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 Post subject: Torture
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:42 pm
  

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Explorer

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Comment: Truth is subjective, which is the very reason I must rely on you to make the right choice.
-If a character knew something so powerful (Rune Magic, Power Words, Apocalypse Magic, ect.) could it be tortured out of them.

-Now the situation is this, my brother and I (both of us are highly skilled GM's and Players)One of our characters (scrupulous Alignment but interested in learning all mystic art regardless of orentaion) was given the chance to Apocalypse Magic, and has the want and ability. One of us thinks this would warrant a drop in alignment(because it could fall the the hands of others through torture or possibly other means)while the other disagrees

-Sorry to push our personal dilemma on the forums, but we don't want to hear its the GM's decision we are looking more along the lines of a yes or no or even some type of optional rules

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:01 pm
  

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Dungeon Crawler

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uhhh...apocalypse magic ??:eek:
what book is THAT out of??


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:20 pm
  

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I don't think giving it out under torture would warrant a drop in alignment. Teaching it to others knowing they'd use it for evil pruposes, now THAT I'd say would warrant a drop in alignment.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:21 pm
  

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Palladin

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According to the skill Interrogation Techniques:

This skill also includes some basic knowledge on methods of torture, from basic tactics like depriving the subject of sleep, to the use of "medieval" instruments, drugs and psionics. Note: Only evil characters will engage in actual torture.

YMMV

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:10 pm
  

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Yes, things can be tortured out of a person.

No, it doesn't make a person evil to know something bad that can be tortured out of them.

I'd say it's actually the application of certain arts, rather than the knowledge of them, that is where the evil lies. An academic understanding of mass murder doesn't make one a murderer. Putting that knowledge to use, however, does.

Glad to hear that you're interested in using Apocalypse Magic! That's one of my articles (Rifter 33) :-)

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 3:16 pm
  

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sawg138 wrote:
gadrin wrote:
According to the skill Interrogation Techniques:

This skill also includes some basic knowledge on methods of torture, from basic tactics like depriving the subject of sleep, to the use of "medieval" instruments, drugs and psionics. Note: Only evil characters will engage in actual torture.

YMMV

Yes, but this isn't about the skills needed to torture. :D


read the underlined part ...which seems to represent the official PB outlook on torture. it seems relevant to alignment...maybe you don't see it that way.

YMMV

basically: if the ends justifies the means, then yes, you're probably evil. In fact there's a section on this in CB1 in the Witch section, the Gift of Union, IIRC. That's the old CB1.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 3:36 pm
  

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I don't think it makes the character evil in any way.

Harry potter has to learn about the dark arts, but he's not evil.

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 Post subject: Re: Torture
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 3:37 pm
  

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Sosyourfacist

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Scrud wrote:

-Now the situation is this, my brother and I (both of us are highly skilled GM's and Players)


now before we can get to the answer for your question, what level are you as a player and GM, because this question should be easily answerable to a level 7 player/GM and above, even taking into account distraction penalties and playing while running(for GM/players). And remember being a 4th level player and 3rd level GM doesn't equal 7th, since your most likely human and humans use the dual-class rules, from ad&d.


:P

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:50 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

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dungeon masters dont have levels. :D


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:20 pm
  

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You're only evil if you don't apologize after torturing someone, but you have to be sincere about it :demon:

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:12 pm
  

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sawg138 wrote:
GreenGhost wrote:
You're only evil if you don't apologize after torturing someone, but you have to be sincere about it :demon:

Or a reach around.


no way man
:puke:

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:15 pm
  

My take on it is why has the character learned the knowledge. If it was a pure scholarly research bit, then no alignment change need apply. If it was to be used as a bargaining chip ("Oh, they'll give me what I want, or I'll cast a spell on their town") then alignment change would apply, regardless of whether it was actually used.

Concerning the risk of "torture", well, many high-level mages know some really, really nasty spells. Crimson Wall of Lictalon, Transformation, Ice Storm, Curse of Darkness, and Summon Vampires are just a few of the spells I wouldn't want to see a bad guy use against a village. However, there's nothing that says anyone who simply learns the spells are automatically evil.

And J Lionheart, after reading that Rifter article, the only thought that went through my mind is that you are one sick puppy (pun intended).


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:54 pm
  

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Natalya wrote:
And J Lionheart, after reading that Rifter article, the only thought that went through my mind is that you are one sick puppy (pun intended).


::wags his tail::

Haha. Seriously though, did I mention that I enjoy playing epic style games? Hopefully you enjoyed it, in between freak-out-ness :-P

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 Post subject: Re: Torture
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:56 pm
  

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Palladin

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Scrud wrote:

One of us thinks this would warrant a drop in alignment(because it could fall the the hands of others through torture or possibly other means)while the other disagrees



I see, you mean just the fact of having the knowledge, and that it could fall into the wrong hands.

well, I think 90% of the knowledge in the game probably falls under that rather broad heading.

Dunscon's people kidnapping mages from other parts of Rifts Earth to learn their magical secrets and vice-versa.

whether it'll ever happen or not, up to the GM. look at the modern day world and atomics/nuclear knowledge. there's always knowledge out there that could be dangerous.

why that would figure into alignment makes no sense...to me, unless you've disguised it in some further complicated mumbo-jumbo.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:04 pm
  

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Indeed. Alignment in PB is an absolute thing, and is based primarily on intentions. While the road to hell may be paved with them, you'll very rarely be in a situation where something will affect your alignment if your intention was genuinely good.

Now then, you might go insane from the trauma of facing the consequences of your well-intentioned but poorly-resulting actions, but you'll be a good insane, rather than an evil insane.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Tue May 01, 2007 11:18 am
  

J. Lionheart wrote:
Natalya wrote:
And J Lionheart, after reading that Rifter article, the only thought that went through my mind is that you are one sick puppy (pun intended).


::wags his tail::

Haha. Seriously though, did I mention that I enjoy playing epic style games? Hopefully you enjoyed it, in between freak-out-ness :-P


I did. :) I'm thinking they would be good for fitting into the history of a place in the game I'm running. But there's no way in the toasty place that I'm going to let one of the PCs get their hands on it.


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Tue May 01, 2007 1:25 pm
  

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Hero

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Comment: Fortune favors the bold.
sawg138 wrote:
GreenGhost wrote:
sawg138 wrote:
GreenGhost wrote:
You're only evil if you don't apologize after torturing someone, but you have to be sincere about it :demon:

Or a reach around.


no way man
:puke:

You were a grunt. I know you remember the Big Green Weenie.


The BGW is not restricted to grunts. Us POGs get it all the time as well.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Tue May 01, 2007 7:08 pm
  

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Natalya wrote:
I did. :) I'm thinking they would be good for fitting into the history of a place in the game I'm running. But there's no way in the toasty place that I'm going to let one of the PCs get their hands on it.


Haha, excellent. That's kinda what I had in mind when I wrote 'em.

When/if you use it that way, I'd love to hear the context you decide upon. Drop me a PM :-)

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 10:41 am
  

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sawg138 wrote:
GreenGhost wrote:
You're only evil if you don't apologize after torturing someone, but you have to be sincere about it :demon:

Or a reach around.


Ewww, now that is evil. Pealing off flesh victim screems, oh wait her you go, tug tug tug, then back to the pealing of flesh.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 7:10 pm
  

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J. Lionheart wrote:
Yes, things can be tortured out of a person.

No, it doesn't make a person evil to know something bad that can be tortured out of them.

I'd say it's actually the application of certain arts, rather than the knowledge of them, that is where the evil lies. An academic understanding of mass murder doesn't make one a murderer. Putting that knowledge to use, however, does.

Glad to hear that you're interested in using Apocalypse Magic! That's one of my articles (Rifter 33) :-)


All with Lionheart here, and Apocalypse Magic was the reason I bought that rifter.

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