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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 1:14 pm
  

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Knight

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Dimension Book 3 page 35 (Law and Crime):
    The other rule enforced throughout the United Worlds is against the worship or service of "supernatural intelligences".
    To the eyes of the UWW, this category refers to any entity that feeds on the life energy of sentient beings.
    This includes vampires and most supernatural monsters.
    "Gods" who desire worship but do not demand human sacrifices are exempt from this law.

This is also reprinted, unmodified, on page 91 of Dimension Book 5.

The 2nd sentence SEEMS like a broad protection... however we do know that gods are entities who feed on sentient life energy (PPE) and the 4th sentence clearly provides exemption for any being who feeds on sentient energy so long as they don't do it through demanding HUMAN sacrifices. There's no requirement not to demand elf sacrifices or dwarf sacrifices, by comparison...

Page 84 of Dimension Book 2 lists Elves as the highest population (20%) and humans (15%) are tied with wolfen (15%) and dwarves (15%). Initially we were led to believe they were all SDC like humans, I think. Page 87 of Dimension Book 5 clarified that the elves were "Star Elves" and the dwarves "Dwarven Guildmasters" upgraded to MDC beings with supernatural PS on pages 44-45, so this could explain why they wouldn't need special protections against human sacrifice, as they would be more capable of fending for themselves, as have the minotaurs who became Space Minotaurs.

The "Wulfen" are still SDC though, and the 6% Ratlings who were mysteriously replaced with 7% Ratanoids (did someone cast transformation spell on them?) are still SDC. So why no special protections for them?

This doesn't seem like it would have been a deal with the 3 founding groups, which were the Star Kingdom, the Dwarven Guilds, and The Warlocks: "a coalition of techno-wizards, warlocks and ley line walkers of diverse races". An exemption for gods who don't sacrifice humans doesn't seem at first like it would appeal to one of these groups... but Dwarf-Elf rivalry is legendary, as is the ability of humans to get along with both of them, and humans must have been the highest-represented race amongst the warlocks, so if it wasn't passed then, the ingredients were there.

DB2p85 mentions "Many other planets have joined them, including a world ruled by True Atlanteans (described later)." I'm not sure if "later" refers to elsewhere in this book, I can't find any mention of it until DB3p35's description of Alexandria. It is described as "an important member planet" and its rulers Clan Acherean are described as "an influential group", so perhaps they are the reason why humans gained special protections?

DB5p88 refers to Ratanoids as "less refined elements" who serve as marines (89 elaborates "their Space Minotaur and Ratanoid troops"), it almost seems like they are considered 2nd-class citizens who primarily make up their 1st wave of ground troop in harm's way the most.

88 also refered to the CCW as "old friends" and we know they are majority-human. If you have to weigh humans against wolfen, wolfen reproduce a lot faster, they are stronger, they aren't specially targetted for tattoo slavery by the Splugorth, and they don't have a warrior culture which might emphasize self-reliance.

50,000 True Atlanteans out of a population of 5,000,000,000 is 1/100,000 or 0.001% so they are still quite the minority in comparison to Elves, Dwarves, Minotaurs and the fast-reproducing Ratlings>Ratanoids. If it is possible for humans to reproduce with Atlanteans and produce Atlanteans (I'm not sure how rules work here, it doesn't appear to be a guarantee like with Sea Titans) then perhaps the Atlanteans negotiating special protections against human sacrifice was done not just to protect themselves, but those who could help replenish their race?

I could see the Valkyries and deities of New Midgard also having something to do with it, if their past on Earth speaks of any protectiveness.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:18 pm
  

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I am not sure I understand your premise here so let me restate it concisely. Is it OK to sacrifice 85% of the members of the UWW to dark gods?

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:19 pm
  

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Knight

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Warshield73 wrote:
I am not sure I understand your premise here so let me restate it concisely. Is it OK to sacrifice 85% of the members of the UWW to dark gods?


As long as a god does not "demand" sacrifice (of humans) they are exempt...

So you could "encourage" the sacrifice of humans ("it's okay if you don't, I just would really appreciate if you did") or DEMAND the sacrifice of non-humans and still be exempt.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:19 am
  

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Champion

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That's just an editing mistake by cut & past, seriously. The fact the one time it gets repeated it's unmodified in any way should be a pretty telling clue on itself.

Not to mention it goes completely against the overall portrayal of the UWW in the same books and other sources.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:26 pm
  

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Knight

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What overall portrayal? Are humans not still the most dominant race there?


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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:19 am
  

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Axelmania wrote:
What overall portrayal? Are humans not still the most dominant race there?


I mean the "allowing for sacrifices for a god as long as they involve non-human sapients or the human sacrificed is convinced to do so" line of thinking... While it works from a weasel words point of view, it's the kind of thing that runs very counter to the portrayal of the UWW and the federation's sspirit in the books.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:46 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
I would honestly say that in this case the term "human sacrifice" is used as a catch all term for "demand the sacrifice of sentient beings"
But no, the idea that the UWW allows sentient sacrifice is pretty obviously absurd. Especially since they go to great pains to make it clear that they ban any religions that demand sentient sacrifice (this is in fact one of the reasons that both Demon and Deevil worship is illegal in the UWW).
It is also made clear that the even though some of the Dwarven guildmasters may possess the secrets of rune magic that they can not use it in the UWW as it is illegal due to the sacrifice needed.
The slavery and killing of sentient beings, human and non-human is one of the core reasons for the antipathy with the Splugorth.

But of course, the most obvious fact is that the UWW laws predate the inclusion of Humanity in the UWW :lol:

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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:09 am
  

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Yeah, it could have been seen as a discriminatory law shielding humans but not other species... if, as eliakon said, humans didn't appear only later on.
Plus, the line forbidding the worship of anything demanding the life of a sentient being is pretty clear.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:53 am
  

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Knight

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Er, how many years after the UWW was founded did humans join? I had thought the Warlocks founders included humans.

Banning those who "demand" sacrifice isn't a hard line, since that still allows "encourage" or "accepts".

Quote:
they can not use it in the UWW as it is illegal due to the sacrifice needed.

Was that in DB2 or clarified in a later one?


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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:52 am
  

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Axelmania wrote:
Er, how many years after the UWW was founded did humans join? I had thought the Warlocks founders included humans.

The Foundation of the UWW was the Dwarves rescuing the Elves. No humans on the scene.
Humans joined some nebulous time afterwords.

Axelmania wrote:
Banning those who "demand" sacrifice isn't a hard line, since that still allows "encourage" or "accepts".

I am not going to get into a semantics debate and quibble about this.
Besides being against the ToS it is also pretty clearly against the intent of the published material.
And frankly... trying to weasel word the books to change the published material so as to turn what is presented as a "just and noble society of law abiding white magic users" into a den of dark magic that engages in the regular sacrifice of much of the population...
No, just No.


Axelmania wrote:
Quote:
they can not use it in the UWW as it is illegal due to the sacrifice needed.

Was that in DB2 or clarified in a later one?

There is nothing to clairify.
The process requires the murder of sentients.
Dark Magics that require murder are illegal.
Ergo, it is illegal.
Its Not That Hard.
We do not need the entire law library of the UWW published with the case law history of every spell, ritual and magical procedure known in the Three Galaxies...
We are told that they ban sacrifice, and thus that is what the presumption is.
To assume otherwise we will need an explicit statement to the contrary that the usual laws do NOT apply to Rune Magic.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:35 am
  

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Knight

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eliakon wrote:
The Foundation of the UWW was the Dwarves rescuing the Elves. No humans on the scene.
Humans joined some nebulous time afterwords.

This sounds like a retcon from one of the later books?

DB2p84 mentions the Warlocks ("diverse races") using a TW starship to reach the elf-controlled Star Kingdom. Pg 85 continues describing the alliance growing ("The Warlocks and the Elven Star Kingdom rallied their fleets, but they found themselves outnumbered") and THEN is when the dwarves arrived.

I don't know if the "diverse races" was ever elaborated on to explicitly exclude humans? DB5p87 uses the phrase "diverse alien races" which sounds pretty similar, do you think "alien" was added to imply non-humans?

I'm also noticing for the first time the "long before the CCW was even a concept", which would be useful if we ever wanted to a approach a 3G timeline, to know UWW was founded before CCW was.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:13 am
  

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Axelmania wrote:
eliakon wrote:
The Foundation of the UWW was the Dwarves rescuing the Elves. No humans on the scene.
Humans joined some nebulous time afterwords.

This sounds like a retcon from one of the later books?

DB2p84 mentions the Warlocks ("diverse races") using a TW starship to reach the elf-controlled Star Kingdom. Pg 85 continues describing the alliance growing ("The Warlocks and the Elven Star Kingdom rallied their fleets, but they found themselves outnumbered") and THEN is when the dwarves arrived.

I don't know if the "diverse races" was ever elaborated on to explicitly exclude humans? DB5p87 uses the phrase "diverse alien races" which sounds pretty similar, do you think "alien" was added to imply non-humans?

I'm also noticing for the first time the "long before the CCW was even a concept", which would be useful if we ever wanted to a approach a 3G timeline, to know UWW was founded before CCW was.


Good call on the Warlocks - i guess most people tend to gloss over/forget about them because the Dwarves and Star Elves did get more fluff material with stats & all, even in the same book. I do remember something about a large chunk of the UWW being made of a Splugorth kingdom (or two) that freed itself, meaning there could be a large number of "splugorth minion" races amidst the UWW population.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:26 pm
  

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Knight

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They encountered and defeated a Splugorth (DB5 even gave its name, though apparently it might've been other Splugorth who ended up finishing it off?) so I would assume they have some freed planets, much like the TGE did.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:23 am
  

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Axelmania wrote:
They encountered and defeated a Splugorth (DB5 even gave its name, though apparently it might've been other Splugorth who ended up finishing it off?) so I would assume they have some freed planets, much like the TGE did.


Yes, there was even talk of some UWW citizens descended from Splugorth minion races acting as spies in other empires, if memory tricks me not.

While mechanically the same, to see some material on those Kitanni, Kidian &/or Altaran-descended populations (among others) and how they changed through ages as free citizens of the UWW and part of their nation's multigenerational espionage & guerrilla campaign against the Splugorth kingdoms, not to mention diplomatics relations with the TGE, another star-power with roots in rebelling against the Sploogs, would be something most interesting to see.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:57 am
  

Hero

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eliakon wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
Er, how many years after the UWW was founded did humans join? I had thought the Warlocks founders included humans.

The Foundation of the UWW was the Dwarves rescuing the Elves. No humans on the scene.
Humans joined some nebulous time afterwords.

Axelmania wrote:
Banning those who "demand" sacrifice isn't a hard line, since that still allows "encourage" or "accepts".

I am not going to get into a semantics debate and quibble about this.
Besides being against the ToS it is also pretty clearly against the intent of the published material.
And frankly... trying to weasel word the books to change the published material so as to turn what is presented as a "just and noble society of law abiding white magic users" into a den of dark magic that engages in the regular sacrifice of much of the population...
No, just No.


Axelmania wrote:
Quote:
they can not use it in the UWW as it is illegal due to the sacrifice needed.

Was that in DB2 or clarified in a later one?

There is nothing to clairify.
The process requires the murder of sentients.
Dark Magics that require murder are illegal.
Ergo, it is illegal.
Its Not That Hard.
We do not need the entire law library of the UWW published with the case law history of every spell, ritual and magical procedure known in the Three Galaxies...
We are told that they ban sacrifice, and thus that is what the presumption is.
To assume otherwise we will need an explicit statement to the contrary that the usual laws do NOT apply to Rune Magic.

Rune Magic requires the use of a soul, but I don't recall it requiring murder. Presumably their ban on sacrifice would not include allowing an old, powerful, good wizard to decide that they want to continue serving the cause of good by being turned into a new rune weapon. If such a ban even exists, that is; I only recall them banning service of deities unless those deities don't demand sacrifice. There is nothing a out the sacrifice od sentients dor the purposes of, say, completeting a spell as a ritual. If I've forgotten a relevant piece of text, please cite it.

Keep in mind that the UWW summons demons to use in their bottled demon missiles, which they do by binding them into a missile shell. That doesn't seem like the kind of thing done by a group woth problems enslaving sentient beings! They also have the planet of New Midgard as a member, populated by Asgardian Elves and Dwarves. Given that 75% of Asgardian Dwarves are Rune Smiths, it is highly unlikely that the planet has nobody there making rune weapons.

Oh, and 35% of Anvil Dwarves (the dwarves from original group of Dwarven Guildmasters) are versed in Rune Magic as well, per Dimension Book 5 pages 45-46, and no mention is made of them having to leave the UWW to make rune weapons.

So far all the evidence that I have found contradicts your assertions about the UWW.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:32 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
Dimension Book 3 page 35 (Law and Crime):
    The other rule enforced throughout the United Worlds is against the worship or service of "supernatural intelligences".
    To the eyes of the UWW, this category refers to any entity that feeds on the life energy of sentient beings.
    This includes vampires and most supernatural monsters.
    "Gods" who desire worship but do not demand human sacrifices are exempt from this law.

This is also reprinted, unmodified, on page 91 of Dimension Book 5.



Um, so...does this mean I can be arrested in The UWW if I'm a 'Stalker with delusions of Godhood whom has started a circle of worshipers? :twisted:
Would I still be arrestable if I only drained my followers on a regular basis instead of killing them? :lol:

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:41 pm
  

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dreicunan wrote:
<Much Snippage> Keep in mind that the UWW summons demons to use in their bottled demon missiles, which they do by binding them into a missile shell. That doesn't seem like the kind of thing done by a group woth problems enslaving sentient beings! <Even Mucher Snippage>


Well, they're DEMONS... Wait, no, that is another argument. :lol:

Seriously though, I was under the impression the imprisoned demons were essentially comatose until launch, and they are "freed" back to the hellhole they came from after the missile hit...
Wait, you're right, that IS eeeeevil! Being sent back to hell after being released into "heaven"!

... Does anyone else feel flashbacks to Buffy? ...

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:09 pm
  

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Champion

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Pretty sure making rune weapons involves NOT destroying the body as a matter of fact, so sacrifice in the traditional sense would not work with it.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:43 pm
  

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Knight

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Borast wrote:
Um, so...does this mean I can be arrested in The UWW if I'm a 'Stalker with delusions of Godhood whom has started a circle of worshipers? :twisted:
Would I still be arrestable if I only drained my followers on a regular basis instead of killing them? :lol:

If you are an entity that feeds on the life energy of sentient beings (such as a god) to be exempt from being considered a "supernatural intelligence" you must call yourself a "god", demand to be worshipped, and must not demand human sacrifice (you can demand Ratling or Elf or Dwarf sacrifices, of course)

If you do not abide by this, you are NOT breaking the law in any way, BUT it will be illegal for others to serve or worship you, so your worshipping / servicing minions will suffer criminal penalties.

If you must kill HUMAN beings, you should do it yourself, or gently suggest how much you would appreciate it to your worshippers without going so far as to demand it (it must be optional and politely requested, not coerced/ordered)


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:16 pm
  

Hero

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Regarding UWW and Rune Magic: starting equipment for all star Elves includes 2 weapons of choice, either technological or magical, but "nothing outrageous for the latter, and may be magic devices, enchanted weapons or even minor rune weapons." DB 5 p. 45, emphasis added.

So even more evidence that the UWW doesn't have a problem with rune magic. Odds are they aren't buying them from the Splugorth, given that the UWW attacks their vessels on sight (DB2 p. 86)!

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:08 pm
  

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Knight

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probably comes from those Asgardian Dwarves who are Rune Smiths


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:17 am
  

Hero

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Axelmania wrote:
probably comes from those Asgardian Dwarves who are Rune Smiths

That or the 35% of Anvil dwarves who are also able to make Rune Weapons.

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Axelmania wrote:
You of course, being the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not.
Declared the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not by Axelmania on 5.11.19.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:10 am
  

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dreicunan wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
probably comes from those Asgardian Dwarves who are Rune Smiths

That or the 35% of Anvil dwarves who are also able to make Rune Weapons.


Seriously, it's time like this that i feel kind of sorry for the Palladium dwarves for apparently being the only ones with moral missgivings about the making of Rune Weapons...


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:03 pm
  

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Knight

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They still seem to be against using other forms of magic, strangely enough, even though they are typically assisted by them.


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