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That's right the demon fleet from dimensional outbreak. Pros cons wins, Losses, and general insanity. Have at it.

Mechanoids becuase...

1. More experience with space battles and tactics.
2. Superior numbers
3. Demons are likely to not have a very cohesive chain of command so they're less organized than the Mechanoids.
4. Mechanoids eat planets for power so at some point Kormal would be running with his demon tail between his proverbial legs.

Carl

Guess it can't get more official then that. way to kill a potentially heated Thread.

While the Mechanoids have far superior experience in space battles, the Demon forces have some heavy firepower (the demon fleets, Cormal itself & it's two demon-planet offspring; Demon Knights; minions & Demon Magic), not to mention I think that some of the Oracles would go mad upon trying to scan/assence what Cormal is (I'd have to dig out my Mechanoids Trilogy and Rifts Mechanoids books, but they are put away for now).
The Mechanoids' insanity would pale in comparisson to the Horror Factor that Cormal practically broadcasts. Thier twisted logic would fail miserably.

Gotta give this one to the Demon forces.

Official, Nope more my P.O.V. Besides BookWyrm presented a totally logical counter which now has me reconsidering

Let the heated battle continue

Carl

Wow, this one is a tough question. The Mechanoids never quite stay down no matter how many times they've been beaten. They adapt well and are certainly technologically advanced. However, the Demon Fleet is just plain tough. They use magic, psionics, and tech. In the end, I too will have to give the nod to the Demons. They're finally blending all sides of the equation AND their prolific use of magic might be a bit more than the Mechanoids are prepared to handle.

Hmm, maybe I picked the wrong side!!

And I wrote about the demon fleets!!!

The question may never be answered until mechanoid space is released.

How big is this Demon Fleet anyway? Because y'know, the Mechanoids sorta see "conquer this galaxy over here" as short to mid-term tactical objectives, so I'm kinda rooting with them on this one.

Uhm, dare I say this...
I agree with Rallan on this.
Mechanoids have the numbers, space battle experience, super technology, experience in using that technology, ships that can "core" planets.
More importantly.... they got loyalty to each other and the society.
Demons will turn tail and run or leave a fallen behind if it is to save its own skin.

Mechanoids: numbers, insane fanatacism, intelligence gathering awesome psionics (yes I am not very impartial), adaptable, it is hard to fight when the planet you are sitting on is getting sliced up, awesome space fighting capabilities (now that you have no plantet to stand on), plus, I believe the demon planet does not like it's situation and being psionic, the Mechanoids could possibly end up finding out and help free a fellow non-humanoid.

Demons: have some ability to shift forces better (though again, that usually depends on having a planet to rift to), unusual and unknown abilities (aka magics).

Really, the initial advantage might be to the demons, but the Mechanoids will close that gap and end up being far more dangerous as they could end up with knowledge of magic (though we have a theory that only AbM's can learn it). Also, demon loyalty is poor at best, non-humanoid demons might be persuaded to turn sides.

The X-Factor would be the ones in the middle, mortals.

I think you are right on that, BUT the normal mechanoid runners have a mention that they will likely research magic, with an eye toward techno-wizardy. Even if they don't practice magic, if a non-magic nation like the CS can come up with tech-based anti-magic measures...imagine what the mechanoids can do.

I think if anything could take on a Mechanoid mothership it would be Cormal. But I don't have enough info on one to actually vote yet.

No, the initial advantage would not be to the demons. Did you miss the bit where Mechanoids plan their expansion by invading entire galaxies at a time? Where nobody apart from the Mechanoids actually knows how many galaxies they've conquered so far? Sheer numbers alone makes them several orders of magnitude nastier than this Demon Fleet thing, and it wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of beating the Mechanoids.

About the only thing the demons have got going for them is dimensional travel, and the only real tactical advantage they'll be able to get from it is the fact that after they get their asses handed to them on a platter, the survivors will be able to retreat to places that the Mechanoids can't follow them to.

I don't think you are giving the demons enough credit. yes the mechanoids will know of their rough and major abilities, but some of these (like the ability to hop dimensions) will still cause them problems. Surely the mechanoids will come out on top in the end, but only after quite a bit of adaptation to the chaos the demons are capable of.

This would make a great game setting though. A galaxy ruled by demons is invaded by the mechanoids, with humanoids of all stripes caught in the middle. This poses some great situations for play...dammit. I have too many ideas for campaigns already.

Demonic tricksiness would only be a serious problem at a local level though, and one that could be sidestepped almost entirely if the Mechanoids just get lazy and use fleet battles and planet-busting as their main tools of conquest. An awful lot of the powers that various demon races have just aren't any use against an enemy which never compromises, can never be tempted away from its main initiative, and where all members are in psychic communion with one another. The demons are gonna be pretty much stuck with no options but a standup fight, which will end in them getting hammered. If they were a vast universe-conquering hordes with similar numbes to the mechanoids then they'd have a chance (their ability to establish untouchable bases in other dimensions and travel anywhere via the use of Rifts would be absolutely deadly), but as they are at the moment the entire war will end up being filed away in a mechanoid memory bank as "resistance in Sector Whatever was unusual, timetable was slightly delayed".



You'd need a schtick to make the setting even remotely survivable. Maybe have the demonic overlords dependent on the "lesser" races for most of the technical maintenance and innovation, so that if the demons ever decide to bail out or the humans decide to go it alone, they'll still have a fighting chance.

Not necessarily at a local level entirely and like I said, the mechanoids are more than capable of adapting to it. I was just saying that it will simply cause more problems than you seem to think it will.

I'm with you. "Regular" Demon Planets would make the Mechanoids quite loopy(as they are almost universally-psionic, except for mock-men).

What would make Mechanoids immune to mind-warping, soul-twisting magic? Who has more experience than demons at corrupting mental strength? Corrupting, of course, is a bit of an overstatement: the Mechanoids are already insane and evil, just a different kind of insane and evil than the demons. And the Mechanoids aren't robots, or deities; they're mortal beings that just happen to reside in metal shells. Is cultivating the souls of noble heroes really that much easier than the souls of utterly evilly insane mortals who don't have strong anti-magic? I think brute strength is a fool's errand vs. the full Mechanoids, but if you can subvert their minds, sap their will, or grip their souls...

Not easy, by any stretch, but its what demons do just as much as extermination is what Mechanoids do.

mechanoids don't just go to mechanoid school & get taught that they shoud be totes loyal to the cause. its in their dna and they can't not be totes loyal. usin wiggy mind control to make a mechanoid sell out on purpose woud be as hard as usin wiggy mind control to make a human commit suicide on purpose. ud have to be pretty suttle to do a mind control gambit that woud work

Very subtle, like using non-humanoid demons, show them destroying humanoid demons to "prove" the non-humanoid demons are (or can be) on the Mechanoids side. Do the "look at all these boons we can offer" bit. Happily help them rampage against poor mortal humanoid civilizations. Then, once they're in deep enough, use magic and any other means at their disposal to subvert the souls of the mortal beings beneath the metal mechanoid shells. Mechanoid psychosis is fed by betrayal, and the memory of betrayal, and boundless hate; who better than demons to feed into this for their own purposes? Maybe even go far enough to have a demon lord or three show a non-humanoid form and break out some deific power, get Mechanoids to "believe" in them as a personification of their rage at having been betrayed, a force for humanoid mortal extermination. No hurry; the Demon Lords are capable of planning along centuries or millenia if needed, especially for something as tasty as the Mechanoids as worshipers to boost their power.

Of course, that plan's not really any longer a direct confrontation between the Mechanoids and something like the demon fleet.

But I guess it boils down to which one you want to be more potent: DNA, or Soul. If DNA is programming on the consciousness and incapable of being fought, the Mechanoids are impervious (though...are they? Do they have massive bonuses to save vs. magic or charms and such?). If the soul of a mortal is the more potent determinator, twisting (let alone, you know, eating ) the soul is a handy Achilles-heel for something like the demons to exploit, since at the end of the day Mechanoids are still mortals.

u know the mechanoids are ALL psychic right? they all talk to each other with telepathy & oodles of them have empathy or can see auras or do master psychic mind-reading tricks. they are so totes gonna notice when their new 'friends' start corruptin mechanoids & givin them new goals & new bosses & loyalty to somethin that isnt the mechanoid cause.

so who cares about ur "DNA vs Soul" dilema? a mechanoids best defense against magical mind control & magical soul tainting is the ten zillion other mechanoids wholl all lose their **** and cut his brain open to find out who corrupted him.

You're assuming the Mechanoids would view it as "corruption".

An Oracle has already tampered with their DNA, and created the AbM Mechanoids as a result...

i'm assumin the mechanoids werent born yesterday. if those supernatural dudes are on the same side as us how come they gotta keep mindcontrolin as many of us as possible? somethin fishy goin on there

also, mechanoids are paranoid & crazy about racial purity. after the civil war with the Aberrant Mechanoids they redesigned the whole species to be more even more fanatical & conformist & to never trust deviations from the norm ever ever ever againski.

Demons don't need mind control to manipulate someone. Demon-manipulation wouldn't necessarily make mechanoids deviate from the benchmarks set forth by the Overlords, since most of what demons would want them to do isn't really any different from what they are already doing.

And some mechanoids WERE "born yesterday", even though they all have racial-memories. Manipulating the simpler mechanoids is easy.

problem is that the chump mechanoids have less free will & more rigid personalities & the dont gots the authority to make important decisions. if u try manipulatin a soldier or a worker ur gettin very little return on ur effort. if u try manipulatin lotsa them at once ur playin with fire coz the higher castes will order the smackdown as soon as they notice

You seem to think the demons would be trying to make the Mechanoids not be like the Mechanoids, the Mechanoids would notice this, and then turn on them. Why would demons do something like that? Cast some petty mind control at the first batch of low-levels they came across?

The Mechanoids ravage humanoids and use what they find to expand that they may do the same to the next sorry batch. I can't see the demons having a problem with that, particularly the non-humanoid ones. What a combined Demon Locust/Mechanoid horde could do probably doesn't bear mentioning. In other words, when I say they would get in good with the Mechanoids and provide boons, I mean they would actually go along with the Mechanoids and truly help them, all in. Show the Mechanoids they joyfully engage in utterly crushing poor fools who think they can resist and then perform unspeakable horrors on those poor fools. The beauty, of course, is that the demons don't have to fake anything, nor do they need the Mechanoids to act against their nature in any way!

Really, in the end, all the demons need to do is prove to the Mechanoids they're on their side...then, at some future point in time (years? decades? centuries? longer? Speaking of not being born yesterday, the Demon Lords haven't exactly just begun this whole "lets be really evil and powerful" thing), then get the Mechanoids to agree to kill a lot of mortals (which of course they're going to do anyway) in a certain way, or at a certain time, or in a certain place, or while chanting (with, literally, one mind) a certain phrase. Maybe do it on a small scale first, let the Mechanoids see there's nothing bad for them, but a world of hurt for the humanoids. Do it again. Do it as many times until the Mechanoids are on board. Then make it bigger, and badder, and now the PPE blind Mechanoids are funneling the death-PPE of civilizations, of worlds, of galaxies, to the demons...and there's no drawback for the Mechanoids at all. No negative from their side of it. They're now casually perpetrating monumental rituals which have no negative effect on them, but channel incalculable power to the demons letting them glut on galaxies worth of PPE.

That's it. "Hey, do exactly what you're going to do anyway, but say these words while you do it, and we'll keep giving you all the help we can. Really. We mean it, we really want to help you kill more humanoids." And they really do.


Once the Mechanoids are performing rituals for the demons worth billions or more in PPE at a time on a regular basis, I don't think even Overlords are going to be able to top what a Demon Lord could pull using Deific power. Or they go the safe route, and just leave the Mechanoids alone, keep helping them...they are, after all, the geese laying the golden eggs. The Demon Lords just take the PPE/souls, and march into godhood to then go after age-old enemies. Or they could take a bit more risk, and one day the ritual the Mechanoids mindlessly chant in perfect unison binds their souls to the Demon Lords (what do the Mechanoids know about bindings using one's True Name?)...and still, the Demon Lords can just let them go on their merry way, because now both those the Mechanoids kill and the Mechanoids who die are feeding them. Or they go ahead and grab them by the True Name and compel with a spell that cost a few measly million PPE (out of the billions they're being fed). There's alot of options at that point.

Either way...its a bad day to be on the side of Light, but the Mechanoids don't even need to have changed in any significant way whatsoever. They're just more...chanty.

Welllllll, the Demons have mastered the ability of rifting. This gives the Demon Fleet a humongous initial advantage. The demons also have a variety of tricks up their sulfurous sleeves that the Mechanoids have possibly never encountered before this fight. The Demons will come out on top in the early rounds.

After that, the ingenuity of the Mechanoids should not be underestimated. Mechanoids can recoup their loses surprisingly fast through cloning and mass production. Then it is a matter of creative problem solving to adapt to new problems. The Mechanoids are brilliant. An average Oracle is thinking on a level that I can not even comprehend.

Unless the Demon Fleet finds a way to land an early killing blow and take out every Mechanoid everywhere in the Megaverse at the same time (not happenin'), the Mechs will rally and finish strong.

I give this to the mechanoids. If for no other reason (and there are many), they just have the superior numbers. Billions upon billions compared to millions. Just the war of attrition gives this to the mechanoids.

Not too mention that the deevils would make sure to make sure that if the demons were to somehow, someway get any sort of short term advantage, the deevils would ruin that for the demons. Heck the mechanoids are just what the deevils need to finish off the demons all together.

Except the mechanoids would turn on the deevils just as quickly as they would the demons...

That is true that the mechanoids would turn on the deevils. BUT the major advantage that deevils is that they are sneaky and operate mostly behind the scenes. They would be smart enough to just stay out of the mechanoids way, but use shapeshifting powers and the like to lead them the right way or to give them some helpfull info. Not too mention if the demons start something effective, then the deevils will be there to just sabotage it.

THe main idea is that the deevils operate behind the scenes. They would be literally be the "monkeywrench in the machine".

In all honesty, it could go either way....

it coud go the way of the demons losin or it coud go the way of the demons losin in less than an hour

I dont know if the Mechanoids would need to saving throw against Cormal as there one of the few races that face the psychic of death from billions so there psionic's would be accustom to psionic and PPE back lash from from all the death Or they have some form psionic technology that shields them. Plus they have faced many many life forms from all over the megaverse after they have battled gods on some of the worlds.

I don't know who would win to be honest but it be a tough fight with heavy loses on both sides Id think it might even be a stand off since both sides wouldn't bring all there resourses into one battle I think it would one that would be fought time and time again all over the megaverse when they encounter eachother. True the mechaniolds do not know how to utilize magic .... yet but I can image they would in time if they spend enough time and resources studying it. Id image them if they did come with some form of bio-genetic techno wizardry

well we know the mechanoids wont bring all their resources coz they wont have to. they got an empire spannin hundreds of galaxies so they coudnt throw everything into the fight even if they wanted to coz half of it woud take a jillion years to get there from the ther side of the universe

Well the mechanoid trilogy (I think) says they bring the PLANET sized mother ships near a planet and disgourge billions of mechs from it and they rip the planet to shreds as the mothership sliced and dices up the world. Well cormal may have millions of mdc. But its not fully sentient and it has weak points just as the book says, book even mentions ways to disable parts of the planet. so even if these billions of mechs only do 1 mdc point of damae per mlele attack each individually, and lets say they have 4 attacks per melle that would be (for a billion mechs) 4 billion damage to cormal in one melee round. Hrmmm goodby Cormal in what 15 seconds at most.

That is for just one mothership. I would dare say they have a couple other motherships at least. This is one short war, magic or no magic.

The ships are more the size of North America, the motherships anyway. They also have thousands of smaller cruisers for each of those motherships and hundreds of millions of mechanoids per mothership with the ability to easily make more.

Also, given some of the source material given in the trilogy, I'd find it safe to say that a civilization that can turn their home star system into a giant metal disc has more that one such mothership.

It depends if the fight took place before or after the events of Homeworld. If the Mechanoids only have their 12 mother ships and the scattered forces beyond, then its an even fight against the demon fleet when you consider trickiness, magic and rifting.

Pre-Homeworld the demons don't stand a chance. There were just too many of them.

I vote Mechanoids but it would be a galaxy destroying battle of the Ages

For the demons it might be a galaxy-destroying battle of the ages. But for the Mechanoids? It was tueday.

If you're gonna use a quote like that, you could at least spell Tuesday correctly...

Interesting thread; just finished reading it.

I'm going to have to go with the Demons simply because they have magic and the Mechanoldsmobiles do not. I think magic beats tech any day, hands down.

A lot of people mentioned the Mechanoids vast numbers, but don't forget that they are essentially hive creatures. Take out the motherships and all those planetside suddenly lose their entire command structure. Maybe there's an Oracle or Overlord who could hold things together for a while, but if the orbiting mothership is destroyed, what's the point?

A high-level demon strike team, using dimensional/teleport magic, Invisibility Superior, Wall of Not, Anhilate, Negate Mechanics, and such could easily penetrate and destroy a Mothership from the inside.

And here's a spell to screw with the Mechanoids: Sanctuary. If you drop out of Invisibility Superior with a Sanctuary spell up, you could immobilize practically the entire ship. The Mechanoids could not stop themselves from attacking you, and then getting knocked out for several hours. Then just plant a few fusion bombs or cast a few Annhiliates in the right places, dimensional teleport out, and that's all she wrote!

Also, Space Magic can do some pretty devestating things to giant fleets of ships. If you opened up a Ley Line Storm on a spacial ley line right through the middle of their ships, you could do all kinds of damage. Or if you summoned 50 Ion Storms. Or if you let the poor chaps chase you into a wormhole and then colapsed it on them, or re-routed it into the center of a star. Etc, etc, etc.

The Mechanoids don't have a chance against the demons. They're sitting ducks.

I went with the demons in this because, The demons superior tactics would win the day in the end. In a straight up man for man brawl sure the mechanoids would win but, thats not how demons would fight a swarm type enemy. Treachery, stealth, magic combined put my vote for the demons. I would like to see a Mechanoid invasion of Cormal though, that sounds like a great battle.

That might be the best way to do it... but it's still not great.



Sanctuary has a radius of 50' per level.
Mechanoid motherships are bigger than that.

The major super ability of Electronic Cloaking. Yup total invisibility to Mechanoids, all the time.

Actually, some of them might use normal vision.
If not, many of them still have psychic senses.

It'd still be pretty handy, though.

Does the demon fleet have super powers?

Depends on if you'd allow them to have access to the stuff in ArmU or not.

Counterpoint: the Mechanoids have been spreading exponentially across their home dimension for so long that they can just rock up to a random galaxy, pick a fight with every humanoid race in it at the same time, and win so hard that they barely break a sweat. All the allegedly superior tactics in the world aren't going to help the demon fleet win against a genocidal empire that controls a significant portion of an entire universe.

This question doesn't even merit serious consideration. The Mechanoids would curbstomp any demon fleet. The only saving grace for the demons is that access to dimensional magic means they can flee beyond the reach of the Mechanoids.

EDIT: Actually going back and reading the thread, it appears that others have already done a nice job of pointing out why this would be the outcome.