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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 2:03 am
  

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D-Bee

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{Repost from the unofficial RRT Forums}

These threads always get a little crazy but hear me out.

First, RRT isn't just a wargame, it's also to provide models to the guys who play the RPG. There's a high probability that alot of those guys and girls might want to just buy them ready to play. Right now the models are definitely over engineered, for a veteran modeler like myself no issue but I cringe to think of how a new modeller might react. They're as complex as a much larger kit and they shouldn't be at that scale. No big deal, I can personally work around it but there is a slice of the population who might want these models ready to play and might pass on them once they see them in all their glory on those sprues!

Several games have been successful as prepaints so there's an obvious interest in it. I know so called "serious' hobbyers always disagree with the prepaint concept but I've always felt that it's easy enough to repaint prepaints so shouldn't be an issue. I wouldn't mind the idea of squad packs, a pack of models that makes the minimum needed to play, or even full units of mecha ready to play. I can repaint them later to my taste and I don't have to feel bad about playing them before I do.

I ultimately feel like the number of people who would refuse to buy prepaints are a lot less than those who will refuse to buy them because they have to assemble AND paint, especially because they are so complex.


Thoughts?

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:45 am
  

Wanderer

Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:26 am
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I think the option for both with the prepaints being much pricier would work and I might even buy a few but I don't like the idea of them being preassembled and painted I only. I enjoy posing and modifying(already am with some) and we enjoy custom paint jobs. I do agree that many rpg gamers and less miniature types would love this option and I may even utilize a unit or so.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:39 am
  

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D-Bee

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slaaneshgod, you've hit on the critical points I don't think are necessarily valid, against prepaints. Again, hear me out!

1 - it's going to take less time for most people to convert a pre-assembled miniature than it is to assemble one. A couple of cuts, some glue, maybe a little filler and you're done (especially considering the multiple tiny pieces the miniatures currently come in!)

2 - Custom paint jobs are a sinch on prepaints - consider them primed and ready for painting! I used to collect the Mechwarrior:Dark Age minis and I repainted hundreds of those, sometimes just painting over the stock paint and sometimes priming them and then painting. I never had any issues. In fact Dust Tactics for example provides their miniatures in flat colors that effectively acts as primer. Prepainted gets' you 3 different levels of accessibility. The first is for those who don't want to assemble or paint at all. The second is for those who want to just customize their paint jobs, maybe with some weathering, or adding a little more color and so on. Finally, for those who want to paint custom paint jobs, paint over the stock paint or strip and repaint.

The accessibility is where it really would come into play. XWing does well for a couple of reasons - it brings in people who just aren't into the hobby side of things but like, or don't care about painted minis. It allows hobbyists to repaint some of their minis for customization. The fact that you can pop it straight out of the box and start playing is huge. Imagine if you could just crack open your starter box of RRT, pull the minis out and start running through the quick start rules!

Keep in mind I'm a serious hobbyist. I love the hobby side and I'd most definitely convert and repaint RRT models but I can see the value in bringing in a wider audience. If we could have it both ways that would be awesome but it's generally cost prohibitive.

I think RRT is in that sweet spot for something like that. It's too late now obviously unless they decide to change the focus down the road.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 12:08 pm
  

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Wanderer

Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:57 am
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There is a good argument for prepaints. However to date they remain a departure from "traditional wargaming". I suspect the main issue was the additional cost that would be associated with producing pre-painted miniatures. I don't know how that process works but I suspect somewhere along the way a human being has to assemble the parts. This means a loss of detail as the pieces need to be far fewer in number and an increase cost as this is an additional step. To my knowledge there is probably a method to have a robot paint the miniatures, or to produce the parts with some kind of colored finish. Of course... you can also have a ten year old kid in China paint it for you for 20 cents an hour.

I do think the pre-painted miniatures have a market. Too many people in my opinion make no effort to paint there stuff for many reasons. Time is the biggest one I hear the most often. Still I think the additional cost was probably the deciding factor in the finial decision.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 1:07 pm
  

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i'm not going to argue for or against this one, since i can only put my opinions. but i will make a few points, based on those opinions/personal observations.

Pre-paints generally suck.. they are usually little better than slop-and-go's, with not very crisp lines and usually using paint that hopes to one day grow up and cover someone's living room wall.

pre-paints get expensive (due to the manpower needed), unless you skimp somewhere else. that usually means the material involved is a softer, more rubbery plastic. this means that the aforementioned repainting and reposing is a lot harder than it is made out.. softer plastics don't hold normal paint well without a lot of fancy prep, and they make reposing darn hard unless your highly experienced at it.

on a modelling note, there are many people who can get very interesting poses just by adjusting placement of a model kit's parts.. but to which cutting and reposing an existing figure is a near impossible task. these types of players actually seem to be the majority, in my experience. give them a multi-part kit (especially one with plenty of arm and leg pose options) and they'll come up with wonders. give them a one piece figure, and they'll either turn it into a mess.. or live with dozens of identical poses because they don't feel up to the task.

on a market related note, the only time prepaints have shown themselves to be cost effective is in self-contained boardgames.. or in collectable or semi-collectable wargames. both of which don't really apply well to RTT.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 3:20 pm
  

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Wanderer

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Thanks Glitterboy you made wonderful points. As I heard someone way a while back,

"Quality, Speed, Cost...Pick Two".


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:47 pm
  

Wanderer

Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:26 am
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I personally like assembly and get plenty of fun out of it in fact I enjoy it. I don't like chopping and destroying miniatures because I can't sculpt well enough for me to think it looks alright after that. I do think there could be s market for both but if it is only preassembled and prepainted I'll pass. I backed this for the modellijng aspect because I don't want to support gw anymore and I can say with perfect happiness that I got that. These miniatures are fun.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:50 pm
  

Wanderer

Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:26 am
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If it helps I tried dust when it started and didn't like it. The miniatures for the clix mechwarrior were atrocious. I like x-wing a lot but those are fighters so not as big a deal. It obscures models to add tons of paint and these already have enough tiny detail to make that a concern. P!ease understand I don't disagree with the option but if it had been the only option I wouldn't have put over a grand into the kick starter and I wouldn't be here now.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:55 pm
  

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D-Bee

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There's an impression that prepainted miniatures are somehow more expensive and this generally isn't the case. For example XWing miniatures run around 12-14$ for the standard fighter and are painted relatively well. Mechs at 1:285th don't occupy much more volume. MW:DA ran around 12$ a pop for a box of random miniatures.

However, the precedent has been set to address most of your concerns glitterboy - AT43. I still have a ton of miniatures from that game. Up until the last couple of waves the paint jobs were reasonable and they still remained fairly cheap. They ran around 20-25$ for 5-10 troop boxes, with larger minis costing 25-50$. It can be done, it just requires a company stay on top of their contractors.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:02 pm
  

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the point about cost wasn't about final cost.. it was total production cost. paying people to prepaint the figures means more employees and extra steps. which if all else is equal, would result in higher prices.

but since companies don't like doing that (higher prices mean fewer sales), they tend to cut costs elsewhere. as i said, this is usually by using a softer, lower quality plastic.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:15 pm
  

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D-Bee

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glitterboy, I get what you're saying, and true most people go to the cheaper plastic but again as a good reference AT43 used hard plastic. Certainly the price is higher if you add steps in manufacturing - creating molds and pouring plastic is definitely cheaper then doing those steps, then having people assemble and paint but I don't think it's that much more. That has to be balanced out with how much potential money you can make selling the product. If you bring in more customers (which is the premise I'm working on with prepaints) then you make up for those costs.

Of course it'd be ideal to get it both ways - prepainted for those who need it and still on the frame for we hobbyists but that's probably prohibitively expensive.

Some people who resist this idea say they love to hobby so much they can't stand the idea of prepaints or whatnot. Most gamers are constantly playing catch up with their hobby and I think occasionally, not having to worry about it would be nice. It was one of the attractions for me with Xwing and AT43. I didn't have to worry too much about the hobby side I could just pull it out of the box and play, and focus my hobby efforts on other stuff.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:36 am
  

Wanderer

Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:26 am
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Grabula wrote:
glitterboy, I get what you're saying, and true most people go to the cheaper plastic but again as a good reference AT43 used hard plastic. Certainly the price is higher if you add steps in manufacturing - creating molds and pouring plastic is definitely cheaper then doing those steps, then having people assemble and paint but I don't think it's that much more. That has to be balanced out with how much potential money you can make selling the product. If you bring in more customers (which is the premise I'm working on with prepaints) then you make up for those costs.

Of course it'd be ideal to get it both ways - prepainted for those who need it and still on the frame for we hobbyists but that's probably prohibitively expensive.

Some people who resist this idea say they love to hobby so much they can't stand the idea of prepaints or whatnot. Most gamers are constantly playing catch up with their hobby and I think occasionally, not having to worry about it would be nice. It was one of the attractions for me with Xwing and AT43. I didn't have to worry too much about the hobby side I could just pull it out of the box and play, and focus my hobby efforts on other stuff.


I must admit I do have quite the backlog of stuff in either to assemble or to paint groupings. Arcane legions did a painted and an unpainted both. It was like 15 for unpainted and 45 for painted. Considering our pricing now I imagine 110 would be about right for painted and assembled Valkyrie box since they are 37.95 on sprue. I figure that might be OK if the paint job was decent. I tried at-43 years ago I thought that one disappeared. Had some newt mecha ideas but didn't really like the miniatures. Again. I think both options would be nice but prepaints aren't always the thing look at d&d minis or pathfinder minis for how rpg minis work out. I think as is now with may be a premium preassembled and painted option and maybe the option to have magnetized as well. Pay for assembly extra pay for paint and assembly. Pay for assembly and magnets. Pay for all 3 could be something I might be willing to do a few of but !my majority would be best the way it is now.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:47 am
  

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D-Bee

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Yeah, AT43 died when Rackham did. Too bad too the miniatures were awesome. Great prices, and good quality.

If you're mass producing prepainted mechs and selling in packs to fit battlegroups I bet you could get them for under 40$

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:12 am
  

Wanderer

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Considering their current price I think the best we could hope for would be in the 70 range. I think 40 considering they are around 37 on sprue is a little unrealistic though. I must say grabula you have been fun to talk here thank you!

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:49 am
  

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D-Bee

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slaaneshgod wrote:
Considering their current price I think the best we could hope for would be in the 70 range. I think 40 considering they are around 37 on sprue is a little unrealistic though. I must say grabula you have been fun to talk here thank you!


haha thanks slaaneshgod. After seeing a couple of games do the prepainted collectible thing (AT43 and XWing), occasionally it occurs to me that's a good format for some games. You have to look at the crowd that might be interested and how the game is marketed. Robotech works for several reasons. First, it's a small scale so the models are small. Second, they're not just marketed to wargamers, in fact I suspect the primary goal was just to get them out there to support the RPG but writing some miniatures rules expands your market. Third there's a big collector's crowd out there who would more likely buy prepainted stuff as part of their collection.

I'm a hobbyist at heart but I'll sacrifice that if I think the game might appeal to a larger crowd and therefore gather more interest and become more successful.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:35 am
  

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Comment: Pirate Wisdom:
Rum is a journey, and a destination.
I am also a hobbiest and I get more satisfaction from putting an army on the table that I built and painted than just one I purchased.

Its cool to have prepaints, it makes it quick to start up and play. I prefer to put some effort in a mini war game so when I hit the table, people come around and comment on it. Thats why I love running games at cons, its the positive feedback I get for my terrain and minis that keep me playing.

I can be competitive, but its not the reason I play.

Again... Just my Nickle...inflation and all.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:53 pm
  

Wanderer

Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:26 am
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I hadnt thought of it but it probably is my exhibitionist side that makes me loving building them. Comments of how did you get that pose or what did you do that with make my day and I love explaining how I modeled it or what made me decide on the colours I did. Somehow I didn't realize that. Thank you phase for you candid insight.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 3:10 am
  

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Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 7:52 am
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This is the first wargame I've ever gotten into, but I have tons of modeling and painting experience from doing Gundam models. The amount of detailing they put into these models went overboard for their size, in my opinion. While they do look cool, once assembled, they are such a pain to get them out of the sprues, it's almost not worth the hassle to be delicate or particular. While the scale is fixed, I would much rather see them simplify these models such that certain things are a single piece, like the VF-1 heads and a lot of those antenna pieces for some of the other mecha. When it comes to future models, specifically the Cyclones, I'd much prefer that they do them as a single solid model, instead of dozens of little tiny pieces. Even with that, it is still possible to get decent details on models that small. Look at the mini Mobile Suits that came with MSIA starships from Gundam. Those little Gundams, GMs, and assorted others have accurate colors and great details for their size.

While prepainting can be labor intensive, I'd love to see them do something like System Injection, where the plastic comes molded in the appropriate colors. Then you can assemble them, and have color accurate models. Or if you want to go crazy, you can just paint over top of the colors.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 11:04 pm
  

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Comment: NEVER QUIT..... I got lucky
Grabula wrote:
slaaneshgod, you've hit on the critical points I don't think are necessarily valid, against prepaints. Again, hear me out!

1 - it's going to take less time for most people to convert a pre-assembled miniature than it is to assemble one. A couple of cuts, some glue, maybe a little filler and you're done (especially considering the multiple tiny pieces the miniatures currently come in!)

2 - Custom paint jobs are a sinch on prepaints - consider them primed and ready for painting! I used to collect the Mechwarrior:Dark Age minis and I repainted hundreds of those, sometimes just painting over the stock paint and sometimes priming them and then painting. I never had any issues. In fact Dust Tactics for example provides their miniatures in flat colors that effectively acts as primer. Prepainted gets' you 3 different levels of accessibility. The first is for those who don't want to assemble or paint at all. The second is for those who want to just customize their paint jobs, maybe with some weathering, or adding a little more color and so on. Finally, for those who want to paint custom paint jobs, paint over the stock paint or strip and repaint.

The accessibility is where it really would come into play. XWing does well for a couple of reasons - it brings in people who just aren't into the hobby side of things but like, or don't care about painted minis. It allows hobbyists to repaint some of their minis for customization. The fact that you can pop it straight out of the box and start playing is huge. Imagine if you could just crack open your starter box of RRT, pull the minis out and start running through the quick start rules!

Keep in mind I'm a serious hobbyist. I love the hobby side and I'd most definitely convert and repaint RRT models but I can see the value in bringing in a wider audience. If we could have it both ways that would be awesome but it's generally cost prohibitive.

I think RRT is in that sweet spot for something like that. It's too late now obviously unless they decide to change the focus down the road.

i am with U on this one man u hit on the nail

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:16 am
  

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I barely have enough time to play anymore, I have zero interest in having to paint before play, and even less interest in assembly before play.

Fantasy Flight Games, X-Wing, nuff said.













Well, unless you said Armada ;P

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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 6:00 pm
  

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Hero

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Comment: Three Galaxies Lemuria GM.
Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I'm very glad they're not pre-painted. The assembly has been very easy, and I like doing my own painting. I find it relaxing to sit in my back 'war room' away from the kids for a little and do some painting. :)

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:47 am
  

D-Bee

Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:07 am
Posts: 40
Comment: Yabba Dabba Doo
I enjoy building and painting models, playing miniature wargames and Robotech.
So, for me, this is a great product.

I wouldn't have been as happy with pre-paints. In fact, I probably wouldn't have bought them. The few pre-painted models I have bought tend to be poorly painted or average at best (requiring repainting), while also being assembled in an obviously quick manner that means the models still need to be cleaned up or fixed.

Having done this for decades, to me the hobby encompasses all the aspects of gaming, modeling and painting.


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