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I can compromise and say that his comment was ambiguous enough to be taken multiple ways.


What ARE the implication of high speed?


Can you give an example of some of the penalties which some powers ignore which we should apply to anyone with high Spd attributes or other means of assigned speeds without perception notes?

No, it wasn't ambiguous, as I've already demonstrated.

Tunnel Vision would be the most significant in this context if you are already moving at high speed.

Ask your GM. This is actually irrelevant to my argument, which is merely that being granted the ability to move at high speed in and of itself does not mean one inherently gains improved perception.

My point in that regard, is if perception does not increase, is if you are a human with Spd 50 (say 30 by default, +20 from running/athletics) you would be 50x as likely to fall down as someone with Spd 1 when moving at your top speed.

Well, guess what, being fast as a human doesn't increase your perception!

Now, care to cite anything in support of this novel claim that someone with spd 50 is 50 time more likely to fall down at top speed than someone with spd 1?

That's not my claim, I'm saying that WOULD be the result if the required aspects of your agility/perception (ability to process your environment) did not increase proportionately with your ability to generate movement. Isn't that what you were saying about people flying around at mach speeds?

What exactly happens when someone has Fly as the Eagle cast at them? Are they unable to have aerial dogfight with other FATE-enchanted people because they lack the technology which allows people in mach fighter jets to do so?

Bad example.
Moving at relatively slow speeds and moving at super sonic speeds are rather different.
The claim that just because you can maneuver just fine at one, doesn't mean you can do the other.
More to the point simply because you can move that fast doesn't always mean that you can have an aerial dogfight in the first place!

The rules for moving targets give -6 to strike any target moving faster than 40 MPH. If using modern weapons that additionally counts as shooting wild which would be another -6 and an inability to call shots. if two Fly as the Eagle enhcnated people are fighting at 50 MPH, both would suffer these penalties. It wouldn't make combat between them impossible, merely highly inaccurate, and one might want to slow down for a turn to take aim.

"slow" is relative, I agree.

Meaning that while to someone with Spd 10, Spd 3 is slow, it is TOP SPEED for someone with Spd 3.

Just as to someone with Spd 30, Spd 10 would be slow, even though it's top speed for a lot of people.

I think there's some realistic assumption here that as you have more speed, you gain the cognitive ability to perceive your environment to be able to actually run at those speeds.

That assumption may (or may not) be true if that is your natural state.
But that assumption does not hold up if the speed is not natural.
And Astral Self/Astral Projection is not your natural state.

Hm, it is for some creatures... but even then if they spend most of their time on the Inner Plane (where you fly at normal speeds, not mach speeds) they still might not be accustomed to flying mach if they enter Earth to coexist with it.

Nightbane who start with Astral Self at 1st level and can spend an indefinite amount of time in astral form might also arguably adopt that as their natural state.

"Natural" is sort of a subjective declaration here. If it means "I'm now able to move at speeds I couldn't move at before" then this would also describe someone who suddenly quintipled from Spd 4 to Spd 20 by getting a maximal 4D4 bonus from the running skill by selecting it as a free skill upon a new experience level, or learning it in a matter of weeks via the time-based skill acquisition rules in HU (college) or Rifts (rogue scholar).

It's possible that a Nightbane could be spending years getting accustomed to his new speed compared to someone is 5x faster a runner than they were a couple weeks ago.

It would only be a natural state for something who's natural state is coexistence. Seriously, things that don't leave the Inner Planes wouldn't have the natural reflexes for this.

Which would mean that in the context of Nightbane... Tortorians and maybe Necrophim...
Oops.
So the Nightlords Minions are the ones that are able to handle this best and the Nighbane are out of their depth?
Hmmm, guess this is another reason why Nightbane are not winning the war solo


No, that is still not their natural state.
They are not naturally that way ergo that is not how they are designed to function.
They do not get a neurological system optimized for functioning that way.
"I can learn to do something unnatural" is not and can never be a natural state.



Again you are trying to make imaginary differences by comparing false equivalences.
A miniscule change in Spd, from 4 to 20 does not require changing your neurological systems to compensate.
A change from Spd 4 to 400+ does.
Especially if you are using an imaginary set up that requires that you change the meaning of several words, use an artificial change to the rules, and argue that the rules mean the opposite of what they state...

Training slowly where you build up your speed over a period of time incrementally, with the changes happening gradually and the end result having no appreciable difference to reaction times as measured by the normal range of your species and thus the normal level of neurological wiring and adaption of your species is nothing at all remotely like suddenly gaining speeds hundreds of times faster than the fastest members of your species in a matter of seconds, literally one second you have regular speed for your race the next you are moving hundreds of times faster than any member of your race has ever moved with out the assistance of advanced technology...
Not At All The Same
Trying to compare them is a fake equivalence.


1) You are still conflating two different things and trying to pretend that they are the same.
They are not.

2) A GM could allow at their table as a house rule that you can learn to compensate for super speeds sure...
...but it is nothing that is supported by the canon, nor is it a reason to suppose that Nightbane with Astral Self should be winning the war solo.

There aren't any "natural state" rules, and if your neurological system is wired to process something like the 3D6 Spd stat that humans get, it wouldn't be wired to process bonuses you get through training like 4D4 from Running.

YOU are the one that is claiming that this is natural and that thus you get the ability to process it.
Seriously your the one that claimed that the power provides all the abilities to handle it with out any problems.
So the lack of rules is your problem not mine.

Second off, once again you are trying to pretend that this is even remotely the same.
Which I will point out is false.
Especially since we have canon statements about what the "range of human atributes" are. And "the upper limit for human speed is a stat of 18" is not in any book
This means that while the average human may have a Speed of 10, and the normal roll is 3d6. That Humans have a much wider range than that.
So your argument that this is some sort of vast increase that is totally unatural and that no human would ever be able to deal with it is absurd.
Especially when you are trying to pretend that going from Speed 10 to Speed 26 is IDENTICAL IN EVERY WAY as going from Speed 10 to an effective Speed of, I believe 983.
I am sorry, but it is not.

I played World of Darkness games for many years, and in both Vampire game lines there is a power that allows you to project your mind into the Astral Plane. It is very clear that you can move at the speed of thought, but cannot perceive things clearly while moving that fast. So you may move from location to location near instantaneously, but must pause to look around, as you were unable to process the things you passed. While it is true that this is a different game, the concept is the same and can be considered for reference in the absence of a clear ruling from PB on the subject.
Do with that what you will.

Starting with Spd 3, if you say get up to Spd 21 from physical skill bonuses, that is x7 from where you began.

For a human who began with Spd 30 on the other hand, x7 would be Spd 210.

Unless we actually have rules for high-speed perception I'm not sure what we're arguing about...

Sure, but one represents a difference of 18, and the other a difference of 180. One represents something within the natural, normal bounds of human ability, the other doesn't.

But go ahead and test it! Get in you car and try driving at 1 mph vs 7, then 2 vs 14, then 3 vs 21, then 4 vs 28, etc, 10 vs 70, etc, all the way up to 20 vs 140, and then come back and tell us if you still think that all that matters is that it is x7 speed for affecting perception.

So like. Regardless of perception abilities... Can mach one astral stop and turn on a dime? If so, being pursued at equal speed, if your pursuer were a mere 10 feet behind you, all you'd really have to do is make a B line for any room smaller than the distance between you and make a hard turn... Find a bathroom or a broom closet or an elevator, and break hard right or left (less usefull to pull a 180) or what... can they go straight verticle?

Once you've changed your vector you're out of the tiny space before the pursuer enters the space, and can only hazard a guess at which vector you took.

I believe I may need to retract my concern with how Astral Self makes Nightbanes uber forever-Astral monsters... since Nightlands 142 appears to have mitigated Between's oversight:

Unless otherwise indicated, all Talents have a duration of one minute per level of experience, except certain combat oriented talents where the P.P.E. spent powers one attack or effect each time it is used.

I suppose one could interpret that as the Nightbane being forced to spend the 10 PPE to revert back to non-Astral form after 1 minute/level regardless of where they are. Which would suck if you were flying a mile in the air or something.

It's a little unclear to me how you would incorporate that interpretation if the Nightbane was out of PPE (just make them go negative?) or if they were in the astral plane (where physical creatures get converted to astral anyway)


I suppose it depends on whether penalties are additive or multiplicative.


Arbitrary classification. Psionic powers are natural inborn abilities, who's to say they aren't normal?


I don't think that's a fair example, because 1 v 2 is probably not an easily perceived difference since both would be slow enough to be below whatever my perceptive cutoff would be.


I don't remember rules like this in Nightbane, but I don't think it would hurt to adapt HU2p72's "Superhuman Speed Abilities in Combat" rules which requires "must have some time to reach a high speed" (1/2 attacks)

HU2p73's distance requirements ("each 10mph of speed requires at least 10 feet of running distance") seem like they ought to apply to flight as well, and also sound like an interesting requirement to incorporate for Astral Projection, which HU also has on pg 305.

Wouldn't hurt to apply these in reverse (slowing down as well as speeding up) and make them direction specific. So even if you are traveling 600mph east, if you want to accelerate to 600mph NORTH, you'd have to build up that vector from 0.

That is an impressive non sequitur.

That is an equally impressive non sequitur.

The point of the exercise isn't to tell the difference between 1 and 2, but to see if you believe that all that matters is that the increase is x7 for affecting perception.

I don't understand the logic of your exercise or what you're asking me to test.

Come to think of it: the driving rules in HU aren't affected by your Spd attribute so the idea that it would affect your perception in general seems unsupported.

If you apply speed-based penalties to percepton I would apply them to everybody equally. I wouldn't give any special exceptions to Torturians just because they're locked in astral form.

You are the one who stated: You are the one who claimed that the multiplier is what mattered. I'm asking you to test that in the real world. The aside about driving rules, however, has to be one of your most amusing non sequiturs ever, seeing as how it has nothing to do with the point of my exercise, which of course is to show that the multiplier is NOT all that matters.

If you think you can prove that a fixed addition to baseline speeds will produce the same disorientation in everyone, feel free. I imagine either of us would have trouble designing a study to demonstrate either proposed approach.

I'm saying we should re-center the conversation on actual results: do we even have speed-based penalties to perception or maneuvering statted out en masse? I'm thinking no, meaning we're not building from the ground-up.

Axel, just go look up any study on how vision works in perceiving relative movement. Actually, here, use this one as a starting point. Tunnel vision and grey-out are real things. Your idea that an increase of speed of x7 producing the same disorienting effect is disproven by the mere existence of a threshold for where grey-out begins (about 72 mph, for the curious). Also, I never claimed that adding a fixed addition to baseline speeds would produce the same disorientation in everyone. I did claim that just because one acquires the ability to move at a vastly increased speed doesn't mean that your ability to perceive things automatically improves.

"about" being the key word, they actually phrase it "It is estimated that the average human" so they don't make it clear just how much it varies from that average.

For simplicity, if we said the average human has a Spd of 12 (I realize it'd 10.5 but lessay enough take Athletics or Running to boost that a bit) then grayout would start at Spd x 6 mph. Do we know for sure it wouldn't happen at 18mph for a Spd 3 human?

Of course, maybe it's not linked to speed at all, maybe it's linked to IQ? Or maybe we don't actually have rules for grayout so we don't even know what to base it on.

The "for humans" implies possible different averages for other species, so there could be differences for other species.

I'd like to know if you think there would be grayout threshold differences between a 4D6 speed race vs a 3D6 race who gets +4D4 from Running, and what you think those would be. Have you come up with some Grayout perception penalties?

Axel, we know that grayout (precursor to tunnel vision happens). We know that it starts occurring at speeds WELL below 670 mph. Whether the game has specific rules for it doesn't change that fact.

Now, do we have specific penalties in the game for perception? I'm honestly not sure at the moment because my books aren't at hand, and for me this discussion has been about the basic principle. This all started because YOU suggested, on Nov. 28th, 2018, that at 670 mph it should be easy to fly out of eyeline and hide in the middle of some wall or floor. Sharkforce mentioned that Torturians can move just as fast, and I suggested on Nov. 29th that in this situation it might be appropriate to roll initiative to see if the pursuer can keep track of the one attempting to flee. Sharkforce asserted that beings must have an innate ability to handle these kinds of speed, because otherwise rolemaster levels of rules and charts (I'm paraphrasing). I pointed out that the rules don't say anything about it, and that merely being granted the ability to move at a speed doesn't mean being granted the ability to handle the implications of moving at that speed. Then Eliakon supported my position and he Sharkforce and I debated for a while.

Then you jumped back in, and I ended up having to remind you that the whole thing started with your post! Then you kept on trying to demonstrate that I had taken what Sharkforce said out of context, despite repeated explanations of why that wasn't the case.

Then back in February you started claiming that a multiplication in one's speed made one that many times more likely to trip if one's perception did not increase. And now we are on this tangent.

Now, down to nuts and bolts, back to what started this all. I'd still suggest that if an astral traveler on the material plane is trying to pull a stunt to get out of the view of an astral pursuer by flying through solid things to get out of sight, I'd have the fleer and the pursuer roll initiative to see if it works. If it fails, the pursuer keeps on the fleer's tail. If it fails and the fleer attempted to stop in the middle of something solid, the pursuer crashes right into him!

To the broader issues of perception penalties, Nekira already noted the penalties to strike for firing at targets moving more than 40mph. That might be a good place to start for applying perception penalties. However, given how relative that can be, it might be better for gms to just eyeball it according to general principles rather than try to create a specific system, given the massive number of variables involved.

Thank you for the summary. Unless we can actually figure out the implications of high speeds (say by a human trying to pay attention to stuff he drives by on a 700mph hovercycle) whether or not specific beings can ignore the implications seems like a moot consideration.

What could be useful here are "dogtail" rules that fighter planes use, I remember some being in the TMNT galaxy guide, and perhaps in Phase World.

Well, since this is Nightbane, why not start with perception rolls! The GM can figure out the target difficulty and any penalties that he feels should be imposed on a case by case basis.

I originally went with initiative for the posited situation of someone trying a high speed maneuver to shake a tail because it involved not only noticing but also reacting in time, and when possible I'd prefer keeping it to one roll over two. Also, one would presume that the person chasing someone is normally focused on the person that they are tailing's movements. More generally, however, just figuring out if you perceive something while moving at high speed can certainly be handled by a perception roll.