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 Post subject: Re: The EBSIS
Unread postPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 11:57 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
The other thing to remember about the EBSIS is that they weren't strictly villains and weren't the enemy per se.

Actually, they were. A random encounter table in book two had the possibility of an immediate attack, and even when they didn't, they still supported Zentradi holdouts, bandits, and secessionists generally.

Warshield73 wrote:
The RDF gave them a prototype submersible carrier...

The RDF sold them a prototype submersible carrier "[a]s part of a diplomatic overture"...which obviously failed due, presumably, to the Soviet's inherent treachery.
Warshield73 wrote:
...and they worked with them in Africa...

No, they worked against them in Africa, supporting anti-RDF governments.

Warshield73 wrote:
...and Asia.

I'm not familiar with this.

Warshield73 wrote:
My players got an EBSIS base to help them against a massive Zentraedi army.

O.K., but what does that have to do with the EBSIS as written?

* * *


Warshield73 wrote:
The problem is that the antagonists in Robotech aren't great for anything but combat. You can't interact with them outside of combat (during the war itself, after the war they just get absorbed into the human forces) so if you want some role play like using espionage and rogue skills.

Well, in the series itself there's quite a lot of non-combat interaction between the heroes and the aliens. I see the problem as being that most of the mysteries and problems in the series are solved in the end, which doesn't leave much for the PCs to do except sweep up footnotes.

Warshield73 wrote:
The same is true in Invid Invasion/New Generation where most of the role play is with humans and zentraedi while the invid are more of looming threat.

I personally see "The New Generation" as the most open, since the Invid are so loosely defined, it gives the GM a lot of room to develop them. (Speaking of which, has anyone noticed this? I think it looks really interesting.)


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 Post subject: Re: The EBSIS
Unread postPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 2:17 am
  

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ESalter wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
The other thing to remember about the EBSIS is that they weren't strictly villains and weren't the enemy per se.

Actually, they were. A random encounter table in book two had the possibility of an immediate attack, and even when they didn't, they still supported Zentradi holdouts, bandits, and secessionists generally.

Warshield73 wrote:
The RDF gave them a prototype submersible carrier...

The RDF sold them a prototype submersible carrier "[a]s part of a diplomatic overture"...which obviously failed due, presumably, to the Soviet's inherent treachery.
Warshield73 wrote:
...and they worked with them in Africa...

No, they worked against them in Africa, supporting anti-RDF governments.

Warshield73 wrote:
...and Asia.

I'm not familiar with this.

Warshield73 wrote:
My players got an EBSIS base to help them against a massive Zentraedi army.

O.K., but what does that have to do with the EBSIS as written?

I do not remember the EBSIS being this mustache twirling arch villain but to be fair I have not read these books in years. In my brief overview of the PDF's it still seems that they are more rivals than enemies but to me that is almost irrelevant. Most of what I have said stands as the EBSIS provides that chance for players to do actual roleplaying instead of just obliterating a bunch of battle pods.

ESalter wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
The problem is that the antagonists in Robotech aren't great for anything but combat. You can't interact with them outside of combat (during the war itself, after the war they just get absorbed into the human forces) so if you want some role play like using espionage and rogue skills.

Well, in the series itself there's quite a lot of non-combat interaction between the heroes and the aliens. I see the problem as being that most of the mysteries and problems in the series are solved in the end, which doesn't leave much for the PCs to do except sweep up footnotes.

Yes you understand. There is a similar problem in RPGs for lots of media including Star Wars. You can't blow up the Death Star, that is Luke's job. You can't destroy the Shield generator that's for Han and Leia. Robotech is actually more limiting because it is a much smaller stage than a galaxy far far away.

While your human PCs can interact with some micronized Zentraedi all the mysteries are really laid out in the media. EBSIS, warlords, and other antagonists allow for more mystery and conflict.

ESalter wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
The same is true in Invid Invasion/New Generation where most of the role play is with humans and zentraedi while the invid are more of looming threat.

I personally see "The New Generation" as the most open, since the Invid are so loosely defined, it gives the GM a lot of room to develop them. (Speaking of which, has anyone noticed this? I think it looks really interesting.)

I would not call it loosely defined I think it works because the Invid are so alien. They will completely ignore a mecha on the ground if it has no active protoculture and it didn't attack them but they might wipe out a village of unarmed civilians because they pick the wrong flowers.

The Invid as written are almost a force of nature and they bring a sense of menace to everything. You can use your Alpha or destroid to wipe out this gang of thieves trying to steal your crap but if you do the Invid might show up and ruin everyone's day. Just my favorite Robotech setting in both 1e and 2e.

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 Post subject: Re: The EBSIS
Unread postPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 1:56 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
I do not remember the EBSIS being this mustache twirling arch villain but to be fair I have not read these books in years. In my brief overview of the PDF's it still seems that they are more rivals than enemies...

They support bandits, secessionists, and hostile Zentradi, in addition to attacking on sight. That seems well within the territory of "enemy" to me.

Warshield73 wrote:
...but to me that is almost irrelevant. Most of what I have said stands as the EBSIS provides that chance for players to do actual roleplaying instead of just obliterating a bunch of battle pods.

Even aside from the logic of making the Soviet Union a major enemy, what can they do, narratively, that the Zentraedi can't? I mean, Zentraedi can be sneaky....

Warshield73 wrote:
[Comparing Star Wars to Robotech.]
Robotech is actually more limiting because it is a much smaller stage than a galaxy far far away.

Yes, the area of actionable space left over after the heroes are done with it is much smaller...

Warshield73 wrote:
While your human PCs can interact with some micronized Zentraedi all the mysteries are really laid out in the media. EBSIS, warlords, and other antagonists allow for more mystery and conflict.

...but I personally don't think adding enemy Soviets solves the problem.
The original series was about human encounters with the alien. While you can put a human enemy in the Robotech universe, it's not going to have the same meaning.


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 Post subject: Re: The EBSIS
Unread postPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 3:39 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
I have to disagree with this. You have to remember that an adventure can last just hours or days in universe. There are months or maybe even a year between the rain of death and Khyron's attack and death.

While this is true, it doesn't really get one away from the war(s)... there were brief lulls in armed hostilities in the timeline, but those were always overshadowed by the consequences of the wars and the threat of further violence. That's why EBSIS was a thing in 1e: war was all there was in the Robotech setting so the best they could do for adventure hooks was someone else to fight.





ESalter wrote:
Well, in the series itself there's quite a lot of non-combat interaction between the heroes and the aliens. I see the problem as being that most of the mysteries and problems in the series are solved in the end, which doesn't leave much for the PCs to do except sweep up footnotes.

Pretty much, yeah.


ESalter wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
The same is true in Invid Invasion/New Generation where most of the role play is with humans and zentraedi while the invid are more of looming threat.

I personally see "The New Generation" as the most open, since the Invid are so loosely defined, it gives the GM a lot of room to develop them.

The New Generation saga offers a bit more freedom with the narrative thanks to the hostilities with the Invid effectively being entirely one-sided. For all the fuss and noise the narrator makes about the Invid allegedly being evil slavers, the original story's writing shines through in that the Invid in the series are depicted as essentially uninterested in humanity's business unless someone does something that they perceive as a direct threat to them.

The main problem at that point is that Earth's such a mess that there's not a lot to do there anymore. There's no functioning government above the local level and sometimes not even that. There's no organized law enforcement most places apart from the occasional band of vigilantes armed with antique low-tech pistols. The main threat to humans is other humans in the form of biker gangs who've clearly seen Mad Max one too many times. Advanced technology is all but a memory except for caches of UEEF weapons that literally fall out of the sky. Yadda yadda preaching to the choir.


ESalter wrote:
(Speaking of which, has anyone noticed this? I think it looks really interesting.)

Ah yeah, Genesis Breaker. Tatsunoko Production made some noise about that last year and put a blurb about it in the last MOSPEADA artbook, but even that coverage was painfully sparse and gives no indication of what format this MOSPEADA side story is expected to take or when it's supposed to come out. I've translated most of the article in the aforementioned artbook and it's mostly recap of the MOSPEADA TV series timeline, with a few relevant details sprinkled in.

Spoiler:
The story is a side story that occurs in parallel with the events of Genesis Climber MOSPEADA in 2083 after the failure of the Second Earth Recapture mission.

The title refers to the protagonist's unit, a specialist force attached to the Martian government's Intelligence Bureau whose codename "BREAKERS" is used in the same sense as "circuit breaker", as in "a device to interrupt something to prevent damage". They were originally founded to suppress dissent (by force) during the unification of Mars and they retain the License to Kill the Martian government's Intelligence Bureau gave them back then. For their operations on Earth, their headquarters is the Archelon: a ship stationed in low lunar orbit that is tasked with relaying all information which the BREAKERS collect back to Mars for analysis. The BREAKERS are equipped with a prototype Dark Ride Armor - what Robotech would call a "Shadow Cyclone" - being developed for the forthcoming Third Earth Recapture mission to maintain stealthiness on Earth while they study the Inbit. BREAKER-1, the main character also known as Gate, is the example Dark Ride Armor shown which is set up with reconnaissance gear for field observation.

Government intelligence agents, license to kill, the latest shiny tech toys... they're basically Space 00's with a less glamorous job.

For my money, the most interesting detail in the piece is one of the most inconsequential ones... the origin of the aliens name and its correct English spelling. Yes, we've ALL apparently been saying it wrong for nearly four decades. When Earth was first invaded, they were referred to simply as "Invaders". Then, when their swarm-based intelligence became known they were individually referred to as "Invader Bit", which was then abbreviated to "INVIT". So apparently it's meant to be written "Invit", not "Inbit".


Not sure if Tatsunoko is waiting for 2023 to roll this one out on the 40th anniversary of MOSPEADA or what. No indication is given as to whether it'll be a TV anime, an OVA, ONA, light novel, manga, etc. (I'm inclined to suspect it won't be a TV anime, given how poorly Tatsunoko's last mecha anime outing went... The Price of Smiles was nearly a Southern Cross-level disaster when it came out on the studio's 55th anniversary.

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 Post subject: Re: The EBSIS
Unread postPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 8:59 am
  

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ESalter wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
The RDF gave them a prototype submersible carrier...

The RDF sold them a prototype submersible carrier "[a]s part of a diplomatic overture"...which obviously failed due, presumably, to the Soviet's inherent treachery.
Warshield73 wrote:
...and they worked with them in Africa...

No, they worked against them in Africa, supporting anti-RDF governments.

Re: prototype sub-carrier
The Sale occurred in 2008 to the Soviets (pg31 1E "RDF Manual", 6th Printing), however the EBSIS as an autonomous entity was not declared until July 2014 (pg25). The 1E RPG does sort of work with the premise that nations where not absorbed into the UEDC/UEG, but rather the UEDC/UEG was some type of organization like the UN or NATO (not the best analogy) that had a political body and a military force(s) dedicated to defense of Earth from aliens.

Re: Africa
It's a bit complicated. While 1E Bk 7's adventure module sets them up as a hostile power (IIRC) this is a revised position from what was in 1E Bk 4 "Armies of the Southern Cross" (pg71) when it discussed historical progression of the EBSIS's Africa campaign where it is established they issued a plea for help (and it took combined might of the EBSIS + RDF + ASC) to deal with a hostile Zentreadi presence.

Seto wrote:
While this is true, it doesn't really get one away from the war(s)... there were brief lulls in armed hostilities in the timeline, but those were always overshadowed by the consequences of the wars and the threat of further violence. That's why EBSIS was a thing in 1e: war was all there was in the Robotech setting so the best they could do for adventure hooks was someone else to fight.

The EBSIS, even in the 1E timeline, did not engage in open warfare with the RDF or ASC (and at least once was an ally), that doesn't mean minor skirmishes couldn't happen. The 1E though did not have the EBSIS as the lone independent state (York, Quebec, Merchant Republic), but what I think the EBSIS provided was a believable counterweight to the UEG so they couldn't just roll in for a take over (really York and Quebec are so small the RDF or ASC could roll right in, but the EBSIS is so powerful that doesn't seem likely).

The EBSIS (and other independent states) though also provides someone for the UEG to spy on or other clandestine options that do not fall under the heading of a declared war.

Spoiler:
[quote=Seto"]...The BREAKERS are equipped with a prototype Dark Ride Armor - what Robotech would call a "Shadow Cyclone" -[/quote]
Doesn't Robotech already have Shadow Cyclones in the old Invasion Videogame (or is that a VG only thing)? At least in terms of paint jobs I know some people have suggested that Shadow/Dark Cyclone/Mospeadas exist in the animation operated by Sue Grahm (VR-038) and a unit of VR-052, though I think they are just painted to match the new color theme of the UEEF/Mars Mecha.


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 Post subject: Re: The EBSIS
Unread postPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 11:37 am
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Re: prototype sub-carrier
The 1E RPG does sort of work with the premise that nations where not absorbed into the UEDC/UEG, but rather the UEDC/UEG was some type of organization like the UN or NATO (not the best analogy) that had a political body and a military force(s) dedicated to defense of Earth from aliens.

Which, in and of itself, is a pretty solid example of the kind of critical research failure that led Harmony Gold to disown RT1e, insist on editorial oversight over RT2e, and flatly reject the inclusion of any of Palladium's "original" inclusions like EBSIS.

Imagine repeatedly hearing reference to an organization like "United Earth Government" and leaping right to "Earth isn't united and its government doesn't govern". :roll:


ShadowLogan wrote:
Re: Africa
It's a bit complicated. While 1E Bk 7's adventure module sets them up as a hostile power (IIRC) this is a revised position from what was in 1E Bk 4 "Armies of the Southern Cross" (pg71) when it discussed historical progression of the EBSIS's Africa campaign where it is established they issued a plea for help (and it took combined might of the EBSIS + RDF + ASC) to deal with a hostile Zentreadi presence.

To be frank, that's pretty much on-brand for your standard issue Evil Soviets in any setting where a Bigger Fish exists. Play nice until outside help is no longer needed then immediately resume hostile military posturing or, for bonus points, set up a double-cross under the guise of teamwork.


ShadowLogan wrote:
The EBSIS, even in the 1E timeline, did not engage in open warfare with the RDF or ASC (and at least once was an ally), that doesn't mean minor skirmishes couldn't happen. The 1E though did not have the EBSIS as the lone independent state (York, Quebec, Merchant Republic), but what I think the EBSIS provided was a believable counterweight to the UEG so they couldn't just roll in for a take over (really York and Quebec are so small the RDF or ASC could roll right in, but the EBSIS is so powerful that doesn't seem likely).

As others have noted, EBSIS was on a pretty consistently hostile footing though... to the point of launching unprovoked surprise attacks on the UEG. So my point still stands... that's "the threat of further violence" mentioned previously.


Spoiler:
ShadowLogan wrote:
Seto wrote:
...The BREAKERS are equipped with a prototype Dark Ride Armor - what Robotech would call a "Shadow Cyclone" -

Doesn't Robotech already have Shadow Cyclones in the old Invasion Videogame (or is that a VG only thing)? At least in terms of paint jobs I know some people have suggested that Shadow/Dark Cyclone/Mospeadas exist in the animation operated by Sue Grahm (VR-038) and a unit of VR-052, though I think they are just painted to match the new color theme of the UEEF/Mars Mecha.

Well... yes and no?

While the fact wasn't directly acknowledged in the dialog of the original Genesis Climber MOSPEADA, the Ride Armor that Shinobu Takeuchi (RT: Sue Graham) was using in her only appearance in MOSPEADA Ep.23 has occasionally been indicated to be a Dark version of the VR-038L Bartley. In the original show, the "Dark" stealth conversion was applied to new and existing hardware. The model used by the BREAKERS is talked up as the "latest model Dark Ride Armor" in development that was being prototyped for introduction in the 3rd Descent Operation, so it's presumably a new type of Ride Armor that may or may not have actually been deployed to the troops involved in the 3rd Descent Operation (since they were offscreen anyway, it hardly matters).

I don't recall Robotech ever identifying Sue Graham's Bartley as a "Shadow Cyclone" though. I believe it's always treated the idea of a "Shadow Cyclone" as a new model and not something that was retrofitted into existing models. Both Robotech: Invasion and Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles took that approach with the idea. Invasion had one called the VR-101P "Shadow Dancer" that combined features of a couple other models from the game, and of course Shadow Chronicles had the VR-057 "Super Cyclone" which looked to be a lightly upgraded VR-052. As far as I can recall, none of the mecha or events from Invasion have been referenced in other works so the "Shadow Dancer" may not be canon and Vince Grant's Super Cyclone seems to be either a prototype or rare new model since his was the only one ever seen.

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 Post subject: Re: The EBSIS
Unread postPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 4:31 pm
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
Re: prototype sub-carrier
The 1E RPG does sort of work with the premise that nations where not absorbed into the UEDC/UEG, but rather the UEDC/UEG was some type of organization like the UN or NATO (not the best analogy) that had a political body and a military force(s) dedicated to defense of Earth from aliens.

Which, in and of itself, is a pretty solid example of the kind of critical research failure that led Harmony Gold to disown RT1e, insist on editorial oversight over RT2e, and flatly reject the inclusion of any of Palladium's "original" inclusions like EBSIS.

Imagine repeatedly hearing reference to an organization like "United Earth Government" and leaping right to "Earth isn't united and its government doesn't govern". :roll:


Kinda make sense though, since the whole economical and societal collapse... A United Earth Government would be harder to maintain with diminished logistics in transports, communications, and random rebel zentraedi groups throwing a tantrum in important infrastructure from time to time. I still find it likely that, nations which would have been hit hard by the first UEG's taxation efforts, would be very unconvinced once under the control of the ASC. All this is more or less a transference of power. First the "almost U.N. / Nato" stole as much authority as they could and enforced it. It lead to the Rain of Death. Then a big part of said UEG left, so remaining / rebuilding local governments started to have dreams for their own future once again.
The transition wasn't an easy and joyful one to begin with, considering the GCW and Anti-Unification wars. So I feel it makes more sense that a balkanization would happen, once some of the production chain would be restored by local entities.

Because for all its vaunted speed in rebuilding, the ASC and UEG would still have to target some communities first. Those in the periphery would eventually resent the delays. Once you do rebuild yourself faster alone, you kinda feel entitled to what you do have.

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 Post subject: Re: The EBSIS
Unread postPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 6:17 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:48 am
Posts: 260
A few things.
Quote:
The EBSIS supporting bandits.

Are they supporting bandits or freedom fighters? One nations bandit is another's freedom fighter. And who's to say the UEG didn't also support bandits and freedom fighters? Want to avoid international problems? Sent in a third party.



Quote:
The series only being about humans fighting aliens.

What about the Global War at the beginning of Macross and in episode 27? The humans forcing the UEG troops out of that one city? ATAC fighting TASC? Sympathizer towns ambushing soldiers? Biker gangs fighting each other? Seems to me like here's lots of humans fighting humans going in in the series. And if we go beyond the series there's Edward's civil war with the REF.

Quote:
If there's a United Earth Government, how can there be an EBSIS?

There's a United Nations now. There's also 195 nations on Earth. Each with their own laws, along with currency exchange rates, open conflict in places, countries sanctioning others, others wanting independence. How united is the United Nations? Why should the United Earth Government be any different?

Quote:
The PCs serve no purpose.

How do we know they don't? How do we know a PC didn't miss a communications skill check and turn the SDF-1's internal broadcast system to external broadcast which the Zentraedi then tuned in on?
Or that the PC's battle couldn't be the turning point in a war? Their valiant stand made sure the main force wasn't overrun. Bob fights off a squad of Battle Pods that would have hit Rick from behind? It was their Destroids that provided the distraction the defectors needed to get away? How do we know that Suzy didn't hire the PCs to see if her husband was cheating on her with one of the Miss Macross Contestants? Or that a plot to fix the contest wasn't averted by the PCs? That the PCs were assigned to escort rancher Dan's cattle to to the Monument City stockyards? Or that Yellow Dancer wasn't the only musical spy? We don't. That leaves a lot of room for role playing.


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 Post subject: Re: The EBSIS
Unread postPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 6:40 pm
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
Re: prototype sub-carrier
The 1E RPG does sort of work with the premise that nations where not absorbed into the UEDC/UEG, but rather the UEDC/UEG was some type of organization like the UN or NATO (not the best analogy) that had a political body and a military force(s) dedicated to defense of Earth from aliens.

Which, in and of itself, is a pretty solid example of the kind of critical research failure that led Harmony Gold to disown RT1e, insist on editorial oversight over RT2e, and flatly reject the inclusion of any of Palladium's "original" inclusions like EBSIS.

I don't keep up on Robotech that much but I seem to remember that in addition to disowning Palladium Books 1e they also disowned a 20+ novel series, comics, and a ton of there own materials. You could almost say that in the '90's HG just throw licensed material out into the world with few instructions for the purpose of making money.

xunk16 wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
Re: prototype sub-carrier
The 1E RPG does sort of work with the premise that nations where not absorbed into the UEDC/UEG, but rather the UEDC/UEG was some type of organization like the UN or NATO (not the best analogy) that had a political body and a military force(s) dedicated to defense of Earth from aliens.

Which, in and of itself, is a pretty solid example of the kind of critical research failure that led Harmony Gold to disown RT1e, insist on editorial oversight over RT2e, and flatly reject the inclusion of any of Palladium's "original" inclusions like EBSIS.

Imagine repeatedly hearing reference to an organization like "United Earth Government" and leaping right to "Earth isn't united and its government doesn't govern". :roll:


Kinda make sense though, since the whole economical and societal collapse... A United Earth Government would be harder to maintain with diminished logistics in transports, communications, and random rebel zentraedi groups throwing a tantrum in important infrastructure from time to time. I still find it likely that, nations which would have been hit hard by the first UEG's taxation efforts, would be very unconvinced once under the control of the ASC. All this is more or less a transference of power. First the "almost U.N. / Nato" stole as much authority as they could and enforced it. It lead to the Rain of Death. Then a big part of said UEG left, so remaining / rebuilding local governments started to have dreams for their own future once again.
The transition wasn't an easy and joyful one to begin with, considering the GCW and Anti-Unification wars. So I feel it makes more sense that a balkanization would happen, once some of the production chain would be restored by local entities.

Because for all its vaunted speed in rebuilding, the ASC and UEG would still have to target some communities first. Those in the periphery would eventually resent the delays. Once you do rebuild yourself faster alone, you kinda feel entitled to what you do have.

I think what you have to remember is HG is telling a very small scale story where as PB has to create a world that you can adventure in. Like most media properties when you go to develop your IP into other media it has to be expanded.

Again, I go back to the old West End Star Wars. When they started there was just 2 movies and few novelizations so they had to create everything. It is amazing today how much of canon Star Wars comes from those books but they did it just to create a galaxy you could adventure in. PB had to do the same for Robotech otherwise it gets pretty boring pretty quickly in an RPG setting. Is EBSIS a terribly imaginative secondary antagonists? No. Is it some horrible destruction of Robotech,IMO no.

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 Post subject: Re: The EBSIS
Unread postPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 7:18 pm
  

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Knight

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xunk16 wrote:
Kinda make sense though, since the whole economical and societal collapse... A United Earth Government would be harder to maintain with diminished logistics in transports, communications, and random rebel zentraedi groups throwing a tantrum in important infrastructure from time to time.

Not in actual Robotech, no. The United Earth Government would be governing on Easy Mode since the entire population of Earth now fits neatly into a handful of medium-sized towns all clustered around the SDF-1's landing site in Alaska, making it easy for the military to maintain communications infrastructure and manage distribution of essential supplies like food, clean water, and medicine to the citizenry.

This, of course, being why HG banned the inclusion of EBSIS and factions like it from the RPG. It's just ridiculous on the face of it.


xunk16 wrote:
I still find it likely that, nations which would have been hit hard by the first UEG's taxation efforts, would be very unconvinced once under the control of the ASC. All this is more or less a transference of power. First the "almost U.N. / Nato" stole as much authority as they could and enforced it. It lead to the Rain of Death. Then a big part of said UEG left, so remaining / rebuilding local governments started to have dreams for their own future once again.

Kind of a non-issue, since there weren't any nations left when the Zentradi got done with Earth and nobody was going to argue with the United Earth Government afterwards because everyone on Earth was dependent on the UEDF for distribution of daily necessities like food, clean water, medicine housing, etc. Without the UEG, the only real option is to wander out into the desolation and die slowly of exposure.

The United Earth Government didn't "steal" any authority. It was given the authority it had by the mutual consent of the nations of Earth who united to form it. It had essentially no role in the Rain of Death, because the Zentradi were utterly uninterested in negotiation of any kind and no amount of preparation would have overcome their overwhelming numerical superiority. No part of the UEG left, unless you could "being vaporized" as leaving, and the local governments established thereafter were dependent on the UEG for basically everything.


xunk16 wrote:
The transition wasn't an easy and joyful one to begin with, considering the GCW and Anti-Unification wars. So I feel it makes more sense that a balkanization would happen, once some of the production chain would be restored by local entities.

There's no such event as the "Anti-Unification Wars" in Robotech.





Sambot wrote:
Are they supporting bandits or freedom fighters? One nations bandit is another's freedom fighter. And who's to say the UEG didn't also support bandits and freedom fighters? Want to avoid international problems? Sent in a third party.

The dichotomy you were looking for was "terrorist or freedom fighter". Bandits are just thieves, and while government-sponsored acts of piracy are a thing such agreements are less support and more "we promise not to kill you as long as you target our enemy instead". Mind you, the idea doesn't quite work regardless because EBSIS and the other non-canon rival powers inserted into RT1e are very blatantly the greater evil.

Quote:
Bandit (Noun): a robber or outlaw belonging to a gang and typically operating in an isolated or lawless area.



Sambot wrote:
What about the Global War at the beginning of Macross and in episode 27?

Episode 33, actually... but not enough detail there to go on, and canon Robotech even goes so far as to suggest the whole Anti-Unification League is a false flag operation carried out by the UEDF to justify its military spending before the aliens rolled up. The rest of what you had here was getting rather unbelievably broad with the definition of "fight"...


Sambot wrote:
There's a United Nations now. There's also 195 nations on Earth. Each with their own laws, along with currency exchange rates, open conflict in places, countries sanctioning others, others wanting independence. How united is the United Nations? Why should the United Earth Government be any different?

The United Nations is not a government. It is an intergovernmental diplomatic organization with little-to-no actual power.

The United Earth Government, on the other hand, was a supranational government formed and empowered by the mutual consent of the world's nations. Robotech is pretty damned clear that it really was United Earth, admittedly one where lofty ideals of brotherhood were motivated by a tangible external threat rather than simply the better angels of man's nature prevailing.

You're making an applies and oranges comparison here.


Sambot wrote:
How do we know they don't? How do we know a PC didn't miss a communications skill check and turn the SDF-1's internal broadcast system to external broadcast which the Zentraedi then tuned in on?
Or that the PC's battle couldn't be the turning point in a war? Their valiant stand made sure the main force wasn't overrun. Bob fights off a squad of Battle Pods that would have hit Rick from behind? It was their Destroids that provided the distraction the defectors needed to get away? How do we know that Suzy didn't hire the PCs to see if her husband was cheating on her with one of the Miss Macross Contestants? Or that a plot to fix the contest wasn't averted by the PCs? That the PCs were assigned to escort rancher Dan's cattle to to the Monument City stockyards? Or that Yellow Dancer wasn't the only musical spy? We don't. That leaves a lot of room for role playing.

At that point, the player characters aren't the heroes of their own story... they're background characters in someone else's. That's not really fodder for a compelling story most of the time. Rather like having an overbearing GMPNC railroading things.

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 Post subject: Re: The EBSIS
Unread postPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 7:31 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
I don't keep up on Robotech that much but I seem to remember that in addition to disowning Palladium Books 1e they also disowned a 20+ novel series, comics, and a ton of there own materials. You could almost say that in the '90's HG just throw licensed material out into the world with few instructions for the purpose of making money.

Your memory is good... they disowned effectively everything made by licensees prior to 2000. All the novels, all the comics published by Comico, Eternity/Malibu, Academy, and Antarctic Press, all the 1st Edition RPG books, even the setting materials in Robotech Art 1 and Robotech Art 3 got broomed.

Their primary reason for doing so being very much what you say there... that, as they put it, "nobody was minding the store" and licensees were doing whatever the hell they wanted without any kind of creative oversight, editorial review, or quality control from Harmony Gold. They had given up on Robotech after the twofold failure of Sentinels and Untold Story and selling licenses to any interested party willing to write a sufficiently (not very) large check. They didn't start giving a damn again until around 1998 when they revoked Antarctic Press's license and started attempting to ramp up for a revival of the animated series with Robotech 3000 (which bombed) and then a hard reboot of the entire franchise.


Warshield73 wrote:
Again, I go back to the old West End Star Wars. When they started there was just 2 movies and few novelizations so they had to create everything. It is amazing today how much of canon Star Wars comes from those books but they did it just to create a galaxy you could adventure in. PB had to do the same for Robotech otherwise it gets pretty boring pretty quickly in an RPG setting. Is EBSIS a terribly imaginative secondary antagonists? No. Is it some horrible destruction of Robotech,IMO no.

Granted, that's true... they had to do something to make the Robotech setting seem bigger to give players something to do. The problem with EBSIS, as elaborated on at tedious length on the previous page, is that it makes no logical sense as a faction politically, socially, or chronologically. Kevin just reached for the lowest-hanging fruit.

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 Post subject: Re: The EBSIS
Unread postPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 11:23 am
  

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Seto wrote:
Which, in and of itself, is a pretty solid example of the kind of critical research failure that led Harmony Gold to disown RT1e, insist on editorial oversight over RT2e, and flatly reject the inclusion of any of Palladium's "original" inclusions like EBSIS.

Imagine repeatedly hearing reference to an organization like "United Earth Government" and leaping right to "Earth isn't united and its government doesn't govern"

When it comes to the older licenses like 1E RPG or the Novels I think a better way to look at it than if it's consistent with the modern 85Ep take (or even for the time) is if the license is internally consistent with itself given HG's approach to the license in that period. As I've said in the past, for all practical purposes these amount to their own self contained universes (especially given some of the timeline "clarifications" HG didn't make until 2001-ish).

In that case I think they do make "sense", at least going by the 1E RPG timeline for the period found in Bk2 (pg24-6). The EBSIS and other Independent States did not really appear until 2014 after the RDF was severely weakened by the loss of the SDF-1 in 2013 and the formation of a the new UEG around the same time. We do not know the political structure of the UEG either in 2013 or back in 2001 with the first incarnation. The 2001 is important since it might explain the sale in 2008 that the EBSIS inherited, and it might explain the 2013 "refuse to join". The 1E RPG also had 30% of the world's population surviving (that's 300million people per billion).

The UEG might make for an less than truthful statement in its naming, I agree but is that really any different than the United States of America (the US has territories that are not states, then there is the Native American Reserve/Nation system, plus the US is not the only national level govt. in America).

Seto wrote:
As others have noted, EBSIS was on a pretty consistently hostile footing though... to the point of launching unprovoked surprise attacks on the UEG. So my point still stands... that's "the threat of further violence" mentioned previously.

I agree the EBSIS was on frenemy hostile footing with the UEG, but neither actually engaged in a Full-scale war with each other. At best we have lots of minor skirmishes (player encounters) or via proxies (bandits, Zentreadi).


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 Post subject: Re: The EBSIS
Unread postPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 8:51 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
When it comes to the older licenses like 1E RPG or the Novels I think a better way to look at it than if it's consistent with the modern 85Ep take (or even for the time) is if the license is internally consistent with itself given HG's approach to the license in that period.

No offense, but that's just an incredibly blatant attempt to assert that those old licensed works should be exempt from any critical evaluation by insisting each and every one of them should be the sole occupant of its own special category.

In objective terms, these are licensed works based on the Robotech TV series and they should be judged as such. That's what Harmony Gold did. I see no rational justification for us to do otherwise. Especially as the licensees who made these materials did not set out to make their own original takes on the Robotech setting. They just did a poor job building on the Robotech official setting at the time. Whether it was because they were flying blind, rushed, lazy, or simply incompetent, it doesn't matter. What matters is that these licensees were supposed to be building on the TV series and, for whatever reason, they failed so miserably at it that despite it all having been non-canon from the word "go" Harmony Gold publicly disowned as "Robotech in name only" as soon as they actually started looking at it properly.


ShadowLogan wrote:
As I've said in the past, for all practical purposes these amount to their own self contained universes [...]

No, for all practical purposes these are simply failures of the creative process and not a part of any universe.

Fans of these disowned works sometimes posit that they could be alternate universes, but fanon's all that is.

Officially, Robotech doesn't have any alternate universe settings. There's just "canon" and "non". We'll never know if Harmony Gold's policy would've changed due to Titan Comics' plans for their widely mocked comic series due to its (long overdue) silent cancellation and abandonment early last year, but even that only acknowledged Titan's comic and the various failed animated sequels.


ShadowLogan wrote:
In that case I think they do make "sense", at least going by the 1E RPG timeline for the period found in Bk2 (pg24-6). The EBSIS and other Independent States did not really appear until 2014 after the RDF was severely weakened by the loss of the SDF-1 in 2013 and the formation of a the new UEG around the same time.

Not really, no... because at that point in time we know that UEG was the only government in town (literally) and that everyone or practically everyone was dependent on the military for things like food.

There's no way for a rival government to form when breaking away from the only existing government means starvation.

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 Post subject: Re: The EBSIS
Unread postPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 1:43 am
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
When it comes to the older licenses like 1E RPG or the Novels I think a better way to look at it than if it's consistent with the modern 85Ep take (or even for the time) is if the license is internally consistent with itself given HG's approach to the license in that period.

No offense, but that's just an incredibly blatant attempt to assert that those old licensed works should be exempt from any critical evaluation by insisting each and every one of them should be the sole occupant of its own special category.

How is judging something in its historical context trying to exempt it from criticism? You make it sound as if HG had piles of world building that PB and other license holders simply ignored. This was a cannibalized series that on a good day only makes sense if you're on shrooms and PB had to make a world out of it.

HG gave almost no direction to this series for PB, Kevin frequently tells the story about having to pay for Japanese translations for original work, this is important context when evaluating the work.

If HG had laid out a whole world for PB and Kevin just ignored them that would be important context as well but that didn't happen.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
In objective terms, these are licensed works based on the Robotech TV series and they should be judged as such. That's what Harmony Gold did. I see no rational justification for us to do otherwise. Especially as the licensees who made these materials did not set out to make their own original takes on the Robotech setting. They just did a poor job building on the Robotech official setting at the time. Whether it was because they were flying blind, rushed, lazy, or simply incompetent, it doesn't matter. What matters is that these licensees were supposed to be building on the TV series and, for whatever reason, they failed so miserably at it that despite it all having been non-canon from the word "go" Harmony Gold publicly disowned as "Robotech in name only" as soon as they actually started looking at it properly.

First, a judgement on creative works is always going to be subjective. You can wrap an opinion in the word objective doesn't transform it into fact.

Second, there is no evidence that HG did any kind of evaluation of licensed properties. They created a huge mess by pimping out there IP to anyone that would pay and then when they finally decided to try and do something with it again (Shadow Chronicles and the failed sequels) they just wiped it all away. I am not saying that is a bad thing, much like with Star Wars it was just easier to wipe everything away and then include what you want but this was not some process based on a critical evaluation of the works.

Finally, I get it you don't like what PB did in 1e, that's your oppinion. I like it, so do many others. I prefer the McKinney novels to the series (the singing makes me want to put a gun to my head) but I know I am in an extreme minority there. You think EBSIS and other such creations are lazy or incompetent, I get that I feel the same way about the UEG. Don't want to come up with actual world political system just make it a world government. It is the essence of lazy and I don't just say that about Robotech, it has always been my chief complaint about Star Trek for instance? All the humans are in the federation, all the klingons are in there empire, all the romulans in there empire, and so on and so on.

In a TV series you can get away with that because you only tell the stories you want but the second you create a TTRPG where the players can go anywhere and do anything it becomes toxically boring, IMO. A TTRPG needs more of a world than the animated series could provide so something had to be added. If your complaint is that you don't like what they added that is a perfectly valid opinion. If on the other hand you are upset that they added anything at all that's not reasonable at all. PB was paying for a license and needed to publish books to make it worth it and the series provided maybe enough material for 4 very short books.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
As I've said in the past, for all practical purposes these amount to their own self contained universes [...]

No, for all practical purposes these are simply failures of the creative process and not a part of any universe.

Fans of these disowned works sometimes posit that they could be alternate universes, but fanon's all that is.

Officially, Robotech doesn't have any alternate universe settings. There's just "canon" and "non". We'll never know if Harmony Gold's policy would've changed due to Titan Comics' plans for their widely mocked comic series due to its (long overdue) silent cancellation and abandonment early last year, but even that only acknowledged Titan's comic and the various failed animated sequels.

These are written works that were officially licensed by HG and allowed to exist for years so yes they are there own self contained universe. Star Wars can relegate all the old books to "Legends" but they still exist and make a self contained universe. HG can simply disown everything they allowed but it still exists. It's not an official alternate universe, just like Legends isn't for SW, but it is its own self contained universe.

I am also curious as to how you define "failures of the creative process"? These works have there fans and there detractors but not sure how that is failure.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
In that case I think they do make "sense", at least going by the 1E RPG timeline for the period found in Bk2 (pg24-6). The EBSIS and other Independent States did not really appear until 2014 after the RDF was severely weakened by the loss of the SDF-1 in 2013 and the formation of a the new UEG around the same time.

Not really, no... because at that point in time we know that UEG was the only government in town (literally) and that everyone or practically everyone was dependent on the military for things like food.

There's no way for a rival government to form when breaking away from the only existing government means starvation.

And how do we know this. I watched the entire Robotech series a few years ago and there is almost nothing about the larger world. I know because that was the information I was looking for to try and run my games.

But, assume this was clearly stated it doesn't change the fact that PB needed to create a wider world for adventuring and to quote one of my favorite Youtubers World Governments are Boring . The idea that a world government could hold on to global power after allowing most of the world to be annihilated is laughable. There are going to be nationalist uprising, religious revivals and even just political opportunism.

Simple fact is the PB 1e and even the McKinney novels provided a more complete world to adventure in than the series did.

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 Post subject: Re: The EBSIS
Unread postPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 10:18 am
  

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Seto wrote:
No offense, but that's just an incredibly blatant attempt to assert that those old licensed works should be exempt from any critical evaluation by insisting each and every one of them should be the sole occupant of its own special category.

I do not oppose critical evaluation of the material. I agree that in some aspects of the 1E RPG (and novels) could have been better than what we got.

But to say that every incarnation of a licensed property has to be 100% faithful to the original material is just a laughable expectation:
-Star Wars EP4 and EP6 both have scenes in their novelizations that did not make the cut to the final film (either the SE in 97 or w/prequel integration cut or original to release)
-The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (Series) has differences between the Novelization (and further to it's audio book form in the series), the BBC series, the Hollywood Movie, and I would not be surprised to changes between other incarnations like its radio format
-GI Joe has differences between its original comic book run by Hama and the Sunbow Series (never mind later works like the LA movies)
-Transformers is similar to GI Joe in that its original comic book run by Marvel (and Marvel UK) are different than the TV animation (never mind later works)
-Masters of the Universe, the toyline had its own mythos separate from the TV cartoon and the LA Movie in '87
-differences between Anime and Manga and LA adaptions of the same story in Japan
-Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (just comparing the adaptations of the 80/90s between the comic, cartoon, and LA movies of the time)
-then you have Marvel and DC Superheroes with their alternate timelines in comic form, distinct takes in TV (cartoon/LA forms) and movies over the past 70+ years of history
-The "M.A.N.T.I.S" TV show in the 90s (on Fox, Superhero category) was based on a comic book series, but even they did changes when they adapted it to the small screen.
-"The Tick" would be another its been adapted as a Cartoon, a FOX LA TV show, an an Amazon Prime LA Show, each with their own different take on the characters
-Arthur C. Clarke's Odyssey Series, there are distinct differences between the Movie adaptation and the Novelization (though when doing subsequent Novelizations he based it on the Movie adaptation instead of the previous book).

So what makes Robotech so special that we should expect a 100% faithful reproduction when it changes medium? Especially given the list above, and I suspect people can add to it, it would seem a laughable expectation for a 100% faithful reproduction, especially given the time frame the 1E/Novels come from.

Seto wrote:
Not really, no... because at that point in time we know that UEG was the only government in town (literally) and that everyone or practically everyone was dependent on the military for things like food.

That is in the Yune-verse, in the 1E RPG that is not exactly the case BK 2 pg25 "The RDF does what it can to help the survivors of the global holocaust". The phrase "what it can to help" suggests that it is not the only game in town and the RDF appears to be running the shots from 2011-4 and not the UEG. The entry on pg28 about the EBSIS even supports this because it was the Scandinavian area that European refugees fled to (and overwhelmed) and offered support, not the RDF and that was one of the regions that did not join the new UEG. I will point out that the 1E RPG also allows for 30% of the worlds population to survive and not just the SDF-1/Macross City.

I think its important to remember that we do not know, now or then, how the UEG is structured below the top level. From a management perspective the UEG likely organizes some type of State/Provincial System (which if any successfully succeeded would be a new nation) and most likely organized into smaller and smaller regions further (County and Community). Each of these sub-entity regions is going to have its own set of available resources. In 1E RPG terms the UEG had loosely kept the old national boarders in place at some level by the text even by 2014. Those regions in the 1E RPG could in theory secede especially if they where essentially self-sufficient OR had something to trade with the UEG or other secessionists (York and Quebec trade with each other IIRC).


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 Post subject: Re: The EBSIS
Unread postPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 12:54 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
The idea that a world government could hold on to global power after allowing most of the world to be annihilated is laughable. There are going to be nationalist uprising...

Why? The United Earth Government was formed against the threat of alien attack. That threat's even more apparent after the Robotech War.

Warshield73 wrote:
...religious revivals...

Why would a religious revival be a threat to the United Earth Government?

Warshield73 wrote:
...and even just political opportunism.

Individual leaders might be sacked after the Zentradi attack, and the UEG might be reorganized, but neither is a threat to the concept of world government itself. We know this, because the United Earth Government is still being mentioned after the First Robotech War.

Warshield73 wrote:
Simple fact is the PB 1e and even the McKinney novels provided a more complete world to adventure in than the series did.

I've got to say, I've long thought the opposite, WRT the novels. The RPG, of course, usually tried to keep enemies around as long as possible, even to the extent of having the Invid come back again after leaving. But Luceno and Daily tended to kill anyone the narrative is done with.


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 Post subject: Re: The EBSIS
Unread postPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 1:02 pm
  

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ESalter wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Simple fact is the PB 1e and even the McKinney novels provided a more complete world to adventure in than the series did.

I've got to say, I've long thought the opposite, WRT the novels. The RPG, of course, usually tried to keep enemies around as long as possible, even to the extent of having the Invid come back again after leaving. But Luceno and Daily tended to kill anyone the narrative is done with.


I agree with WS on this.
He wasn't talking about the Characters. But about the World the characters inhabit. It is all the details about that world that are in some sense more interesting than the characters that inhabit it. All those nice details that got vacuumed out of the setting with the new ed, making the new ed all that much more banal and monochrome.

Yes the RPG will try to keep around the Badies the people know from the series. This is so they don't have to reinvent new ones for the gamebooks.

Yes, the novels will tend to drop people out of the narrative once their story arch is done. It is just the nature of story writing.

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 Post subject: Re: The EBSIS
Unread postPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 2:10 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
How is judging something in its historical context trying to exempt it from criticism?

Go back and read what I quoted... because that not only isn't what he suggested, it's the opposite of what he suggested.

I'm the one saying that they SHOULD be judged in context as licensed works based on the canon at the time. He's advocating for segregating each licensed work and judging them separately out of its historical and production context, purely on the basis of how consistent they are with themselves and only themselves... which is an attempt to issue them a "get out of jail free" card for being licensed works that barely resemble the source material.


Warshield73 wrote:
You make it sound as if HG had piles of world building that PB and other license holders simply ignored.

At no point did I say or imply that, so that one is purely on you.


Warshield73 wrote:
HG gave almost no direction to this series for PB, Kevin frequently tells the story about having to pay for Japanese translations for original work, this is important context when evaluating the work.

Yes, we know... and that would be a perfectly valid excuse if the RPG were sparsely-written or had the occasional error. That doesn't excuse the RPG departing from the setting of the TV series that it's based on to such a degree that it outright contradicts the show's setting.


Warshield73 wrote:
First, a judgement on creative works is always going to be subjective. You can wrap an opinion in the word objective doesn't transform it into fact.

... I get the distinct feeling you rushed to object with such haste that you didn't actually read my post or ShadowLogan's properly.

It is objectively true that the Robotech role-playing game is a licensed work based on the Robotech animated television series. It is only logical that we judge it on those grounds, especially since that's the same criteria that Harmony Gold used to evaluate both the 1st and 2nd editions of the game.


Warshield73 wrote:
Second, there is no evidence that HG did any kind of evaluation of licensed properties.

Uh... buddy, there's not only "no evidence" that HG didn't do any kind of evaluation, they've flat-out STATED FOR THE RECORD that they didn't. That, incidentally, is a point I made in several previous posts so I'm not sure why you're repeating it back to me like it counters my position here. That lack of creative oversight or editorial review is one of the reasons those licensed works were branded as Robotech-in-name-only and disowned by Harmony Gold... with the strong implication from HG that, if they'd done their job properly, none of those works would've passed muster.


Warshield73 wrote:
Finally, I get it you don't like what PB did in 1e, that's your oppinion. I like it, so do many others.

Liking it or not is irrelevant to whether or not it actually fits with the Robotech setting.


Warshield73 wrote:
You think EBSIS and other such creations are lazy or incompetent, I get that I feel the same way about the UEG. Don't want to come up with actual world political system just make it a world government. It is the essence of lazy and I don't just say that about Robotech, it has always been my chief complaint about Star Trek for instance? All the humans are in the federation, all the klingons are in there empire, all the romulans in there empire, and so on and so on.

EBSIS was a profoundly lazy, thoughtless inclusion... not just because it fell back on cold war hysteria, but because it contradicted the Robotech setting on multiple levels.

Mind you, the inclusion of a unified government is not something you can even really blame Robotech for. That was part of ALL THREE original shows and it made internal sense with the settings that all three shows had:
  • Macross's Earth Unification Government sprang up in the wake of Alien Starship One's crash on South Ataria island when the world's governments realized they needed to form a united front against the possibility of conflict with the clearly warlike owners of the wrecked alien ship.
  • Southern Cross was set on a recently-colonized planet after a nuclear holocaust forced humanity to abandon Earth. Unity was a necessity of life since Glorie wasn't self-sufficient until shortly before the events of the series, and was dependent on the older colony on Liberte. They were also determined not to repeat the mistakes that left Earth not only uninhabitable by humanity but utterly incapable of supporting life. The Zor, by their own token, were also unified for the same reason: they'd destroyed Glorie in a nuclear holocaust millennia before the series and rearchitected their entire society to prize unity above all else and prevent a recurrence of that kind of tragedy.
  • MOSPEADA, like Macross, featured the unification of a fractious political environment against a common threat: the Invit. The outer solar system colonies put monumental effort into the development of their colonies to accommodate the refugees from Earth and banded together to retake the planet.

(I'd also take this opportunity to point out that, in Star Trek not all humans are in the Federation... that there are human colonies outside of Federation jurisdiction has been canon since TOS and TAS.)


Warshield73 wrote:
In a TV series you can get away with that because you only tell the stories you want but the second you create a TTRPG where the players can go anywhere and do anything it becomes toxically boring, IMO. A TTRPG needs more of a world than the animated series could provide so something had to be added. If your complaint is that you don't like what they added that is a perfectly valid opinion. If on the other hand you are upset that they added anything at all that's not reasonable at all. PB was paying for a license and needed to publish books to make it worth it and the series provided maybe enough material for 4 very short books.

To be fair, it's still toxically boring even with Palladium's decidedly non-canon additions... but the sensible thing to do in a situation like that is what animation studios do all the time when they adapt a work that isn't complete yet: they sit down with the creators and get them onboard with developing new content. It's not like HG had anything else do at the time!


Warshield73 wrote:
These are written works that were officially licensed by HG and allowed to exist for years so yes they are there own self contained universe. Star Wars can relegate all the old books to "Legends" but they still exist and make a self contained universe. HG can simply disown everything they allowed but it still exists. It's not an official alternate universe, just like Legends isn't for SW, but it is its own self contained universe.

For one, that's... not how that works.

For two, they're so wildly inconsistent with themselves and each other that there's no rational argument for them being a "self-contained universe".

For three, and the hat trick, no... that a work exists doesn't make it an alternate universe if it's not canon. It's just non-canon. To assert otherwise is just fanon.


Warshield73 wrote:
I am also curious as to how you define "failures of the creative process"? These works have there fans and there detractors but not sure how that is failure.

... if you're making a licensed work based on an established setting and your end result not only barely resembles that setting but is so wide of the mark that the license issuer is so horrified that they disown your work entirely? That's a pretty big failure in the creative process.



Seto Kaiba wrote:
And how do we know this. I watched the entire Robotech series a few years ago and there is almost nothing about the larger world. I know because that was the information I was looking for to try and run my games.

It comes up several times in the show, most blatantly when Kyle is having his hissy fit over Minmei being paid in food.


Warshield73 wrote:
The idea that a world government could hold on to global power after allowing most of the world to be annihilated is laughable. There are going to be nationalist uprising, religious revivals and even just political opportunism.

The idea that a world government formed on the basis of an external threat is going to hold onto power when that threat demonstrates itself in the most concrete way imaginable is pretty plausible... especially when they also control the distribution of food, water, and medicine.






ShadowLogan wrote:
I do not oppose critical evaluation of the material. I agree that in some aspects of the 1E RPG (and novels) could have been better than what we got.

But to say that every incarnation of a licensed property has to be 100% faithful to the original material is just a laughable expectation:

... and you completely missed the point.

You've got a list of things which are either non-canon, some intentionally so, or official alternate universes...

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 Post subject: Re: The EBSIS
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:52 pm
  

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But to add, having other governments pop up and cause drama is fun. And some third rate government selling knock off mecha to anyone with the cash makes for some good mecha stompy time.

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 Post subject: Re: The EBSIS
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 3:59 pm
  

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Defender_X wrote:
But to add, having other governments pop up and cause drama is fun. And some third rate government selling knock off mecha to anyone with the cash makes for some good mecha stompy time.

Well, yeah... the emergence of a rogue nation and the havoc it can cause can be a fun narrative device in a setting where a turn of events like that is actually plausible.

Robotech's setting just isn't conducive to that kind of thing. From the early 2000s, Earth is ruled by a world government and when that's wiped out along with almost the entire population by alien invaders it's replaced by a de facto military autocracy with a monopoly on the essentials of life as well as weapons development and manufacturing. Then that de facto military autocracy gets wiped out by another alien invasion force and there's no government above the level of village mayors and Fist of the North Star-style gang leaders.

There are lots of settings where that kind of thing works... Robotech just isn't one of them.

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 Post subject: Re: The EBSIS
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:10 pm
  

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Defender_X wrote:
But to add, having other governments pop up and cause drama is fun. And some third rate government selling knock off mecha to anyone with the cash makes for some good mecha stompy time.


Wonderfully so. It provides so much oppourtunity in the between series times.

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 Post subject: Re: The EBSIS
Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 10:11 am
  

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After the fall of the Zentraedi, there is so much Zentraedi-wreckage, that, why hasn't numerous smaller governments popped up, creating hybrids of Zentraedi-UN mecha? I mean, the Zentraedi's Battlepod PBC should be a staple in every surviving Earth's governments.

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 Post subject: Re: The EBSIS
Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:53 pm
  

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Peacebringer wrote:
After the fall of the Zentraedi, there is so much Zentraedi-wreckage, that, why hasn't numerous smaller governments popped up, creating hybrids of Zentraedi-UN mecha? I mean, the Zentraedi's Battlepod PBC should be a staple in every surviving Earth's governments.

With the radical change brought on by alien technologies, a lot of the smaller governments have blown up their attempts to jury-rig the wreckage. It turns out a minimum knowledge infrastructure is necessary to support the new technologies. The EBSIS is just the largest and most successful, followed by the Merchant Republic.

Which of course, opens the possibilities of adventures shutting down city-states' attempts to jury-rig alien tech and of adventures where some small or isolated group has managed to jury-rig alien tech. How do they DO that?!


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 Post subject: Re: The EBSIS
Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:46 pm
  

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Peacebringer wrote:
After the fall of the Zentraedi, there is so much Zentraedi-wreckage, that, why hasn't numerous smaller governments popped up, creating hybrids of Zentraedi-UN mecha?

Oh, there's a bunch of reasons.
  1. There aren't enough people.
    In Robotech's TV series, the surviving human populaton after the First Robotech War is less than 100,000 people. As noted in a previous post, you can literally fit the entire human population into a single football stadium with seats left over.
  2. Earth is a wasteland.
    After the First Robotech War, most of Earth is basically uninhabitable. The orbital bombardment wiped out Earth's surface, leaving a sterile desert of dust and impact craters. Areas of surviving vegitation are few, far between, and too sparse to live on sustainably. The oceans and water table are also heavily contaminated with the dust and debris from the bombardment, meaning the water isn't safe to drink either. Trying to go it alone means a slow death from starvation or a marginally faster one from dehydration, if the dust storms don't get you first.
  3. The de facto military government has a monopoly on manufacturing and the distribution of essential supplies.
    Of course, the biggest problem with trying to "go it alone" and create a new city-state or what have you is that rationing is still in effect even at the heart of the new government and the military has complete control over the distribution of little things like food, potable water, medical supplies, and weaponry. If you don't have access to food and clean water, you're going to die. You need the manufacturing capability to build tools, factories, and foundaries to build the essentials of civilization. There's no wood available on 99% of the planet, so you're either building with stone or salvaged metal. You need foundaries with specialized furnaces to recycle scrap metal into usable building materials or make metal tools hard enough to work stone. You need factories with a wide variety of specialized tools to create things like water purifcation and recycling systems, hydroponic or aeroponic farms, synthetic materials to make textiles and other essentials from. Never mind building robotechnology-based weapons. Without that infrastructure - the infrastructure the military has a monopoly on - you're not creating a breakaway state or new government... you're just a tribe of refugee survivalists squatting in the desert for no reason and to the benefit of literally nobody.
  4. Knowledge of, and proficiency with, advanced alien technologies is jealously guarded.
    Unlike in the original Macross, where the study and reverse engineering of advanced alien technologies was undertaken by a substantial international research organization and the advances from that research shared equally around the world and exploited by a huge number of industries who understood how these technologies worked... in Robotech, the knowledge of what makes robotechnology tick is the exclusive province of a double handful of the military's top (and top secret) scientists. Even they don't actually fully understand most of it. Your average civilian after the First Robotech War has about as much chance of being able to successfully salvage and re-engineer an alien war mech as you do... which is to say, "None whatsoever". Because so much about robotechnology is closely guarded military secrets, only that double handful of military scientists like Lang, Zand, Cochrane, etc. have the necessary education and skills to develop new robotechnology-based weapons... and they're living comfortably on the military's payroll.
  5. With the human species teetering on the brink of extinction, the military has no reason to tolerate the existence of a breakaway government.
    Seriously. Trying to break away from the UEG in the postwar period is basically suicide, and humanity's in enough trouble as it is. The military is probably not gonna stand idly by and watch a few dozen morons wander off into the desert to die. If you convince them to let you live out there, you're still dependent on them for basically EVERYTHING, so you're not really forming a new government you just have a town mayor with delusions of grandeur. If you can't convince them, they'll just drag your arse back and send you to the shrink to find out why you're so determined to wander out into the wasteland to die. It's not like a village of survivalist wackjobs can defend themselves against even a single irate Zentradi in his pajamas, let alone a platoon with battle pods. There's a limit to the offensive potential of harsh language. Words can only cause emotional wounds, after all.

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 Post subject: Re: The EBSIS
Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:12 pm
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
Peacebringer wrote:
After the fall of the Zentraedi, there is so much Zentraedi-wreckage, that, why hasn't numerous smaller governments popped up, creating hybrids of Zentraedi-UN mecha?

Oh, there's a bunch of reasons.
  1. There aren't enough people.
    In Robotech's TV series, the surviving human populaton after the First Robotech War is less than 100,000 people. As noted in a previous post, you can literally fit the entire human population into a single football stadium with seats left over.
  2. Earth is a wasteland.
    After the First Robotech War, most of Earth is basically uninhabitable. The orbital bombardment wiped out Earth's surface, leaving a sterile desert of dust and impact craters. Areas of surviving vegitation are few, far between, and too sparse to live on sustainably. The oceans and water table are also heavily contaminated with the dust and debris from the bombardment, meaning the water isn't safe to drink either. Trying to go it alone means a slow death from starvation or a marginally faster one from dehydration, if the dust storms don't get you first.
  3. The de facto military government has a monopoly on manufacturing and the distribution of essential supplies.
    Of course, the biggest problem with trying to "go it alone" and create a new city-state or what have you is that rationing is still in effect even at the heart of the new government and the military has complete control over the distribution of little things like food, potable water, medical supplies, and weaponry. If you don't have access to food and clean water, you're going to die. You need the manufacturing capability to build tools, factories, and foundaries to build the essentials of civilization. There's no wood available on 99% of the planet, so you're either building with stone or salvaged metal. You need foundaries with specialized furnaces to recycle scrap metal into usable building materials or make metal tools hard enough to work stone. You need factories with a wide variety of specialized tools to create things like water purifcation and recycling systems, hydroponic or aeroponic farms, synthetic materials to make textiles and other essentials from. Never mind building robotechnology-based weapons. Without that infrastructure - the infrastructure the military has a monopoly on - you're not creating a breakaway state or new government... you're just a tribe of refugee survivalists squatting in the desert for no reason and to the benefit of literally nobody.
  4. Knowledge of, and proficiency with, advanced alien technologies is jealously guarded.
    Unlike in the original Macross, where the study and reverse engineering of advanced alien technologies was undertaken by a substantial international research organization and the advances from that research shared equally around the world and exploited by a huge number of industries who understood how these technologies worked... in Robotech, the knowledge of what makes robotechnology tick is the exclusive province of a double handful of the military's top (and top secret) scientists. Even they don't actually fully understand most of it. Your average civilian after the First Robotech War has about as much chance of being able to successfully salvage and re-engineer an alien war mech as you do... which is to say, "None whatsoever". Because so much about robotechnology is closely guarded military secrets, only that double handful of military scientists like Lang, Zand, Cochrane, etc. have the necessary education and skills to develop new robotechnology-based weapons... and they're living comfortably on the military's payroll.
  5. With the human species teetering on the brink of extinction, the military has no reason to tolerate the existence of a breakaway government.
    Seriously. Trying to break away from the UEG in the postwar period is basically suicide, and humanity's in enough trouble as it is. The military is probably not gonna stand idly by and watch a few dozen morons wander off into the desert to die. If you convince them to let you live out there, you're still dependent on them for basically EVERYTHING, so you're not really forming a new government you just have a town mayor with delusions of grandeur. If you can't convince them, they'll just drag your arse back and send you to the shrink to find out why you're so determined to wander out into the wasteland to die. It's not like a village of survivalist wackjobs can defend themselves against even a single irate Zentradi in his pajamas, let alone a platoon with battle pods. There's a limit to the offensive potential of harsh language. Words can only cause emotional wounds, after all.

If this is all true, and SK know his Robotech so I am going to assume it is, I am so glad Palladium changed it for the RPG as this sounds like the most boring place to try and run a game. Does that 100k include Zentraedi? How can that few people lead to what we see in Southern Cross and New Genertion/Invid Invasion especially when tens of thousands of humans and most Zentraedi leave for Tirol?

To me this is the Last Jedi problem. You want to drive up the stakes so widdle down the resistance to the people that can fit in the Millennium Falcon or the human population to what can fit into a stadium but then what? OK, everyone is dead now how are you going beat the bad guy.

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 Post subject: Re: The EBSIS
Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:44 pm
  

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In the RPG it's official that there were several independent polities that existed after the Macross Saga and that several of these were hostile to or engaged in war with the UEG during the 2010s and 2020s.

You can argue against this existing in the show (though I beleive there is enough evidence that we can comortably adjust the number of survivors to a number that ends in '-illions') but you can't argue against it existing the RPG because it's there in black and white.

We are left with the mystery as to where these nations were, what they were called, what form of government they had and what their capabilities were.

The only clues we have are that it took years for the UEG and ASC to suppress them and that a rebel faction in Russia apparently has active Valkyrie fighters available to it in the Shadow Chronicles era.

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 Post subject: Re: The EBSIS
Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:57 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
If this is all true, and SK know his Robotech so I am going to assume it is, I am so glad Palladium changed it for the RPG as this sounds like the most boring place to try and run a game.

Yup... that's why the official Robotech timeline has the period between the Macross Saga's end (2014) and Masters Saga's start (2029) as a nearly-blank space. Nothing of interest happened, or at least nothing canon. (Sentinels is on "broad strokes" continuity officially, so only the barest facts are there.)

Really, that's a problem with almost the entire Robotech timeline though. Outside of the events directly concerning the TV series protagonists, bugger all's going on in all three sagas. The Macross Saga establishes that the Zentradi leave Earth alone after the SDF-1 folds away in episode 3 and don't really bother it besides direct attacks on the SDF-1 until episode 27. All the actual conflict revolves around the SDF-1, so Earth is just sort of cooling its heels with 99.99% of the population completely unaware that there's a war with aliens going on until the bombardment starts. Outside of the antics of the ATAC 15th Squad, most of the story of the Masters Saga is just the Masters and Southern Cross forces staring each other down. The New Generation's the same way, with most of Earth being the "I just want to get on with my life" civilians who don't care about the Mars forces mission, and only Scott's band making any real headway because they almost literally tripped over an Invid Princess out in the middle of nowhere and it's only when Admiral Hunter's forces show up at the very end is there a chance for the mustered surviving ground forces to actually DO something.

As a whole, Robotech really isn't a RPG-friendly setting... that's why 1e and 2e both had to take a lot of (often poorly thought-out) liberties.



Warshield73 wrote:
Does that 100k include Zentraedi?

That's just the humans... it's more like 70k, but I rounded up.



Warshield73 wrote:
How can that few people lead to what we see in Southern Cross and New Genertion/Invid Invasion especially when tens of thousands of humans and most Zentraedi leave for Tirol?

So, that's actually an artificial problem caused by the fanmade stats for the New Generation stuff.

The planet Southern Cross was set on, Glorie, is a sparsely populated and mostly barren world that was coming out of a nuclear winter, so the only real issue the showrunners had was editing the extra moons out of the sky. The Southern Cross Army was accordingly also quite small, with the entire ATAC having only about 200-300 soldiers to its name (just 15 tank squads).

But those fan "researchers" massively overstated the sizes and crew complements of the UEEF ships and misrepresented their work as OSM to Harmony Gold, which leads to the mistaken impression of the UEEF being a very large organization. Remove those exaggerations and replace them with the animation-accurate numbers from the OSM and the UEEF is suddenly a much more plausible size with there being only about 6,000 soldiers in the entire force Scott arrived with at the start and barely 10,000 in the massed battle in RTSC.


Warshield73 wrote:
To me this is the Last Jedi problem. You want to drive up the stakes so widdle down the resistance to the people that can fit in the Millennium Falcon or the human population to what can fit into a stadium but then what? OK, everyone is dead now how are you going beat the bad guy.

... then the bad guy turns out to be one ineffectual old man in an ugly bathrobe who dies anticlimactically and everyone else is left to wonder why they even showed up. :lol:

Admittedly, Robotech's bad guys are a serial DE-escalation. The series started with the billions-strong clone army, then it took a massive step down to a flying nursing home for elderly mad scientists who don't have enough batteries for their doomsday devices, and then again to an occupation force so apathetic they forget to actually oppress anyone after they take over.

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