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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:27 am
  

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Do they wear armor inside the pod? If so, would it be stupid to think that the pilots could eject and then engage in standard dismounted infantry combat?

Also, just skimming over the books, it really becomes apparent just how fast the Zentraedi are and how necessary the Veritechs are. The VF's were the only thing that could match the speed of the Zentraedi and then fight them on the ground. The combat power of a Zentraedi battalion (?) of 144 battlepods, 14 light artillery battlepods, 7 heavy artillery battlepods, one tactical recon pod and one officer's battlepod is pretty insane. The ability to engage targets at 100+ mph to a range of 100 miles vs aircraft and ground targets at 25 miles is pretty crazy. Any ground targets they could not kill, they could avoid...

Destroids could target ground targets only to 15 miles, and had no EW capability.

I realize that the game is primarily based on squad based combat, and the anime has the Zentraedi being severely hamstrung with the whole "don't destroy Zor's ship" thing...but against most enemy forces the Zentraedi would handily destroy them very quickly. With the new guerrilla warfare MOS, the tactical options really open up. Even a single destroyer with it's 1000 battlepods would absolutely devastate the Invid in ground conflict.

I suppose that the Invid focus on close quarter/melee conflict, lack of advanced EW systems to attack, disregard of casualties, and a rigid/biological hierarchy pretty much played into all the factors that the Zentraedi were weak in (as in, the majority of the Zentraedi enemies prior to the Invid were able to be attacked at range, with EW, with excessive casualties and by attacking the HQ units). The inability of those tactics to work against the Invid were able to compensate for their pretty lackluster combat abilities.

I wonder what the K/D ratios for the various forces were during the various wars....I suspect that the Invid were pretty low, since they didn't really seem to practice combined arms warfare, but I suppose that doesn't matter when your enemies guns run out of ammo and their barrels melt and they can't sleep for weeks of relentless onslaught. It makes the Invid far more terrifying to seem them as a nigh infinite, implacable force. They are even better than some other enemies because you can't reason with them, and all they want is your death...not even to eat you, just to kill you.

-STS

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:10 pm
  

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slade the sniper wrote:
Do they wear armor inside the pod? If so, would it be stupid to think that the pilots could eject and then engage in standard dismounted infantry combat?

Yes the pod's pilot wears body armor while operating. There are numerous examples one could point to in the animation:
-Ep2 has a pilot emerging from his Regult
-Grell/Geraro is shown/implied in Body Armor piloting a Regult several times
-Khyron is shown in body armor piloting a Glaug numerous times (and the Male Power Armor)
-the pilot of Exedore's Recon Regult emerges in full body armor on his diplomatic mission
-various full-size operators of Regults in the failed Deadelus Attack
-Cyclops Recon pilots wear armor ("Miss Macross") given the Zentreadi spies

IIRC the only Zentreadi mecha pilots NOT shown in body armor would be the female pilots pre-FoA (post FoA does have males w/o armor emerging from Regults but this period is hardly normal). I am not sure if a Gnerl Fighter Pod pilot is ever shown.

As far as ejecting (ala ejection seat/system) I don't think they could (it isn't shown or mentioned in the RPG), they could certainly get out of the pod via normal means if the pod became to badly damaged (Ep2 example, post-FOA example on New Portland).


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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:06 pm
  

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slade the sniper wrote:
Do they wear armor inside the pod?

Yes, as seen on many occasions in the animation and in the line art. You can see the helmet and shoes from the standard Zentradi body armor in this line art from Macross: Perfect Memory:
http://www.macross2.net/m3/sdfmacross/r ... ockpit.gif

The same is true for the battle suits and other mecha, since the standard Zentradi body armor doubles as a spacesuit. The Queadluun-Rau pilot suits do not have visible hard-armor segments due to operational requirements of the mecha, but may otherwise be just as tough as the standard Zentradi gear. (The upgraded versions seen in later Macross stories show Zentradi pilots operating them in standard body armor.)


slade the sniper wrote:
If so, would it be stupid to think that the pilots could eject and then engage in standard dismounted infantry combat?

Well, not for that reason... they can't eject because there is no ejection seat. The only way for the pilot to disembark is to manually open the hatch at the rear of the mecha and climb out, which was neither easy nor comfortable to do and was very difficult to do quickly. (The only instance I can think of of disembarking while under fire was in Macross: Do You Remember Love?, in which some nameless Zentradi grunt tried to pry open the front of his badly damaged Regult to attack Max's VF-1A Super Valkyrie... and got several new 55mm holes in his head for his trouble.


slade the sniper wrote:
Also, just skimming over the books, it really becomes apparent just how fast the Zentraedi are and how necessary the Veritechs are. The VF's were the only thing that could match the speed of the Zentraedi and then fight them on the ground. The combat power of a Zentraedi battalion (?) of 144 battlepods, 14 light artillery battlepods, 7 heavy artillery battlepods, one tactical recon pod and one officer's battlepod is pretty insane. The ability to engage targets at 100+ mph to a range of 100 miles vs aircraft and ground targets at 25 miles is pretty crazy. Any ground targets they could not kill, they could avoid...

The RPG's stats are, in this regard, largely arbitrary and/or wildly inaccurate.

The Tomahawk, for instance, was capable of engaging with its weapons while running at over 110mph... but prevailing tactics generally didn't call for it to do so because it spent most of the war in the role of an ad hoc anti-aircraft unit.


slade the sniper wrote:
Destroids could target ground targets only to 15 miles, and had no EW capability.

Correctly statted, the Monster's good out to over 180 miles... but most Destroids were made for short-range anti-aircraft defense or infantry-style land warfare, so it's not surprising their engagement ranges weren't especially long. The OSM Phalanx had electronic attack capabilities using its radar as a gamma wave irradiation weapon.


slade the sniper wrote:
I realize that the game is primarily based on squad based combat, and the anime has the Zentraedi being severely hamstrung with the whole "don't destroy Zor's ship" thing...but against most enemy forces the Zentraedi would handily destroy them very quickly. With the new guerrilla warfare MOS, the tactical options really open up. Even a single destroyer with it's 1000 battlepods would absolutely devastate the Invid in ground conflict.

Yup... this is carryover from the OSM, where the only thing keeping the Macross from being destroyed was the fact that the Zentradi were so curious about it and the possibility that its crew were survivors of the Zentradi's long-vanished creators. Without the kid gloves, the Zentradi will wreck pretty much anything through sheer numbers.


slade the sniper wrote:
I wonder what the K/D ratios for the various forces were during the various wars...

From the OSM, the VF-1 Valkyrie averaged about 12:1 against the Zentradi during the First Space War. That improved down the line when updates were made to the VF-1 to improve its active stealth system, engines, and other systems to counter Zentradi ECM, ECCM, and so on.

The OSM also paints a very unflattering picture of the Southern Cross Army in general, though the Logan gets singled out in particular by its creators and called no more effective than a mosquito against Bioroids (Marie's apparently being an exception by dint of main character status).


slade the sniper wrote:
It makes the Invid far more terrifying to seem them as a nigh infinite, implacable force.

The Invid get a lot less terrifying when it becomes evident how fragile they are, and how big of an idiot ball you'd have to hold to actually lose a war to a foe with no ranged weaponry and armor so weak even man-portable rockets and light anti-materiel weapons are instantly lethal.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:29 pm
  

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female power armor pilots do not wear the plate armor looking suits that we see the other mecha pilots employ, but they do have flightsuits with sealed helmets, suggesting enviromental armor of some sort. likely a similar style of "low profile" armor comparable in concept to the light armor protection built into the flightsuit of VF pilots. not tough enough to double as infantry armor (as with the battlepod pilots) but enough to protect the pilot some if their mecha is crippled.

and agreed that the pods do not appear to have anything like an ejection system.. in fact most of them don't even appear to have a separate pilot seat, instead the seats are built into the pod itself. which given how little the pods have inside aside from the pilot's seat and controls, is more or less inevitable. as mentioned though the standard pods are fairly easy to get out of. though the fact that the front hatch doubles as your glacis armor means that ease of entry and exit is probably part of why the pods are so easy to kill. the officers pod is a little bit tougher but not by that much. the power armors appear to be more involved in entry and exit but they are also a lot tougher and harder to hit.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:49 am
  

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Thanks for all the info. I would really love a good tactical/operational Robotech wargame (with all the factions included). Each faction would probably have a very different play style, even more so than some other sci-fantasy IPs.

-STS

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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:51 am
  

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I really like the 2e Zentraedi. Between the skills and variations on the Battle Pods makes them just a brutal enemy. With all the information in the books I just don't see how the Invid could actual beat them.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
slade the sniper wrote:
It makes the Invid far more terrifying to seem them as a nigh infinite, implacable force.

The Invid get a lot less terrifying when it becomes evident how fragile they are, and how big of an idiot ball you'd have to hold to actually lose a war to a foe with no ranged weaponry and armor so weak even man-portable rockets and light anti-materiel weapons are instantly lethal.

I think the Invid are pretty formidable on a planet when they outnumber you 5 or 10 to 1. But in space they are just meat. In Invid Invasion they can be brutally tough especially with protoculture detection but I don't see how they can fight an army like the Zentraedi.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:16 am
  

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the same way that a hurricane can't be killed by a nuclear bomb. the zentreadi fleet is designed to fight enemy fleets and bombard planets. they have limited point defense that works against mecha. (both in the canon and in the rpg). and their big anti-ship guns will have trouble targeting small mecha and unable to kill more than a few a time using extreme overkill.

the invid are nothing but mecha in combat. their clamships are pure transports and as seen in the show, just stay well outside of range whle digorging massive swarms of mecha. the big guns of the zentreadi ships will be unable to inflict enough damage to the swarm to have any real effect, and zentreadi mecha aren't in a much better position, given that invid mecha are much much smaller, and often faster and more agile. the invid would be able to take down zent warships using many of the same tactics that they used against the UEEF over earth. though the larger size of the zent fleets would require a lot more mecha than the earth reclimation fleets did.

that said, there is nothing in canon to suggest that the zentreadi ever actually fought the invid. and in the sentinels OVA the invid regent waited until the grand fleet was destroyed and the masters had taken their own fleet and army outside the empire before they attacked.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:22 pm
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
the invid are nothing but mecha in combat. their clamships are pure transports and as seen in the show, just stay well outside of range whle digorging massive swarms of mecha. the big guns of the zentreadi ships will be unable to inflict enough damage to the swarm to have any real effect, and zentreadi mecha aren't in a much better position, given that invid mecha are much much smaller, and often faster and more agile. the invid would be able to take down zent warships using many of the same tactics that they used against the UEEF over earth. though the larger size of the zent fleets would require a lot more mecha than the earth reclimation fleets did.

The Zentreadi can target those clamships. They launched an attack on ships in low Earth Orbit in Ep3 From Lunar Orbit (IIRC in Ep2 the bombard Macross Island from the same), that ability was nerfed in the 2E RPG (but still have guns reaching out >10,000 miles). I don't think the UEEF ships used in 21st MD in 2E have anything like this in terms of range (AFAIK only the SDF-4 has guns in Zentreadi level range, ignoring Syncros), so the Invid would have a harder time. They'd almost have to wait and deploy Booster Scouts (and this assumes the Zentreadi don't do any softening up attacks making deployment of those assets harder).


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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:02 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote:
slade the sniper wrote:
It makes the Invid far more terrifying to seem them as a nigh infinite, implacable force.

The Invid get a lot less terrifying when it becomes evident how fragile they are, and how big of an idiot ball you'd have to hold to actually lose a war to a foe with no ranged weaponry and armor so weak even man-portable rockets and light anti-materiel weapons are instantly lethal.

I think the Invid are pretty formidable on a planet when they outnumber you 5 or 10 to 1. But in space they are just meat. In Invid Invasion they can be brutally tough especially with protoculture detection but I don't see how they can fight an army like the Zentraedi.

That's just it... the Invid simply aren't capable of posing a significant threat unless you're stupid or suicidal enough to voluntarily opt to fight them on their terms.

The Earth Recapture Forces in the original Genesis Climber MOSPEADA didn't really have a choice but to fight the Inbit in ways that played to the Inbit's strengths because the technology available to Mars and the outer solar system colonies in 2083 simply wasn't advanced enough to allow any other kind of space war besides a landing operation. They'd only barely mastered interplanetary travel and laser weaponry, and their most advanced new weapon was a weaponized version of modern synchrotron particle accelerator technology. This becomes a bit of an adaptation-induced plot hole if we consider the Robotech setting, where humanity has access to things like beam weapons capable of precision bombardment at ranges exceeding a light second and it somehow never occurs to any strategist in the military's employ to install one or more batteries of those guns on the moon and use them to bombard Invid ships and surface targets with impunity. If even one person in the UEEF or UEDF thought about the problem objectively, the 3rd Robotech War would've been a hilarious turkey shoot against embarrassingly unprepared space crabs.

At double the listed maximum speed, an Invid carrier is capable of 3.594km/s. If they're even capable of doing more than shuttling ground forces up to low Earth orbit and can sustain that speed for an indefinite period, the artillery crews and ships operating on the moon will have over 29 1/2 hours to fire on the incoming enemy force before they're in any danger of being attacked themselves.

Of course, the strategic shortcomings don't stop there... the UEEF's next-generation fighter is about the worst conceivable design for fighting an enemy that relies on close-range combat and numerical advantages. You don't fight a Zerg rush by rushing the rush with a smaller number of troops, you maliciously abuse Area of Effect weapons to thin the herd to a manageable size. This doesn't seem to the UEEF at any point despite many of its officers being UEDF veterans who used exactly those tactics against the Zentradi to great effect. The Alpha is built exclusively for combat at visual range, with no medium- or long-range weapons or weapon options to speak of. The only worse choice for fighting a foe like the Invid would be the Logan, which barely has munitions at all. This is how you deal with an enemy that uses swarm tactics... you use long-range area of effect weaponry to take their formation to pieces before they ever get to you and mop up the survivors on an even-or-better footing. The adoption of "synchro cannons" is similarly bizarre, since they don't seem to offer any advantage over reflex cannons except rate-of-fire, which seems to not be much of an advantage at all given how much weaker they are... being incapable of damaging enemy ships with near-misses the way reflex cannons can, which would have been a huge asset for fighting Invid formations as well.

The TL;DR here is that the Invid are only a threat if your military's a kakistocracy instead of a meritocracy.

The Robotech (and Macross II) RPGs always shortsell the human ships for no clear reason even when it defies the source material, but the Zentradi got hit with the NERF bat too in RT2E... otherwise this strategy of a moon-based battery of ship gun turrets would be totally viable even in-game. (Then again, ship "main gun" systems didn't get this NERF, so they're totally viable for this purpose still.)

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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:57 am
  

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Seto wrote:
The Earth Recapture Forces in the original Genesis Climber MOSPEADA didn't really have a choice but to fight the Inbit in ways that played to the Inbit's strengths because the technology available to Mars and the outer solar system colonies in 2083 simply wasn't advanced enough to allow any other kind of space war besides a landing operation

The Earth Recapture Forces might not need Zentreadi-level beam weapons. Theoretically speaking they did have the necessary tools, they just did not apply them:
-Massive missile volleys, launched from ships. There is some evidence that massive missile volleys of this nature work (if expensive) from the Legoiss, just think about what they could have do with reloads and banks of launchers built into those pods used by the Horizon and Garfish (if each can comfortably fit a Legoiss you could easily fit in each one facing forward a 7.85x4.5 grid, given clearance call it 8x5 for 40 upper arm stations for ~320 missiles and run on the enemy facing sides each would be at least 12.8x4.5grid of the same, throw in reloads and take advantage of additional room....)
-as missile volleys, but replace with multiple beam cannons (ex. Legoiss/TLead main guns) for area denial, they'd have the advantage of likely more shots than via reloads of missiles
-they could (potentially) redirect suitable sized asteroids or comets to act as a bombardment mechanism instead of beam weapons
=if they have Rail Gun technology, they could also produce mass drivers to be used as weapons (is the Legoiss 2nd Gunpod in the combo image with the wing hardpoints identified? I know I've seen it portrayed as a Gauss Cannon at robotech research fansite)
-build and launch "rods from god" from the Moon.
-at a Earth-Sun Lagrange point construct a giant solar shield(s) to block sunlight from reaching Earth (granted Inbit biology it probably do more harm to natives than the aliens)
-construct basically a giant magnifying glass to "burn the ants" (Germans looked at in WWII, a 9km^2 facility at 8,200km altitude. A size that should be doable for them given space station we see in still shots)

Seto wrote:
This becomes a bit of an adaptation-induced plot hole if we consider the Robotech setting, where humanity has access to things like beam weapons capable of precision bombardment at ranges exceeding a light second and it somehow never occurs to any strategist in the military's employ to install one or more batteries of those guns on the moon and use them to bombard Invid ships and surface targets with impunity.

One which might be explainable:
-Invid Force Fields (we know they have them, though this requires defining how they interact), so then what do you target the FoL fields, human popluation centers, the oceans, etc
-Weapons of this caliber eat up too much Protoculture for the UEEF to sanction their use (which by 2044 has 1year supply left per TSC).
-Invid "Jamming" Technology reduces the effectiveness (we know the Invid can jam communications either intentionally or unintentionally, setting precedent for them to have other jamming capabilities)
-located on the lunar surface gets into Grand Cannon limited firing arcs, (if the Invid could travel to the Moon they could go with a longer trajectory to bring them in at an angle the guns wouldn't be able to track assuming you don't setup for global coverage)
-If this was employed how long before the Invid start imitating those weapon systems (we know the Invid like to imitate other forms and apparently technology given the Invid Overlord Veritech) and counter attacking (with their PC supplies AND ability to setup shop anywhere on Earth they could have a ring going all the way around allowing them to attack the Moon sites 24/7)
-Invid could adopt "mobile" Hive designs that move with the rotation of the Earth (always staying out of the line of fire as they move) giving the Moon base nothing to shoot at
-UEEF sensors aren't up to the task of providing required targeting data (they had to use Shadow Fighters for recon patrol in TSC, suggesting sensors might not be up to the task), though why the UEEF wasn't able to salvage such tech from the Zentreadi to go with their Zentreadi beam weapons is an issue (almost like the UEEF is trying to purge itself of alien influences as much as possible).

Seto wrote:
The adoption of "synchro cannons" is similarly bizarre, since they don't seem to offer any advantage over reflex cannons except rate-of-fire, which seems to not be much of an advantage at all given how much weaker they are...

At Point-K Lancer suggests the team/group might be able to recover reflex weapons (generic term, nothing specific like Beam, Cannon, Missile, Warhead, etc), so limiting it to strictly the SDF-1 type of Main Gun implied:
-R-Cs might have a minimum practical size much larger than S-Cs as depicted in the animation
-Syncro-cannons are also potentially easier to produce (no twin boom).
-Power Consumption (nothing to base this on, but if they can be powered from a Gunpod power sources for multiple shots and the R-Cs can't).
-Precesion strikes, the S-C doesn't have the "wash" like a R-C is shown to have which would allow it to be used much closer to friendly troops (ex. you could fire S-Cs through your fleet formation's gaps, not so much with a R-C), granted you probably still don't want to be near the impact site of such an attack
-Force Field Disruption (if S-Cs can turn an Invid Force Field into swiss cheese, but R-Cs well we don't have an example of R-C on Force Fields do we in RT IINM suggesting a R-C isn't as effective against them)


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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:27 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
The Earth Recapture Forces might not need Zentreadi-level beam weapons. Theoretically speaking they did have the necessary tools, they just did not apply them:
-Massive missile volleys, launched from ships. There is some evidence that massive missile volleys of this nature work (if expensive) from the Legoiss, just think about what they could have do with reloads and banks of launchers built into those pods used by the Horizon and Garfish (if each can comfortably fit a Legoiss you could easily fit in each one facing forward a 7.85x4.5 grid, given clearance call it 8x5 for 40 upper arm stations for ~320 missiles and run on the enemy facing sides each would be at least 12.8x4.5grid of the same, throw in reloads and take advantage of additional room....)

The most obvious problem with this idea is that available technology in the setting doesn't really provide a way to lock onto such a vast number of small targets. Inbit mecha don't produce waste heat as such, being powered remotely by bioenergy beamed to them from their hives (which is why they can't operate away from LEO) so infrared seekers won't cut it and no available radar or laser system would be able to cope with so many simultaneous launches. Inbit ships won't come up from the surface until an enemy's in striking range, so even using larger, longer-range ordnance to strike at their Sheldo carriers isn't much of an option unless you're already carrying out an orbit-to-surface strike.


ShadowLogan wrote:
-as missile volleys, but replace with multiple beam cannons (ex. Legoiss/TLead main guns) for area denial, they'd have the advantage of likely more shots than via reloads of missiles

The Earth Recapture mission flotillas were humanity's state of the art c.2083 and they're little better than the ships of Gundam's Universal Century technologically. Prior to the introduction of the synchrotron cannon, their directed energy weapons were short-ranged laser and particle beam weapons barely more effective than the hard rounds they replaced. Most ships wouldn't have the power available to run a slew of extra beam cannons and doing something like racking up a bunch of gunpods means you've got a very limited range of at most a few kilometers which puts you at the Inbit's nonexistent mercy.


ShadowLogan wrote:
-they could (potentially) redirect suitable sized asteroids or comets to act as a bombardment mechanism instead of beam weapons

As popular as this idea is in science fiction, this is actually a ridiculously inefficient and time-consuming way to strike a surface target.

For your amusement, here is a wonderful in-universe explanation of why this is a bad idea from the Warhammer 40,000 universe via the old White Dwarf magazine.


ShadowLogan wrote:
=if they have Rail Gun technology, they could also produce mass drivers to be used as weapons (is the Legoiss 2nd Gunpod in the combo image with the wing hardpoints identified? I know I've seen it portrayed as a Gauss Cannon at robotech research fansite)

AFAIK, said weapon is never identified in any Genesis Climber MOSPEADA publication.

This is probably within the realm of possibility for them as a lunar installation, though it would probably exceed what a ship could support due to the immense power requirements and size.


ShadowLogan wrote:
-build and launch "rods from god" from the Moon.

This is probably well within what they could achieve, but they're imprecise as all get-out.


ShadowLogan wrote:
-at a Earth-Sun Lagrange point construct a giant solar shield(s) to block sunlight from reaching Earth (granted Inbit biology it probably do more harm to natives than the aliens)
-construct basically a giant magnifying glass to "burn the ants" (Germans looked at in WWII, a 9km^2 facility at 8,200km altitude. A size that should be doable for them given space station we see in still shots)

These are both well outside what human technology is capable of in MOSPEADA, with the outer solar system colonies being only barely self-sufficient thanks to the influx of refugees from Earth and/or their resource situations... unless they built an asteroid habitat and towed it to the construction location, which runs into the problems outlined in "Rocks are not free".


ShadowLogan wrote:
Seto wrote:
This becomes a bit of an adaptation-induced plot hole if we consider the Robotech setting, where humanity has access to things like beam weapons capable of precision bombardment at ranges exceeding a light second and it somehow never occurs to any strategist in the military's employ to install one or more batteries of those guns on the moon and use them to bombard Invid ships and surface targets with impunity.

One which might be explainable:
-Invid Force Fields (we know they have them, though this requires defining how they interact), so then what do you target the FoL fields, human popluation centers, the oceans, etc

They're unlikely to be THAT durable...and the really powerful energy shields in Robotech still have a limit to the punishment they can take before they fail (explosively) and they weren't depicted as common fixtures in the show. Alternatively, just raze the surrounding landscape and keep the Invid bottled up in their hives until they starve or surrender.


ShadowLogan wrote:
-Weapons of this caliber eat up too much Protoculture for the UEEF to sanction their use (which by 2044 has 1year supply left per TSC).

Didn't stop 'em from having a reflex cannon on the SDF-3 for two decades... or from using Zentradi ships to bombard around the three mounds to bury the wreck of the SDF-1.

They didn't have a fuel shortage until the SDF-3 disappeared (again), that one year of protoculture is their strategic reserve.


ShadowLogan wrote:
-Invid "Jamming" Technology reduces the effectiveness (we know the Invid can jam communications either intentionally or unintentionally, setting precedent for them to have other jamming capabilities)

Noise jamming a microwave radio is as low-tech as jamming gets... that sets a pretty poor precedent for the idea of them having other jamming technologies, and even if they do it's rather difficult if not technically impossible to jam a LIDAR array or a good old fashioned optical camera.


ShadowLogan wrote:
-located on the lunar surface gets into Grand Cannon limited firing arcs, (if the Invid could travel to the Moon they could go with a longer trajectory to bring them in at an angle the guns wouldn't be able to track assuming you don't setup for global coverage)

"If the Invid can travel to the moon" is a big if, given that they've essentially either ignored or been unable to strike at the UEEF's moon base despite it being used as a staging area for two prior major fleets that attacked Earth shortly after. The limited arc of fire is a fair point, but with the Invid hives mostly situated in latitudes favorable to agriculture and near or in major conurbations, this isn't all that much of an issue. (Potentially a non-issue if the Zentradi had access to beam turrets that were "bendy beam" capable the way they did in the OSM... set a ring of 'em around the moon and let 'em focus fire by bending beams to converge on a target.)


ShadowLogan wrote:
-If this was employed how long before the Invid start imitating those weapon systems (we know the Invid like to imitate other forms and apparently technology given the Invid Overlord Veritech) and counter attacking (with their PC supplies AND ability to setup shop anywhere on Earth they could have a ring going all the way around allowing them to attack the Moon sites 24/7)

Their ability or interest in imitating technology seems to be pretty limited in the series, and the UEEF would have eyes in the sky to spot construction sites for such weapons and thus have the drop on any such attempt at a counterattack.


ShadowLogan wrote:
-Invid could adopt "mobile" Hive designs that move with the rotation of the Earth (always staying out of the line of fire as they move) giving the Moon base nothing to shoot at
-UEEF sensors aren't up to the task of providing required targeting data (they had to use Shadow Fighters for recon patrol in TSC, suggesting sensors might not be up to the task), though why the UEEF wasn't able to salvage such tech from the Zentreadi to go with their Zentreadi beam weapons is an issue (almost like the UEEF is trying to purge itself of alien influences as much as possible).

The Invid never display anywhere near this level of technical proficiency... creating what amounts to a mobile city block (never mind a hive like Reflex Point being the size of several counties) is a huge engineering task that's probably flat impossible given the weight that'd impose on the terrain, and again the UEEF's sky eye view of Invid construction and the ability to focus fire on it means that they can forestall the problem by blowing it up before it's even finished. (If it flies, there's the additional potential for abuse in bombarding it until it crashes and sinks into the ocean.)


ShadowLogan wrote:
At Point-K Lancer suggests the team/group might be able to recover reflex weapons (generic term, nothing specific like Beam, Cannon, Missile, Warhead, etc), so limiting it to strictly the SDF-1 type of Main Gun implied:

Earlier usage in the show meant pretty much any protoculture-powered weapon... which makes this an odd case of redundancy, like saying "gunpowder firearms" or "Inspector Morse Detective".


ShadowLogan wrote:
-Syncro-cannons are also potentially easier to produce (no twin boom).

Whether the twin boom design is actually necessary is debatable, given some Robotech Masters weapons demonstrated in the series.


ShadowLogan wrote:
-Precesion strikes, the S-C doesn't have the "wash" like a R-C is shown to have which would allow it to be used much closer to friendly troops (ex. you could fire S-Cs through your fleet formation's gaps, not so much with a R-C), granted you probably still don't want to be near the impact site of such an attack

Granted, but you don't use a weapon like that close to your own troops... you use a gun like that to kill the everloving hell out of enemy targets at long range, as demonstrated in the series.


ShadowLogan wrote:
-Force Field Disruption (if S-Cs can turn an Invid Force Field into swiss cheese, but R-Cs well we don't have an example of R-C on Force Fields do we in RT IINM suggesting a R-C isn't as effective against them)

It's likely, given what we see of other barrier tech, that those force fields could be beaten down with raw firepower... or made to overload with potentially fatal consequences for the hive itself.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:45 pm
  

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Knight

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RE: GCM
The point is not the degree of practicality that I am considering merely weather they are technically capable of executing such an action. There may be reasons to go with one route over another.

RE: UEEF Zentreadi Beam Canons & Syncro-Cannons
Getting a nice neat tidy explanation is probably not going to be workable with what is available for an in-universe RT explanation. Though we have statements (AotSC pg141) about why Syncro-Cannons replaced Reflex Cannons (efficient, scalable, rate of fire basically).

Seto wrote:
If the Invid can travel to the moon" is a big if,

It actually is not a big IF (for RT, GCM it would be AFAIK). Check out RT.com's Infopedia (and repeated in AotSC pg139) and the Range of the Invid Carrier "Range: Sublight - Earth-Lunar transit capability." 2E PB RPG just limits it to "Sub-light" in space (1E PB RPG doesn't address it directly). So we know they CAN technologically speaking, meaning we are dealing with some level of mental aspect driving this outcome to ignore the Moon (weather that would remain the case if the Moon started bombarding them directly instead of use as a staging ground...)

EDIT: I trimmed the post down.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:26 pm
  

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Knight

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ShadowLogan wrote:
RE: GCM
The point is not the degree of practicality that I am considering merely weather they are technically capable of executing such an action. There may be reasons to go with one route over another.

WRT practicality vs. possibility, in Genesis Climber MOSPEADA the former may dictate the latter in many cases because Mars colony and the other colonies that had won their independence from Earth's government in the previous decades were somewhat short of resources due to the massive influx of refugees fleeing the Inbit invasion of Earth. Something the colonists could achieve if given infinite time and resources is only technically possible, and may not fit at all into the scope of what was actually possible for the colonial forces in their present resource-strapped, overpopulated state.



ShadowLogan wrote:
RE: UEEF Zentreadi Beam Canons & Syncro-Cannons
Getting a nice neat tidy explanation is probably not going to be workable with what is available for an in-universe RT explanation. Though we have statements (AotSC pg141) about why Syncro-Cannons replaced Reflex Cannons (efficient, scalable, rate of fire basically).

The problem with synchro cannons is that that efficiency, scalability, and increased rate of fire comes at a massive decrease in actual battlefield potential. It's like turning in your M72 LAW for a M1911 pistol in .45ACP. Yeah, you can carry more individual shots but you've sacrificed all stopping power for it. Unless you get fantastically lucky, that .45ACP round isn't going to stop much.

Even a direct hit with a state-of-the-art synchro cannon is no guarantee of scoring a kill, as witnessed by the Icarus's attack on the Tokugawa in Prelude. Reflex cannons can sink an enemy ship even with a near miss, and even the light warship turrets seem to have every bit as much stopping power as a synchro cannon given their ability to shoot clean through ships a light second away.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Seto wrote:
If the Invid can travel to the moon" is a big if,

It actually is not a big IF (for RT, GCM it would be AFAIK). Check out RT.com's Infopedia (and repeated in AotSC pg139) and the Range of the Invid Carrier "Range: Sublight - Earth-Lunar transit capability." 2E PB RPG just limits it to "Sub-light" in space (1E PB RPG doesn't address it directly). So we know they CAN technologically speaking, meaning we are dealing with some level of mental aspect driving this outcome to ignore the Moon (weather that would remain the case if the Moon started bombarding them directly instead of use as a staging ground...)

In theory, yes... but in practice?

Invid troops don't really think for themselves, so what's stopping them from launching an invasion of the moon and preventing further invasions by blowing up the base where those troops assemble to attack Earth? Is the Regess not actually capable of controlling her troops at that great a distance? Does the bio-energy power source beamed to them from the hives fail at that range?

Even then, the Invid have a finite number of ships and troops to throw at the moon... and the troops based there would, depending on how generous we are about the ship's stated speed, have over a day or possibly as much as two and a half days to target and sink incoming Invid ships before being in any danger of coming under attack. That's an awfully long time to target and pick off the Invid's transports.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:50 am
  

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Seto wrote:
Even a direct hit with a state-of-the-art synchro cannon is no guarantee of scoring a kill, as witnessed by the Icarus's attack on the Tokugawa in Prelude. Reflex cannons can sink an enemy ship even with a near miss, and even the light warship turrets seem to have every bit as much stopping power as a synchro cannon given their ability to shoot clean through ships a light second away.

I can point to two instances in Episode 36 where the BFG Reflex Cannon shots don't disintegrate their target (Z-Gunboat vs "SDF-2" and SDF-1 vs Z-Gunboat). So even Reflex Cannons are not 100% guarantee of scoring an instant kill, I don't dispute that the state of the respective cannons might have played a role in the outcome but it still shows they aren't any different in this regard.

It's probably worth considering 3things w/re to the scene in Prelude:
1. the Tok. was executing an evasive maneuver so it might only have taken a glancing blow
2. the scale of the Syncro-Cannon on the Shim. might not be up to the task of destroying a Tok. Could the Beta's S-C (or even the hover vehicle in Ep83) destroy a capital ship?
3. Edwards was "playing games" with them (initial scene in Hive with Edwards and Grant has that vibe IMHO)

Seto wrote:
Invid troops don't really think for themselves, so what's stopping them from launching an invasion of the moon and preventing further invasions by blowing up the base where those troops assemble to attack Earth? Is the Regess not actually capable of controlling her troops at that great a distance? Does the bio-energy power source beamed to them from the hives fail at that range?

Even then, the Invid have a finite number of ships and troops to throw at the moon... and the troops based there would, depending on how generous we are about the ship's stated speed, have over a day or possibly as much as two and a half days to target and sink incoming Invid ships before being in any danger of coming under attack. That's an awfully long time to target and pick off the Invid's transports.


That is based on the 2E RPG speed, officially HG doesn't have a speed listed (for any of the capital ships in the Infopedia) to work out a transit time. So on the one hand in the RPG-verse yes transit time could be a factor, but in RT-proper its a bit less defined.

We also have to consider how different are the Regis and Regents Invid factions (aside from leadership, use of Inorganics, and the Scorpion ship). The Regent was able to run a multiple world Invid Occupation with both live Invid and Inorganics AND had Space Fold Technology on at least one ship, so unless the Regis Invid are fundamentally different "range" doesn't seem like its going to be an issue (now if we toss out Sentinels....).

It is probably also worth considering that the Regis might employ the "Phoenix" travel method to go from Earth to Luna and hit ALUCE (and other potential lunar facilities) like the Invid are shown invading Earth with a contingent of Invid.

As Point-K shows, taking size statement at face value, the Invid could crush a base with 2000veritechs (non-cyclones presumably) and 6000 soldiers (IIRC there aren't any Invid among the wreakage at Point K). They also crushed 21st MD (w/losses we know occurred), which is approaching Point-K strength levels IINM going off Animation counts and official RT troop size. We don't kon how ALUCE compares in troop size, but for it to be "safe" it would have to be bigger than the size of Point-K (give the layout change from TRM to TSC, ALUCE's vulnerability to attack likely also changed over time).

These aspects lead me to think that the Regis not attacking the Moon is more of her thinking process when it comes to tactics/strategy rather than any technical limitation. To use a historical analogy, McAruther in the Korean War wanted to bomb China (technically possible), but was prevented by higher ups (thinking process was to keep the conflict limited and contained).


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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:24 pm
  

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Knight

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ShadowLogan wrote:
I can point to two instances in Episode 36 where the BFG Reflex Cannon shots don't disintegrate their target (Z-Gunboat vs "SDF-2" and SDF-1 vs Z-Gunboat). So even Reflex Cannons are not 100% guarantee of scoring an instant kill, I don't dispute that the state of the respective cannons might have played a role in the outcome but it still shows they aren't any different in this regard.

Granted, reflex cannons work about as well as synchro cannons when they're running underpowered, are in dire need of repair, and have been dropped from orbit a few times... but that isn't exactly a representative sample of a reflex cannon's regular performance.


ShadowLogan wrote:
It's probably worth considering 3things w/re to the scene in Prelude:
1. the Tok. was executing an evasive maneuver so it might only have taken a glancing blow
2. the scale of the Syncro-Cannon on the Shim. might not be up to the task of destroying a Tok. Could the Beta's S-C (or even the hover vehicle in Ep83) destroy a capital ship?
3. Edwards was "playing games" with them (initial scene in Hive with Edwards and Grant has that vibe IMHO)

1. The Tokugawa may have been taking evasive action, but she still sustained a centerline hit that completely cored her drive section... somehow WITHOUT causing the reflex furnace to blow up as reflex furnaces are wont to do at the slightest provocation. When your one-shot ship-killing weapon firing at full power is unequal to the task of sinking an enemy ship despite a direct hit to a part of the ship that's Made Of Explodium, it's time to go get a different one-shot kill weapon because you've been gypped.
2. From RTSC, it doesn't appear to be significantly less powerful than the synchro cannon on the SDF-4... neither of which is capable of inflicting any noticeable damage on enemy ships (or hitting them, to be honest).
3. Given that the Icarus attacked the canonically useless-in-a-fight Tokugawa with a weapon intended (on paper) to one-shot ships, he seems to have been having an honest try at killing all the Tokugawa's crew and fell back on "join me after I wax poetic about my evil plan" after the attack unexpectedly resulted in survivors stranded on Optera.



ShadowLogan wrote:
That is based on the 2E RPG speed, officially HG doesn't have a speed listed (for any of the capital ships in the Infopedia) to work out a transit time.

It's all we've got... and Earth-Lunar transit capability just means the physical ability to make the trip without regard to time. It could do it in a day, a week, a month... as long as it's capable of it on paper.



ShadowLogan wrote:
We also have to consider how different are the Regis and Regents Invid factions (aside from leadership, use of Inorganics, and the Scorpion ship). The Regent was able to run a multiple world Invid Occupation with both live Invid and Inorganics AND had Space Fold Technology on at least one ship, so unless the Regis Invid are fundamentally different "range" doesn't seem like its going to be an issue (now if we toss out Sentinels....).

The Regent, at least in the old comics, had a space fleet the Regess didn't have... whether that still exists in the post-reboot canon is anyone's guess.



ShadowLogan wrote:
It is probably also worth considering that the Regis might employ the "Phoenix" travel method to go from Earth to Luna and hit ALUCE (and other potential lunar facilities) like the Invid are shown invading Earth with a contingent of Invid.

But the UEEF can't base strategic decisions on out-of-context knowledge... they didn't know she could even DO that until she legged it at the end of the war, and based on the narration it seems to take rather a lot of power so it's not something she can do casually either.



ShadowLogan wrote:
As Point-K shows, taking size statement at face value, the Invid could crush a base with 2000veritechs (non-cyclones presumably) and 6000 soldiers (IIRC there aren't any Invid among the wreakage at Point K). They also crushed 21st MD (w/losses we know occurred), which is approaching Point-K strength levels IINM going off Animation counts and official RT troop size. We don't kon how ALUCE compares in troop size, but for it to be "safe" it would have to be bigger than the size of Point-K (give the layout change from TRM to TSC, ALUCE's vulnerability to attack likely also changed over time).

The Invid were able to crush those forces because those forces fought the Invid on the Invid's own terms... at ultra-short (visual) ranges, in environments where maneuverability was extremely limited, allowing the Invid to leverage their one and only advantage: numerical superiority. Those forces didn't have artillery support, or any kind of long-range defensive or offensive capability.



ShadowLogan wrote:
These aspects lead me to think that the Regis not attacking the Moon is more of her thinking process when it comes to tactics/strategy rather than any technical limitation. To use a historical analogy, McAruther in the Korean War wanted to bomb China (technically possible), but was prevented by higher ups (thinking process was to keep the conflict limited and contained).

Given that her troops spastically attack any non-authorized protoculture user, it makes no sense that she'd ignore a massive enemy force on her doorstep when she's content to send endless troops to round up a double handful of jackasses with laser rifles.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:00 pm
  

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Seto wrote:
1. The Tokugawa may have been taking evasive action, but she still sustained a centerline hit that completely cored her drive section... somehow WITHOUT causing the reflex furnace to blow up as reflex furnaces are wont to do at the slightest provocation. When your one-shot ship-killing weapon firing at full power is unequal to the task of sinking an enemy ship despite a direct hit to a part of the ship that's Made Of Explodium, it's time to go get a different one-shot kill weapon because you've been gypped.
2. From RTSC, it doesn't appear to be significantly less powerful than the synchro cannon on the SDF-4... neither of which is capable of inflicting any noticeable damage on enemy ships (or hitting them, to be honest).
3. Given that the Icarus attacked the canonically useless-in-a-fight Tokugawa with a weapon intended (on paper) to one-shot ships, he seems to have been having an honest try at killing all the Tokugawa's crew and fell back on "join me after I wax poetic about my evil plan" after the attack unexpectedly resulted in survivors stranded on Optera.


1. It wasn't a centerline hit. The depicted impact in Prelude shows it striking off center (left, in some respects a carbon copy of Carptenter's ship taking a hit in TRM), later shots of the ship during re-entry show it missing practically 1/3 of the ship. The Tok. could have some safety feature to prevent the RF from exploding (or such that it channels the blast).
3. I disagree, yes there is the scene in the Hive with meeting survivors, but Edwards wasn't in any hurry to finish off the ship later after one-shoting the Invid Flagship with the Regent on it. That would add weight to the idea he is "playing games". Sure he could be trying to make the best of the situation, but even Edwards would realize that while the Tok. itself isn't much of a danger the ~1000 mecha (presumably non-cyclone) it carries could be if they are allowed to deploy. Capturing the ship (even putting it in an out-of commission state) could provide him with supplies (parts and ammo for shadow fighters) and possibly an influx of new personnel, the information in the ships computer banks would likely also be valuable.

Seto wrote:
It's all we've got... and Earth-Lunar transit capability just means the physical ability to make the trip without regard to time. It could do it in a day, a week, a month... as long as it's capable of it on paper.

I agree, but at the same time E-L transit times for other NG-era ships IIRC aren't exactly short either as the animation suggests they should be (then again if converting Palladium Space Speed to realistic numbers by turning Space Mach into Miles Per Second...)

Seto wrote:
The Regent, at least in the old comics, had a space fleet the Regess didn't have... whether that still exists in the post-reboot canon is anyone's guess.

The Calmship makes up part of the Regent's Space Fleet. Sentinels even grants the Regis her own "Flagship" to travel around in. How that applies to current canon is anyone's guess as you said, but if the Regent has Fold Capable ships then it is possible the Regis does to (they both share Invid Scout/Trooper/Solider mecha designs to, plus the Calmship and "Brain") though we know the Regent uses designs (Inorganics, Red Enforcer, Scorpion ship) the Regis doesn't for some reason it could be she doesn't have the technology, but its also possible she doesn't use them for other reasons or we just aren't shown them in use.

Seto wrote:
But the UEEF can't base strategic decisions on out-of-context knowledge... they didn't know she could even DO that until she legged it at the end of the war, and based on the narration it seems to take rather a lot of power so it's not something she can do casually either.


I agree it can take a lot of power, but the power aspect could deal with traveling to the world in question she mentions. As for not knowing about it the UEEF was present for the invasion in 2031 (as seen in L&W comic and LLA OVA with their hardware present), even if we just go with ASC using UEEF hardware they could have gotten information on the invasion from ALUCE (or other Lunar observation posts) or other evacuees or even SSL itself. To say the UEEF wouldn't have know about how the Invid Regis attacked Earth seems unlikely, but we know the Invid Invasion of Earth in 2031 prompted the UEEF to move SSL (AotSC pg42) from where ever it was in TRM-era (somewhere in the Solar System) to deep space. Even if they don't connect the Phoenix to the Regis proper, they know the Invid at Earth have this capability of travel.

Seto wrote:
it makes no sense that she'd ignore a massive enemy force on her doorstep

That is human though process though, the Regis is technically an alien so her thought process may differ. ~250,000miles might not qualify as "on her doorstep" from her POV. The size of the ALUCE garrison might also not qualify as "massive" either since we don't know the composition of said troops (for all we know ALUCE could have been shut down or given just a skeleton caretaker staff and only recently reactivated given SSL was moved). Now if we are considering her response to have beam weapon attacks coming from the Moon I'm sure her approach will change.

We don't really know how large the forces at ALUCE are before 2044 and the influx of Shadow equipped forces, it isn't like 21st or 10th MD staged from the Moon, they arrived from Deep Space via Fold. AotSC also states that ALUCE is out of her line of sight being on the farside of the Moon (prior to the Soviet Luna 3 mission in 1959, human knowledge was a big blank) near the terminator line (depending on specifics, while the Moon is tidally locked keeping one side facing Earth permanently, libration allows 59% to be visible).


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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:30 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
3. I disagree, yes there is the scene in the Hive with meeting survivors, but Edwards wasn't in any hurry to finish off the ship later after one-shoting the Invid Flagship with the Regent on it. That would add weight to the idea he is "playing games". Sure he could be trying to make the best of the situation, but even Edwards would realize that while the Tok. itself isn't much of a danger the ~1000 mecha (presumably non-cyclone) it carries could be if they are allowed to deploy. Capturing the ship (even putting it in an out-of commission state) could provide him with supplies (parts and ammo for shadow fighters) and possibly an influx of new personnel, the information in the ships computer banks would likely also be valuable.


For all we know, Edwards was not the most stable of characters. So while there is the distinct possibility that he was "playing games", and surfing on his bruised ego trip about Minmei, Fokker / Hunter & all; there exist also a possibility that he was sufficiently crazed, by his contact with the Tirol Invid Brain, so as to not be totally conscious of the consequences of his actions. More angrily reacting to the situation than planning in any way, if you wish.
Now, while it is true that "Prelude to Shadow Chronicle" doesn't necessarily canonize "The sentinels" either in comics or novel form... Its ending is sufficiently close to tell that the Edwards shown was still profoundly affected in his ability to lead with any competence.
Despite his pro-humanity reasoning... the only thing probably keeping his Ghost Squadron by his side at this point.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:59 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
1. It wasn't a centerline hit. The depicted impact in Prelude shows it striking off center (left, in some respects a carbon copy of Carptenter's ship taking a hit in TRM), later shots of the ship during re-entry show it missing practically 1/3 of the ship.

It didn't go directly down the centerline of the entire ship, but it definitely hit center mass of the drive section... a section of the ship established repeatedly to be as prone to exploding as a box of party snaps.


ShadowLogan wrote:
The Tok. could have some safety feature to prevent the RF from exploding (or such that it channels the blast).

The omission of such a protective measure on every ship made before and since would be a pretty profound argument that that ain't it...


ShadowLogan wrote:
3. I disagree, yes there is the scene in the Hive with meeting survivors, but Edwards wasn't in any hurry to finish off the ship later after one-shoting the Invid Flagship with the Regent on it. That would add weight to the idea he is "playing games". Sure he could be trying to make the best of the situation, but even Edwards would realize that while the Tok. itself isn't much of a danger the ~1000 mecha (presumably non-cyclone) it carries could be if they are allowed to deploy. Capturing the ship (even putting it in an out-of commission state) could provide him with supplies (parts and ammo for shadow fighters) and possibly an influx of new personnel, the information in the ships computer banks would likely also be valuable.

This doesn't logically follow... for much the same reason as before, you're assuming the characters possess out of context knowledge like we do.

Edwards had literally no reason to expect that the ship would be carrying anything usable to him, since he believed that he and Dr. Zand had destroyed his research on shadow technology and all of the specs for things like the shadow fighters. Likewise, he would have had no expectation that its crew would willingly join his cause (and he acknowledges as much in his villain speech in the comic). The idea that they have usable intelligence is pretty silly too, since he'd only been gone a year and there was no reason to suspect the UEEF would make any significant strides in their war with the Invid as he believed he'd wiped out the trump card that was his shadow technology research.


ShadowLogan wrote:
I agree, but at the same time E-L transit times for other NG-era ships IIRC aren't exactly short either as the animation suggests they should be (then again if converting Palladium Space Speed to realistic numbers by turning Space Mach into Miles Per Second...)

To be entirely fair, the only time Earth-Lunar transit times are depicted as short is in Shadow Chronicles... where the moon is improperly animated as if it were only a few thousand kilometers from Earth instead of over a light second away.


ShadowLogan wrote:
The Calmship makes up part of the Regent's Space Fleet. Sentinels even grants the Regis her own "Flagship" to travel around in. How that applies to current canon is anyone's guess as you said, but if the Regent has Fold Capable ships then it is possible the Regis does to (they both share Invid Scout/Trooper/Solider mecha designs to, plus the Calmship and "Brain") though we know the Regent uses designs (Inorganics, Red Enforcer, Scorpion ship) the Regis doesn't for some reason it could be she doesn't have the technology, but its also possible she doesn't use them for other reasons or we just aren't shown them in use.

Whether the old explanation still holds, it was originally that she didn't possess that technology because her mindset was geared towards evolution rather than technological dominance.


ShadowLogan wrote:
As for not knowing about it the UEEF was present for the invasion in 2031 (as seen in L&W comic and LLA OVA with their hardware present), even if we just go with ASC using UEEF hardware they could have gotten information on the invasion from ALUCE (or other Lunar observation posts) or other evacuees or even SSL itself. To say the UEEF wouldn't have know about how the Invid Regis attacked Earth seems unlikely, but we know the Invid Invasion of Earth in 2031 prompted the UEEF to move SSL (AotSC pg42) from where ever it was in TRM-era (somewhere in the Solar System) to deep space. Even if they don't connect the Phoenix to the Regis proper, they know the Invid at Earth have this capability of travel.

There's a good deal of evidentiary distance between knowing that the Invid are capable of interstellar teleportation on such a massive scale and believing they can exercise such an ability casually. The UEEF's own experience with the immense energy requirements of interstellar travel would naturally predispose them to (correctly) suspect that the Regess lacked the energy to do that on demand.


ShadowLogan wrote:
That is human though process though, the Regis is technically an alien so her thought process may differ.

The Regess has enough familiarity with the very similar mindset and thought process of the Tirolians though, enough to anticipate their actions and discern strategic intent at a glance.


ShadowLogan wrote:
~250,000miles might not qualify as "on her doorstep" from her POV. The size of the ALUCE garrison might also not qualify as "massive" either since we don't know the composition of said troops (for all we know ALUCE could have been shut down or given just a skeleton caretaker staff and only recently reactivated given SSL was moved). Now if we are considering her response to have beam weapon attacks coming from the Moon I'm sure her approach will change.

She'd seen multiple major invasion forces launch from the moon, and if humans can spot fold reactions from light seconds away you can bet she can. Luna's pretty much right next door in space terms, so it'd be pretty silly for her to NOT consider that as "on her doorstep" given how often she's attacked from there.


ShadowLogan wrote:
We don't really know how large the forces at ALUCE are before 2044 and the influx of Shadow equipped forces, it isn't like 21st or 10th MD staged from the Moon, they arrived from Deep Space via Fold. AotSC also states that ALUCE is out of her line of sight being on the farside of the Moon (prior to the Soviet Luna 3 mission in 1959, human knowledge was a big blank) near the terminator line (depending on specifics, while the Moon is tidally locked keeping one side facing Earth permanently, libration allows 59% to be visible).

Even if we don't count the local forces, there have been multiple fleets transiting from there to Earth orbital space.





xunk16 wrote:
For all we know, Edwards was not the most stable of characters. So while there is the distinct possibility that he was "playing games", and surfing on his bruised ego trip about Minmei, Fokker / Hunter & all; there exist also a possibility that he was sufficiently crazed, by his contact with the Tirol Invid Brain, so as to not be totally conscious of the consequences of his actions. More angrily reacting to the situation than planning in any way, if you wish.

That's not really something we have to guess at... Edwards having a screw loose is something that was established almost from the very moment the character's backstory was rewritten to separate him from B.D. Andrews in their adaptation of Megazone 23. The man was so deranged with hatred that he would blatantly rant about his plans to betray his boss while his boss's other subordinates are in earshot.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 12:39 pm
  

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Seto wrote:
The omission of such a protective measure on every ship made before and since would be a pretty profound argument that that ain't it.

I would point out that in Ep47 (@~1310) part of the engine block on Carpenter's ship gets destroyed without a chain reaction occurring from a single hit, just like in Prelude. Now the RM ship beam that struck might not have the same power as a Syncro blast, but it provides some support then that either the ship has a design feature that make shots to the side blocks non-critical (miss reflex furnace or another safety feature) or the shot in Prelude was not capable/intended to destroy Grant's Tok. Either explanation works for me.

Seto wrote:
Edwards had literally no reason to expect that the ship would be carrying anything usable to him, since he believed that he and Dr. Zand had destroyed his research on shadow technology and all of the specs for things like the shadow fighters. Likewise, he would have had no expectation that its crew would willingly join his cause (and he acknowledges as much in his villain speech in the comic). The idea that they have usable intelligence is pretty silly too, since he'd only been gone a year and there was no reason to suspect the UEEF would make any significant strides in their war with the Invid as he believed he'd wiped out the trump card that was his shadow technology research.

Edwards has every reason to suspect the ship would be valuable to him in a variety of ways as I mentioned. You say he "believed" the research was destroyed, now he can potentially confirm such a "belief". He can find out what if/any counter-Stealth approaches the UEEF is developing to counter him. Edwards has 36mecha (per AotSC that's what a Shim can carry, more might fit if we pack them in) and a single ship, that equipment is going to need replacement parts eventually (Shadow Mecha likely have a high parts commonality with their baseline counter parts, the Tok/Shim compatibility is more questionable as it depends on how standardized UEEF hardware is). It's also worth considering that Edwards could modify the Tok's mecha for Invid operation. From a morale position, the Tok might carry new "entertainment" for his troops (you know new music, videos, etc). There are logical reasons for Edwards to want to capture a UEEF ship (even illogical ones given Edwards isn't completely sane).

Seto wrote:
To be entirely fair, the only time Earth-Lunar transit times are depicted as short is in Shadow Chronicles... where the moon is improperly animated as if it were only a few thousand kilometers from Earth instead of over a light second away.

To be fair to TSC we don't know what the transit time is in TSC, but it is hardly the only "short" example in RT as Ep1-3 (TMS) when Zentreadi ships move from lunar orbit (De-Fold site) to Earth or several examples in TRM saga (off hand, IIRC there might be some indications but I do not recall specifics).

The only time UEEF elements are shown to travel from Luna to Earth is in Ep84-5/TSC (and implied in Ep83). The 21st Mars Division assault in 2042 via dialogue arrives from via Space Fold (dialogue, non-narrator @~2:48 in Ep61), there is no indication if the 10th MD arrives via direct Fold or staged from the Moon in Invasion comic. Other than this we have no other UEEF attack forces that I can think of, so it seems unlikely the Regis would be interested in attacking the Moon (in Invasion comic #1 IIRC the UEEF does not expect the Invid to attack them in space) because it doesn't appear to come into play until 2044, and by 2038 is shown to be capable of repelling an invasion attempt of that given size.

Seto wrote:
There's a good deal of evidentiary distance between knowing that the Invid are capable of interstellar teleportation on such a massive scale and believing they can exercise such an ability casually. The UEEF's own experience with the immense energy requirements of interstellar travel would naturally predispose them to (correctly) suspect that the Regess lacked the energy to do that on demand.

I agree the Energy Phoenix is unlikely, but we know the Invid have some level of short range teleportation (you have Ariel/Marlene in TSC, but also NG-team teleporting into Regis's chamber in Ep84 @~12:29 and then Sera @~1555). Now the UEEF doesn't know about this (AFAIK), but it shows the Invid have capabilities the UEEF do not have (even tossing out TSC). If they have Long and Short range Teleportation, then they might have "medium range".

Seto wrote:
Whether the old explanation still holds, it was originally that she didn't possess that technology because her mindset was geared towards evolution rather than technological dominance.

I have to disagree. She had access to the technology before coming to Earth, at least if Sentinels is being taken into consideration.

While I agree her mindset is geared toward biological evolution, we also see technological evolution occurring (Invid Battloid & VF mecha and their use of missiles, the Invid Enforcer Command Unit is identified as "new" to Scott). If Invasion comic is to be believed the Invid have gone from some type of "parasite" to near human form in terms of biology since the UEEF contact, each Invid "form" appears to use their own mecha design(s) from known examples which means going backward it might also hold true. Invasion-videogame also has variants of the Scout (reused in comic with new weapon type), then it has the new Grappler. So she does seem to consider technology along side biology.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:29 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Edwards has every reason to suspect the ship would be valuable to him in a variety of ways as I mentioned.

Not really, no... because they don't make sense in context, require out-of-context knowledge, or are irrelevant.


ShadowLogan wrote:
You say he "believed" the research was destroyed, now he can potentially confirm such a "belief".

This isn't Star Trek. Ships don't sail around the galaxy with a computer library full of every bit of information in the galaxy... especially not warships headed into enemy territory.

Edwards would have no reason to expect to find any information about his, or anyone else's, top secret military R&D work in the databanks of the Tokugawa. You don't send that kind of data into harm's way where it could potentially fall into enemy hands.


ShadowLogan wrote:
He can find out what if/any counter-Stealth approaches the UEEF is developing to counter him.

As above, Edwards would have no reasonable expectation of finding any data about UEEF R&D in the Tokugawa's computers.

Mind you, he would have known right away if they'd developed anything workable because they would've seen him coming and either struck first or avoided his ridiculously telegraphed attack. That his ship, the Icarus, flew right up to the Tokugawa unopposed and sank her with its first shot was proof enough that the UEEF didn't have any anti-Shadow countermeasures.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Edwards has 36mecha (per AotSC that's what a Shim can carry, more might fit if we pack them in) and a single ship, that equipment is going to need replacement parts eventually (Shadow Mecha likely have a high parts commonality with their baseline counter parts, the Tok/Shim compatibility is more questionable as it depends on how standardized UEEF hardware is). It's also worth considering that Edwards could modify the Tok's mecha for Invid operation.

By that point, Edwards had an entire army of Invid inorganics and all of the Invid Regent's facilities on Optera at his disposal. The Icarus and 36 Shadow Fighters are potent by the standards of the day, but not a significant portion of his forces. Presumably the Icarus has the necessary facilities to manufacture replacement parts for its Shadow Fighters and/or Dr. Zand is also capable of manufacturing replacement parts. If he were concerned about capturing the Tokugawa for its equipment he would've disabled and boarded her, not sunk her.


ShadowLogan wrote:
From a morale position, the Tok might carry new "entertainment" for his troops (you know new music, videos, etc).

From where? The UEEF is a society of soldiers, there are no civilians (save Minmei). There are no musicians, no filmmakers, no entertainers of any stripe except for a single washed-up one-hit wonder who's been passive-aggressively stalking her ex... until Edwards kidnapped and tortured her, anyway.


ShadowLogan wrote:
To be fair to TSC we don't know what the transit time is in TSC, but it is hardly the only "short" example in RT as Ep1-3 (TMS) when Zentreadi ships move from lunar orbit (De-Fold site) to Earth or several examples in TRM saga (off hand, IIRC there might be some indications but I do not recall specifics).

They're never stated to actually get much closer to Earth... the ships that the SDF-1 shoots down are closing with Earth, but every shot from the Zentradi or at the Zentradi is said to come from near lunar orbit.


ShadowLogan wrote:
I agree the Energy Phoenix is unlikely, but we know the Invid have some level of short range teleportation [...]

There's that out-of-context knowledge again.

The UEEF didn't know the Invid could DO that until Scott and co. encountered it at the very end of the 3rd Robotech War. It cannot figure into the UEEF's strategic outlook. Until RTSC, they had no evidence it could be done over a distance of more than a few hundred meters and there's no evidence it can be done en masse. Ariel was mostly limited to distances of a few kilometers and groups of only a dozen or so people.


ShadowLogan wrote:
While I agree her mindset is geared toward biological evolution, we also see technological evolution occurring (Invid Battloid & VF mecha and their use of missiles, the Invid Enforcer Command Unit is identified as "new" to Scott). If Invasion comic is to be believed the Invid have gone from some type of "parasite" to near human form in terms of biology since the UEEF contact, each Invid "form" appears to use their own mecha design(s) from known examples which means going backward it might also hold true. Invasion-videogame also has variants of the Scout (reused in comic with new weapon type), then it has the new Grappler. So she does seem to consider technology along side biology.

The series itself generally fails to treat the mecha and pilot as separate entities, and the "evolution" we see in the series includes "evolving" the mecha while the pilot is in it.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:20 pm
  

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Seto wrote:
Edwards would have no reason to expect to find any information about his, or anyone else's, top secret military R&D work in the databanks of the Tokugawa. You don't send that kind of data into harm's way where it could potentially fall into enemy hands.

Computer Banks aren't the only source of information he can plumb for information. Officers must have been briefed to some extent on what to expect, something that should be evident given the Tok. started to "dodge" (Grant gave the order, but whether it was apparent to Edwards' forces).

Seto wrote:
As above, Edwards would have no reasonable expectation of finding any data about UEEF R&D in the Tokugawa's computers.

Counter Stealth wouldn't need to be in data form, it would be in hardware form as in "what's this odd sensor" (or sensor setup or software patch doing). His crew wouild know what constitutes "normal" for a Tok when they defect, so they would be looking for changes to indicate new technology.

Seto wrote:
By that point, Edwards had an entire army of Invid inorganics and all of the Invid Regent's facilities on Optera at his disposal. The Icarus and 36 Shadow Fighters are potent by the standards of the day, but not a significant portion of his forces. Presumably the Icarus has the necessary facilities to manufacture replacement parts for its Shadow Fighters and/or Dr. Zand is also capable of manufacturing replacement parts. If he were concerned about capturing the Tokugawa for its equipment he would've disabled and boarded her, not sunk her.

Edwards might have the Inorganics (and Invid), but can he replace losses?

I don't see why the Icarus would have facilities to manufacture replacement parts, Zand would still need necessary materials to setup production.

For all intents and purposes he did disable her (at the point he decides to wait), it isn't until later that it becomes apparent he sunk her. Even if the intend was to sink the Tok, it is 1mile long (approx), so there is a chance it might survive a crash landing (SDF-1, and some Zentreadi ships are of this size and they are known to have survived a crash landing).

Seto wrote:
From where? The UEEF is a society of soldiers, there are no civilians (save Minmei). There are no musicians, no filmmakers, no entertainers of any stripe except for a single washed-up one-hit wonder who's been passive-aggressively stalking her ex... until Edwards kidnapped and tortured her, anyway.


I think even if the UEEF is such a society of soliders, they are going to be the need for diversion. We know they produce guitars (see Invasion), holopendenats, etc. They even have a "news" division (young Scott following Wolf's exploits). They are going to need a way to keep morale up, then you have the issue of the children or what the soldiers do in their down time.

Seto wrote:
They're never stated to actually get much closer to Earth... the ships that the SDF-1 shoots down are closing with Earth, but every shot from the Zentradi or at the Zentradi is said to come from near lunar orbit.

You are forgetting about the landing forces that arrived on Macross Island. Those Re-Entry Pods and Gnerl Fighter Pods didn't teleport to the planet, they had to travel from the DeFold location to Earth. Even in Ep1 & 2 we can see the Zentreadi ships are pretty close to Earth (known size/perspective makes it unlikely they are still in Lunar Orbit).

Seto wrote:
The UEEF didn't know the Invid could DO that until Scott and co. encountered it at the very end of the 3rd Robotech War. It cannot figure into the UEEF's strategic outlook. Until RTSC, they had no evidence it could be done over a distance of more than a few hundred meters and there's no evidence it can be done en masse. Ariel was mostly limited to distances of a few kilometers and groups of only a dozen or so people.


I am not looking at the POV of the UEEF here on why not to attack from the Moon, I am looking at the POV of the Invid to launch an attack on the Moon.

Seto wrote:
The series itself generally fails to treat the mecha and pilot as separate entities, and the "evolution" we see in the series includes "evolving" the mecha while the pilot is in it.

True the Mecha get evolved with the pilot, but that in itself means the technology going into the mecha is evolving also.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:37 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Computer Banks aren't the only source of information he can plumb for information. Officers must have been briefed to some extent on what to expect, [...]

Edwards would have had no way to know who was in command of the Tokugawa, or if they were important enough to be briefed on the current state of military R&D.

Edwards seems to have been expecting the UEEF to be unwilling or unable to commit a serious force to pursuing him, so it's doubtful he would've been expecting one of Hunter's inner circle to be the captain of a rear echelon scrapheap like the Tokugawa.


ShadowLogan wrote:
[...] something that should be evident given the Tok. started to "dodge" (Grant gave the order, but whether it was apparent to Edwards' forces).

... taking evasive action is a pretty standard reaction to discovering there's an enemy ship starting an attack run on you, regardless of what it's armed with. Literally all Edwards would glean from that would be that the Tokugawa's commander wasn't completely inexperienced, hopelessly incompetent, and/or suicidal. (Given the Tokugawa's status in the UEEF fleet, the question of if it did in fact have such a captain would've been one that actually needed asking.)


ShadowLogan wrote:
Counter Stealth wouldn't need to be in data form, it would be in hardware form as in "what's this odd sensor" (or sensor setup or software patch doing). His crew wouild know what constitutes "normal" for a Tok when they defect, so they would be looking for changes to indicate new technology.

Edwards wouldn't have had any reason to bother looking, because the Tokugawa's failure to detect and react to the Icarus's attack run until it was close enough to be spotted with the naked eye was proof positive they didn't have anything. He'd literally just watched the Icarus catch the Tokugawa with its proverbial pants down and sink it.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Edwards might have the Inorganics (and Invid), but can he replace losses?

He wouldn't have been planning an invasion of Earth if he couldn't... and potentially not just by building new inorganics, it's possible he could also seize control of active Invid units with the computer he had acquired.


ShadowLogan wrote:
I don't see why the Icarus would have facilities to manufacture replacement parts, Zand would still need necessary materials to setup production.

I'd be absolutely shocked if it didn't. Even the smallest regular warships in modern Navy service have one or more machine shops aboard to fabricate replacement parts for items lost due to wear and tear, battle damage, etc. It's not a new feature either, even light escort ships that fought in the world wars had them. Even back in the age of sail, it was standard practice to carry tools and crew who had woodworking training to manage repairs due to wear and tear or battle damage.


ShadowLogan wrote:
For all intents and purposes he did disable her (at the point he decides to wait), it isn't until later that it becomes apparent he sunk her. Even if the intend was to sink the Tok, it is 1mile long (approx), so there is a chance it might survive a crash landing (SDF-1, and some Zentreadi ships are of this size and they are known to have survived a crash landing).

Alien ships have been known to survive crash landings... humanity's, not so much. Plus the immediate order to abandon ship that the first hit prompted would've made it clear at the outset that he had sunk the Tokugawa beyond any hope of recovery.


ShadowLogan wrote:
I think even if the UEEF is such a society of soliders, they are going to be the need for diversion. We know they produce guitars (see Invasion), holopendenats, etc. They even have a "news" division (young Scott following Wolf's exploits). They are going to need a way to keep morale up, then you have the issue of the children or what the soldiers do in their down time.

Considering we're told flat out there is no career path for anyone outside the military, it's possible there aren't any humans manufacturing these things and they're either items taken from Earth before contact with it was lost or there's some robot factory turning out consumer goods. "News" in this case is basically a declassified intelligence reel broadcast as propaganda, so no need for a dedicated news division. It's possible some entertainment materials are traded for from aliens like the (revolting) liquor Marcus had in RTSC, though Edwards's personnel are even more hardline xenophobes than the average UEEF soldier so it's unlikely they would voluntarily consume that material. (Did I just argue they're hipsters who insist on consuming only prewar entertainment materials from Earth?)


ShadowLogan wrote:
You are forgetting about the landing forces that arrived on Macross Island. Those Re-Entry Pods and Gnerl Fighter Pods didn't teleport to the planet, they had to travel from the DeFold location to Earth. Even in Ep1 & 2 we can see the Zentreadi ships are pretty close to Earth (known size/perspective makes it unlikely they are still in Lunar Orbit).

We're told in dialog they're still in or near lunar orbit, so it's not so unlikely...


ShadowLogan wrote:
I am not looking at the POV of the UEEF here on why not to attack from the Moon, I am looking at the POV of the Invid to launch an attack on the Moon.

That they don't use teleportation to do it would be a pretty sound argument that they can't, given that they react with massive overkill every other time the UEEF presents a threat and even hunt down beaten and defenseless soldiers.


ShadowLogan wrote:
True the Mecha get evolved with the pilot, but that in itself means the technology going into the mecha is evolving also.

Or that a bunch of it isn't technological at all... but rather, biological.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:30 pm
  

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Back to 1st Edition I've loved to have a RDF team think the battle is over, just to see the how many Zen infantry have crawled out of their crippled mecha to continue the fight.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:17 pm
  

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Seto wrote:
... taking evasive action is a pretty standard reaction to discovering there's an enemy ship starting an attack run on you, regardless of what it's armed with. Literally all Edwards would glean from that would be that the Tokugawa's commander wasn't completely inexperienced, hopelessly incompetent, and/or suicidal. (Given the Tokugawa's status in the UEEF fleet, the question of if it did in fact have such a captain would've been one that actually needed asking.)

Except the Icarus's syncro-cannon is supposed to be cloaked by the shadow device (which didn't do anything about the tell tale glow) so the UEEF would have very limited time to know if it was starting an attack run.

The Tok. did detect the Icarus in orbit (along w/the N-S warheads) so the UEEF seems to have some counter-stealth sensors (the shadow devive would block radar return). That alone makes the Tok. valuable in an information sense (if he knows how they detect the ship, a counter-counter-stealth approach could be used).

Seto wrote:
He wouldn't have been planning an invasion of Earth if he couldn't... and potentially not just by building new inorganics, it's possible he could also seize control of active Invid units with the computer he had acquired.

Inorganics (at least the known types) are all ground troops AFAIK, he still needs to be able to get them onto the ground. He does have control of the Regent's Invid, but we have no idea if the Regis's Invid are even compatible with the Regent's computer, or the range he would have to bring his own computer in order to hijack the Regis's Invid, or how the Regis would react to the appearance of the Regent's Invid in her space, etc.

The fact that the UEEF sent in a single Tokugawa suggests the Regent's forces aren't that numerous, even if they are supported by a UEEF Shim.

Seto wrote:
I'd be absolutely shocked if it didn't. Even the smallest regular warships in modern Navy service have one or more machine shops aboard to fabricate replacement parts for items lost due to wear and tear, battle damage, etc. It's not a new feature either, even light escort ships that fought in the world wars had them. Even back in the age of sail, it was standard practice to carry tools and crew who had woodworking training to manage repairs due to wear and tear or battle damage.

However there is a limit to what those ships can fabricate. I just can't see the ship having the machineshop being at the level of being able to replace every part/component needed. That just seems equally as unlikely as having no machineshop (for a ship the size of the Shim-class, Tok/SDF-1 maybe). It's probably also worth remembering than the Icarus wasn't complete (per dialogue in Prelude by Hunter when it launches), further supporting the idea that they could need the Tok. for materials.

Seto wrote:
Alien ships have been known to survive crash landings... humanity's, not so much. Plus the immediate order to abandon ship that the first hit prompted would've made it clear at the outset that he had sunk the Tokugawa beyond any hope of recovery.

Human ships you refer to though are much smaller than the Tokugawa (only the SDF-# and Ark Angel are known to be bigger). And NG-era ships seen suggest there is still salvageable material onboard (though explored out of seen ratio isn't the best).

Seto wrote:
We're told in dialog they're still in or near lunar orbit, so it's not so unlikely...

Except you are still forgeting the Zentreadi landing force that invaded Macross Island in Ep1-3, the one the VFs engage an air-battle with vs Gnerls in Ep1 above the island, the Landing Craft submerged in the ocean in Ep2-3 and the Battlepods that invaded the island (some of which hitched a ride w/the SDF-1 fold in ep3). How long did those forces take to travel from Lunar Orbit to the surface (and then back for the recall)? Even if we go with the dialogue that the fleet proper stayed in lunar orbit, some elements did approach Earth and make it to ground.

Seto wrote:
That they don't use teleportation to do it would be a pretty sound argument that they can't, given that they react with massive overkill every other time the UEEF presents a threat and even hunt down beaten and defenseless soldiers.

I am no so sure they can't. They only react with massive overkill when the UEEF gets to close, which is from an Invid POV on what "close" is as opposed to a human POV. And it isn't like the UEEF was staging attacks from the Moon until 2044 by all indication, it is speculation that the Moon was being used for this purpose in 2031-2043 period.

Seto wrote:
Considering we're told flat out there is no career path for anyone outside the military, it's possible there aren't any humans manufacturing these things and they're either items taken from Earth before contact with it was lost or there's some robot factory turning out consumer goods. "News" in this case is basically a declassified intelligence reel broadcast as propaganda, so no need for a dedicated news division. It's possible some entertainment materials are traded for from aliens like the (revolting) liquor Marcus had in RTSC, though Edwards's personnel are even more hardline xenophobes than the average UEEF soldier so it's unlikely they would voluntarily consume that material. (Did I just argue they're hipsters who insist on consuming only prewar entertainment materials from Earth?)

I agree the "news" in quotes is proper as its essentially propaganda, but that means there is a propaganda division in the UEEF. So those people have skills and equipment to produce material for propaganda purposes. The military does have marching bands, so they would have people with musical talents (Lancer as an example) they would have to support and those people could in their down time produce music for consumption (some musical groups even in the civilian world do have day jobs). Lancer's ability to impersonate a woman would suggest that stage/screen acting is something they could do in off hours (or for propaganda/training purposes). There might even be "sports" teams to follow (they likely already have the basic equipment available, though unlikely they would "fix" the matches). Then you have people doing other creative outlets for consumption (writing, art, etc). The UEEF would know they need things like this to keep morale up.

There are a variety of roles the military would also have to takeup logically if they are cut off from civilian support. They need people for food production (no guarantee alien foods are edible), they need people for child care (infants and other young children), teachers for said children (math, language, science, etc). If they have these under "military career path" in the UEEF then it really isn't a stretch for there to be other roles that one might not ordinarily associate with the military, but would exist officially even if it was for "off hours".


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Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:27 pm
  

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RockJock wrote:
Back to 1st Edition I've loved to have a RDF team think the battle is over, just to see the how many Zen infantry have crawled out of their crippled mecha to continue the fight.

"What're you gonna do? Bleed on me?"



ShadowLogan wrote:
Except the Icarus's syncro-cannon is supposed to be cloaked by the shadow device (which didn't do anything about the tell tale glow) so the UEEF would have very limited time to know if it was starting an attack run.

Unsurprisingly, the entire engagement took place at visual ranges... where the Tokugawa crew could spot the Icarus with the good ol' Mk.I Eyeball.


ShadowLogan wrote:
The Tok. did detect the Icarus in orbit (along w/the N-S warheads) so the UEEF seems to have some counter-stealth sensors (the shadow devive would block radar return). That alone makes the Tok. valuable in an information sense (if he knows how they detect the ship, a counter-counter-stealth approach could be used).

Now, I know Edwards has an artificial eye... but he's not ignorant of the fact that the crew of the Tokugawa would have two working eyeballs under most circumstances and that most ships have a window or two you can look out of. That's not exactly hot new intel. The Tokugawa didn't have counter-stealth sensors, which we know from RTSC don't exist (in human tech anyway, Haydonites presumably have them but didn't share them). They wouldn't have had any issue spotting the neutron-s warheads since their shadow fields are internal only, damping the gravity of the neutronium in the warhead.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Inorganics (at least the known types) are all ground troops AFAIK, he still needs to be able to get them onto the ground.

While we don't see anything of the Regent's own forces except his personal ship, presumably the Regent has other ships of his own parked somewhere... likely in or around his headquarters on Optera.


ShadowLogan wrote:
He does have control of the Regent's Invid, but we have no idea if the Regis's Invid are even compatible with the Regent's computer, or the range he would have to bring his own computer in order to hijack the Regis's Invid, or how the Regis would react to the appearance of the Regent's Invid in her space, etc.

Edwards received key intelligence and technical assistance from the Haydonites, who are experts on the Invid and anti-Invid countermeasures that explicitly intended to have humanity exterminate the Invid for them. It is, thus, VERY doubtful that Edwards' plan would not be eminently workable. We can safely assume that the Regent's computer could seize control of the Regess's Invid, likely at long ranges given that we see computers of this type directing Invid operations over entire Invid hives on Earth that police significant geographic regions. (Assuming he doesn't possess some way to extend the area of control further... which is likely given the Regent would've been more dependent on them than the Regess was.)


ShadowLogan wrote:
The fact that the UEEF sent in a single Tokugawa suggests the Regent's forces aren't that numerous, even if they are supported by a UEEF Shim.

Really, the fact that the UEEF sent a single Tokugawa-class carrier suggests one thing only... Rick Hunter was trying to get Vince Grant killed.

The Tokugawa-class had long since been proven to be a woefully incapable warship hopelessly unsuited to the realities of ship-to-ship combat, which saw it relegated to rear-echelon transport and logistics duties. Its chances of defeating a next-generation escort warship designed to punch WAY above its weight class were effectively zero even before that warship was made invisible to the UEEF's sensors and retrofitted with an anti-warship synchro cannon. They sent a glorified freighter to fight a hostile force that'd fought the entire UEEF to a standstill for two decades and had nearly destroyed the SDF-3 in a single shot and made a mockery of the UEEF Tirol garrison force just a year earlier. It makes no strategic sense.


ShadowLogan wrote:
However there is a limit to what those ships can fabricate. I just can't see the ship having the machineshop being at the level of being able to replace every part/component needed. That just seems equally as unlikely as having no machineshop (for a ship the size of the Shim-class, Tok/SDF-1 maybe). It's probably also worth remembering than the Icarus wasn't complete (per dialogue in Prelude by Hunter when it launches), further supporting the idea that they could need the Tok. for materials.

Edwards and Zand had sufficient resources and manufacturing capability to retrofit the Icarus with shadow technology including a substantial rebuild to replace the ship's bow-mounted missile batteries with a synchro cannon. Replacement parts for their VFs shouldn't be an issue if they can carry that off in short order.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Human ships you refer to though are much smaller than the Tokugawa (only the SDF-# and Ark Angel are known to be bigger). And NG-era ships seen suggest there is still salvageable material onboard (though explored out of seen ratio isn't the best).

The last time we saw a Tokugawa-class crash, she exploded like a cheap Chinese firework... and the there's a big difference between ships that were attacked after reentry (or potentially even after landing) and a ship that fell out of orbit in an uncontrolled fashion.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Except you are still forgeting the Zentreadi landing force that invaded Macross Island in Ep1-3, the one the VFs engage an air-battle with vs Gnerls in Ep1 above the island, the Landing Craft submerged in the ocean in Ep2-3 and the Battlepods that invaded the island (some of which hitched a ride w/the SDF-1 fold in ep3). How long did those forces take to travel from Lunar Orbit to the surface (and then back for the recall)? Even if we go with the dialogue that the fleet proper stayed in lunar orbit, some elements did approach Earth and make it to ground.

Those were much more advanced ships than anything humanity had, so it wouldn't be at all surprising if they could make the trip much faster.


ShadowLogan wrote:
I am no so sure they can't. They only react with massive overkill when the UEEF gets to close, which is from an Invid POV on what "close" is as opposed to a human POV. And it isn't like the UEEF was staging attacks from the Moon until 2044 by all indication, it is speculation that the Moon was being used for this purpose in 2031-2043 period.

In RTSC they intercept the UEEF in high orbit, that's pretty damn far for "close". The moon isn't much farther. There is nothing to suggest Robotech changed the original show's stance that fleets mustered at the moon before attacking Earth. Indeed, we see c.2044 that the moon is still a major military base for mustering assaults on Earth.


ShadowLogan wrote:
I agree the "news" in quotes is proper as its essentially propaganda, but that means there is a propaganda division in the UEEF.

Or that it's just a function of the existing UEEF intelligence arm we see represented in-series... deceptive editing of footage isn't the same as producing all-new media.


ShadowLogan wrote:
The military does have marching bands, so they would have people with musical talents (Lancer as an example) they would have to support and those people could in their down time produce music for consumption (some musical groups even in the civilian world do have day jobs).

Modern militaries do... out of a sense of tradition going back to when musicians were an integral part of old school maneuver warfare. We never see anything analogous in Robotech. The only popular music ever seen with the UEEF out in space is Minmei's thirty year old caterwauling.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Lancer's ability to impersonate a woman would suggest that stage/screen acting is something they could do in off hours (or for propaganda/training purposes).

IIRC, in Robotech this is presented as something he learned from the girl who sheltered him when he landed on Earth (Carla?).

In MOSPEADA, Yellow Belmont was basically a weeb (No, really!) whose crossdressing performer disguise was inspired by his fascination with kabuki theater.


ShadowLogan wrote:
There might even be "sports" teams to follow (they likely already have the basic equipment available, though unlikely they would "fix" the matches).

As a highly mobile assault force, it seems highly unlikely the UEEF's operating environment would make this workable. Those ships are not big, and it seems very doubtful they would have anything like a free internal space big enough for sport.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Then you have people doing other creative outlets for consumption (writing, art, etc). The UEEF would know they need things like this to keep morale up.

Considering we're looking at an entire generation who were born and raised in space knowing only war, the complete absence of this in-series is hardly surprising. What counts as uplifting to people who grew up in space, devoid of civilian culture, in an environment of constant warfare?


ShadowLogan wrote:
There are a variety of roles the military would also have to takeup logically if they are cut off from civilian support. They need people for food production (no guarantee alien foods are edible), they need people for child care (infants and other young children), teachers for said children (math, language, science, etc). If they have these under "military career path" in the UEEF then it really isn't a stretch for there to be other roles that one might not ordinarily associate with the military, but would exist officially even if it was for "off hours".

Many of these can likely be replaced technologically. Some alien foods are clearly edible, though not necessarily pleasing to the human palate, but it's highly likely that most of the food being served to the troops is highly (re)processed synthetic food as was implicitly going on aboard the SDF-1 (explicitly in the original show and its sequels) and many other sci-fi shows.

Education is likely pretty basic, and most basic education can be handled by interactive computer software even today. Knowing to read is essential to be a soldier. Knowing how to interpret poetry isn't.

Basic childcare was likely fobbed off on the medical corps.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:35 am
  

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Knight

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Don't laugh Seto, the Melee Specialist, or whatever they are called in Strike Force could be nasty.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:11 am
  

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RockJock wrote:
Back to 1st Edition I've loved to have a RDF team think the battle is over, just to see the how many Zen infantry have crawled out of their crippled mecha to continue the fight.


Shouldn't be very many as we can see numerous bullet hole in the back of the armour (exit wounds) of the first zentraedi that Hikaru/Rick killed when he completely unloaded his GU-11 into his battlepod. There also appears to be exit hole in the back of the regult but they magically disappear when the camera angle changes (ah the animation errors you get from hand drawn animation). This would seem to argue that the penetration power of the rounds from a GU-11 are significantly greator than the armour of a regult battlepod.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:16 pm
  

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Seto wrote:
Now, I know Edwards has an artificial eye... but he's not ignorant of the fact that the crew of the Tokugawa would have two working eyeballs under most circumstances and that most ships have a window or two you can look out of. That's not exactly hot new intel. The Tokugawa didn't have counter-stealth sensors, which we know from RTSC don't exist (in human tech anyway, Haydonites presumably have them but didn't share them). They wouldn't have had any issue spotting the neutron-s warheads since their shadow fields are internal only, damping the gravity of the neutronium in the warhead.

Edwards isn't ignorant either of the value the Tok can provide in terms of potential intelligence and materials. Using MkI eye-ball is not what the crew of the Tok used, they had it on monitor screens (some type of camera system was involved).

Seto wrote:
While we don't see anything of the Regent's own forces except his personal ship, presumably the Regent has other ships of his own parked somewhere... likely in or around his headquarters on Optera.

I agree the Regent has more ships, but the Inorganics are very limited in what they can do on approach to Earth until they land is my point. The UEEF at that point had 2 attacks repelled in space, so Edwards will need space capable forces to repel any counter attack.

Seto wrote:
Edwards received key intelligence and technical assistance from the Haydonites, who are experts on the Invid and anti-Invid countermeasures that explicitly intended to have humanity exterminate the Invid for them. It is, thus, VERY doubtful that Edwards' plan would not be eminently workable. We can safely assume that the Regent's computer could seize control of the Regess's Invid, likely at long ranges given that we see computers of this type directing Invid operations over entire Invid hives on Earth that police significant geographic regions. (Assuming he doesn't possess some way to extend the area of control further... which is likely given the Regent would've been more dependent on them than the Regess was.)

While the Haydonites might be experts on the Invid, we know they kept things from the UEEF proper (and likely Edwards).

It's also worth asking "Can Invid even intentionally attack each other?" Even Corg and Sera couldn't harm Ariel/Marlene, and I can't think of a single intentional Invid Friendly Fire incident where the Invid knowingly fired upon one another (Ariel/Marlene as a passenger yes, but the Invid might not know she was there).

It's probably also worth considering too that the Regis Invid have been evolving, and her Invid "brain computer" might have reach incompatibility with the Regent's Invid "brain computer".

Seto wrote:
Really, the fact that the UEEF sent a single Tokugawa-class carrier suggests one thing only... Rick Hunter was trying to get Vince Grant killed.

No it doesn't. The UEEF sent a single "UPGRADED" Tokugawa, though I do agree the Tok. shouldn't have gone it alone. The Tok's capabilities get into strength levels of a task force comprised of Ikazuchis and/or Garfish.

The baseline Tokugawa carries ~1000mecha (that's almost x2 RT-ized Ikazuchi), and host of conventional weapons (beam cannons and missiles). The only advantage the Shim.-class has over the Tok. is its syncro-cannon and shadow systems, and the Syncro-cannon was a retro-fit. In a ship-ship fight, the Tok. essentially outguns the original Shim design (that the UEEF would plan around), especially if it gets the first shots in (it has 16x anti-ship beam weapons, 12 point defense guns, 6x15 missile launchers, and a 15 shot missile launcher with 150 missiles vs the Shim's 1x anti-ship beam weapon, 4x point defense guns, 34x missile launcher, 1x syncro-cannon they would not know about). This doesn't even consider if the Tok. has any mecha with anti-ship missiles (Conbat or Beta for example).

Seto wrote:
Edwards and Zand had sufficient resources and manufacturing capability to retrofit the Icarus with shadow technology including a substantial rebuild to replace the ship's bow-mounted missile batteries with a synchro cannon. Replacement parts for their VFs shouldn't be an issue if they can carry that off in short order.

The Bow wasn't a missile battery AFAIK, Genisis Pits SB says it was a laser cannon though AotSC (pg110-1) says it was a magazine (the missile launchers that are labeled in the artwork are still present). Regardless though Edwards took the time to remodel the front half of the ship, that could have provided some/all of the material to create the Syncro-Cannon (it probably depends on just what is need, what they can do with what was present). Dialogue in Prelude shows it already had Shadow Technology (Vince reports it doesn't show on sensors, even confirmed by Wolf Squadron dialogue during intercept at Tirol in Chapter 1/Volume1).

Seto wrote:
The last time we saw a Tokugawa-class crash, she exploded like a cheap Chinese firework... and the there's a big difference between ships that were attacked after reentry (or potentially even after landing) and a ship that fell out of orbit in an uncontrolled fashion.

Granted, but dialogue before the crash also indicates it was ready to blow at any second. Though technically Prelude doesn't reveal if the ship burnt-up/exploded during re-entry or made it to the ground.

Seto wrote:
In RTSC they intercept the UEEF in high orbit, that's pretty damn far for "close". The moon isn't much farther. There is nothing to suggest Robotech changed the original show's stance that fleets mustered at the moon before attacking Earth. Indeed, we see c.2044 that the moon is still a major military base for mustering assaults on Earth.

The Moon is ~400,000km, or ~1/10th Geo-syncronous orbit which is where "High Orbit" starts. Which presents a pretty big gap.

RT dialogue for 21st MD in Ep61 specifically calls out that the force is traveling via Fold. 10th MD in Invasion doesn't say one-way or another.

Seto wrote:
IIRC, in Robotech this is presented as something he learned from the girl who sheltered him when he landed on Earth (Carla?).

In MOSPEADA, Yellow Belmont was basically a weeb (No, really!) whose crossdressing performer disguise was inspired by his fascination with kabuki theater.

Carla yes, Robotech doesn't really suggest he learned to act from Carla all it suggests is that to survive he had to act like a she (which suggests that female soldiers weren't common). A deeper dive likely depends on the source (LLA-OVA might differ I haven't seen it).

Seto wrote:
As a highly mobile assault force, it seems highly unlikely the UEEF's operating environment would make this workable. Those ships are not big, and it seems very doubtful they would have anything like a free internal space big enough for sport.

It might depend on the sport (and what one qualifies as a sport given modern "e-sports"). I would also think that surface facilities (or orbiting stations) are more likely to have "sports" than ships, ship space likely means multi-purpose areas. The main thing is I think the UEEF is going to have to find something for their soldiers to do during their down time, even modern militaries do this as they aren't engaged in combat 24/7 (and the UEEF doesn't show that it is 24/7 either). We know they have time for dating (Scott/Marlenee-human for example, Lancer fends off "advances" of his CO, etc) which means they are going to have time for other pursuits to.

Seto wrote:
Many of these can likely be replaced technologically. Some alien foods are clearly edible, though not necessarily pleasing to the human palate, but it's highly likely that most of the food being served to the troops is highly (re)processed synthetic food as was implicitly going on aboard the SDF-1 (explicitly in the original show and its sequels) and many other sci-fi shows.

Education is likely pretty basic, and most basic education can be handled by interactive computer software even today. Knowing to read is essential to be a soldier. Knowing how to interpret poetry isn't.

While technology can replace aspects, they still need human supervision for food processing and education. Alien food stuffs might work, but human palates differ individually (allergies, tastes, etc).

Education I think if the UEEF is going to want a well rounded education system for several reasons. 1. to replace scientists and others in R&D. 2. Hunter in the past stated that humans shouldn't allow themselves to become like the Zentreadi 3. to give them some diversions in education they might look forward to 4. to introduce them to "hobbies" for their down time 5. skill transferal


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Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:38 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 am
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Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
RockJock wrote:
Don't laugh Seto, the Melee Specialist, or whatever they are called in Strike Force could be nasty.

Only if you're foolish enough to come down there and fight hand to hand. :wink:



camk4evr wrote:
Shouldn't be very many as we can see numerous bullet hole in the back of the armour (exit wounds) of the first zentraedi that Hikaru/Rick killed when he completely unloaded his GU-11 into his battlepod. There also appears to be exit hole in the back of the regult but they magically disappear when the camera angle changes (ah the animation errors you get from hand drawn animation). This would seem to argue that the penetration power of the rounds from a GU-11 are significantly greator than the armour of a regult battlepod.

We're never told which of the half-dozen main types of ammunition was loaded into the gunpod Hikaru's VF-1D was armed with, but given that he sprays that Regult and gets through-and-throughs and not an explosion it seems safe to assume it was probably armor-piercing hard rounds rather than the armor piercing high explosive rounds that were the standard for most of the war. The GU-11A was designed for an enemy with approximately equal armor strength to the VF-1 Valkyrie itself, they didn't expect an invading alien army to consider its troops expendable.

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