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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:25 am
  

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Knight

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which books the stats for Tokugawa battleships in second edtion.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:25 am
  

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To my recollection, the 2nd edition did not get around to stating the Tokugawa in either form.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:28 am
  

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tobefrnk wrote:
To my recollection, the 2nd edition did not get around to stating the Tokugawa in either form.


I concur. I had to reformat this one from internet scratches and other sources.
In fact, the absence of the Tokugawa is one of the major factor that pushed back our game so that I'd build the missing pieces for our Gm.
The Tristar feels very lonely without it and directly refers to it, and according to the U.E.E.F. book itself, you can't really use a G.M.U. without one.

That legendary infamous missing "ship book" would probably have been the masterpiece of the second edition line. -_-'

Now since I'm still isn't sure where the "don't post stats" officially ends, I'm hesitant to post my port of it here.
I have seen some topics that seems to have circumnavigated the rule for conversion by specific GMs, but it is all rather hazy to me.
I wonder if it'd be okay to post a "revised" description of it, now including corrected ship's complement and mecha complements at the very least. It kinda was the part that needed the most work.
All of it was based originally on the Rick R. Mortis version suitable for 1st edition gameplay, additional research, and diverse proportions described by 2nd ed..

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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:43 am
  

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Knight

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tobefrnk wrote:
To my recollection, the 2nd edition did not get around to stating the Tokugawa in either form.

Yeah, the Tokugawa seems to have had too minor a role in the series to get included in any book that was actually planned.



xunk16 wrote:
The Tristar feels very lonely without it [...]

How so? The UEDF literally doesn't use the Tokugawa-class, the UEEF explicitly doesn't use the Tokugawa-class if they can at all help it because it's rubbish as a warship.



xunk16 wrote:
That legendary infamous missing "ship book" would probably have been the masterpiece of the second edition line. -_-'

Almost certainly not, no... it would much more likely have been something like the UEEF Marines book - a disjointed and heavily padded book of misfit toys - given that it existed as a catch-all for ships that weren't put in the books for their respective sagas.



xunk16 wrote:
Now since I'm still isn't sure where the "don't post stats" officially ends, I'm hesitant to post my port of it here.
I have seen some topics that seems to have circumnavigated the rule for conversion by specific GMs, but it is all rather hazy to me.

The "Don't Post Stats" rule is something that came with the Robotech RPG's 2nd Edition, seemingly hand-in-hand with the more general "No Conversions" rule. It seems have been partly to stop longtime fans from eroding demand for new books by posting their own updates of stats from the 1st Edition, but mainly to prevent the otherwise-inevitable legal problems caused by fans "borrowing" material from other games and franchise (ESPECIALLY Macross). Likely the same reason the Rifter refused to take Robotech fan submissions.

Basically, it's OK to post the "fluff" (AKA "lore"), the stuff that has no mechanical effect on gameplay, of something that isn't in the books... just not the "crunch", the stuff that is actually used for play like MDC values and weapon ranges/damages.

(For the stuff that IS in the books, the usual rule of thumb has always been to post the minimum amount necessary for the purposes of the discussion at hand.)

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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:46 am
  

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Monk

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The Art of the SC book says it is 1196 meters long and has a crew of 2,800, with total capacity for 150,000 people. On the Mecha Data pages.

From what I counted from the artwork there are 12 Ikazuchi class style main turrets (single barrel instead of triple barreled) and about double that in AA lasers, with four AA Ls around the main :rolleyes: flying bridge.
Half on the dorsal and half on the nominal underside of the ship.

Note I believe that this describes the UEEF variant/refit of this class. Cause the art book distinctly has the artwork for the SC class of this ship, and I was describing what is seen in the RT:SC movie.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:26 pm
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Note I believe that this describes the UEEF variant/refit of this class. Cause the art book distinctly has the artwork for the SC class of this ship, [...]

Yes, the text in The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles only describes the ~2043 UEEF Shadow technology refit version of the Tokugawa-class.

It may not even be correct to refer to it as a class-wide refit, as the description only mentions the lead ship of the class (the Tokugawa, under Vince Grant) receiving the refit and we know that ship was lost in its first-and-only battle when it was sunk in a single hit by the Icarus.


drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
[...] and I was describing what is seen in the RT:SC movie.
[/quote]
... there are no Tokugawa-class ships in the Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles movie.

The only place that the Tokugawa-class refit was ever depicted was in the limited comic Robotech: Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles. Only one was depicted, Vince Grant's Tokugawa, which was short-lived to say the least.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:46 pm
  

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They did a 3D computer graphic and that need up in the Artbook. Which is why I could give some mostly accurate numbers of weapon's turrets.

It has been too long since I watched RT:TSC movie the background stuff is like ...'yah there were lots of ships in the shot...numbers?...type...there were the CV's and BC's that I remember.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 3:31 am
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
xunk16 wrote:
The Tristar feels very lonely without it [...]

How so? The UEDF literally doesn't use the Tokugawa-class, the UEEF explicitly doesn't use the Tokugawa-class if they can at all help it because it's rubbish as a warship.


From the Master Saga p.94 :
The UEEF even took a few Tristars on thier mission, along with their Tokugawa battleships, a testament to the ship's power and versatility.

Here you go. We have the ship that is supposed to keep the front line, but we don't have the big weak point the enemy is supposed to go for and where the troops are stationed. I don't know about you but I also think a little diversity goes a long way for the sake of interesting space battles. Even ones where the heroes might get their proverbial bottom kicked.
Plus, technically, there is a long while to play and explore between the fall of Khyron and the great departure of the Pioneer mission. During that time, Tokugawa were built most probably one by one and most certainly had some patrol action field test alongside the Tristars. But of course, that part is only speculation.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Basically, it's OK to post the "fluff" (AKA "lore"), the stuff that has no mechanical effect on gameplay, of something that isn't in the books... just not the "crunch", the stuff that is actually used for play like MDC values and weapon ranges/damages.


Ok then. So here is the stuff I can give from my variant... I think. It hasn't been peer reviewed of proofread by others yet, so there might still be some imperfections in there.

Spoiler:
SDLS / SDCV Tokugawa Class Super-Dimensional Landing Ship / Carrier Vessel
The Tokugawa class ships are among the most powerful ships of the UEDF and UEEF’s fleets. The Tokugawa class were also some of the earliest ships created by the UEEF, originally for the purpose of escorting the SDF-2 on the expeditionary mission to Tirol. With the destruction of the SDF-2, the Tokugawas were used for patrols throughout the solar system, and hunting down remaining Zentraedi ships still lurking within. With the completion of the SDF-3 (built out of Breetai’s flagship), the Tokugawa class ships were assigned to the Pioneer Mission and finally left for the Valivarre system in 2022.

The Tokugawa’s primary asset is the huge amount of mecha and crew it can carry. Three of the four ships were converted over to landing ships (SDLS) to carry the UEEF-MC into battle. The other ship of the class, the SDCV Hannibal was used as a carrier for the UEEF’s fighters. Despite the large mecha and fighter complement it could carry, the Tokugawa class ships were relatively weak in ship-to-ship combat compared to other, similar-sized, vessels. Most notably, the Tokugawa lacked a heavy cannon armament like the previous, or later, Super-Dimensional Fortresses. (Even some of the “cheap” ones, re-built from Dolza’s fleet scrapyard.) This was one of the main reasons why they were eventually replaced with the Ikazuchi and Liberator (SDF-4) class ships.

A total of four Tokugawa were built*, the Tokugawa, Hannibal, Marcus Antonius, and Archangel. The UEEF sent the Hannibal back to Earth under the command of Major John Carpenter to rejoin the Southern Cross and aid them against the Robotech Masters. However, it was destroyed in a failed attack on the Master’s fleet. A relief fleet lead by the Marcus Antonius was sent back to Earth by the UEEF under the command of Colonel Jonathan Wolff, arriving late in the Second Robotech War. It was later hijacked by the 15th ATAC, and sent back to Tirol loaded with refugees from the Master’s motherships.

However, due to faulty fold drives, it had suffered severe stresses and was decommissioned. The Archangel became the flagship of the Sentinels after the destruction of the Farrago. It was later refitted with a Shadow Device and updated fold drives, and served the Saturn Division. Later, the Archangel was used by Scott Bernard, Vince and Jean Grant in their quest to find the Missing SDF-3.

Finally the Tokugawa was used by the UEDF loyalists during the UEEF Civil War as a fleet flagship. It was destroyed when it was rammed by Edward’s flagship, the Xerxes an Ikazuchi-class command carrier.

*Certain versions pushes this to 6 by 2022.

__________________________________________________


Model Type : Super Dimensional Landing Ship (SDLS) / Super Dimensional Carrier Vessel (SDCV).
Class : UEG Robotech Factory Tokugawa Class

Ship’s Complement SDCV (2022):
Ship’s Crew : 2’600
Ship’s Air Group : 3’500
    Bridge Crew : Ship’s Captain (1), Executive Officer (1), Helm (6), Nav (6), Comms / Sensors (26), Air Boss (1), Air Boss Assistant / Mini-Boss (15), Security (4 Military Police armed with M-25C Carbines).
    Combat Information Centre : Operations Commander (1), Commander’s Aides (2), CAG (1, Commander of the ship’s air group), Comms Team (32), Ship’s Weapons Crew (24), Pinpoint Barrier Operators (4), Command Security (5 Military Police armed with M-25C Carbines).
    Ship’s Operations : Engineering (162), Admin (60), Medical (52), Supply (60), Military Police (156), General Enlisted (1981).
    Air Group : Veritech Pilots (624), Non-Variable Fighter / Shuttle Pilots (506), Medical Corpsmen (47), and Other Air Group Personnel (2323).

Troop Complement :
UEEF-AF (14’695), UEEF-MC (400)
    Air Force : Veritech Pilots (1196), UAV Operators (1000), UEEF-AF Aviators (2702), Medical Corpsmen (195), and Other Air Force Enlisted (9602).
    Marine Corps : Marine Infantry (351, including 35-50 vehicle weapon specialists, all forming one battalion of 4 companies), Medical Corpsmen (7), Spartas Hover Tank Pilots (26), Ground Operation Command (16, including 1 ground operation commander [O-5], 2 Executive Officers [O-4], 4 Company Commanders [O-3], 4 Medical Officers, and 5 Mecha Maintenance Crew).

Mecha Complement SDCV (2022) :
SDCV’s Naval Air Group :
    Veritech Fighters : 624 Total.
    500 VF/A-6 Alpha (H, I, or Z Variant).
    100 VF-1 “Super” Veritech Fighters
    10 VEF-1 Recon Veritech Fighters.
    6 VFA-8 Logan Recon Veritechs
    8 VF-1V Vindicator Trainers / Fast Couriers
    Non-Variable Fighters : 500 Total.
    500 SF/A-5 Conbat Heavy Ordnance Aerospace Strike Fighters.
    Logistics and Auxiliary : 6 Total.
    2 EC-32 Raven TAWACS Shuttles
    4 SC-32 Roc MLCS Shuttles.

SDCV’s Air Force Complement :
    Veritech Figthers : 1196 Total.
    1000 VF/A-6 Alpha (H, I, or Z Variant).
    100 VFA-8 Logan Veritech Fighters
    72 VF-1V Vindicators Veritech Fighters
    24 YF-4 Valkyrie prototypes, in two squadrons each including one “Flight Lead” variant.
    Non-Variable Figthers : 3702 Total.
    1000 QF-3000 Ghost UAVs
    936 SF-3A Lancer II
    750 SF/A-5 Conbat Aerospace Strike Fighters
    480 FA-110 Falcon II Multirole Fighters
    440 FA-109A / B Sylphid Attack Fighters
    96 SA-10 Hornet Aerospace Fighters.

SDCV’s Marine Battalion :
    Veritech Tanks : 41 Total.
    26 VHT-1A1 Spartas Hover Tanks (A, J, or S)
    15 VBT-1A1 Centaur Veritechs Battle Tanks.
    Non-Variable Combat Vehicles : 36 Total.
    20 IFHV-03-Mk.II Archon APC / Tank.
    16 FSB-03-Mk.I Daniel Artillery Platform.
    Cyclone Infantry : 268 Total.
    268 CBA-07 Walker Battloids.

__________________________________________________


Ship’s Complement SDCV – UES Hannibal (2029):
Ship’s Crew : 2’600 under the command of Major John Carpenter (O-4).
Ship’s Air Group : 3’500, divisions unchanged.
Troop Complement : UEEF-MC (400)
    Air Force : When the Hannibal left to rejoin the ASC’s war effort against the Robotech Masters, the Expeditionary Mission did not yet knew of their temporal displacement, neither were they aware that the Master’s fleet had already arrived and engaged Earth forces. At the time, and considering the long campaign in front of them, it was thus decided to send back the Super-Dimensional Carrier Vessel without its Air Force Complement and rather redistribute it among other SDLS and occupation / defence forces of the expeditionary mission.
    Marine Corps : 400 forming a single battalion of 4 companies, division unchanged.

Mecha Complement SDCV (2029) :
SDCV’s Naval Air Group :
    Veritech Fighters : 624 Total, divisions unchanged.
    Non-Variable Fighters : 500 Total, divisions unchanged.
    Logistics and Auxiliary : 6 Total, divisions unchanged.

SDCV’s Air Force Complement : 0, unit disbanded and mecha redistributed among other occupational and defensive forces.

SDCV’s Marine Battalion :
    Veritech Tanks : 41 Total.
    26 VHT-1A1 Spartas Hover Tanks (A, J, or S)
    15 VBT-1A1 Centaur Veritechs Battle Tanks.
    Non-Variable Combat Vehicles : 36 Total.
    20 IFHV-03-Mk.II Archon APC / Tank.
    16 FSB-03-Mk.I Daniel Artillery Platform.
    Cyclone Infantry : 800 Total.
    300 VR-011 Rifleman
    50 VR-015 Spider
    50 VR-017 Crusader
    200 VR-021 Nova
    200 VR-024 Comet
    Note : This cyclone complement was designed in the thought that the on-board infantry battalion would be prepared for any situations.
    Furthermore, the extra supplies could have been used to train new cyclone operators and offered the R&D divisions of the ASC a chance to retro-engineer these older models. However, this was not to be...
    While the primary objective of the UES Hannibal was simply to re-connect with the ASC and give them a status update, it unfolded right in the middle of a space battle against the Robotech Master’s fleet. The Hannibal chose to lend assistance and was quickly destroyed, with most of its crew filed as Killed or Missing In Action. With the intensity of the 2nd Robotech War reaching its peak soon after; there was little time to scavenge the Hannibal’s wreck before the initial Invid invasion, and very few people able to do it afterwards...

__________________________________________________


Ship’s Complement SDLS (2022):
Ship’s Crew : 2045
Ship’s Air Group : 1050
    Bridge Crew : Ship’s Captain (1), Executive Officer (1), Helm (6), Nav (6), Comms / Sensors (26), Air Boss (1), Air Boss Assistant / Mini-Boss (6), Security (4 Military Police armed with M-25C Carbines).
    Combat Information Center : Operations Commander (1), Commander’s Aides (2), CAG (1, Commander of the ship’s air group), Comms Team (25), Ship’s Weapons Crew (24), Pinpoint Barrier Operators (4), Command Security (5 Military Police armed with M-25C Carbines).
    Ship’s Operations : Engineering (162), Admin (51), Medical (40), Supply (51), Military Police (122), and General Enlisted (1506).
    Air Group : Veritech Pilots (247), Non-Variable Fighter / Shuttle Pilots (131), Medical Corpsmen (13), and Other Air Group personnel (659).

Troop Complement :
UEEF-AF (5’100), UEEF-MC (13’000)
    Air Force : Veritech Pilots (1000), UEEF-AF Aviators (750), Medical Corpsmen (67), and Other Air Force Enlisted (3283).
    Marine Corps : Marine Infantry (3’600, including 315-450 vehicle weapon specialists, all forming three battalions of 6 companies each), Medical Corpsmen (63), Spartas Hover Tank Pilots (234), Destroid Crew (1022, including 720 Destroid Pilots, 282 Destroid Weapon Specialists, and 20 Destroid Commanders), Ground Operation Command (392, including 1 ground operation commander [at least O-6], 20 Military Advisers, 3 X.O. / Battalions Commanders [at least O-5], 17 Commander’s Aides, 18 Company Commanders [at least O-3], 20 Security Team, 41 Medical Team, 62 Infantry Mecha Maintenance Crew, 210 other UEEF-MC command staff & communication), and Other UEEF-MC Enlisted personnel (7689).

Mecha Complement SDLS (2022) :
SDLS’s Naval Air Group :
    Veritech Figthers : 247, Total.
    100 VF/A-6 Alpha (H, I, or Z Variant).
    125 VF-1 “Super” Veritech Fighters
    10 VEF-1 Recon Veritech Fighters.
    6 VFA-8 Logan Recon Veritechs
    6 VF-1V Vindicator Trainers / Fast Couriers
    Non-Variable Figthers : 125, Total.
    125 SF/A-5 Conbat Heavy Ordnance Aerospace Strike Fighters.
    Logistics and Auxiliary : 6, Total.
    2 EC-32 Raven TAWACS Shuttles
    4 SC-32 Roc MLCS Shuttles.

SDLS’s Air Force Complement :
    Veritech Figthers : 1000, Total.
    1000 VF/A-6 Alpha (H, I, or Z Variant).
    Non-Variable Figthers : 750, Total.
    750 SF/A-5 Conbat Aerospace Strike Fighters.

SDLS’s Marine Battalions :
    Veritech Tanks : 364, Total.
    234 VHT-1A1 Spartas Hover Tanks (A, J, or S)
    130 VBT-1A1 Centaur Veritechs Battle Tanks.
    Non-Variable Combat Vehicles : 320, Total.
    180 IFHV-03-Mk.II Archon APC / Tank.
    140 FSB-03-Mk.I Daniel Artillery Platform.
    Cyclone Infantry : 2400, Total.
    2400 CBA-07 Walker Battloids.
    Destroid Crew : 720, Total.
    Approximately 280 fast strike Destroids;
      ZBR-01 Mk.II Infantry Battlepod,
      ZBR-02 Mk.IV Officer’s Battlepod,
      MBR-08-Mk.VI Spartan,
      MBR-12 Mk.II Condor.
    Approximately 245 heavy battle Destroids;
      MBR-05-Mk.X Tomahawk,
      MBR-12-Mk.II Valiant.
    Approximately 175 Missile / AAA Destroids;
      SDR-05-Mk.XV Phalanx,
      ADR-05-Mk.XIV Defender.
    Approximately 20 heavy artillery Destroids;
      HWR-00-Mk.II Monster,
      HWR-02-Mk.VII Monster.

__________________________________________________


Ship’s Complement SDLS (2035):
Ship’s Crew : 2045
Ship’s Air Group : 1050
    Bridge Crew : Ship’s Captain (1), Executive Officer (1), Helm (6), Nav (6), Comms / Sensors (26), Air Boss (1), Air Boss Assistant / Mini-Boss (6), Security (4 Military Police armed with M-25C Carbines).
    Combat Information Center : Operations Commander (1), Commander’s Aides (2), CAG (1, Commander of the ship’s air group), Comms Team (25), Ship’s Weapons Crew (24), Pinpoint Barrier Operators (4), Command Security (5 Military Police armed with M-25C Carbines).
    Ship’s Operations : Engineering (162), Admin (51), Medical (40), Supply (51), Military Police (122), and General Enlisted (1506).
    Air Group : Veritech Pilots (406), Shuttle Pilots (12), Medical Corpsmen (12), and Other Air Group personnel (620).

Troop Complement :
UEEF-AF (5’100), UEEF-MC (13’000)
    Air Force : Veritech Pilots (1750), Medical Corpsmen (67), and Other Air Force Enlisted (3283).
    Marine Corps : Marine Infantry (7’200, including 320 vehicle weapon specialists, all forming six battalions of 6 companies each), Medical Corpsmen (126), Ground Veritech Pilots (364), Destroid Crew (1022, including 720 Destroid Pilots, 282 Destroid Weapon Specialists, and 20 Destroid Commanders.), 130 Golem Pilots, Ground Operation Command (1005, including 1 ground operation commander [ at least O-6], 50 Military Advisers, 6 X.O. / Battalions Commanders [at least O-5], 44 Commander’s Aides, 36 Company Commanders [at least O-3], 50 Security Team, 105 Medical Team, 160 Infantry Mecha Maintenance Crew, 553 other UEEF-MC command staff & communication), and Other UEEF-MC Enlisted personnel (3153).

Mecha Complement SDLS (2035) :
SDLS’s Naval Air Group :
    Veritech Figthers : 402, Total.
    240 VF/A-6 Alpha (H, I, or Z Variant), or QF/A-7A Shadowdrones.
    156 VF/B-9 Betas
    6 VF-1V Vindicator Trainers / Fast Couriers
    Logistics and Auxiliary : 306, Total.
    2 EC-32 Raven TAWACS Shuttles
    4 SC-32 Roc MLCS Shuttles.
    300 VR-050 Series Cyclones.

SDLS’s Air Force Complement :
    Veritech Figthers : 1750, Total.
    1000 VF/A-6 Alpha (H, I, or Z Variant), or QF/A-7A Shadowdrones.
    750 VF/B-9 Betas

SDLS’s Marine Battalions :
    Ground Veritech : 364, Total.
    234 VHT-1A1 Spartas Hover Tanks (A, J, or S)
    130 VM-9 Silverback (L, H, or E) High Mobility Veritech Strike Vehicle.
    Non-Variable Combat Vehicles : 450, Total.
    180 IFHV-03-Mk.II Archon APC / Tank.
    140 FSB-03-Mk.I Daniel Artillery Platform.
    130 ISB-02-Mk.I Golem Infantry Support Battloid.
    Cyclone Infantry : 7200, Total.
    5200 VR-050 Series Cyclones
    900 VR-040 Series Cyclones
    1100 VR-030 Series Cyclones.
    Destroid Crew : 720, Total.
    Approximately 280 fast strike Destroids;
      ZBR-10 Mk.I Bioroid Interceptor,
      MBR-08-Mk.VI Spartan,
      MBR-12 Mk.II Condor.
    Approximately 245 heavy battle Destroids;
      MBR-05-Mk.X Tomahawk,
      MBR-12-Mk.II Valiant.
    Approximately 175 Missile / AAA Destroids;
      SDR-05-Mk.XV Phalanx,
      ADR-05-Mk.XIV Defender.
    Approximately 20 heavy artillery Destroids;
      HWR-00-Mk.II Monster,
      HWR-02-Mk.VII Monster.

Note : Tokugawa class ships were originally built as long range expeditionary carriers, sturdy, long lasting, and providing enough troops to adapt in case of unforeseen circumstances. A GM running a campaign on a Tokugawa might want to play it at different moments in time, or see it evolve around the players from 2022 to 2035 as cyclone series get developed, VF-1 get destroyed or mothballed, and giant Destroids gets abandoned in pieces on the battlefield of alien worlds while replaced by their smaller counterparts. All of this ask to understand a bit more about the space for the loadout than the loadout themselves…
An SDLS or SDCV can contain as much as 21’195 personnel, each separated in their respective category : Ship’s Crew (Naval Air Group), Army Corps, and Air Force. In each of these groups, there will be as long as is possible 1/3rd active troops, for 2/3rd general enlisted personnel. While the first third shouldn’t change much from what is previously described, the last one will vary greatly as pilots gets killed, security corpsmen (Military Police – represents 6% of enlisted personnel) and medical corpsmen (Paramedics – 2% of enlisted personnel) gets replaced, or tech and engineering crews gets refurbished. In other words, the general personnel will generally have to fill the role of the deceased until it is no longer possible. In which case the Security Corpsmen and Paramedics will start to have to share the indispensable jobs.
In addition, these following tips could give a bit of flexibility to the mecha and vehicle complements :
    • Each Tokugawa class ship left Earth with ONE Titan G.M.U. (& EDROP) on board. The crew of which must be taken from the relevant General Enlisted personnel. If a G.M.U. was dropped and the crew replaced afterwards, the Tokugawa class ship can still take a G.M.U. on board, but a foreign crew will have to make their quarters inside their Titan.
    • Each couple of post-UNDF Destroids can be replaced by a single old Destroid of the same type and one ISB-02-Mk.I Golem Infantry Support Battloid (generally on SDLS). Giant Destroids were more common in the early days of the UEEF, since all of them were recycled units from the Macross Era of robotechnology.
    As they got destroyed, or irremediably broke down, they only got replaced by the New Destroids variants; both cheaper, and stronger. But even the New Destroids were not to last.
    The introduction of the VR-030 series cyclones (2032-2044) pushed the UEEF-MC to revise their tactics, slowly phasing out the production of destroids in favour of the surprisingly effective veritech ride armour. During the same period, the Z-Series destroids also phased out in favor of a heavier production of ZBR-10 Mk.I Bioroid Interceptor.
    Gamemaster can chose to replace any destroyed squadron quantity of ZBR-01 MK.II Infantry Battlepods with Bioroid interceptors as soon as 2025 (after the liberation of Tirol from the Invid).
    • VM-9 Silverbacks were not created prior to 2034 (at which point there were no longer any serviceable VF-1 squadron in the fleet). Their inherent modular frame allows Tokugawa crews to attach them in pieces on the wall of old VF-1 hangars. While you should not replace anything to include Silverbacks in your complement, keep in mind that each 4 VM-9 needs a space equivalent to an old VF-1 hangar bay to be assembled. This could become a logistic issue for crews of fully loaded Tokugawa class ships still fielding their YF-4s, or VF-1V Vindicator squadrons…
    • While the VF-1 are often considered the “best veritech ever built” by pilots; flight deck crews, supply administrators and mecha maintenance engineers of the UEEF tends to disagree. This is mostly due to their over-complicated design, full of beginner’s mistakes, and well earned title of “most humongous protoculture guzzlers” ever built...
    Furthermore, by 2022, the Valkyrie Fighters had already seen its service life extended not once, but thrice (Armored Valkyrie, Super Valkyrie, VF-2 Jotun). Thus, this schism lead to diverse programs in order to replace Valkyries as main veritech fighters of the fleet.
    In the face of blinding expectations however, neither the YF-4 or VF-1V ever managed to dethrone the Valkyrie’s reputation, nor amazing combat records. And while the VF/A-6 Alpha did eventually took the title of main veritech fighter, the Expeditionary Fleet still left Earth bringing all the working Valkyries they could afford to recycle.
    In game terms this means that VF-1 Valkyries on board Tokugawa class ships never gets replaced; once it’s destroyed, it’s gone.
    However, during the first half of the UEEF’s campaign against the Invid Regent, some R&D officers could push here or there for a revival of the YF-4, or VF-1V program; both of which would take the same hangar space per unit.
    From 2032 onward, there should not be any more effort given in that direction however. One VF-1 Valkyrie, YF-4, or VF-1V could still be replaced by two VF/A-6 Alphas, two QF/A-7A Shadowdrones, or one VF/B-9 Beta. All of this eventually leading to the previously described mecha complement of the SDLS UES Archangel by 2035.
    • Each CBA-07 Walker can eventually be replaced by VR-010 Series cyclones as soon as 2025 (after Tirol’s liberation). From there onward, Cyclone production would only increase; with mecha complements of Tokugawa class ships often surpassing their previously given numbers. (For a maximum of 8000 units on board at any given time except if cutting on something else…)
    From 2032 onward, any number of CBA-07 Walker or VR-010 Series Cyclones could be replaced by one VR-030, VR-040, or VR-050 Series Cyclone. (It is unknown if any Tokugawa ever reached its maximal capacity.)
    • Any number of complete Cyclone Armour can be replaced by 73% of heavier and bulkier VR-020 as soon as 2025 (after Tirol’s liberation).
    Example : 2000 VR-030, or VR-010 Series Cyclones could be replaced by 1460 VR-020 Series Space Cyclones.
    Keep in mind that the first VR-010 and VR-020 Series Cyclones were still prototypes tested directly in battlefield condition. A full platoon (16-40 Marines) of assorted Cyclones was a rare occurrence at first, and full companies of such units would not be a common sight until 2030 at best.

4 pages of stats and rules censorred...

And then there is the systems of note... But that is mostly the easiest part to deduce. I could expunge the stats and post the reminder of the text, though I doubt it would still be relevant.


drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
The Art of the SC book says it is 1196 meters long and has a crew of 2,800, with total capacity for 150,000 people. On the Mecha Data pages.


Hum... I sadly didn't had access to this. So my numbers are consistently not on par with these figures. In the end though, one could always use cross product to reflect those numbers if they wished.
I chose to include the Vindicator, and also ported it to 2nd ed standards; simply because I felt that, as an original Robotech creation (from an A.E. but still), it would be nice to have something fill the "giant fighter" space left open by the disappearance of VF-1s. I also liked the idea of them being built in prevision of supplemental Troodi forces that never showed up.
As for the Hornet, I had some space left... that the version I based this on proposed only nonexistent mechs for. Mostly referring to barely finished concept art for "The Sentinels". Since I wanted to work from known material as much as possible, and since our game considered "The Untold Story" to be canonical, the Hornet seemed like a good filler. Feel free to replace it with what suits you best.
The last thing you might find hard to input is the Centaur. This was also based and revamped from online sources, mostly because the comic continuity seemed the most relevant with the stuff referred to by second edition supplements. (Though some feel this should only include "Prelude to Shadow Chronicle".)

Well. At least I hope some of you might have fun with this.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 3:54 am
  

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literally your best bet is to take the reference material from the robotech.com robopedia entry, and then cross reference the ARMD and Tristar stats to produce your own.

https://robotech.com/roboverse/mecha/to ... battleship

this is also the best approach for the SDF-3
https://robotech.com/roboverse/mecha/sdf-3
(note that said page has some.. very interesting timeline information about the pioneer mission)

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:24 am
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
this is also the best approach for the SDF-3
https://robotech.com/roboverse/mecha/sdf-3
(note that said page has some.. very interesting timeline information about the pioneer mission)


Sounds like we're in for an harder reboot this time around.
Oh well.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:33 am
  

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Quote:
From the Master Saga p.94 :
The UEEF even took a few Tristars on thier mission, along with their Tokugawa battleships, a testament to the ship's power and versatility.


The ships of that type of design could barely deal with the masters.....power and versatility? :lol:

I just said screw it and wrote/rewrote them all up myself and used 4 or 5 differing sources to get a good balanced take on them.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:08 pm
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
They did a 3D computer graphic and that need up in the Artbook. Which is why I could give some mostly accurate numbers of weapon's turrets.

Nope... that's labeled as key art, meaning it's a 2D drawing that was created as design reference material for the artists working on the comic.


drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
It has been too long since I watched RT:TSC movie the background stuff is like ...'yah there were lots of ships in the shot...numbers?...type...there were the CV's and BC's that I remember.

My brain, unfortunately, retains that kind of pointless trivia really well... there were 395 ships in the UEEF's 3rd ERF in the animation. 30 individual (copy-pasted) formations of one Ikazuchi-class carrier and twelve Garfish-class escorts, and one command group of the SDF-4 escorted by four Shimakaze-class escorts. One of the more fun lazy things to notice is every ship of a type is using the same texture as its fellows, so they all have identical markings which are also mirrored instead of being drawn in full so you can occasionally spot backwards text on them.





xunk16 wrote:
From the Master Saga p.94 :
The UEEF even took a few Tristars on thier mission, along with their Tokugawa battleships, a testament to the ship's power and versatility.

Granted, but the important bit from the Infopedia got left out:

"Due to the vulnerability of these ships in a stand-up fight, many were relegated to transport duties later into the Expeditionary Force mission." - Infopedia, Tokugawa entry

To wit, those ships were only powerful and versatile on paper. Their performance in actual combat was so dismal the UEEF brass removed the surviving ships from the order of battle and reassigned them to rear-echelon duties as freighters hauling men and materiel behind friendly lines.

(While it's certainly coincidental, this fact provides a realistic explanation for why the Tokugawa-class ship operating under the callsign "Recon One" in Ep47 was commanded by low-ranking officer like Major John Carpenter. The Tokugawa-class are operated as logistical support ships, which are normally commanded by lower-ranking officers like Lieutenant Commanders. In the original, the ship was named Hannibal and was a capital ship from the Liberte Frontier Guard under the command of Colonel George Lombard.)



xunk16 wrote:
I don't know about you but I also think a little diversity goes a long way for the sake of interesting space battles. Even ones where the heroes might get their proverbial bottom kicked.
Plus, technically, there is a long while to play and explore between the fall of Khyron and the great departure of the Pioneer mission. During that time, Tokugawa were built most probably one by one and most certainly had some patrol action field test alongside the Tristars. But of course, that part is only speculation.

When it's justified, sure. In the UEEF's case, it makes a lot more sense for there to be only a few classes of frontline warship because they're operating in enemy territory and standardization of repair and replacement parts would go a long way towards making the fleet less dependent on regular resupply given that the setting lacks the manufacturing "cheats" from more advanced sci-fi stories.

Given how poorly they're indicated to perform, the only way I could see working a Tokugawa-class or Tristar-class ship into a UEEF scenario would be as either the transport the protagonists arrive aboard before the start of the campaign, as a largely defenseless ship in distress that needs to be rescued, or as a wreck to be boarded for investigatory purposes.





xunk16 wrote:
The Tokugawa class ships are among the most powerful ships of the UEDF and UEEF’s fleets.

Oh my, no... the opposite is true, for the reasons given above. They're pretty much useless in a fight. That's why they ended up being repurposed as freighters.


xunk16 wrote:
With the completion of the SDF-3 (built out of Breetai’s flagship),[...]

Nope... in the Sentinels animation, the SDF-3 is explicitly a human-manufactured warship with a false outer hull made to imitate the visual aesthetic of a Zentradi ship.


xunk16 wrote:
A relief fleet lead by the Marcus Antonius was sent back to Earth by the UEEF under the command of Colonel Jonathan Wolff, arriving late in the Second Robotech War. It was later hijacked by the 15th ATAC, and sent back to Tirol loaded with refugees from the Master’s motherships.

On the one occasion they've shown the relief fleet in question, the only ships seen were New Generation designs.


xunk16 wrote:
However, due to faulty fold drives, it had suffered severe stresses and was decommissioned. The Archangel became the flagship of the Sentinels after the destruction of the Farrago. It was later refitted with a Shadow Device and updated fold drives, and served the Saturn Division. Later, the Archangel was used by Scott Bernard, Vince and Jean Grant in their quest to find the Missing SDF-3.

Only one ship of the class is noted to have been even still in service come the shadow tech refit, and that was the Tokugawa... which was fatally disabled in a single hit by an escort ship a fraction of her size and what was left of the ship after its uncontrolled reentry crashed on Optera. Not a ringing endorsement of the improved design.

The ship used to search for the SDF-3 was the Ark Angel, the leading (and only surviving) ship of the Ark Angel-class, which was launched in extremis before completion to evacuate Space Station Liberty while the station and all the other incomplete Ark Angel-class spaceframes were compacted into a singularity by a neutron-s warhead detonation.


xunk16 wrote:
Finally the Tokugawa was used by the UEDF loyalists during the UEEF Civil War as a fleet flagship. It was destroyed when it was rammed by Edward’s flagship, the Xerxes an Ikazuchi-class command carrier.

Edwards had a surface posting in R&D on Tirol until it was discovered that he was a traitor, and his ONLY ship was the brand-new Shimakaze-class Icarus he stole when he fled the planet and set up shop on Optera. The Icarus was later taken by Vince Grant to evacuate the survivors of the Tokugawa's crew from Optera after Edwards was killed by an orbital bombardment carried out by the newly-repaired and refitted SDF-3 and remained in Vince Grant's command until he jumped ship to the incomplete Ark Angel.





xunk16 wrote:
Sounds like we're in for an harder reboot this time around.
Oh well.

Eh... it's not so much a reboot as a shutdown, TBH.

Development of new animated Robotech animated works was defunded over a decade ago, trying to fund new development via Kickstarter was an epic failure, the one comic series they had was quietly put on indefinite hiatus after a significant readership loss with a hilarious excuse that obviously doesn't check out, most of their merchandising partners have left and been replaced by bootleg-tier outfits (or actual bootleggers), and HG has lost a string of legal battles with Macross's owners over the last year or so that've cost them their trademarks in the UK, EU, and PRC and revealed the franchise is in even worse shape than the most pessimistic fans predicted.

Basically, they put up any old thing because there's nothing new coming... that's also why there are so many broken links and empty articles on the "new" site. They've given up.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:47 pm
  

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xunk16 wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:
this is also the best approach for the SDF-3
https://robotech.com/roboverse/mecha/sdf-3
(note that said page has some.. very interesting timeline information about the pioneer mission)


Sounds like we're in for an harder reboot this time around.
Oh well.


actually that page dates from the first continuity 'reboot'. it just requires some extra effort to reach since it does not have a direct entry in the robopedia. bad site design on the part of robotech.com
you'll notice that the shadow chronicles RPG main book actually conforms to that in its fluff about the bioroid interceptor and in other places. as they talk about the UEEF fighting many battles on their way to tirol.

unfortunately UEEF marines got written by someone who didn't do enough research into the current state of the canon, resulting in the use of the pre-reboot novel continuity timeline. which also conflicted with the Prelude comic series in many details (such as the date of the battles of optera and the death of the regent)

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:27 pm
  

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jaymz wrote:
Quote:
From the Master Saga p.94 :
The UEEF even took a few Tristars on thier mission, along with their Tokugawa battleships, a testament to the ship's power and versatility.


The ships of that type of design could barely deal with the masters.....power and versatility? :lol:

I just said screw it and wrote/rewrote them all up myself and used 4 or 5 differing sources to get a good balanced take on them.

The Tri-Star though is said to be upto taking on the Zentreadi though in the RT.com Infopedia. "...the Tristar would have easily held its own against the far larger vessels of the alien giants. However, the enemy it encountered were the Robotech Masters, whose vastly superior technology meant that the Tristar could often only barely hold its own in combat."-RT.com Infoepia's Tri-Star Entry (https://robotech.com/roboverse/mecha/tr ... ss-cruiser), said entry also mentions its use by the REF. What this amounts to is the Masters > Zentreadi in terms of technology (even running on empty), which would explain why the appear to be barely adequate.

glitterboy2098 wrote:
literally your best bet is to take the reference material from the robotech.com robopedia entry, and then cross reference the ARMD and Tristar stats to produce your own.

https://robotech.com/roboverse/mecha/to ... battleship

this is also the best approach for the SDF-3
https://robotech.com/roboverse/mecha/sdf-3
(note that said page has some.. very interesting timeline information about the pioneer mission)

I agree this is the best approach, treat the ships weapons as 1:1 copies of existing systems for game mechanic purposes. Working out the hull strength (MDC by lcoation) is more problematic IMHO as it would be more arbitrary.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:51 am
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
They did a 3D computer graphic and that need up in the Artbook. Which is why I could give some mostly accurate numbers of weapon's turrets.

Nope... that's labeled as key art, meaning it's a 2D drawing that was created as design reference material for the artists working on the comic.

...snip

Then you like the mix up in ep 1 (maybe ep 2) where the hull number is plainly shown on the 'Armor' ship. But because the ship is coming towards the 'camera' the number is inverted. So what is really Armor 01, is called armor 10 in the English dialog.

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