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 Post subject: Traps
Unread postPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 9:25 pm
  

D-Bee

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I have a hunter going after my Mutant Animal Players. I want to trap one in a pit. If I make my roll shouldn't my player's Animal get trapped? It's a pit so I am only doing this to slow the Animal down. How do i do this fair? How would you guys/gals handle this?


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Unread postPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 9:37 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

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Well, if it's a plot point, I'd give the player the illusion of a roll, and trap them regardless. If it's not vital to the plot that the player is trapped, then just give them an honest roll.

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Unread postPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 9:47 pm
  

D-Bee

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That sounds good, but my question is, if the hunter has succeeded in his making the trap, what would be an honest roll for the Animal? How would he detect it?


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Unread postPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 10:01 pm
  

Adventurer

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Perception to notice something is funny. (The better the hunter's roll the harder the check.)

If they have Detect Traps as a skill use that if they search for traps regardless of any perception check.

If they don't have detect traps have them roll perception. (For a possible total of 2 perception checks)

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Unread postPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 2:09 am
  

D-Bee

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But what do you base Perception off of. This is TMNT and My Hunter can Trap and Snare Animals at 74% and He rolled a 23%. How would that effect my Player's Mutant Animals Perception?


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Unread postPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 2:11 am
  

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I'd make it a hard check. Somewhere around 14 to 16.

Maybe 12 to notice something is wrong and 16 to actually locate the trap.

Split up into two seperate checks.

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Unread postPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 2:13 am
  

D-Bee

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With a 20 sided die.


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 2:16 am
  

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Palladin

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homeskillet wrote:
But what do you base Perception off of. This is TMNT and My Hunter can Trap and Snare Animals at 74% and He rolled a 23%. How would that effect my Player's Mutant Animals Perception?


tough one. I'd say that's for ANIMAL level IQs not necessarily for Mutant Animals with human range IQs. YMMV. Size is another issue. Setting a trap for a 2 lb rat is different than one for a 180 lb mutant chimp.

does the Mutant Animal (MA) have any Sixth Sense ?
Detect Ambush skill ?
Detect Concealment ?
Does he know how to set traps ?

does he know he's being hunted ? -- this one has the potential to make him very wary....meaning bonuses on his other Detect skills (if any). if you know you're being hunted, then you tend to be on the lookout.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 2:36 am
  

D-Bee

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gadrin wrote:
homeskillet wrote:
But what do you base Perception off of. This is TMNT and My Hunter can Trap and Snare Animals at 74% and He rolled a 23%. How would that effect my Player's Mutant Animals Perception?


tough one. I'd say that's for ANIMAL level IQs not necessarily for Mutant Animals with human range IQs. YMMV. Size is another issue. Setting a trap for a 2 lb rat is different than one for a 180 lb mutant chimp.

does the Mutant Animal (MA) have any Sixth Sense ? NO
Detect Ambush skill ? YES
Detect Concealment ? NO
Does he know how to set traps ? NO

does he know he's being hunted ? -- this one has the potential to make him very wary....meaning bonuses on his other Detect skills (if any). if you know you're being hunted, then you tend to be on the lookout. I have been dropping hints that he feels he is being watched, but there is no one out there, every time he looks( due to the Hunter's Prowl). The MA is parnoid right now, but he is going to wake up from a night's rest with an impulse to get some where fasdt and may totally disregard the feeling, since it only occurs at night. The Hunter has observed the MA using the same route to someplace for a few nights and has decided to set up a pit along that route. This Hunter is a variation of the Heroes Unlimited Hunter, so he is hunting these Ma's out of hate for them. I want to set this trap to use as a story hook to let the MA know that there is something to this feeling and slow him down a bit. It is mainly a way to spark his temper a little, so when he meets the Hunter he is ready for a fight. I also want him to mistake( at first) the other PC to be the Hunter and want to fight him too.


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 1:56 pm
  

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Hero

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Sounds like you're trying to get pretty devious there, homeskillet. My best advice would be to go with Rory's idea's. The perception check is a good way to go, but since you say the MA can detect ambushes, then that would be logical too. Especially since most adventurers with any kind of experience behind them don't travel anywhere without scouting for traps and ambushes and the like. 8)

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 9:39 pm
  

D-Bee

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If I go with the Detect Ambush would you let the Player make the decision to actively look for ambushes and if he doesn't does he fall or should I just prompt a roll and see what he gets? How do I factor in the Hunter's roll?


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 9:50 pm
  

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If I recall correctly "Detect Ambush" doesn't detect ambushes, it detects locations that would make good locations to ambush someone.

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Unread postPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 10:05 pm
  

D-Bee

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So I should have him roll a d20 to see if he spots it?


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 10:10 pm
  

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That would be my suggestion.

A easier perception check to identify *something* being amiss. Like 12 to 14.

A harder perception check on a SPECIFIC search for traps at 14 to 16.

Skills like Detect Camoflague might be applicable directly, or give a perception bonus on a successful check in this case.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 10:20 pm
  

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CaptRory wrote:
If I recall correctly "Detect Ambush" doesn't detect ambushes, it detects locations that would make good locations to ambush someone.


right, as in "Hmmm, a good place for a trap too."

the idea isn't to follow the letter of the rules, but to see if the PC has what it takes to overcome them.

if that's not what you want, then as someone else already suggest just "fake roll" and YOU'RE TRAPPED, mwahahahaha!

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 10:36 pm
  

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Well, not quite. There are specific skills governing Traps and Mines. Ambushes are different and just because a location is good for an ambush doesn't mean it is good for a Trap.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 11:29 pm
  

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CaptRory wrote:
Well, not quite. There are specific skills governing Traps and Mines. Ambushes are different and just because a location is good for an ambush doesn't mean it is good for a Trap.


then I guess you didn't read what I typed.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 12:00 am
  

D-Bee

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Faking it I can do. I was just trying to think of a way to make it legit. I am thinking I will try the d20 roll and give it a 12-15 chance depending on how he describes his activities. I am gaming at a post by post level on board like this one so he has a chance to really work it with his words, but I expect him to just run right into it. Would you like me to let you all know how it goes down?


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 1:31 am
  

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Please do inform us.

And I did read your entire post, I only saw fit to reply to the first line gadrin.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 10:20 am
  

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If you really want him to get trapped, you can have him "detect" and locate a "trap" that wasn't properly concealed. When he sidesteps it, then you have him fall into the real trap, which is expertly concealed.

:) GM-1, MA-0

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Unread postPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 12:03 pm
  

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Detect Concealment is what you need to locate traps isn't it??

So a player with Sixth Sense(once withing 90 ft) would always sense the trap? but not necessarily still find it? correct???

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 12:31 pm
  

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Detect Concealment, I believe, is used to find small concealed items like something hidden on someone's person.

Trap and Mine Detection would be the textbook skill.

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Unread postPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 12:50 pm
  

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I'm pretty sure detect comcealment is used to find concealed things, not neccessarily on a person. I think there's also a sub-skill for locating secret compartments, IIRC.

In my opinion, there are at least three skills that overlap to cover this scenario:

Detect Traps
Detect Concealment
Detect Ambush

Tracking might also give a clue, if there is a mysterious pile of leaves, or if something is overturned, wet in the wrong place, twigs broken, etc.

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Unread postPosted: Sat May 19, 2007 6:18 pm
  

Explorer

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Comment: Master of Dirk Diggler Style
Perception does not apply to this case, and perception is a huge crutch in cases like this for people who don't want to use skills, or downplay the importance in using perception based skills.. The only skill that would apply would be Detect Traps. Sixth sense would warn of danger that's it. It doesn't provide specifics. So the character would be alarmed (if he wasn't already) and may stop but he gets no other information. Now his sixth sense would kick in once he began falling in the trap and possibly dodge might come into play (although i doubt it, unless it had spikes at the bottom then it definitely would, but not to dodge the trap altogether)

If you do a perception check it should be against the IQ roll on a d100 not a d20 because it should be very hard for an untrained character to detect anything. A d20 gives a 5% chance of success for every +1 rolled. Translated a so called "hard roll" of 16 would mean the character has detect ambush at 20%" That is NOT how it works.

The character who built the traps at 74% just means in my mind that he successfully constructed the trap so that most people in most circumstances would not detect it. A trained character might. Even an untrained character might if he was perceptive and lucky enough. Perceptive and lucky meand if he rolls a d100 against an IQ of for example 10 and somehow rolls under it he seriously lucked out and either detected it completely or saw enough to give him pause and another roll may be in order (that he most likely won't have success with).

A player who is trained in detecting traps would roll his base skill in detecting the trap. Now you can GM modifiers to the roll based on how difficult the trap is to detect, but these would be completely GM based decisions, his 74% does not factor in to how good the trap is, unless you want it to;palladium is a pass/fail system not a A-F system. The 74% is effectively meaningless once success is achieved: the 74% doesn't translate into quality of the trap just functionality meaning a person who has it at 34 and succeeds has made a trap as just as good as the person with 74%)

If you do want to factor in modifiers to detect you certainly can make that GM call. A -15 to detect for example would prevent virtually all straight perception checks from success (save people with IQs over 15).

This case it is not a versus scenario. The hunter is rolling for successful trap construction and possibly concealment (which may or may not be a seperate skill roll) to the casual passerby. The player is rolling against his detect trap skill.

Again to reitierate a 14 roll on a d20 against perception roughly translates into giving the player a 30% skill level ability. For most of the skills in rifts and palladium it makes taking perception based skills such as identify secret doors and compartments detect concealment detect ambush intelligence and a number of others completely useless since they have such low based percentages to begin with.

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Unread postPosted: Sat May 19, 2007 7:54 pm
  

D-Bee

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Ok the issue I see is useing a trap animals skill, wich in the RUE states that tracking humans is done at half the percentage. It also states that disarming traps made for humanoids is done at half the percentage.

As has been stated the only skill that will let him find the trap is "trap and mine detection".

If the trap is set in an area the the victum is very familiar with then a perception test might notice that some thing is not right, but won't tell them what is wrong. However if the trapper used the camoflage skill on the area then a perception test shouldn't be allowed.

The best bet for the player to have a chance is if he has an accute sence of smell. If he dose then a perception test could tell them that a stranger of some type has been in the area.

From what was stated earlier the hunter rolled well under half his trapping check. So the trap is set. If the hunter passes a camoflage test then it is hidden from even intellegent eyes. At that point if the hunters scent is not detectable for some reason then feel justified in not giveing the player a roll unless the take the time to search for traps useing "trap and mine detection" which in RUE is a military skill, or some other detect traps skill.


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Unread postPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 4:14 am
  

D-Bee

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Sorry I haven't been on lately to give you all updates. This has been a slow week in posting. The mutie has just woke up and scared some neckers near his log. Depending on where he goes from there, he is trapped. For Gudinoff and GA, the mutie has neither Find Traps or Enhanced Senses. Would you say he automatically failed or how would you give him a chance to detect my pitt? Remember, I am using this to get him all fired up to trip him up later in making a lot of bad choices. So how would you 2 work this one?


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Unread postPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 12:51 pm
  

D-Bee

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standard palladium rule is that one can make a skill check with the IQ being used as a percentage. The tricky bit is that the subject needs to state in some way that they are trying to find something. If they do not state that they are being extra careful then there is no reason to expect that they will spend several minutes searching evey spot before the step there. So if the player dosen't say any thing first then no they don't get a roll.

I might rule differently if this was a death trap, just because no one likes dieing with no chance of evasion. Maybe the romantic couple would have fallen in instead. :twisted:


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Unread postPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 2:49 pm
  

D-Bee

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Location: California
Unfortuanatly they ran the opposite direction and this is not a death trap. I literally want to frustrate off one of my players. Not because he did anything to deserve it, but I want him to know there is someone out for him and I want him to make the wrong conclusions later for a little drama and in doing so the main problem will get away.


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Unread postPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 9:04 pm
  

Explorer

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Comment: Master of Dirk Diggler Style
Anytime a person doesn't have a skill in question you roll a d100 against the appropriate attribute. In this particular case I would use intelligence for perception...and it would have to be at least 2 rolls. One for him to detect something is off, and one for him to detect what that is. He would have to be very lucky to get both dice rolls.

Some say use ME on the IQ stat but that's from nightbane where I think it probably applies well due to the subject matter but i just do straight IQ perception rolls on PF and Rifts worlds.

For Charming someone with no seduction skill you would use the PB stat against a d100. For intimidation you would roll a d100 against the MA stat. For perception a d100 skill against IQ. For something physical it would depend but usually the PP stat applies. For something like climbing when they don't have climbing you would roll a d100 against the PP stat.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 12:39 am
  

D-Bee

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Location: California
Sorry if I sound stupid, but when you say roll d100 against IQ, you mean if his IQ is 12, he has to roll 12 or less on a d100, right?


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Unread postPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 11:44 am
  

Adventurer

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homeskillet wrote:
Sorry if I sound stupid, but when you say roll d100 against IQ, you mean if his IQ is 12, he has to roll 12 or less on a d100, right?
yep, that's right.


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Unread postPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 6:35 pm
  

Explorer

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Comment: Master of Dirk Diggler Style
Yes. This makes taking those detection based skills worthwhile if you think about it. Otherwise why bother taking them if the GM is always using d20 perception rolls and they never or only partially come into play?

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 1:19 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 12:26 pm
Posts: 12
Location: California
Well, It was sort anti-climatic. After I gave his character the answer to all of his questions via an e-mail from a mysterious benefactor on his laptop. After that, he simply stated he was leaving to a spot he used to spy on the warehouse where everything was to be going down. Obviously he wasn't looking for a trap, let alone, being cautous by any means. So, his character fell in my trap. I had him roll for backflip( even though he isn't flipping around) to land harmlessly on his feet and he succeeded. He then busted out his rope and grappling and will be climbing out. It really wasn't much of an annoyance. I forgot how well equipped he was, which is stupid, because he more money than he can use, plus lots of equipment. I laughed at how easily he is getting out. I am having him roll his Climb rope and he is out. Maybe I can mess with his mind when he investigates the trap. Send him out on a wild goose chase if he follows any tracks, I don't know. Thank you all for your help. it made my decsion that more easier when dealing with these more specfic situations. I will definitely turn to this forum with any other game mechanics questions.


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