Forums of the Megaverse®

• Multiple Selves
• Mirror Mastery - PU1
• Energy Doppleganger - PU1

For this The Main form will be known as "Alpha"

15th level mutant
Alpha makes a Mirror Copy and an Energy Doppleganger
Alpha then makes 15 copies via Multiple Selves. The Mirror of Alpha makes an Energy Doppleganger. (We are now 19 strong)

Now the Multiple Selves only have Mirror Mastery and Energy Doppleganger. Each Multiple makes an Energy Dopple Ganger (thats 15 more bring us to 34) The each Multiple Self also makes a Mirror Image (another 15 making us 49). Each Mirror Image (15) makes an Energy Doppleganger bringing us to 64)

Alpha
15 Multiple Selves
16 Mirror Images
32 Energy Dopplegangers

Completely book legal.

I would be interested in watching all 64 of them getting wipped out by a super with a Strongly defensive power like APS Liquid and something good against multipule people like Control Radiation.

I'll see you with 1 Mega experiment with 3 major powers.

Invunerability.
APS: Plasma
CEF: Air

Mega Power: Tremendous PS
Acheiles Heal: God Syndrome.

What does happen to the main character when Mirror Copies and an Energy Dopplegangers get killed? I know that bad things happen when you start lossing multiple selves....

Billy Numerous in Teen Titans!

they always kick his butt.

Radiation wouldnt affect the energy dopplegangers. And the mass self explosion that they could perform would surely hamper the APS Liquid character.

Could be effective as long as the original can stay out of the fight.

One called shot to the head could end things pretty quickly though.

Might as well call the hero One Man Platoon.

Thats cool I can't beleive I didn't think of that. Alpha makes the perfect villian for sure. His major offensive power is the energy dopplegangers (wether they explode or not)

and mirror mastery isn't a bad power either. if each duplicate had a full-sized mirror(they would want to have one anyway for mirror duplicates), there'd be mirror blasts all over the place!

Book legal or not, that still got be a "munchkin" offence, if nothin' else.

even "Munchkin" ideas are useful. They can give us other ideas or if you have a group of "munchkins" it gives you something to use against them.

pfft. the entire army is defeated by Anyone with CEF AIR and APS Void. ...
Create a tornado, suck them all into vacuum then as for the explosions hmm.. could be a problem.. but that's why you take out the leader...




Or just send a single blaze alien and give him a Super shield to autoparry everything..

You can always come up with something to beat any concept. But that doesn't change the coolness of the original idea.

I would actually say that the Energy Dopplegangers would be immune to the tornado effexts since they are immune to bullets/punches/etc.. (thats if memory serves me correctly. I dont have the book with me - I will retract this if THE BOOKproves me wrong).

I'll remember you said that Shadow!!

Ahh man......no way. Not for at least another 2 levels come on............ we need time to get stronger (not to mention get team work going)

*sigh* ok Shadow i can wait until you gain another 2 levels, but I can't wait untill there's team work in the group (when will that ever happen??) lol

I started to think about this some more. You only need 2 major powers to get more numbers than the multpile beings/energy doppleganger/mirror mastery combo.

mimic and multiple beings .......thats it! you're 15th level, so you can make 15 duplicates (16 total). Then they in turn mimic your duplication power and bam! They make 15 duplicates each and you now have 231. I'll stop there, you can already see how the chain will go. If you want to get powerful just add another major power.

The 60' radius will start to become real cumbersome to kep track of with that many duplicates on the field.

and someone with negate super powers is gonna Reduce all those bad guys into one and if he meets someone with mimic he just lost the match.

uh yea....someone with negate super ablities would even beat the original concept, what's your point?

Fact remains.I still got the most numbers and mimic has a 100ft range and lasts for 2d4 minutes after you get out of range. sounds like enough time to open a can of butt woop to me

The original statemnet was "One man army (book legal)" not "one man unstopable army that can kill anyone in his way (book legal)"

It's not?
What a gyp...

and if you wanna get even worse i had a power from before that where the character can create 1 duplicate at level 1, 2 new ones at level 3, 3 more at level 5, and so on. but that wouldn't be book legal.

I had a guy with multiple selves. Then they all underwent full bionic reconstruction. I'd rather have 8 borgs than 64 normal guys.

Also GMed a guy in Rifts with Mirror Mastery who could pilot a Glitterboy. Kinda cool being able to fire lasers and launch a clone out of your own PA.

You could mop the floor with these guys if you had the right power arrangement. For heaven sake, the guy has no eye beams, no incredible strength, no flight powers etc....

The Energy Doppleganers have energy blasts, as do the Mirror Duplicates.

What! Oh.... better rethink my plan to take down such a character.

Actually I came up with this same concept around mid november) for a villain on EU with the then at the time gm,he did a wow and said no,so then i made him with multiple selves, mind control and negate superpower instead, and he said no to that,so then negate superpowers was changed to aps shadow and he was dubbed the shadow king.................. but never got to play him cause the game flopped and reset before it ever got started,gm left and took idea's with him due to life problems.

Great minds think alike, either that or you were that gm.

Concept I had for a character, Multiple selves and Control insects and arachnids, at level 15 there is him and 15 duplicates each capable of creating 3 giant insects, so that’s 48 giant insects, if they all die? no big deal wait 24 hours and a brand new army is ready and waiting.

The way I figured he could spilt into multiples then summon the giant insects and just bugger off leaving his temporary disposable army to do all the work for him.

The numbers are actually greater because Alpha's Mirror Copy can also create 15 multiple selves of himself, and each respectively comes with their own weak energy doppleganger.

One serious limitation to all this is of course, that with 16 mirror copies, you will need 16 full length mirrors

uhm,good point,switch mirrormastery with swarm selves,let's you got about 10 mini you,each of your multiples breaks down into ten mini yous and each one still had doppleganger,so that would be about 150 energy mini's and 150 regular mini's.

I would like to see the whole character fleshed out.

Then make it. I aint gonna do it for you.

*Pulls out a big stick with NERF stenciled in large print on it*

*Beats NMI mercilessly, because someone should*



Very cool concept...I wish I had my books with me so I could look at these powers closer. They need some kind of offensive boost. Are all three of those powers major? If you take these three powers as a Megahero that can get more than 3 major (like the option of getting powers as you level up) then you can add some offense (and defense) by giving Matter Expulsion: Metal, or APS Plasma.

Or you could make this person an Arismal Alien and have up to...

• 2 Majors and 1D4+1 Minors (and most of us trade in 2 Minors for 1 Major, so this could be up 4 Majors and 1 Minor)
• 3 Majors or
• 8 Super Psionic Powers

Whoa.... I dont know, Such a powerful guy.

Awww Cripes! 2Majors and 1D4+1 minors! I thought it was 1D6+1 minors...

Well there goes my attempt to make me own Super♂

Where is Energy Doppleganger in the books? I think I am going to make this guy up, just for fun. With three major powers, I will make him an experiment, and call him Pack.

I will probably make up the Mimic/Multiple Selves guy as well. Make this one a mutant, give him a slightly demonic appearance, and call him Legion. Should be a fun baddy for players to face off against.

nice, just dont get spied by a sniper doing this, or one shot and it is all over.

Oh boy... I made the guy. I found a real good way to make him, too. Ironically, the only powers he has that were given, and not random, were Mimic, Multiple Selves, and Energy Doppleganger.

Legion

Power Catagory: Godling (PU2)
Level:15
IQ 15 (+6%)
ME 15
MA 25 (84%)
PS 30 (+15)
PP 18 (+2)
PE 25 (+20%)
PB 20 (50%)
SPD 30
HP 605
SDC 600

Combat
APM 16
Init. +11
Str. +4
Par. +7
Dod. +7
Disarm & entangle: +8
Pull Punch: +15
Roll +8
Death Blow: 16-20
A.R.: 14

Saves: Magic +9, psionics -4, H.F. +18, possession +13, and Poison +5

Powers: Grows with age and experience.
Mimic
Multiple Beings
Energy Doppleganger
Natural Combat Ability
(rolled 51% on chart in PU3) Force Strike
Force Blast

Mega Hero Powers:
Immortality
Extra Major Power Swarm Selves (I about fell out of my chair when I rolled this one...)

Achilles Heal:
Vulnerable to Psionics

Abilities (most of them):
Back Flip 98%, Paired Weapons, Exceptional Balance 98%.

Energy Doppleganger lasts for (on average) 7.5 hours, has 700 SDC, and 16 attacks per melee. Energy Blast does 5D6+15, and has a range of 450 ft.

Can make 7 copies of himself with Multiple Beings.

Force Strike has a range of 75ft.

Force Blast: Range: 96 ft. 12 ft. wide. Does 2d6 damage to everything in its path, and there is a 70% chance of knockdown. If it does, target loses two attacks per melee and init.

All of the above stuff is really not important. What is important is the number of guys that can be around after 30 seconds. That magic number is (and I did the math twice, so it should be right) 226, 074, 357, 616 BEFORE using swarm self. If he then pops swarm self, there will be 27,354,996,271,536 guys. Yes, ladies and gentleman, that is 27 TRILLION. Of course, there is still Energy Doppleganger for another 226 billion. (we are going to assume that after using swarm self, one can't use Energy Doppleganger to make 27 trillion copies.)

Effectively, if this was a bad guy, he takes on the world, and wins. The only real way to defeat him is to drop a nuke on him, and hope it atomizes him.

For the powers he has, note that at level 15 with the category "power grows with experience and level", you have, at level 15, 6 major powers. Under the Godling in the Immortal section of PU2, for mega powers, it says you can have one extra mega power or one major super power. I randomly rolled to see which one, and got another major, for a total of 7 powers. However, he only has six, as one of the rolls on the major powers table was a 51%, and I again randomly rolled for another major of choice, or two minors, and got two minors.

Stopping him before he pulls a "Mr. Smith" would be nigh impossible. By the time the alarm was raised that something bad was going down, and the heroes rush to the scene, there will be billions of him. If he just duplicated until the opposition arrived, which would be several minutes at best, there is no way he would be stopped. How do you tell which is the real one? How do you get to that one with trillions of guys in the way?

Deific NMI, do you see what you have done? This is all your fault.

20 nerd points to anyone that gets the "Mr. Smith" reference.

But if you're talking about the (VERY) old Mimic + Multiple Beings trick, it has been pointed out here on the boards ALLOT By NMI that he personally doesn't allow for that combo to work since he feels that Clones share the same Signature as the Originating Super!

Most GM's just plain forbid this power combo, And even 'I' have only allowed That power combo three times in three games because in All three situations the players came up with REALLY good reasons why it was pulled off.

1) In the First case I had a player who Only had Mimicry and one minor power who came across a villian who had 'Multiple Beings', Invulnerability, and some Other bad ars power.
So Naturally That villain thought he was a bad @rs and would win the fight with all of his copy army of 3 Hims (He was level 5). The other player used Multiple Beings out to infinity [2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512,1K,2K,4K,8K,16K...ETC] and didn't even have to lay a finger on the villian... who stared at the Still ever increasing army and said "I give up"... Short Non-violant end game.

2) In the SECOND game a player wanted to JUST have Mimicry + Multiple Beings because he wanted an army of Normal people. (Called himself Joe American)... In THAT case I Only allowed his Mimicry to work with HIS Multiple Beings power and neither he nor his copies could copy others powers. He joined the SLJ and helped REALLY Bloster their ranks. He was A very 'Billy Numerous' kinda power... But as a good guy.

3) In the Third case... Well, I finally got sick and tired of Power rules Ret-Con and created a Mega BAD GUY shpaeshifter to throw at the players named MASSIK who was "Collecting" ever power in the book so as to create his OWN super mutant race and take over the Mega-verse! And Even then, the guy didn't actually start out with the Multiple-Beings power... He just realized that 'Aquiring' that power was sure allot faster way than tring to out-right genetically 'Clone' himself a race of Super Changlings.

...So Yeah...
Sounds cool, but as far as Gmae play-ability goes, it's ONLY cool as long as it doesn't Kill a game... Which in the Above three cases it didn't, it just added some spice to the game.

Nope, that is not what I "created" or suggested.
I did not have "mimic".
I had "Mirror Mastery".

I really bugs me to see the loophole of using mimic in order to have the clones make multiple
selves when the power states you can't make more duplicates. And how can you mimic yourself
when the clone is essentially the same as the original accept for making duplicates ? Its
logic that doesn't make sense accept to "manipulate the spirit of the rule" in order to justify
making untold numbers of duplicates. And here's something to consider, how can you make
more duplicates then you have P.E.? If a duplicate dies you lose 1 P.E. attribute point forever.
So if I take a machinegun and do a full melee spray and hose down 30 duplicatres, and your
P.E. is 20, I don't care if you have 200 or whatever duplicates, your dead. I know people are
big fans of a certain mutant from Marvel comics who makes untold numbers of himself, but
come on, let's stick to the spirit of the power and have one every two levels or one every
level of experiece, or take a mega power from Rifter #37 and get two a level.

This is why I don't allow this particular combo in any game I run. For every 10 people that would use it wisely and put it to good use, there will always be 1 person that stretches it in this way to give themselves a huge advantage. It's like they think they are playing against the GM and need to "win".

I never allow the combo, either. But, while I was aware of how bad it could be, I wasn't fully aware. Thats why I made this guy up, just to see how bad it really is. Now I know. Yikes.

The fact is, just like you, your clones have the ability to Copy Another bodies powers... AND because of the Newer rule that states that All of your power are (And this IS the big one that makes the Mimic+M-being trick work) Replaced, it simply mean that Yes, You are Still limited to the maximum copy limit, but your clones are Not using That power limit anymore, they are using the limits of the Mimicry power and what IT has to offer.

I understand where you are comming from, and even I at first thought as you did, BUT then I Redid the math and realized that the Mim+Mult combo is completely sound. See the deal is that you've got the same hang-ups/fixations that we all get in the begining regarding (A) the Cheat-O-Riffickness of the combo, (B) that whole you can't copy yourself rule, (C) The maximum copy limitation rule, and finally (D) The No clones can not make copies rule.
So let's adress them:


A)
YES, of course this combo appears to be Cheat-O-Riffic, but to be considered a True cheat, it would Have to be against the games rules and clearly it is not. And to further argue that the definition of Cheating is:

•To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.
This is the definition most assumed to be the basic meaning, and Is by Further definition:
"In role-playing games one of the most popular methods is using "trainer" programs, which usually greatly inflate player's stats/attributes." This last definition, created by roleplayers For roleplayers, implies (simply put) that 'You' (assumed cheater) beat 'I' (The offended one-who is often never even truly effected in the slightest by said cheaters action) to the punch in coming up with such a cool idea.

In short, cheating has been Re-written by roleplayers so as to imply "Anything that grants one an Un-fair advantage over other players or the gaming world"... Which A) Is the equivalent of Petty Jealousy, and B) Is a Crazy comment to base this off of because, By that Same exact definition, ANYONE who uses superpowers or guns or cars or advanced tech or magic or CHI martial-artist attacks or Normal martial artist attacks or Spirita-Anima or Giant mecha or body armor or Psychic powers in that same game where Normal humans (everyone for that matter) does Not have equal access to any and or all of the above, automatically defines Everyone here on the PB boards as cheaters...
By definition... Of course.
(IE, you have EE: Fire and you are taking on a normal unarmed human with a billy club at 30 ft range... You have the advantage and, by the above definition of cheating, which was invented by Unrealistic RP's, this clearly includes You into the above defintion. Meaning Everyone who has superpowers is an Automatic cheater cuz they are More powerful than Normal Un-augmented humans).


So... we move on a little to the Object lesson.
IF you consider this Combo to be a bad thing in your game, all you have to do is what the rest of us do and simply Not allow it, or allow it with restrictions, or Just allow it for few, True, RPers in your group to use... Like what i did.
PLUS, most all of my own gamers know of this combo and yet, despite many of them being Munchkins, I have had only had two of them (Both strict RPers) ever ask to play this combo. I didn't consider one guys idea "Good enough RPing", but the second guys idea Was quality so i let him fly with it.
So, there you have it... This combo has never cuased me trouble because I'm simply not gonna let Everyone Take such a rare combo when one considers how unlikely it would/should be for Two supers to Both have the same exact power combo... It is a Very rare combo, it (Like most other rare combos) should never come-up more than once or twice in a life time.
Period.

So A) has been discussed...
Moving on to B, C, & D.

B)
The "Your copy can't copy the original because they shair your life signature" rule:
This rule simply has Never existed anywhere in PB as the catch all rule for any such instance. It is, simply put, a made up rule that "Game Prosecutors" invented so as to justify their feeling of "What you just said/wrote/did made me feel uneasy, and "I" think it is illegal, or if it isn't, it Should be"...
FYI-A Game Prosecutor is the exact opposet of a Rules Lawyer. Where as a Rules Lawyer trys to fanagle every Lame And Logical reason in the Flufftext, Game rule system, and or Real world science for them to get away with obvious Murder by Twisting such consepts into Unrecognizable patterns, a Game Prosecutor will do that exact same thing in the Opposet direction so as to try and justify Restricting anyone and eveyones gaming experiance into fitting into Their limited frame of a gaming world (In other words..." RPG's are not about having fun, they are serious! No having fun!"). They are in short, the self appointed Police of the Gaming world, always trying to invent New rules so as to prevent "Cheating" or "Abuses", but very often (Just like real world police) they end-up taking things to far and endup becoming abusive themselves.
And (again Just like real world police) they often get it in their heads that Somehow they are the Avatars of their own personal god (Spelt L.A.W. instead of g.o.d.) and that They have an ever increasing right to start to Bend the rules in Their own favor... Very often becoming Just like a Rules Lawyer in that they twist meaning and definition of law to fit their own needs.
In the end One is a show off and goof off, the Other is a Game Nazi, But one Claims to be helping by bring about order for a better game (and in the begining often do), but in the end they Both end up destroying the whole RPGing experiance... Just like Mr.Po Po when They are not kept in check by the people.

C)
The Maximum Copy limit
All players with the Multiple-Beings super power are limited to 1one or 2two copies maximum per level... This is the rule. It is a FACT!
But when every someone Mimicks/copies your power, Regardless of whether or not the target of a power duplication has or has Not used their power to the maximum, the Mimicry power duplicates said power as though it was at Full capacity.
•So YOU the PC creates your maximum of four clones/duplicates at you level of 8...
•Guy X comes along and Copies your power.
•Looses ALL of his Other powers and attributes, and takes on all of Your (the PCs) instead.
•Guy X can now ALSO create 4 copies of Himself.
•Regardless of the fact that You the PC had all of your clones out at the time, Guy X can still create 4 copies.

That is Just how the power of Mimicry works... And THAT is also a Fact.
The simple fact is, that Guy X's clones can NOT create anymore clones because they are ALL copies of of a guy whos Mimicry power is Morphed into the PC's abilities, so they are stuck with the limits of the power of Multiple-Beings, meaning that all clones made are made.
BUT, if you combine the total number of clones on the feild, there are now 4 from the PC and 4 from Guy X... For a total of 8 clones when the rules say "No more than 4 at this time"... Why, because the rules IS being followed. The PC has created no more than 4 copies, and Guy X has created no more than 4 copies as well. The rules are followed and neither one broke the rule.
The Maximum rule was VERY specific in saying "The rule ONLY applies to the CREATOR of the clones"...
As his clones had Another, Differant rule apllied to Them as well. So No rules are broken here Either.

D)
Clones can NOT make copies.
This rule simply can not be broken. When Clones are created they are INCABABLE of directly using The SAME "Multiple-Beings" ability as their master that was used to create them...
THEY ARE STERILE!!!
Plain and simply...
they can NOT use that power.
BUT, Because of how the Mimicry power works, when the Clones use it, they loose All of their abilitys AND flaws and become near Bio-logical Copies of the Target at said targets Peek!!! Say what you will, say what you want about Both the Target And the Clones sharing a similar life signature, that rules restriction is Not written in either of the power nor Anywhere in the books. Clone Can copy the original games legal! And since they are NOT using the impotent version of the 'Multiple-Beings' power which is Locked away inside them to make the clones of themselves, but rather they are replacing much of themselves with a freash and Fully functional NEWLY working version of the Multiple-Bings supwer power, they in fact CAN create their Own copies which are now Unrelated versions of themselves.
Additionally:
Any clones using this power Via the Weaker Mass clone ability (The version of multiple Beings that lets you create one clone per level, instead of one clone per every Other level rule) has Copied the Original power level of their master creator at Full power... Which means that if the master was at level 4 and created 4 copies, they would all be at level 3 in power... BUT due to the Copies Mimicking their master, and although the clone was at level 3 in power a moment ago, they are Now bumped up to Level 4 power just like their master.


NOW THAT THAT HAS ALL BEEN SAID
This combo goes against the SPIRIT and logically assumed intent of what Kevin had wanted and, Clearly he would have Ixnay'ed this combo when he first created the powers had he realized at the time what it/they could do when put together... BUT, he hasn't becuase he figures that it upto YOU the Players, and YOU the GM/ST's to Not use this combo unless you're intent on powergaming OR you feel that you (as a responsible Play or GM that it will NOT disrupt the game.

But Still, we can all tell when someone wishes to be abusive with ANY POWER(S), and it is upto the GM to realize this fact ahead of time. LUCKILY with This age old Combo, we ARE Fairly warned... Unlike Other combos which do the Real damage becuase we ARE NOT ready for them... Those are Far more dangerious than the Mim+Mult combo for Just that reason.
But YES, this IS a game breaking power and therefore the GM/ST MUST Keep this combo in check.

Here is an interesting way of "legally [per HU2]" of doing this...
Multiple Selves [HU2, corebook]
Borrow Power [PU1, page 64]
and you can toss in Mimic if you really want although, I liked the idea of using "Absorb Bio-Bass"

Use the borrow power against the original to gain the ability to make multiples.

yawn, been done before by someone else.

steeler>The multiple selves power says that the clones have ALL the powers of the original except the multiple self power. this allows the clones to use the other powers NMI listed.