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Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:31 pm
  

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Knight

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jaymz wrote:
They bomb the shield gate.

... and accomplish literally nothing by doing so. In what sense did that bombing run "work"?



In my opinion, the single biggest flaw in the [TLEAD/Beta] design is the lack of focus in its offensive capabilities.

With its air-to-air missiles, its gravity-fed bomb bay, and its air-to-ground rotary cannon primary armament, it's trying to cover too many roles and ends up doing a mediocre job in all of them instead of excelling in any of them. Its [Armo-Bomber/Fighter] mode isn't agile enough to dogfight, but it can only engage enemies with its internally-carried air-to-air missiles at visual ranges. That means it can only fight effectively against other aircraft if it puts itself in unnecessary danger and fights at a clear disadvantage. Lacking the agility to dogfight effectively means it shouldn't be getting anywhere near visual range of enemy fighters. Ideally, if it were to be used in an air-to-air role you would want it to operate similarly to the proposed B-1R Lancer: standing off at a significant distance from the actual aerial combat zone and engaging enemies with long range, high initial velocity, active homing missiles using data links from fighters closer to the action to designate targets. Its bomb bay is gravity-fed and deploys large quantities (72) of extremely small unguided incendiary munitions. That makes it extremely vulnerable because it needs to sustain stable, level flight at low speeds and low altitudes to ensure that it can reliably land its bombs on target and to ensure that its (almost certainly impact-triggered) munitions don't jam in the gravity feeds or detonate prematurely due to jostling. Its body is an aerodynamic nightmare and its wing area is extremely low, meaning it's going to be extremely unstable at low altitudes and it's going to have a high stall speed, making the necessary flight profile to deploy those bombs dangerous in the extreme. It needs a more aerodynamically sound design with a greater wing area and high rigidity to sustain highly stable low altitude flight, something like a very large cropped delta wing similar to the Avro Vulcan's. Its three air-to-ground rotary cannons aren't much use against aircraft due to their inability to traverse and their limited sustain, but they've got an additional problem in that they also require a low airspeed and stable trajectory to direct fire onto a ground target at range. Its swept wings are a major disadvantage there because they're a good deal less stable at low speeds and altitudes. It also lacks any high-precision guided air-to-ground munitions that could allow it to strike ground targets at longer ranges or from higher altitudes.

If it focused on any one of those roles it could probably be OK-ish... but because it's incorporating features for all three it presents a scattered set of capabilities that aren't really suited for any of them. Its close air support and bomber capabilities are mostly a waste anyway, since the [Inbit/Invid] generally don't fight on the ground unless confronted with a threat specifically confined to the ground like infantry and they're not likely to be put off by incendiary rounds.

Ideally, the fix would be to lose the bomb bay and rotary cannons completely, extend the main wing out into a large tailless delta, and turn it into a long-range missile platform like what was planned for the B-1R.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:49 pm
  

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Thus my caveat about if not being massively shielded.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:08 am
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Yeah... nevermind that a bomb is a free fall device so putting it in a tube facing foward, above your fighter shall only result in heartache. Maybe in space they fly toward the target then open the bay and hit reverse thrusters so the bombs exit the bay and travel toward their target at max speed.

Yeah... a gravity bomb deployment system above your aircraft's fuselage is asking for trouble.

One of the major design flaws in the TLEAD/Beta is that its bomb bay's deployment mechanism is a gravity feed system supported by rollers inside the chutes. It won't function at all in zero-g, and what the bombs were in the OSM wouldn't do any good in space either. Napalm is not a particularly effective weapon in a vacuum.



Zer0 Kay wrote:
I was about to say that was dumb but a non powered explosive would be much harder to detect than a missile

Eh... it depends on how close you're deploying the bombs from. Obviously a bomber flying right above an enemy ship is going to get noticed pretty quickly.

Star Wars: the Last Jedi has a very drawn out scene showing precisely why bombers in space are a bad idea.

Obviously the "bombing run" in space would have to be done from a great distance and would actually still be better done by missiles that would just cut off their engines far away and drop the rocket stage to discard any potential heat signature... only problem with that is that the the first stage would still travel along with the warhead unless they had smaller engines to move them into a different vector.

Most of the scenes in the new trilogy sucked. And bombers in space don't suck. The suck trilogies bombers suck. The Y-Wing worked fine any space bomber doesn't carry bombs it carries torpedoes.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:33 am
  

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What if there was a way to retrofit the existing Beta with technology to give the craft better aerodynamics? I've already mentioned some ideas previously, but I don't think anyone has mentioned this in the recent discussion (or in the past AFAIK): Inflatable Structures!

The idea is not as crazy as it sounds. The basic aspect has been around for decades in the aerospace industry (these are just a few):
-Goodyear GA-466, GA-468 (1950s)
-NASA's I2000 research drone (2000s, just the wings), an inflatable re-entry shield
-Bigalow Aerospace (inflatable module currently on the ISS)
-Northrop Grumman has proposed an inflatable drone for a mission to Venus (this was a few years ago, it wasn't selected)

The main questions IMHO aren't is it durable enough, but relate more to inflation and deflation time for the Beta to minimize impact on the Beta's transformation time. Inflation time on the I2000 shows that it could be done in under 1second. Deflation time and control so it deflates back into its storage slot would be an unknown.

So what I propose for the Beta (using appropriately durable materials) is to primarily deploy from the Wings and Docking Beam (secondary locations are also possible) inflatable structures shaped to improve the aerodynamics of the vehicle. The wings could then be "inflated" to a more classic delta wing or cranked arrow shape, with the docking beam creating a more "classic" nose design for the Beta. The inflatable nose then would block the center-line EU-14 station when deployed, all of them would retract/deflate for Guardian and Battloid mode operation and could be cut-loose if damaged (or for other purposes).


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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:54 am
  

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
Obviously the "bombing run" in space would have to be done from a great distance and would actually still be better done by missiles that would just cut off their engines far away and drop the rocket stage to discard any potential heat signature... only problem with that is that the the first stage would still travel along with the warhead unless they had smaller engines to move them into a different vector.

TBH, pretty much any munitions that are launched/dropped from a fighter are going to be hotter than the background temperature of space and therefore show up pretty cleanly on an infrared imaging sensor unless you're attacking with the sun at your back. It's better by far to just use the missiles, because there's a greater probability to hit with guided munitions than non.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:31 pm
  

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Well it took me a little while but I did put together a reasonable write up for the Beta. Besides adding MRMs to the upper pods, moving up the damage dice and giving the ion cannon barrels each a damage profile similar to the EP-20 on the Logan I just made some tweaks in the sensors when it's swapping the missiles for the sensor pod.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:57 am
  

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Has anyone looked at streamlining the Beta airframe to simply elongate and add more powerful engines? After that, I would also look for a way to make the Beta into an unpiloted, transformable, "Cyclone" armor for the Alpha that could be discarded after use or maintained for the additional armor. The thought would be that the Armored Valkyrie couldn't be in Jet Mode and keep the full armor, so the Robotech Research guys developed the "Beta" as Full Armor that could become a rocket booster with additional weapons for use by the Alpha when in Jet Mode or it would transform around the Alpha as the Cyclone transforms around the rider. Get rid of the bomb bay and replace the location with a mission-specific bay that could house a personnel bay for troop deployment of two to three unarmored infantry scouts or additional missile launchers. The biggest trick to this would be making the airframe flow better from the Alpha airframe. I would suggest streamlining the Alpha as well, since it's a lot more blocky than a modern tactical fight needs to be.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:02 am
  

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Beatmeclever wrote:
Has anyone looked at streamlining the Beta airframe to simply elongate and add more powerful engines?

Yes, the problem is that this is very difficult to do with a transforming platform and would essentially require a totally new design.

Beatmecleaver wrote:
After that, I would also look for a way to make the Beta into an unpiloted, transformable, "Cyclone" armor for the Alpha that could be discarded after use or maintained for the additional armor. The thought would be that the Armored Valkyrie couldn't be in Jet Mode and keep the full armor, so the Robotech Research guys developed the "Beta" as Full Armor that could become a rocket booster with additional weapons for use by the Alpha when in Jet Mode or it would transform around the Alpha as the Cyclone transforms around the rider.

The Beta already is essentially used by the UEEF (in canon depictions) as an unpiloted add-on for the Alpha, converting it to a full drone unit should be doable.

Turning it into some type of "Cyclone" escque armor for the Alpha would end up being a completely new design and not the Beta Fighter.

Beatmecleaver wrote:
Get rid of the bomb bay and replace the location with a mission-specific bay that could house a personnel bay for troop deployment of two to three unarmored infantry scouts or additional missile launchers. The biggest trick to this would be making the airframe flow better from the Alpha airframe.

As a troop bay I do not think it would be the best use of the space or for the mecha. Adapting it for use as a missile launcher has been discussed in the past, and at least one official source (AotSC) suggests the bay is more flexible than it was shown in terms of what it can deploy calling it a cargo bay.

Beatmecleaver wrote:
I would suggest streamlining the Alpha as well, since it's a lot more blocky than a modern tactical fight needs to be.

The Alpha could benifit from a new wing and adding canards. Streamlining will only get one so far, most of the Alpha's issues come down to Range either in terms of its missiles or itself (to address this the Beta was created). Both have been discussed in the past to death in terms of giving the Alpha better Range in both these areas.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:41 am
  

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Such a redesign of the alpha, much like the beta suggestions above, would essentially be a whole new design....

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:13 pm
  

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Beatmeclever wrote:
Has anyone looked at streamlining the Beta airframe to simply elongate and add more powerful engines? After that, I would also look for a way to make the Beta into an unpiloted, transformable, "Cyclone" armor for the Alpha that could be discarded after use or maintained for the additional armor. The thought would be that the Armored Valkyrie couldn't be in Jet Mode and keep the full armor, so the Robotech Research guys developed the "Beta" as Full Armor that could become a rocket booster with additional weapons for use by the Alpha when in Jet Mode or it would transform around the Alpha as the Cyclone transforms around the rider. [...] The biggest trick to this would be making the airframe flow better from the Alpha airframe. I would suggest streamlining the Alpha as well, since it's a lot more blocky than a modern tactical fight needs to be.

As noted in quite a few previous posts in this topic, changes like this are essentially tantamount to just throwing the Beta and/or Alpha away and designing a new fighter (or fighters) from scratch.

Making the Beta an unmanned aircraft wouldn't work in the timeframe it was developed in, since the technology for even autonomous operation of an unmanned VF wasn't available until ~2044 and may not be viable for complex operation.

Streamlining the Alpha or Beta won't accomplish much, as both designs are aerodynamically problematic at best and their biggest issue is that the designs themselves are so fundamentally unsuited for their operating profile that aerodynamics are the least of their problems.

Spoiler:
While HG's creative staff have informally acknowledged that the Alpha and Beta are inferior aircraft poorly suited to their role, it finally got directly acknowledged in-universe in the Titan Comics Robotech series when Dana Sterling from a previous iteration of the story's time loop made such a compelling argument to the UEDF brass about the Alpha's fundamental flaws that they dropped the program entirely in favor of completing the YF-4.




Beatmeclever wrote:
Get rid of the bomb bay and replace the location with a mission-specific bay that could house a personnel bay for troop deployment of two to three unarmored infantry scouts or additional missile launchers.

That would be difficult, given that the bay itself is situated more or less directly behind the cockpit with most of the mecha's actual body between it and the bottom of the mecha.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 8:04 am
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Beatmecleaver wrote:
Get rid of the bomb bay and replace the location with a mission-specific bay that could house a personnel bay for troop deployment of two to three unarmored infantry scouts or additional missile launchers. The biggest trick to this would be making the airframe flow better from the Alpha airframe.

As a troop bay I do not think it would be the best use of the space or for the mecha. Adapting it for use as a missile launcher has been discussed in the past, and at least one official source (AotSC) suggests the bay is more flexible than it was shown in terms of what it can deploy calling it a cargo bay.

An after thought...

What if instead of replacing the Bomb Bay with a missile launcher setup, we replaced them with "pop-out" guns either fixed forward for strafing runs or out the side for AC-130 gunship-esque flight profile either one of which could be based on the intake guns or some other system? This could be combined with removing the intake guns in the legs to allow better air flow to the engine (which itself could be upgraded to maximize the improvement).

One thing both the Alpha and Beta series could benefit from is improved avionics to improve their effectiveness.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 8:26 am
  

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Turning a supersonic fighter-bomber into a gunship is a little counter intuitive to me. Gunships orbit an area at low speeds, while fighter bombers are built to zip through.

The bomb bay can certainly be revised to make it more efficient. Some sort of rotary system similar to that found on many modern bombers would allow the carriage of a wider variety of ordnance and speed up reloading times if the 'cylinders' were quickly replaceable. This is sympathetic with retaining the fighter-bomber nature of the Beta.

Avionics upgrades are almost always also an option.


The big thing with improving the Beta as an aircraft is that it has the primary mission of carrying the Alpha on its nose and that will always require significant compromises.

If we abandon that mission and envision a stand aloneheavy veritech fighter-bomber then we can make somethign much better - but at that point we aren't building a Beta.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:20 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
What if instead of replacing the Bomb Bay with a missile launcher setup, we replaced them with "pop-out" guns either fixed forward for strafing runs or out the side for AC-130 gunship-esque flight profile either one of which could be based on the intake guns or some other system?

I'm not sure it'd necessarily be value-added, since the TLEAD/Beta's weaponry is mainly set up for strafing-type attacks. Circling gunship-style would keep it from leveraging most of its weaponry. Its actual design - regardless of any subsequent mischaracterization by RT - is that of an Attack aircraft configured to provide Close Air Support of ground troops. That's why it has three fixed-forward 30mm rotary cannons and unguided bombs meant to be dropped from low altitudes while strafing enemy targets.

One thing it really could benefit from is replacing the "laser bomb launcher", which IIRC Robotech presents as a sensor mast, with a compact AA gun turret for defense since it's a wallowing skypig with all the airborne grace and agility of a refrigerator.



ShadowLogan wrote:
This could be combined with removing the intake guns in the legs to allow better air flow to the engine (which itself could be upgraded to maximize the improvement).

... the description of the 30mm cannons as "intake guns" threw me for a second, because that's not where the intakes are on the actual design. Someone goofed writing the book. The intakes are those drum shapes on either side of the cockpit that mate with the Legioss/Alpha's sub-engine nozzles when it's docked.



ShadowLogan wrote:
One thing both the Alpha and Beta series could benefit from is improved avionics to improve their effectiveness.

I'm not sure that would really do anything to address the fundamental defects in the designs either... there's never been any indication their avionics aren't sufficient for their role, their problem is that they're just terribly designed for the kind of fights they're fighting.





Jefffar wrote:
The bomb bay can certainly be revised to make it more efficient. Some sort of rotary system similar to that found on many modern bombers would allow the carriage of a wider variety of ordnance and speed up reloading times if the 'cylinders' were quickly replaceable. This is sympathetic with retaining the fighter-bomber nature of the Beta.

The problem with that, and most other ideas involving replacing the bomb bay, is that the design doesn't offer anywhere to put that. The bomb bay is up in the upper fuselage behind the cockpit, more or less dead center in the mecha's "torso", sitting atop the articulations for the mecha's "pelvis" and sub engine system. There's no direct opening from the bomb bay to the bottom of the aircraft, the bombs have to roll down a chute that's a good 5-6 feet long around the outside of the mecha's pelvis to reach the actual drop hatch.

http://www.gearsonline.net/series/mospe ... ead-23.gif

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:10 pm
  

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Jeffar wrote:
Turning a supersonic fighter-bomber into a gunship is a little counter intuitive to me. Gunships orbit an area at low speeds, while fighter bombers are built to zip through.

The bomb bay can certainly be revised to make it more efficient. Some sort of rotary system similar to that found on many modern bombers would allow the carriage of a wider variety of ordnance and speed up reloading times if the 'cylinders' were quickly replaceable. This is sympathetic with retaining the fighter-bomber nature of the Beta.

Well the Beta already comes with x5 triple gun setups, so it already has the mystique of being a "gunship" or "gunfighter" more than a fighter-bomber IMHO.

I'm not sure you can do much to make the bay more efficient, they already have that magazine/clip setup.

Seto wrote:
I'm not sure it'd necessarily be value-added, since the TLEAD/Beta's weaponry is mainly set up for strafing-type attacks. Circling gunship-style would keep it from leveraging most of its weaponry. Its actual design - regardless of any subsequent mischaracterization by RT - is that of an Attack aircraft configured to provide Close Air Support of ground troops. That's why it has three fixed-forward 30mm rotary cannons and unguided bombs meant to be dropped from low altitudes while strafing enemy targets.

I'm not necessarily sold on the side facing gun setup, I only present it as an option given the size of the hatches. Personally I'd stick to the forward facing mount, in which case a forward mount could add to the cannon fire from a strafing run.

I would think there would be room left over to boot, which means you might be able to squeeze in some type of auxiliary power supply to improve the power going to the energy guns (increase range/stopping power).

Seto wrote:
One thing it really could benefit from is replacing the "laser bomb launcher",

Well it was replaced in RT from the OSM to being the sensor mast (unless you want to rehash the optional 2x3 missile launcher mentioned in AotSC). I'm not sure you even need to swap the LBL/Sensor thing for an AA gun, you could probably achieve the same effect by modifications to the "wrist guns" to have F/G mode firing arcs.

Seto wrote:
the description of the 30mm cannons as "intake guns" threw me for a second, because that's not where the intakes are on the actual design

According to RT.com's Infopedia (and AotSC, the 2E PB RPG has different wording but essentially the same concept) for the Beta "3 x 3-barreled 80mm pulse beam cannons, one mounted in the center intake, available in fighter and guardian modes, and the other two mounted on the leg intakes, available only in fighter mode"

Seto wrote:
I'm not sure that would really do anything to address the fundamental defects in the designs either... there's never been any indication their avionics aren't sufficient for their role, their problem is that they're just terribly designed for the kind of fights they're fighting.

I agree to a point that there is no way to know if the avionics aren't sufficient for the role, but given the apparent tactics used by Alpha pilots either the avionics aren't up to the task or the pilots need better training to fully utilize their mecha.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:57 pm
  

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the only real things i'd change would be:
standardize the SRM launchers.. having both chest launchers with a fold down hatch and a pop up set of shoulder launchers seems like a waste of space. especially since the chest launchers would be unusable when docked. i'd instead switch to just the pop up systems, and give them expanded ammo capacity.
remove the small passenger space from the bomb bay area to expand the bomb bay and its hatches, and fit more ordnancei nto the bay. it isn't really possible to fit larger hatches (remember the hatches are on either side of the docking connector) but you could easily double your capacity if you used a powrred feed system rather than gravity feed. and you could probably expand the hatches in length allowing the carriage of medium sized munitions or even full MRMs.
remove the leg guns, since they aren't really usable in battloid and guardian mode, and can't be fired when docked either. i'd leave the centerline gun though. in the place of the leg guns, i'd mount additional chaff/flare systems or basic ECM systems. (i know, useless against the invid, but would be more useful vs zents and tirolians, as well as haydonites and so on.)
replace the fold up sensor system with a modular mount allowing it to equip the sensor array, a missile array, an AWACS type radar system, or a selection of direct fire weapons. (including possibly some light turreted gun mounts)

i'd also redesign the cockpit so that it is part of the fuselage and not a folding thing. (reducing a weak point, and making it possible to make the craft a 2 seater)

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 9:33 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Well it was replaced in RT from the OSM to being the sensor mast (unless you want to rehash the optional 2x3 missile launcher mentioned in AotSC). I'm not sure you even need to swap the LBL/Sensor thing for an AA gun, you could probably achieve the same effect by modifications to the "wrist guns" to have F/G mode firing arcs.

Eh... in my assessment, one of the bigger tactical deficiencies in the TLEAD/Beta design and the Legioss+TLEAD combiner is that the aircraft lacks maneuverability to the point that it's rather vulnerable when it's committing to a strafing or bombing run. It has no way to deal with enemies that can outmaneuver it, so a weapon that can fire off-axis, especially protecting the craft's blind spot above and behind it, would be a serious asset.



ShadowLogan wrote:
According to RT.com's Infopedia (and AotSC, the 2E PB RPG has different wording but essentially the same concept) for the Beta "3 x 3-barreled 80mm pulse beam cannons, one mounted in the center intake, available in fighter and guardian modes, and the other two mounted on the leg intakes, available only in fighter mode"

I know I harp on this a lot, but I am often baffled by just how poorly researched Robotech material can be. I know the guys who wrote the uRRG had the line art that clearly shows that that isn't an intake...



ShadowLogan wrote:
I agree to a point that there is no way to know if the avionics aren't sufficient for the role, but given the apparent tactics used by Alpha pilots either the avionics aren't up to the task or the pilots need better training to fully utilize their mecha.

To be frank, the Legioss/Alpha's fundamental deficiencies as a fighter aren't something training or better avionics will remedy.

There's no operational versatility with almost exclusively fixed armament, and since it's all also entirely focused on within-visual-range engagements they are just MASSIVELY vulnerable to any foe who has numerical superiority. Its design was poor even in the original MOSPEADA, but in Robotech where the designers absolutely had experience fighting while massively outnumbered having designed a craft with no alternative but to fight a numerically-superior enemy on the enemy's terms where they can leverage those numbers to their best advantage is completely insane.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:48 am
  

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Seto wrote:
Eh... in my assessment, one of the bigger tactical deficiencies in the TLEAD/Beta design and the Legioss+TLEAD combiner is that the aircraft lacks maneuverability to the point that it's rather vulnerable when it's committing to a strafing or bombing run. It has no way to deal with enemies that can outmaneuver it, so a weapon that can fire off-axis, especially protecting the craft's blind spot above and behind it, would be a serious asset.

I agree, that is why I suggest modifying the wrist guns as they already have a rear facing firing arc due to their existing position, modifying them to have the ability to traverse with a wider arc (and fire) in F/G modes would seem to address the issue. Regardless of the use of the wrist guns or the LBL/Sensor, either is going to have to contend with blind spots.

Seto wrote:
I know I harp on this a lot, but I am often baffled by just how poorly researched Robotech material can be. I know the guys who wrote the uRRG had the line art that clearly shows that that isn't an intake...

I can not comment on the whys of the uRRG or HG directly, but honestly in the animation they look like they where placed in the air-intakes and the location you identify appears to be a solid object.

Even if we assume the leg guns aren't intakes, removing the guns and replacing them with intakes would seem to be a good idea as you've practically doubled the intake area for the 3 engines.

Seto wrote:
To be frank, the Legioss/Alpha's fundamental deficiencies as a fighter aren't something training or better avionics will remedy.

That is debatable really. How many times did Scott/Stig empty the MM-60 for 1 or 2 enemies? I get the idea of multiple missile launch to improve the odds (the VF-1 typically fired 4 missiles for 1-2 pods), but the entire payload would point toward either poor training or avionics issues given we see that these mecha are shown to be just as susceptible to smaller volleys on par with what the VF-1 uses. There is also the pilot in NG#1 that flies a green combo, and gets taken down by a melee Booster-Scout mecha after firing his missiles at near point blank range (this supports both points improved avionics could have targeted the oncoming enemy and training might have saved him), heck better avionics that would have allowed targeting of multiple enemies (either all at once or in rapid succession) could have gone a long way in improving their displayed effectiveness. There is also Scott's comment to Lancer in RT that the Alpha pilots in Ep84 seem a bit rusty (lack of UEEF Training?).

Weapon versatility of the Alpha/Legioss can certainly be addressed and has been discussed previously (I don't have anything new to add).


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:22 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
That is debatable really. How many times did Scott/Stig empty the MM-60 for 1 or 2 enemies? I get the idea of multiple missile launch to improve the odds (the VF-1 typically fired 4 missiles for 1-2 pods), but the entire payload would point toward either poor training or avionics issues given we see that these mecha are shown to be just as susceptible to smaller volleys on par with what the VF-1 uses. There is also the pilot in NG#1 that flies a green combo, and gets taken down by a melee Booster-Scout mecha after firing his missiles at near point blank range (this supports both points improved avionics could have targeted the oncoming enemy and training might have saved him), heck better avionics that would have allowed targeting of multiple enemies (either all at once or in rapid succession) could have gone a long way in improving their displayed effectiveness. There is also Scott's comment to Lancer in RT that the Alpha pilots in Ep84 seem a bit rusty (lack of UEEF Training?).

Weapon versatility of the Alpha/Legioss can certainly be addressed and has been discussed previously (I don't have anything new to add).



In Shadow Chronicles we frequently see missile volleys scoring multiple kills which indicates the ability simultaneously track multiple targets and guide multiple munitions to them is possible with the existing avionics. We also see a firing sequence beign programemd into a Beta mounted Synchro cannon to engage multiple enemy targets agaisnt an enemy that used heavy ECM no less. So the avionics are up to the task.

As for why Scott continuously overkills on 1 to 2 targets, possibly the psychological strain of what he went through during his arrival to earth may have overcome certain aspects of his training.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 1:33 pm
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
the only real things i'd change would be:
standardize the SRM launchers.. having both chest launchers with a fold down hatch and a pop up set of shoulder launchers seems like a waste of space. especially since the chest launchers would be unusable when docked. i'd instead switch to just the pop up systems, and give them expanded ammo capacity.

So... more or less just go back to the OSM spec, then? The chest launchers are an animation error.



glitterboy2098 wrote:
remove the leg guns, since they aren't really usable in battloid and guardian mode, and can't be fired when docked either. i'd leave the centerline gun though. in the place of the leg guns, i'd mount additional chaff/flare systems or basic ECM systems. (i know, useless against the invid, but would be more useful vs zents and tirolians, as well as haydonites and so on.)

I'm not sure either of those changes would be value-added, since neither the Robotech Masters nor the Invid use missiles and neither of them appear to use conventional radar for detection purposes.





ShadowLogan wrote:
I agree, that is why I suggest modifying the wrist guns as they already have a rear facing firing arc due to their existing position, modifying them to have the ability to traverse with a wider arc (and fire) in F/G modes would seem to address the issue. Regardless of the use of the wrist guns or the LBL/Sensor, either is going to have to contend with blind spots.

When I talk about a dorsal gun to address a blind spot, I'm not referring to blind spots in general but to a very specific blind spot common to most military aircraft that is directly above and behind the aircraft's centerline... the wrist guns are in the wrong place to address it, and their line of sight to it is blocked by the engine nozzles. A centerline gun would be better suited to address it, especially a turret-based one.



ShadowLogan wrote:
I can not comment on the whys of the uRRG or HG directly, but honestly in the animation they look like they where placed in the air-intakes and the location you identify appears to be a solid object.

It isn't particularly well-drawn, but that's only to be expected given that it's a late and ill-considered addition to the series at the behest of Gakken.

(That said, it's not like intakes have to be a large and unobstructed opening either... there are engine designs where certain types of obstructions are desirable in order to increase intake air pressure in turbofans and ramjets, like intake ramps and cones found on aircraft like the SR-71. OSM-ly, the VF-1 uses its inlet covers for the same purpose at higher airspeeds.)



ShadowLogan wrote:
Even if we assume the leg guns aren't intakes, removing the guns and replacing them with intakes would seem to be a good idea as you've practically doubled the intake area for the 3 engines.

Multiple sets of intakes can cause issues for laminar airflow into the engine... and they're pretty poorly placed for such a purpose.



ShadowLogan wrote:
That is debatable really. How many times did Scott/Stig empty the MM-60 for 1 or 2 enemies? I get the idea of multiple missile launch to improve the odds (the VF-1 typically fired 4 missiles for 1-2 pods), but the entire payload would point toward either poor training or avionics issues given we see that these mecha are shown to be just as susceptible to smaller volleys on par with what the VF-1 uses.

So... just puttin' this out there... but have you considered that that may not be an avionics or training issue, but rather compensation for the comparatively low stopping power of the smaller and lighter missiles used by the Legioss/Alpha? On many occasions in the series, they seem to need at least 3-4 direct hits to down a single Invit/Invid and the missiles themselves also seem to miss fairly often... suggesting that they're not quite up to the same level of maneuverability, possibly due to their more limited propellant capacity.



ShadowLogan wrote:
There is also the pilot in NG#1 that flies a green combo, and gets taken down by a melee Booster-Scout mecha after firing his missiles at near point blank range (this supports both points improved avionics could have targeted the oncoming enemy and training might have saved him), heck better avionics that would have allowed targeting of multiple enemies (either all at once or in rapid succession) could have gone a long way in improving their displayed effectiveness. There is also Scott's comment to Lancer in RT that the Alpha pilots in Ep84 seem a bit rusty (lack of UEEF Training?).

I'm not sure that's an issue of avionics or training so much as it is the fundamental defects of the design... putting the pilots at a massive numerical disadvantage by forcing them to fight the Invit/Invid at close range.



Jefffar wrote:
In Shadow Chronicles we frequently see missile volleys scoring multiple kills which indicates the ability simultaneously track multiple targets and guide multiple munitions to them is possible with the existing avionics. We also see a firing sequence beign programemd into a Beta mounted Synchro cannon to engage multiple enemy targets agaisnt an enemy that used heavy ECM no less. So the avionics are up to the task.

On the Shadow and Super Shadow types, sure... though that's an artifact of Robotech's creative staff trying to Macross-ize the MOSPEADA designs.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:47 pm
  

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@Jeffar
TSC depiction of events do not always lineup with the original 85EP animation, I'm focusing more on the depiction in the 85EP rather than TSC. And as Seto mentioned those are the Shadow versions (which IIRC never fire a missile in the 85EP animation).

Seto wrote:
When I talk about a dorsal gun to address a blind spot, I'm not referring to blind spots in general but to a very specific blind spot common to most military aircraft that is directly above and behind the aircraft's centerline... the wrist guns are in the wrong place to address it, and their line of sight to it is blocked by the engine nozzles. A centerline gun would be better suited to address it, especially a turret-based one.

A Centerline has some advantages I will give you that, but it can still encounter those same blind spots. The wrist gun stations (I see them converted to turrets instead of fixed) may not be ideal I will admit, but they come with the ability to engage multiple targets simultaneously, they create a larger protective bubble, and they already have the wiring in place to handle the power requirements.

Seto wrote:
It isn't particularly well-drawn, but that's only to be expected given that it's a late and ill-considered addition to the series at the behest of Gakken.

I realize that, but such depictions also exists in the line art.

Seto wrote:
Multiple sets of intakes can cause issues for laminar airflow into the engine... and they're pretty poorly placed for such a purpose.

Well I was thinking the intakes would be dedicated for a given engine, the leg for their respective engine with the two body intakes going to the 3rd engine. I also realize that some engines have "obstructions" on purpose, but the cannons may not be optimal for the job.

Seto wrote:
I'm not sure that's an issue of avionics or training so much as it is the fundamental defects of the design... putting the pilots at a massive numerical disadvantage by forcing them to fight the Invit/Invid at close range

Which begs the question of why the UEEF chose to engage the enemy in a manner that put them at a severe disadvantage. They certainly had time and the resources to develop new and/or upgraded hardware after being cut off from Earth in RT (unless the timeline gets radically changed).

Seto wrote:
So... just puttin' this out there... but have you considered that that may not be an avionics or training issue, but rather compensation for the comparatively low stopping power of the smaller and lighter missiles used by the Legioss/Alpha? On many occasions in the series, they seem to need at least 3-4 direct hits to down a single Invit/Invid and the missiles themselves also seem to miss fairly often... suggesting that they're not quite up to the same level of maneuverability, possibly due to their more limited propellant capacity.

Invid mecha size (with exception of the late model Enforcer/Battloid/VT) might present difficulties with targeting if the sensors where not expected to handle such small targets**, requiring better avionics. Their smaller size might also make the larger UEEF mecha look less maneuverable (Cyclones being smaller than almost all Invid mecha do display superior maneuverability in battloid mode compared to them).

If we go down the route suggested, there are added complications that for RT (not GCM AFAIK) the Invid Mecha are apparently more maneuverable than suggested (per Scott, sorry I don't have the ep/timecode/quote handy) AND the fact the Alpha was not designed to fight the Invid**.

As for the missile performance/effectiveness. I guess the question could be asked if the Alpha/Beta sized missiles could be upgraded in any/all of the 3 areas to address those issues: guidance/avionics, warhead, propulsion. Improvements in any of those areas would likely require some upgrade to the existing avionics of the launching platform (it does in real world). All of which are certainly possible given enough time if we look at real world systems as precedent. Propulsion likely requires switching to an "exotic" fuel source (and RT has a few of them) but is theoretically possible.

Spoiler:
At least for the RPG we know that even though an Alpha SRM is much smaller than a VF-1's (based on the art/animation), but mechanically they have the same performance in terms of range/power, which can only be possible if the Alpha capable SRMs are using more energetic materials.


**Canonically the UEEF was not equipping itself to fight the Invid when the Alpha was in testing (2022) as contact with them wasn't until later with the Regent presumably at Tirol (no canon date, but given Leonard in 2029-30 didn't know who they are that would push for a no earlier than 2029-30 date). The Alpha would then have to be designed to fight the Zentreadi and/or the Masters (who they lacked data on given the UEDF:ASC in 2029 couldn't identify them, so basing it on Zentreadi capabilities seems reasonable, and we know the UEDF:ASC was prepared for another round with the Zentreadi).


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:07 pm
  

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Alpha was initially developed in the late 2010's, actually (as glimpsed in the "from the stars" and detailed in its behind the scenes 'sourcebook' issue.). though it would apparently undergo a lot of changes from that initial model (which had much more VF-1 like styling and lacked the mass missile launchers) but seems to have been in the form we recognize (at least outwardly) by the time the SDF-3 left (given the drone alphas in new gen, and the secondary canon of the sentinels film)

given the time it began development, its intended opponents would have been primarily the zentreadi, particularly their Battlepods. which would explain the extensive missile armament. Pods are slow and not terribly agile in space (slightly better on the ground) and are fairly fragile, but are deployed in massive numbers even in space battles.
the invid would not have been high on their minds.. we know the zents fought them (from dialog in the "love and war' comic) but it seems likely that this was not a common occurrence, and the zents were not a reliable source of intel on the nature and performance of invid equipment. (possibly this is because of the regent/regis split causing confusion or just that invid capabilities changed rapidly between encounters given their 'controlled evolution' capabilities.)
it seems likely that the zents attempted to inform earth about Bioroids, but i suspect the zents just hadn't seen those in action very often.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:52 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
A Centerline has some advantages I will give you that, but it can still encounter those same blind spots. The wrist gun stations (I see them converted to turrets instead of fixed) may not be ideal I will admit, but they come with the ability to engage multiple targets simultaneously, they create a larger protective bubble, and they already have the wiring in place to handle the power requirements.

The main problem I see with the wrist gun idea is that they have a blocked line of sight to the primary blind spot on the aircraft thanks to the engine nozzles.

That and we don't know how large those gun barrels actually are, so the system may be too large to convert into a turret without compromising its firepower.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Well I was thinking the intakes would be dedicated for a given engine, the leg for their respective engine with the two body intakes going to the 3rd engine. I also realize that some engines have "obstructions" on purpose, but the cannons may not be optimal for the job.

Definitely not, which is why those spots aren't actually intakes at all on the original design... what's behind them in the "thigh" behind the inspection panel is the 30mm rotary cannon's drive motor, its ammo feed, and the drum magazine that holds the bullets.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Which begs the question of why the UEEF chose to engage the enemy in a manner that put them at a severe disadvantage. They certainly had time and the resources to develop new and/or upgraded hardware after being cut off from Earth in RT (unless the timeline gets radically changed).

Oh, undeniably... why the United Earth Forces selected an aircraft that is, by any rational standard, far inferior in performance to what they were already using as their next main fighter and the primary craft for their preemptive strike against the Robotech Masters is one of those awkward adaptation-induced questions that's lingered like a particularly eggy fart these last thirty years.

Unfortunately, the only Robotech work that attempted to address it was the cancelled Titan Comics Robotech Reboot series. The writers of that comic leaned heavily into the idea that it was selected in the various iterations of the time loop that produced all the different animated Robotech stories due to it being the pet project of one or more members of the UEDF brass who'd come to (incorrectly) believe quantity was more important than quality. Kind of a similar situation to the F-35, the selection process for which was heavily tainted by personal financial stakes in its developer and would ultimately become an expensive mistake for the military's supply chain operations.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Invid mecha size (with exception of the late model Enforcer/Battloid/VT) might present difficulties with targeting if the sensors where not expected to handle such small targets**, requiring better avionics. Their smaller size might also make the larger UEEF mecha look less maneuverable (Cyclones being smaller than almost all Invid mecha do display superior maneuverability in battloid mode compared to them).

Possibly, but we're never presented with any circumstance where pilots are shown having difficulty acquiring Invit/Inbit as targets... the issue seems to be more towards the direction of the missiles the Legioss/Alpha is equipped with being less agile than the ones seen in Macross/The Macross Saga. We never quite see that Itano Circus behavior from them, they tend to mainly travel in a straight line.



ShadowLogan wrote:
As for the missile performance/effectiveness. I guess the question could be asked if the Alpha/Beta sized missiles could be upgraded in any/all of the 3 areas to address those issues: guidance/avionics, warhead, propulsion. Improvements in any of those areas would likely require some upgrade to the existing avionics of the launching platform (it does in real world). All of which are certainly possible given enough time if we look at real world systems as precedent. Propulsion likely requires switching to an "exotic" fuel source (and RT has a few of them) but is theoretically possible.

The one area where I could see this applying would be in missile guidance itself.

In Macross, and therefore in Robotech's Macross Saga, the missiles used by the VF-1 and other mecha are "fire and forget" missiles using guidance that doesn't depend on the firing aircraft once fired. Macross sources describe this as a hybrid guidance system combining active radar homing, passive infrared homing, and an autonomous optical homing system. The way the missiles in MOSPEADA, and therefore Robotech's New Generation, are presented is more consistent with semi-active radar homing where the missile has a passive receiver that's following reflected energy from a guide beam the firing aircraft is projecting at the target and the missile will not track the target if the target moves out of the guide beam (be it a laser or a radar). RTSC presents it as using active radar homing along more Macross-like lines.

One could infer from this that the UEEF was unable to miniaturize the guidance systems of the earlier missiles for the Alpha until c.2044 and so the Alpha's missiles are less capable of tracking a highly agile target and the Alpha as a whole is less capable of engaging multiple targets at once.

However, I find that argument uncompelling since the UEEF was developing the Alpha for its preemptive strike against Tirol, where they were absolutely expecting to be outnumbered so it would make little sense to develop an aircraft that could only engage one foe at a time.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Spoiler:
At least for the RPG we know that even though an Alpha SRM is much smaller than a VF-1's (based on the art/animation), but mechanically they have the same performance in terms of range/power, which can only be possible if the Alpha capable SRMs are using more energetic materials.

There is that, yes... but the RPG has a lot of arbitrary stats that don't line up with the content of the show, and the RPG is also making a conscious effort to buff the mecha of later generations to that players will actually USE them and not just carry the Macross Saga mecha forward ad infinitum.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 9:41 am
  

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@glitterboy2098
Yes the Alpha is a 2010s design, but it was still in testing in 2022 (as seen in Sentinels OVA) which would allow for evolving changes to be implemented.

Seto wrote:
Oh, undeniably... why the United Earth Forces selected an aircraft that is, by any rational standard, far inferior in performance to what they were already using as their next main fighter and the primary craft for their preemptive strike against the Robotech Masters is one of those awkward adaptation-induced questions that's lingered like a particularly eggy fart these last thirty years.

Further compounded is no real attempt to address those issues within the design itself. You know I've often said the Cyclone Bay, at least theoretically, if repurposed into a propellant tank would go a long way to addressing the Alpha's range issue. Addressing the maneuverability issue is also possible theoretically in several ways (probably easier for the Alpha than the Beta). Addressing the BVR capacity is possible (as seen with Toy/Models), even if it limits modes.

Seto wrote:
Possibly, but we're never presented with any circumstance where pilots are shown having difficulty acquiring Invit/Inbit as targets... the issue seems to be more towards the direction of the missiles the Legioss/Alpha is equipped with being less agile than the ones seen in Macross/The Macross Saga. We never quite see that Itano Circus behavior from them, they tend to mainly travel in a straight line.

While that is true, the closer the Alpha/Beta would get the easier the targeting system would have with a smaller object. Then again the straight line course could be an indication about the status of the guidance/tracking on the missiles, a guided missile with no guidance will still fly straight. Perhaps the Invid have evolved some what effective ECM for the UEEF missile guidance system (we know the Invid/Inbit jammed communications link, giving them some level of ECM capability).

Seto wrote:
However, I find that argument uncompelling since the UEEF was developing the Alpha for its preemptive strike against Tirol, where they were absolutely expecting to be outnumbered so it would make little sense to develop an aircraft that could only engage one foe at a time.

Well we know the Alpha/Legioss can engage multiple Invid/Inbit targets ("Hired Gun"/"Arpeggio of a Killer") that are spread out in terms of formation, unlike when Scott/Stig empties the MM-60 for a tight group of 2. It's hard to say if we see something similar in "Invid Invasion"/"Shugeki no Pureryudo") when the combiners fire missiles into an approach formation.

I find the argument they couldn't fit a TMS-era type guidance system into UEEF-era mecha uncompelling. From a diameter standpoint of the various missiles being considered they should fit (RT.com Infopedia* gives the VF-1 a 150mm diameter missile in a 15x payload launcher, which would be the UUM-7 in the OSM correct). That really only leaves the length/vol of the missile to be considered. The OSM HMM-01 has a ~1:3.5 proportion ratio, the Alpha's MM-60 has a ~1:1.5 ratio, the Beta's 340mm I'm going to call a sphere for simplicity (and treat the others as a basic cylinder), for a volume comparison the Alpha's 190mm has ~87% the volume and the Beta's 340mm has ~222% the volume of the HMM-01. The Beta's 340mm should not be an issue. The Alpha comes pretty close, the question being is if that gap can be made up with advances in electronic miniaturization and more energetic materials used for propulsion/warhead (or they go with a penalty to these other areas).

*which gives different values than the contributing uRRG has for the diameter (of 20cm) and both have lengths (neither of which is used).

Seto wrote:
There is that, yes... but the RPG has a lot of arbitrary stats that don't line up with the content of the show, and the RPG is also making a conscious effort to buff the mecha of later generations to that players will actually USE them and not just carry the Macross Saga mecha forward ad infinitum.

Well it isn't like HG has attempted to quantify things like "short range" (and such) either in the mecha descriptions. The UEDF:ASC (and likely by extension the UEEF) was said to be ready for another round with the Zentreadi, so it would make sense their hardware was at least as capable as the TMS-era stuff.

The RPG also uses a pretty generic missile table between lines (2E RT one was introduced back in '96 for Rifts, and the 1E/M2 table was used prior to that, HU2E also used the 1E/M2 table but using SDC values) which could also explain it.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:43 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Further compounded is no real attempt to address those issues within the design itself. You know I've often said the Cyclone Bay, at least theoretically, if repurposed into a propellant tank would go a long way to addressing the Alpha's range issue. Addressing the maneuverability issue is also possible theoretically in several ways (probably easier for the Alpha than the Beta). Addressing the BVR capacity is possible (as seen with Toy/Models), even if it limits modes.

As has often been pointed out in this very thread, there are limits to what can be done before you're simply throwing the aircraft away and starting over.

(Mind you, the "first strike missiles" that were created for the toys and models in the 80's and were never in the series aren't BVR weapons either... they're just longer ranged than what the Legioss was equipped with by default.)



ShadowLogan wrote:
While that is true, the closer the Alpha/Beta would get the easier the targeting system would have with a smaller object. Then again the straight line course could be an indication about the status of the guidance/tracking on the missiles, a guided missile with no guidance will still fly straight. Perhaps the Invid have evolved some what effective ECM for the UEEF missile guidance system (we know the Invid/Inbit jammed communications link, giving them some level of ECM capability).

There is that, to a point... the Invit/Invid are not exactly small, and we're never shown anyone having difficulty locking onto one.

The series never mentions the Invit/Invid themselves having any kind of ECM capability. What we do get repeatedly is a depiction of the missiles used by the Mars forces that is more in line with them being semi-active radar or laser homing rather than active homing.



ShadowLogan wrote:
I find the argument they couldn't fit a TMS-era type guidance system into UEEF-era mecha uncompelling.

It's the only explanation I can see for the apparent regression in guidance technology.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Well it isn't like HG has attempted to quantify things like "short range" (and such) either in the mecha descriptions. The UEDF:ASC (and likely by extension the UEEF) was said to be ready for another round with the Zentreadi, so it would make sense their hardware was at least as capable as the TMS-era stuff.

The RPG also uses a pretty generic missile table between lines (2E RT one was introduced back in '96 for Rifts, and the 1E/M2 table was used prior to that, HU2E also used the 1E/M2 table but using SDC values) which could also explain it.

Harmony Gold is kind of flying blind there, since only one of the three OSMs bothered to offer quantitative assessments of missile performance.

The generic classifications used there are mainly derived from the RPG, which as we know genericizes things for simplicity's sake... which constitutes something of a buff to the Alpha by making those sixty missiles that would ordinary be considered a "mini-missile" at best as SRMs on par with the VF-1's.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 8:18 am
  

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Seto wrote:
As has often been pointed out in this very thread, there are limits to what can be done before you're simply throwing the aircraft away and starting over.

I agree there is going to be a limit to what can be done and the best results will come from a pure clean sheet design(s). In the long term the UEEF would be better served by replacing the Alpha and Beta with a clean sheet design(s), but in the near term they should still be looking for ways to improve their multi-role fighters (which is how they use them) to be better in areas they are lagging in until the clean sheet design(s) is ready and available in sufficient numbers.

Seto wrote:
There is that, to a point... the Invit/Invid are not exactly small, and we're never shown anyone having difficulty locking onto one.

But how often does anyone try and lock on at a significant range, most of the engagements are within visual range IINM in the NG arc.

I think the problem is that with the missiles we are looking for a single cause, and there might not be as it could be a host of factors that combine to create the problem.

Seto wrote:
The series never mentions the Invit/Invid themselves having any kind of ECM capability. What we do get repeatedly is a depiction of the missiles used by the Mars forces that is more in line with them being semi-active radar or laser homing rather than active homing.

It would be hard to see the Invid not developing EW/ECM from their encounters with the UEEF/humans after a decade of contact. They've adopted use of missiles (albeit in 2042-4 only on their new Battloid/Overlord mecha), turncoats (possible, though at this point its speculation), imitated the Veritech Fighter (Overlord in 2044), able to track radio signals to their source ("Metamorphosis"/"Trap Reggae") and even interrupt said communications ("Ghost Town/Old Solider's Poka"). Even their exposure to the Bio-Emulator (RT, forget the name in GCM) and its false signal in Ep80/20 might have repercussions (especially if this wasn't the first time encountering such a device, the Regis did come to the conclusion with an increasing probability that it was a trap, but Corg ignored her). We know the Invid/Inbit do attempt to recover technology (Syncro-platform in Ep83/23), which means they could be exposed to human versions of it inadvertently.

Seto wrote:
Harmony Gold is kind of flying blind there, since only one of the three OSMs bothered to offer quantitative assessments of missile performance.

I agree, but it's also an opportunity to start defining things on their own terms for their story universe so that it can be the "Macross-clone" they want it to be (and I don't see them doing that successfully without imitating defined technical background details as part of that, story and design are also important to that end). But I don't see them wanting to get that defined in the technical details with current leadership and stance.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:13 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
But how often does anyone try and lock on at a significant range, most of the engagements are within visual range IINM in the NG arc.

"Lock on" distance is going to depend on the capabilities of the ordnance's onboard and offboard guidance systems more than the capabilities of the vehicle's search radar because by definition a target lock is achieved when the missile's guidance systems have successfully acquired the target. There is no reason for a missile to have a guidance system with an effective range that exceeds the missile's maximum engagement range. That's why you only see pilots achieving target locks at short range... because the Alpha (and Beta) only have short-ranged weapons.



ShadowLogan wrote:
I think the problem is that with the missiles we are looking for a single cause, and there might not be as it could be a host of factors that combine to create the problem.

All told, there is a fairly good self-contained explanation in the inherent limitations of the depicted (semi-active) guidance system that requires no additional external justification.



ShadowLogan wrote:
It would be hard to see the Invid not developing EW/ECM from their encounters with the UEEF/humans after a decade of contact. They've adopted use of missiles (albeit in 2042-4 only on their new Battloid/Overlord mecha), turncoats (possible, though at this point its speculation), imitated the Veritech Fighter (Overlord in 2044), able to track radio signals to their source ("Metamorphosis"/"Trap Reggae") and even interrupt said communications ("Ghost Town/Old Solider's Poka").

The problem with that reasoning is threefold.

First, the Invit/Invid don't use what humanity would consider "conventional" methods of detection via electromagnetic waves like radar, lidar, or infrared. It's only after they evolve into humanoid form and become individually intelligent that they begin to imitate human technology. Prior to that point, they show no real interest in anything humanity has developed beyond determining whether or not it's a threat based on active power sources.

Second, it takes a fair amount of power - more than most combat aircraft have to spare - to attempt to jam military-grade search and target radar systems. That kind of power is normally the domain of dedicated electronic warfare craft. The Invit/Invid never evidence any kind of ECM capabilities on an individual basis, and even if you assume they're actually aware of things like radar they probably don't individually have enough power to jam guidance systems. Especially in the OSM, where the Invit mecha don't even have an internal power source and are powered externally by energy from the nearest hive.

Third, there's a really good reason why jamming isn't used as a countermeasure against missile attacks in the real world... it's because of a feature of radar-guided missiles called "Home on Jam". If a missile with that capability loses its own guide beam or the guide beam sent from the launching craft due to ECM noise jamming, which requires powerful transmitters and fairly short ranges, it'll home in on the ECM's source. Instead of defending against a missile attack, the craft broadcasting the ECM is effectively inviting one and making itself easier to hit. (In the Macross OSM, ECM is used against missiles, but it's active cancellation stealth rather than noise jamming, which requires even more power and precision but lacks the vulnerabilities of noise jamming.)



ShadowLogan wrote:
I agree, but it's also an opportunity to start defining things on their own terms for their story universe so that it can be the "Macross-clone" they want it to be (and I don't see them doing that successfully without imitating defined technical background details as part of that, story and design are also important to that end). But I don't see them wanting to get that defined in the technical details with current leadership and stance.

To be frank, I doubt they were even properly aware that the data existed at all... since they were mostly dependent on outside sources (fan volunteers and plagiarizing from fan sites) for their info.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2021 2:48 pm
  

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Seto wrote:
"Lock on" distance is going to depend on the capabilities of the ordnance's onboard and offboard guidance systems more than the capabilities of the vehicle's search radar because by definition a target lock is achieved when the missile's guidance systems have successfully acquired the target. There is no reason for a missile to have a guidance system with an effective range that exceeds the missile's maximum engagement range. That's why you only see pilots achieving target locks at short range... because the Alpha (and Beta) only have short-ranged weapons.

The question still stands though, how often do characters in the NG arc actually attempt to get a target lock for missiles in the Alpha or Beta that aren't almost point-blank range? (I can think of a few involving the Cyclone). Though I suspect that's a fair question for the other arcs to.

Seto wrote:
All told, there is a fairly good self-contained explanation in the inherent limitations of the depicted (semi-active) guidance system that requires no additional external justification.

I do not think so, we are talking about a complex situation with multiple variables to consider, like the inherent maneuverability of the missile in question, the guidance system, maneuverability of the target, any potential EW by the target, the influence of remote power beaming, etc. While I agree a simple explanation is the most probable, I don't think we can rule out that it could be a mix of variables.

Seto wrote:
First, the Invit/Invid don't use what humanity would consider "conventional" methods of detection via electromagnetic waves like radar, lidar, or infrared. It's only after they evolve into humanoid form and become individually intelligent that they begin to imitate human technology. Prior to that point, they show no real interest in anything humanity has developed beyond determining whether or not it's a threat based on active power sources.

As for interest, most of what we see on Earth during the NG saga is supposed to be established old designs, so the Invid might have already done their research and don't see a need for more on a given design in 2042-4 period. The only "new" technology they show interest in was the Syncro-Cannon when it appears, though not the Shadow Devices (suggesting they are familiar with them). Something else worth considering though is how long it takes the Invid/Inbit to develop new mecha (Scott did not recognize the Enforcer*, and we know their Battloid was new along with their Veritech)?

I agree they don't use conventional detection methods, but that in itself opens up the possibility they could use unconventional methods to (intentionally or unintentionally) jam/negate some forms of UEEF missile guidance or targeting systems. Which if its unconventional could be immune to the whole home-on-jam concept.

*on the rafts at night, which is odd because it was in the previous episode visible in the sandstorm outside their cave, and they seemed to be monitoring the Invid just out side the cave entrance. The unit itself might not be new technically in RT given it was used in RT2 footage, taking the role of something the Invid did not normally use.

Seto wrote:
To be frank, I doubt they were even properly aware that the data existed at all... since they were mostly dependent on outside sources (fan volunteers and plagiarizing from fan sites) for their info.

That would not surprise me in the least.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2021 9:28 pm
  

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Seto, you keep claimign that the adoption of the Alpha was stupid because it didn't have the performance of the VF-1.. but that may well have been the point. if the battlefield conditions and role changed, the required specifications change as well.
the F-16A Falcon replaced the F-104, F-105, and F-4. all aircraft that were larger and much faster than the Falcon.. but the Falcon could carry substantially heavier munitions loads and was substantially easier to make and pilot. its technology was more advanced than its predecessors, it just manifested it in a different perfomance because of the shift in tactical and operational thinking made those older types of craft obsolete.
the Alpha has a lot of parallels with the F-16 honestly, along with its fellow LWF program derivative the F-18. both were designed as part of a "high/low" mix, with a small number of heavier high performance fighters (like the F-15 and F-14) supplemented with a much larger number of smaller somewhat lower performance fighters meant to take up the slack operationally.
the Alpha was originally designed alongside the VF-5, which was a much larger high performance mecha.. but that project failed (and got turned into the condor batloid.) they then apparently switched to developing the VF-6, which also failed and got shelved. they seem to have stopgapped using the Conbat fighter, then got the VF-6 working as the VF/B-9 Beta, finally completing the intended high/low mix.

i think that your thinking is biased by the development of Valkyries in the original macross setting, where things are a fairly straightline progression with each generation being basically the same thing but faster, tougher, and more powerful, in a setting where tactical and operational needs never really change substantially.the VF-25 messiah is not much different role wise than the VF-11 or the VF-1, they just all represent incremental improvements in speed, armor, and firepower rather than the operational paradigm shifts like you get in robotech.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:55 am
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
The question still stands though, how often do characters in the NG arc actually attempt to get a target lock for missiles in the Alpha or Beta that aren't almost point-blank range? (I can think of a few involving the Cyclone). Though I suspect that's a fair question for the other arcs to.

Let's look at this from the other direction for a moment.

We know, from the original source material, that these are ultra-short ranged munitions that are only capable of operating at close visual ranges. Why are we assuming that it's even possible to acquire a target lock on an enemy that's farther away when the missiles are only good for a few hundred meters or a few kilometers at the absolute most?

There is, of course, also the point that early in the series the [Invit/Invid] have no ranged weaponry so they naturally seek to close the distance between themselves and their foes as rapidly as possible because they're literally forced to resort to fisticuffs.



ShadowLogan wrote:
I do not think so, we are talking about a complex situation with multiple variables to consider, like the inherent maneuverability of the missile in question, the guidance system, maneuverability of the target, any potential EW by the target, the influence of remote power beaming, etc. While I agree a simple explanation is the most probable, I don't think we can rule out that it could be a mix of variables.

I'd argue several of those aren't factors, since they don't actually come up in the series or source material.

Putting that aside, though, I'd argue that most of the evidence supports the semi-active radar guidance of the missiles. Particularly their unreliability against the small and highly-mobile [Invit/Invid], since SARH munitions depend on a radar system "painting" the target with a radar beam that the missile's passive radar receptors detect and follow the reflection of.



ShadowLogan wrote:
As for interest, most of what we see on Earth during the NG saga is supposed to be established old designs, so the Invid might have already done their research and don't see a need for more on a given design in 2042-4 period. [...]

"Old" is relative. The Alpha may be a 20+ year old aircraft from the UEEF's perspective, but in Robotech the Invid occupation force on Earth has almost certainly never seen them before. As they say, "if I haven't seen it, it's new to me". They weren't used by the 1st Earth Reclamation Force. So even though they've been in service for ~20 years by the time of the 2nd ERF's landing op, they're "new" to the Invid.

(This is Robotech working around the fact that the AFC-01 Legioss was a brand-new aircraft in 2083 for the 2nd Earth Recapture op in the original series and hadn't existed during the 1st descent operation in 2080.)



ShadowLogan wrote:
The only "new" technology they show interest in was the Syncro-Cannon when it appears, though not the Shadow Devices (suggesting they are familiar with them). Something else worth considering though is how long it takes the Invid/Inbit to develop new mecha (Scott did not recognize the Enforcer*, and we know their Battloid was new along with their Veritech)?

With retroactive continuity in effect, I think we can say with some certainty that their interest was due to that being Haydonite technology... something very much out of place on Earth and, given the fate of their original homeworld at the hands of the Haydonites, cause for considerable alarm.

Ignoring it, it could easily be argued that the reason for their interest at the time was motivated at least partly by their growing individual awareness as they evolved into humanoids.



ShadowLogan wrote:
I agree they don't use conventional detection methods, but that in itself opens up the possibility they could use unconventional methods to (intentionally or unintentionally) jam/negate some forms of UEEF missile guidance or targeting systems. Which if its unconventional could be immune to the whole home-on-jam concept.

Possible in theory, but there is no evidence or mention of such in any Robotech or MOSPEADA material.



ShadowLogan wrote:
That would not surprise me in the least.

Most Macross fans don't know that material exists, so I'd be prepared to bet on it. :wink:





glitterboy2098 wrote:
Seto, you keep claimign that the adoption of the Alpha was stupid because it didn't have the performance of the VF-1.. but that may well have been the point. if the battlefield conditions and role changed, the required specifications change as well.

This would be a fine argument if it weren't for the fact that Robotech's official materials posit the Alpha as a replacement for the VF-1 as a multirole strike fighter.

Mind you, the Alpha's deficiencies across the board were Harmony Gold's given reason for the "fusion retcon" that came in with the 2E Macross Saga sourcebook. HG's creative staff acknowledged that the Alpha was objectively inferior and that was the best they could come up with to establish that there was technological progression rather than regression. The Robotech comics also went with that view, with the Dana from the penultimate iteration of the time loop talking the UEDF out of even developing the Alpha because of its deficiencies as a fighter and the fundamental flaws in its entire strategic outlook.



glitterboy2098 wrote:
i think that your thinking is biased by the development of Valkyries in the original macross setting, where things are a fairly straightline progression with each generation being basically the same thing but faster, tougher, and more powerful, in a setting where tactical and operational needs never really change substantially.the VF-25 messiah is not much different role wise than the VF-11 or the VF-1, they just all represent incremental improvements in speed, armor, and firepower rather than the operational paradigm shifts like you get in robotech.

I'd prefer to avoid derailing the thread with a divergence into discussing the evolution of Variable Fighters in Macross's setting, but I can say for a fact that this assertion you've made is false. The evolution of VFs in Macross has some pretty significant shakeups in operational requirements between generations and even internal to a single generation. We can make a separate thread to talk about that in more detail if you wish.

The issue here is more to do with Robotech trying to rewrite an aircraft that is, for all practical intents and purposes, an attack plane built for close air support into being a multirole strike fighter like the VF-1. It's only natural that something like an A-10A or F-117A wouldn't shine as a dogfighter... that's not what it's designed for.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 1:11 pm
  

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Except the f-16 as well as the f/a-18 from what I recall were more of a look for cheaper alternative notvso much doctrine driven, particularly since the f-15 was the actual successor chosen initially.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:10 pm
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
Seto, you keep claimign that the adoption of the Alpha was stupid because it didn't have the performance of the VF-1.. but that may well have been the point. if the battlefield conditions and role changed, the required specifications change as well.

The Alpha seems specifically designed for transatmospheric assault, which was of course its purpose in GCM. And even if it's aerodynamically inferior to the Valkyrie, it's still superior to Invid mecha. This aligns with the history presented in the RPG, in which the Alpha was built in limited numbers prior to the SDF-3's launch, but didn't become ubiquitous until around the Third Robotech War.
After all, the Alpha isn't designed to beat the Valkyrie, it's designed to beat the Invid better than the Valkyrie.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:32 pm
  

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jaymz wrote:
Except the f-16 as well as the f/a-18 from what I recall were more of a look for cheaper alternative notvso much doctrine driven, particularly since the f-15 was the actual successor chosen initially.

Yep... both the F-16 and F/A-18 were products of the Lightweight Fighter Program that sought to develop a less expensive alternative to the F-15. The YF-16 won out and became a lightweight fighter to supplement the F-15 and a subsequent Navy program to find a cheaper alternative to the F-14 revived the YF-17 as the F/A-18.

I suppose in that sense they're a good-ish parallel for the Alpha, since the Genia prototype that became the Alpha was also presented as a low-cost alternative to a more expensive and capable fighter in the official Robotech setting. Though in that case it seems like they might've cut too deep while wielding the knife called cost-savings.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:02 pm
  

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Seto wrote:
We know, from the original source material, that these are ultra-short ranged munitions that are only capable of operating at close visual ranges. Why are we assuming that it's even possible to acquire a target lock on an enemy that's farther away when the missiles are only good for a few hundred meters or a few kilometers at the absolute most?

If we go with a few KM, that would put them in the range of the RPG's SRM (8km/4.8km/1.6km/0.8km). Still is it not a better tactical choice to engage your enemy at range than to get into fisticuffs? Given the top speed of the Legioss, there really isn't any reason the Legioss would have to get into fisticuff range, it can literally out run any Invid Mecha @ sea level (the only thing that might be an issue is the Booster Scout/Armored in space or the late addition of the Overlord). Especially if you are dealing with a numerically superior foe who prefers to get in close, it makes sense to thin out the horde before engaging them then. It also makes sense that Fighter mode is a poor choice to engage in said fisticuff (something at least one "green shirt" did in Ep60/NG#1).

Seto wrote:
I'd argue several of those aren't factors, since they don't actually come up in the series or source material.

I think in this avenue I would argue that the OSM and RT are likely to have different explanations due to the differing technological background progressions between the two. With Robotech we have to factor in possible influences the various arcs have on each other, even if HG wants to put in a tech back slide as an easy out. From a story perspective it might also be worth considering that there wasn't much to discuss about it given the focus of the show and we don't get much in the way of "training" where they might discuss limitations of a given weapon system.

Seto wrote:
"Old" is relative. The Alpha may be a 20+ year old aircraft from the UEEF's perspective, but in Robotech the Invid occupation force on Earth has almost certainly never seen them before. As they say, "if I haven't seen it, it's new to me". They weren't used by the 1st Earth Reclamation Force. So even though they've been in service for ~20 years by the time of the 2nd ERF's landing op, they're "new" to the Invid.

I agree "Old" is relative. While the UEEF did not appear to use them in the 1stERF, there are several points to consider:
-the Invid Regent and any communication between those two factions (I only consider it due to the Regent's PA in Prelude looks a lot like the Regis's Overlord VT), the Regent has been dealing with the UEEF for how long (its also possible that the Regis even had UEEF contact before upping and leaving for the cool green pastures of Earth)
-Alphas are used in the evacuation during the Invasion, L&W comic (Issue #1, first page spread with Dana in CVR-3 with a Garfish unloading a VHT_2, an Alpha in the bay above it and more flying above/behind it). So the mecha was present in some numbers on Earth when the Invid arrived
-Col. Wolfe appears to be an accomplished Alpha pilot when he borrows Scott's if he's giving him pointers. Now we can't say for sure Alphas formed part of Wolfe's unit, but it is certainly a possibility
-possibility for small scale UEEF skirmishes with the Regis between 2031 and 2042-4 that did not fall under the 1st ERF heading (I'm thinking the UEEF would send small units in for reconnaissance, like with Sue Gram's unit in Ep83/NG23 not technically an invasion/reclamation action spread out during this period)

Seto wrote:
With retroactive continuity in effect, I think we can say with some certainty that their interest was due to that being Haydonite technology... something very much out of place on Earth and, given the fate of their original homeworld at the hands of the Haydonites, cause for considerable alarm.

Ignoring it, it could easily be argued that the reason for their interest at the time was motivated at least partly by their growing individual awareness as they evolved into humanoids.

I agree, but you'd think the Invid would also want to acquire Shadow Technology equipped Veritechs to examine (who knows maybe they already have some/enough), not just the Syncro-cannon (apparently the only one in the unit, though technically in the OSM it's just a scaled up version of the DL's gunpod). If they are looking for Haydonite "finger prints", you'd think they would want as many examples as they could claim.

Seto wrote:
Possible in theory, but there is no evidence or mention of such in any Robotech or MOSPEADA material.

I agree its only a theory at this point. The only evidence we have the Invid/Inbit even engaged in any type of EW is the jamming of the communications link between the Garfish and the UEEF sender in Ep78/NG#18. But if you can disrupt Radio Communication, then you can disrupt Radar systems as they both operate in the Radio part of the Electro-magnetic spectrum (and maybe those broadcast towers are the jamming source and not the respective mecha).

jaymz wrote:
Except the f-16 as well as the f/a-18 from what I recall were more of a look for cheaper alternative notvso much doctrine driven, particularly since the f-15 was the actual successor chosen initially.

The ATF selection in April of 1991 went with the YF-22 due to cost over the superior YF-23. Cost IMHO is always a factor.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:05 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
If we go with a few KM, that would put them in the range of the RPG's SRM (8km/4.8km/1.6km/0.8km).

On the low end of that range, yeah... where it overlaps heavily with "mini-missiles".


ShadowLogan wrote:
Still is it not a better tactical choice to engage your enemy at range than to get into fisticuffs? Given the top speed of the Legioss, there really isn't any reason the Legioss would have to get into fisticuff range, it can literally out run any Invid Mecha @ sea level (the only thing that might be an issue is the Booster Scout/Armored in space or the late addition of the Overlord). Especially if you are dealing with a numerically superior foe who prefers to get in close, it makes sense to thin out the horde before engaging them then. It also makes sense that Fighter mode is a poor choice to engage in said fisticuff (something at least one "green shirt" did in Ep60/NG#1).

It is... but with such short-ranged weaponry at its disposal, the Alpha has a very short window to actually do so if the enemy is closing with them.

Assuming the Legioss/Alpha is stationary and the Invit/Invid mecha is closing on it at 1/2 power (340kph per the RPG), the human pilot has a hair under 17 seconds to acquire a target, lock onto that target, fire, and evade the impending collision once the enemy enters the engagement range for that 1.6km-range missile... and that's an extremely favorable scenario to the Legioss/Alpha pilot. The more likely outcome is that they're closing at greater speeds... let's say military power for Battloid flight in the Alpha (75% of 312kph or 234kph) and the Invit/Invid is coming at full speed intent on a suicide attack. That window just shrank to 6.3 seconds. Bear in mind, this doesn't account for any kind of reaction times on the part of the pilot and is still a very generous scenario to the pilot of the Legioss/Alpha.

(In RPG terms, that's just enough time for a Lv.4 Veritech pilot w/ appropriate MECT to take just two melee actions... and the RPG doesn't have any real consideration for the subject of combat against multiple foes.)

For the sake of comparison and fairness, let's assume the same relative speeds as in the last example above but with some of the shorter-ranged Macross OSM missiles commonly used by the VF-1 during the First Space War. These ranges fall between SRMs and MRMs on Palladium's generic table. The GC-01 micro-missile, for instance, has an effective range of 12km. So, the time from the edges of the engagement envelope at those speeds is 47 seconds... more than three melees, in RPG terms. Take it up to the shortest-ranged variant of the AMM-1 Arrow missile (nominally a MRM) which has a 50km engagement range and that time spikes to 3 minutes 17 seconds (over 13 melees).

That's what I'm getting at with respect to the effect the Alpha's limited armament has on overall survivability.

Six seconds gives the Legioss/Alpha pilot enough time to score one, maybe two kills on an approaching Invit/Invid swarm before they're literally on top of him. Now consider that one Invit/Invid Sheldo carries 480 Iigaa/Scouts where the standard Ikazuchi-type ship carries just 144 fighters. In favorable conditions, the Mars forces pilots are outnumbered at least 3:1 and fighting in fighters which if they're lucky can engage one or two enemies from the limits of their weapons range before being overwhelmed.

By not including any provision for longer-ranged munitions, the overall survivability of the Legioss/Alpha was in the toilet from the start considering it was ALWAYS intended to be fighting against some numerically-superior foe.



ShadowLogan wrote:
I agree "Old" is relative. While the UEEF did not appear to use them in the 1stERF, there are several points to consider:
-the Invid Regent and any communication between those two factions (I only consider it due to the Regent's PA in Prelude looks a lot like the Regis's Overlord VT), the Regent has been dealing with the UEEF for how long (its also possible that the Regis even had UEEF contact before upping and leaving for the cool green pastures of Earth)

There is nothing, AFAIK, to indicate the Invid Regess and Regent had any kind of contact before, during, or after that period. IIRC, weren't they on the outs and not speaking to each other at all in older material? Something to do with the Regent not caring at all for her infatuation with Zor and evolution? The Regent's mecha in prelude is definitely a concerning plot hole, but then he may have gotten the data from Edwards in some manner as well.

Of course, this also assumes the Invit/Invid were in any way interested in human technology prior to evolving into a humanoid form. In the original, they weren't at all interested in humanity except in a strictly biological sense.



ShadowLogan wrote:
-possibility for small scale UEEF skirmishes with the Regis between 2031 and 2042-4 that did not fall under the 1st ERF heading (I'm thinking the UEEF would send small units in for reconnaissance, like with Sue Gram's unit in Ep83/NG23 not technically an invasion/reclamation action spread out during this period)

There's no mention of any such skirmishes, and the series generally treats Earth's surface as a point of no return prior to the arrival of the 3rd ERF.



ShadowLogan wrote:
I agree, but you'd think the Invid would also want to acquire Shadow Technology equipped Veritechs to examine (who knows maybe they already have some/enough), not just the Syncro-cannon (apparently the only one in the unit, though technically in the OSM it's just a scaled up version of the DL's gunpod). If they are looking for Haydonite "finger prints", you'd think they would want as many examples as they could claim.

I'm not so sure they would... the Invid Regess seemed to consider shadow technology itself to be an abomination, a literal sign that humanity had lost the plot and jumped off the slippery slope. They may be familiar with shadow technology already from their previous encounter with the Haydonites. The Regess certainly had no trouble identifying it on sight.



ShadowLogan wrote:
I agree its only a theory at this point. The only evidence we have the Invid/Inbit even engaged in any type of EW is the jamming of the communications link between the Garfish and the UEEF sender in Ep78/NG#18. But if you can disrupt Radio Communication, then you can disrupt Radar systems as they both operate in the Radio part of the Electro-magnetic spectrum (and maybe those broadcast towers are the jamming source and not the respective mecha).

It's been a while since I watched the Robotech version... the interference was attributed to damage the radio had sustained in the original story.



ShadowLogan wrote:
The ATF selection in April of 1991 went with the YF-22 due to cost over the superior YF-23. Cost IMHO is always a factor.

It's always a factor, but the difference is in HOW MUCH of a factor.

For designs like the F-16, F/A-18, or Alpha, cost reduction was a primary consideration... specifically, finding an alternative that was less expensive than the previously decided-upon course of action (the F-15, F-14, and YF-4 respectively).

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:27 am
  

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Palladin

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Seto wrote:
There is nothing, AFAIK, to indicate the Invid Regess and Regent had any kind of contact before, during, or after that period. IIRC, weren't they on the outs and not speaking to each other at all in older material? Something to do with the Regent not caring at all for her infatuation with Zor and evolution? The Regent's mecha in prelude is definitely a concerning plot hole, but then he may have gotten the data from Edwards in some manner as well.

The Plothole is the only reason I considered this, I don't see how Edwards could have acquired the design given the Infopedia article (sorry I never played Invasion and haven't watched a youtube playthrough).

IIRC in Sentinels they aren't on speaking terms, using (lower caste) intermediaries. There really isn't a reason they couldn't still be using intermediaries before Edwards overthrow of the Regent's faction.

Seto wrote:
There's no mention of any such skirmishes, and the series generally treats Earth's surface as a point of no return prior to the arrival of the 3rd ERF.

I agree there are no mention of small skirmishes, but we know the UEEF engaged in small scale operations with Shadow Technology in 2044 (Ep83, TSC's debated to death Alpha flight). If the 3ERF engaged in such actions, then its possible that the 1ERF and 2ERF also did so as a prelude to their operations. Plus the UEEF would need to perform reconnaissance if they are to properly plan future actions and to keep tabs on the Invid during the 13 year occupation.

Seto wrote:
It is... but with such short-ranged weaponry at its disposal, the Alpha has a very short window to actually do so if the enemy is closing with them...

But it depends on how "short-range" the weaponry actually is. In the RPG I do have a expanded data version of the missile table that includes flight time (OT: if you calculate flight time for maximum range for both sets of units, they don't match in all cases) and speed per second. So I do have an idea of how fast we are talking from maximum range and closing.

I also crunched some numbers using 1E RAW matchup* with the Alpha and Invid Armored Scout (which is ~3.4x faster than in 2E, but the damage variables are a wash). If we assume a Stationary Alpha and the A-Scout is moving at maximum speed (or they close at a combined speed equal to this value for 2E), successful strike each time and average damage for a volley of 2 missiles, then the Alpha can shoot down 7 A-Scouts with its SRMs before entering A-Scout gun range, +2 more before it can reach melee range. This assumes that for each destroyed A-Scout, a replacement starts at the same distance the destroyed A-Scout would start the next melee action (if not this can alter things). The use of a Booster scout version drops it to 3 before gun-range (+1 before melee).

Now the "real" values might be closer to PB Mini-Missile Ranges as you suggest, but in the RPG at least if we go by RAW they are SRM which changes things considerably. At Mini Missile Ranges, the 1E Alpha would score 2-3 kills. In 2E the Alpha could close to 1mile fire, then dash back out and rinse and repeat due to its superior speed and never have to worry about melee (unless surrounded), but in 1E it could not.

*
Spoiler:
I had the 1E numbers handy due to a side project I've been working on on-and-off for the past 2 months.


Seto wrote:
I'm not so sure they would... the Invid Regess seemed to consider shadow technology itself to be an abomination, a literal sign that humanity had lost the plot and jumped off the slippery slope. They may be familiar with shadow technology already from their previous encounter with the Haydonites. The Regess certainly had no trouble identifying it on sight.

I think it is a fair question that the Regess would ask: Are these examples of Shadow Technology I'm seeing products of Haydonite involvement or just Human technological evolution? In order to do that she would have to examine said examples (destroyed mecha might require more than one mecha to examine to get a better picture than a pristine captured one).

Seto wrote:
It's been a while since I watched the Robotech version... the interference was attributed to damage the radio had sustained in the original story.

If we want to be technical in RT the source of the interference is never cited. The only thing ever cited as wrong with the long range com. system is the transmitter nothing about the receiver, though the short range transmitter works completely (as evidence in the battle). I watched the episode again last night just to be sure.

Jamming/Interference is not discussed, but its clear they where having reception issues as the signal seemed to be breaking up. Source unknown. It is speculation on my part that it is the Broadcast Towers (Scott's immediate target suggesting the UEEF long range com could be restored if the nearby tower is taken out), and I've freely admitted the jam/interference may or may not be intentional.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:22 pm
  

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Knight

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ShadowLogan wrote:
IIRC in Sentinels they aren't on speaking terms, using (lower caste) intermediaries. There really isn't a reason they couldn't still be using intermediaries before Edwards overthrow of the Regent's faction.

Considering that in those old materials the Regess openly disapproved of the Regent's warmongering ways, I doubt she'd have sent him a new weapon either...



ShadowLogan wrote:
But it depends on how "short-range" the weaponry actually is.

It does, but even if we assume the absolute longest range that would be considered "within visual range" under ideal low-altitude conditions is 4.8km, that means the grace period for any engagement under even the most ideal conditions remains under 51 seconds. That's basically the "First Strike" missiles created for the toys that were never used in the series proper. The regular missiles used on the Legioss/Alpha top out well below that, seemingly in the 1-2km range at best. Most realistic scenarios are in the low single digits.



ShadowLogan wrote:
I also crunched some numbers using 1E RAW matchup* with the Alpha and Invid Armored Scout (which is ~3.4x faster than in 2E, but the damage variables are a wash). [...]

You know as well as I that Palladium's damage numbers are effectively arbitrary and have no actual connection to the weapon's stated firepower in official materials.

I feel your math may not be a proper representation either, given that it's not possible to lock on with or engage with the missiles until the enemy actually enters their range... that very short range.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Now the "real" values might be closer to PB Mini-Missile Ranges as you suggest, but in the RPG at least if we go by RAW they are SRM which changes things considerably. At Mini Missile Ranges, the 1E Alpha would score 2-3 kills.

Which is more consistent with the animation, which is what we were discussing in terms of the deficiencies of the Beta and Alpha and how to improve them.



ShadowLogan wrote:
In 2E the Alpha could close to 1mile fire, then dash back out and rinse and repeat due to its superior speed and never have to worry about melee (unless surrounded), but in 1E it could not.

In a strictly theoretical sense, yes. Bear in mind, though, that that's not as viable in a realistic scenario given the various matters of inertia and so on that Palladium doesn't cover mechanically and that it also renders the Legioss/Alpha useless in one of its main operating roles as an escort for troop landers and supply ships making planetfall. You're not going to be able to reliably protect an objective in those conditions when your only effective engagement strategy is to fire one or two shots and then run away for a bit.



ShadowLogan wrote:
I think it is a fair question that the Regess would ask: Are these examples of Shadow Technology I'm seeing products of Haydonite involvement or just Human technological evolution? In order to do that she would have to examine said examples (destroyed mecha might require more than one mecha to examine to get a better picture than a pristine captured one).

She seemed to be able to identify the shadow fighters and neutron-s missiles as shadow technology at a glance... though she does have supernatural perceptive abilities, allegedly.

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:29 pm
  

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ESalter wrote:
The Alpha seems specifically designed for transatmospheric assault, which was of course its purpose in GCM.

It would perhaps be more accurate to describe it as specifically designed for planetary assault, as it actually lacks true transatmospheric capability.



ESalter wrote:
And even if it's aerodynamically inferior to the Valkyrie, it's still superior to Invid mecha.

On an individual basis, yes... the problem that ShadowLogan and I have been discussing involves the implications the Alpha's much more limited engagement range has on its overall survivability given that the Invid more than make up the difference in capability with sheer weight of numbers and complete indifference to casualties. One on one, the Alpha will mop the floor with most any mecha the Invid field... but an Alpha pilot's practically never going to be fighting them one on one. They'll be fighting that Invid and his 479 best mates that came up on a carrier together.



ESalter wrote:
This aligns with the history presented in the RPG, in which the Alpha was built in limited numbers prior to the SDF-3's launch, but didn't become ubiquitous until around the Third Robotech War.

Which doesn't quite align with the official setting, which had presented the Alpha as the main fighter of the UEEF for its 20+ year mission in deep space.



ESalter wrote:
After all, the Alpha isn't designed to beat the Valkyrie, it's designed to beat the Invid better than the Valkyrie.

Of course, the reason for my and ShadowLogan's protracted discussion - and to a certain extent, this entire thread - is that that conclusion doesn't fit the facts even in the RPG.

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 11:13 am
  

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Palladin

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Seto wrote:
Considering that in those old materials the Regess openly disapproved of the Regent's warmongering ways, I doubt she'd have sent him a new weapon either...

It's a plot hole, internally it seems most likely that: A. they are/where officially talking on some level (doubtful), B. The Regent had an "agent(s)" w/n the Regess faction relaying information (doubtful), C. The Invid Hive Mind aspect, D. Coincidence.

Seto wrote:
It does, but even if we assume the absolute longest range that would be considered "within visual range" under ideal low-altitude conditions is 4.8km, that means the grace period for any engagement under even the most ideal conditions remains under 51 seconds. That's basically the "First Strike" missiles created for the toys that were never used in the series proper. The regular missiles used on the Legioss/Alpha top out well below that, seemingly in the 1-2km range at best. Most realistic scenarios are in the low single digits.

NG#1/Ep61 does have the Alpha firing missiles at targets in the void of space (apparently) that are not visible during the initial phase of the battle. Which means space is pushing the engagement window out beyond 4.8km. It might be that, against Invid at least, the missiles are more effective at the 1-2km range which is why pilots hold off (actually aside from main characters, missile use is nearly absent in terms of animated depicted use in the 85EP/OSM by the Alpha/Beta with instances that IINM can be counted on one-hand for no-names, guest character Wolfe being an apparent exception and of course later depictions like TSC).

Seto wrote:
You know as well as I that Palladium's damage numbers are effectively arbitrary and have no actual connection to the weapon's stated firepower in official materials.

I feel your math may not be a proper representation either, given that it's not possible to lock on with or engage with the missiles until the enemy actually enters their range... that very short range.

Said numbers should be viewed as applying to the Palladium Version(s), not canon RT. The math involved took some assumptions with the Palladium "Engine" that are unlikely (some % should miss, I was also assuming every attack was a simultaneous to avoid having to worry about defensive actions). The Missiles where not fired until their maximum effective range.

Seto wrote:
Which is more consistent with the animation, which is what we were discussing in terms of the deficiencies of the Beta and Alpha and how to improve them.

Well I guess the questions then is can the UEEF:
-produce a missile sized to fit their launchers with better performance (given the old UEDF HMM-01 I think the answer is yes)
-how much margin do the 5 internal launchers*** have for each missile in terms of size (or put another way how much bigger/smaller can they actually go and not cause issues)
-can the mecha be modified to carry larger ordnance externally (yes, but it likely comes with mode restriction in a lot of cases* but is already present in the Beta and Logan so would not be technically out of place for RT)
-can the mecha be modified to carry larger ordnance internally (yes**)

*The Beta is pretty maxed out externally, the only place being the Synchro-Cannon port on later models (which would block the OSM LBL) I would think. The Alpha certainly has room to grow, but it will take the mode hits if it uses wing stations and possibly the intakes. They could theoretically use the SSF-A's Fastpack stations as hardpoints (which means they don't interfere w/transformation, we don't know how long knowledge of these locations could be used as such), they could also create missile pods useable at the gunpod stations. The model kits in addition to the intake mounted missiles, also could include a 3rd module that was essentially a upper arm module that could transform through w/o issue (what if we took this module and made a stretched version for larger missiles, possibly ejecting out the top instead of forward, you might even be able to have a version optimized to replace the Beta's main role for the Alpha I would think).

**Internally the Beta could swap the sensor mast for the 1E RPG's missile launcher, it could also convert the bomb bay space into a missile launcher (likely SRM at best), it could more easily convert the two shoulder systems to fire different missiles.

Internally the Alpha is very dense (I'd favor using internal volume for propellant capacity if I could), but you could develop new missiles to slot into multiple MM-60 locations (reduced payload, but increased performance): the upper-arm/leg stations are a bit dubious IMHO, a fold out launcher that is 190mm x 760mm for a total payload of 10 (40 normally), the forearms could theoretically be made to each hold one 190mm x 950mm missile in place of the 5 existing missiles per launcher (total payload 4, normally 20) easily enough (depending on clearances one might go slightly bigger), either missile has more than x2 (~2.3 and ~2.9) the volume of the HMM-01 treating them all as basic cylinders. Theoretically speaking several of the MM-60 stations could also have their covers (upperarm/shoulder, F-mode's leg station) altered to allow a slightly longer missile to be carried in the normal station. If the Shadow Drone modifications done to the basic Alpha frame are an indication, the area used for the (1E) GR-24 pop-ups might also be repurposed so each bay could hold two 190mm x 1140mm missiles (this requires moving the PC/HBT canister charging ports), possibly using an under carriage deployment instead of top ejection.

***The Beta has x2 (one is an OSM AE, but HG went with it), the Alpha frame is known to have 3: MM-60, the head launcher (OSM AE, HG went with it), the Shadow Drone (1E RPG designated) GR-24

Seto wrote:
In a strictly theoretical sense, yes. Bear in mind, though, that that's not as viable in a realistic scenario given the various matters of inertia and so on that Palladium doesn't cover mechanically and that it also renders the Legioss/Alpha useless in one of its main operating roles as an escort for troop landers and supply ships making planetfall. You're not going to be able to reliably protect an objective in those conditions when your only effective engagement strategy is to fire one or two shots and then run away for a bit.

Well you can maintain protection if the Alphas stagger themselves such that some Alpha's are always approaching and some are always "resetting". While Palladium doesn't consider physics to well, some of that is supposed to fall on the GM, but mechanically you are supposed to take 1 attack to turn around each time (2 attacks) and several more attacks getting the distance (possibly with accel/decel).

Seto wrote:
She seemed to be able to identify the shadow fighters and neutron-s missiles as shadow technology at a glance... though she does have supernatural perceptive abilities, allegedly.

As of TSC-recton yes, but that really isn't the issue that I'm looking at.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 6:51 pm
  

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Knight

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ShadowLogan wrote:
It's a plot hole, internally it seems most likely that: A. they are/where officially talking on some level (doubtful), B. The Regent had an "agent(s)" w/n the Regess faction relaying information (doubtful), C. The Invid Hive Mind aspect, D. Coincidence.

None of which make for a satisfying or consistent answer, unfortunately.



ShadowLogan wrote:
NG#1/Ep61 does have the Alpha firing missiles at targets in the void of space (apparently) that are not visible during the initial phase of the battle. Which means space is pushing the engagement window out beyond 4.8km.

Ah, yes... that scene. That one is often (incorrectly) cited as an example of the Legioss's/Alpha's missile range being greater than stated because it looks like the Invit/Invid aren't within visual range due to how dark the scene is, and how grainy and washed-out the poor-quality Robotech VHS and DVD transfers were. It's easier to see on a higher-quality transfer and a higher contrast screen, but the Invit/Invid are actually within visual range in that scene and are shown backlit by the explosions of the first missile attack. Like every other engagement, the range of that initial attack was only a few hundred meters to a few kilometers.

(Bernard literally says "target in sight" right before that scene in the original... in English, no less!)



ShadowLogan wrote:
It might be that, against Invid at least, the missiles are more effective at the 1-2km range which is why pilots hold off (actually aside from main characters, missile use is nearly absent in terms of animated depicted use in the 85EP/OSM by the Alpha/Beta with instances that IINM can be counted on one-hand for no-names, guest character Wolfe being an apparent exception and of course later depictions like TSC).

Eh... I mean, when you get right down to it that's gonna be true for any foe. The shorter the range, the less time the enemy has for evasive action if they can detect the missile's launch. That's why in most cases fighters don't engage with missiles right at the edge of their range, because the probability of a hit is so low in general and worse with semi-active or passive guidance because it's easier for the guide beam to lose the target or the passive seeker head to be diverted by countermeasures.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Well I guess the questions then is can the UEEF:
-produce a missile sized to fit their launchers with better performance (given the old UEDF HMM-01 I think the answer is yes)

If they could, you'd think they would... the only improvement in the Alpha's weapons performance we see in-series comes in with the Shadow refit when they gain a Macross-esque ability to lock onto multiple targets and when the Super Shadow Fighters deploy missiles with optical seeker heads instead of the radar-guided ones that were unable to lock onto the Haydonites.



ShadowLogan wrote:
-how much margin do the 5 internal launchers*** have for each missile in terms of size (or put another way how much bigger/smaller can they actually go and not cause issues)

Little to no margin, based on the art. None, based on the RTSC CG models.



ShadowLogan wrote:
-can the mecha be modified to carry larger ordnance externally (yes, but it likely comes with mode restriction in a lot of cases* but is already present in the Beta and Logan so would not be technically out of place for RT)
-can the mecha be modified to carry larger ordnance internally (yes**)

Up to a certain point, but because the Legioss's/Alpha's ground clearance is so poor and its wing area so low that it's doubtful it could do so and still fly or land properly and the quantity would have to be very low due to the limited space. That's less of an issue in space, but that ordnance would impede the transformation process which essentially means it's only good for that very first salvo.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Well you can maintain protection if the Alphas stagger themselves such that some Alpha's are always approaching and some are always "resetting". While Palladium doesn't consider physics to well, some of that is supposed to fall on the GM, but mechanically you are supposed to take 1 attack to turn around each time (2 attacks) and several more attacks getting the distance (possibly with accel/decel).

That, again, is more an atmosphere-only maneuver due to the Alpha's limited propellant capacity and its main duty in space of flying escort for troop landers.

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:09 am
  

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Palladin

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Seto wrote:
Ah, yes... that scene. That one is often (incorrectly) cited as an example of the Legioss's/Alpha's missile range being greater than stated because it looks like the Invit/Invid aren't within visual range due to how dark the scene is, and how grainy and washed-out the poor-quality Robotech VHS and DVD transfers were. It's easier to see on a higher-quality transfer and a higher contrast screen, but the Invit/Invid are actually within visual range in that scene and are shown backlit by the explosions of the first missile attack. Like every other engagement, the range of that initial attack was only a few hundred meters to a few kilometers.

I watched the scene form my copy of the OSM remasters (ADV DVDs) and it looks just as dark. It's also worth considering that some of those might be intentional edits to alter the parameters of the original scene (we see that in "Danger Zone" in TRM to suggest the altitude is higher than originally shown, some even claim it shows they are in space, but it doesn't as the result is a dark blue effect).

Now screen settings could also be at play, I can't say (viewing angle to the screen can also be a factor with LCDs I've found, but people do have their own preferred settings). I'm not sure how valid I would take the "if we do X" argument to the picture, in some respects it comes across as "looking for backward messages" in popular music*, visual media is a bit different than audio of course but it still has the vibe IMHO. RT was a broadcast TV show from 1985, so the viewing then would not allow for this.

*I actually found an example by accident with the song "We're an American Band" by Grand Funk Railroad, when I found I could "rewind" w/n the track on my CD player (and it wasn't just me or my CD Player).

Seto wrote:
If they could, you'd think they would... the only improvement in the Alpha's weapons performance we see in-series comes in with the Shadow refit when they gain a Macross-esque ability to lock onto multiple targets and when the Super Shadow Fighters deploy missiles with optical seeker heads instead of the radar-guided ones that were unable to lock onto the Haydonites.

Would they though? We are talking about the same organization that is known to make questionable choices right? The one that requires body armor for operating a Veritech in its battloid mode. The one that essentially compromised the Alpha's range to fit said Veritech as an emergency vehicle (that volume of space represent ~1cubic meter, or ~1000L/264Gal). The one that went with a full 2nd mecha for it to connect with to address its range (and give it external hardpoints), when a simpler package setup could likely achieve the same ends. The one that has the Beta connect with the Alpha, which blocks/denies use of ~1/2 its weapon systems (not counting Hardpoints). The one that doesn't equip the Beta with BVR missiles when connected with the Alpha. The one that went with using the H/I engines instead of the better Z engines when they did the Shadow Version replacement. The one that has ships with basically no built in point defenses. The one that did not use anti-ship (beam) weapons to shoot down Invid Carriers (while we don't know the range of said weapons, the UEEF could have salvaged Zentreadi beam weapons like they do Fold Drives). The one that deployed Cyclone units in a Calvary Charge without heavy support units (I would consider the Condor and Alphas acting as air-support, I'm talking Destroid/VHT type ground units).

Seto wrote:
Little to no margin, based on the art. None, based on the RTSC CG models.

So their launcher covers would have to be altered then, that at least would allow stretch version of missiles to be carried.

Seto wrote:
Up to a certain point, but because the Legioss's/Alpha's ground clearance is so poor and its wing area so low that it's doubtful it could do so and still fly or land properly and the quantity would have to be very low due to the limited space. That's less of an issue in space, but that ordnance would impede the transformation process which essentially means it's only good for that very first salvo./quote]
Transformation restriction is a given, but only if you use traditional locations like the under intakes (clearance issues will limit size) and the wings (due to smaller nature you're only going to get one hardpoint). The SSF-A's fastpack locations do not interfere with transformation, so theoretically they could be converted to hardpoints on the non-SSF-A (they already can support the weight or be made to, the only question is when the UEEF figured this out), the resulting placement has historical examples in the realworld. And I showed how the Alpha could be converted to carry "larger" missiles internally.

Seto wrote:
hat, again, is more an atmosphere-only maneuver due to the Alpha's limited propellant capacity and its main duty in space of flying escort for troop landers.

Well if we believe the uRRG numbers, though the numbers I worked out a while ago for the OSM certainly give it better performance (not as good as the VF-1 IIRC), but in space at least the tactic is more viable with the combiner (solo you likely would only do a few passes, I think the main point is to find tactics that favor the Alpha over the Invid that can be used for as long as possible).


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:39 pm
  

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Knight

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ShadowLogan wrote:
I watched the scene form my copy of the OSM remasters (ADV DVDs) and it looks just as dark. It's also worth considering that some of those might be intentional edits to alter the parameters of the original scene (we see that in "Danger Zone" in TRM to suggest the altitude is higher than originally shown, some even claim it shows they are in space, but it doesn't as the result is a dark blue effect).

I am fairly confident it is not an intentional edit, merely a scene that was animated quite dark.

The Invit/Invid are, however, within visual range during that scene as established by dialog and them being backlit by the detonations of the first salvo of missiles.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Would they though? We are talking about the same organization that is known to make questionable choices right?

Granted, they make questionable choices on a fairly frequent basis... but that doesn't rule out them making a good decision or two even if it's only by accident.



ShadowLogan wrote:
The one that requires body armor for operating a Veritech in its battloid mode. The one that essentially compromised the Alpha's range to fit said Veritech as an emergency vehicle (that volume of space represent ~1cubic meter, or ~1000L/264Gal). The one that went with a full 2nd mecha for it to connect with to address its range (and give it external hardpoints), when a simpler package setup could likely achieve the same ends. The one that has the Beta connect with the Alpha, which blocks/denies use of ~1/2 its weapon systems (not counting Hardpoints). The one that doesn't equip the Beta with BVR missiles when connected with the Alpha. The one that went with using the H/I engines instead of the better Z engines when they did the Shadow Version replacement. The one that has ships with basically no built in point defenses. The one that did not use anti-ship (beam) weapons to shoot down Invid Carriers (while we don't know the range of said weapons, the UEEF could have salvaged Zentreadi beam weapons like they do Fold Drives). The one that deployed Cyclone units in a Calvary Charge without heavy support units (I would consider the Condor and Alphas acting as air-support, I'm talking Destroid/VHT type ground units).

... did we switch character sheets here for a hot minute? Seriously, you're starting to sound like me.

Admittedly, some of that stuff has some rather odd explanations and a fair amount of it is readily attributable to the fact that the military technology in MOSPEADA is a lot less advanced than the tech in Southern Cross, which is less advanced than Macross, and that the mecha are essentially first-generation designs cobbled together based on a poor understanding of the Invit which was acquired during the initial invasion of Earth in 2050. The Legioss was never supposed to be front-and-center as the main mecha of the series. That's Gakken's fault. It was originally meant to be more or less just how 1st Lt. Bernard got to Earth, so it was done at a lower level of detail than the titular MOSPEADA. Gakken wanted to get a piece of Takatoku's action with transforming fighters, so the Legioss got forced into greater prominence and the TLEAD was invented to beef up the toy line.

The rest are issues caused by appropriating the stats from someone's fanfic rather than official materials.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Well if we believe the uRRG numbers, though the numbers I worked out a while ago for the OSM certainly give it better performance (not as good as the VF-1 IIRC), but in space at least the tactic is more viable with the combiner (solo you likely would only do a few passes, I think the main point is to find tactics that favor the Alpha over the Invid that can be used for as long as possible).

Remember, the tech level here is also a lot lower in the OSM... but the main restriction there is going to be the fact that these fighters are mainly there to fly escort for the ships carrying ground forces and war materiel down to the surface. They can't abandon their charges, or the landing op blows up in their faces.

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:04 am
  

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Palladin

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Seto wrote:
Granted, they make questionable choices on a fairly frequent basis... but that doesn't rule out them making a good decision or two even if it's only by accident.

I agree they can make the odd lucky choice.

Seto wrote:
... did we switch character sheets here for a hot minute? Seriously, you're starting to sound like me.

No, but there have been times we've agreed on principle if not details in the past. Nothing says a fan can not have gripes with the material and still be a fan.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:09 pm
  

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Knight

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Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
TBH, the more we examine it I think most of the issues can be solved with a mild rewrite and correct designation for these aircraft with little-to-no actual change to their stats.

I'm gonna have a go at that, see where it takes me.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 7:16 am
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
-reads....reads some more....and then some more-

Why not just search out the old Dave Deitrich Third Invid War material and use some ideas from the newer models of alpha and beta to get where this thread is looking to go.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:01 pm
  

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Knight

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Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
jaymz wrote:
-reads....reads some more....and then some more-

Why not just search out the old Dave Deitrich Third Invid War material and use some ideas from the newer models of alpha and beta to get where this thread is looking to go.

... some bad ideas are just better off lost to history.

Besides, wouldn't you prefer to see some original thought associated with Robotech one of these days?

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:22 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
Well the OP wanted ways to improve what we have. Not completely rewrite things as is currently being discussed.

But this has gone so off the trail at this point I just wanted to steer it back some.

I'd not be surprised if the op just gave up on this thread at this point honestly.

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Email - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, Facebook - Jaymz LaFlamme, Robotech.com - Icerzone

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 5:01 pm
  

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@Seto
My earlier assessment on the size of the Alpha's MM-60 190mm missile vs the VF-1's (OSM, RT Infopedia implied) UUM-7 150mm HMM-01 missile is actually slightly off. I wrote the diameter to length ratio was 1:1.5 and 1:3.5 respectively, however I was eyeballing the measurements, and went back recently and measured them more accurately in the lineart (I used REF Field Guide OSM lineart for the Alpha, and your website for the VF-1 missile). What I found was that the ratio should be 1:2 and 1:4 respectively, which alters the results... the HMM-01 actually ends up with 98% of the volume of the Alpha missile. That means the UEEF could produce a repackaged HMM-01 into the Alpha missile frame based on volume.

@Jaymz
Sure someone can use the TIW stuff if they want, but overall there is a lot of stuff in there I don't think that aged well for me personally (due to nearly two decades of discussions on the mecha the units are based on). Sure I could tweak them to work better for me personally, but the end result could probably be achieved also by just doing my own thing.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 5:03 pm
  

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Knight

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Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
jaymz wrote:
Well the OP wanted ways to improve what we have. Not completely rewrite things as is currently being discussed.

Well, yes... but you read the thread, so you know the reason it diverged the way it did as quickly as it did was because the general consensus among us was that its issues are largely unfixable without a complete redesign from the ground up. You can improve it slightly by taking out certain Robotech-isms that weren't part of the original design, but at the end of the day it's a problematic brick of a plane that doesn't really have anything to offer except being a glorified FAST Pack 99% of the time.


Also, wasn't this your contribution to the discussion? :-P
jaymz wrote:
Can we do it better? Yeah. Reinsert the VF-1 series with it's multitude of options and ditch the alpha and beta altogether :P


Looking back at it, you're the one who took this thread off the rails the first time, smart aleck. :p

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:27 pm
  

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Knight

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Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
ShadowLogan wrote:
@Seto
My earlier assessment on the size of the Alpha's MM-60 190mm missile vs the VF-1's (OSM, RT Infopedia implied) UUM-7 150mm HMM-01 missile is actually slightly off. I wrote the diameter to length ratio was 1:1.5 and 1:3.5 respectively, however I was eyeballing the measurements, and went back recently and measured them more accurately in the lineart (I used REF Field Guide OSM lineart for the Alpha, and your website for the VF-1 missile). What I found was that the ratio should be 1:2 and 1:4 respectively, which alters the results... the HMM-01 actually ends up with 98% of the volume of the Alpha missile. That means the UEEF could produce a repackaged HMM-01 into the Alpha missile frame based on volume.

Eh... so, yeah... those numbers? None of them are correct or OSM. If you're using those vs. the art, you're going to come out with some bizarre and wildly inaccurate numbers.

Especially where the Legioss is concerned, since the RT numbers don't even match its actual physical dimensions in the OSM materials and art. :?

Your eyeballed estimate was actually more accurate than your computed one. Using proper OSM publications as reference, the Legioss's missiles are around 1.75:1 length:diameter across almost all of its available art. The Bifors HMM-01 micro-missile used by the VF-1 Valkyrie is about 3.25:1. The HMM-01's a hair under 20cm in diameter. So if we take the Robotech take on the Legioss missiles, the HMM-01's a bit under twice the size. Closer to 4x the size once you account for the fact that approximately 1/2 the Legioss missile's length is a hollow engine bell.

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:13 pm
  

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I may have found an easy way to give both the Beta Fighter and an Alpha a boost in terms of maneuverability by making two alterations to their official RT/OSM specs:
-1. Use the First Edition Palladium RPG Dry Masses for both mecha (11 tons Alpha and 14tons Beta per 1E RPG)
-2. Retroactively include the ability to Overboost the Engines (this doubles the amount of thrust they generate, a feature found in the VF-1. The UEEF might have ordered the feature disabled as their PC stores grew more limited, by the time of Ep84-5/TSC the UEEF only had about a years worth of fuel left after the battle so I could see a fuel saving measure implemented as far back as Ep61)

This results in this revised Alpha-H/I/S with a (dry) T/W ratio of ~1.745 w/o Overboost (~3.491 w/) just from its 4x ATF-401 engines (if we factor in its additional twin JG-97M...). The Alpha-Z is ~1.855 w/o OB (~3.709 w/) from its 4x ATF-415 engines (additional boost is gained from the twin JG-99s). For comparison the VF-1A/J/D has a dry T/W Ratio of ~1.736 w/o OB (~3.472 w/) from its twin FF-2001 engines (the VF-1S used the FF-2001D which comes in at 1.887 and 3.774), though this is using the OSM dry mass and not the slightly heavier RT.com mass (never mind the even heavier 2E RPG).

Spoiler:
For comparison the baseline versions of the Alpha-H/I/S has a T/W ratio of 1.15 and the Alpha-Z has a T/W ratio of 1.22, each from their 4x ATF-4xx engines, more with their twin JG-xx engines. IIRC the JG-xx engines each are capable of generating x2 the ATF engine thrust it is paired with


These two slight adjustments actually would make the claim about the Alpha's high thrust-to-weight ratio a true statement (at least w/regard to known RT designs). The Beta certainly would benefit, how much compared to its baseline I'm not sure.


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