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filo_clarke · **Posted:** Thu Nov 27, 2014 11:17 am

Simply put, at what range do you begin to be affected by Horror Factor? If you see a dragon in the distance, do you have to roll then, or only when it gets close-up? I don't know if it has been addressed anywhere, but a cursory search of the boards didn't yield any answers.

I ask because of a situation in my Nightbane game; one of the characters rolled up his Morphus, and ended up with a Ken/Barbie. While the Morphus bumped his attributes, his PB and MA weren't raised above 16, so the player has said that his Morphus form is simply a slightly more muscular/toned version of his Facade, and therefore can be worn in public as his day-to-day self. My retort was about the Horror Factor/Awe Factor, which is only a 7, but still present and must make normal humans somewhat uncomfortable/terrified, some of the time.

But when, exactly?

If someone sees him across the street, do they "feel" the Horror/Awe Factor? What about his reflection in a mirror? Or through a closed window? Is Horror Factor even something that is sight-based, or is it an aura? Can it be blocked by barriers, or not?

Official sources are appreciated, but I am also interested in people's opinions in this regard.

MaxxSterling · **Posted:** Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:09 am

I always assumed at any range, just seeing it. However, I feel this is a reasonable question. I'm sure anything you get will be house rules. But still, a good question.

Antimony · **Joined:** Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:51 pm **Posts:** 47

filo_clarke wrote:

Simply put, at what range do you begin to be affected by Horror Factor? If you see a dragon in the distance, do you have to roll then, or only when it gets close-up? I don't know if it has been addressed anywhere, but a cursory search of the boards didn't yield any answers.

I ask because of a situation in my Nightbane game; one of the characters rolled up his Morphus, and ended up with a Ken/Barbie. While the Morphus bumped his attributes, his PB and MA weren't raised above 16, so the player has said that his Morphus form is simply a slightly more muscular/toned version of his Facade, and therefore can be worn in public as his day-to-day self. My retort was about the Horror Factor/Awe Factor, which is only a 7, but still present and must make normal humans somewhat uncomfortable/terrified, some of the time.

But when, exactly?

If someone sees him across the street, do they "feel" the Horror/Awe Factor? What about his reflection in a mirror? Or through a closed window? Is Horror Factor even something that is sight-based, or is it an aura? Can it be blocked by barriers, or not?

Official sources are appreciated, but I am also interested in people's opinions in this regard.

I've always ruled it as whatever makes the story better. As to all your examples, I'd rule that yes, people would be affected seeing the morphus in a mirror, closed window, or reflection. Dependent on the morphus, I'd also rule "victims" of the Horror Factor might have to roll to save versus Horror Factor if the character is detected by other senses, as well.

What kind of Ken/Barbie is the Morphus? Animal Magnetism? Physical Perfection? Something else? Try playing with ideas based on them. For example, those with Animal Magnetism, beyond looks, might exude a "pheromone" that mildly attracts those of the opposite gender and subtly "warns" those of the same sex; in short, a predator during mating season. It doesn't just have to be the way he looks, but maybe the he moves, his posture, or his general demeanor.

Finally, while it's not from Nightbane, there's an option in Heroes Unlimited that might help: (an optional hero template) Has a Horror Factor . . . People, even those who come to befriend the character, feel uncomfortable around him and may never come to fully trust him. The H.F. comes into play against those who don't know him whenever the character makes his appearance . . . known. Against those who know him, the H.F. applies only when he makes a hostile move or threat against them. (Heroes Unlimited Revised, 2nd Edition, page 182-3 )

I'll look through my Nightbane book for other thoughts and rulings.

Prysus · **Posted:** Fri Nov 28, 2014 4:23 pm

Greetings and Salutations. When does Horror Factor apply? Good question! Not one I'd ever really given much thought to before. So first, I'll try to address this using the book. Then I'll add in my opinions. So I'll start by using the main book. While you mention Nightbane, I'm going to use PF2 (page 48) or RUE (page 367) as their wording is slightly different than the Nightbane one.

First, is it visual or aura? That's answered in the description.

Quote:

The horror factor represents either the hideous appearance of the monster or its overwhelming aur of evil and power (or a combination of the two).

So it can be either. In the case of a Ken/Barbie, probably has to be the aura (as it's not "hideous"). I'm not sure that'll change much of the rest of the topic, but trying to best answer your question. Now onto when you roll. This is where the PF2/RUE versions may add some new insight.

Quote:

A slobbering creature, with a horror factor of 10, emerges from a crypt. All character who see it must roll to save against horror.

This is in the example, and it says "see" within the description. That's visual based, and about the best we get by the book. As for my opinions on how to best handle it ...

----

For game mechanics, it makes it best to simply rule when someone sees the character. This makes it easy to rule and stay consistent. However, if you want to make it a bit more complex ...

Decide if it's one or the other. Visual is vision based, and aura is aura based. If it's both, either (or both) can be applied. Visual is, naturally, based upon anyone who sees the character. Aura is based by anyone within range of the character. Deciding range on aura is a G.M. call, but the psionic is 60 feet (18.3 m) while the spell is 100 feet (30.5 m), pick which one you feel best using (or make a different range). Now the book states you need to have visual to see their aura, which makes sense. But in this case, I'd say anyone within that radius as you're not seeing the aura, but feelings its overwhelming presence. So anyone within range (in front, behind, above, etc.) would make the save, whether they can see the character or not.

That's at least a couple ideas of how to handle it. Hope they helped. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

filo_clarke · **Posted:** Sat Nov 29, 2014 10:57 am

Quote:

What kind of Ken/Barbie is the Morphus? Animal Magnetism? Physical Perfection? Something else? Try playing with ideas based on them. For example, those with Animal Magnetism, beyond looks, might exude a "pheromone" that mildly attracts those of the opposite gender and subtly "warns" those of the same sex; in short, a predator during mating season. It doesn't just have to be the way he looks, but maybe the he moves, his posture, or his general demeanor.

Specifically, he has Physical Perfection and Living Tattoos (which are under his control). He keeps his tattoos on one arm most of the time, but moves them when he wants to look imposing (or when he loses control, becomes angry/scared, etc.).

I like the Heroes Unlimited idea, where people are just generally uncomfortable around him. They never really trust him, and would roll a Horror Factor when he does something specifically "inhuman".

Antimony · **Joined:** Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:51 pm **Posts:** 47

filo_clarke wrote:

Specifically, he has Physical Perfection and Living Tattoos (which are under his control). He keeps his tattoos on one arm most of the time, but moves them when he wants to look imposing (or when he loses control, becomes angry/scared, etc.).

I like the Heroes Unlimited idea, where people are just generally uncomfortable around him. They never really trust him, and would roll a Horror Factor when he does something specifically "inhuman".

Ooh, I always did love the living tattoos. :demon:

They can definitely add to a Horror Factor, whether they're eyes that are just a little too realistic, or Rorschach ink drawings with a disturbing tendency to reflect darker motives or passions (or whatever), living tattoos are among my favorite characteristic to use. :ok:

And the Physical Perfection can also easily rack up suspicion, fear, awe, or lust (ever see one of those models from clothing catalogs and you immediately think, that's just not natural . . . )?

Killer Cyborg · **Posted:** Sun Nov 30, 2014 2:07 pm

Prysus wrote:

Decide if it's one or the other. Visual is vision based, and aura is aura based. If it's both, either (or both) can be applied. Visual is, naturally, based upon anyone who sees the character. Aura is based by anyone within range of the character. Deciding range on aura is a G.M. call, but the psionic is 60 feet (18.3 m) while the spell is 100 feet (30.5 m), pick which one you feel best using (or make a different range). Now the book states you need to have visual to see their aura, which makes sense. But in this case, I'd say anyone within that radius as you're not seeing the aura, but feelings its overwhelming presence. So anyone within range (in front, behind, above, etc.) would make the save, whether they can see the character or not.

Agreed. It depends on the source of the Horror.
If it's coming from an Aura of some kind just pick a reasonable range (as above).
If the Horror is coming from the knowledge of what you're up against, then I'd say that the HF kicks in as soon as recognition is.
If you can see the Lord of the Deep on your Sonar screen, and you know what that means, I could see HF kicking in then.

glitterboy2098 · **Posted:** Sun Nov 30, 2014 5:20 pm

if it is because of some odd physical features, i'd say it kicks when your close enough to make out those details.

lassic · **Joined:** Sun Aug 30, 2015 1:38 pm **Posts:** 4

I would like to get some input on when a roll is necessary if the individual itself has a HF? I always functioned off of the rule that if there is a difference in HF that would be the basis of the roll. i.e. a vampire with HF 12 meets a Seljuk HF 11, each would roll with a modifier based off of the difference. Seljuk -1 and the Vampire +1. What do you all think of that?

Alrik Vas · **Posted:** Fri Oct 23, 2015 6:31 pm

I think, for the purpose of the mechanics for HF, the roll shouldn't come until combat has been declared, and the HF check comes before initiative is rolled.

Prior to that, go-go GM describing some gross/terrifying/stupefying stuff.

drewkitty ~..~ · **Posted:** Fri Oct 23, 2015 6:59 pm

Thinking abotu it I always presumed that HF was line of sight, and seeing the being.

Alrik Vas · **Posted:** Fri Oct 23, 2015 7:32 pm

That might be true. My point was HF should have impact when it matters. From a RP perspective, the group sees the wide arcing trail of fire from a Dragon's belly turn a village to ash as it impossibly flies with a deadly grace...From a km away.

Why roll HF then? Let the players gulp and hope big bad doesn't come their way.

If the Dragon spots them and decides they're next, still no roll. It's far and the PCs can decide for themselves how calm they are. When the Dragon attacks, it's HF takes full effect.

filo_clarke · **Posted:** Sat Oct 24, 2015 12:35 am

Alrik Vas wrote:

That might be true. My point was HF should have impact when it matters. From a RP perspective, the group sees the wide arcing trail of fire from a Dragon's belly turn a village to ash as it impossibly flies with a deadly grace...From a km away.

Why roll HF then? Let the players gulp and hope big bad doesn't come their way.

If the Dragon spots them and decides they're next, still no roll. It's far and the PCs can decide for themselves how calm they are. When the Dragon attacks, it's HF takes full effect.

How would you apply this to my original example: The Nightbane that looks human, but still exudes a horror factor? Should he be allowed to walk down the street without provoking the saving throw? Is the Horror Factor roll only applicable when he enters combat with another being?

Alrik Vas · **Posted:** Sat Oct 24, 2015 1:21 am

Yeah, I'd say horror factor only applies when it impacts play directly. The normal human looking nightbane would exhibit their supernatural power when being threatening.

If they're just walking down the street in their normal looking morphus, people would instinctively steer clear, but its like a vampire. No one is scared of them until they bare fangs, ya know?

SpiritInterface · **Posted:** Sat Oct 24, 2015 6:06 am

The maximum range is when you have enough of a lead that you are assured of getting away.

Marcethus · **Posted:** Sun Jul 03, 2016 7:57 pm

Having just read the Physical Perfection trait. It specifically says that an aura of danger is projected. I would rule close proximity (ie around 30ft) for that particular effect because of the aforementioned Aura. As has been stated previously it all depends on if the source of the HF is aura-based or visual or a combination of the two.

Mostly I make players do their HF rolls when it is appropriate to the story and before combat style actions are taken. This could be actual combat or just quick on your feet thinking needed for 'emergency' situations.

torjones · **Posted:** Sun Jul 10, 2016 7:34 pm

filo_clarke wrote:

Simply put, at what range do you begin to be affected by Horror Factor? If you see a dragon in the distance, do you have to roll then, or only when it gets close-up? I don't know if it has been addressed anywhere, but a cursory search of the boards didn't yield any answers.

I ask because of a situation in my Nightbane game; one of the characters rolled up his Morphus, and ended up with a Ken/Barbie. While the Morphus bumped his attributes, his PB and MA weren't raised above 16, so the player has said that his Morphus form is simply a slightly more muscular/toned version of his Facade, and therefore can be worn in public as his day-to-day self. My retort was about the Horror Factor/Awe Factor, which is only a 7, but still present and must make normal humans somewhat uncomfortable/terrified, some of the time.

But when, exactly?

If someone sees him across the street, do they "feel" the Horror/Awe Factor? What about his reflection in a mirror? Or through a closed window? Is Horror Factor even something that is sight-based, or is it an aura? Can it be blocked by barriers, or not?

Official sources are appreciated, but I am also interested in people's opinions in this regard.

IIRC, RAW states that the source of the horror factor must be upset with you, either specifically or as a group, so an eldrich horror just walking past may be scary, but not enough to trigger a HF check. I treat Awe Factor the same way, if they aren't trying to be/do something then them just being there isn't enough to trigger.

As for range, I believe it states LoS.

I believe that these clarifications were made in one of the rifters, but I don't currently have access to them to verify. All of the main rule books I've checked all state the same three paragraphs that have been cut and pasted between every rule book since 1983 (or there abouts). The only thing that I've ever seen change is that in RUE Tom was changed to Thom for some reason.

Marcethus · **Posted:** Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:30 am

I know this may sound dumb but what book is RAW referring to?

glitterboy2098 · **Posted:** Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:57 pm

RAW = Rules as Written

basically the literal interpretation of the written material

Marcethus · **Posted:** Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:17 pm

glitterboy2098 wrote:

RAW = Rules as Written

basically the literal interpretation of the written material

Thanks.

In that case:

torjones wrote:

filo_clarke wrote:

Simply put, at what range do you begin to be affected by Horror Factor? If you see a dragon in the distance, do you have to roll then, or only when it gets close-up? I don't know if it has been addressed anywhere, but a cursory search of the boards didn't yield any answers.

I ask because of a situation in my Nightbane game; one of the characters rolled up his Morphus, and ended up with a Ken/Barbie. While the Morphus bumped his attributes, his PB and MA weren't raised above 16, so the player has said that his Morphus form is simply a slightly more muscular/toned version of his Facade, and therefore can be worn in public as his day-to-day self. My retort was about the Horror Factor/Awe Factor, which is only a 7, but still present and must make normal humans somewhat uncomfortable/terrified, some of the time.

But when, exactly?

If someone sees him across the street, do they "feel" the Horror/Awe Factor? What about his reflection in a mirror? Or through a closed window? Is Horror Factor even something that is sight-based, or is it an aura? Can it be blocked by barriers, or not?

Official sources are appreciated, but I am also interested in people's opinions in this regard.

IIRC, RAW states that the source of the horror factor must be upset with you, either specifically or as a group, so an eldrich horror just walking past may be scary, but not enough to trigger a HF check. I treat Awe Factor the same way, if they aren't trying to be/do something then them just being there isn't enough to trigger.

As for range, I believe it states LoS.

I believe that these clarifications were made in one of the rifters, but I don't currently have access to them to verify. All of the main rule books I've checked all state the same three paragraphs that have been cut and pasted between every rule book since 1983 (or there abouts). The only thing that I've ever seen change is that in RUE Tom was changed to Thom for some reason.

Where does it state that the entity with HF has to be upset at you for it's HF to be in effect?

drewkitty ~..~ · **Posted:** Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:33 pm

When the char is fully cognizant of the being is when the full effects of their HF come into effects while being in LoS and in close proximity.

No, close proximity can't be put into a feet/meters measurement because close proximity is variable.

Marcethus · **Posted:** Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:38 pm

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

When the char is fully cognizant of the being is when the full effects of their HF come into effects while being in LoS and in close proximity.

No, close proximity can't be put into a feet/meters measurement because close proximity is variable.

I agree that Close Proximity can't be put into an exact distance, which is why when I said it I said around x feet as a rough gauge.

Prysus · **Posted:** Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:11 am

Marcethus wrote:

torjones wrote:

IIRC, RAW states that the source of the horror factor must be upset with you, either specifically or as a group, so an eldrich horror just walking past may be scary, but not enough to trigger a HF check. I treat Awe Factor the same way, if they aren't trying to be/do something then them just being there isn't enough to trigger.

As for range, I believe it states LoS.

I believe that these clarifications were made in one of the rifters, but I don't currently have access to them to verify. All of the main rule books I've checked all state the same three paragraphs that have been cut and pasted between every rule book since 1983 (or there abouts). The only thing that I've ever seen change is that in RUE Tom was changed to Thom for some reason.

Where does it state that the entity with HF has to be upset at you for it's HF to be in effect?

Greetings and Salutations. Wow, it's been literal years since I've posted in this thread. Anyways, a few possibilities of what he might be thinking of comes to mind.

1: He mentioned the Rifters. I found Rifters #20 and #48 have Q&A sections that mention Horror Factor. I didn't see any reference that it only activates when someone is upset at you though, but I could have missed it (I don't think so). There's also the possibility that it's found in another Rifter issue I overlooked.

2: In my Horror Factor: Expanded Rules I mention that Creatures of Magic can inflict Horror Factor based upon their moods (which usually means when they're angry with someone). This is an expansion on the existing rules and they're completely optional house rules, but I have had people remember them before and mistakenly think they were from a book (going from memory).

3: This can be inferred by the text of Horror Factor to a degree. I've done some research on Horror Factor rules since my last post (and I've forgotten some of it as well). However, rolling seems to be a result of combat, not a simple visual (though visuals may still be required). On page 48 of PF2 (main book), and similar found on RUE and other books, the last sentence of the first paragraph reads: "Fortunately, the character only needs to roll for the first melee round of each encounter, not every melee of combat."

This implies that you roll once, at the start of combat. So, by extension, if the monster is deciding to attack you (or vice versa), the two of you will not be on good terms. This is further supported by the fact that all the negatives for failing a Horror Factor are combat penalties. If you walk into a room, fail your horror factor, no one starts a fight for 15 seconds, you can fight that horrific (yet peaceful) monster without penalty. This, to me, would seem to go against the spirit of the mechanic. If you wonder why it would take combat to activate a Horror Factor, I could reason it out this way: Fight or Flight! Once combat becomes real, adrenaline kicks in and you're faced with that fight or flight instinct. Those who pass can fight. Those who fail want to run, but the best they can do is be stunned for a moment and fight with a bit of a handicap.

None of that is concrete or anything, but just a few possibilities. I just wanted to provide some ideas. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

P.S. You know, at some point I thought of a really nice house rule to address the range of a horror factor aura, but I never wrote it down and now I've forgotten. I think it may have varied upon level, as well as category (sub, lesser, greater), but I can't recall. Stupid faulty memory. >_<

Marcethus · **Posted:** Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:12 am

the Expanded HF thing is interesting and puts an interesting spin on it with the various types of HF. Very well written.

Voodoolaw · **Joined:** Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:33 pm **Posts:** 98

I agree with Prysus' interpretation, that it kicks in with combat. I have always felt it was that gut check when you go to engage it within the general area of its presence. Rule of thumb for me would be to ask, is it an immediate (or possible) threat and/or aware of the character? Horror Factor has always seemed a supernatural effect to me, so I usually just make judgement calls.

guardiandashi · **Joined:** Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:21 am **Posts:** 1211

it may be just my opinion, but I can see where the horror/awe factor is likely going to be situational triggers.

one thing that makes me think of that is watching Deadpool, and Gods of Egypt (movies) of course stuff like the Aliens series also factors in.

With that said my thought is that you are going to have a number of variables that can trigger a check.

1 is it an appearance based check, or an aura trigger, or a combination.
I would tend to say if its a visual trigger then as long as you can "clearly" see whatever provokes the check it might trigger, using the gods of Egypt example you are able to see Horus/Set and they "transform" you are likely to have to make a check as the "transformation" counts as a trigger.

using the "aura" definition if you "know" just how bad/nasty Darth Vader is in star wars any time he gets irritated anyone in "range" is going to have to make a save or cower (the whole please don't kill me effect)
with a person who has "unusual features" I would say as soon as you notice something out of the ordinary, OR they make an aggressive action that is likely to trigger a check.

I realize my answers are rather vague but its one of those cases where there are a lot of variables.

RainbowDevil · **Joined:** Sun May 29, 2016 3:45 am **Posts:** 106

Keep in mind, just because someone has HF/AF (Awe Factor), doesn't mean people they walk past down the streets are necessarily going to go running. If someone fails, it only makes them pause for their first action. So, in the case of "Mr Perfect", it could simply be people turning around to look at him again as he passes, people staring in corridors, stopping their water cooler conversation to glare for several seconds, etc.

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