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Unread postPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 6:59 pm
  

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Knight

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ShadowLogan wrote:
I do not see using penalties as an issue. Piloting maneuvers are included in the M2 and 1E RT (along with other PB lines, but not Rifts or 2e RT directly for some reason), and they operate by imposing penalties to the pilot skill check. Use of the alien penalty should not be any more complicated. Imposing penalties is also a known mechanic in how skills work.

Yes, but in order to simplify what penalties need to be applied and reduce the number of penalties that need to be actively tracked and remembered by the GM and Players, it makes sense to group the craft available to players and the skills needed to operate them based on more specific attributes of form, control, and function.

This is why the RPG's - let's use RT2e's as a common ground for this example - doesn't just lump all aircraft, all boats, or all cars into a single skill. They might all belong to the same top-level category in whatever taxonomy we want to use, but they're very different in form and function and their operation requires different skills, knowledge, behaviors, and strategies. This is why there isn't just Pilot: Boat, but rather separate skills for rowboats, sailboats, and motorboats, and why military boats have their own separate skill that also includes proficiency in military-specific design features and how to use the vehicle in combat conditions. It's not the absolute simplest approach, but it is the approach that makes the most logical sense in terms of how typical human beings think about and classify the vehicles on offer.


ShadowLogan wrote:
I think we agree that lumping them into as few skills as possible makes sense, when something should be separated is the issue.

Mostly, yes. My position is that the separations defined in the setting material are themselves inherently logical and simple enough that further reduction just opens the door to confusion. Especially since those divisions are an explicit part of the setting, and the goal of a licensed game is to replicate the setting.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Really if you are looking for more restrictive use the best way to handle it might be to require RC: Elite/MECT to operate a certain mecha instead of breaking the piloting skill down into multiple versions and having RC/MECT in play on top of it. I do not off-hand know of any megaversal precedent for this in terms of RC:E/MECT Skills (powers yes, skills no), but it really is only a small tweak to the way the system works vs use of a list of house skills. Mechanically it also works in allowing characters to learn new mecha skills a lot easier w/n the existing framework of level advancement should they choose to do so (in RAW, if you have skill acquisitions at a different rate it won't be).

The problem I have with this is that it makes Pilot skills TOO portable with how simplified you've proposed making the divisions.

Skills like Pilot: Robots and Powered Armor are too generic and too broad. They're functionally a "Pilot: Everything Else" skill that would allow access to a much wider variety of craft than is reasonable given the wide variety of craft lumped under those skills. It doesn't make any sense to say that a person who knows how to pilot a Destroid knows automatically how to pilot a Battle Pod too. There's an enormous difference between those two classes of vehicle in terms of how they're controlled (and how much automation is involved), how they maneuver, what kinds of maneuvers they're capable of executing, and how they're used in combat.

IMO, it makes more sense to follow the pre-existing guidelines laid down in the source material. Esp. with respect to where skills are portable to other classes of vehicle and why. We know that there's enough commonality of control and handling for a VF pilot to operate a Destroid like the Spartan and for a Destroid-trained operator to handle a Valkyrie in Battroid mode. Likewise, we know that there is heavy commonality of control design between a Variable Fighter and a Variable Attacker or Variable Electronic Warfare plane, so the pilot of one can jump to the other with little difficulty. We've also seen that, in some cases, pilots of Battle Pods are also trained in operating Battle Suits (Quamzin operates both in the TV series). We also know that it's possible for someone trained on a conventional jet to pilot a VF in a diminished capacity, or for someone who's only trained on a civilian-issue Valkyrie to hop into a military-issue one and at least attempt to fight in a very awkward and unsuccessful way without knowing how to work the built-in weapons. These are good working guidelines for delineating how many skills and for what types of vehicles for a licensed game like Macross II.



ShadowLogan wrote:
I agree the transformation is treated (almost exclusively*) as a free action, but given the variable nature of a characters action** duration w/n a melee period (15sec) it could be an issue (when times are available).

IMO, the RT1e handling of the Cyclone is a logical enough since that requires manipulating and repositioning the operator's own body and the weapons and such are mounted directly to the body armor (riding suit) worn by the operator meaning you can't aim the weapons without moving the operator's temporarily out-of-action limbs.

It's quite different to something like a VF where the pilot's sitting pretty in a chair while things rearrange themselves around him and his only real impact is that he goes from a canopy to a monitor for eyeballing things. Because things are so heavily automated in Macross, I've kind of gone back and forth on whether it should take a melee action since transformation is so often used as a way to dodge an incoming attack. The one area where I've consistently gone with "Yes" has been EX-Gear in main-timeline Macross for switching from ground combat mode to flight mode, which doesn't involve any actual transformation but involves deploying the wings and rocket thrusters which takes a second or two and then launching into the air.





Sambot wrote:
Actually, the way civilians are written in the Macross Sourcebook they're not a single occupation with MOSs.

No, it's presented in the book as a single OCC - the Civilian OCC - that confers common skills and a selection of Occupations (MOS's) that confer additional job-specific skills. They aren't separate OCCs.


Sambot wrote:
Yes there's the Air Display Team. They're also an example for why different piloting specialties should be MOSs.

This reasoning doesn't work if it's examined even a little, I'm afraid. For one, you can only have one MOS. It's possible in the real world and well-precedented in-series for a pilot to be qualified of more than one class of aircraft. Roy Focker, for one, was qualified on propeller aircraft (a replica Fokker D.VII), jet fighters (F203 Dragon II) and Valkyries (VF-1, VF-0). He held qualifications as both a stunt pilot AND a veteran combat pilot.

Second, in movies a fair amount of the maneuvering is faked with scale models and such. Most stunt pilots aren't trained in executing combat maneuvers like that, and even the ones who are don't get trained in how to incorporate those moves in air combat strategy. When movies need veracity (like, say, Top Gun), they hire the actual military to assist with the filming and shoot combat-trained pilots in training exercises with dummy weapons and edit it together with footage of miniatures.

Third, knowing how to do something in an academic sense or in perfect-world no-pressure conditions doesn't translate to being able to do the same thing under duress. This is why Stunt Pilot and Pilot: Jet Aircraft are separate from the military piloting disciplines that explicitly include air combat maneuvers and strategy stunt pilots don't need to learn.


Sambot wrote:
The actual act of flying a plane hasn't really changed since the Wright Brothers. The basic controls are the same. It's the details between craft that's the difference.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

This is wrong on so many different levels I'm not even sure how to begin addressing it.

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 30, 2021 8:38 am
  

Dungeon Crawler

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sambot wrote:
Actually, the way civilians are written in the Macross Sourcebook they're not a single occupation with MOSs.

No, it's presented in the book as a single OCC - the Civilian OCC - that confers common skills and a selection of Occupations (MOS's) that confer additional job-specific skills. They aren't separate OCCs.


Actually, it isn't. The text Civilian OCC says it's presented differently however it's not any different than a Military OCC. You pick an occupation (OCC) and get those skills. Then you select Elective skills and Secondary Skills. Then it lists some Occupations (OCCs); Business Owner, Communications Engineer, Stunt Pilot to name a few. Each is completely separate and distinct from the other. It no different than talking about Military OCCs and then picking an OCC; Military Specialist, Veritech Pilot, Destroid Pilot, etc. In this case "Civilian OCC" is more like a broad category of OCCs and not an OCC in and of itself.

What you're describing is more like the Sovietsk Civilian OCC. It has Civilian OCC skills and then MOSs for different occupations, followed by secondary skills.

Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Yes there's the Air Display Team. They're also an example for why different piloting specialties should be MOSs.

This reasoning doesn't work if it's examined even a little, I'm afraid. For one, you can only have one MOS. It's possible in the real world and well-precedented in-series for a pilot to be qualified of more than one class of aircraft. Roy Focker, for one, was qualified on propeller aircraft (a replica Fokker D.VII), jet fighters (F203 Dragon II) and Valkyries (VF-1, VF-0). He held qualifications as both a stunt pilot AND a veteran combat pilot.


Besides the fact that Stunt Pilot isn't an MOS, I think changing and MOS would be akin to changing an OCC. Like going from a Fighter Pilot to a Cargo Pilot. You might still fly fighters to maintain your qualification but your new job is to fly cargo planes.

Actually, Roy would have had multiple OCCs. He'd start off as a Stunt Pilot, then become he'd join the military and become a Technical Officer with the Fighter Pilot MOS. (Nothing else fits) Then he'd become a Valkyrie Pilot with the Veritech Test Pilot MOS. At least. Along the way, Civilian skills would have been replaced with military ones. Combat Flying replacing Aerobatics for example. He could still do stunt work if he'd wanted. In fact he'd of been even better at it because his Combat Flying skill was better than his Aerobatics skill. Hikaru would follow a similar path, going from Stunt Pilot to Veritich Pilot with the VF-1 Valkyrie MOS.


Quote:
Second, in movies a fair amount of the maneuvering is faked with scale models and such. Most stunt pilots aren't trained in executing combat maneuvers like that, and even the ones who are don't get trained in how to incorporate those moves in air combat strategy. When movies need veracity (like, say, Top Gun), they hire the actual military to assist with the filming and shoot combat-trained pilots in training exercises with dummy weapons and edit it together with footage of miniatures.


Not really. Sure for somethings models, props, and CGI are used but they also use real aircraft. That's why they have stunt pilots. It's why Hollywood rents out vintage planes or gets military cooperation.
Need a shot of an F/A-18 taking off and landing on a carrier? Go to the carrier and shoot some video. It's cheaper and faster than CGI. Need a shot of a P-51 taking off and doing stunts? Rent one and film it. The CGI and models are used for things that isn't practical to use a real aircraft for. Like outer space and explosions.


Quote:
Third, knowing how to do something in an academic sense or in perfect-world no-pressure conditions doesn't translate to being able to do the same thing under duress. This is why Stunt Pilot and Pilot: Jet Aircraft are separate from the military piloting disciplines that explicitly include air combat maneuvers and strategy stunt pilots don't need to learn.


That's where skill penalties/bonuses come in. Aerobatics and Combat Flying are essentially the same skill. Combat Flying though has greater bonuses than Aerobatics because its the Aerobatics skill under combat conditions.

The isn't much difference between a military aircraft and a Civilian one. Mostly it comes down to frills. The military has used a lot of converted civilian craft and some civilian craft were converted from military planes. It isn't just cargo/passenger planes either. The Learjet was based on a fighter prototype.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
The actual act of flying a plane hasn't really changed since the Wright Brothers. The basic controls are the same. It's the details between craft that's the difference.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

This is wrong on so many different levels I'm not even sure how to begin addressing it.


You think so? The primary controls have been standard since 1909. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_ ... rol_system


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Unread postPosted: Sun May 30, 2021 10:37 am
  

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Seto wrote:
This is why the RPG's - let's use RT2e's as a common ground for this example - doesn't just lump all aircraft, all boats, or all cars into a single skill. They might all belong to the same top-level category in whatever taxonomy we want to use, but they're very different in form and function and their operation requires different skills, knowledge, behaviors, and strategies. This is why there isn't just Pilot: Boat, but rather separate skills for rowboats, sailboats, and motorboats, and why military boats have their own separate skill that also includes proficiency in military-specific design features and how to use the vehicle in combat conditions. It's not the absolute simplest approach, but it is the approach that makes the most logical sense in terms of how typical human beings think about and classify the vehicles on offer.

I agree they don't lump all those types together and AFAIK never have*, but 2E RT isn't perfect either in this respect (Pilot: Ground Veritechs covers the VHTs, Cyclones, and Silverbacks by the time of the end of the line). I agree the generic skill can have its drawbacks, but it also has its strengths.

*
Spoiler:
At the general character level AFAIK this is true, though I know there are special cases for specific classes that go against this and have what amounts to "Pilot ANYTHING & EVERYTHING".


Seto wrote:
The problem I have with this is that it makes Pilot skills TOO portable with how simplified you've proposed making the divisions.

Actually it wouldn't, if you require a pilot to ALSO HAVE a MECT/RC Skill in addition to the piloting skill to use a specific mecha at all it does restrict the piloting skills perceived portability. As an example lets say (as a house rule) the UEEF Bioroid Interceptor requires MECT: UEEF BI Skill Plus (+) Pilot Mecha: Battloid, in this way even though Pilot Mecha: Battloid should let you pilot the BI in RAW but you don't have MECH: UEEF BI, with this house rule you would not as you do not have all the required skills. I think it strikes a balance between what you want (detail skills based on source material) with the needs of the players from a skill slot perspective as they gain experience if they want to learn to use different mecha effectively.

There IS some precedent for this from the Read Sensors/Sensory Instruments Skill as its entry in RT1E/RT2E/M2/Rifts/HU is said to be required to operate certain types of vehicles (the specific wording does change between them), though you it isn't clear if you can technically take those piloting skills w/o it (it's not listed as a prerequisite in those pilot skills).

Seto wrote:
IMO, the RT1e handling of the Cyclone is a logical enough since that requires manipulating and repositioning the operator's own body and the weapons and such are mounted directly to the body armor (riding suit) worn by the operator meaning you can't aim the weapons without moving the operator's temporarily out-of-action limbs.

Don't get me wrong I can see why the Cyclone has it vs the Alpha, my point is that the unit of cost is not a fixed value when converted to the same units as the fixed transformation time. At 3rd Level Rand vs 10th Level Rand is still paying the cost of 1 melee action to transform mechanically, but that 1 melee action at those two levels has a different value based on level (5sec vs 2.5sec, even though it still technically takes 5secs).


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Unread postPosted: Sun May 30, 2021 4:58 pm
  

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Knight

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ShadowLogan wrote:
I agree they don't lump all those types together and AFAIK never have*, [...]

You made an argument that was exactly that just a few posts ago... lumping them into just three categories: Transformable, Non-Transformable, Powered Armor.


ShadowLogan wrote:
[...]but 2E RT isn't perfect either in this respect (Pilot: Ground Veritechs covers the VHTs, Cyclones, and Silverbacks by the time of the end of the line). I agree the generic skill can have its drawbacks, but it also has its strengths.

Granted, a generic skill can cover for areas where there is "category confusion" like you describe in Robotech... but that's a problem that is all but totally nonexistent in Macross and Macross II specifically. There's no reason to have a generic skill when the categories are so well-defined in the source material. There are only a handful of designs that are not either explicitly categorized for you by the creators or lack an obvious classification. Pretty much the full list of mecha pilot skills I have for my homebrew is as follows:
  • Pilot: Valkyrie - Covers any model of Variable Fighter or role-specific VF derivative (VA, VB, VBP, VE, VT, RVF, GERWALKroid, etc.)
  • Pilot: Civilian Valkyrie - Macross II only: same as Pilot: Valkyrie but with no weapons knowledge or associated combat skill/training.
  • Pilot: Destroid - Covers all non-variable ground mecha excl. Zentradi hardware
  • Pilot: Civilian Destroid - Main timeline only: same as Pilot: Destroid but with no weapons knowledge or associated combat skill/training.
  • Pilot: Powered Suit - Main timeline only: covers a couple specific corner cases for civilian-use EX-Gear and other powered suits.
  • Pilot: Variable Ground Mecha - Main timeline only: covers a few Zero and 7-specific transformable land vehicles.
  • Pilot: Battle Pod - covers Zentran/Meltran/Mardook Battle Pods
  • Pilot: Battle Suit - covers Zentran/Meltran/Mardook Battle Suits
  • Pilot: Mobile Weapon - covers the Annabella Lasiodora mobile weapon and other "Mobile Armor"-type large constructs.
  • Pilot: Fold Evil - covers Protoculture piloted bio-weapon constructs

More than half of those are coverage for specific, but unexpectedly popular, OCC corner cases based on canonical characters or era-specific games. Most of the time, I only have to deal with Valkyrie, Destroid, Battle Pod, and Battle Suit. I've only ever used those last two for NPCs. Those four categories cover 99% of mecha in the setting and practically the entire spectrum of UN and New UN Forces craft from all seven branches of service.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Actually it wouldn't, if you require a pilot to ALSO HAVE a MECT/RC Skill in addition to the piloting skill to use a specific mecha at all it does restrict the piloting skills perceived portability.

But that, in and of itself, is illogical and doesn't really work with the setting where some mecha are straight-up incapable of combat (e.g. the VC-079 or the Destroid Word) and others are theoretically capable of it but the civilian pilot training and licensing doesn't include combat like Vanquish League air racers, non-combatant members of the Hunter's Guild, and conservationists like the Hoyly family.

It's easier, and suits Macross-style storytelling more readily, to have Pilot skills that lack or don't require combat training and reserve RC/MECT for the actual soldiers.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Don't get me wrong I can see why the Cyclone has it vs the Alpha, my point is that the unit of cost is not a fixed value when converted to the same units as the fixed transformation time. At 3rd Level Rand vs 10th Level Rand is still paying the cost of 1 melee action to transform mechanically, but that 1 melee action at those two levels has a different value based on level (5sec vs 2.5sec, even though it still technically takes 5secs).

I see what you're getting at... and, for these purposes, I'm reasonably grateful that it's kind of a non-issue for a Macross or Macross II game where transformation is something that is very quick (~1s) and requries no real input from the pilot except to initiate it. That way, being independent of a number of available melee actions is a non-issue. There are obvious issues for that for RT, but for Macross it's justifiable.

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 31, 2021 6:01 am
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
I agree they don't lump all those types together and AFAIK never have*, but 2E RT isn't perfect either in this respect (Pilot: Ground Veritechs covers the VHTs, Cyclones, and Silverbacks by the time of the end of the line). I agree the generic skill can have its drawbacks, but it also has its strengths.


I think the Pilot Veritech Aerospace craft and Pilot Ground Veritechs skills are more about when to convert the Battloid and how to handle them while converting than about actually piloting a vehicle. You still have to know how to pilot a Jet to pilot a Valkyrie, a motorcycle to pilot a Cyclone. I would even add Pilot Naval Veritech if mecha like that variable sub from M0 is included.




Seto Kaiba wrote:
  • Pilot: Civilian Valkyrie - Macross II only: same as Pilot: Valkyrie but with no weapons knowledge or associated combat skill/training.
  • Pilot: Civilian Destroid - Main timeline only: same as Pilot: Destroid but with no weapons knowledge or associated combat skill/training.

I would drop these skills as they're redundant. The also completely ignore the fact that not only can civilians buy surplus military mecha but that there's variants specifically made for civilians. We don't need two separate Valkyrie Piloting Skills or two separate Destroid skills. They're the same mecha. The difference is that Civilians aren't normally going to be allowed to take the Weapons System skill. Someone who operates a surplus VF-1S is going to be able to operate VF-1S that's still in military service. They just can't operate the weapon systems. They could try but there's big skill penalties for that.


Quote:
It's easier, and suits Macross-style storytelling more readily, to have Pilot skills that lack or don't require combat training and reserve RC/MECT for the actual soldiers.


Those skills would be Weapon Systems and Combat Flying. I would allow MECT as a Work Mecha is striking at picking up a crate or welding a beam and so one. They might be able to get into a physical mecha fight but they still can't operate the weapon systems. Unless there are weapons of a sort, but they'd have very limited availability. Welding torches, Demolition charges and stuff. Valkyrie pilots could also get into dogfights if they at least have the Aerobatics skill but they'd be at a disadvantage against a combat pilot with Combat Flying and again Weapon Systems.


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Unread postPosted: Mon May 31, 2021 11:28 am
  

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Palladin

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@Seto
I can see Pilot: Fold Evil as a separate skill (Bio-Constructs are in Palladium, Rifts has Necrol and then Splicers line, and IINM they use separate skills). Honest Mobile Weapon could just be covered by an existing vehicle skill IMHO, though it could be unique (GMU in 1E for example). The others I think could be folded together to create a smaller list, but at this point we're just going round in circles on the topic.

The APM issue can become an issue at very high level in Macross2 RPG, it can also be an issue at earlier levels in 1E RT and even earlier IINM in 2E RT (if it used Transformation takes an attack).


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Unread postPosted: Mon May 31, 2021 6:16 pm
  

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Knight

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ShadowLogan wrote:
@Seto
I can see Pilot: Fold Evil as a separate skill (Bio-Constructs are in Palladium, Rifts has Necrol and then Splicers line, and IINM they use separate skills). Honest Mobile Weapon could just be covered by an existing vehicle skill IMHO, though it could be unique (GMU in 1E for example). The others I think could be folded together to create a smaller list, but at this point we're just going round in circles on the topic.

Yeah, I went back and forth several times on the Mobile Weapon skill because the Annabella Lasiodora is the only entrant in the category at present. It's big enough that it really could be called a small warship and filed under Pilot: Spacecraft, but it gets around partly by "walking" with a series of VERY large multijointed arms.

As to the others, as I noted a lot of them are to cover specific OCC corner cases in the setting. Pilot: Powered Suit is mainly for the Civilian OCC's occupations, since there are various sports which are played using powered suits (e.g. Tornado Crash in Macross 7 Trash) as well as certain civilian organizations and occupations that use them. The Civilian versions I explain below. The Variable Ground Mecha one's another weird corner case one that mainly only exists for the Civilian Police occupation.



ShadowLogan wrote:
The APM issue can become an issue at very high level in Macross2 RPG, it can also be an issue at earlier levels in 1E RT and even earlier IINM in 2E RT (if it used Transformation takes an attack)

Oh, agreed. I've generally avoided any issues by treating transformation as a free action.



Sambot wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote:
  • Pilot: Civilian Valkyrie - Macross II only: same as Pilot: Valkyrie but with no weapons knowledge or associated combat skill/training.
  • Pilot: Civilian Destroid - Main timeline only: same as Pilot: Destroid but with no weapons knowledge or associated combat skill/training.

I would drop these skills as they're redundant. The also completely ignore the fact that not only can civilians buy surplus military mecha but that there's variants specifically made for civilians. We don't need two separate Valkyrie Piloting Skills or two separate Destroid skills. They're the same mecha. The difference is that Civilians aren't normally going to be allowed to take the Weapons System skill. Someone who operates a surplus VF-1S is going to be able to operate VF-1S that's still in military service. They just can't operate the weapon systems. They could try but there's big skill penalties for that.

First, you keep missing the fact that the RT2e ruleset's Pilot skills are different from older iterations like Macross II's. Pilot skills used to only cover being able to drive/fly the relevant vehicle, but the character also needed to have the Robot Combat: Basic or Robot Combat: Elite skill in order to fight in a mecha. The revised skills in the RT2e rules grants proficiency in all aspects of that vehicle's operation, not just in driving/flying it. This explicitly includes the ability to proficiently operate all of its onboard systems INCLUDING ITS WEAPONRY and to use said vehicle in combat without any kind of bonuses. Weapons Systems is not, and never has been, necessary to operate the onboard weapons of a vehicle. It also includes other required knowledge for operating specific classes of vehicle in their intended context like combat strategy and combat-specific maneuvers for military vehicle types. Weapons Systems, like RT2e's Combat Flying, are advanced proficiency skills above and beyond the bonuses offered by the Combat Elite skills. You could think of Combat Flying as a skill analogous to having cleared an advanced air combat training course like TOPGUN.

This is why I make the Civilian versions a separate skill because the civilian operator should not have some of the secondary benefits those military skills grant like proficiency in like operating weapons systems or knowledge of tactical operation.

Second, the reason those are marked as specific to a particular setting is because they aren't broadly applicable to the whole Macross setting. The Civilian Valkyrie skill would only be applicable to the Macross II timeline because that's the only part of the Macross series where there is a separate, designed-for-purpose civilian-use Valkyrie that is incapable of engaging in combat. There is no reason for a civilian operating the equivalent of a light commercial aircraft to have any familiarity with weapons systems on military aircraft or air combat discipline so a separate skill is appropriate to omit those 2e "extra features" of the Pilot skill for the military version. This category of craft doesn't exist outside Macross II, since the main timeline's civilian-market VFs are either a disarmed and detuned version of a military model that simply lacks an FCS or a literal ex-military aircraft. Likewise, the Civilian Destroid skill for the main Macross timeline covers a similar situation, where there are vehicles of that class which are specifically have no weapons and are not capable of engaging in combat, being essentially a mecha version of the Construction Vehicles skill. Someone trained on them would not have any grasp of weapons systems or tactical operation, which are secondary benefits of the 2e pilot skill for the military version.

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:01 am
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
First, you keep missing the fact that the RT2e ruleset's Pilot skills are different from older iterations like Macross II's. Pilot skills used to only cover being able to drive/fly the relevant vehicle, but the character also needed to have the Robot Combat: Basic or Robot Combat: Elite skill in order to fight in a mecha. The revised skills in the RT2e rules grants proficiency in all aspects of that vehicle's operation, not just in driving/flying it. This explicitly includes the ability to proficiently operate all of its onboard systems INCLUDING ITS WEAPONRY and to use said vehicle in combat without any kind of bonuses. Weapons Systems is not, and never has been, necessary to operate the onboard weapons of a vehicle. It also includes other required knowledge for operating specific classes of vehicle in their intended context like combat strategy and combat-specific maneuvers for military vehicle types. Weapons Systems, like RT2e's Combat Flying, are advanced proficiency skills above and beyond the bonuses offered by the Combat Elite skills. You could think of Combat Flying as a skill analogous to having cleared an advanced air combat training course like TOPGUN.

This is why I make the Civilian versions a separate skill because the civilian operator should not have some of the secondary benefits those military skills grant like proficiency in like operating weapons systems or knowledge of tactical operation.


No I haven't forgotten. However, those Mecha Combat Basic and Elite are military skills. They're not something your average civilian would have training in. Mecha Combat is also a separate skill from Piloting. Piloting deals with piloting. Combat deals with combat. That's why civilians can operate military vehicles. They just can't fight without additional skills like Aeronautics and even then they're not as good as a true combat pilot.

Let's try it like this. Your Average Pilot would be akin to a person with no hand to hand skills. A Stunt Pilot would be akin to a person with Hand to Hand Basic. A Fighter Pilot, Hand to Hand Elite. A TOPGUN Pilot Hand to Hand Martial Arts. How well they do in combat isn't just their piloting skill percentage but in their additional training. That's why civilians can operate military craft and stunt pilots are hired to film dogfight scenes.



Quote:
Second, the reason those are marked as specific to a particular setting is because they aren't broadly applicable to the whole Macross setting. The Civilian Valkyrie skill would only be applicable to the Macross II timeline because that's the only part of the Macross series where there is a separate, designed-for-purpose civilian-use Valkyrie that is incapable of engaging in combat. There is no reason for a civilian operating the equivalent of a light commercial aircraft to have any familiarity with weapons systems on military aircraft or air combat discipline so a separate skill is appropriate to omit those 2e "extra features" of the Pilot skill for the military version. This category of craft doesn't exist outside Macross II, since the main timeline's civilian-market VFs are either a disarmed and detuned version of a military model that simply lacks an FCS or a literal ex-military aircraft. Likewise, the Civilian Destroid skill for the main Macross timeline covers a similar situation, where there are vehicles of that class which are specifically have no weapons and are not capable of engaging in combat, being essentially a mecha version of the Construction Vehicles skill. Someone trained on them would not have any grasp of weapons systems or tactical operation, which are secondary benefits of the 2e pilot skill for the military version.


No your average civilian should not be able to engage in combat. They don't have the training for that. That doesn't mean a VF-1 Valkyrie stops being a VF-1 Valkyrie or that a Tomahawk stops being a Tomahawk. Just because weapons are removed or made inoperable doesn't make is a completely different mecha.

Please note I said, average civilian. A Stunt Pilot isn't your average civilian. Neither are VT-1W pilots or a Pilot of a Destroid set up for demolitions. They all require skills that your average civilian isn't going to have and even they aren't going to be as good as a Combat Pilot. I would also say that if there aren't any weapon systems on the craft, you're not going to be able to operate them even if you had the skill.

Now the Piloting skill does include combat but not at the best possibility. I would think this would still be allowed for civilians as they could still use drop tanks and cargo pods. You wouldn't want to drop your fuel and luggage half way to your destination. There's also cameras and such one might use for war games and such or to cover the news. That doesn't mean that a civilian is going to do well in a combat situation. That's where skill penalties come in.

For your average civilian
Confused/uncertain or distracted: -10% to -20%. (Combat is easily all three -20%)
Countermeasures. traps and alarms are in place: - 10% to - 15%. (Alarms screaming at you would cause the above -15%)
Difficult. complex or unfamiliar task: -10% -15% (There's some training but for your average civilian it's still easily all three -15%)
Distracted bv outside forces: -10% to -20%. depending upon the source of the distraction and how invasive it may be. (Someone shooting at you is pretty distracting. -20%)
Frightened. nervous or jumpy: -5% to - 10%. (Duh -20%)

So far the character's skill percentage is down 90% and we haven't finished the list.

Panic Situation -50% and half bonuses, no Perception Rolls, and any shooting is wild. (I know I saw that animated. Oh, hi Hikaru!)
There's also various Pressure Situation Levels with penalties up to -30%.
Scared -30%-50%, even up to -75% if phobia is involved.
and others including whatever the GM feels is appropriate. For example applying the Military Technology Penalty when going from a VC-079 to a VF-1. It's written for Civilian Techs and Engineers but I can see it being applied to Civilian Pilots as well. That's another -15% to -25%.

With all those penalties it'd be a miracle they survive combat. So no I don't have a problem with a civilian knowing how to pull a trigger and strafe some wild animals shooting video for the Macross Discovery Channel. I don't even have a problem with a Stunt Pilots reenacting SW1 for a movie. (Sounds familiar.) They're still going to have a terrible time in combat and if by some miracle they survive, they'll most likely need new flight suit and to hose out the cockpit.

As for the Civilian Destroid not engaging in combat, have you seen Patlabor? The whole reason Patrol Labors were created was because civilians were engaging in combat. Why should Macross civilian destroids be any different? They just can't engage in ranged combat. At least without hands and a gun pod.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:39 pm
  

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Knight

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Sambot wrote:
No I haven't forgotten. However, those Mecha Combat Basic and Elite are military skills. They're not something your average civilian would have training in. Mecha Combat is also a separate skill from Piloting. Piloting deals with piloting. Combat deals with combat. That's why civilians can operate military vehicles. They just can't fight without additional skills like Aeronautics and even then they're not as good as a true combat pilot.

So... what you said here is mostly correct for the Macross II RPG's ruleset, but is wrong for the RT2e ruleset we're actually talking about. We're talking about updating Macross II to use the RT2e core book and Macross Saga book ruleset. That seems to be where your understanding of my argument is breaking down.

In the RT2e ruleset, there is no Robot Combat: Basic skill anymore and the Pilot skills have changed somewhat to cover for its absence. The RT2e Pilot skills include not only the required proficiency to operate a particular type of vehicle, but also the ability to proficiently use all of its onboard systems and features. For military vehicles, that explicitly extends to its weaponry. It also explicitly confers the ability to take that vehicle into combat and fight with it without penalty (but also doesn't grant any bonuses). It's even noted to grant the character knowledge of vehicle-appropriate tactics. Pilot skills now effectively come with a baked-in, bonus-less, version of Combat: Basic in RT2e's version of the rules.

That's the reason that I have separate Pilot skills for the Civilian Valkyrie in Macross II and the Civilian-use Destroids in the main Macross timeline. If a Civilian character had a Military skill like Pilot: Valkyrie under the 2e ruleset, that character would not only be able to pilot a military VF just as well as a soldier would but would also have the same grasp of air combat tactics and weapon system operation that the trained soldier does. They would be able, under the rules-as-written, to take that military VF into combat and fight just as effectively as a soldier of the same level. That's a problem. To fix it, I have a separate skill for the Civilian Valkyrie and Civilian Destroids to reflect that people trained in their operation would not be trained in tactics, weapons systems operation, or in combat.



Sambot wrote:
No your average civilian should not be able to engage in combat. They don't have the training for that. That doesn't mean a VF-1 Valkyrie stops being a VF-1 Valkyrie or that a Tomahawk stops being a Tomahawk. Just because weapons are removed or made inoperable doesn't make is a completely different mecha.

The problem, as noted above, is that the military Pilot skills in RT2e would allow the civilian pilot to do exactly what you say they shouldn't be able to do... to engage in combat, use all of the available weapons on the mecha proficiently, and would even give them familiarity with military tactics!

The Pilot: Civilian Valkyrie skill I have is pretty much a one-mecha skill meant for use with the VC-079 Civilian Valkyrie in Macross II. That specific model of VF has never been a military model, it lacks any weapons or a Battroid mode, and it has very different aerodynamics and flight performance from a military Valkyrie. Pilot: Civilian Destroid covers both the disarmed and heavily modified old Destroids and the purpose-built unarmed and unarmored Destroid Work, all of which are effectively incapable of combat and their qualified operators would naturally not need to be trained in combat or in the use of the weapons systems those mecha do not have.



Sambot wrote:
I don't even have a problem with a Stunt Pilots reenacting SW1 for a movie. (Sounds familiar.)

They used military pilots for that, though... on both sides. Real warships too, admittedly some were tarted up with holograms to look like something they weren't.

In fact, every time they've filmed a docu-drama in-universe and we've seen it at some point it's been primarily trained combat pilots from the Spacy, a Spacy irregular unit, or a mercenary outfit. The only non-soldier ever mentioned in connection with piloting a VF in any of them was the schmuck from Birdhuman in Macross Frontier who, in one of the short stories, did a ride-along on a VF-1C at Mihoshi Academy to prepare him for his role as Shin Kudo even though all the actual VF flying was going to be done by professional soldiers and he just needed to add some veracity to some reaction shots.



Sambot wrote:
As for the Civilian Destroid not engaging in combat, have you seen Patlabor? The whole reason Patrol Labors were created was because civilians were engaging in combat. Why should Macross civilian destroids be any different? They just can't engage in ranged combat. At least without hands and a gun pod.

Yes I have, actually... the reason the Tokyo Metropolitan Police invested in their own Labor force was to deal with civilian crimes involving Labors. There's the once-a-season sort of incident where they deal with illegal testing of military labors (usually by Schaft Europe), but a lot of what they're up against is ne'er-do-wells armed with what amounts to stolen construction equipment. That said, much of a Labor's control setup is strictly manual or has to be pre-programmed from manual input while a Destroid has a much more sophisticated onboard computer that keeps most tasks automatic. That, combined with the fact that most civilian-use mecha lack a Fire Control System and other necessary hardware, would make it impossible or nearly impossible for them to engage in combat since they'd be unable to operate ranged weaponry. Taking manual control of limbs and punching could maybe do some minor property damage, but the unarmored Destroid Work is just going to ruin its hands by punching an actual armored military mecha.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:12 am
  

Dungeon Crawler

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
So... what you said here is mostly correct for the Macross II RPG's ruleset, but is wrong for the RT2e ruleset we're actually talking about. We're talking about updating Macross II to use the RT2e core book and Macross Saga book ruleset. That seems to be where your understanding of my argument is breaking down.

In the RT2e ruleset, there is no Robot Combat: Basic skill anymore and the Pilot skills have changed somewhat to cover for its absence. The RT2e Pilot skills include not only the required proficiency to operate a particular type of vehicle, but also the ability to proficiently use all of its onboard systems and features. For military vehicles, that explicitly extends to its weaponry. It also explicitly confers the ability to take that vehicle into combat and fight with it without penalty (but also doesn't grant any bonuses). It's even noted to grant the character knowledge of vehicle-appropriate tactics. Pilot skills now effectively come with a baked-in, bonus-less, version of Combat: Basic in RT2e's version of the rules.

That's the reason that I have separate Pilot skills for the Civilian Valkyrie in Macross II and the Civilian-use Destroids in the main Macross timeline. If a Civilian character had a Military skill like Pilot: Valkyrie under the 2e ruleset, that character would not only be able to pilot a military VF just as well as a soldier would but would also have the same grasp of air combat tactics and weapon system operation that the trained soldier does. They would be able, under the rules-as-written, to take that military VF into combat and fight just as effectively as a soldier of the same level. That's a problem. To fix it, I have a separate skill for the Civilian Valkyrie and Civilian Destroids to reflect that people trained in their operation would not be trained in tactics, weapons systems operation, or in combat.


By having two separate skills you're saying that the mecha are fundamentally different. They're not. A VF-1 does not stop being a VF-1 because it's owned by a civilian.

If you really don't want to use skill penalties, I'd recommend customizing Macross II's skill definitions a bit. Basically separate out the Piloting and Combat from the Valkyrie skill so it's more like the Destroid skill. Although some combat type technics are still going to be learned as Pilots need to know how to get out of situations even if they're not in combat.

I say that because Robotech doesn't have civilian Mecha. (I'm not sure Macross did either when Macross II came out.) Right now I can only think of 4 civilians operating mecha in Robotech. Rick at the beginning of Macross. Rook and Rand and a mayor in New Generation. And the last one owned drones.


Quote:
The problem, as noted above, is that the military Pilot skills in RT2e would allow the civilian pilot to do exactly what you say they shouldn't be able to do... to engage in combat, use all of the available weapons on the mecha proficiently, and would even give them familiarity with military tactics!


You don't have to be in the military to learn tactics. You also don't have to be a military pilot to dogfight. Besides books, video game, classes, there's places where you can rent a plane and go dogfighting. You also can't use weapon systems when the weapons have been disabled or removed. Sure they could be replaced, which is why VT-1C are stolen by pirates. There was also Graham and his wife's VF-1. Plus all the thieves and pirates and whale hunters operating VF-1As, VT-1Cs and VA-3Cs.

There's also Rook and Rand operating Cyclones and Alpha Fighters. They are skills that can be learned. They're civilians. They took their mecha into combat. There's also Basara taking his VF-19 into Combat. There's the War Correspondent OCC in Macross II. It's an example of a Civilian OCC with combat training.

Quote:
the war correspondent has a complete understanding of military procedure, rank, law and conduct. This character is also likely to have had been a soldier with past military experience or has some degree of combat training. The war. correspondent will also know how to use a weapon, has "sources" and friends within the military and has combat field experience. Field experience means the war correspondent will not panic under fire and has come to terms with the horrors of war.



Quote:
The Pilot: Civilian Valkyrie skill I have is pretty much a one-mecha skill meant for use with the VC-079 Civilian Valkyrie in Macross II. That specific model of VF has never been a military model, it lacks any weapons or a Battroid mode, and it has very different aerodynamics and flight performance from a military Valkyrie. Pilot: Civilian Destroid covers both the disarmed and heavily modified old Destroids and the purpose-built unarmed and unarmored Destroid Work, all of which are effectively incapable of combat and their qualified operators would naturally not need to be trained in combat or in the use of the weapons systems those mecha do not have.


Pilot Civilian Valkyrie is still a redundant skill, even in Macross II. The Piloting skill covers all Valkyrie types and as it only covers piloting, the VC-079 is covered by it.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I don't even have a problem with a Stunt Pilots reenacting SW1 for a movie. (Sounds familiar.)

They used military pilots for that, though... on both sides. Real warships too, admittedly some were tarted up with holograms to look like something they weren't.

In fact, every time they've filmed a docu-drama in-universe and we've seen it at some point it's been primarily trained combat pilots from the Spacy, a Spacy irregular unit, or a mercenary outfit. The only non-soldier ever mentioned in connection with piloting a VF in any of them was the schmuck from Birdhuman in Macross Frontier who, in one of the short stories, did a ride-along on a VF-1C at Mihoshi Academy to prepare him for his role as Shin Kudo even though all the actual VF flying was going to be done by professional soldiers and he just needed to add some veracity to some reaction shots.



Some how I doubt all the pilots used in all the movies are military. They can't do that now. There's quite military or former military I'd imagine, especially for the Zentraedi but not all. There's just too many VF-1s needed in a time when the UN Spacy didn't even have VF-1s. They'd of had to rent them and hire their owners. Like they do in movies now. They didn't hire a military pilot when they mounted VF-1 FAST Packs on Basara's VF-19. They used Basara. (Where he got his flight and combat training, I don't know. I also don't know why they didn't rent Milia's VF-1 and hire her to fly it. Just Plot reasons I guess.) And didn't one of Max's and Milia's daughters have her own custom Quadlunn? Was she in the military? How about Graham and his wife? Were they in the military? Police?


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
As for the Civilian Destroid not engaging in combat, have you seen Patlabor? The whole reason Patrol Labors were created was because civilians were engaging in combat. Why should Macross civilian destroids be any different? They just can't engage in ranged combat. At least without hands and a gun pod.

Yes I have, actually... the reason the Tokyo Metropolitan Police invested in their own Labor force was to deal with civilian crimes involving Labors. There's the once-a-season sort of incident where they deal with illegal testing of military labors (usually by Schaft Europe), but a lot of what they're up against is ne'er-do-wells armed with what amounts to stolen construction equipment. That said, much of a Labor's control setup is strictly manual or has to be pre-programmed from manual input while a Destroid has a much more sophisticated onboard computer that keeps most tasks automatic. That, combined with the fact that most civilian-use mecha lack a Fire Control System and other necessary hardware, would make it impossible or nearly impossible for them to engage in combat since they'd be unable to operate ranged weaponry. Taking manual control of limbs and punching could maybe do some minor property damage, but the unarmored Destroid Work is just going to ruin its hands by punching an actual armored military mecha.


Operated manually. Kind of like a Battlepod. The VF-1 also has foot peddles for operating the legs. Right? Doesn't Roy instruct Rick/Hikaru in their use? You'd also have noticed that the first Patlabors were just civilian labors with paint jobs and flashing lights. You'd also have noticed that the newer Patlabors are armed with guns and while they may not be as sophisticated as Military Labors (They're probably not even as good as M7's Police Mecha's.) they could and did engage in ranged combat.

The lack of a fire control system might make the mecha easier to pilot as there are less systems to learn. That's why I suggested the Military Technology Penalty for Civilian Pilots. It doesn't make combat impossible though. It just makes it a lot more difficult.

I am also sure that the Work Destroid would need repairs after punching a combat mecha. However, if a full size Zentraedi can rip a VF-1 apart with his bare hands, a Civilian Destroid is still going to do some damage. It wouldn't be a good idea but that's why Police have mecha of there own. Just incase something like that happens. Not that one actually needs to shoot to be in combat. Dennis and Hibiki took the VC-079 in combat and all they shot was video footage.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:24 pm
  

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Knight

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Sambot wrote:
By having two separate skills you're saying that the mecha are fundamentally different.

Granted, in this case that is pretty much EXACTLY what I'm saying.

When Macross II talks about a "Civilian Valkyrie", it does not refer to a military-issue Valkyrie that has been disarmed and sold off to a civilian owner. It is a specific - and separate - class of craft that are designed for exclusively non-military use. It is unarmed, unarmored, lacks a Battroid mode, and is aerodynamically a radically different design that prioritizes stable handling and fuel efficient flight with much less powerful engines than a military Valkyrie. It is as different from a military Valkyrie as a civilian small jet is from a military jet fighter, which justifies a separate skill both in the M2 RAW and an updated M2 using RT2e (given that RT2e's rules already divide Pilot skills up that way).



Sambot wrote:
They're not. A VF-1 does not stop being a VF-1 because it's owned by a civilian.

Assuming, of course, that it started life as a VF-1 in the first place. The "garden variety" civilian-owned Valkyrie in the main Macross timeline is a detuned version of an unarmed training aircraft that's been reengineered for lower performance and more forgiving handling for non-combat civilian use. It may be a VF-1 structurally, but under the hood it may be a very different aircraft once all is said and done. (Like the "replica" aircraft used on Uroboros in Macross 30 that use a mixture of custom and aftermarket parts from the VF-5000.)

But the Macross II mecha in question that that skill is for was never a military design at any point.



Sambot wrote:
If you really don't want to use skill penalties, I'd recommend customizing Macross II's skill definitions a bit. Basically separate out the Piloting and Combat from the Valkyrie skill so it's more like the Destroid skill. Although some combat type technics are still going to be learned as Pilots need to know how to get out of situations even if they're not in combat.

I say that because Robotech doesn't have civilian Mecha. (I'm not sure Macross did either when Macross II came out.) Right now I can only think of 4 civilians operating mecha in Robotech. Rick at the beginning of Macross. Rook and Rand and a mayor in New Generation. And the last one owned drones.

The topic under discussion is updating the Macross II game to use the RT2e ruleset. Unfortunately, RT2e's ruleset means that military Pilot skills confer basic-level combat ability as-is. So there's ample justification for maintaining a separate Civilian skill for mecha when there is a separate non-military version of those mecha incapable of engaging in combat like a "hobby" Valkyrie, the Destroid Work, or Macross II's Civilian Valkyrie series.

(And yes, Macross II was the first title to introduce the concept of civilian-owned mecha in the franchise... followed shortly by Macross 7 two years later.)



Sambot wrote:
You don't have to be in the military to learn tactics. You also don't have to be a military pilot to dogfight. Besides books, video game, classes, there's places where you can rent a plane and go dogfighting. You also can't use weapon systems when the weapons have been disabled or removed. Sure they could be replaced, which is why VT-1C are stolen by pirates. There was also Graham and his wife's VF-1. Plus all the thieves and pirates and whale hunters operating VF-1As, VT-1Cs and VA-3Cs.

There's also Rook and Rand operating Cyclones and Alpha Fighters. They are skills that can be learned. They're civilians. They took their mecha into combat. There's also Basara taking his VF-19 into Combat. There's the War Correspondent OCC in Macross II. It's an example of a Civilian OCC with combat training.

There's a difference between an armchair understanding of air combat tactics and the military's practical training in the application of tactics. The RT2e military Pilot skills give the character the benefits of having received the military's practical training in tactics. That's not something you can really learn from playing video games, reading books, or doing a ride-along with a retired combat pilot as part of an "extreme" stunt plane thrill ride.

Yeah, it is possible to re-arm a disarmed military-spec Valkyrie using black market connections... but that, in and of itself, is a crime and means you run the risk of being arrested for possession of illegal weaponry, shot down and jailed as an unlawful combatant, or worse. The poachers in Dynamite 7 were buying their gear on the black market because they had an extremely profitable hustle with the unlawful hunting of Vahla Ena for the fold carbon they naturally produce. The only thing keeping them from ending up very VERY dead was that the planetary government of Zola was operating VFs that were a full generation older and armed exclusively with non-lethal weaponry. There are some planets that do offer specific training and licensing for civilians to operate armed VFs, but that comes with its own risks. (There's a "Reality Ensues" moment in Macross Delta where several main characters are arrested by an enemy government and gently reminded at their trial that mercenaries are unlawful combatants in wartime and that as such they're not eligible to be treated as prisoners of war.)



Sambot wrote:
Quote:
the war correspondent has a complete understanding of military procedure, rank, law and conduct. This character is also likely to have had been a soldier with past military experience or has some degree of combat training. The war. correspondent will also know how to use a weapon, has "sources" and friends within the military and has combat field experience. Field experience means the war correspondent will not panic under fire and has come to terms with the horrors of war.

Yeah... this is one of the more entertainingly wrong things in the old Macross II RPG. Not just in terms of the Macross setting, but reality too.

War correspondents with actual military experience are vanishingly rare creatures. The vast majority are simply journalists, photojournalists, or videographers who are willing to go to dangerous places for money. It's possible for a war correspondent to know how to use a weapon, but they are absolutely forbidden from doing so. In Macross II, it would be literally impossible for them to since all combat takes place in space and they'd be recording from an unarmed Civilian Valkyrie or from the decks of a UN Forces warship. (I'd also question the "come to terms with the horrors of war" part as SNN War Correspondent Dennis Lone was an alcoholic and the "will not panic under fire" given that Hibiki had a protracted freakout mid-battle.)



Sambot wrote:
Some how I doubt all the pilots used in all the movies are military. They can't do that now. There's quite military or former military I'd imagine, especially for the Zentraedi but not all. There's just too many VF-1s needed in a time when the UN Spacy didn't even have VF-1s. They'd of had to rent them and hire their owners. Like they do in movies now.

You're assuming every VF seen in the films is also real... many of the ships and fighters shown are holographic or added in afterwards using computer animation, and it's also been acknowledged that in cases where the right model of aircraft is not available they'll use what is available and "hide the crime" with digital effects as the makers of Birdhuman did when they filmed the VF scenes using a number of VF-25s and pilots from SMS and digitally edited the footage to make them look like VF-0's.

Over 5,000 VF-1s were made in the military's initial mass production run, and more were made afterwards. It would not be hard for the Earth New UN Forces to lay hands on dozens or hundreds of 'em for a project like that. Especially in the late 2020s when they were still being widely used.

(It's probably a lot easier for filmmakers to get military buy-in for movies like that in Macross's future given that VFs are the backbone of the New UN Forces and that even a medium-size emigrant fleet has as many fighters on hand as the largest contemporary air force today... the 37th Long-Distance Emigrant Fleet had 1,800 VF-11 Thunderbolts, at last report the USAF operates 1,840 fighters in total.)



Sambot wrote:
They didn't hire a military pilot when they mounted VF-1 FAST Packs on Basara's VF-19. They used Basara.

Technically, they did... Basara's VF-19 Custom was a military special operations prototype and Basara was classified as an Irregular serving as its test pilot on behalf of his military handler Ray Lovelock.



Sambot wrote:
And didn't one of Max's and Milia's daughters have her own custom Quadlunn? Was she in the military? How about Graham and his wife? Were they in the military? Police?

Emilia Jenius had a custom Queadluun-series suit, yes... and it did have live weapons. But as noted above, in the main timeline there are some worlds where that kind of thing is legal with appropriate licenses. The Hoyly family owned a disarmed aftermarket VF-1A that'd been outfitted for conservation work and was later repaired with VT-1C parts after sustaining damage. It did not carry any lethal weapons, according to Zolan law.



Sambot wrote:
Operated manually. Kind of like a Battlepod. The VF-1 also has foot peddles for operating the legs. Right? Doesn't Roy instruct Rick/Hikaru in their use?

The Regult has a high level of manual operation, but it's not quite like that. Taking manual control of a limb on a VF is a slow, tedious process meant for precision work. (And no, a VF pilot is not manually controlling the Battroid's feet. All Roy did was quickly instruct Hikaru on what inputs would correct his Battroid's body posture so he could stand up properly.)



Sambot wrote:
The lack of a fire control system might make the mecha easier to pilot as there are less systems to learn. That's why I suggested the Military Technology Penalty for Civilian Pilots. It doesn't make combat impossible though. It just makes it a lot more difficult.

The lack of an FCS makes it impossible to use a ranged weapon, flat out. No missiles, no guns. On a VF or Destroid, the pilot is not manually aiming those weapons. The control AI is taking direction from the pilot's optical tracker and combining that with sensor data fed to the FCS in order to compute a firing solution and move the mecha's body in such a way that the weapon is aimed at a target. Without the FCS, the inputs to aim a ranged weapon aren't there.



Sambot wrote:
I am also sure that the Work Destroid would need repairs after punching a combat mecha. However, if a full size Zentraedi can rip a VF-1 apart with his bare hands, a Civilian Destroid is still going to do some damage. It wouldn't be a good idea but that's why Police have mecha of there own. Just incase something like that happens. Not that one actually needs to shoot to be in combat. Dennis and Hibiki took the VC-079 in combat and all they shot was video footage.

Yeah, but the Zentradi doesn't need to be programmed to punch something... if the Destroid's motion management program doesn't have "punch" as an option because it was designed for use handling freight, you're out of luck. (It's like how, in Patlabor, that one developer essentially tried to get SV1 to build a motion management database for them for a military program by loaning them one of their state of the art Labors and then stealing the data. If the mecha isn't programmed to perform that action, then it can't perform that action.)

Hibiki and Dennis took their VC-079 into a combat zone, but at no point did they have to do any fighting. They were not engaged by anyone, the one enemy that got close was shot down by someone else, and otherwise they just flew around and took photos.

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:41 am
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:48 am
Posts: 257
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sambot wrote:
By having two separate skills you're saying that the mecha are fundamentally different.

Granted, in this case that is pretty much EXACTLY what I'm saying.

When Macross II talks about a "Civilian Valkyrie", it does not refer to a military-issue Valkyrie that has been disarmed and sold off to a civilian owner. It is a specific - and separate - class of craft that are designed for exclusively non-military use. It is unarmed, unarmored, lacks a Battroid mode, and is aerodynamically a radically different design that prioritizes stable handling and fuel efficient flight with much less powerful engines than a military Valkyrie. It is as different from a military Valkyrie as a civilian small jet is from a military jet fighter, which justifies a separate skill both in the M2 RAW and an updated M2 using RT2e (given that RT2e's rules already divide Pilot skills up that way).


Yet it doesn't stop being a Valkyrie. A Jeep is still a Jeep whether or not it's designed for the Military or Civilian. Lots of civilian vehicles end up being used by the military and lots of military vehicles end up being used by civilians. That it's unarmed, unarmed, and is aerodynamically different doesn't change that. And that's where skill penalties come in. All those differences are why Veritech Pilots get a bonus on one craft but not every craft. Because they're different from their main Mecha and the pilot isn't quite as familiar with them. It's no different in this case. And while the VC-079 doesn't have a Battloid form, it does have legs. If you can walk in GERWALK Mode you can walk in Battloid.

As for Pilot Jet and Pilot Jet Fighter, Jet Fighter includes combat flying, which is redundant now with Aeronautics and Combat Flying skills. I say that because a Jet is a Jet. We don't have separate skills for Pilot Airplane and Pilot Fighter Airplane. We did used to have skills for single Engine Airplane and Twin Engine Airplane. There's a big difference between the two just in civilian planes. Differences like more powerful engines, rotary engines or inline engines, even where the engines and pops are located whether or not is civilian or military or in some cases used by both. All of those things will effect a plane's handling.

Pilot Automobile used to be separated out in to Automatic and Clutch, and Pick-up truck. There also used to be Pilot Private Jet, Commercial Jet, and Fighter Jet skills. Skills get combined because they were similar enough that any differences could be handled with skill penalties. Even Instrument Rating and other skills have been combined or dropped. Never driven a clutch before? -15% Don't have your instrument rating or Read Sensory Equipment? -10%, 20% at night. Other skills didn't because of civilian and military but we now have skills for that so we don't need multiple Jet skills. We don't need multiple Helicopter skills either really. Military training should provided the military skills.

Personally, I'd prefer more skills but there is a point where the basics are the same. A WWI fighter pilot could fly a Jumbo Jet or a Jet Fighter because the controls are the same. Doing more beyond keeping the plane in the air would require help but they could do that much. Me, I can switch between an automatic and a clutch and a pick-up truck with ease. I've even scared my mom and neighbor backing the truck up to the neighbors stairs to load a big screen TV for them. My mom will still reach for the clutch when driving for an automatic. She can drive a car with a push button transmission. I wouldn't have a clue. My Grandpa knew all about how how to start Model T Fords with their magnetos and hand cranks. I might get it started eventually but I could keep it on the road once it's going.

Basically similar skills do overlap. Where they don't is, training, specialization and skill penalties. Piloting of Aircraft is the general overlapping skill. Everything else is specialization. It's like Military Characters get Military Etiquette as a base level automatically. A character with Pilot Single Engine Airplane can fly a fighter, performing stunts and even engaging in combat can also be attempted. The rules allow it but the odds of success without the skill is low. To be more successful they need more training. A Fighter Pilot gets Combat Flying as part of their training. A Civilian can get similar training to a Fighter Pilot "Aeronautics" but they can't engage in the same things with the same skill as the Fighter Pilot. The Fighter Pilots training will give them an edge. That's just going one on one in the same aircraft with the same piloting skill % in a friendly skirmish. Put them in an actual combat situation and the Civilian's capabilities are going to drop rapidly do to penalties. The Fighter Pilot's skills may also drop but not to the degree of the Civilians.

Hikaru flew a his stunt plane into a formation with other stunt pilots. His Aeronautics skills meshed with their Combat Flying skills. He also flew a VF-1D using his Pilot Jet skill. The Pilot Jet skill overlapped with the Pilot Valkyrie skill, which he didn't have then. When he suddenly found himself in combat he freaked out and got shot down. His surprise and freaking out resulted in a massive amount of skill penalties. Everything that happened after that, was either because he didn't have a Battloid piloting skill or because he was in a situation that he wasn't prepared for and overwhelmed. It wasn't because he wasn't a capable pilot. I think he'd of done better taking off with the rest of the squadron but he wouldn't have been happy.


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Sambot wrote:
They're not. A VF-1 does not stop being a VF-1 because it's owned by a civilian.

Assuming, of course, that it started life as a VF-1 in the first place. The "garden variety" civilian-owned Valkyrie in the main Macross timeline is a detuned version of an unarmed training aircraft that's been reengineered for lower performance and more forgiving handling for non-combat civilian use. It may be a VF-1 structurally, but under the hood it may be a very different aircraft once all is said and done. (Like the "replica" aircraft used on Uroboros in Macross 30 that use a mixture of custom and aftermarket parts from the VF-5000.)

But the Macross II mecha in question that that skill is for was never a military design at any point.


That just means the performance is different, it's still a VF-1. You can detune a Mustang and it will still be a Mustang.

A craft doesn't have to be designed for the military to be used by the military. A craft also doesn't have to be intended for combat to see combat. The VC-079 used in Macross II saw combat.


Quote:
The topic under discussion is updating the Macross II game to use the RT2e ruleset. Unfortunately, RT2e's ruleset means that military Pilot skills confer basic-level combat ability as-is. So there's ample justification for maintaining a separate Civilian skill for mecha when there is a separate non-military version of those mecha incapable of engaging in combat like a "hobby" Valkyrie, the Destroid Work, or Macross II's Civilian Valkyrie series.

(And yes, Macross II was the first title to introduce the concept of civilian-owned mecha in the franchise... followed shortly by Macross 7 two years later.)


Yes and because Robotech doesn't really deal with civilian mecha some creativity is needed. I disagree that there need to be completely separate skills for piloting when one will work. The Anime doesn't support it. In fact the Anime shows a VT-1C being stolen so that it could be used in combat. It just needs some customizing.

Robotech 2E does give us a mecha skill that's Piloting only. So it would apply to the refit Macross Destroids and Destroid Work. Why not have a Veritech/Valkyrie skill that does the same? Again, a VF-1 doesn't stop being a VF-1 just because it was downgraded or even intentionally made for civilian use. So the performance is different. So is the performance from a VF-1A and a VF-1S and a VF-1X and a VF-1XX and a VE-1. They're all VF-1s and covered by the same skill. The differences in performance just means a skill penalty until the pilot is familiar with that model.

Cool! I thought so. :)


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There's a difference between an armchair understanding of air combat tactics and the military's practical training in the application of tactics. The RT2e military Pilot skills give the character the benefits of having received the military's practical training in tactics. That's not something you can really learn from playing video games, reading books, or doing a ride-along with a retired combat pilot as part of an "extreme" stunt plane thrill ride.


That is where skill penalties come from. Even Combat Pilots learn in a class room. Then they go out and do it. They do it in simulators and they do it in their aircraft. And they do it again and again and again until things become automatic. Civilians can learn the same skills but usually not as often or with the same intensity as a Combat Pilot. So they can do it better than someone with no training at all but not as good as a Combat Pilot.




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Yeah, it is possible to re-arm a disarmed military-spec Valkyrie using black market connections... but that, in and of itself, is a crime and means you run the risk of being arrested for possession of illegal weaponry, shot down and jailed as an unlawful combatant, or worse. The poachers in Dynamite 7 were buying their gear on the black market because they had an extremely profitable hustle with the unlawful hunting of Vahla Ena for the fold carbon they naturally produce. The only thing keeping them from ending up very VERY dead was that the planetary government of Zola was operating VFs that were a full generation older and armed exclusively with non-lethal weaponry. There are some planets that do offer specific training and licensing for civilians to operate armed VFs, but that comes with its own risks. (There's a "Reality Ensues" moment in Macross Delta where several main characters are arrested by an enemy government and gently reminded at their trial that mercenaries are unlawful combatants in wartime and that as such they're not eligible to be treated as prisoners of war.)


I never said it was legal or even a good idea. Just that it could be done. The VT-1W Work Valkyrie does have "weaponry" onboard. Whatever that thing is that replaces the left hand. Welding/Cutting torch? Milia's VF-1J was still fully combat capable, and loaded. Like you said, the presence and legality of weapons depends on individual governments and if they'll issue permits or not. I'm sure that even the VT-1W would have it's weapon rendered inoperable when sold to a "civilian". The basic fact remains though that it's still a VF-1. What's his name from Delta didn't have a problem piloting Valkyries. He had a problem with combat. Combat is a separate skill, not piloting.


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Yeah... this is one of the more entertainingly wrong things in the old Macross II RPG. Not just in terms of the Macross setting, but reality too.

War correspondents with actual military experience are vanishingly rare creatures. The vast majority are simply journalists, photojournalists, or videographers who are willing to go to dangerous places for money. It's possible for a war correspondent to know how to use a weapon, but they are absolutely forbidden from doing so. In Macross II, it would be literally impossible for them to since all combat takes place in space and they'd be recording from an unarmed Civilian Valkyrie or from the decks of a UN Forces warship. (I'd also question the "come to terms with the horrors of war" part as SNN War Correspondent Dennis Lone was an alcoholic and the "will not panic under fire" given that Hibiki had a protracted freakout mid-battle.)


That war correspondents with military backgrounds are a vanishing breed doesn't make the anime wrong. And while civilian versions may be forbidden to fire a weapon it has happened because the people shooting at them aren't going to stop shooting and ask if anyone has a press card. They either get shot or shoot back. As for the anime, that the VC-079 wasn't armed didn't stop them from going into combat. It just meant that they couldn't shoot.

(Coming to terms with the horror of war can take many forms. Unfortunately alcoholism is one of those ways :( Freaking out also happens. It's what happens after, do you stay freaked out or get on with the job?)


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You're assuming every VF seen in the films is also real... many of the ships and fighters shown are holographic or added in afterwards using computer animation, and it's also been acknowledged that in cases where the right model of aircraft is not available they'll use what is available and "hide the crime" with digital effects as the makers of Birdhuman did when they filmed the VF scenes using a number of VF-25s and pilots from SMS and digitally edited the footage to make them look like VF-0's.


Nope. Not assuming. Not every VF-1 was real but many were. Accuracy can also vary. In some cases they will use CGI or cosmetics to cover the crime. In other cases they just don't bother.


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Over 5,000 VF-1s were made in the military's initial mass production run, and more were made afterwards. It would not be hard for the Earth New UN Forces to lay hands on dozens or hundreds of 'em for a project like that. Especially in the late 2020s when they were still being widely used.


Most likely, it be the studio procuring the VF-1s needed since the UN started retiring VF-1s in 2020. They could still get plenty of military cooperation though. They still would have been easier to get in the last 2020's though than decades later. So that movie would have been using VF-1s. A more modern movie would be mixing VF-1s and VT-1s and more CGI.


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(It's probably a lot easier for filmmakers to get military buy-in for movies like that in Macross's future given that VFs are the backbone of the New UN Forces and that even a medium-size emigrant fleet has as many fighters on hand as the largest contemporary air force today... the 37th Long-Distance Emigrant Fleet had 1,800 VF-11 Thunderbolts, at last report the USAF operates 1,840 fighters in total.
)

Studios would definitely get military cooperation. That the military would have enough VF-1s for a movie gets debatable. The further away from their ongoing use, the more likely that actual VF-1s won't be available and studios are going to use CGI.

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Sambot wrote:
They didn't hire a military pilot when they mounted VF-1 FAST Packs on Basara's VF-19. They used Basara.

Technically, they did... Basara's VF-19 Custom was a military special operations prototype and Basara was classified as an Irregular serving as its test pilot on behalf of his military handler Ray Lovelock.


So Basara was a civilian, contracted to the military?


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Sambot wrote:
And didn't one of Max's and Milia's daughters have her own custom Quadlunn? Was she in the military? How about Graham and his wife? Were they in the military? Police?

Emilia Jenius had a custom Queadluun-series suit, yes... and it did have live weapons. But as noted above, in the main timeline there are some worlds where that kind of thing is legal with appropriate licenses. The Hoyly family owned a disarmed aftermarket VF-1A that'd been outfitted for conservation work and was later repaired with VT-1C parts after sustaining damage. It did not carry any lethal weapons, according to Zolan law.


The point isn't that they were lethal or legal, it's that they had weapons and didn't have to have different skills. (I'm not sure the Hoyle family's VF was a -1A. It had two seats.)




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Sambot wrote:
Operated manually. Kind of like a Battlepod. The VF-1 also has foot peddles for operating the legs. Right? Doesn't Roy instruct Rick/Hikaru in their use?

The Regult has a high level of manual operation, but it's not quite like that. Taking manual control of a limb on a VF is a slow, tedious process meant for precision work. (And no, a VF pilot is not manually controlling the Battroid's feet. All Roy did was quickly instruct Hikaru on what inputs would correct his Battroid's body posture so he could stand up properly.)


I don't think it's that slow and tedious. Somethings I think are programmed in, brining up the gun pod, where others like picking up a person rely more on manual controls than a computer.


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Sambot wrote:
The lack of a fire control system might make the mecha easier to pilot as there are less systems to learn. That's why I suggested the Military Technology Penalty for Civilian Pilots. It doesn't make combat impossible though. It just makes it a lot more difficult.

The lack of an FCS makes it impossible to use a ranged weapon, flat out. No missiles, no guns. On a VF or Destroid, the pilot is not manually aiming those weapons. The control AI is taking direction from the pilot's optical tracker and combining that with sensor data fed to the FCS in order to compute a firing solution and move the mecha's body in such a way that the weapon is aimed at a target. Without the FCS, the inputs to aim a ranged weapon aren't there.


No ranged combat without a computer? I wonder how they managed in WWI, WWI, Korea... They even used iron sites on the guns in Patlabor. When they bothered to aim. Even if the gun pods don't have a site like that, Zentraedi Weapons would. And that's if your aiming. You could still adjust your fire if you miss. Too far to the right and high? Adjust left and lower. No computer.



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Yeah, but the Zentradi doesn't need to be programmed to punch something... if the Destroid's motion management program doesn't have "punch" as an option because it was designed for use handling freight, you're out of luck. (It's like how, in Patlabor, that one developer essentially tried to get SV1 to build a motion management database for them for a military program by loaning them one of their state of the art Labors and then stealing the data. If the mecha isn't programmed to perform that action, then it can't perform that action.)


The only differences in motion between reaching for something and punching are speed and a closed fist. Strikes can still be made with open fists. Computers are also to aid in piloting. Not do all the piloting. Otherwise there wouldn't be a skill or a pilot. Computers are used for routine things. Like walking and running. Manual control could still be used if wanted or needed like pulling oneself out of a building.

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Hibiki and Dennis took their VC-079 into a combat zone, but at no point did they have to do any fighting. They were not engaged by anyone, the one enemy that got close was shot down by someone else, and otherwise they just flew around and took photos.


That just means that they were lucky or stupid or both because a pilot without any kind of training in evasive maneuvers wouldn't willingly get near combat. That was also one time. We don't know how many times Dennis took the VC-079 out and had to do more than just watch.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 6:37 pm
  

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Knight

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Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
Sambot wrote:
Yet it doesn't stop being a Valkyrie. A Jeep is still a Jeep whether or not it's designed for the Military or Civilian.

To be frank, this faulty generalization you're pushing keeps getting worse and you keep trying to justify it with examples that objectively contradict your argument.

First, and foremost, the creators of the OVA explicitly established that the Civilian Valkyrie is a separate category of vehicle. On that basis alone, your argument is objectively wrong.

Secondly, the only real trait that the Civilian Valkyrie shares with military-use Valkyries is that it is a transformable aircraft. Otherwise, they are as dissimilar as a commercial jet and military fighter jet. Radically different aerodynamics and handling, radically different capabilities, completely different levels of technology, you name it. The RPG separates Pilot skills for civilian vehicles from the military's Pilot skills for essentially the exact same reason. This is why "Pilot: Jet Aircraft" and "Military: Jet Fighters" are separate skills... because even though they share a superficial similarity, they're two very different families of craft in every respect.

Third, with respect to your attempted example, as a professional with direct experience I can state that that's not true. Military vehicles designed for combat are VERY different from consumer vehicles made by the same company. There are similarities at the most basic level like that they're both technically light trucks, but once you get past that level they share rather little in common. Powertrain requirements are very different, right down to the level of what fuels can be used (military heavy duty vehicles have to be able to burn JP-8, a type of jet fuel also used in military diesel engines and in stationary generators, which a normal vehicle would not be able to run on). Safety design is quite different, materials are different, handling is quite different, the scope of available design features for the exterior and cabin are quite different, etc.



Sambot wrote:
All those differences are why Veritech Pilots get a bonus on one craft but not every craft.

That is completely different... as in, it's literally a completely different, completely separate skill from the one we're talking about. That's the Mecha Elite Combat Training skill that reflects the character having received extensive combat training on a particular model of craft. We're talking about the Pilot skills, here. No Civilian is able to take MECT because it's a military-only skill.



Sambot wrote:
As for Pilot Jet and Pilot Jet Fighter, Jet Fighter includes combat flying, which is redundant now with Aeronautics and Combat Flying skills. I say that because a Jet is a Jet.

"A jet is a jet" only at the most basic level. These skills are based on practical usage. The training to fly the kind of aircraft covered by Pilot: Jet Aircraft - a small or large commercial jet aircraft like a Learjet or a Boeing 747-700 - is radically different from the training to fly a military fighter jet covered by Military: Jet Fighters. Knowing how to fly a cargo plane doesn't prepare someone to fly a supersonic fighter aircraft. It can make the subsequent training shorter since they'd be familiar with the basic mechanics of flight, but you're talking about the difference between handling a big rig and an Indy car. Yeah, they're both cars, but they don't perform or handle anything like the same.

That is why these are separate skills in the RPG. Even in the real world, a pilot's license that certifies you to fly a cargo plane absolutely does not qualify you to fly a high-performance jet or vice versa.

You fundamentally misunderstand what the Aeronautics and Combat Flying skills are. These are representative of additional training above and beyond the base level provided to a typical civilian or military pilot. They do not make the knowledge of air combat strategy conferred by the military piloting skills redundant because you explicitly have to have those skills beforehand in order to take the Combat Flying skill, which is also explicitly not available to anyone outside the military.



Sambot wrote:
Personally, I'd prefer more skills but there is a point where the basics are the same.

But you keep missing the fact that these skills don't represent "the basics"... these skills represent trained proficiency.

As in, having one of these Pilot skills even at Level 1 is functionally equivalent to being a fully trained and licensed operator of that class of vehicle.



Sambot wrote:
Me, I can switch between an automatic and a clutch and a pick-up truck with ease. I've even scared my mom and neighbor backing the truck up to the neighbors stairs to load a big screen TV for them. My mom will still reach for the clutch when driving for an automatic. She can drive a car with a push button transmission. I wouldn't have a clue. My Grandpa knew all about how how to start Model T Fords with their magnetos and hand cranks. I might get it started eventually but I could keep it on the road once it's going.

Basically similar skills do overlap. Where they don't is, training, specialization and skill penalties.

Well, yes... similar skills DO overlap. But your example here is ONE skill. Just one. Pilot: Automobile. None of that is complicated or difficult and it all falls under one specific class of vehicle.



Sambot wrote:
A craft doesn't have to be designed for the military to be used by the military. A craft also doesn't have to be intended for combat to see combat. The VC-079 used in Macross II saw combat.

In this setting, it actually kinda does because of how the airframe control AI's motion management works.

The VC-079 in Macross II did not, at any point, participate in combat. The only sense in which it "saw" combat was that its pilot and passenger were literal spectators to the opening battle of the Mardook conflict. It is not capable of engaging in combat, by design.



Sambot wrote:
Yes and because Robotech doesn't really deal with civilian mecha some creativity is needed. I disagree that there need to be completely separate skills for piloting when one will work. The Anime doesn't support it. In fact the Anime shows a VT-1C being stolen so that it could be used in combat. It just needs some customizing.

Robotech 2E does give us a mecha skill that's Piloting only. So it would apply to the refit Macross Destroids and Destroid Work. Why not have a Veritech/Valkyrie skill that does the same?

This doesn't require any great leaps of logic... all that's needed is, like in the M2 RAW, a Pilot skill for those classes of mecha that don't confer any military knowledge just like how the game includes the separate Civilian-use skills for non-military jet aircraft or boats.

RT2e does not provide any mecha pilot skills that do not also explicitly provide familiarity with things like weapons systems and tactics. So, one needs to be added to cover those mecha for the civilians that should not have that knowledge. Again, this is not complicated. This is something the RPG already does for several other categories of vehicle.



Sambot wrote:
Again, a VF-1 doesn't stop being a VF-1 just because it was downgraded or even intentionally made for civilian use. So the performance is different. So is the performance from a VF-1A and a VF-1S and a VF-1X and a VF-1XX and a VE-1. They're all VF-1s and covered by the same skill. The differences in performance just means a skill penalty until the pilot is familiar with that model.

That's not even remotely what we're talking about here, though... so please give up on this particular strawman or at least send him off with Dorothy to see the wizard. :roll: :lol:



Sambot wrote:
That is where skill penalties come from. Even Combat Pilots learn in a class room. Then they go out and do it. They do it in simulators and they do it in their aircraft. And they do it again and again and again until things become automatic. Civilians can learn the same skills but usually not as often or with the same intensity as a Combat Pilot. So they can do it better than someone with no training at all but not as good as a Combat Pilot.

Again, you're missing the point that these skills don't represent basic familiarity... they're representative of practiced proficiency. Something that the person has had practical training in. For example, the Cook domestic skill doesn't mean the character owns a cookbook. It means the character has practical experience in the selection, planning, and preparation of meals. Having the military Pilot skills doesn't mean that the character sat in a lecture on tactics, it means they have practiced the application of those tactics in training exercises and/or real situations.



Sambot wrote:
What's his name from Delta didn't have a problem piloting Valkyries. He had a problem with combat. Combat is a separate skill, not piloting.

... there is literally an entire episode of the Macross Delta TV series where the A-plot is devoted to Hayate having problems with piloting Valkyries. Not just combat, but basic piloting.

Spoiler:
Seriously. The episode opens with Hayate doing a ridealong in Mirage's VF-31 and, despite the presence of an ISC he gets so airsick that the very first thing he does after disembarking is puke all over her. And that's before we even get to the opening! In his first practical lesson, he does such a terrible job that he almost immediately stalls his VF-1EX and has to be recovered by the training AI yanking control away from him. He repeats it again mere seconds later. As Mirage puts it, "If we let you fly the way you wanted, you wouldn't be in the air for long." She turns the training support AI off and he loses control of the VF-1EX almost immediately... then almost throws up in his helmet. He spends most of his final exam getting clowned on by his instructor for not being able to control the VF he's flying, disables the training AI, promptly puts the aircraft into an unrecoverable stall so severe air traffic control preemptively calls up the emergency crews, and only narrowly avoids a fatal crash.


In the 2e ruleset, basic combat ability is a part of the Pilot skill because being a proficient pilot requires you to be familiar with all onboard systems of your aircraft. Combat Training, on the other hand, is a separate skill.



Sambot wrote:
That war correspondents with military backgrounds are a vanishing breed doesn't make the anime wrong. And while civilian versions may be forbidden to fire a weapon it has happened because the people shooting at them aren't going to stop shooting and ask if anyone has a press card. They either get shot or shoot back.

The anime never establishes at any point that SNN's war correspondent had a military background.

Also, you're wrong. It is prohibited under international law for war reporters and other wartime journalists to carry or discharge a firearm in a combat situation. Doing so strips them of their protections as civilians under international law and makes them unlawful combatants who are not eligible for protection under international law. That means that the enemy forces can shoot to kill legally, and have the legal right to arrest, try, and convict them of war crimes. This is why practically every news outlet that has war correspondents has a policy expressly prohibiting them from open or concealed carry of any kind of weapon. If they are caught with a weapon, they may even forfeit the protection of friendly forces due to international law.



Sambot wrote:
Most likely, it be the studio procuring the VF-1s needed since the UN started retiring VF-1s in 2020. They could still get plenty of military cooperation though. They still would have been easier to get in the last 2020's though than decades later. So that movie would have been using VF-1s. A more modern movie would be mixing VF-1s and VT-1s and more CGI.

Not quite... the New UN Forces had phased the VF-4 in to the point that it became the main variable fighter of the New UN Forces in 2020. That doesn't mean they were retiring the VF-1s at that time. The military was still modernizing VF-1's for continued service at that point, which is when the VF-1X and other late variants emerged. It's not clear when the military began selling VF-1's off, but if the pattern of later generations fits it would not have been until after the VF-11's rollout was underway in the early 2030s AFTER the film came out. VF-11 production didn't begin in earnest until December 2030.



Sambot wrote:
Studios would definitely get military cooperation. That the military would have enough VF-1s for a movie gets debatable. The further away from their ongoing use, the more likely that actual VF-1s won't be available and studios are going to use CGI.

There is that, yes... though it's worth noting that the VF-1 remained in active military combat service clear into the 2040's, particularly with the Special Forces. It also remained in service as a popular training aircraft even later than that.



Sambot wrote:
So Basara was a civilian, contracted to the military?

Basara might not have paid attention to the fact prior to the official establishment of Sound Force, but yes... Basara was, at least legally, a New UN Spacy Irregular.



Sambot wrote:
I don't think it's that slow and tedious. Somethings I think are programmed in, brining up the gun pod, where others like picking up a person rely more on manual controls than a computer.

Normally, the movements of a VF's moving parts are controlled by the airframe control AI. Asserting manual control of a limb slows things down quite a bit.

In Ep2 of Macross Frontier, Alto has to assert manual control of his (borrowed) VF-25F's right arm to pick Ranka up. The necessary precision takes him over 15 seconds, even though neither of them is moving and he's an experienced EX-Gear operator and has prior training on VF operation. He effectively already has several levels in Pilot: Valkyrie and it still takes him a full melee of intense and uninterrupted concentration just to safely pick her up.

It really is THAT slow and tedious... because, in normal operation, kinesthetics is THAT automated.



Sambot wrote:
No ranged combat without a computer? I wonder how they managed in WWI, WWI, Korea... They even used iron sites on the guns in Patlabor. When they bothered to aim. Even if the gun pods don't have a site like that, Zentraedi Weapons would. And that's if your aiming. You could still adjust your fire if you miss. Too far to the right and high? Adjust left and lower. No computer.

... I'm sure you can understand how that might be rather different to fighting in a giant robot or even a modern fighter with a radar-controlled lead-calculating gunsight. The Type-98AV Ingrams in Patlabor were clumsy, slow, and aiming was a largely manual process with a high degree of error. Suitable for shooting at slow moving piece of construction equipment, not for short-ranged shooting at something that can pull 30G in straightline acceleration.

Like everything on a VF, the weaponry is computer-controlled. The pilot designates targets, but all the mechanical actions to aim the weapon are done by the control AI. Firing without a FCS would be like trying to use a radar-guided missile without any radar systems. Your odds of actually hitting anything are basically zero. Standing still to take careful aim with strictly manual controls really is not an option as it's only likely to get you shot. Iron-sight aiming effectively isn't a thing.

EDIT: (Also, just in case you weren't aware... machine-assisted aiming was a technology introduced in WW2.)



Sambot wrote:
The only differences in motion between reaching for something and punching are speed and a closed fist. Strikes can still be made with open fists. Computers are also to aid in piloting. Not do all the piloting. Otherwise there wouldn't be a skill or a pilot. Computers are used for routine things. Like walking and running. Manual control could still be used if wanted or needed like pulling oneself out of a building.

I see the disconnect we're having here... you're assuming a level of computerized control way below what it actually is.

In terms of how a mecha like a Destroid or Valkyrie is controlled, almost everything is managed by the integrated control AI on at least some level. It's a complex AI-based command interpreter which takes the pilot's control inputs, discerns the pilot's intent, and converts those instructions into actionable instructions for the onboard systems. On a Destroid or Battroid, it manages body posture, limb placement for movement and aiming of weapons, balance, reading the terrain, and coordinating the data from all the different onboard sensors to give the pilot an all-in-one picture of the area around the mecha. In the air, it governs the orientation of various thrust-vectoring nozzles, control surfaces, and other aids to maneuverability like verniers, boundary layer control and vortex flow control systems, etc. to produce the pilot's desired maneuvers. It exists the way it does so the pilot can focus on piloting, so one man or woman can focus on their battlefield objectives and not on little stuff like where it's safe to place their right foot next or what angle the arm needs to be at for a gun to hit the target. Even aiming is done by tracking the movements of the pilot's eyes and angle of their helmet to determine what the pilot is looking at on the displays or out through the canopy, compare it to sensor data from the various onboard sensors, tag it as a target, and sort out a firing solution and move the mecha's limbs appropriately to aim the active weapons system at it.

In normal operation, manual control over the limbs is not needed. Even actions as context-specific as extracting that VF-1D from the building it fell into were performed by the control AI in response to pilot inputs about direction and posture.

With such extensive computer control to make the whole thing work with a one-man crew, that's why not having the software to fight means you can't fight. The mecha literally DOES NOT KNOW how to kick or punch someone unless it has combat software.

_________________
Macross2.net - Home of the Macross Mecha Manual

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:01 am
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 6539
Location: WI
Sambot wrote:
As for Pilot Jet and Pilot Jet Fighter, Jet Fighter includes combat flying, which is redundant now with Aeronautics and Combat Flying skills. I say that because a Jet is a Jet. We don't have separate skills for Pilot Airplane and Pilot Fighter Airplane. We did used to have skills for single Engine Airplane and Twin Engine Airplane. There's a big difference between the two just in civilian planes. Differences like more powerful engines, rotary engines or inline engines, even where the engines and pops are located whether or not is civilian or military or in some cases used by both. All of those things will effect a plane's handling.

Are we sure Jet Fighter is rendered redundant with Combat Flying? I looked over the skill, the skill Combat Flying doesn't render Jet Fighter redundant. It looks like a pilot supplemental skill, much like how you need RSI or WS or RC/MECT/MC to do things.

As far as the skill list goes, yes there is a case of skills converging/splitting off on a line-basis within the Palladium system. Heck Palladium Fantasy (2E) has all Modern Weapons under 1 Skill, so I wouldn't read to much into it. While Palladium claims to have a megaversal system, that system is far from the plug-and-play it is advertised as (heck skills are not universal, they can and do change between lines even in terms of just starting proficiency).

Seto wrote:
With such extensive computer control to make the whole thing work with a one-man crew, that's why not having the software to fight means you can't fight. The mecha literally DOES NOT KNOW how to kick or punch someone unless it has combat software.

While I would go so far to agree that you could not fight effectively at all in ranged combat, I think you are over looking the possibility of "improvised" maneuvers for close range combat that work by:
-"glitch" the software to do something it shouldn't normally be able to do (Video Games I would suspect are not nearly as complex as the AI, and gamers find ways to glitch the programming to do things not originally intended). In theory this should be possible, though it depends on just how "glitch" free the software is.
-new application of existing maneuver w/n their range-of-motion set.
-basic applications of physics (body blocks, but depending on any construction "tools")
-software hacks/hardware mods to improve its performance in a non-combat role that have unintended consequence of making some existing maneuvers more useful in combat. While there is likely some limit to what is legal in-universe, we also know it happens in universe that illegal activities that amount to hack/mods exist (Sharon Apple).

Now I do not expect any of these to allow a non-combat unit to function at the same level of overall effectiveness as a combat unit in a similar position. That would just be silly, but if people historically can turn farm tools into weapons (and they did) I'm sure a creative pilot (especially one with combat skills) can turn a non-combat mecha unit into a possibly passable close range fighter.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:45 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:48 am
Posts: 257
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sambot wrote:
Yet it doesn't stop being a Valkyrie. A Jeep is still a Jeep whether or not it's designed for the Military or Civilian.

To be frank, this faulty generalization you're pushing keeps getting worse and you keep trying to justify it with examples that objectively contradict your argument.

First, and foremost, the creators of the OVA explicitly established that the Civilian Valkyrie is a separate category of vehicle. On that basis alone, your argument is objectively wrong.


Sure its a separate vehicle. A VF-1 is a separate vehicle from a VF-11 but they're still Valkyries. That doesn't change.


Quote:
Secondly, the only real trait that the Civilian Valkyrie shares with military-use Valkyries is that it is a transformable aircraft. Otherwise, they are as dissimilar as a commercial jet and military fighter jet. Radically different aerodynamics and handling, radically different capabilities, completely different levels of technology, you name it. The RPG separates Pilot skills for civilian vehicles from the military's Pilot skills for essentially the exact same reason. This is why "Pilot: Jet Aircraft" and "Military: Jet Fighters" are separate skills... because even though they share a superficial similarity, they're two very different families of craft in every respect.


And yet there isn't a separate skill for Prop Fighters. A Cessna 172 has radically different everything from a P-51 Mustang. Yet they're both covered with Pilot Airplane. What separated military from civilian is combat training. Training that would be covered with Combat Flying. If you can pilot a jet you can pilot a jet. The RPG also doesn't really get into civilians owning former military equipment. They would need to be able to operate that equipment. Robot Piloting covers Piloting Only. Combat is a separate skill. Why shouldn't Jet Aircraft be the same? Why not Valkyries? They're learning the operation of the vehicle. Not combat.



Quote:
Third, with respect to your attempted example, as a professional with direct experience I can state that that's not true. Military vehicles designed for combat are VERY different from consumer vehicles made by the same company. There are similarities at the most basic level like that they're both technically light trucks, but once you get past that level they share rather little in common. Powertrain requirements are very different, right down to the level of what fuels can be used (military heavy duty vehicles have to be able to burn JP-8, a type of jet fuel also used in military diesel engines and in stationary generators, which a normal vehicle would not be able to run on). Safety design is quite different, materials are different, handling is quite different, the scope of available design features for the exterior and cabin are quite different, etc.


All of which is covered by the skill penalties, especially the Military Technology Penalty. That is however mostly for repairs. And it doesn't cover all vehicles used by the military. Many are just civilian vehicles stripped of any frills.

As far as handling goes, again skill penalties. No a 747 isn't going to handle the same as a F-15 but neither will a J 35F Draken. They are all Jet Aircraft and they all handle differently. Just like a VF-1 isn't going to handle the same as a VF-11 or a VA-3.

Quote:

Sambot wrote:
All those differences are why Veritech Pilots get a bonus on one craft but not every craft.

That is completely different... as in, it's literally a completely different, completely separate skill from the one we're talking about. That's the Mecha Elite Combat Training skill that reflects the character having received extensive combat training on a particular model of craft. We're talking about the Pilot skills, here. No Civilian is able to take MECT because it's a military-only skill.


Nope.
Quote:
Mecha: Pilot Veritechs. The knowledge and ability to pilot ALL transformable veritech mecha including Alpha. Beta. Shadow Fighter, Cyclone and others. past and present.
Piloting Bonus & Penalties: A +13% skill bonus applies to ONE area of Piloting Specialty with Veritech Fighters
Note: Must select Mecha Elite Combat Training to get additional
combat bonuses for Veritechs.


An Alpha Pilot has a +13% skill bonus to that type of VF only but they can still fly every VF. Jet Aircraft should be treated similarly. A Pilot of a 747 should have a bonus to Piloting Commercial Jets. A F-15 Pilot should have a bonus to flying Jet Fighters. We could even narrow that down more so the biggest bonus is on a specific vehicle. So Fighter Pilot Bob has Pilot Jet Aircraft with a +10% to Piloting Jet Fighters with another +3% when flying F-15s. Commercial Pilot Joe could still fly an F-15 but starts at the Pilot Jet Aircraft % and then goes down from there with penalties.

A Civilian isn't going to be able to take MECT (normally) because it isn't allowed. That doesn't mean that they can't go into combat. They do so with no bonuses.




Quote:
Sambot wrote:
As for Pilot Jet and Pilot Jet Fighter, Jet Fighter includes combat flying, which is redundant now with Aeronautics and Combat Flying skills. I say that because a Jet is a Jet.

"A jet is a jet" only at the most basic level. These skills are based on practical usage. The training to fly the kind of aircraft covered by Pilot: Jet Aircraft - a small or large commercial jet aircraft like a Learjet or a Boeing 747-700 - is radically different from the training to fly a military fighter jet covered by Military: Jet Fighters. Knowing how to fly a cargo plane doesn't prepare someone to fly a supersonic fighter aircraft. It can make the subsequent training shorter since they'd be familiar with the basic mechanics of flight, but you're talking about the difference between handling a big rig and an Indy car. Yeah, they're both cars, but they don't perform or handle anything like the same.

That is why these are separate skills in the RPG. Even in the real world, a pilot's license that certifies you to fly a cargo plane absolutely does not qualify you to fly a high-performance jet or vice versa.


Again, that is were the skill penalties come in. A Jet aircraft is a Jet Aircraft. The basics are the same. It's the details that will get you. You're essentially going to an alien craft. You can operate it but not without problems. The Anime even shows this. Hikaru was able to pilot a VF-1D, taxi, take off, flight as a civilian. He did all those things using his Pilot Jet Aircraft Skill. How could he do that if his civilian skill didn't allow him to operate military aircraft? According to what you're saying that isn't possible. Yet, he did just that.

And no that doesn't mean you're qualified. At best you're doing basic maneuvers and even then you won't be at your best. Hence all the skill penalties. The further you get away from your normal vehicle (or anything really) the more penalties you will have. And F-15 Pilot will have skill penalties when transferring to an F-14. Those penalties won't be as steep though compared to transferring to a KC-10.


Quote:
You fundamentally misunderstand what the Aeronautics and Combat Flying skills are. These are representative of additional training above and beyond the base level provided to a typical civilian or military pilot. They do not make the knowledge of air combat strategy conferred by the military piloting skills redundant because you explicitly have to have those skills beforehand in order to take the Combat Flying skill, which is also explicitly not available to anyone outside the military.


You have to know how to fly before you can fight. Sure you can learn things before hand but doing them before you have flight experience isn't recommended.
No, non military personnel can't take Combat Flying. However, they can take the civilian version Aeronautics.




Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Personally, I'd prefer more skills but there is a point where the basics are the same.

But you keep missing the fact that these skills don't represent "the basics"... these skills represent trained proficiency.

As in, having one of these Pilot skills even at Level 1 is functionally equivalent to being a fully trained and licensed operator of that class of vehicle.


And again that's where skill penalties apply.
Quote:
Advanced. Unknown. or Alien Machines and Technologies: A good rule of thumb is a skill penalty of ·30% or -40% when trying to figure out, operate, repair, or use such mechanisms and technologies
beyond the normal range of familiar technology.


For this example, Normal range of familiar is a Commercial Jet. That doesn't mean that the Pilot can't fly a Jet Fighter. It means that because it's unknown, and probably advanced, that the pilot will be operating that Fighter with a big skill penalty of at least 30%. And that penalty can get up to 95%. I wouldn't go that high for a Commercial Pilot but I would give it to someone who can only fly prop planes.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Me, I can switch between an automatic and a clutch and a pick-up truck with ease. I've even scared my mom and neighbor backing the truck up to the neighbors stairs to load a big screen TV for them. My mom will still reach for the clutch when driving for an automatic. She can drive a car with a push button transmission. I wouldn't have a clue. My Grandpa knew all about how how to start Model T Fords with their magnetos and hand cranks. I might get it started eventually but I could keep it on the road once it's going.

Basically similar skills do overlap. Where they don't is, training, specialization and skill penalties.

Well, yes... similar skills DO overlap. But your example here is ONE skill. Just one. Pilot: Automobile. None of that is complicated or difficult and it all falls under one specific class of vehicle.


None of it is complicated of difficult? Have you driven a car with a manual transmission? It's not as easy as an automatic. They used to be separate skills. The skill itself even includes far more vehicles than it used to. It used to be just cars. Now it covers all automobiles.

Yet you also mentioned Semis and Race Cars. Odds are I'd stall out a lot but once I got it moving I could keep it on the road. If you'd like a different skill though. Pilot Airplanes. It currently lumps, old propeller, single, and twin engine prop planes. It also includes read sensory equipment so the pilot can operate the radar. There's a few problems with that.

Those planes are different, especially between single and twin engine planes. That's why they used to be separate skills. There's an even bigger difference between your average civilian plane and a fighter or a stunt plane. That's never been separated out though. Most prop planes don't have sensory equipment or weapon system either. They're s separate skill. Being able to fly on instruments allow is also a separate skill and rating (Instrument Rating). But now it's all good.

Pilot Helicopters. This skill varies between games and either includes everything, military and civilian, or it separates them out. And they're not strictly civilian or military either.

And here's what I've been saying from Robotech 1st Ed.
Quote:
Helicopter: Includes the small, two seater, observation types; large transport and assault.
Jet: Includes the fan jet, commercial jet and jet fighter.





Quote:
Sambot wrote:
A craft doesn't have to be designed for the military to be used by the military. A craft also doesn't have to be intended for combat to see combat. The VC-079 used in Macross II saw combat.

In this setting, it actually kinda does because of how the airframe control AI's motion management works.

The VC-079 in Macross II did not, at any point, participate in combat. The only sense in which it "saw" combat was that its pilot and passenger were literal spectators to the opening battle of the Mardook conflict. It is not capable of engaging in combat, by design.


Sorry. I can't see that. Hibiki didn't freak out because they were safe. They could have spectated from behind the lines. Instead they flew into danger and even picked up one of the enemy.



Quote:

Sambot wrote:
Yes and because Robotech doesn't really deal with civilian mecha some creativity is needed. I disagree that there need to be completely separate skills for piloting when one will work. The Anime doesn't support it. In fact the Anime shows a VT-1C being stolen so that it could be used in combat. It just needs some customizing.

Robotech 2E does give us a mecha skill that's Piloting only. So it would apply to the refit Macross Destroids and Destroid Work. Why not have a Veritech/Valkyrie skill that does the same?

This doesn't require any great leaps of logic... all that's needed is, like in the M2 RAW, a Pilot skill for those classes of mecha that don't confer any military knowledge just like how the game includes the separate Civilian-use skills for non-military jet aircraft or boats.

RT2e does not provide any mecha pilot skills that do not also explicitly provide familiarity with things like weapons systems and tactics. So, one needs to be added to cover those mecha for the civilians that should not have that knowledge. Again, this is not complicated. This is something the RPG already does for several other categories of vehicle.


Except you're not just separating vehicles out by class but by type as as well. You also aren't taking into account civilian owned surplus military mecha. Or that vehicles within a class are fundamentally the same.
And no you don't need to separate out civilian from military. Again Civilians own Military Equipment. That is in the anime. That's in real life. You're arguing against it. The rules do allow characters to attempt to do things they don't have skills for. Although, again, if there's no weapon systems they can't operate them. And again, tactics can be learned by civilians. We even have a skill for it when it comes to aircraft. It's called, again, Aeronautics. Combat Driving is also not limited to the military.

Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Again, a VF-1 doesn't stop being a VF-1 just because it was downgraded or even intentionally made for civilian use. So the performance is different. So is the performance from a VF-1A and a VF-1S and a VF-1X and a VF-1XX and a VE-1. They're all VF-1s and covered by the same skill. The differences in performance just means a skill penalty until the pilot is familiar with that model.

That's not even remotely what we're talking about here, though... so please give up on this particular strawman or at least send him off with Dorothy to see the wizard. :roll: :lol:


Yet we are talking about that. Civilians can own all of the VF-1 types, even the VF-1X++. They can own all kinds of VF types. Yet you want me to believe that because a civilian owns one they they suddenly become an entirely different class of mecha.




Quote:
Again, you're missing the point that these skills don't represent basic familiarity... they're representative of practiced proficiency. Something that the person has had practical training in. For example, the Cook domestic skill doesn't mean the character owns a cookbook. It means the character has practical experience in the selection, planning, and preparation of meals. Having the military Pilot skills doesn't mean that the character sat in a lecture on tactics, it means they have practiced the application of those tactics in training exercises and/or real situations.


Which is where the skill penalties come in. Read them. They cover this. A pilot can be proficient in piloting a military craft. That's Piloting. Not fighting. If they want to fight they can try but odds of success are low without obtaining more skills first.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
What's his name from Delta didn't have a problem piloting Valkyries. He had a problem with combat. Combat is a separate skill, not piloting.

... there is literally an entire episode of the Macross Delta TV series where the A-plot is devoted to Hayate having problems with piloting Valkyries. Not just combat, but basic piloting.


And after he learned to fly he had to learn to fight. One skill followed the other.


Quote:
In the 2e ruleset, basic combat ability is a part of the Pilot skill because being a proficient pilot requires you to be familiar with all onboard systems of your aircraft. Combat Training, on the other hand, is a separate skill.


I would hope that if one were going to own and operate a mecha, of any class or type, that one would be familiar with all the onboard systems. That said, you do know it is possible to fly a plane without knowing all the systems? In fact you have to be proficient at flying under Visual Flight Rules before you can go for your Instrument Rating.
So yes, someone could be familiar with piloting a Mecha without knowing how to fire it's weapons.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
That war correspondents with military backgrounds are a vanishing breed doesn't make the anime wrong. And while civilian versions may be forbidden to fire a weapon it has happened because the people shooting at them aren't going to stop shooting and ask if anyone has a press card. They either get shot or shoot back.

The anime never establishes at any point that SNN's war correspondent had a military background.


True but military experience isn't a pre-requisite for being a War Correspondent.


Quote:
Also, you're wrong. It is prohibited under international law for war reporters and other wartime journalists to carry or discharge a firearm in a combat situation. Doing so strips them of their protections as civilians under international law and makes them unlawful combatants who are not eligible for protection under international law. That means that the enemy forces can shoot to kill legally, and have the legal right to arrest, try, and convict them of war crimes. This is why practically every news outlet that has war correspondents has a policy expressly prohibiting them from open or concealed carry of any kind of weapon. If they are caught with a weapon, they may even forfeit the protection of friendly forces due to international law.


Who said anything about legal? Bullets and bombs don't stop to check for ID. Neither do soldiers in combat. The law is no protection in combat. It hasn't stopped war correspondents from being killed. It hasn't stopped civilians from being killed. People are going to do what it takes to survive. That may mean run and hide. It may mean pick up a gun.




Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Most likely, it be the studio procuring the VF-1s needed since the UN started retiring VF-1s in 2020. They could still get plenty of military cooperation though. They still would have been easier to get in the last 2020's though than decades later. So that movie would have been using VF-1s. A more modern movie would be mixing VF-1s and VT-1s and more CGI.

Not quite... the New UN Forces had phased the VF-4 in to the point that it became the main variable fighter of the New UN Forces in 2020. That doesn't mean they were retiring the VF-1s at that time. The military was still modernizing VF-1's for continued service at that point, which is when the VF-1X and other late variants emerged. It's not clear when the military began selling VF-1's off, but if the pattern of later generations fits it would not have been until after the VF-11's rollout was underway in the early 2030s AFTER the film came out. VF-11 production didn't begin in earnest until December 2030.


The Compendium says that the VF-4 was to replace the VF-1 by 2020. Sure the remaining were upgraded but those that had been replaced would have been surplus. Production ending in 2015 isn't really accurate though if small production runs and civilian variants continue to be made.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Studios would definitely get military cooperation. That the military would have enough VF-1s for a movie gets debatable. The further away from their ongoing use, the more likely that actual VF-1s won't be available and studios are going to use CGI.

There is that, yes... though it's worth noting that the VF-1 remained in active military combat service clear into the 2040's, particularly with the Special Forces. It also remained in service as a popular training aircraft even later than that.


True. Some of them could have been used.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
So Basara was a civilian, contracted to the military?

Basara might not have paid attention to the fact prior to the official establishment of Sound Force, but yes... Basara was, at least legally, a New UN Spacy Irregular.


And her got all his training in boot camp without noticing?



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I don't think it's that slow and tedious. Somethings I think are programmed in, brining up the gun pod, where others like picking up a person rely more on manual controls than a computer.

Normally, the movements of a VF's moving parts are controlled by the airframe control AI. Asserting manual control of a limb slows things down quite a bit.

In Ep2 of Macross Frontier, Alto has to assert manual control of his (borrowed) VF-25F's right arm to pick Ranka up. The necessary precision takes him over 15 seconds, even though neither of them is moving and he's an experienced EX-Gear operator and has prior training on VF operation. He effectively already has several levels in Pilot: Valkyrie and it still takes him a full melee of intense and uninterrupted concentration just to safely pick her up.

It really is THAT slow and tedious... because, in normal operation, kinesthetics is THAT automated.


Like I said, somethings are programmed in and others need manual control.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
No ranged combat without a computer? I wonder how they managed in WWI, WWI, Korea... They even used iron sites on the guns in Patlabor. When they bothered to aim. Even if the gun pods don't have a site like that, Zentraedi Weapons would. And that's if your aiming. You could still adjust your fire if you miss. Too far to the right and high? Adjust left and lower. No computer.

... I'm sure you can understand how that might be rather different to fighting in a giant robot or even a modern fighter with a radar-controlled lead-calculating gunsight. The Type-98AV Ingrams in Patlabor were clumsy, slow, and aiming was a largely manual process with a high degree of error. Suitable for shooting at slow moving piece of construction equipment, not for short-ranged shooting at something that can pull 30G in straightline acceleration.

Like everything on a VF, the weaponry is computer-controlled. The pilot designates targets, but all the mechanical actions to aim the weapon are done by the control AI. Firing without a FCS would be like trying to use a radar-guided missile without any radar systems. Your odds of actually hitting anything are basically zero. Standing still to take careful aim with strictly manual controls really is not an option as it's only likely to get you shot. Iron-sight aiming effectively isn't a thing.


That doesn't mean the head lasers or the gun pod can't be fired the "old fashioned way" Fire and adjust if needed. It does mean that someone who can use the FCS is going to be shooting at the other before they can get into range.

Quote:
EDIT: (Also, just in case you weren't aware... machine-assisted aiming was a technology introduced in WW2.)


I'm very aware. That's what my grandpa was being trained to use in a B-29. Not every aircraft was so equipped though



Quote:
I see the disconnect we're having here... you're assuming a level of computerized control way below what it actually is.

(snip)
With such extensive computer control to make the whole thing work with a one-man crew, that's why not having the software to fight means you can't fight. The mecha literally DOES NOT KNOW how to kick or punch someone unless it has combat software.



The problem with that thought is that if the computer can't tell what you want to punch, how can it tell what you want to pick up? There's also manual control. Throwing a punch is less complicated than picking up a person. Either way, nothings going to happen until you tell it to do something.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:34 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:48 am
Posts: 257
ShadowLogan wrote:
Are we sure Jet Fighter is rendered redundant with Combat Flying? I looked over the skill, the skill Combat Flying doesn't render Jet Fighter redundant. It looks like a pilot supplemental skill, much like how you need RSI or WS or RC/MECT/MC to do things.


I think so. Under the Robotech 1E the Pilot Jet skill covered civilian and military jets. Combat Flying would really be something learned after learning to fly. After all not every Military Pilot is a Combat Pilot nor is every Civilian Pilot is Stunt Pilot. The Character could be a ferry pilot, like the WASPs in WWII. Or you could just love airplanes and you jump at the chance to own one.


Quote:
As far as the skill list goes, yes there is a case of skills converging/splitting off on a line-basis within the Palladium system. Heck Palladium Fantasy (2E) has all Modern Weapons under 1 Skill, so I wouldn't read to much into it. While Palladium claims to have a megaversal system, that system is far from the plug-and-play it is advertised as (heck skills are not universal, they can and do change between lines even in terms of just starting proficiency).


That is so true and something I've been working on for a while. I really would love a Skill book. I'm okay with differences in starting proficiency. That's just a difference in training. The skills themselves though, should be pretty much available in every game. The problem is that some games lump multiple skills together while others separate out some but not others. Which is the problem we've been having here.

Like I said, I think there should be a basic skill and then specialization and upgrading. That lets characters operate similar things but at a lower skill percentage and the possibility of gowning penalties they further they get away from the familiar.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:11 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 am
Posts: 5450
Location: New Frontier Shipyard, Earth-Moon L5
Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
ShadowLogan wrote:
Are we sure Jet Fighter is rendered redundant with Combat Flying? I looked over the skill, the skill Combat Flying doesn't render Jet Fighter redundant. It looks like a pilot supplemental skill, much like how you need RSI or WS or RC/MECT/MC to do things.

It IS a supplemental skill.



ShadowLogan wrote:
While I would go so far to agree that you could not fight effectively at all in ranged combat, I think you are over looking the possibility of "improvised" maneuvers for close range combat that work by:

By the time this technology makes its way into civilian hands, it's pretty mature. The Civilian Valkyries of Macross II's timeline first become available in 2054, by which point the integrated control AI technology has nearly half a century of development behind it.

I'm not really sure what could be done as far as improvising an attack with something like a Civilian Valkyrie. They're unarmed, lack arms, and are also unarmored. Kicking isn't really an option since they only have Fighter and GERWALK modes. There's no arms to punch or grapple with. The only attack I could really see one doing would be ramming, but that would essentially be suicidal since it'd be an unarmored vehicle ramming an armored one. There's more freedom with something like the main timeline's Destroid Work since it actually has arms and hands, and it's very versatile (given the protagonist of Macross Delta was able to make the one "dance" at his day job handling freight at the Al Shahal spaceport). That said, it's still unarmed and unarmored, about the best the skilled operator could get away with after circumventing collision alarms would be maybe swinging something around as a bludgeon like a cargo container, girder, etc. Some jobs using them do have what I'd suppose would be potentially weaponizable tools like the drills used for asteroid mining.



ShadowLogan wrote:
-software hacks/hardware mods to improve its performance in a non-combat role that have unintended consequence of making some existing maneuvers more useful in combat. While there is likely some limit to what is legal in-universe, we also know it happens in universe that illegal activities that amount to hack/mods exist (Sharon Apple).

Sharon Apple wasn't so much a hack or mod as intentional use of illegal hardware. You wouldn't want your forklift becoming self-aware and deciding to Kill All Humans, would you?










Sambot wrote:
Sure its a separate vehicle. A VF-1 is a separate vehicle from a VF-11 but they're still Valkyries. That doesn't change.

No, a separate category of vehicle... like how a mail truck is different from a muscle car.



Sambot wrote:
And yet there isn't a separate skill for Prop Fighters.

ShadowLogan and I have both already touched on why certain skills are consolidated vs. split in any given game. If this were a setting where propeller-driven military craft existed, then there'd likely be one or more separate skills for it depending on the needs of the setting. There are separate skills for civilian vs. military jets precisely because the setting necessitates it with the existence of privately owned non-military jet aircraft and jet fighters.

Mind you, why would there need to be a skill for ANY propeller-driven aircraft in the Macross II RPG? Those ceased to exist on Earth over eighty years before the era the game is set in.



Sambot wrote:
What separated military from civilian is combat training. Training that would be covered with Combat Flying.

As ShadowLogan and I have both pointed out to you, Combat Flying is a supplemental skill... it is not equivalent to combat training and the military pilot skills per RAW include training in combat maneuvers and proficiency with the vehicle's weapons. You are misrepresenting the content of the game as it is written.



Sambot wrote:
The RPG also doesn't really get into civilians owning former military equipment. They would need to be able to operate that equipment.

Why would it need to? The Macross II setting does not include civilian ownership of retired military equipment. Robotech only really has the one instance of it in the New Generation, as the people who join Scott's resistance group are trained by him and the other soldiers in the group and are resistance fighters not civilians from that point.

The only contextually-relevant place where that becomes an issue is in homebrew additions like my main timeline Macross expansions, where the setting does permit civilians to own and operate retired military hardware. For that, I have the Pilot: Civilian Valkyrie skill carried over from Macross II RAW and the Pilot: Civilian Destroid skill for locales where the law prohibits a civilian-owned mecha from being equipped for combat and the regular skills for ones owned by retired soldiers or people who have received appropriate military-style training as part of a planet's own licensing process for owning an armed Valkyrie (e.g. Uroboros's Hunters Guild).



Sambot wrote:
Robot Piloting covers Piloting Only. Combat is a separate skill.

As noted previously, this statement is true in the Macross II RPG RAW but false in the RT2e RAW due to the explicit incorporation of basic combat ability in the military pilot skills.

Therefore, as we are talking about updating Macross II to the RT2e ruleset, your statement is false.

Per the RT2e core book:
Robotech 2E Core Book (Manga Ed.) p274 wrote:
The ability to pilot mecha ([...]) means the character can operate it and use all sensors, features, and weapons of the mecha. HOWEVER, the pilot does so without the benefit of bonuses; [...]


The military skills also explicitly note that the Pilot skill includes training in basic operation, maneuvers, and strategy.



Sambot wrote:
They're learning the operation of the vehicle. Not combat.

Learning the operation of a military vehicle IS learning to use it in combat.

That is why the military Pilot skills explicitly represent training in things like combat tactics, weapon system operation, and military maneuvers.



Sambot wrote:
As far as handling goes, again skill penalties. No a 747 isn't going to handle the same as a F-15 but neither will a J 35F Draken. They are all Jet Aircraft and they all handle differently. Just like a VF-1 isn't going to handle the same as a VF-11 or a VA-3.

This is why the Pilot skill represents trained familiarity with a class of vehicles and there are specific supplemental skills like MECT to represent a high degree of familiarity with one particular model.

Your proposed solution of being overly general with skills and then applying penalties en masse is far less straightforward than simply dividing the skills logically based on vehicle type the way any normal person would.



Sambot wrote:
None of it is complicated of difficult? Have you driven a car with a manual transmission? It's not as easy as an automatic. They used to be separate skills. The skill itself even includes far more vehicles than it used to. It used to be just cars. Now it covers all automobiles.

Yes, as I said... none of that is complicated or difficult. My daily driver is an automatic, but I can drive a manual just as easily and have done for work and for pleasure. I've driven cars with CVTs, cars with experimental hybrid transmissions, and even cars without a transmission. I've driven century-old classic cars and prototypes of cars that will never be produced. Relatively minor differences in the handling and acceleration aside, most consumer automobiles are similar enough in their operation that I would not have any issue with Palladium putting small cars and light-duty trucks under one skill.

Where complications emerge that render a skill less applicable and justify having a separate skill is where the properties of the vehicle itself are changed enough that the handling is radically different... like an 18-wheeler, a limousine, an Indy car, or a military utility vehicle. For that exact reason, vehicles like that require separate training and licensing in the real world. Cars are far from the only type of transportation this applies to. That's where there are so many different types of pilot license for aircraft.



Sambot wrote:
Yet you also mentioned Semis and Race Cars. Odds are I'd stall out a lot but once I got it moving I could keep it on the road.

Yes, but that's operating with a related skill at a penalty. To actually proficiently operate it, you'd need training... which is what the skill explicitly represents.

Even at Level 1, having a Pilot skill means you are a proficient, trained, and licensed (where available) operator of that type of vehicle.



Sambot wrote:
Sorry. I can't see that. Hibiki didn't freak out because they were safe. They could have spectated from behind the lines. Instead they flew into danger and even picked up one of the enemy.

Hibiki exactly didn't freak out because they were in danger either. He freaked out because he didn't want to show the UN Spacy losing the fight to their audience.

They never engaged any enemy. Any enemy that approached them was shot down by someone else before it could pose a threat. Barring Hibiki's attempt to stop Dennis from shooting, he basically flew a straight-and-level course.

So no, the VC-079 did not engage in combat.



Sambot wrote:
Except you're not just separating vehicles out by class but by type as as well. You also aren't taking into account civilian owned surplus military mecha. Or that vehicles within a class are fundamentally the same.

1. No, the Civilian Valkyrie is explicitly placed as a separate class of craft by the OVA's creators.
2. No such animal in the Macross II setting. I have noted in previous posts how I handle civilian-owned retired military mecha in main timeline Macross homebrew games.
3. I'm not, because it's a fallacious argument on your part and repeated insistence will not make it less so.



Sambot wrote:
And no you don't need to separate out civilian from military. Again Civilians own Military Equipment. That is in the anime. That's in real life. You're arguing against it.

Yes, we do... because the RT2e Pilot skills explicitly include military training a civilian would not have access to incl. tactics and weapons system operation.

There is no civilian-owned military equipment in Macross II, so no it is not in the anime. It is in the main Macross timeline, but as noted most civilian mecha are disarmed and civilians aren't permitted to equip them with weaponry or the systems necessary to support it and are definitely not given military training in their operation, so a separate skill is still justified.



Sambot wrote:
Yet we are talking about that. Civilians can own all of the VF-1 types, even the VF-1X++. They can own all kinds of VF types. Yet you want me to believe that because a civilian owns one they they suddenly become an entirely different class of mecha.

No, we are not... because we are talking about Macross II here.

The stuff you're banging on about is from the main Macross timeline, not Macross II's timeline. Mind you, what you're saying isn't even correct for that since civilians are only permitted to own very specific types and models of VF with appropriate licensing.



Sambot wrote:
And after he learned to fly he had to learn to fight. One skill followed the other.

After he acquired the Pilot skill - which for military vehicle types explicitly includes training in the operation of weapons - he got the MECT skill for the combat bonuses.



Sambot wrote:
I would hope that if one were going to own and operate a mecha, of any class or type, that one would be familiar with all the onboard systems. That said, you do know it is possible to fly a plane without knowing all the systems? In fact you have to be proficient at flying under Visual Flight Rules before you can go for your Instrument Rating.
So yes, someone could be familiar with piloting a Mecha without knowing how to fire it's weapons.

That is not what the military Pilot skill represents, though. What you're describing is analogous to using Pilot: Civilian Valkyrie to attempt to operate a military Valkyrie.



Sambot wrote:
The Compendium says that the VF-4 was to replace the VF-1 by 2020.

As the MAIN variable fighter... not the only one. We know for a fact that the VF-1 continued in military front line service throughout the 2020s alongside several other replacement craft including both the VF-5 and VF-5000. When an aircraft is in the process of being phased out, they don't just throw them away. They might not be front line fighters anymore, but they're repurposed for training use and assigned to rear echelon units, and so on. The VF-4 was still being used as a squadron level training and testing aircraft in the 37th Long-Distance Emigrant Fleet in 2046 in Macross 7 Trash even though it'd lost main variable fighter status sixteen years earlier to the VF-11 and the VF-11's replacement was on deck. The Macross Frontier fleet only started to dispose of its VF-11s once they had the VF-25 in final testing, 28 years after its introduction.



Sambot wrote:
And her got all his training in boot camp without noticing?

It wasn't formal training, but he was schooled in VF operation by his adoptive father-figure and mentor Ray Lovelock, who was a former New UN Spacy elite squadron leader.

Basara was either sharp enough to know there were things he didn't want to know, or was so dim it took him fully half the series to notice he'd basically volunteered to be a military test pilot. Take your pick. I find them both equally amusing.



Sambot wrote:
That doesn't mean the head lasers or the gun pod can't be fired the "old fashioned way" Fire and adjust if needed. It does mean that someone who can use the FCS is going to be shooting at the other before they can get into range.

Eh... actually, it does, because the aiming functions of the lasers are not manually controlled. Unless the pilot wants to attempt some manual-control handstands to try and get someone into the gun's field of fire. That would actually be pretty funny to watch.



Sambot wrote:
The problem with that thought is that if the computer can't tell what you want to punch, how can it tell what you want to pick up? There's also manual control. Throwing a punch is less complicated than picking up a person. Either way, nothings going to happen until you tell it to do something.

The integrated control AI knows what you want to punch because it's in charge of sensor fusion and has access to the complete picture of what's physically around the mecha, and because it also got an input from the pilot's pointer looking at where they want to land the blow. All it has to do there is join up the dots to put Fist A on or through target B when instructed to attack.

Picking things up is more complex. The control AI is programmed to recognize certain objects that are made to be picked up and handled by it and can work with those automatically like a VF's gunpod or escape pod, or a Destroid Work's handheld tools for mining or construction. Picking up things it's not specifically programmed to pick up, like a person who's cowering on the ground, has to be done manually with the pilot steering the arm and controlling the grip pressure to ensure that they pick the person up safely and don't pop them like a grape. Throwing a punch on manual is going to be a bit difficult because manual control is over one limb at a time. You're not going to be able to lean into the punch and you're going to be stuck in place while you throw it meaning it's not going to land as hard. Assuming, of course, a civilian-use mecha's collision avoidance isn't going to abort the motion mid-gesture or you don't simply shatter the hand against a hard target.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:47 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 6539
Location: WI
Seto wrote:
Sharon Apple wasn't so much a hack or mod as intentional use of illegal hardware. You wouldn't want your forklift becoming self-aware and deciding to Kill All Humans, would you?

Sharon Apple might not be the best example for this purpose, but as it was illegal hardware being used in a civilian project. So we know civilians could get their hands on illegal hardware and use it. I wouldn't consider it a software hack, more of a hardware mod (the original system used a human being to complete the AI before the upgrade with illegal hardware). Now the AI wasn't complete (hence the human partner), but I don't know if it was originally designed to use said illegal hardware or not (if not I would consider it a hardware modification if it wasn't intended to use).

Seto wrote:
I'm not really sure what could be done as far as improvising an attack with something like a Civilian Valkyrie. They're unarmed, lack arms, and are also unarmored. Kicking isn't really an option since they only have Fighter and GERWALK modes. There's no arms to punch or grapple with. The only attack I could really see one doing would be ramming, but that would essentially be suicidal since it'd be an unarmored vehicle ramming an armored one. There's more freedom with something like the main timeline's Destroid Work since it actually has arms and hands, and it's very versatile (given the protagonist of Macross Delta was able to make the one "dance" at his day job handling freight at the Al Shahal spaceport). That said, it's still unarmed and unarmored, about the best the skilled operator could get away with after circumventing collision alarms would be maybe swinging something around as a bludgeon like a cargo container, girder, etc. Some jobs using them do have what I'd suppose would be potentially weaponizable tools like the drills used for asteroid mining.

I agree its more viable for the Destroid/Battroid type platforms than a 1/2-GERWALK like the M2 Civ. Valkyrie.

The VC-079 type platform would be very limited, from an articulated limb perspective it's essentially a Spartas Hovertank's intermediate mode from SDC:SC/RT and Jeanne/Dana did engage the Red Bioroid in Ep4/41 (x2, once jumping on its back and then again to break its grip from the front). Weather the VC-079 can sustain an impact of that nature is another matter, though it might not have to actually connect instead using a quick blast of directed engine exhaust like Hikaru/Rick does in Ep11 (this would require a GM to figure out how much damage engine exhaust would do at point-blank/near-point-blank range). They might also be able to "swatt" with those wingtip pods (each should be good for 1 hit at least), anywhere else and I'd be concerned about retaining functional status unless one is looking at a kamakazi. The type of opponent can also make a difference, a giant unarmored Zentran/Meltran is a lot different than one in battle armor (or power armor).


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:42 am
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 am
Posts: 5450
Location: New Frontier Shipyard, Earth-Moon L5
Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
ShadowLogan wrote:
Sharon Apple might not be the best example for this purpose, but as it was illegal hardware being used in a civilian project. So we know civilians could get their hands on illegal hardware and use it. I wouldn't consider it a software hack, more of a hardware mod (the original system used a human being to complete the AI before the upgrade with illegal hardware). Now the AI wasn't complete (hence the human partner), but I don't know if it was originally designed to use said illegal hardware or not (if not I would consider it a hardware modification if it wasn't intended to use).

... well, maybe if you put "civilian" in airquotes? Development of the Sharon Apple system was a joint effort between the Venus Sound Factory and a defense industry conglomerate called the Macross Concern. Sharon Apple wasn't a front for a military AI development program but the AI technology being developed was going to a lot of different places including the unmanned fighter prototype the Macross Concern was developing (the X-9 Ghost). That defense industry connection is how Marj Gueldoa was able to obtain the (illegal) bio-neural processor he used to "complete" Sharon that led to her going berserk. It's not quite something that a civilian (without serious connections) can get ahold of.

That said, a well-qualified civilian mechanic trained on mecha and with access to specialized tools is capable of customizing the settings of an integrated control AI. There have been a few characters that've displayed that level of skill like Katori Brown-Robbins from Macross R.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Weather the VC-079 can sustain an impact of that nature is another matter, though it might not have to actually connect instead using a quick blast of directed engine exhaust like Hikaru/Rick does in Ep11 (this would require a GM to figure out how much damage engine exhaust would do at point-blank/near-point-blank range).

Hm... I hadn't considered that. Engine exhaust probably wouldn't do anything to a mecha given that they're made out of materials with excellent heat resistance, but to an unarmored Zentradi it might prove injurious at close range and a miclone could find it potentially fatal at full power from the exhaust velocity and temperature. (So, borderline non-MD attack but still...)

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:15 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:48 am
Posts: 257
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sambot wrote:
Sure its a separate vehicle. A VF-1 is a separate vehicle from a VF-11 but they're still Valkyries. That doesn't change.

No, a separate category of vehicle... like how a mail truck is different from a muscle car.


Nope. Sorry. They're still automobiles. Automobiles is a category. Muscle Car is a sub category. '69 Dodge Charger is a type. A Mail Truck is a category. A Grumman LLV is a type. The same skill is used to drive both; Pilot Automobile. What you're trying to do is to make a VF-1 into a VHT. They're both Veritechs but they require completely different skill sets to operate. The first needs Pilot Jet and the second needs Pilot Hover Vehicle.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
And yet there isn't a separate skill for Prop Fighters.

ShadowLogan and I have both already touched on why certain skills are consolidated vs. split in any given game. If this were a setting where propeller-driven military craft existed, then there'd likely be one or more separate skills for it depending on the needs of the setting. There are separate skills for civilian vs. military jets precisely because the setting necessitates it with the existence of privately owned non-military jet aircraft and jet fighters.


Except the setting allows for the private ownership of former military mecha, and presumably other military vehicles. A Jet fighter doesn't stop being a jet fighter just because it's owned by a civilian.

Other games do have prop fighters. Even Macross had replicas but there isn't been a Pilot Prop Fighter skill. Why? Because what separates civilian from military is guns. The Fokker D.VII was a fighter plane. Remove the machine guns, or render inoperable, and now it's a civilian plane. Either way the Fokker D.VII is a single engine prop airplane. It doesn't suddenly become a Helicopter in the presence of weapons. Why should a Jet or a Valkyrie?


Quote:
Mind you, why would there need to be a skill for ANY propeller-driven aircraft in the Macross II RPG? Those ceased to exist on Earth over eighty years before the era the game is set in.


Why wouldn't there be prop planes? Prop planes far less expensive to build, operate and maintain then jet aircraft. They're what people learn to fly on. Like how people don't learn to drive in a Formula 1. You can get to places faster or take in views you can't see on the ground. Just because we don't see any doesn't mean there aren't any. And unless you're going to remove the Pilot Airplane skill from the list, you need to allow for their existence.


Sambot wrote:
What separated military from civilian is combat training. Training that would be covered with Combat Flying.

As ShadowLogan and I have both pointed out to you, Combat Flying is a supplemental skill... it is not equivalent to combat training and the military pilot skills per RAW include training in combat maneuvers and proficiency with the vehicle's weapons. You are misrepresenting the content of the game as it is written.

Quote:
Combat Flying: Similar to the skill Combat Driving, the Combat Flying skill represents a character's ability to fly in adverse weather and combat conditions.


The character's ability to fly in combat conditions.

Quote:
Military: Jet Fighters. Training includes flying. maneuvering. aerial combat strategies, and typical fighter jet weapon systems.


Maneuvering - kind of vague. Could be anything.
Aerial combat strategies - Sounds like classroom learning.
Weapon Systems - Why have a separate skill?

Quote:
Jet Aircraft. Includes large and small commercial transport jets


Where does the Fan Racer fit in? It isn't a commercial transport. It's not a Propeller Plane. The closest thing that fits is Jet Fighter. Unless you go with the older Pilot Jet skill which covers all jets. And please remember Hikaru/Rick did fly a VF-1D which if we go with you're "Civilian's can't fly military vehicles" should not have been possible.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
The RPG also doesn't really get into civilians owning former military equipment. They would need to be able to operate that equipment.

Why would it need to? The Macross II setting does not include civilian ownership of retired military equipment. Robotech only really has the one instance of it in the New Generation, as the people who join Scott's resistance group are trained by him and the other soldiers in the group and are resistance fighters not civilians from that point.

The only contextually-relevant place where that becomes an issue is in homebrew additions like my main timeline Macross expansions, where the setting does permit civilians to own and operate retired military hardware. For that, I have the Pilot: Civilian Valkyrie skill carried over from Macross II RAW and the Pilot: Civilian Destroid skill for locales where the law prohibits a civilian-owned mecha from being equipped for combat and the regular skills for ones owned by retired soldiers or people who have received appropriate military-style training as part of a planet's own licensing process for owning an armed Valkyrie (e.g. Uroboros's Hunters Guild).


Except Macross does allow the ownership of Military Mecha and Macross II is a sequel so civilian ownership of Military Mecha is possible. Granted by 2029 there's not likely to be many around but the possibility is still there. And again we don't need separate civilian and military skills for the same craft. A Tomahawk doesn't suddenly become a Battle Pod because the weapons are removed. A VF-1 doesn't suddenly become a M7 Police VTOL Mecha when it's weapons are removed. There's also the fact that a civilian flew a military VF-1D.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Robot Piloting covers Piloting Only. Combat is a separate skill.

As noted previously, this statement is true in the Macross II RPG RAW but false in the RT2e RAW due to the explicit incorporation of basic combat ability in the military pilot skills.

Therefore, as we are talking about updating Macross II to the RT2e ruleset, your statement is false.


And where things don't fit we improvise And the RT2r ruleset does separate out Piloting Mecha and Combat Mecha. This covers the converted Macross Destroids. Why not simply change the Pilot Veritechs skill to match? Doing so would cover all Valkyries, military, former military, and civilian.

Quote:
Per the RT2e core book:
Robotech 2E Core Book (Manga Ed.) p274 wrote:
The ability to pilot mecha ([...]) means the character can operate it and use all sensors, features, and weapons of the mecha. HOWEVER, the pilot does so without the benefit of bonuses; [...]


The military skills also explicitly note that the Pilot skill includes training in basic operation, maneuvers, and strategy.



Quote:
Mecha Elite Combat Training (MECT ). The ability to pilot mecha (see Battloids. Cyclones and Verirechs. below)


The very first sentence says to see those skills.

Quote:
Mecha: Pilot Battloids. Knowledge and training to pilot all non-trans formable human oid shaped mecha including the Bioroid Interceptor, Condor. cargo haulers. old-style Destroids. and similar
mecha. Piloting and basic operations without any combat training or bonuses.


Quote:
Mecha: Pilot Ground verirechs . Limited knowledge and training to pilot only the Cyclone motorcycle mecha or Silverback Veritech a-wheeled vehicle.


Quote:
Mecha: Pilot Veritechs. The knowledge and ability to pilot ALL transformable veritech mecha including the Motorcycles. This skill includes the Alpha. Beta. Shadow Fighter, Cyclone and others. past and present.


Pilot Battloids expressly says without combat training. The other two don't mention it. They all say
Quote:
Note: Must select Mecha Elite Combat Training to get additional combat bonuses




Sambot wrote:
They're learning the operation of the vehicle. Not combat.

Learning the operation of a military vehicle IS learning to use it in combat.

That is why the military Pilot skills explicitly represent training in things like combat tactics, weapon system operation, and military maneuvers.

I suggest that this
Quote:
means the character can operate it and use all sensors. features. and weapons of the mecha.
should be ignored. The references skills either don't include combat or don't mention it. Further more, you have to be able to operate the sensors to operate Mechs. Battloids, Destroids, Pods, etc. are enclosed instrument only cockpits. You're not looking out a window. You're relying on sensors for everything. Operating the sensors is essential to operating the mecha. Everything else can be learned after learning how to operate the mecha. Unless you're in the military, or have a very good reason, you don't get to learn them.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
As far as handling goes, again skill penalties. No a 747 isn't going to handle the same as a F-15 but neither will a J 35F Draken. They are all Jet Aircraft and they all handle differently. Just like a VF-1 isn't going to handle the same as a VF-11 or a VA-3.

This is why the Pilot skill represents trained familiarity with a class of vehicles and there are specific supplemental skills like MECT to represent a high degree of familiarity with one particular model.

Your proposed solution of being overly general with skills and then applying penalties en masse is far less straightforward than simply dividing the skills logically based on vehicle type the way any normal person would.


You missed were I said specializing in a similar fashion to the Pilot Veritech Skill. As in Pilot Fixed Wing Aircraft 50% Specializing in Jet Fighters +13%. Having the skill like this is supported in the anime with Hikaru/Rick being able to fly a Valkyrie/Veritech Fighter without any training. He could fly a jet so he could fly the Valkyrie/Veritech because it was a jet.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
None of it is complicated of difficult? Have you driven a car with a manual transmission? It's not as easy as an automatic. They used to be separate skills. The skill itself even includes far more vehicles than it used to. It used to be just cars. Now it covers all automobiles.

Yes, as I said... none of that is complicated or difficult. My daily driver is an automatic, but I can drive a manual just as easily and have done for work and for pleasure. I've driven cars with CVTs, cars with experimental hybrid transmissions, and even cars without a transmission. I've driven century-old classic cars and prototypes of cars that will never be produced. Relatively minor differences in the handling and acceleration aside, most consumer automobiles are similar enough in their operation that I would not have any issue with Palladium putting small cars and light-duty trucks under one skill.


Then you should know that some automobiles are more complicated than others and that not everyone can operate them. Many people cannot drive a manual transmission. A few will try but until they learn they won't be driving the car like they would an automatic.

Quote:
Where complications emerge that render a skill less applicable and justify having a separate skill is where the properties of the vehicle itself are changed enough that the handling is radically different... like an 18-wheeler, a limousine, an Indy car, or a military utility vehicle. For that exact reason, vehicles like that require separate training and licensing in the real world. Cars are far from the only type of transportation this applies to. That's where there are so many different types of pilot license for aircraft.


A limousine is just a fancy taxi. My truck is bigger than some limousines. The RV is bigger than the truck. 18 wheeler just has a few more gears than my car. An Indy car is just a lot faster. Military? That'd depend on the vehicle. They used to use the same pickups I've got now. Tanks have steering wheels now but I can see a separate skill for it. But you can also turn a truck into a tracked vehicle.

So yeah, there's lots of licenses but licenses don't determine the ability to operate a vehicle. You have to know how to operate the vehicle before you can take the test. Having a license just means you're free to operate on your own without a licensed person with you. Considering how some people drive I'm not sure how they got their license.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Yet you also mentioned Semis and Race Cars. Odds are I'd stall out a lot but once I got it moving I could keep it on the road.

Yes, but that's operating with a related skill at a penalty. To actually proficiently operate it, you'd need training... which is what the skill explicitly represents.

Even at Level 1, having a Pilot skill means you are a proficient, trained, and licensed (where available) operator of that type of vehicle.


Quote:
Yes, but that's operating with a related skill at a penalty.


That's what I've been saying. Skills in a category such as Pilot Fixed Wing Aircraft do have some skill overlap which allows you to attempt to operate similar vehicles. It doesn't mean you'll be successful. In fact the further you get from what's familiar the more likely you are to fail. But if you didn't have that skill overlap you couldn't attempt it. Hikaru/Rick knew how to fly Prop Planes. He didn't have to relearn to fly to Pilot Jet Aircraft. He just had to learn Jet Operations. He then took that knowledge and experience flying a Fokker DVII and his Fan Jet and applied it the a Jet Fighters (VF-1D). If skills didn't overlap he wouldn't have been able to taxi the VF-1D much less fly it.

If things were as you say, a Fighter Pilot couldn't just get checked out on a simulator and start flying for an airline because he wouldn't be able to fly the simulator. He'd have to go through flight school all over again, like all the other rookie pilots. They don't do that because they already not only know how to fly but how to fly jets. They're a couple steps above a rookie pilot. They just need to be checked out on the new plane they're going to be flying. Just like they would when transferring from one fighter type to another.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Sorry. I can't see that. Hibiki didn't freak out because they were safe. They could have spectated from behind the lines. Instead they flew into danger and even picked up one of the enemy.

Hibiki exactly didn't freak out because they were in danger either. He freaked out because he didn't want to show the UN Spacy losing the fight to their audience.

They never engaged any enemy. Any enemy that approached them was shot down by someone else before it could pose a threat. Barring Hibiki's attempt to stop Dennis from shooting, he basically flew a straight-and-level course.

So no, the VC-079 did not engage in combat.


Not something you're going to do way behind the lines.

That someone else shot down the enemy before they became a threat doesn't mean that they weren't in the combat zone. They also boarded an enemy ship and made off with enemy personnel. That kind of sounds like engaging in combat to me.

It sure sounds like it did.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Except you're not just separating vehicles out by class but by type as as well. You also aren't taking into account civilian owned surplus military mecha. Or that vehicles within a class are fundamentally the same.

1. No, the Civilian Valkyrie is explicitly placed as a separate class of craft by the OVA's creators.
2. No such animal in the Macross II setting. I have noted in previous posts how I handle civilian-owned retired military mecha in main timeline Macross homebrew games.
3. I'm not, because it's a fallacious argument on your part and repeated insistence will not make it less so.


1. You'd have to tell me where it says that. And it still doesn't take into account any of the Valkyries purchased by civilians.
2. As a sequel to Macross which has civilian owned military mecha would exist in Macross II. And it makes no sense creating a separate category for them as doing so says they're different when they're not. A VF-1 doesn't stop being a VF-1 because it's owned by a civilian.
3. Sorry but I'm not the one ignoring the anime or reality. A VF-1 doesn't become a Type 2 Volkswagen when owned by a civilian. It's still a VF-1.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
And no you don't need to separate out civilian from military. Again Civilians own Military Equipment. That is in the anime. That's in real life. You're arguing against it.

Yes, we do... because the RT2e Pilot skills explicitly include military training a civilian would not have access to incl. tactics and weapons system operation.

There is no civilian-owned military equipment in Macross II, so no it is not in the anime. It is in the main Macross timeline, but as noted most civilian mecha are disarmed and civilians aren't permitted to equip them with weaponry or the systems necessary to support it and are definitely not given military training in their operation, so a separate skill is still justified.


Read the skills again. One specifically says,
Quote:
without any combat training or bonuses.
The other two do not mention combat. The only one that says otherwise is the skill for combat, MECT Elite. Ignore that part. Sensor Operations are required for operation of mecha. Weapon Systems - anyone can pull a trigger. It's also probably less expensive to render any weapons inoperable than it is to strip the system from the mecha. Doing so could have an adverse effect on other systems. And some civilian mecha do have weapons of a sort. It'd be better to aim it correctly.

Again, Macross II is a sequel to Macross which has civilian owned mecha.




Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Yet we are talking about that. Civilians can own all of the VF-1 types, even the VF-1X++. They can own all kinds of VF types. Yet you want me to believe that because a civilian owns one they they suddenly become an entirely different class of mecha.

No, we are not... because we are talking about Macross II here.

The stuff you're banging on about is from the main Macross timeline, not Macross II's timeline. Mind you, what you're saying isn't even correct for that since civilians are only permitted to own very specific types and models of VF with appropriate licensing.


Again, sequel. Appropriate licensing can get you anything. Is
Hakuna Aoba a military pilot or is that just a rumor because he flies a VF-1X++. How many of the Valkyries used in Macross R were owned by civilian?


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
And after he learned to fly he had to learn to fight. One skill followed the other.

After he acquired the Pilot skill - which for military vehicle types explicitly includes training in the operation of weapons - he got the MECT skill for the combat bonuses.


If he'd had that training when learning to fly he wouldn't have had to spend more episodes learning how to fight. There's also Hikaru/Rick flying a VF-1D as a civilian.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I would hope that if one were going to own and operate a mecha, of any class or type, that one would be familiar with all the onboard systems. That said, you do know it is possible to fly a plane without knowing all the systems? In fact you have to be proficient at flying under Visual Flight Rules before you can go for your Instrument Rating.
So yes, someone could be familiar with piloting a Mecha without knowing how to fire it's weapons.

That is not what the military Pilot skill represents, though. What you're describing is analogous to using Pilot: Civilian Valkyrie to attempt to operate a military Valkyrie.


Nope. Not born up in the anime or real life.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
The Compendium says that the VF-4 was to replace the VF-1 by 2020.

As the MAIN variable fighter... not the only one. We know for a fact that the VF-1 continued in military front line service throughout the 2020s alongside several other replacement craft including both the VF-5 and VF-5000. When an aircraft is in the process of being phased out, they don't just throw them away. They might not be front line fighters anymore, but they're repurposed for training use and assigned to rear echelon units, and so on. The VF-4 was still being used as a squadron level training and testing aircraft in the 37th Long-Distance Emigrant Fleet in 2046 in Macross 7 Trash even though it'd lost main variable fighter status sixteen years earlier to the VF-11 and the VF-11's replacement was on deck. The Macross Frontier fleet only started to dispose of its VF-11s once they had the VF-25 in final testing, 28 years after its introduction.


I didn't say it was the only one. I said that those which had been replaced would have been surplus. Those remaining in service would continue in their roles until they were also replaced. And considering other VFs were being introduced to replace the VF-1, that would mean more and more VF-1s being retired.




Quote:
Sambot wrote:
And her got all his training in boot camp without noticing?

It wasn't formal training, but he was schooled in VF operation by his adoptive father-figure and mentor Ray Lovelock, who was a former New UN Spacy elite squadron leader.

Basara was either sharp enough to know there were things he didn't want to know, or was so dim it took him fully half the series to notice he'd basically volunteered to be a military test pilot. Take your pick. I find them both equally amusing.


And the combat flying and military tactics and weapons systems, etc. that civilians can't learn? I would have thought that even he would have thought that that was more than just a guitar gig.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
That doesn't mean the head lasers or the gun pod can't be fired the "old fashioned way" Fire and adjust if needed. It does mean that someone who can use the FCS is going to be shooting at the other before they can get into range.

Eh... actually, it does, because the aiming functions of the lasers are not manually controlled. Unless the pilot wants to attempt some manual-control handstands to try and get someone into the gun's field of fire. That would actually be pretty funny to watch.


Hikaru/Rick aiming the head lasers while in GERWALK Mode to cut a circular hole so that Misa could get out....I'm pretty sure that was done manually. Max, Hikaru and others using the lasers in fighter mode to hit specific locations on Battle Pods...That seems like manual control too. Neither are automatically firing at incoming missiles. That's aiming and firing.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
The problem with that thought is that if the computer can't tell what you want to punch, how can it tell what you want to pick up? There's also manual control. Throwing a punch is less complicated than picking up a person. Either way, nothings going to happen until you tell it to do something.

The integrated control AI knows what you want to punch because it's in charge of sensor fusion and has access to the complete picture of what's physically around the mecha, and because it also got an input from the pilot's pointer looking at where they want to land the blow. All it has to do there is join up the dots to put Fist A on or through target B when instructed to attack.

Picking things up is more complex. The control AI is programmed to recognize certain objects that are made to be picked up and handled by it and can work with those automatically like a VF's gunpod or escape pod, or a Destroid Work's handheld tools for mining or construction. Picking up things it's not specifically programmed to pick up, like a person who's cowering on the ground, has to be done manually with the pilot steering the arm and controlling the grip pressure to ensure that they pick the person up safely and don't pop them like a grape. Throwing a punch on manual is going to be a bit difficult because manual control is over one limb at a time. You're not going to be able to lean into the punch and you're going to be stuck in place while you throw it meaning it's not going to land as hard. Assuming, of course, a civilian-use mecha's collision avoidance isn't going to abort the motion mid-gesture or you don't simply shatter the hand against a hard target.


You do realize that you're proving my point. Civilians can engage in physical combat with their mecha.

Why should throwing a manual punch mean that you couldn't lean into it. Manual control that too. Why would there be such a system and why isn't it installed in military craft? I can see the Destroid Work's hand being busted after throwing a punch. I'm sure that every Mecha's hand's would need some maintenance after a hand to hand fight. But just because it isn't a good idea doesn't mean someone won't do it.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:37 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 am
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Location: New Frontier Shipyard, Earth-Moon L5
Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
Sambot wrote:
Nope. Sorry. They're still automobiles. Automobiles is a category. Muscle Car is a sub category. '69 Dodge Charger is a type. A Mail Truck is a category. A Grumman LLV is a type. The same skill is used to drive both; Pilot Automobile.

Again, you missed the point... not all things which would fit the dictionary definition of "automobile" are under the Pilot: Automobiles skill. Some, where they clearly belong to a separate class of vehicle, are broken out as separate skills where relevant and appropriate to do so. That's why there is a separate skill (Pilot: Truck) for operating large commercial and cargo vehicles. While the Civilian Valkyries of Macross II are, in the most basic sense, Valkyries... they are a different class of Valkyrie and are broken out into a separate pilot skill even in RAW.



Sambot wrote:
Except the setting allows for the private ownership of former military mecha, [...]

No, the Macross II: Lovers Again setting DOES NOT allow for private ownership of retired military equipment.

You are (knowingly, at this point) attempting to conflate material from two separate Macross timelines/universes. I am not sure how much clearer I can make this statement of fact. Please see below for a detailed explanation.

In Macross II, the closest that any civilian can come to privately owning a Valkyrie is the Takachihoff Corporation's Civilian Valkyrie series. It is only in the main Macross timeline that built on Macross Plus and Macross 7 where a private citizen is able to purchase a decommissioned military Valkyrie.



Sambot wrote:
Other games do have prop fighters. Even Macross had replicas but there isn't been a Pilot Prop Fighter skill. Why? Because what separates civilian from military is guns. The Fokker D.VII was a fighter plane. Remove the machine guns, or render inoperable, and now it's a civilian plane. Either way the Fokker D.VII is a single engine prop airplane. It doesn't suddenly become a Helicopter in the presence of weapons. Why should a Jet or a Valkyrie?

First, this is kind of an irrelevance given that there are no propeller-driven aircraft in the Macross II setting at all. They, like a number of other things, simply ceased to exist when the Boddole Zer main fleet scorched the Earth's surface into a barren wasteland.

Second, with respect to your argument here the gulf between a civilian aircraft and military aircraft is many times greater now than it was when the Fokker Flugzeugwerke developed the D.VII. Back in 1918, about all that separated the Fokker D.VII from a civilian biplane was the addition of a pair of "off the shelf" Spandau MG 08 machine guns. By the time World War II got going in earnest, fighters were a radically different breed of aircraft from anything else that was in the air. That divide has only grown with time. Your argument here is like saying that if I were to mount a NERF machine gun in the bed of a pickup truck it magically becomes an APC. No, there's a lot more to it. The VC-079 Civilian Valkyrie is basically the spacefuture version of a Cessna 172. It's nowhere near the same level as a military aircraft technologically or performance-wise. As Han Solo once put it, "This ain't like dusting crops, kid." Arguing that someone who qualified on a Civilian Valkyrie could operate a VF-2SS just as easily is like arguing that knowing how to race a go-kart qualifies you for the Indiana 500. :roll:



Sambot wrote:
Why wouldn't there be prop planes? Prop planes far less expensive to build, operate and maintain then jet aircraft. They're what people learn to fly on. Like how people don't learn to drive in a Formula 1. You can get to places faster or take in views you can't see on the ground. Just because we don't see any doesn't mean there aren't any. And unless you're going to remove the Pilot Airplane skill from the list, you need to allow for their existence.

Manufacturing cost is much less of an issue with Earth benefitting from multiple factory satellites. With most of Earth a barren wasteland, there's no advantage to a relatively slow small aircraft. Better by far to exploit the incredible fuel efficiency and power of thermonuclear reaction turbine engines to make VTOL craft that can carry months worth of fuel and fly far faster and higher than any old prop plane ever could.

Propeller aircraft are basically absent in both Macross timelines after the First Space War, except for the ultralight that Isamu and Guld built in school. In the main timeline, old Valkyries are easy enough to come by that vocational schools teaching piloting use civilian market Valkyries and other jet aircraft with reaction engines. (Mihoshi Academy, the school Alto attends in Macross Frontier, uses VF-1s for its pilot students.)



Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Combat Flying: Similar to the skill Combat Driving, the Combat Flying skill represents a character's ability to fly in adverse weather and combat conditions.


The character's ability to fly in combat conditions.

As noted previously, the ability to operate the mecha in combat is explicitly covered by the base military Pilot skill and MECT.

What you are referencing is a supplemental skill that provides additional bonuses on top of those.



Sambot wrote:
Where does the Fan Racer fit in? It isn't a commercial transport. It's not a Propeller Plane.

Well, the Civilian OCC's Stunt Pilot occupation offers bonuses to Pilot: Airplane and Pilot: Jet Aircraft.

Strictly speaking, based on its propulsion configuration the closest appropriate skill should be Pilot: Airplane as its main propulsion is a double ducted fan in a pusher configuration. There's no skill for rocket-propelled aircraft, but Pilot: Jet Aircraft would probably be the next closest fit there.



Sambot wrote:
And please remember Hikaru/Rick did fly a VF-1D which if we go with you're "Civilian's can't fly military vehicles" should not have been possible.

Are you having fun with that strawman? Please let him go, he's off to see the wizard. The wonderful Wizard of Oz. :roll:

My argument is that a civilian would not have access to military-only pilot skills like Pilot: Valkyrie or Pilot: Jet Fighter because a civilian's flight training does not and would not include the secondary stuff in the 2E skills like air combat strategy, military maneuvers, and weapons system training. That's why I have advocated for retaining Pilot: Civilian Valkyrie from the M2 RAW for the sake of covering that awkward area in the RT2e ruleset.



Sambot wrote:
Except Macross does allow the ownership of Military Mecha and Macross II is a sequel [...]

Eh... no. What you're talking about is a different timeline/universe from Macross II's.

Macross II is a sequel to Macross: Do You Remember Love?.

At the time Macross II: Lovers Again was being made, it was the only continuation of the Macross story after the First Space War depicted in the 1982 Super Dimension Fortress Macross TV series and 1984 Macross: Do You Remember Love? movie. Masaya developed Macross's first two canon video games as tie-ins to it as well: the side-scrolling shooter Macross 2036 and the TRPG Macross: Eternal Love Song. The idea of a civilian-use mecha was a new concept introduced in Macross II: Lovers Again with the built-for-purpose VC-079 Civilian Valkyrie and its backstory-only predecessor the VC-054.

Once Shoji Kawamori was enticed back to the franchise by difficulties getting his non-Macross proposals funded, he created a new timeline for two new story pitches he had that became Macross Plus and Macross 7. Macross II and its continuity were officially classified as Macross's first (and still only) official alternate universe storyline. Macross 7 was the first series to depict decommissioned military Valkyries in civilian hands. We usually refer to this new timeline/continuity Kawamori created for Macross Plus and Macross 7 as the "main" timeline due to it being used for all Macross sequels developed from 1994 onwards. The announcement was made in a number of different formats including a promotional video, in art books, and in a note put at the end of the final volume of the Macross II novelization.

So when you say Macross sequels feature civilians owning retired military mecha... you're thinking of the "main timeline" Macross stories. Macross II is an alternate universe story with a very different continuity and chronology to it.

In Macross II's timeline, the military never sold off decommissioned mecha to civilians. The only mecha civilians had access to were the ones deliberately developed specifically for civilian use... the aforementioned VC series from Takachihoff.



Sambot wrote:
And where things don't fit we improvise And the RT2r ruleset does separate out Piloting Mecha and Combat Mecha.

The RT2e ruleset has military Pilot skills granting basic combat ability (without bonuses), unlike the M2 raw where basic combat ability was itself a separate skill.

It's easier to just have a civilian skill for a particular category, since that covers both built-for-purpose civilian mecha and decommissioned and disarmed military ones.



Sambot wrote:
Pilot Battloids expressly says without combat training. The other two don't mention it. They all say
Quote:
Note: Must select Mecha Elite Combat Training to get additional combat bonuses

You're conflating two different concepts here. The Pilot skills, as noted previously, confer the basic ability to use the vehicle in combat. When the RPG refers to Combat Training it's referring to the Elite Combat Training skill that provides bonuses in combat.



Sambot wrote:
I suggest that this
Quote:
means the character can operate it and use all sensors. features. and weapons of the mecha.
should be ignored.

I disagree. The basic qualification for obtaining an operator license on a vehicle of practically any type is knowing how to operate it and use its available features and such safely. The definition as it is makes real world sense for military and nonmilitary vehicles alike.



Sambot wrote:
Further more, you have to be able to operate the sensors to operate Mechs. Battloids, Destroids, Pods, etc. are enclosed instrument only cockpits. You're not looking out a window. You're relying on sensors for everything. Operating the sensors is essential to operating the mecha. Everything else can be learned after learning how to operate the mecha. Unless you're in the military, or have a very good reason, you don't get to learn them.

So... yes and no? I mean, yes per RAW you need the Sensory Equipment skill to operate a mecha. This is something I changed in my own homebrew because the skill is too broadly written. It covers everything medical diagnostic systems to military radars to research implements like electron microscopes. I broke it up a bit and made field-specific sensor operation covered by a field-specific base skill like Electrical Engineer, Paramedic, etc. Especially since, on the mecha in Macross, the pilot is seeing the output of the sensor fusion work the integrated control AI does in the background. The individual sensors are being controlled and coordinated by the control AI, so the pilot doesn't have to work them individually. The system automatically selects and coordinates all the appropriate sensors for situational awareness. It's kind of necessary given how many sensor systems the average mecha has.

What I use Sensory Equipment for is a specialist skill for ship-based personnel in air traffic control and as a skill for pilots operating Reconnaissance (RVF) and ELINT/AWACS VFs (VE) to cover a host of specialist sensors and non-standard mission-specific, high-powered sensor equipment.



Sambot wrote:
If things were as you say, a Fighter Pilot couldn't just get checked out on a simulator and start flying for an airline because he wouldn't be able to fly the simulator. He'd have to go through flight school all over again, like all the other rookie pilots.

Hate to break it to you, but they DO have to go to flight school all over again... to recertify on a different class of aircraft which requires meeting a man-hours training requirement on that class of craft and taking specific training on class- and model-specific emergency procedures.



Sambot wrote:
Not something you're going to do way behind the lines.

That someone else shot down the enemy before they became a threat doesn't mean that they weren't in the combat zone. They also boarded an enemy ship and made off with enemy personnel. That kind of sounds like engaging in combat to me.

Engaging in combat means you fought. That's literally what it means. At no point did Hibiki fight anyone. He basically did not do anything that would constitute a melee action, if we want to put it in RPG terms.



Sambot wrote:
Is Hakuna Aoba a military pilot or is that just a rumor because he flies a VF-1X++.

Spoiler:
Hakuna Aoba is a retired New UN Spacy special forces pilot who served in the SVF-473 Shooting Stars in the 37th Long-Distance Emigrant Fleet "Macross 7" during the Varauta conflict. His squadron conducted the advance reconnaissance ahead of Operation Stargazer. His air combat instructor was Milia Fallyna Jenius, prior to her retirement from the New UN Spacy to become mayor of City-7.




Sambot wrote:
How many of the Valkyries used in Macross R were owned by civilian?

Please see the above for why Macross R is not relevant due to Macross II belonging to an alternate Macross universe with its own timeline.

However, to answer the question... "at least a few". It's hard to say with certainty because most Vanquish League pilots are sponsored by corporations. This blurs the line somewhat as to whether the VF they're flying is corporate-owned or privately owned, though several corporate teams are definitely flying corporate VFs and are considered by some fans of the sport to be attempting a sort of pay-to-win strategy. Like Team Shinsei, whose entry in the Ultimate Class races is a Shinsei corporate test pilot flying what is essentially a state-of-the-art customized VF-19 test aircraft. Team SMS, similarly, fielded a VF-19 technology demonstrator and was using the races to collect data for the YF-25 development program. There's also one racer who is the heiress to an interstellar bank and thus it's difficult to separate personal funding from having corporate sponsorship.

Of course, this has no bearing on Macross II's setting since in Macross II's alternate universe timeline the only civilian-owned mecha are the VC-series Civilian Valkyries.



Sambot wrote:
I didn't say it was the only one. I said that those which had been replaced would have been surplus. Those remaining in service would continue in their roles until they were also replaced. And considering other VFs were being introduced to replace the VF-1, that would mean more and more VF-1s being retired.

Again, that's the main timeline... where the VF-1 Valkyrie remained in frontline service into the 2040s with the special forces and was used as a training aircraft are being replaced by the VF-4 and the VF-5000. As I noted previously, based on other examples the VF-1 would not have wound up in military disposal sales until the 2030s when it was two generations old. It's also worth noting that in a number of secondary publications it's indicated that many First Space War mecha were fobbed off on emigrant fleets or converted into unmanned target aircraft for live fire exercises similar to how the New UN Spacy used remotely operated VF-11A's in its live fire testing of the Ghost X-9 in Macross Plus.

In Macross II's timeline, however, the VF-1 remained in frontline service alongside the VF-4 for much longer and were updated to the VF-1改 Refined Valkyrie standard to continue in service along with a similarly updated VF-4. Both were effectively ushered out of service in the 2050s due to massive losses in the 2054 Zentradi invasion and were replaced by the VF-XX and the VF-2 series VFs developed from it.



Sambot wrote:
And the combat flying and military tactics and weapons systems, etc. that civilians can't learn? I would have thought that even he would have thought that that was more than just a guitar gig.

That people who don't have access to military training can't learn. Basara does not exactly meet the strict definition of a civilian given that he was the test pilot in a New UN Forces black project. He was certainly proficient in the use of that speaker pod launcher (gunpod) when he first sortied in the VF-19改. But, again, that's a different universe from the one we're talking about.



Sambot wrote:
Hikaru/Rick aiming the head lasers while in GERWALK Mode to cut a circular hole so that Misa could get out....I'm pretty sure that was done manually. Max, Hikaru and others using the lasers in fighter mode to hit specific locations on Battle Pods...That seems like manual control too. Neither are automatically firing at incoming missiles. That's aiming and firing.

Ah, no... per official materials, we know that a VF's weapons are not aimed manually. Nor is the firing process strictly manual, since the control impulse from the triggers goes through the control AI to the FCS to the weapon. To aim at a target, all the pilot has to do is look at it and control AI does the rest. And yes, that includes aiming at specific parts of a target. When Hikaru cuts that hole, he's shown superimposing a large circular target on the door...



Sambot wrote:
You do realize that you're proving my point.

Nothing I said supports your argument, I'm afraid.



Sambot wrote:
Why should throwing a manual punch mean that you couldn't lean into it.

As far as we know, asserting manual control over one limb for precision maneuvers locks the rest of the mecha in place. There aren't separate controls for each limb, so controlling the right arm uses the same joystick that's used for general maneuvering, and controlling the left uses the same joystick that is also the throttle lever.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 8:48 am
  

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Palladin

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
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Sambot wrote:
Again, Macross II is a sequel to Macross which has civilian owned mecha.


MACROSS II IS SET IN A MACROSS ALTERNATE UNIVERSE. What happens in one universe has no bearing on the other(s).

Seto wrote:
Manufacturing cost is much less of an issue with Earth benefitting from multiple factory satellites. With most of Earth a barren wasteland, there's no advantage to a relatively slow small aircraft. Better by far to exploit the incredible fuel efficiency and power of thermonuclear reaction turbine engines to make VTOL craft that can carry months worth of fuel and fly far faster and higher than any old prop plane ever could.

Propeller aircraft are basically absent in both Macross timelines after the First Space War, except for the ultralight that Isamu and Guld built in school. In the main timeline, old Valkyries are easy enough to come by that vocational schools teaching piloting use civilian market Valkyries and other jet aircraft with reaction engines. (Mihoshi Academy, the school Alto attends in Macross Frontier, uses VF-1s for its pilot students.)


While I am not disputing the display of propeller aircraft, I do think there can be advantages to a relatively slow and small aircraft but it will depend on the mission. Not for the Macross Settings military mind you, but for the civilian applications: crop-dusting (farming) or bush/brush flying and other applications where there is not a need to fly fast/high (or even noise consideration, a turbojet is louder than a prop vehicle) and possibly even as far (though I could see using the endurance in other ways).


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:56 pm
  

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Knight

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ShadowLogan wrote:
While I am not disputing the display of propeller aircraft, I do think there can be advantages to a relatively slow and small aircraft but it will depend on the mission. Not for the Macross Settings military mind you, but for the civilian applications: crop-dusting (farming) or bush/brush flying and other applications where there is not a need to fly fast/high (or even noise consideration, a turbojet is louder than a prop vehicle) and possibly even as far (though I could see using the endurance in other ways).

Noise aside, the Civilian Valkyrie was created (in-universe) for more or less exactly that kind of operating environment. You could say it was intended to be essentially the ultimate bush plane, moving people and small amounts of equipment and supplies to and from areas like Nature Regeneration Project work zones that lacked infrastructure like runways or landing pads. It's light, it's fast, it has effectively unlimited range in Earth's atmosphere and carries enough fuel for weeks of continuous operation, it's far more durable than any conventional aircraft, GERWALK mode means it can loiter in ways that would make a helicopter or civilian plane seethe with envy, it has spacecraft-tier life support and cabin climate control, and it very likely is even capable of water landings and operating underwater at limited depths like older Valkyries.

Its enormous utility was the reason the VC-054 sold as well as it did, and ended up not just in non-military government hands but also in the hands of many private enterprises and eventually well-to-do private citizens too... leading, later, to the development of the VC-079 seen in the OVA.

(Crop dusting is known to be pretty inefficient, though I'd expect postwar Earth would find it completely unnecessary since the main use was for pesticides and the pests are extinct courtesy of the Zentradi. What little non-humanoid animal life exists on land was cloned back into existence by humanity, mainly for pets. I mentioned it a while back in this topic when I was identifying skills that weren't necessary for Macross II incl. outdoorsmanship, hunting, and animal husbandry.)

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:00 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:48 am
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Seto Kaiba wrote:
Again, you missed the point... not all things which would fit the dictionary definition of "automobile" are under the Pilot: Automobiles skill. Some, where they clearly belong to a separate class of vehicle, are broken out as separate skills where relevant and appropriate to do so. That's why there is a separate skill (Pilot: Truck) for operating large commercial and cargo vehicles. While the Civilian Valkyries of Macross II are, in the most basic sense, Valkyries... they are a different class of Valkyrie and are broken out into a separate pilot skill even in RAW.


No you missed my point. There are skills that fall under an umbrella of a base skill. Like Pilot Automobiles. That allows one to operate a wide variety of vehicles with a greater chance of success than with no skill at all. Or you could select that skill to remove the penalties. Pilot Automobiles is the base skill. Pilot Semis is a specialty. A car driver can attempt to drive a semi but they won't do it with the same degree of skill. There are penalties.

It's like an artist taking the skill twice to become a professional or a Doctor specializing in one of around 20 specialties .
https://www.sgu.edu/blog/medical/ultima ... ecialties/
A MD can work on Bionics but not as well as an MD who's taken the MD in Bionics skill. And that Doctor won't be able to work on Cybernetics with taking the MD in Cybernetics skills. They can do it but there is a skill penalty. Now a Cyber Doc is a Doctor but they would have a more difficult time delivering a baby than an OBGYN. They can do it but, again, there will be penalties.


Quote:
No, the Macross II: Lovers Again setting DOES NOT allow for private ownership of retired military equipment.

You are (knowingly, at this point) attempting to conflate material from two separate Macross timelines/universes. I am not sure how much clearer I can make this statement of fact. Please see below for a detailed explanation.

In Macross II, the closest that any civilian can come to privately owning a Valkyrie is the Takachihoff Corporation's Civilian Valkyrie series. It is only in the main Macross timeline that built on Macross Plus and Macross 7 where a private citizen is able to purchase a decommissioned military Valkyrie.


Why are you deliberately ignoring that Macross II is a sequel to Macross which does allow private ownership of decommissioned military mecha?
Even if they changed the laws somewhere along the line making it illegal in 2092. Mech ownership would have been legal up to that point.


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First, this is kind of an irrelevance given that there are no propeller-driven aircraft in the Macross II setting at all. They, like a number of other things, simply ceased to exist when the Boddole Zer main fleet scorched the Earth's surface into a barren wasteland.


Just because you don't see them doesn't mean that they do not exist.


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Second, with respect to your argument here the gulf between a civilian aircraft and military aircraft is many times greater now than it was when the Fokker Flugzeugwerke developed the D.VII. Back in 1918, about all that separated the Fokker D.VII from a civilian biplane was the addition of a pair of "off the shelf" Spandau MG 08 machine guns. By the time World War II got going in earnest, fighters were a radically different breed of aircraft from anything else that was in the air. That divide has only grown with time. Your argument here is like saying that if I were to mount a NERF machine gun in the bed of a pickup truck it magically becomes an APC. No, there's a lot more to it. The VC-079 Civilian Valkyrie is basically the spacefuture version of a Cessna 172. It's nowhere near the same level as a military aircraft technologically or performance-wise. As Han Solo once put it, "This ain't like dusting crops, kid." Arguing that someone who qualified on a Civilian Valkyrie could operate a VF-2SS just as easily is like arguing that knowing how to race a go-kart qualifies you for the Indiana 500. :roll:


Not really. They were much faster, had some armor, had weapons, or more powerful weapons but now they're basically still the same. Plus Pilots are still learning to fly on those old Biplanes and other slower aircraft before moving up to the more high performance aircraft. Now days, many civilian planes can give the fighters a run for their money when it comes to speed and maneuverability. Even Civilian Prop Airliners are faster than some Fighters. Actually, some Civilian Jet Liners are faster than some Jet Fighters.

You also keep missing I didn't say qualified. Capable and Qualified are different things. You're not qualified until you get checked out on it. Hikaru was Capable of flying a VF-1 at the beginning of Macross but he was in no way Qualified.



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Manufacturing cost is much less of an issue with Earth benefitting from multiple factory satellites. With most of Earth a barren wasteland, there's no advantage to a relatively slow small aircraft. Better by far to exploit the incredible fuel efficiency and power of thermonuclear reaction turbine engines to make VTOL craft that can carry months worth of fuel and fly far faster and higher than any old prop plane ever could.


Which are far more complex to repair, maintain, and fly. A prop plane could also be made to run on solar power. Also you don't start off driving a Formula 1. It's far to expensive. You start with the family car. Those higher speed planes are the race cars. The higher speeds also mean lower reaction time and for someone just learning, they need as much as possible. You don't throw someone just learning to drive onto the freeway. You start in an open field or parking lot with plenty of open space so they don't crash into anything.


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Propeller aircraft are basically absent in both Macross timelines after the First Space War, except for the ultralight that Isamu and Guld built in school. In the main timeline, old Valkyries are easy enough to come by that vocational schools teaching piloting use civilian market Valkyries and other jet aircraft with reaction engines. (Mihoshi Academy, the school Alto attends in Macross Frontier, uses VF-1s for its pilot students.)


That we don't see them other than that one time doesn't mean they don't exist. How many times do we see the bathroom in Macross? I can't recall seeing one but I'm sure they're there.

They're also still being produced so the Valkyries obtained may not be old.


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Sambot wrote:
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Combat Flying: Similar to the skill Combat Driving, the Combat Flying skill represents a character's ability to fly in adverse weather and combat conditions.


The character's ability to fly in combat conditions.

As noted previously, the ability to operate the mecha in combat is explicitly covered by the base military Pilot skill and MECT.

What you are referencing is a supplemental skill that provides additional bonuses on top of those.


Which is what you'd learn after learning to fly.


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Sambot wrote:
Where does the Fan Racer fit in? It isn't a commercial transport. It's not a Propeller Plane.

Well, the Civilian OCC's Stunt Pilot occupation offers bonuses to Pilot: Airplane and Pilot: Jet Aircraft.

Strictly speaking, based on its propulsion configuration the closest appropriate skill should be Pilot: Airplane as its main propulsion is a double ducted fan in a pusher configuration. There's no skill for rocket-propelled aircraft, but Pilot: Jet Aircraft would probably be the next closest fit there.


Except the Fan Jet doesn't fit either of those skills. It's officially a Jet, so Pilot Airplane is out. The Jet Aircraft skill is for commercial jets. Not small single seat stunt planes. So that one doesn't fit either. And if we're going to go by the OCC, the Aeronautics Skill would make the Fan Jet a Fighter. It's also faster than many older jet fighters so Jet Fighter skill should work for it.


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Sambot wrote:
And please remember Hikaru/Rick did fly a VF-1D which if we go with you're "Civilian's can't fly military vehicles" should not have been possible.

Are you having fun with that strawman? Please let him go, he's off to see the wizard. The wonderful Wizard of Oz. :roll:

My argument is that a civilian would not have access to military-only pilot skills like Pilot: Valkyrie or Pilot: Jet Fighter because a civilian's flight training does not and would not include the secondary stuff in the 2E skills like air combat strategy, military maneuvers, and weapons system training. That's why I have advocated for retaining Pilot: Civilian Valkyrie from the M2 RAW for the sake of covering that awkward area in the RT2e ruleset.


I can't tell you how surprised I am that you continue to insist on ignoring the anime. It's canon. A civilian flew a VF-1D Valkyrie with no military training. They even engaged in combat, with no military training. That isn't a strawman argument. That is Canon. Granted a Stunt Pilot is not your average civilian pilot but he/she is still a civilian pilot. The closest to military training they have is the Aeronautics skill. Which is a 2E skill and does cover those things
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Essentially a civilian version of Combat Flying
It's in the Anime and the RPG. Why do you keep insisting otherwise?

If you want to specialize in the VC-079 Civilian Valkyrie, no problem. But the basic Pilot Valkyrie Skill includes
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The knowledge and ability to pilot ALL transformable veritech mecha including the Alpha. Beta. Shadow Fighter, Cyclone, and others. past and present.


That's Jets, Helicopters, Motorcycles, Hover Vehicles, ATVs, Cars, every vehicle type. The VC-079 would be a Veritech Mecha. It would be selected as the main specialty just like Alphas, Betas, and Valkyries.

Also since the RPG doesn't even cover everything accurately (Fan Jet), and seems to conflict itself (MECT skill saying abilities are included when the Piloting skills say otherwise.) some customization and correction is needed. So under Pilot Veritechs simply add "Civilians are only allowed to pick VF-1s and VC-079." And since Macross II is 80 years later, there should be a good reason why VF-1 gets picked.



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Sambot wrote:
Except Macross does allow the ownership of Military Mecha and Macross II is a sequel [...]

Eh... no. What you're talking about is a different timeline/universe from Macross II's.

Macross II is a sequel to Macross: Do You Remember Love?.

At the time Macross II: Lovers Again was being made, it was the only continuation of the Macross story after the First Space War depicted in the 1982 Super Dimension Fortress Macross TV series and 1984 Macross: Do You Remember Love? movie. Masaya developed Macross's first two canon video games as tie-ins to it as well: the side-scrolling shooter Macross 2036 and the TRPG Macross: Eternal Love Song. The idea of a civilian-use mecha was a new concept introduced in Macross II: Lovers Again with the built-for-purpose VC-079 Civilian Valkyrie and its backstory-only predecessor the VC-054.

Once Shoji Kawamori was enticed back to the franchise by difficulties getting his non-Macross proposals funded, he created a new timeline for two new story pitches he had that became Macross Plus and Macross 7. Macross II and its continuity were officially classified as Macross's first (and still only) official alternate universe storyline. Macross 7 was the first series to depict decommissioned military Valkyries in civilian hands. We usually refer to this new timeline/continuity Kawamori created for Macross Plus and Macross 7 as the "main" timeline due to it being used for all Macross sequels developed from 1994 onwards. The announcement was made in a number of different formats including a promotional video, in art books, and in a note put at the end of the final volume of the Macross II novelization.

So when you say Macross sequels feature civilians owning retired military mecha... you're thinking of the "main timeline" Macross stories. Macross II is an alternate universe story with a very different continuity and chronology to it.

In Macross II's timeline, the military never sold off decommissioned mecha to civilians. The only mecha civilians had access to were the ones deliberately developed specifically for civilian use... the aforementioned VC series from Takachihoff.


Did you not tell me that Macross Canon is fuzzy being a mix of the TV show and the Movie? And isn't that further confused by DYRL? officially being a movie within the universe and Flashback 2012 being a sequel to both the Movie and TV show? So with exact Canon being uncertain the door is open for civilian mecha in the sequel. Even if it were just the movie, surplus mecha do get sold to civilians. So again, the door is open.

What's the VC-054? This is the first I've ever heard of it.



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Sambot wrote:
And where things don't fit we improvise And the RT2r ruleset does separate out Piloting Mecha and Combat Mecha.

The RT2e ruleset has military Pilot skills granting basic combat ability (without bonuses), unlike the M2 raw where basic combat ability was itself a separate skill.

It's easier to just have a civilian skill for a particular category, since that covers both built-for-purpose civilian mecha and decommissioned and disarmed military ones.


Except that ignores that the Pilot Veritech skill covers ALL Transformable Mecha. That includes decommissioned Valkyries. Making Pilot Civilian and Decommissioned Valkyries a separate skill simply won't work. The VF-1 is still in service. You're saying a Veritech Pilot specializing in the VF-1 can fly a VF-1 that's still in service but can't fly a VF-1 that's been decommissioned. So Milia can't fly her decommissioned VF-1J without first taking the Pilot Civilian Veritech skill first? She has to go back school and learn to fly her decommissioned VF-1J all over again even though she flew during SW1? Even though the VF-1 is still in service and still seeing upgrades? She really has to go back to flight school to learn to pilot her VF-1J all over again? Seriously?

Did all the other Miliary Pilots who flew Milia's VF-1 also have Pilot Civilian Veritech among their skills? Worse how could Mylene take the VF-1J into combat and shoot down enemy Mecha? She's a civilian. According to you, that is impossible.

Making Civilian owned Veritechs a completely different skill just doesn't work. It works as a specialty, pick one Veritech type and add +13% but not as as separate skill.


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Sambot wrote:
Pilot Battloids expressly says without combat training. The other two don't mention it. They all say
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Note: Must select Mecha Elite Combat Training to get additional combat bonuses

You're conflating two different concepts here. The Pilot skills, as noted previously, confer the basic ability to use the vehicle in combat. When the RPG refers to Combat Training it's referring to the Elite Combat Training skill that provides bonuses in combat.


No.
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Piloting and basic operations without any combat training or bonuses.
Please note without [i]any[/i] combat training. The other Mecha Pilot skills do not say they give combat training. That is in direct conflict with the MECT skill saying that combat training is included, which you keep pointing to to say that combat training is included.

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Sambot wrote:
I suggest that this
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means the character can operate it and use all sensors. features. and weapons of the mecha.
should be ignored.

I disagree. The basic qualification for obtaining an operator license on a vehicle of practically any type is knowing how to operate it and use its available features and such safely. The definition as it is makes real world sense for military and nonmilitary vehicles alike.


Yes and no. Operate safely? Yes. Operate all the syatems? No. I wasn't asked if I knew how to work the radio when I got my driver's license. Pilot's don't get their Instrument Rating until after they can fly under Visual Fight Rules. That means that have a Pilot's License. They just don't have the extra endorsement on it saying that they can fly only by instruments.


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Sambot wrote:
Further more, you have to be able to operate the sensors to operate Mechs. Battloids, Destroids, Pods, etc. are enclosed instrument only cockpits. You're not looking out a window. You're relying on sensors for everything. Operating the sensors is essential to operating the mecha. Everything else can be learned after learning how to operate the mecha. Unless you're in the military, or have a very good reason, you don't get to learn them.

So... yes and no? I mean, yes per RAW you need the Sensory Equipment skill to operate a mecha. This is something I changed in my own homebrew because the skill is too broadly written. It covers everything medical diagnostic systems to military radars to research implements like electron microscopes. I broke it up a bit and made field-specific sensor operation covered by a field-specific base skill like Electrical Engineer, Paramedic, etc. Especially since, on the mecha in Macross, the pilot is seeing the output of the sensor fusion work the integrated control AI does in the background. The individual sensors are being controlled and coordinated by the control AI, so the pilot doesn't have to work them individually. The system automatically selects and coordinates all the appropriate sensors for situational awareness. It's kind of necessary given how many sensor systems the average mecha has.

What I use Sensory Equipment for is a specialist skill for ship-based personnel in air traffic control and as a skill for pilots operating Reconnaissance (RVF) and ELINT/AWACS VFs (VE) to cover a host of specialist sensors and non-standard mission-specific, high-powered sensor equipment.


We seem to be getting some where. That's good. I agree that Read Sensory Equipment is too broadly written. I would also say that it shouldn't automatically be included in every skill. Most Propeller Airplanes don't have Radar. That's reserved for military or very high end aircraft. Not even early Jets had Radar. Now? I'd be surprised if radar wasn't included. So it's very dependent on era. I would also say that it's dependent on complexity. Modern Fighter Pilots are going to know how to operate their Radar. Their REO would do a better job though. I think it should be one of those automatic skills that stay at the base level unless its picked. Like Military Etiquette.


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Sambot wrote:
If things were as you say, a Fighter Pilot couldn't just get checked out on a simulator and start flying for an airline because he wouldn't be able to fly the simulator. He'd have to go through flight school all over again, like all the other rookie pilots.

Hate to break it to you, but they DO have to go to flight school all over again... to recertify on a different class of aircraft which requires meeting a man-hours training requirement on that class of craft and taking specific training on class- and model-specific emergency procedures.


That's training in a simulator and the actual aircraft. Not sitting in a class room learning to get their Pilot's license all over again. They know how to fly. They're just learning the specifics of that aircraft. Basically like a VF-1 Pilot going to a VF-11. By the time they get done training on the VF-1 they know how to fly Valkyries. Now it's getting familiar with the controls and capabilities of the VF-11. Basically, skill penalties until they learn the new Valkyrie.


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Sambot wrote:
Not something you're going to do way behind the lines.

That someone else shot down the enemy before they became a threat doesn't mean that they weren't in the combat zone. They also boarded an enemy ship and made off with enemy personnel. That kind of sounds like engaging in combat to me.

Engaging in combat means you fought. That's literally what it means. At no point did Hibiki fight anyone. He basically did not do anything that would constitute a melee action, if we want to put it in RPG terms.


Engaging in combat also includes avoiding being hit.


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Sambot wrote:
Is Hakuna Aoba a military pilot or is that just a rumor because he flies a VF-1X++.

Spoiler:
Hakuna Aoba is a retired New UN Spacy special forces pilot who served in the SVF-473 Shooting Stars in the 37th Long-Distance Emigrant Fleet "Macross 7" during the Varauta conflict. His squadron conducted the advance reconnaissance ahead of Operation Stargazer. His air combat instructor was Milia Fallyna Jenius, prior to her retirement from the New UN Spacy to become mayor of City-7.


Thank you. The Compendium needs updating. Since he has a decommissioned VF-1X++ does he had to take Pilot VF-1 again?




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Sambot wrote:
How many of the Valkyries used in Macross R were owned by civilian?

Please see the above for why Macross R is not relevant due to Macross II belonging to an alternate Macross universe with its own timeline.

However, to answer the question... "at least a few". It's hard to say with certainty because most Vanquish League pilots are sponsored by corporations. This blurs the line somewhat as to whether the VF they're flying is corporate-owned or privately owned, though several corporate teams are definitely flying corporate VFs and are considered by some fans of the sport to be attempting a sort of pay-to-win strategy. Like Team Shinsei, whose entry in the Ultimate Class races is a Shinsei corporate test pilot flying what is essentially a state-of-the-art customized VF-19 test aircraft. Team SMS, similarly, fielded a VF-19 technology demonstrator and was using the races to collect data for the YF-25 development program. There's also one racer who is the heiress to an interstellar bank and thus it's difficult to separate personal funding from having corporate sponsorship.

Of course, this has no bearing on Macross II's setting since in Macross II's alternate universe timeline the only civilian-owned mecha are the VC-series Civilian Valkyries.


It goes to the topic. Civilians and Civilian Organizations owning and operating military equipment. Not just old surplus equipment either but top of the line equipment. Separate skills aren't used as that would require more training. It would also mean completely redesigning for military use.




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Sambot wrote:
I didn't say it was the only one. I said that those which had been replaced would have been surplus. Those remaining in service would continue in their roles until they were also replaced. And considering other VFs were being introduced to replace the VF-1, that would mean more and more VF-1s being retired.

Again, that's the main timeline... where the VF-1 Valkyrie remained in frontline service into the 2040s with the special forces and was used as a training aircraft are being replaced by the VF-4 and the VF-5000. As I noted previously, based on other examples the VF-1 would not have wound up in military disposal sales until the 2030s when it was two generations old. It's also worth noting that in a number of secondary publications it's indicated that many First Space War mecha were fobbed off on emigrant fleets or converted into unmanned target aircraft for live fire exercises similar to how the New UN Spacy used remotely operated VF-11A's in its live fire testing of the Ghost X-9 in Macross Plus.

In Macross II's timeline, however, the VF-1 remained in frontline service alongside the VF-4 for much longer and were updated to the VF-1改 Refined Valkyrie standard to continue in service along with a similarly updated VF-4. Both were effectively ushered out of service in the 2050s due to massive losses in the 2054 Zentradi invasion and were replaced by the VF-XX and the VF-2 series VFs developed from it.


That does not mean that VF-1s weren't sold in the early 2020s. It just means that they did not become more widely available until the 2030s.
I'm pretty sure Milia was allowed to buy her VF-1 after she transferred to the VF-4 in 2014. I can't see anyone taking it from her.


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Sambot wrote:
And the combat flying and military tactics and weapons systems, etc. that civilians can't learn? I would have thought that even he would have thought that that was more than just a guitar gig.

That people who don't have access to military training can't learn. Basara does not exactly meet the strict definition of a civilian given that he was the test pilot in a New UN Forces black project. He was certainly proficient in the use of that speaker pod launcher (gunpod) when he first sortied in the VF-19改. But, again, that's a different universe from the one we're talking about.


According to you though, only military can engage in combat. So Basara either went through Military training, or Civilians can do Military things. There's also Mylene flying a VF-1 and engaging in combat. She was a civilian.

And it's the same topic. You're saying civilians can't do things even though multiple anime sources and the RPG say otherwise.



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Sambot wrote:
Hikaru/Rick aiming the head lasers while in GERWALK Mode to cut a circular hole so that Misa could get out....I'm pretty sure that was done manually. Max, Hikaru and others using the lasers in fighter mode to hit specific locations on Battle Pods...That seems like manual control too. Neither are automatically firing at incoming missiles. That's aiming and firing.

Ah, no... per official materials, we know that a VF's weapons are not aimed manually. Nor is the firing process strictly manual, since the control impulse from the triggers goes through the control AI to the FCS to the weapon. To aim at a target, all the pilot has to do is look at it and control AI does the rest. And yes, that includes aiming at specific parts of a target. When Hikaru cuts that hole, he's shown superimposing a large circular target on the door...


So Hikaru, had the head pop down from it's normally stowed position, told it where to aim and pulled the trigger.



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Sambot wrote:
You do realize that you're proving my point.

Nothing I said supports your argument, I'm afraid.


The anime says otherwise.



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Sambot wrote:
Why should throwing a manual punch mean that you couldn't lean into it.

As far as we know, asserting manual control over one limb for precision maneuvers locks the rest of the mecha in place. There aren't separate controls for each limb, so controlling the right arm uses the same joystick that's used for general maneuvering, and controlling the left uses the same joystick that is also the throttle lever.


Hikaru blocked a strike, turned and punched. In GERWALK Mode. Didn't he then use both hands to free Minmay and Kyle? Max picked Hikaru and Misa up with one hand while blocking Ben with the other. He did that after putting on a Zentraedi uniform. None of those things strike me as something that would be pre-programmed in.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:04 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:48 am
Posts: 257
ShadowLogan wrote:
Sambot wrote:
Again, Macross II is a sequel to Macross which has civilian owned mecha.


MACROSS II IS SET IN A MACROSS ALTERNATE UNIVERSE. What happens in one universe has no bearing on the other(s).


Macross II is a sequel so what happens in one does have a bearing on the latter.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:34 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 am
Posts: 5450
Location: New Frontier Shipyard, Earth-Moon L5
Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
Sambot wrote:
Macross II is a sequel so what happens in one does have a bearing on the latter.

Ah, no.

As I've said, the Macross II: Lovers Again OVA (and "movie") are officially considered to be an alternate universe from the rest of Macross. Events and setting developments from later Macross titles have no bearing on its story or setting because it exists in a separate timeline from Macross's later sequels.

The only Macross titles that are relevant to the timeline and setting of Macross II: Lovers Again are the Macross: Do You Remember Love? movie, the Macross: Flash Back 2012 OVA, the PC Engine Super CD games Macross 2036 and Macross: Eternal Love Song, and Macross II: Lovers Again itself. (+/- the novelizations of DYRL? and II.)

In 1994, Macross Plus and Macross 7 established a new timeline based on the Super Dimension Fortress Macross TV series that regards the Do You Remember Love? movie as an in-universe historical drama that was released in 2031 and omits Macross II: Lovers Again and its two tie-in video games from its setting and continuity. All official setting Macross works produced after 1993 belong to this new "main" timeline.

So what you're attempting to assert here is just plain wrong... because you're basing it on titles that aren't part of Macross II's canon or continuity.

_________________
Macross2.net - Home of the Macross Mecha Manual

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 8:25 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 am
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Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
Sambot wrote:
No you missed my point. There are skills that fall under an umbrella of a base skill. Like Pilot Automobiles.

No, the Pilot: Truck skill for heavy duty vehicles is presented as a separate base skill. Refer to the RT2e core book pg276, left column, about halfway down the page. It is not a supplementary skill or specialism.

Much like how Pilot: Jet Aircraft and Pilot: Jet Fighter are two different skills because the category of vehicle is different enough to justify a separate category. Or how the M2 RAW offers separate pilot skills for the Civilian Valkyrie and military Valkyries.



Sambot wrote:
Why are you deliberately ignoring that Macross II is a sequel to Macross which does allow private ownership of decommissioned military mecha?
Even if they changed the laws somewhere along the line making it illegal in 2092. Mech ownership would have been legal up to that point.

Oh, I am not ignoring anything... as explained in my previous post, Macross II: Lovers Again and the other titles in its timeline are an alternate universe. They belong to a separate reality with its own timeline separate from that of the rest of Macross. The events of the sequels produced after Macross II did not happen in Macross II's universe.

Much like how Marvel, DC, or Sunrise put various works in parallel universes, Macross's creators put Macross II in a parallel universe when Macross Plus and Macross 7 came in with very different ideas of what Macross's future should be like.



Sambot wrote:
Now days, many civilian planes can give the fighters a run for their money when it comes to speed and maneuverability. Even Civilian Prop Airliners are faster than some Fighters. Actually, some Civilian Jet Liners are faster than some Jet Fighters.

I seldom run across a remark that screams "I did not research this" as loudly as this one... please, check your facts before posting. :roll:



Sambot wrote:
That we don't see them other than that one time doesn't mean they don't exist. How many times do we see the bathroom in Macross? I can't recall seeing one but I'm sure they're there.

Ironically, later in this very post you referenced a scene that takes place in a bathroom. Max is hiding in a bathroom when that Zentradi officer he mugs for his uniform walks in. The camera lingers on his look of dismay when he realizes he's hiding in the john. During said mugging, we even see him lock the door to show the bathroom is occupied for comedic effect.

Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it doesn't exist... but at the same time, if there's no evidence something exists and there's evidence it doesn't, the argument leans strongly in favor of "doesn't". :wink:



Sambot wrote:
Except the Fan Jet doesn't fit either of those skills. It's officially a Jet, so Pilot Airplane is out.

"Fan Jet" is a fan nickname for it. Its actual official name is Fan Racer (ファン・レーサー).

It is not, strictly speaking, a jet aircraft at all. Its primary propulsion is derived from a double ducted fan.



Sambot wrote:
And if we're going to go by the OCC, the Aeronautics Skill would make the Fan Jet a Fighter.

I assume you meant "Aerobatics"? The Civilian OCC's Stunt Pilot occupation has that skill, but nothing in the text of the skill would make the Fan Racer a jet fighter.



Sambot wrote:
It's also faster than many older jet fighters so Jet Fighter skill should work for it.

... that's the second massive "Did not do research" moment in this post of yours.

I hate to break it to you, but even World War II-era 1st Generation Jet Fighters like the Heinkel He 162, Lockheed P-80, and de Havilland FB.6 Vampire, and Gloster F.8 Meteor were faster than the Fan Racer on main engine power alone.



Sambot wrote:
I can't tell you how surprised I am that you continue to insist on ignoring the anime. It's canon. A civilian flew a VF-1D Valkyrie with no military training. They even engaged in combat, with no military training.

No, I am not ignoring the anime... I just know more than you do and I'm actually trying to relate this to the rules as they're actually written.

Yes, Hikaru briefly operated a VF-1D... poorly... and got shot down almost immediately after taking off because he had no familiarity with military flight discipline. He then proceeded to fumble around ineptly until an experienced pilot could talk him through enough basic operation to stand up, took off, got shot up again, crashed again, and then blindly emptied the magazine of a weapon he had zero idea how to use at a target while inflicting only minimal damage. This is pretty much exactly what you'd expect from someone who didn't have the skill to operate a vehicle but did have a skill from at least one tangentially related class of vehicle to mitigate the massive penalties to skill tests.

That's a very different matter from what is being discussed WRT having a separate skill specifically for Civilian-use Valkyries where the civilian pilot is not eligible for the secondary parts of the military's Pilot skill like weapons training and air combat strategy.



Sambot wrote:
But the basic Pilot Valkyrie Skill includes
Quote:
The knowledge and ability to pilot ALL transformable veritech mecha including the Alpha. Beta. Shadow Fighter, Cyclone, and others. past and present.


That's Jets, Helicopters, Motorcycles, Hover Vehicles, ATVs, Cars, every vehicle type. The VC-079 would be a Veritech Mecha. It would be selected as the main specialty just like Alphas, Betas, and Valkyries.

The rest of that RT2e skill's text makes it pretty clear it's actually only "Veritech Fighters", with a baked on transferrable for the Cyclone that is also included with the Alpha. It's not actually a catch-all skill like you're arguing it is. That's why there are separate skills for things like "Ground Veritechs" in the RAW and you see ground forces OCCs calling that ground specific skill. I did something rather similar with the main timeline version of Pilot: Valkyrie. For select 4th Gen and all 5th Gen VFs it includes applicability for EX-Gear as well.

Mind you, we're talking about updating the Macross II game using the RT2e ruleset. There are, naturally, adjustments that need to be made and some content not present in the RT2e RAW that needs to be brought over like Pilot: Civilian Valkyrie or replacing Pilot: Battloid with Pilot: Destroid.



Sambot wrote:
Also since the RPG doesn't even cover everything accurately (Fan Jet), and seems to conflict itself (MECT skill saying abilities are included when the Piloting skills say otherwise.) some customization and correction is needed.

Granted, RT2e is far from perfect and some amount of adaptation is needed, but the simplest approach to the Civilian Valkyrie question is to just bring over the Pilot: Civilian Valkyrie skill rather than screwing with how Pilot skills for military vehicle types work in 2E.



Sambot wrote:
Did you not tell me that Macross Canon is fuzzy being a mix of the TV show and the Movie? And isn't that further confused by DYRL? officially being a movie within the universe and Flashback 2012 being a sequel to both the Movie and TV show? So with exact Canon being uncertain the door is open for civilian mecha in the sequel. Even if it were just the movie, surplus mecha do get sold to civilians. So again, the door is open.

Yes, though it seems I did not do a good job explaining the implications to you.

That's the main Macross timeline... Macross II is separate. Macross's main timeline runs on "broad strokes" canon with respect to the little details of major events and the differences between various depictions of an event, Macross II is its own separate universe and timeline, and has been since 1994. It's a world apart from the nebulous canon of the ongoing Macross timeline. The events of later Macross titles never happened in its in-universe history and the world itself is very different because it takes DYRL? more or less as gospel.

Many things that exist in the main Macross timeline - companies, factions, mecha designs, etc. - never existed in the Macross II version of the Macross world. Shinsei Industry and the General Galaxy corporation, for instance, never came to be in Macross II's timeline. Instead, the surviving engineers banded together to form a single Anaheim Electronics-esque near monopoly called the Takachihoff Corporation. Military VFs never ended up in civilian hands, instead the Takachihoff Corp. developed specific models of Valkyrie for civilian use.



Sambot wrote:
What's the VC-054? This is the first I've ever heard of it.

The VC-054 Civilian Valkyrie is a backstory-only design mentioned in the history of the VC-079 Civilian Valkyrie.

In Macross II's alternate reality timeline, the VC-054 Civilian Valkyrie was the first mecha to be made available to civilian operators. It came out in 2054. It'd been engineered for government use but quickly found interest from private enterprises and eventually a small number of private citizens too. Its success led to the later development of the VC-079 seen in Macross II.



Sambot wrote:
Except that ignores that the Pilot Veritech skill covers ALL Transformable Mecha. That includes decommissioned Valkyries. Making Pilot Civilian and Decommissioned Valkyries a separate skill simply won't work. The VF-1 is still in service. You're saying a Veritech Pilot specializing in the VF-1 can fly a VF-1 that's still in service but can't fly a VF-1 that's been decommissioned. So Milia can't fly her decommissioned VF-1J without first taking the Pilot Civilian Veritech skill first? She has to go back school and learn to fly her decommissioned VF-1J all over again even though she flew during SW1? Even though the VF-1 is still in service and still seeing upgrades? She really has to go back to flight school to learn to pilot her VF-1J all over again? Seriously?

For starters, your basic premise is faulty... the RT2e RAW Pilot: Veritech skill is actually just for "Veritech Fighters" as RT would have it.

Second, decommissioned Valkyries aren't a thing in Macross II. See above and previous explanations for why.

Third, no. Someone with military experience - e.g. the military Pilot: Valkyrie skill - should be able to operate a Civilian Valkyrie with penalties to reflect unfamiliar handling. Someone with the Pilot: Civilian Valkyrie skill should be able to operate a military Valkyrie on a basic level (with penalties) but without the familiarity with weapons systems or tactics that come from the military's version of the Pilot skill.

Fourth, WRT main timeline Macross and the whole concept of civilian-owned ex-military Valkyries that doesn't exist in Macross II... the purpose of a Civilian Valkyrie skill there is essentially the same. To omit the basic level combat ability, weapon system familiarity, and instruction in tactics and such that come with the military skill. I would say that someone with the military skill would still incur a penalty to operate a civilian VF due to the civilian-owned mecha being old and detuned to be less capable or straight-up omit features the military version had. As an example, I'd point to the trouble that highly trained NUNS Special Forces pilot Gamlin Kizaki had piloting Milia's VF-1J due to its performance being so much lower than what he's used to (which he complains about before being shot down by Sivil).



Sambot wrote:
Worse how could Mylene take the VF-1J into combat and shoot down enemy Mecha? She's a civilian. According to you, that is impossible.

Let's be honest, the entire Jenius family are basically GM NPCs...

Anyway... Mylene would be something of a special case because, even though she is a civilian she was born on and grew up on military warships. Her parents and several older siblings are soldiers and career Valkyrie pilots. It would not be an exaggeration to say she's been around military Valkyries her entire life. She has had unusual (and likely regulation-breaking) access to military hardware and likely no small amount of informal training from the soldiers in her family who probably expected her to become a soldier too. Her niece, Mirage, is explicitly from the same kind of situation having literally grown up around the family's modest fleet of privately owned ex-military Valkyries. Like Basara, she effectively received informal military-level training from some of the military's most elite soldiers.



Sambot wrote:
No.
Quote:
Piloting and basic operations without any combat training or bonuses.
Please note without [i]any[/i] combat training.

It's referencing the separate Combat Training skill. What the Pilot skill includes is the basic ability to go into combat with the mecha. The same way that, without WP, anyone can pick up a weapon and go into combat with it without bonuses per the combat rules.



Sambot wrote:
We seem to be getting some where. That's good. I agree that Read Sensory Equipment is too broadly written. I would also say that it shouldn't automatically be included in every skill.

Not in full... in contextually-appropriate ways. An electrical engineer would know how to use something like magnetometer, RF field sensor, or multimeter. A doctor would know how to use the medical diagnostic instruments appropriate to their field. A mechanic would know how to read vehicle onboard diagnostics, etc. You wouldn't have a mechanical engineer knowing how to properly diagnose via medical instrumentation, etc.



Sambot wrote:
That's training in a simulator and the actual aircraft. Not sitting in a class room learning to get their Pilot's license all over again.

There's a fair amount of classroom time involved, and it is pretty much getting their license all over again...



Sambot wrote:
They know how to fly. They're just learning the specifics of that aircraft. Basically like a VF-1 Pilot going to a VF-11. By the time they get done training on the VF-1 they know how to fly Valkyries. Now it's getting familiar with the controls and capabilities of the VF-11. Basically, skill penalties until they learn the new Valkyrie.

That's not trading one basic Pilot skill for another, that's trading one MECT for another.



Sambot wrote:
Engaging in combat also includes avoiding being hit.

If all you're doing is avoiding combat, you're not engaged in combat... you're avoiding it.

Engaging in combat means fighting back.



Sambot wrote:
Thank you. The Compendium needs updating. Since he has a decommissioned VF-1X++ does he had to take Pilot VF-1 again?

As a retired soldier, one would assume he retains the military Pilot skill.



Sambot wrote:
It goes to the topic. Civilians and Civilian Organizations owning and operating military equipment. Not just old surplus equipment either but top of the line equipment. Separate skills aren't used as that would require more training. It would also mean completely redesigning for military use.

Eh, it really doesn't go with the topic because we're talking about Macross II where civilians don't have access to that kind of thing.

The only mecha civilians have had access to in Macross II are the VC-054 and VC-079 Civilian Valkyries, which are technologically far inferior to the military Valkyries available in the same period.

Spoiler:
Mind you, WRT the main Macross timeline it would be inaccurate to characterize that as civilians owning top-of-the-line equipment in Macross R.

Most entrants in the Vanquish League air races are flying old model Valkyries that are effectively at least two generations behind the state of the art at the time the story takes place in 2058. It's only teams whose sponsors are defense industry corporations like Shinsei Industry or Strategic Military Services who are fielding 4th Generation VFs like the VF-19. The 3rd Generation VF-11 Thunderbolt could be said to be the standard, though a number of other entrants are using even older models. The league champion flies a 2nd Generation VF-9E Cutlass, and SMS's parent company's team fields a VF-4SL. Hakuna Aoba and Magdalena Zielonaska are arguably tied for oldest, both racing in what amount to upgraded 1st Generation VFs.

That megacorp-sponsored teams like Shinsei and SMS can field 4th Gen VFs is the reason some Vanquish League fans accuse them of trying to win by superior spending power, since they have access to tech like that which is far beyond the grasp of private citizens.




Sambot wrote:
So Hikaru, had the head pop down from it's normally stowed position, told it where to aim and pulled the trigger.

Arming the weapon and aiming off-axis would do that automatically... all Hikaru had to do was aim, which is done automatically by the control AI based on where the pilot is currently looking and the data received about that direction from sensors.



Sambot wrote:
Hikaru blocked a strike, turned and punched. In GERWALK Mode. Didn't he then use both hands to free Minmay and Kyle? Max picked Hikaru and Misa up with one hand while blocking Ben with the other. He did that after putting on a Zentraedi uniform. None of those things strike me as something that would be pre-programmed in.

Things like putting on a uniform would require manual input, but the control AI isn't simply executing rote-memorized actions... this is context-sensitive AI software designed to adapt and build upon its database.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:28 am
  

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Sambot wrote:
Macross II is a sequel so what happens in one does have a bearing on the latter.

Macross II is a sequel to Macross: Do You Remember Love, which is set in an alternate universe from the main SDF:Macross timeline (which includes M0, M+, M7, M-Delta). Macross: DYRL has noticeable differences in its story than the SDF:Macross TV series which includes:
-the discovery of a Protoculture City (and brief contact w/them)
-Minmei gets captured with Hikaru in a VT-1D out in space (Misa and Kyle follow and are also captured)
-Fokkers death takes place in space, not on Earth
-Hikaru and Misa arrive on Earth before the SDF-1 to find it already devastated (RoD style)
-Male and Female Zentreadi are at war with each other (males form an alliance with the SDF-1)

I could go on, but would most likely require a review of it (I don't think I've watched it in like 20years, the English dub was terrible on VHS that I have).

Seto wrote:
As a retired soldier, one would assume he retains the military Pilot skill.

Assuming one doesn't change OCC that would be a valid assumption (and the skill would improve). Where things get a bit dicey is when one changes OCC in the Palladium system and which change rules are in play (2E RT and M2 do not have formal rules AFAIK, meaning Rifts or the Website's Cutting Room Floor C&P from PF), the skill gets frozen at that level and some versions of available rules inflict penalties/reduction to the skill over time.

Seto wrote:
Crop dusting is known to be pretty inefficient, though I'd expect postwar Earth would find it completely unnecessary since the main use was for pesticides and the pests are extinct courtesy of the Zentradi. What little non-humanoid animal life exists on land was cloned back into existence by humanity, mainly for pets. I mentioned it a while back in this topic when I was identifying skills that weren't necessary for Macross II incl. outdoorsmanship, hunting, and animal husbandry

I am not necessarily restricting myself to just the M2 line, but also considering any off-world colony worlds with an ecology of their own. Given the complexity of reestablishing an ecosystem, pests are a possible development.

While I think prop. vehicles are still likely to be around, ultimately its a GM Call really if they want to use/make-available said vehicles. Said vehicles could find a home in agriculture, science, historical recreation, entertainment (racers, flying circus, historical re-enactments), eccentrics who want the retro look/feel/prestige, etc. Some of these might be able to be handled by a jet powered vehicle, but some really can't be replaced by a jet powered vehicle and get the same effect.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:24 pm
  

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A
ShadowLogan wrote:
Seto wrote:
As a retired soldier, one would assume he retains the military Pilot skill.

Assuming one doesn't change OCC that would be a valid assumption (and the skill would improve). Where things get a bit dicey is when one changes OCC in the Palladium system and which change rules are in play (2E RT and M2 do not have formal rules AFAIK, meaning Rifts or the Website's Cutting Room Floor C&P from PF), the skill gets frozen at that level and some versions of available rules inflict penalties/reduction to the skill over time.

Ah, yeah... I don't recall ever seeing rules for changing OCCs in the few Palladium products I own. It's definitely something I should look deeper into for the sake of that perennially popular plot device where a civilian falls into the cockpit and ends up becoming a soldier.


ShadowLogan wrote:
I am not necessarily restricting myself to just the M2 line, but also considering any off-world colony worlds with an ecology of their own. Given the complexity of reestablishing an ecosystem, pests are a possible development.

While I think prop. vehicles are still likely to be around, ultimately its a GM Call really if they want to use/make-available said vehicles. Said vehicles could find a home in agriculture, science, historical recreation, entertainment (racers, flying circus, historical re-enactments), eccentrics who want the retro look/feel/prestige, etc. Some of these might be able to be handled by a jet powered vehicle, but some really can't be replaced by a jet powered vehicle and get the same effect.

As a franchise, Macross definitely seems to prefer more futuristic alternatives even for civilian vehicles. Something like an ordinary propeller plane is a bit too old-timey to mesh well with the very futuristic-looking vehicles we see in most Macross titles. Most of the cars seen in the 2040s have that 90's futuristic sort of design style that Kawamori's cars from Future GPX Cyber Formula had. Aside from the occasional helicopter, most of the aircraft we see are either ducted fan lifters, multi-nozzle VTOL craft, or twin-engine tiltjets using high-bypass turbofans.

Outside of the Macross Frontier emigrant fleet, which deliberately styled itself after major cities of pre-First Space War Earth partly as a form of psychological stress relief and partly for tourism, the one exception is that in Macross M3 Max owns a sportscar that appears to be a replica of a late 1950s Ferrari 250 GT Cabriolet Pinin Farina Series I... which looks really anachronistic against the future cityscape and Milia's very 90's-futuristic motorbike.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:00 am
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
A
ShadowLogan wrote:
Seto wrote:
As a retired soldier, one would assume he retains the military Pilot skill.

Assuming one doesn't change OCC that would be a valid assumption (and the skill would improve). Where things get a bit dicey is when one changes OCC in the Palladium system and which change rules are in play (2E RT and M2 do not have formal rules AFAIK, meaning Rifts or the Website's Cutting Room Floor C&P from PF), the skill gets frozen at that level and some versions of available rules inflict penalties/reduction to the skill over time.

Ah, yeah... I don't recall ever seeing rules for changing OCCs in the few Palladium products I own. It's definitely something I should look deeper into for the sake of that perennially popular plot device where a civilian falls into the cockpit and ends up becoming a soldier.


As far as I know, your best bet is still the Robotech 1st Edition corebook. Swtiching O.C.C.s is described on page 8.

Spoiler:
  • Must Meet requirements.
  • Must reach third level or higher in original O.C.C.
  • Begins the New O.C.C. at level 0. Skills are selected, but no O.C.C. bonus are applied yet.
  • Level 0 ends 2000 exp. later. Bonuses suddenly appear and progression begins anew from the related experience table.
  • Skills of the old O.C.C. that were not cross-selected are now frozen. Only the skills covered by the new O.C.C. continue to rise.


There might be other manuals that have it, but from my last inquiry on the subject (summer of 2018-2019?), there wasn't a 2nd edition variant of these.
Apparently, the palladium staff is not a big fandom of multi-classes. Same for learning rules, that asks for a bit of imagination and possibly two other manuals.
(Rift has the Rogue Scholar "mentor" rule, and Heroes Unlimited has scholarship itself.) Plus there is technically the old New Gen, that leaves a Gm with the choice of giving free skills for long periods of down time.
Depending on the rhythm of a game, either of these could be the faster option.
Really depends if a character would be preferred has having changed his branch of the military, or just learned a new piloting skill story-wise. I personally like the options of having the three firsts cases handy. The "giving skills" section, in mentioning "decades", has more or less destroyed its own usefulness.
If one designs such a section for 2nd edition material, maybe the whole package should be covered.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:28 am
  

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xunk16 wrote:
There might be other manuals that have it, but from my last inquiry on the subject (summer of 2018-2019?), there wasn't a 2nd edition variant of these.
Apparently, the palladium staff is not a big fandom of multi-classes. Same for learning rules, that asks for a bit of imagination and possibly two other manuals.

I'm not sure how much of an issue it is for Palladium's other settings, but after some consideration I suppose it's not actually much of a concern for roleplaying Macross or Macross II.

All in all, it's pretty rare for a character in Macross to make a lifestyle change dramatic enough to be considered changing their OCC in a short period of time. It's that small handful of characters in the animation who've joined the military or a PMC and received abbreviated training due to pre-existing training being at least partly transferrable to their new occupation. TV Hikaru and Hayate. For an ordinary civilian, becoming something like a Valkyrie pilot is a three year training program so it's justified that a character with no experience wouldn't be able to just pick it up in a few days or weeks. It has been marginally more common for stories to include retired soldiers, who I guess could be seen as having retained their original OCC or at most switched to a Civilian OCC occupation that shares the same key skills like Hakuna Aoba and Chelsea Scarlett going from Valkyrie Pilot to Vanquish League Racer.

Rules for changing MOS/Occupation would probably be more relevant to cover characters who went from Civilian/Student to Civilian/Idol like Minmay or Ranka, or Vigo Walgria's really weird case of going from Civilian/Dancer to Civilian/Politician and then back to Civilian/Dancer. Or the occasional instances of someone switching to and from being a Test Pilot.

None of which is really an issue for Macross II, I suppose.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:56 am
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
For an ordinary civilian, becoming something like a Valkyrie pilot is a three year training program so it's justified that a character with no experience wouldn't be able to just pick it up in a few days or weeks. It has been marginally more common for stories to include retired soldiers, who I guess could be seen as having retained their original OCC or at most switched to a Civilian OCC occupation that shares the same key skills like Hakuna Aoba and Chelsea Scarlett going from Valkyrie Pilot to Vanquish League Racer.

Rules for changing MOS/Occupation would probably be more relevant to cover characters who went from Civilian/Student to Civilian/Idol like Minmay or Ranka, or Vigo Walgria's really weird case of going from Civilian/Dancer to Civilian/Politician and then back to Civilian/Dancer. Or the occasional instances of someone switching to and from being a Test Pilot.

None of which is really an issue for Macross II, I suppose.


Well, it is still better than nothing. But if one would be inclined to consider making these adjustments...

I suppose the Hero Unlimited version would be the closest to this 3 years requirement. (You'd still have to design which third of the skills occupy each scholar year / semester. The time frame is already more or less in "years" for a major change.)
Optionally, for civilian playing their change of occupation, they could have to learn their new skills using independent time tables, according to their new skills following either this or the Rogue Scholar time frame. (9 to 14 weeks for each skill, with the player dividing on what he / she is working at the moment. With 12 hours requiring a mentor, and 10 hours of personal work per week / skill. Around half of HU. We chose to combine this time for W.P. Handgun, since practice and learning can be mostly done as the same time and the character receiving the instruction already had training with rifles; furthermore the higher level you gain a floating skill, the less it will be able to rise.)

In case of doubt, school time would be Heroes Unlimited. Personal training with an instructor focusing on you would be the Rogue Scholar.

Change of MOS could be taken from the OCC change rule, at maybe a diminished (half) experience penalty, and keeping the lock on old MOS skill uncovered by the change. Instead of restarting the EXP scale, one would then just normally proceed to the next level of the kept OCC.
Since the experience system is highly based on heroics, the playing of the learning downtime itself should be easy to manage by a Gm, giving what he judges necessary per time-frame played. Meaning one could technically avoid the experience penalty, simply by fast-forwarding the training time.

At least that's my take on the case.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:07 am
  

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@Seto
Yeah Palladium doesn't really do changing OCCs often, and most examples I can point to are presented as specific cases (they do have common elements). The only free one I know of is the Dual OCC rules that they put up copied from Palladium Fantasy line (and not found in the main book IIRC) on the main website's cutting room floor section. Complicating things a bit also is that not every line use the OCC system, some use the Skill Program system in its place. Aside from main book settings, when I looked at getting new books in the line I tended to look for things that I might be able to transfer to Robotech (skills, hardware, creatures, applicable rules) at the time (1E, 2E has ported some of the skills).

As for Prop planes. Like I said its going to be a GM call since there are no ready available designs to use.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:40 pm
  

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So... circling back to Skills and how to adjust the RT2e skills list for Macross II (and peripherally, Macross as a whole)...

Communication Skills
  • Cryptography: Effectively redundant, given that the Electronic Countermeasures skill also covers encryption/decryption for digital communications and most communications are digital by way of radio, laser, or fold wave communication.
  • Electronic Countermeasures: Too broadly written. The portions related to detecting listening devices should probably be under the Espionage skill Detect Concealment. Instead of receiving a bonus from Cryptography, this skill should receive a bonus from Sensory Equipment.
  • Language and Literacy skills are slightly problematic given the setting. English was the designated lingua franca of the Earth Unification Government and its UN Forces, and after the First Space War it seems to have been both the official language and the native language of the postwar generations. In Macross II, most of Earth's populace have at least basic proficiency in Zentradi as well. Most, if not all, other languages are either dead (no longer anyone's first language) or extinct (nobody speaks it). I merged the Literacy skills into the Language skills, in the name of simplicity.
  • Sensory Equipment:[/b] As noted in a previous post, this skill is overly broad. I've given any particular occupation-specific skill (e.g. Electrical Engineer, Paramedic) the native ability to use sensory equipment relevant to their field. I use this mainly for specialist roles like a RIO or electronic warfare officer riding in a craft specialized for electronic warfare, signals intelligence, or airborne warning and control.
  • Sing: I moved this, Dance, Play Musical Instrument, Performance to a new category Performance Skills and added a new skill Idol as a job skill that combines many of them.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:18 pm
  

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Domestic Skills
  • Dance: Moved to performance skills, also covered under homebrew skill Idol.
  • Fishing: Useless or nearly useless in Macross II, due to the massive environmental contamination remaining from the First Space War. Edible fish are farm-raised. Also pretty useless in main timeline Macross as emigrant ships either use synthetic protein or dedicated fish farms. There are planets with edible fish like Ragna where the hobby persists, though.
  • Gardening: Limited utility in Macross II at best, due to the few settlements on Earth being very highrise-oriented and Earth itself being largely sterile.

Electrical Skills
  • Electrical Engineer: Really ought to be named Electrician.
  • Electricity Generation: Largely redundant, since most electrical power is generated from thermonuclear fusion. Potentially still useful on main timeline emigrant planets where renewable energy sources are widely used like Eden, Veil, or Ragna.
  • Protoculture Engineer: Rename to Thermonuclear Reactor Technician, the skill covers the theoretical and practical applications of thermonuclear reaction overtechnology as a source of energy and the ability to design, build, maintain, and repair thermonuclear reaction power systems.
  • Robot Electronics: Rename to Overtechnology Developer.

Espionage Skills
  • Disguise: Fine as-is, but recommend including the use of personal holographic projectors for disguise purposes for Macross II and main timeline Macross c.2060+. This naturally also ought to include a bonus to detecting when someone else is disguised or using the Impersonation skill.
  • Pick Locks: Most, if not all, locks are electronic... this skill is basically redundant.
  • Wilderness Survival: Useless for Macross II on the basis of "what wilderness?". Earth is largely desolate and the environment outside of the Nature Regeneration project work areas or cities is extremely hostile. Potentially useful for main timeline Macross, as other planets are not in the dire shape Earth is. Not even a crazy person would attempt to rough it on Earth though.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:58 pm
  

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Mechanical Skills
To be brutally frank, this section of the RT2e RAW is a bloody awful mess. There's a lot of overlap and contradiction, so its cleanup is proportionately more severe:
  • Aircraft Mechanics: As skills go, this is one going to be very niche in the Macross universe... possibly to the point of this being a redundant/unnecessary skill. Most of the aircraft seen in the Macross universes after the First Space War are space-capable, so someone with this skill is not going to have much to do. If you're of a mindset to keep this skill, I would suggest having it be inclusive of light spacecraft including surface-to-orbit shuttles and smaller jet-type fold-capable starliners.
  • Automotive Mechanics: There's a reasonable amount to do with this skill, though this too should technically include light spacecraft in its portfolio for main timeline Macross games due to most cars used in emigrant fleets being outfitted for use on a Milky Road system.
  • Basic Mechanics: Recommend changing the name to Handyman.
  • Biomechanical Maintenance (Protoculture) and Reflex System Mechanics: These two skills in the RT2e RAW are more or less the exact same thing just on slightly different scales. They can be combined into a single skill Thermonuclear Reactor Mechanics since the only appreciable difference between the compact thermonuclear reactor of a VF or Destroid and the thermonuclear reactors of your average starship is physical size.
  • Mecha Engineering and Robot Mechanics: These two skills also overlap considerably. I'd suggest consolidating them into Overtechnology Mechanics. I'd also recommend using the base skill percentage from Mecha Engineering instead of Robot Mechanics, and remove the penalty for working on military equipment as many such mechanics servicing civilian-owned mecha are retired military mechanics.
  • Robotechnology Engineering: This is a generalist skill akin to being an Omnidisciplinary Scientist. This should either be removed entirely, or renamed Overtechnology Development and turned into a specialism-type skill where the PC has vague general knowledge and picks one field to specialize in at a bonus of ~15% or so with level bonuses only for that specialty.
  • Starship Engineering: Rename to Shipwright. Ideally, small craft like transatmospheric shuttles, launches, and auxiliary service craft should be under Aircraft Mechanics as this should reflect construction of actual fold-capable spacecraft.
  • Vehicle Armorer: Remove as redundant, the vehicle customization abilities relating to adding armor or body customization should be available to the other mechanic disciplines.
  • Weapons Engineer: Split into two skills: Gunsmith (Small Arms) for anything man-portable and Armourer (Heavy/Military) for military-grade vehicle mounted weaponry.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:45 pm
  

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Medical Skills
  • Animal Husbandry: Effectively useless in Macross II or for anyone from Earth in main timeline Macross as the planet has virtually no non-humanoid animal life. Potentially useful for folks from other star systems in the main Macross timeline though.
  • Holistic Medicine: As with the above, kind of a dead field in Macross II in general and Earth in the main Macross timeline due to the obliteration of Earth's biosphere.
  • Veterinary Science: Largely useless in Macross II for the reasons stated above.
  • Xenological Medicine: Unnecessary or redundant. In Macross, the species created by the Protoculture are biologically and genetically very similar to each other (Zentradi and Humans are virtually identical) and aliens have been enmeshed in human society for so long that "alien medicine" isn't a separate field... it's just medicine. Someone with Medical Doctor, Field Surgery, Paramedic, or First Aid is just as adept at treating a Zentradi, Meltrandi, Mardook, Zolan, Ragnan, Voldoran, Windermerean, etc. as they are a Human or vice versa.


Military Skills
  • Naval History and Naval Tactics: These two skills are only really useful for a game set during the Unification Wars. After that, naval battles were consigned to the pages of history as all future warfare efforts were devoted to planetary defense and space warfare.


Physical Skills
  • Outdoorsmanship: Like the Wilderness Survival skill it requires, Outdoorsmanship is functionally useless in Macross II due to the dire state of Earth's environment. Trying to "rough it" will kill you VERY quickly. Still useful for main timeline Macross games, as other planets are not in the rough shape Earth is.
  • Swimming and SCUBA: You could, I guess... but you wouldn't want to on Earth. The oceans and rivers aren't exactly in much better shape than the rest of the planet and there's still a lot of pollution and no small amount of lingering radioactivity still being cleaned up in some areas.


Pilot Skills
  • Pilot: Boats: These three skills are still useful in main timeline Macross, but boating's no fun on Earth with its damaged oceans.
  • Horsemanship: Horses are extinct. Thus far, we haven't seen any replacement beasts of burden and Zentradi farmers are big enough to just pick up any errant livestock in the main timeline.
  • Hovercycles & Hover Vehicles: Repurpose or expand: Hoverboards and Air Blades. The only two forms of actual hovercraft yet seen in Macross (main timeline only), are a form of hover skateboard seen in Frontier and hovercraft roller blades called Air Blades seen in Macross 7 Trash that are used for certain extreme sports.
  • Mecha: Pilot Battloids: Rename to Mecha: Pilot Destroids and duplicate minus military training aspects for Mecha: Pilot Civilian Destroid.
  • Mecha: Pilot Ground Veritechs: Unneeded in Macross II, can be reused as Mecha: Pilot Ground Variable Mecha for main timeline Macross.
  • Mecha: Pilot Veritech: Rename to Mecha: Pilot Valkyrie.
  • Mecha: Pilot Civilian Valkyrie port from Macross II RAW.
  • Pilot: Spacecraft: Light and Medium: Repurpose as Pilot: Light Spacecraft for transatmospheric shuttles, fold-capable starliners, and fold-capable cargo ships.
  • Pilot: Spacecraft: Heavy: Repurpose as Pilot: Warship for military fold-capable space warships.
  • Space Fold Operations: Redundant. Any spacecraft larger than a shuttle is fold capable, so practically every trained spacecraft pilot is already qualified on fold system operation.


Science Skills
  • Archaeology: Kind of useless in Macross II given what happened to Earth, but plenty useful in main timeline Macross even if it tends to be the career equivalent of "Unwitting instigator of imminent doom" because archaeologists apparently can't read Keep Out signs even if they're alive, self-replicating, the size of a double decker bus, and bristling with technorganic weaponry.
  • Xenobiology: For the reasons given in Xenological Medicine, remove penalty.
  • Lore: Invid: Remove, as this faction does not exist in Macross.
  • Lore: Robotech Masters: Remove, as this faction does not exist in Macross.
  • Lore: Zentradi: Can keep as-is, recommended to rename to Lore: Protoculture as the history of the Zentradi and Meltrandi is fundamentally and inseparably entwined with the collapse of the ancient Protoculture's galaxy-spanning civilization and the Protoculture's interference with Humanity's evolution. (This may, after certain revelations are made to players in-game, be useful as an ad hoc Lore: Mardook as well.


Weapon Proficiencies
Doing these individually is kind of a pain, the gist being that ancient Weapon Proficiencies are likely not a thing given that everyone has guns and giant robots.


Wilderness Skills
Keep as-is for a main timeline Macross game set anywhere that isn't Earth. Ditch for Macross II, as there is no wilderness.

_________________
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Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


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