spells, or identify trinkets... but they often don't want just money. What they do want is stuff like "I need a Night Rose from the Nightlands. I can open the portal but it is far to dangerous for me to go alone...so I want you to escort me there" or "I understand you guys defeated Shadow Scorpion and captured his Onyx Scarab? If you give us the scarab we will be able to use its magic to boost ours and cast a warding spell around your base." (handy because it simultaniously takes a Mystic Object off the parties hands, with out just taking it. Gives them a concrete reward. And lets me work in a new NPC at the guild when they bestow the Scarab to one of the Aprentaces who becomes the new (good) Shadow Scorpion.) That sort of thing.

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The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:34 pm
  

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RockJock wrote:
I guess my games tend to have more of a Marvel/DC feel to them. If the group has a Hardware Analytical in the group, deep pockets, government connections, or much in the way of alien influence they will have access to things like enhanced armored uniforms. I'm not talking a full PA, or even Exoskeleton type suit, but something like homemade flex-steel suit with the AU impact layer as armor. That is partly power level and part to keep regular old firearms from being what everyone is using. Same goes for some type or another stun gun/icer/stun phaser kinda weapon for the gun guy in the group to keep the body count down.
Now if we are talking the group of Muties under the bridge, or protecting their neighborhood probably not.
If too many toys are involved then a lot of the time my players won't have their characters learn their powers. With well selected powers there is less need to gear up with toys.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:56 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Stone Gargoyle wrote:
RockJock wrote:
I guess my games tend to have more of a Marvel/DC feel to them. If the group has a Hardware Analytical in the group, deep pockets, government connections, or much in the way of alien influence they will have access to things like enhanced armored uniforms. I'm not talking a full PA, or even Exoskeleton type suit, but something like homemade flex-steel suit with the AU impact layer as armor. That is partly power level and part to keep regular old firearms from being what everyone is using. Same goes for some type or another stun gun/icer/stun phaser kinda weapon for the gun guy in the group to keep the body count down.
Now if we are talking the group of Muties under the bridge, or protecting their neighborhood probably not.
If too many toys are involved then a lot of the time my players won't have their characters learn their powers. With well selected powers there is less need to gear up with toys.

I can see the desire that RockJock has though for wanting to have something to keep the body count down.
Since as written you need to do something, either homebrewing up stun rules, or making less than lethal weapons more available or something...
Because otherwise most super battles end up with lots and lots of dead people. Especially when fighting normal like color punks. And even if you can regulate energy blasts, you still have to try and roll to pull punches... so all the melee builds have to just hope the dice don't decide "nope, your getting another count of manslaughter today sorry".

I often use a house rule that people need to make a morale check every time they take a hit point damage, which helps. But it still makes it a sweet spot that you need to aim for.
When I am running full up four color anime style games I often use stun damage rules instead... but that is a whole different thread.


Sometimes toys are a compliment to powers not a replacement. Especially for things where there simply isn't a power that covers it. More so with the rather small pool of powers that characters have to choose from. It is quite easy to end up with a character who only has a couple powers, and a lot of builds will find themselves with little in the way of 'obvious' powers. Often by intentional design. Ego from Aliens Unlimited is a perfect example of this concept in fact! But Healers, Luckies, Limited use based (Power Touch, Sleep Dust, Pixie Dust et multiple cetera), Movement, Information, and many other builds will find that having tools are not detrimental to the build but instrumental parts of them. I would, personally, reject the idea that a player should be told that they are "doing it wrong" and that they are not "well selecting their powers" if a person rolled up a Magic Girl with Energy Wings and Karmic Powers and then wanted to have her collect and use knick-knacks to make up for her personal lack of powers. A nice metal lasso maybe, or a black jack she affectionately calls her "time out stick", or buying some flash grenades to throw while yelling "Dazzling Flare Attack". Telling them that "I'm sorry you will just have to make do with your powers and only them, guess you should have picked better ones" seems... well it seems wrong. It also narrowly tailors the game to a certain limited style of play where only certain builds and powers are viable and everything else is just a useless gimmick. If I wanted that I would play a competitive PvP MMO.

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The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:03 pm
  

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Knight

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I totally agree that the use of equipment has a lot to do with what the players build. For example, a latent psychic can be underpowered with many higher end supers, but have them built and played as more of a Agents of SHIELD version of Quake, or a Jedi makes their mix of Psychics a real strength, while allowing them to still be useful when their ISP is used up. A few toys can let them do that easier.

Totally depends on the roleplaying in the group.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:26 am
  

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Hero

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We use the Tech vs Artifact system. Hero items like power armor, hi tech weapons and gadgets are artifacts that can't be mass produced or shared around. Where as Tech can be mass produced and shared, where the GMs limits how much it alters the gaming world. I.E. we had a inventor PC come up with less-lethal/non-lethal weapons and licensed them to a company to manufacture for law enforcement use.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:44 pm
  

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RockJock wrote:
a latent psychic can be underpowered with many higher end supers, but have them built and played as more of a Agents of SHIELD version of Quake, or a Jedi makes their mix of Psychics a real strength, while allowing them to still be useful when their ISP is used up. A few toys can let them do that easier.
I don't get a lot of players who want to do point-based abilities such as magic or psionics. I can see how it might be useful when the points dry up though.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:26 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Out of sheer curiosity Stone Gargoyle.
How do you have your supers control the lethality? Or do you just let the bodies fall where they may?
I'm sort of curious, especially given that once you have your powers most of them don't offer a lot of variety after a bit, and that if you want to branch out, and can't get "weird tech" you usually have to settle for guns and such.

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The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:22 pm
  

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Knight

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I'm curious as well. I'm always happy to see different approaches to common issues.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:59 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
Out of sheer curiosity Stone Gargoyle.
How do you have your supers control the lethality? Or do you just let the bodies fall where they may?
I'm sort of curious, especially given that once you have your powers most of them don't offer a lot of variety after a bit, and that if you want to branch out, and can't get "weird tech" you usually have to settle for guns and such.
I've only ever had one player who racked up a body count and that was because he was trying to. Most of my players' characters don't use guns and control their powers well enough that death is not a common occurrence in my games. As for NPCs, I have them run before they get killed most often. There's not a lot of lethality occurring in my games. But then i don't have the villains kill the heroes when they are down either.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:19 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Stone Gargoyle wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Out of sheer curiosity Stone Gargoyle.
How do you have your supers control the lethality? Or do you just let the bodies fall where they may?
I'm sort of curious, especially given that once you have your powers most of them don't offer a lot of variety after a bit, and that if you want to branch out, and can't get "weird tech" you usually have to settle for guns and such.
I've only ever had one player who racked up a body count and that was because he was trying to. Most of my players' characters don't use guns and control their powers well enough that death is not a common occurrence in my games. As for NPCs, I have them run before they get killed most often. There's not a lot of lethality occurring in my games. But then i don't have the villains kill the heroes when they are down either.

Right.
But how do you do that?
Mechanically I mean?
How do you have people "pull their punches" so to speak so that you don't kill people on accident (the pull punches rules are pretty easy to fail for example).
How do they know when to start scaling back and who they can hit hard so that they don't use weak blasts on tough people or strong ones on weak ones?
How do you decide when to have people run?
How do you have the heroes "down" but not dead?
That is what I am curious about. Because when I have run the game over and over again it seems like the problem with body count is one baked into the rules as written and with out extensive house rules the game ends up pretty deadly.

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The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:00 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
Right.
But how do you do that?
Mechanically I mean?
How do you have people "pull their punches" so to speak so that you don't kill people on accident (the pull punches rules are pretty easy to fail for example).
How do they know when to start scaling back and who they can hit hard so that they don't use weak blasts on tough people or strong ones on weak ones?e
How do you decide when to have people run?
How do you have the heroes "down" but not dead?
That is what I am curious about. Because when I have run the game over and over again it seems like the problem with body count is one baked into the rules as written and with out extensive house rules the game ends up pretty deadly.
With melee damage, SDC damage is taken first. Once damage starts to affect Hit Points then characters are in danger of being severely injured. You can go your PE number in points under your Hit Points before you die. You just go into a coma. I've never had characters die in one hit. If characters continue to fight once they are into their Hit Points when they should have run, that is on them.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:43 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Stone Gargoyle wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Right.
But how do you do that?
Mechanically I mean?
How do you have people "pull their punches" so to speak so that you don't kill people on accident (the pull punches rules are pretty easy to fail for example).
How do they know when to start scaling back and who they can hit hard so that they don't use weak blasts on tough people or strong ones on weak ones?e
How do you decide when to have people run?
How do you have the heroes "down" but not dead?
That is what I am curious about. Because when I have run the game over and over again it seems like the problem with body count is one baked into the rules as written and with out extensive house rules the game ends up pretty deadly.
With melee damage, SDC damage is taken first. Once damage starts to affect Hit Points then characters are in danger of being severely injured. You can go your PE number in points under your Hit Points before you die. You just go into a coma. I've never had characters die in one hit. If characters continue to fight once they are into their Hit Points when they should have run, that is on them.

Yes. I get that. That is the way that the system works...
But how do you DO IT.
-How do you avoid the issues of accidentally wiping out all the hit points, falling into a coma and failing your coma/death roll? -PE is for the "you died no save" if you lose all you HP you go into a coma and still can die if you fail to make your save (and those saves can be brutal)
-This is especially relevant because HP totals tend to be pretty low. PE + 1d6/level means that you are often looking at low enough HP that a stray 4 or 5d6 attack will wipe out a medium level characters entire HP pool and that it takes much fewer dice to take out a low level character (unless everyone has PE stats in the 20s the averages should be hover around 10-15 +3/level...meaning that a measly first level 3d6 attack can easily finish off your last bit of SDC, and a first level characters entire HP pool with no problem)
-How do you handle stuff like color punks and minions who have fairly low totals anyway and are at grave risk of being OHK if someone has something like super strength?
-How do your players (and villains) know how to 'regulate their powers' so that they are doing just enough damage to fight but not accidentally kill?
-How do you get the heroes "down" with out stun rules or knock out rules?

I am confused how you avoid the problems of how the combat rules work is what I am saying.
Those problems are the #1 reason that I have had people turn to super tech in the first place, so if there are other ways to accomplish the same thing I would be most interested.
But as it stands I have yet to see

-A good way for a super to fight a color punk gang with out killing half of them.
-Or to know when to start pulling their energy bolts from "full power to whittle down their SDC" to "okay now, low blasts so that we can nudge them into the HP zone" It's not like people have life bars over their heads or something.
-Let alone a way for my melee people or tanks to safely fight with out having a pretty good chance of any given hit being an instant kill ("crap failed another pull punch roll, guess that guy's dead too")

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:54 pm
  

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Comment: "Your inferiority complex might be justified."
eliakon wrote:
Yes. I get that. That is the way that the system works...
But how do you DO IT.
-How do you avoid the issues of accidentally wiping out all the hit points, falling into a coma and failing your coma/death roll? -PE is for the "you died no save" if you lose all you HP you go into a coma and still can die if you fail to make your save (and those saves can be brutal)
-This is especially relevant because HP totals tend to be pretty low. PE + 1d6/level means that you are often looking at low enough HP that a stray 4 or 5d6 attack will wipe out a medium level characters entire HP pool.
-How do you handle stuff like color punks and minions who have fairly low totals anyway and are at grave risk of being OHK if someone has something like super strength?
-How do your players (and villains) know how to 'regulate their powers' so that they are doing just enough damage to fight but not accidentally kill?
-How do you get the heroes "down" with out stun rules or knock out rules?

I am confused how you avoid the problems of how the combat rules work is what I am saying.
Those problems are the #1 reason that I have had people turn to super tech in the first place, so if there are other ways to accomplish the same thing I would be most interested.
But as it stands I have yet to see

-A good way for a super to fight a color punk gang with out killing half of them.
-Or to know when to start pulling their energy bolts from "full power to whittle down their SDC" to "okay now, low blasts so that we can nudge them into the HP zone" It's not like people have life bars over their heads or something.
-Let alone a way for my melee people or tanks to safely fight with out having a pretty good chance of any given hit being an instant kill ("crap failed another pull punch roll, guess that guy's dead too")
These are things we face as GMs. But giving punk gangs on the street high-tech armor and weapons doesn't solve the problem. I start characters at level 1, so they have low damage to begin with. If the energy weapons leave the enemy crispy, odds are you can negotiate their surrender without having to kill them. A lot of what you are talking about can be worked out through roleplaying the situation rather than go in guns blazing and wiping everyone out. And yes, tanks are a problem in general.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:14 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Stone Gargoyle wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Yes. I get that. That is the way that the system works...
But how do you DO IT.
-How do you avoid the issues of accidentally wiping out all the hit points, falling into a coma and failing your coma/death roll? -PE is for the "you died no save" if you lose all you HP you go into a coma and still can die if you fail to make your save (and those saves can be brutal)
-This is especially relevant because HP totals tend to be pretty low. PE + 1d6/level means that you are often looking at low enough HP that a stray 4 or 5d6 attack will wipe out a medium level characters entire HP pool.
-How do you handle stuff like color punks and minions who have fairly low totals anyway and are at grave risk of being OHK if someone has something like super strength?
-How do your players (and villains) know how to 'regulate their powers' so that they are doing just enough damage to fight but not accidentally kill?
-How do you get the heroes "down" with out stun rules or knock out rules?

I am confused how you avoid the problems of how the combat rules work is what I am saying.
Those problems are the #1 reason that I have had people turn to super tech in the first place, so if there are other ways to accomplish the same thing I would be most interested.
But as it stands I have yet to see

-A good way for a super to fight a color punk gang with out killing half of them.
-Or to know when to start pulling their energy bolts from "full power to whittle down their SDC" to "okay now, low blasts so that we can nudge them into the HP zone" It's not like people have life bars over their heads or something.
-Let alone a way for my melee people or tanks to safely fight with out having a pretty good chance of any given hit being an instant kill ("crap failed another pull punch roll, guess that guy's dead too")
These are things we face as GMs. But giving punk gangs on the street high-tech armor and weapons doesn't solve the problem. I start characters at level 1, so they have low damage to begin with. If the energy weapons leave the enemy crispy, odds are you can negotiate their surrender without having to kill them. A lot of what you are talking about can be worked out through roleplaying the situation rather than go in guns blazing and wiping everyone out. And yes, tanks are a problem in general.

No you don't give the punks energy guns.
You, as a player, go get something that is not going to kill them.

And players at level 1 still have pretty huge damage outputs in HU. Especially if they have any sort of strength power or melee focus what so ever

But what I am hearing really is that you don't have a solution. You are simply saying that other GMs who do try to find solutions for the problem are doing it wrong and that it is best to simply ignore the problem.
Because really that is what your answers are. That you say "well there are a lot of issues with how combat works... so my answer is that we just ignore it, house rule the problems away and assume that anyone else who doesn't use our particular set of house rules is playing wrong"
Which sort of undercuts your stance that super tech is wrong and should be super tightly controlled in games... because the justification you provide relies exclusively on a unique set of house rules to function.

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:23 pm
  

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Comment: "Your inferiority complex might be justified."
eliakon wrote:
But what I am hearing really is that you don't have a solution. You are simply saying that other GMs who do try to find solutions for the problem are doing it wrong and that it is best to simply ignore the problem.
Because really that is what your answers are. That you say "well there are a lot of issues with how combat works... so my answer is that we just ignore it, house rule the problems away and assume that anyone else who doesn't use our particular set of house rules is playing wrong"
Which sort of undercuts your stance that super tech is wrong and should be super tightly controlled in games... because the justification you provide relies exclusively on a unique set of house rules to function.
I don't have a solution because I've never found it to be a problem. If insulting me makes you feel better about that, have at it. But part of my point has also been that if you give the player an additional weapon you have even more of a problem, because who is to say they can even use the weapon properly.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:12 pm
  

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Adventurer

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Comment: "Setting the Stage" - Rifter 79
"Hitting the Streets" - Rifter 81
"Hitting the Gym" - Rifter 82
I have an answer. If the players are very powerful, enough that they think they may kill in a single hit (in which case, its odd they'd fight street thugs IMO), then the players need to use a ton of discretion.

They need to demonstrate their power, intentionally hold back with pull punch, grab, restrain, or otherwise try to capture or subdue. Intimidating people by picking up a car or stomping the ground.

When I run, I generally provide a clue when someone hits H.P. also, I usually say they cough up blood, or that that wound they just got was a real bleeder.

Restraint is in the players best interest.

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Author of "Setting the Stage" - Rifter 79, "Hitting the Streets" - Rifter 81, "Hitting the Gym" - Rifter 82
"Saving the World", and "On the Hunt" - Rifter 83
and lastly, my baby, my long term project... The Dark City of Cascade - Rifter 84.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:17 pm
  

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Comment: "Your inferiority complex might be justified."
zerombr wrote:
I have an answer. If the players are very powerful, enough that they think they may kill in a single hit (in which case, its odd they'd fight street thugs IMO), then the players need to use a ton of discretion.

They need to demonstrate their power, intentionally hold back with pull punch, grab, restrain, or otherwise try to capture or subdue. Intimidating people by picking up a car or stomping the ground.

When I run, I generally provide a clue when someone hits H.P. also, I usually say they cough up blood, or that that wound they just got was a real bleeder.

Restraint is in the players best interest.
Attacking indirectly also works. Shooting objects around them makes it so you're not unleashing power on them directly. Of course if a tank hits someone they are going to get hurt, but why not have them hit the wall instead?

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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:46 pm
  

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Comment: "Setting the Stage" - Rifter 79
"Hitting the Streets" - Rifter 81
"Hitting the Gym" - Rifter 82
indeed. My group generally plays low powered so this is rarely an issue, but yeah, use powers to intimidate over 'turn every single person you meet into a bloody corpse because you were built to kill humanity'...

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Author of "Setting the Stage" - Rifter 79, "Hitting the Streets" - Rifter 81, "Hitting the Gym" - Rifter 82
"Saving the World", and "On the Hunt" - Rifter 83
and lastly, my baby, my long term project... The Dark City of Cascade - Rifter 84.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:44 pm
  

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Comment: "Your inferiority complex might be justified."
zerombr wrote:
indeed. My group generally plays low powered so this is rarely an issue, but yeah, use powers to intimidate over 'turn every single person you meet into a bloody corpse because you were built to kill humanity'...
Not only that, but if you have Supernatural Strength you most likely are going to crush anything you grab. I have been known to make such characters have to do a pull punch as a strength check to keep from crushing objects they grab.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:08 am
  

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Comment: "Setting the Stage" - Rifter 79
"Hitting the Streets" - Rifter 81
"Hitting the Gym" - Rifter 82
I like the flaws for powers that were listed in...I think Rifter 9.5? And that was supernatural strength's flaw, but it specifically notes, 'surprisingly delicate with babies'. Which I approve of :D

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Author of "Setting the Stage" - Rifter 79, "Hitting the Streets" - Rifter 81, "Hitting the Gym" - Rifter 82
"Saving the World", and "On the Hunt" - Rifter 83
and lastly, my baby, my long term project... The Dark City of Cascade - Rifter 84.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:28 pm
  

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Comment: "Your inferiority complex might be justified."
zerombr wrote:
I like the flaws for powers that were listed in...I think Rifter 9.5? And that was supernatural strength's flaw, but it specifically notes, 'surprisingly delicate with babies'. Which I approve of :D
Yeah, there are some situations where you just have to not let the objects be crushed.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:26 am
  

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Knight

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In my games it is more the opposite issue. Take Century Station as is for a example. The average group of Color Punks are running around with SMGs and assault rifles. A mutant with a Super Energy Expulsion, and a couple of not so combat oriented powers (Linguistics, Book Worm, Bend Light, Clock Manipulation etc) or even things like enhanced sense is going to die one on one against a Color Punk who wins ini, much less against a group of them. If the character is a Centurion and has a GI bullet resistant suit then he doesn't wind up on his deathbed so often. Maybe with a impact layer and Flexi-Steel he isn't automatically in a body cast if a Brick finger flicks him.

I use super tech to add flavor, but also to give player characters a bit of padding now and again. I don't let every street punk, or neighborhood super have super tech, but those on teams with deep pockets, access to Alien Tech, or a couple of super geniuses around are not going to be wearing spandex in my game. The kid from the Bronx who got bit by something, and is on his own would still have the spandex.

Not meant to be a right or wrong kinda discussion/situation, I was just curious. Thanks for the feedback.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:55 pm
  

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
To answer your question…. Honestly it depends on the game we’re running. I’ve run games that have had 3 versions of Superman and others where they characters were basically Morlocks with one at best mildly useful power. Those working with major groups like the police or a Super Organization obviously are going to be better equipped but unless we have a character focusing on that type of thing most of my characters usually got beefed up suits and maybe a weapon or two if their powerset wasn’t combat oriented.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:50 pm
  

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For more heroic games, a simple house-rule for mooks is that they only have SDC. This is easier to have as a "known" quantity for players since it doesn't increase with levels directly, and so you can justify your players having an idea of if they need to pull their punches or not against someone. When the SDC is gone, they are down for the count (and their being down lets the heroes know that they should move on). If a mook gets back up, it means that he was faking it.

Doing double their SDC in a single blow risks killing them. They can, of course, be deliberately killed, but that isn't very heroic. Also, common sense on using lethal force: don't go around shooting people on the assumption that they'll soak a few bullets and be fine!

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Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 6:59 pm
  

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D-Bee

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Comment: You want weapons? We're in a library. Books are the best weapon in the world.
Hi. Long time fan; first time commenter.

To answer the original question, I'm going to echo what others have already said:
I'm still in the world-building phase but I see super-technology as being strongly tied to the Genius/ gadgeteer/ boffin who created it. Sure others could recreate it by following the blueprints and notes, if they understand them, but it would just be following instructions. Not the true understanding that comes with the spark of Genius.

To get super-tech mature enough to mass-produce requires working with the inventor. Improving or adapting the technology requires the inventor or another Genius in the same field. This is not common knowledge. There's lot less research into the psychology of super-tech than there is into the psychology of super people and what little there is has been mostly carried out by other Geniuses.

This leads directly to Shvets Syndrome*. Otherwise known as MSP; Mad-Science Psychosis. In Shvets syndrome a Genius will invent a prototype piece of super-tech and present it to a non-Genius peer who will, in turn, attempt to monetize or monopolize the invention. This will sideline the inventor who will attempt to reclaim their creation. This will result in one or more parties slipping into criminality to monopolize the invention. This degenerates into paranoia, mania, cackling and oaths that someone "...Will pay!"

Ultimately it's society that pays.

This means that the public and governments are suspicious of super-tech. Ownership of super-tech is sometimes restricted to the inventor alone. More authoritarian governments that attempt to claim exclusive ownership of all super-tech made by their citizens have found themselves facing down large groups of angry Shvets afflicted Geniuses. More than one has fallen to Genius rebels.

(*As listed since DSM-III. Full details of Dr Shvet's findings are strictly restricted as need-to-know.)

As for the whole lethality issue, I've never found that to be an issue. Now it's true I've not played any of the Megaverse games 'in anger' for years and not run any of them since the mid 90's. But I've been doing a few test fights with HU2 to remind myself how it plays.

An average 1st level character has 14 hit points and a minimum of 20 SDC. A 3d6 damage attack will average 10.5 points per hit. With Roll w/Impact it'll take in the region of 6+/-1 successful attacks to kill. To get a one-hit kill you'd need to do 1d6x10 damage and you'll only get that kill half the time. If you're throwing that sort of attack around you're asking for trouble.

But to be honest in my game most characters will be throwing a 1d4 damage punch. It's set in the UK where guns are black-market items and it's rare for characters without a military or police background to be proficient with them. It's a crime to "go equipped" with a weapon of any kind.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:58 pm
  

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Knight

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Dreicunan, I like that for the rando street guy.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:42 pm
  

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Champion

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For the OP, supertech is available only to organization type characters. One of a kind supertech can be created by Operators or Genius characters, although getting the stuff is usually an adventure in it's own right.

For damage, well I use MDC and SDC as written, so my games are pretty lethal. I see that as part and parcel of using military grade weapons/powers and is what sort of delineates street level (SDC) and high powered games (MDC). Rather like gang members can't compete with a tank battalion.

eliakon wrote:
How do you have people "pull their punches" so to speak so that you don't kill people on accident (the pull punches rules are pretty easy to fail for example).
Pull punch is automatic thing in my game.
eliakon wrote:
How do they know when to start scaling back and who they can hit hard so that they don't use weak blasts on tough people or strong ones on weak ones?
Via description of the combat. SDC is all knock downs and scrapes. HP is when blood starts flowing.
eliakon wrote:
How do you decide when to have people run?
Horror Factor
eliakon wrote:
How do you have the heroes "down" but not dead?
MOST enemies do not confirm the kill, so once someone is down, they are out, but not dead.
eliakon wrote:
That is what I am curious about. Because when I have run the game over and over again it seems like the problem with body count is one baked into the rules as written and with out extensive house rules the game ends up pretty deadly.

I agree with everything you are saying and I kinda think that is one of the joys/risks of playing a superhero game.
Tossing cars and tanks has a tendency to be a bit lethal...although I do allow "pulling punches" to be an automatic thing, sort of like 100% speed sparring. You are doing the motions correctly, but the force/emotion behind it is not there. Once you start with ranged attacks though, it gets bloody quickly.

So, what I have had to institute to keep the lethality down is a two-fold solution:
For non-authorized heroes, they have to pull punches, use negotiation, use stunning attacks, lots of non-lethal stuff and guns are a last resort. Gunfights are lethal, or at the very least crippling since shooting ankles and wrists is still rather brutal.
For non-super villains, I give superheroes a HF of 10 after the first round of combat when the villains realize they are overclassed. Every round of combat the HF goes up by +1. I also use this rule when people without anti-tank weapons are facing a tank for the first time. This allows villains to not be completely destroyed fighting hopeless battles against something they can't actually win against.
Plus, I have found villains that have a grudge against heroes to end up being quite memorable.

PlanetNiles wrote:
To get super-tech mature enough to mass-produce requires working with the inventor. Improving or adapting the technology requires the inventor or another Genius in the same field. This is not common knowledge. There's lot less research into the psychology of super-tech than there is into the psychology of super people and what little there is has been mostly carried out by other Geniuses.

This leads directly to Shvets Syndrome*. Otherwise known as MSP; Mad-Science Psychosis. In Shvets syndrome a Genius will invent a prototype piece of super-tech and present it to a non-Genius peer who will, in turn, attempt to monetize or monopolize the invention. This will sideline the inventor who will attempt to reclaim their creation. This will result in one or more parties slipping into criminality to monopolize the invention. This degenerates into paranoia, mania, cackling and oaths that someone "...Will pay!"

Ultimately it's society that pays.

This means that the public and governments are suspicious of super-tech. Ownership of super-tech is sometimes restricted to the inventor alone. More authoritarian governments that attempt to claim exclusive ownership of all super-tech made by their citizens have found themselves facing down large groups of angry Shvets afflicted Geniuses. More than one has fallen to Genius rebels.

(*As listed since DSM-III. Full details of Dr Shvet's findings are strictly restricted as need-to-know.)


I love this! It reminds me of Malign Hypercognition Disorder (evil genius disease) from Soon I Will Be Invincible by Austin Grossman.

Forgive my babbling.

-STS

_________________
A man's rights rest in three boxes. The ballot box, jury box and the cartridge box - Frederick Douglass
I am a firm believer that men with guns can solve any problem - Inscriptus
Any system in which the most populated areas have the most political power, creates an incentive for areas that want power to increase their population. - Killer Cyborg


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:42 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 2:01 am
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Thanks for the comments guys. Sometimes, like with this I just like to know where everyone is in their games, and try to find a piece or two to steal....I mean borrow. Glad it drew you out of the shadows PlanetNiles.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:16 am
  

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Knight

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
It's not stealing, you're just being 'influenced by'. ;)


Daniel Stoker

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:20 pm
  

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Knight

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Uhuh.....Exactly.

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