Board index » MDC Worlds » Robotech® - The Shadow Chronicles® - Macross II®

 


Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:27 am
  

User avatar
Champion

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:46 am
Posts: 2733
Location: SDF-1, Macross Island
Do they wear armor inside the pod? If so, would it be stupid to think that the pilots could eject and then engage in standard dismounted infantry combat?

Also, just skimming over the books, it really becomes apparent just how fast the Zentraedi are and how necessary the Veritechs are. The VF's were the only thing that could match the speed of the Zentraedi and then fight them on the ground. The combat power of a Zentraedi battalion (?) of 144 battlepods, 14 light artillery battlepods, 7 heavy artillery battlepods, one tactical recon pod and one officer's battlepod is pretty insane. The ability to engage targets at 100+ mph to a range of 100 miles vs aircraft and ground targets at 25 miles is pretty crazy. Any ground targets they could not kill, they could avoid...

Destroids could target ground targets only to 15 miles, and had no EW capability.

I realize that the game is primarily based on squad based combat, and the anime has the Zentraedi being severely hamstrung with the whole "don't destroy Zor's ship" thing...but against most enemy forces the Zentraedi would handily destroy them very quickly. With the new guerrilla warfare MOS, the tactical options really open up. Even a single destroyer with it's 1000 battlepods would absolutely devastate the Invid in ground conflict.

I suppose that the Invid focus on close quarter/melee conflict, lack of advanced EW systems to attack, disregard of casualties, and a rigid/biological hierarchy pretty much played into all the factors that the Zentraedi were weak in (as in, the majority of the Zentraedi enemies prior to the Invid were able to be attacked at range, with EW, with excessive casualties and by attacking the HQ units). The inability of those tactics to work against the Invid were able to compensate for their pretty lackluster combat abilities.

I wonder what the K/D ratios for the various forces were during the various wars....I suspect that the Invid were pretty low, since they didn't really seem to practice combined arms warfare, but I suppose that doesn't matter when your enemies guns run out of ammo and their barrels melt and they can't sleep for weeks of relentless onslaught. It makes the Invid far more terrifying to seem them as a nigh infinite, implacable force. They are even better than some other enemies because you can't reason with them, and all they want is your death...not even to eat you, just to kill you.

-STS

_________________
My skin is not a sin - Carlos Wallace
A man's rights rest in three boxes. The ballot box, jury box and the cartridge box - Frederick Douglass
I am a firm believer that men with guns can solve any problem - Inscriptus
Any system in which the most populated areas have the most political power, creates an incentive for areas that want power to increase their population - Killer Cyborg


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:10 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 6338
Location: WI
slade the sniper wrote:
Do they wear armor inside the pod? If so, would it be stupid to think that the pilots could eject and then engage in standard dismounted infantry combat?

Yes the pod's pilot wears body armor while operating. There are numerous examples one could point to in the animation:
-Ep2 has a pilot emerging from his Regult
-Grell/Geraro is shown/implied in Body Armor piloting a Regult several times
-Khyron is shown in body armor piloting a Glaug numerous times (and the Male Power Armor)
-the pilot of Exedore's Recon Regult emerges in full body armor on his diplomatic mission
-various full-size operators of Regults in the failed Deadelus Attack
-Cyclops Recon pilots wear armor ("Miss Macross") given the Zentreadi spies

IIRC the only Zentreadi mecha pilots NOT shown in body armor would be the female pilots pre-FoA (post FoA does have males w/o armor emerging from Regults but this period is hardly normal). I am not sure if a Gnerl Fighter Pod pilot is ever shown.

As far as ejecting (ala ejection seat/system) I don't think they could (it isn't shown or mentioned in the RPG), they could certainly get out of the pod via normal means if the pod became to badly damaged (Ep2 example, post-FOA example on New Portland).


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:06 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 am
Posts: 5241
Location: New Frontier Shipyard, Earth-Moon L5
Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
slade the sniper wrote:
Do they wear armor inside the pod?

Yes, as seen on many occasions in the animation and in the line art. You can see the helmet and shoes from the standard Zentradi body armor in this line art from Macross: Perfect Memory:
http://www.macross2.net/m3/sdfmacross/r ... ockpit.gif

The same is true for the battle suits and other mecha, since the standard Zentradi body armor doubles as a spacesuit. The Queadluun-Rau pilot suits do not have visible hard-armor segments due to operational requirements of the mecha, but may otherwise be just as tough as the standard Zentradi gear. (The upgraded versions seen in later Macross stories show Zentradi pilots operating them in standard body armor.)


slade the sniper wrote:
If so, would it be stupid to think that the pilots could eject and then engage in standard dismounted infantry combat?

Well, not for that reason... they can't eject because there is no ejection seat. The only way for the pilot to disembark is to manually open the hatch at the rear of the mecha and climb out, which was neither easy nor comfortable to do and was very difficult to do quickly. (The only instance I can think of of disembarking while under fire was in Macross: Do You Remember Love?, in which some nameless Zentradi grunt tried to pry open the front of his badly damaged Regult to attack Max's VF-1A Super Valkyrie... and got several new 55mm holes in his head for his trouble.


slade the sniper wrote:
Also, just skimming over the books, it really becomes apparent just how fast the Zentraedi are and how necessary the Veritechs are. The VF's were the only thing that could match the speed of the Zentraedi and then fight them on the ground. The combat power of a Zentraedi battalion (?) of 144 battlepods, 14 light artillery battlepods, 7 heavy artillery battlepods, one tactical recon pod and one officer's battlepod is pretty insane. The ability to engage targets at 100+ mph to a range of 100 miles vs aircraft and ground targets at 25 miles is pretty crazy. Any ground targets they could not kill, they could avoid...

The RPG's stats are, in this regard, largely arbitrary and/or wildly inaccurate.

The Tomahawk, for instance, was capable of engaging with its weapons while running at over 110mph... but prevailing tactics generally didn't call for it to do so because it spent most of the war in the role of an ad hoc anti-aircraft unit.


slade the sniper wrote:
Destroids could target ground targets only to 15 miles, and had no EW capability.

Correctly statted, the Monster's good out to over 180 miles... but most Destroids were made for short-range anti-aircraft defense or infantry-style land warfare, so it's not surprising their engagement ranges weren't especially long. The OSM Phalanx had electronic attack capabilities using its radar as a gamma wave irradiation weapon.


slade the sniper wrote:
I realize that the game is primarily based on squad based combat, and the anime has the Zentraedi being severely hamstrung with the whole "don't destroy Zor's ship" thing...but against most enemy forces the Zentraedi would handily destroy them very quickly. With the new guerrilla warfare MOS, the tactical options really open up. Even a single destroyer with it's 1000 battlepods would absolutely devastate the Invid in ground conflict.

Yup... this is carryover from the OSM, where the only thing keeping the Macross from being destroyed was the fact that the Zentradi were so curious about it and the possibility that its crew were survivors of the Zentradi's long-vanished creators. Without the kid gloves, the Zentradi will wreck pretty much anything through sheer numbers.


slade the sniper wrote:
I wonder what the K/D ratios for the various forces were during the various wars...

From the OSM, the VF-1 Valkyrie averaged about 12:1 against the Zentradi during the First Space War. That improved down the line when updates were made to the VF-1 to improve its active stealth system, engines, and other systems to counter Zentradi ECM, ECCM, and so on.

The OSM also paints a very unflattering picture of the Southern Cross Army in general, though the Logan gets singled out in particular by its creators and called no more effective than a mosquito against Bioroids (Marie's apparently being an exception by dint of main character status).


slade the sniper wrote:
It makes the Invid far more terrifying to seem them as a nigh infinite, implacable force.

The Invid get a lot less terrifying when it becomes evident how fragile they are, and how big of an idiot ball you'd have to hold to actually lose a war to a foe with no ranged weaponry and armor so weak even man-portable rockets and light anti-materiel weapons are instantly lethal.

_________________
Macross2.net - Home of the Macross Mecha Manual

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:29 pm
  

User avatar
Rifts® Trivia Master

Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 3:37 pm
Posts: 13178
Location: Missouri
female power armor pilots do not wear the plate armor looking suits that we see the other mecha pilots employ, but they do have flightsuits with sealed helmets, suggesting enviromental armor of some sort. likely a similar style of "low profile" armor comparable in concept to the light armor protection built into the flightsuit of VF pilots. not tough enough to double as infantry armor (as with the battlepod pilots) but enough to protect the pilot some if their mecha is crippled.

and agreed that the pods do not appear to have anything like an ejection system.. in fact most of them don't even appear to have a separate pilot seat, instead the seats are built into the pod itself. which given how little the pods have inside aside from the pilot's seat and controls, is more or less inevitable. as mentioned though the standard pods are fairly easy to get out of. though the fact that the front hatch doubles as your glacis armor means that ease of entry and exit is probably part of why the pods are so easy to kill. the officers pod is a little bit tougher but not by that much. the power armors appear to be more involved in entry and exit but they are also a lot tougher and harder to hit.

_________________
Author of Rifts: Deep Frontier (Rifter 70)
Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
Image
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.

-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:49 am
  

User avatar
Champion

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:46 am
Posts: 2733
Location: SDF-1, Macross Island
Thanks for all the info. I would really love a good tactical/operational Robotech wargame (with all the factions included). Each faction would probably have a very different play style, even more so than some other sci-fantasy IPs.

-STS

_________________
My skin is not a sin - Carlos Wallace
A man's rights rest in three boxes. The ballot box, jury box and the cartridge box - Frederick Douglass
I am a firm believer that men with guns can solve any problem - Inscriptus
Any system in which the most populated areas have the most political power, creates an incentive for areas that want power to increase their population - Killer Cyborg


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:51 am
  

User avatar
Megaversal® Ambassador

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:23 am
Posts: 1995
Location: Houston, TX
Comment: "I will not be silenced. I will not submit. I will find the truth and shout it to the world. "
I really like the 2e Zentraedi. Between the skills and variations on the Battle Pods makes them just a brutal enemy. With all the information in the books I just don't see how the Invid could actual beat them.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
slade the sniper wrote:
It makes the Invid far more terrifying to seem them as a nigh infinite, implacable force.

The Invid get a lot less terrifying when it becomes evident how fragile they are, and how big of an idiot ball you'd have to hold to actually lose a war to a foe with no ranged weaponry and armor so weak even man-portable rockets and light anti-materiel weapons are instantly lethal.

I think the Invid are pretty formidable on a planet when they outnumber you 5 or 10 to 1. But in space they are just meat. In Invid Invasion they can be brutally tough especially with protoculture detection but I don't see how they can fight an army like the Zentraedi.

_________________
Northern Gun Chief of Robotics
Designer of NG-X40 Storm Hammer Power Armor & NG-HC1000 Dragonfly Hover Chopper
Big game hunter, explorer extra ordinaire and expert on the Aegis Buffalo
Ultimate Insider for WB 32: Lemuria, WB 33: Northern Gun 1, WB 34: Northern Gun 2
Showdown Backer Robotech RPG Tactics
Benefactor Insider Rifts Bestiary: Vol 1, Rifts Bestiary: Vol 2


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:16 am
  

User avatar
Rifts® Trivia Master

Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 3:37 pm
Posts: 13178
Location: Missouri
the same way that a hurricane can't be killed by a nuclear bomb. the zentreadi fleet is designed to fight enemy fleets and bombard planets. they have limited point defense that works against mecha. (both in the canon and in the rpg). and their big anti-ship guns will have trouble targeting small mecha and unable to kill more than a few a time using extreme overkill.

the invid are nothing but mecha in combat. their clamships are pure transports and as seen in the show, just stay well outside of range whle digorging massive swarms of mecha. the big guns of the zentreadi ships will be unable to inflict enough damage to the swarm to have any real effect, and zentreadi mecha aren't in a much better position, given that invid mecha are much much smaller, and often faster and more agile. the invid would be able to take down zent warships using many of the same tactics that they used against the UEEF over earth. though the larger size of the zent fleets would require a lot more mecha than the earth reclimation fleets did.

that said, there is nothing in canon to suggest that the zentreadi ever actually fought the invid. and in the sentinels OVA the invid regent waited until the grand fleet was destroyed and the masters had taken their own fleet and army outside the empire before they attacked.

_________________
Author of Rifts: Deep Frontier (Rifter 70)
Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
Image
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.

-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:22 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 6338
Location: WI
glitterboy2098 wrote:
the invid are nothing but mecha in combat. their clamships are pure transports and as seen in the show, just stay well outside of range whle digorging massive swarms of mecha. the big guns of the zentreadi ships will be unable to inflict enough damage to the swarm to have any real effect, and zentreadi mecha aren't in a much better position, given that invid mecha are much much smaller, and often faster and more agile. the invid would be able to take down zent warships using many of the same tactics that they used against the UEEF over earth. though the larger size of the zent fleets would require a lot more mecha than the earth reclimation fleets did.

The Zentreadi can target those clamships. They launched an attack on ships in low Earth Orbit in Ep3 From Lunar Orbit (IIRC in Ep2 the bombard Macross Island from the same), that ability was nerfed in the 2E RPG (but still have guns reaching out >10,000 miles). I don't think the UEEF ships used in 21st MD in 2E have anything like this in terms of range (AFAIK only the SDF-4 has guns in Zentreadi level range, ignoring Syncros), so the Invid would have a harder time. They'd almost have to wait and deploy Booster Scouts (and this assumes the Zentreadi don't do any softening up attacks making deployment of those assets harder).


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:02 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 am
Posts: 5241
Location: New Frontier Shipyard, Earth-Moon L5
Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
Warshield73 wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote:
slade the sniper wrote:
It makes the Invid far more terrifying to seem them as a nigh infinite, implacable force.

The Invid get a lot less terrifying when it becomes evident how fragile they are, and how big of an idiot ball you'd have to hold to actually lose a war to a foe with no ranged weaponry and armor so weak even man-portable rockets and light anti-materiel weapons are instantly lethal.

I think the Invid are pretty formidable on a planet when they outnumber you 5 or 10 to 1. But in space they are just meat. In Invid Invasion they can be brutally tough especially with protoculture detection but I don't see how they can fight an army like the Zentraedi.

That's just it... the Invid simply aren't capable of posing a significant threat unless you're stupid or suicidal enough to voluntarily opt to fight them on their terms.

The Earth Recapture Forces in the original Genesis Climber MOSPEADA didn't really have a choice but to fight the Inbit in ways that played to the Inbit's strengths because the technology available to Mars and the outer solar system colonies in 2083 simply wasn't advanced enough to allow any other kind of space war besides a landing operation. They'd only barely mastered interplanetary travel and laser weaponry, and their most advanced new weapon was a weaponized version of modern synchrotron particle accelerator technology. This becomes a bit of an adaptation-induced plot hole if we consider the Robotech setting, where humanity has access to things like beam weapons capable of precision bombardment at ranges exceeding a light second and it somehow never occurs to any strategist in the military's employ to install one or more batteries of those guns on the moon and use them to bombard Invid ships and surface targets with impunity. If even one person in the UEEF or UEDF thought about the problem objectively, the 3rd Robotech War would've been a hilarious turkey shoot against embarrassingly unprepared space crabs.

At double the listed maximum speed, an Invid carrier is capable of 3.594km/s. If they're even capable of doing more than shuttling ground forces up to low Earth orbit and can sustain that speed for an indefinite period, the artillery crews and ships operating on the moon will have over 29 1/2 hours to fire on the incoming enemy force before they're in any danger of being attacked themselves.

Of course, the strategic shortcomings don't stop there... the UEEF's next-generation fighter is about the worst conceivable design for fighting an enemy that relies on close-range combat and numerical advantages. You don't fight a Zerg rush by rushing the rush with a smaller number of troops, you maliciously abuse Area of Effect weapons to thin the herd to a manageable size. This doesn't seem to the UEEF at any point despite many of its officers being UEDF veterans who used exactly those tactics against the Zentradi to great effect. The Alpha is built exclusively for combat at visual range, with no medium- or long-range weapons or weapon options to speak of. The only worse choice for fighting a foe like the Invid would be the Logan, which barely has munitions at all. This is how you deal with an enemy that uses swarm tactics... you use long-range area of effect weaponry to take their formation to pieces before they ever get to you and mop up the survivors on an even-or-better footing. The adoption of "synchro cannons" is similarly bizarre, since they don't seem to offer any advantage over reflex cannons except rate-of-fire, which seems to not be much of an advantage at all given how much weaker they are... being incapable of damaging enemy ships with near-misses the way reflex cannons can, which would have been a huge asset for fighting Invid formations as well.

The TL;DR here is that the Invid are only a threat if your military's a kakistocracy instead of a meritocracy.

The Robotech (and Macross II) RPGs always shortsell the human ships for no clear reason even when it defies the source material, but the Zentradi got hit with the NERF bat too in RT2E... otherwise this strategy of a moon-based battery of ship gun turrets would be totally viable even in-game. (Then again, ship "main gun" systems didn't get this NERF, so they're totally viable for this purpose still.)

_________________
Macross2.net - Home of the Macross Mecha Manual

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:57 am
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 6338
Location: WI
Seto wrote:
The Earth Recapture Forces in the original Genesis Climber MOSPEADA didn't really have a choice but to fight the Inbit in ways that played to the Inbit's strengths because the technology available to Mars and the outer solar system colonies in 2083 simply wasn't advanced enough to allow any other kind of space war besides a landing operation

The Earth Recapture Forces might not need Zentreadi-level beam weapons. Theoretically speaking they did have the necessary tools, they just did not apply them:
-Massive missile volleys, launched from ships. There is some evidence that massive missile volleys of this nature work (if expensive) from the Legoiss, just think about what they could have do with reloads and banks of launchers built into those pods used by the Horizon and Garfish (if each can comfortably fit a Legoiss you could easily fit in each one facing forward a 7.85x4.5 grid, given clearance call it 8x5 for 40 upper arm stations for ~320 missiles and run on the enemy facing sides each would be at least 12.8x4.5grid of the same, throw in reloads and take advantage of additional room....)
-as missile volleys, but replace with multiple beam cannons (ex. Legoiss/TLead main guns) for area denial, they'd have the advantage of likely more shots than via reloads of missiles
-they could (potentially) redirect suitable sized asteroids or comets to act as a bombardment mechanism instead of beam weapons
=if they have Rail Gun technology, they could also produce mass drivers to be used as weapons (is the Legoiss 2nd Gunpod in the combo image with the wing hardpoints identified? I know I've seen it portrayed as a Gauss Cannon at robotech research fansite)
-build and launch "rods from god" from the Moon.
-at a Earth-Sun Lagrange point construct a giant solar shield(s) to block sunlight from reaching Earth (granted Inbit biology it probably do more harm to natives than the aliens)
-construct basically a giant magnifying glass to "burn the ants" (Germans looked at in WWII, a 9km^2 facility at 8,200km altitude. A size that should be doable for them given space station we see in still shots)

Seto wrote:
This becomes a bit of an adaptation-induced plot hole if we consider the Robotech setting, where humanity has access to things like beam weapons capable of precision bombardment at ranges exceeding a light second and it somehow never occurs to any strategist in the military's employ to install one or more batteries of those guns on the moon and use them to bombard Invid ships and surface targets with impunity.

One which might be explainable:
-Invid Force Fields (we know they have them, though this requires defining how they interact), so then what do you target the FoL fields, human popluation centers, the oceans, etc
-Weapons of this caliber eat up too much Protoculture for the UEEF to sanction their use (which by 2044 has 1year supply left per TSC).
-Invid "Jamming" Technology reduces the effectiveness (we know the Invid can jam communications either intentionally or unintentionally, setting precedent for them to have other jamming capabilities)
-located on the lunar surface gets into Grand Cannon limited firing arcs, (if the Invid could travel to the Moon they could go with a longer trajectory to bring them in at an angle the guns wouldn't be able to track assuming you don't setup for global coverage)
-If this was employed how long before the Invid start imitating those weapon systems (we know the Invid like to imitate other forms and apparently technology given the Invid Overlord Veritech) and counter attacking (with their PC supplies AND ability to setup shop anywhere on Earth they could have a ring going all the way around allowing them to attack the Moon sites 24/7)
-Invid could adopt "mobile" Hive designs that move with the rotation of the Earth (always staying out of the line of fire as they move) giving the Moon base nothing to shoot at
-UEEF sensors aren't up to the task of providing required targeting data (they had to use Shadow Fighters for recon patrol in TSC, suggesting sensors might not be up to the task), though why the UEEF wasn't able to salvage such tech from the Zentreadi to go with their Zentreadi beam weapons is an issue (almost like the UEEF is trying to purge itself of alien influences as much as possible).

Seto wrote:
The adoption of "synchro cannons" is similarly bizarre, since they don't seem to offer any advantage over reflex cannons except rate-of-fire, which seems to not be much of an advantage at all given how much weaker they are...

At Point-K Lancer suggests the team/group might be able to recover reflex weapons (generic term, nothing specific like Beam, Cannon, Missile, Warhead, etc), so limiting it to strictly the SDF-1 type of Main Gun implied:
-R-Cs might have a minimum practical size much larger than S-Cs as depicted in the animation
-Syncro-cannons are also potentially easier to produce (no twin boom).
-Power Consumption (nothing to base this on, but if they can be powered from a Gunpod power sources for multiple shots and the R-Cs can't).
-Precesion strikes, the S-C doesn't have the "wash" like a R-C is shown to have which would allow it to be used much closer to friendly troops (ex. you could fire S-Cs through your fleet formation's gaps, not so much with a R-C), granted you probably still don't want to be near the impact site of such an attack
-Force Field Disruption (if S-Cs can turn an Invid Force Field into swiss cheese, but R-Cs well we don't have an example of R-C on Force Fields do we in RT IINM suggesting a R-C isn't as effective against them)


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:27 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 am
Posts: 5241
Location: New Frontier Shipyard, Earth-Moon L5
Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
ShadowLogan wrote:
The Earth Recapture Forces might not need Zentreadi-level beam weapons. Theoretically speaking they did have the necessary tools, they just did not apply them:
-Massive missile volleys, launched from ships. There is some evidence that massive missile volleys of this nature work (if expensive) from the Legoiss, just think about what they could have do with reloads and banks of launchers built into those pods used by the Horizon and Garfish (if each can comfortably fit a Legoiss you could easily fit in each one facing forward a 7.85x4.5 grid, given clearance call it 8x5 for 40 upper arm stations for ~320 missiles and run on the enemy facing sides each would be at least 12.8x4.5grid of the same, throw in reloads and take advantage of additional room....)

The most obvious problem with this idea is that available technology in the setting doesn't really provide a way to lock onto such a vast number of small targets. Inbit mecha don't produce waste heat as such, being powered remotely by bioenergy beamed to them from their hives (which is why they can't operate away from LEO) so infrared seekers won't cut it and no available radar or laser system would be able to cope with so many simultaneous launches. Inbit ships won't come up from the surface until an enemy's in striking range, so even using larger, longer-range ordnance to strike at their Sheldo carriers isn't much of an option unless you're already carrying out an orbit-to-surface strike.


ShadowLogan wrote:
-as missile volleys, but replace with multiple beam cannons (ex. Legoiss/TLead main guns) for area denial, they'd have the advantage of likely more shots than via reloads of missiles

The Earth Recapture mission flotillas were humanity's state of the art c.2083 and they're little better than the ships of Gundam's Universal Century technologically. Prior to the introduction of the synchrotron cannon, their directed energy weapons were short-ranged laser and particle beam weapons barely more effective than the hard rounds they replaced. Most ships wouldn't have the power available to run a slew of extra beam cannons and doing something like racking up a bunch of gunpods means you've got a very limited range of at most a few kilometers which puts you at the Inbit's nonexistent mercy.


ShadowLogan wrote:
-they could (potentially) redirect suitable sized asteroids or comets to act as a bombardment mechanism instead of beam weapons

As popular as this idea is in science fiction, this is actually a ridiculously inefficient and time-consuming way to strike a surface target.

For your amusement, here is a wonderful in-universe explanation of why this is a bad idea from the Warhammer 40,000 universe via the old White Dwarf magazine.


ShadowLogan wrote:
=if they have Rail Gun technology, they could also produce mass drivers to be used as weapons (is the Legoiss 2nd Gunpod in the combo image with the wing hardpoints identified? I know I've seen it portrayed as a Gauss Cannon at robotech research fansite)

AFAIK, said weapon is never identified in any Genesis Climber MOSPEADA publication.

This is probably within the realm of possibility for them as a lunar installation, though it would probably exceed what a ship could support due to the immense power requirements and size.


ShadowLogan wrote:
-build and launch "rods from god" from the Moon.

This is probably well within what they could achieve, but they're imprecise as all get-out.


ShadowLogan wrote:
-at a Earth-Sun Lagrange point construct a giant solar shield(s) to block sunlight from reaching Earth (granted Inbit biology it probably do more harm to natives than the aliens)
-construct basically a giant magnifying glass to "burn the ants" (Germans looked at in WWII, a 9km^2 facility at 8,200km altitude. A size that should be doable for them given space station we see in still shots)

These are both well outside what human technology is capable of in MOSPEADA, with the outer solar system colonies being only barely self-sufficient thanks to the influx of refugees from Earth and/or their resource situations... unless they built an asteroid habitat and towed it to the construction location, which runs into the problems outlined in "Rocks are not free".


ShadowLogan wrote:
Seto wrote:
This becomes a bit of an adaptation-induced plot hole if we consider the Robotech setting, where humanity has access to things like beam weapons capable of precision bombardment at ranges exceeding a light second and it somehow never occurs to any strategist in the military's employ to install one or more batteries of those guns on the moon and use them to bombard Invid ships and surface targets with impunity.

One which might be explainable:
-Invid Force Fields (we know they have them, though this requires defining how they interact), so then what do you target the FoL fields, human popluation centers, the oceans, etc

They're unlikely to be THAT durable...and the really powerful energy shields in Robotech still have a limit to the punishment they can take before they fail (explosively) and they weren't depicted as common fixtures in the show. Alternatively, just raze the surrounding landscape and keep the Invid bottled up in their hives until they starve or surrender.


ShadowLogan wrote:
-Weapons of this caliber eat up too much Protoculture for the UEEF to sanction their use (which by 2044 has 1year supply left per TSC).

Didn't stop 'em from having a reflex cannon on the SDF-3 for two decades... or from using Zentradi ships to bombard around the three mounds to bury the wreck of the SDF-1.

They didn't have a fuel shortage until the SDF-3 disappeared (again), that one year of protoculture is their strategic reserve.


ShadowLogan wrote:
-Invid "Jamming" Technology reduces the effectiveness (we know the Invid can jam communications either intentionally or unintentionally, setting precedent for them to have other jamming capabilities)

Noise jamming a microwave radio is as low-tech as jamming gets... that sets a pretty poor precedent for the idea of them having other jamming technologies, and even if they do it's rather difficult if not technically impossible to jam a LIDAR array or a good old fashioned optical camera.


ShadowLogan wrote:
-located on the lunar surface gets into Grand Cannon limited firing arcs, (if the Invid could travel to the Moon they could go with a longer trajectory to bring them in at an angle the guns wouldn't be able to track assuming you don't setup for global coverage)

"If the Invid can travel to the moon" is a big if, given that they've essentially either ignored or been unable to strike at the UEEF's moon base despite it being used as a staging area for two prior major fleets that attacked Earth shortly after. The limited arc of fire is a fair point, but with the Invid hives mostly situated in latitudes favorable to agriculture and near or in major conurbations, this isn't all that much of an issue. (Potentially a non-issue if the Zentradi had access to beam turrets that were "bendy beam" capable the way they did in the OSM... set a ring of 'em around the moon and let 'em focus fire by bending beams to converge on a target.)


ShadowLogan wrote:
-If this was employed how long before the Invid start imitating those weapon systems (we know the Invid like to imitate other forms and apparently technology given the Invid Overlord Veritech) and counter attacking (with their PC supplies AND ability to setup shop anywhere on Earth they could have a ring going all the way around allowing them to attack the Moon sites 24/7)

Their ability or interest in imitating technology seems to be pretty limited in the series, and the UEEF would have eyes in the sky to spot construction sites for such weapons and thus have the drop on any such attempt at a counterattack.


ShadowLogan wrote:
-Invid could adopt "mobile" Hive designs that move with the rotation of the Earth (always staying out of the line of fire as they move) giving the Moon base nothing to shoot at
-UEEF sensors aren't up to the task of providing required targeting data (they had to use Shadow Fighters for recon patrol in TSC, suggesting sensors might not be up to the task), though why the UEEF wasn't able to salvage such tech from the Zentreadi to go with their Zentreadi beam weapons is an issue (almost like the UEEF is trying to purge itself of alien influences as much as possible).

The Invid never display anywhere near this level of technical proficiency... creating what amounts to a mobile city block (never mind a hive like Reflex Point being the size of several counties) is a huge engineering task that's probably flat impossible given the weight that'd impose on the terrain, and again the UEEF's sky eye view of Invid construction and the ability to focus fire on it means that they can forestall the problem by blowing it up before it's even finished. (If it flies, there's the additional potential for abuse in bombarding it until it crashes and sinks into the ocean.)


ShadowLogan wrote:
At Point-K Lancer suggests the team/group might be able to recover reflex weapons (generic term, nothing specific like Beam, Cannon, Missile, Warhead, etc), so limiting it to strictly the SDF-1 type of Main Gun implied:

Earlier usage in the show meant pretty much any protoculture-powered weapon... which makes this an odd case of redundancy, like saying "gunpowder firearms" or "Inspector Morse Detective".


ShadowLogan wrote:
-Syncro-cannons are also potentially easier to produce (no twin boom).

Whether the twin boom design is actually necessary is debatable, given some Robotech Masters weapons demonstrated in the series.


ShadowLogan wrote:
-Precesion strikes, the S-C doesn't have the "wash" like a R-C is shown to have which would allow it to be used much closer to friendly troops (ex. you could fire S-Cs through your fleet formation's gaps, not so much with a R-C), granted you probably still don't want to be near the impact site of such an attack

Granted, but you don't use a weapon like that close to your own troops... you use a gun like that to kill the everloving hell out of enemy targets at long range, as demonstrated in the series.


ShadowLogan wrote:
-Force Field Disruption (if S-Cs can turn an Invid Force Field into swiss cheese, but R-Cs well we don't have an example of R-C on Force Fields do we in RT IINM suggesting a R-C isn't as effective against them)

It's likely, given what we see of other barrier tech, that those force fields could be beaten down with raw firepower... or made to overload with potentially fatal consequences for the hive itself.

_________________
Macross2.net - Home of the Macross Mecha Manual

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:45 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 6338
Location: WI
RE: GCM
The point is not the degree of practicality that I am considering merely weather they are technically capable of executing such an action. There may be reasons to go with one route over another.

RE: UEEF Zentreadi Beam Canons & Syncro-Cannons
Getting a nice neat tidy explanation is probably not going to be workable with what is available for an in-universe RT explanation. Though we have statements (AotSC pg141) about why Syncro-Cannons replaced Reflex Cannons (efficient, scalable, rate of fire basically).

Seto wrote:
If the Invid can travel to the moon" is a big if,

It actually is not a big IF (for RT, GCM it would be AFAIK). Check out RT.com's Infopedia (and repeated in AotSC pg139) and the Range of the Invid Carrier "Range: Sublight - Earth-Lunar transit capability." 2E PB RPG just limits it to "Sub-light" in space (1E PB RPG doesn't address it directly). So we know they CAN technologically speaking, meaning we are dealing with some level of mental aspect driving this outcome to ignore the Moon (weather that would remain the case if the Moon started bombarding them directly instead of use as a staging ground...)

EDIT: I trimmed the post down.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:26 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 am
Posts: 5241
Location: New Frontier Shipyard, Earth-Moon L5
Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
ShadowLogan wrote:
RE: GCM
The point is not the degree of practicality that I am considering merely weather they are technically capable of executing such an action. There may be reasons to go with one route over another.

WRT practicality vs. possibility, in Genesis Climber MOSPEADA the former may dictate the latter in many cases because Mars colony and the other colonies that had won their independence from Earth's government in the previous decades were somewhat short of resources due to the massive influx of refugees fleeing the Inbit invasion of Earth. Something the colonists could achieve if given infinite time and resources is only technically possible, and may not fit at all into the scope of what was actually possible for the colonial forces in their present resource-strapped, overpopulated state.



ShadowLogan wrote:
RE: UEEF Zentreadi Beam Canons & Syncro-Cannons
Getting a nice neat tidy explanation is probably not going to be workable with what is available for an in-universe RT explanation. Though we have statements (AotSC pg141) about why Syncro-Cannons replaced Reflex Cannons (efficient, scalable, rate of fire basically).

The problem with synchro cannons is that that efficiency, scalability, and increased rate of fire comes at a massive decrease in actual battlefield potential. It's like turning in your M72 LAW for a M1911 pistol in .45ACP. Yeah, you can carry more individual shots but you've sacrificed all stopping power for it. Unless you get fantastically lucky, that .45ACP round isn't going to stop much.

Even a direct hit with a state-of-the-art synchro cannon is no guarantee of scoring a kill, as witnessed by the Icarus's attack on the Tokugawa in Prelude. Reflex cannons can sink an enemy ship even with a near miss, and even the light warship turrets seem to have every bit as much stopping power as a synchro cannon given their ability to shoot clean through ships a light second away.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Seto wrote:
If the Invid can travel to the moon" is a big if,

It actually is not a big IF (for RT, GCM it would be AFAIK). Check out RT.com's Infopedia (and repeated in AotSC pg139) and the Range of the Invid Carrier "Range: Sublight - Earth-Lunar transit capability." 2E PB RPG just limits it to "Sub-light" in space (1E PB RPG doesn't address it directly). So we know they CAN technologically speaking, meaning we are dealing with some level of mental aspect driving this outcome to ignore the Moon (weather that would remain the case if the Moon started bombarding them directly instead of use as a staging ground...)

In theory, yes... but in practice?

Invid troops don't really think for themselves, so what's stopping them from launching an invasion of the moon and preventing further invasions by blowing up the base where those troops assemble to attack Earth? Is the Regess not actually capable of controlling her troops at that great a distance? Does the bio-energy power source beamed to them from the hives fail at that range?

Even then, the Invid have a finite number of ships and troops to throw at the moon... and the troops based there would, depending on how generous we are about the ship's stated speed, have over a day or possibly as much as two and a half days to target and sink incoming Invid ships before being in any danger of coming under attack. That's an awfully long time to target and pick off the Invid's transports.

_________________
Macross2.net - Home of the Macross Mecha Manual

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:50 am
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 6338
Location: WI
Seto wrote:
Even a direct hit with a state-of-the-art synchro cannon is no guarantee of scoring a kill, as witnessed by the Icarus's attack on the Tokugawa in Prelude. Reflex cannons can sink an enemy ship even with a near miss, and even the light warship turrets seem to have every bit as much stopping power as a synchro cannon given their ability to shoot clean through ships a light second away.

I can point to two instances in Episode 36 where the BFG Reflex Cannon shots don't disintegrate their target (Z-Gunboat vs "SDF-2" and SDF-1 vs Z-Gunboat). So even Reflex Cannons are not 100% guarantee of scoring an instant kill, I don't dispute that the state of the respective cannons might have played a role in the outcome but it still shows they aren't any different in this regard.

It's probably worth considering 3things w/re to the scene in Prelude:
1. the Tok. was executing an evasive maneuver so it might only have taken a glancing blow
2. the scale of the Syncro-Cannon on the Shim. might not be up to the task of destroying a Tok. Could the Beta's S-C (or even the hover vehicle in Ep83) destroy a capital ship?
3. Edwards was "playing games" with them (initial scene in Hive with Edwards and Grant has that vibe IMHO)

Seto wrote:
Invid troops don't really think for themselves, so what's stopping them from launching an invasion of the moon and preventing further invasions by blowing up the base where those troops assemble to attack Earth? Is the Regess not actually capable of controlling her troops at that great a distance? Does the bio-energy power source beamed to them from the hives fail at that range?

Even then, the Invid have a finite number of ships and troops to throw at the moon... and the troops based there would, depending on how generous we are about the ship's stated speed, have over a day or possibly as much as two and a half days to target and sink incoming Invid ships before being in any danger of coming under attack. That's an awfully long time to target and pick off the Invid's transports.


That is based on the 2E RPG speed, officially HG doesn't have a speed listed (for any of the capital ships in the Infopedia) to work out a transit time. So on the one hand in the RPG-verse yes transit time could be a factor, but in RT-proper its a bit less defined.

We also have to consider how different are the Regis and Regents Invid factions (aside from leadership, use of Inorganics, and the Scorpion ship). The Regent was able to run a multiple world Invid Occupation with both live Invid and Inorganics AND had Space Fold Technology on at least one ship, so unless the Regis Invid are fundamentally different "range" doesn't seem like its going to be an issue (now if we toss out Sentinels....).

It is probably also worth considering that the Regis might employ the "Phoenix" travel method to go from Earth to Luna and hit ALUCE (and other potential lunar facilities) like the Invid are shown invading Earth with a contingent of Invid.

As Point-K shows, taking size statement at face value, the Invid could crush a base with 2000veritechs (non-cyclones presumably) and 6000 soldiers (IIRC there aren't any Invid among the wreakage at Point K). They also crushed 21st MD (w/losses we know occurred), which is approaching Point-K strength levels IINM going off Animation counts and official RT troop size. We don't kon how ALUCE compares in troop size, but for it to be "safe" it would have to be bigger than the size of Point-K (give the layout change from TRM to TSC, ALUCE's vulnerability to attack likely also changed over time).

These aspects lead me to think that the Regis not attacking the Moon is more of her thinking process when it comes to tactics/strategy rather than any technical limitation. To use a historical analogy, McAruther in the Korean War wanted to bomb China (technically possible), but was prevented by higher ups (thinking process was to keep the conflict limited and contained).


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:24 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 am
Posts: 5241
Location: New Frontier Shipyard, Earth-Moon L5
Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
ShadowLogan wrote:
I can point to two instances in Episode 36 where the BFG Reflex Cannon shots don't disintegrate their target (Z-Gunboat vs "SDF-2" and SDF-1 vs Z-Gunboat). So even Reflex Cannons are not 100% guarantee of scoring an instant kill, I don't dispute that the state of the respective cannons might have played a role in the outcome but it still shows they aren't any different in this regard.

Granted, reflex cannons work about as well as synchro cannons when they're running underpowered, are in dire need of repair, and have been dropped from orbit a few times... but that isn't exactly a representative sample of a reflex cannon's regular performance.


ShadowLogan wrote:
It's probably worth considering 3things w/re to the scene in Prelude:
1. the Tok. was executing an evasive maneuver so it might only have taken a glancing blow
2. the scale of the Syncro-Cannon on the Shim. might not be up to the task of destroying a Tok. Could the Beta's S-C (or even the hover vehicle in Ep83) destroy a capital ship?
3. Edwards was "playing games" with them (initial scene in Hive with Edwards and Grant has that vibe IMHO)

1. The Tokugawa may have been taking evasive action, but she still sustained a centerline hit that completely cored her drive section... somehow WITHOUT causing the reflex furnace to blow up as reflex furnaces are wont to do at the slightest provocation. When your one-shot ship-killing weapon firing at full power is unequal to the task of sinking an enemy ship despite a direct hit to a part of the ship that's Made Of Explodium, it's time to go get a different one-shot kill weapon because you've been gypped.
2. From RTSC, it doesn't appear to be significantly less powerful than the synchro cannon on the SDF-4... neither of which is capable of inflicting any noticeable damage on enemy ships (or hitting them, to be honest).
3. Given that the Icarus attacked the canonically useless-in-a-fight Tokugawa with a weapon intended (on paper) to one-shot ships, he seems to have been having an honest try at killing all the Tokugawa's crew and fell back on "join me after I wax poetic about my evil plan" after the attack unexpectedly resulted in survivors stranded on Optera.



ShadowLogan wrote:
That is based on the 2E RPG speed, officially HG doesn't have a speed listed (for any of the capital ships in the Infopedia) to work out a transit time.

It's all we've got... and Earth-Lunar transit capability just means the physical ability to make the trip without regard to time. It could do it in a day, a week, a month... as long as it's capable of it on paper.



ShadowLogan wrote:
We also have to consider how different are the Regis and Regents Invid factions (aside from leadership, use of Inorganics, and the Scorpion ship). The Regent was able to run a multiple world Invid Occupation with both live Invid and Inorganics AND had Space Fold Technology on at least one ship, so unless the Regis Invid are fundamentally different "range" doesn't seem like its going to be an issue (now if we toss out Sentinels....).

The Regent, at least in the old comics, had a space fleet the Regess didn't have... whether that still exists in the post-reboot canon is anyone's guess.



ShadowLogan wrote:
It is probably also worth considering that the Regis might employ the "Phoenix" travel method to go from Earth to Luna and hit ALUCE (and other potential lunar facilities) like the Invid are shown invading Earth with a contingent of Invid.

But the UEEF can't base strategic decisions on out-of-context knowledge... they didn't know she could even DO that until she legged it at the end of the war, and based on the narration it seems to take rather a lot of power so it's not something she can do casually either.



ShadowLogan wrote:
As Point-K shows, taking size statement at face value, the Invid could crush a base with 2000veritechs (non-cyclones presumably) and 6000 soldiers (IIRC there aren't any Invid among the wreakage at Point K). They also crushed 21st MD (w/losses we know occurred), which is approaching Point-K strength levels IINM going off Animation counts and official RT troop size. We don't kon how ALUCE compares in troop size, but for it to be "safe" it would have to be bigger than the size of Point-K (give the layout change from TRM to TSC, ALUCE's vulnerability to attack likely also changed over time).

The Invid were able to crush those forces because those forces fought the Invid on the Invid's own terms... at ultra-short (visual) ranges, in environments where maneuverability was extremely limited, allowing the Invid to leverage their one and only advantage: numerical superiority. Those forces didn't have artillery support, or any kind of long-range defensive or offensive capability.



ShadowLogan wrote:
These aspects lead me to think that the Regis not attacking the Moon is more of her thinking process when it comes to tactics/strategy rather than any technical limitation. To use a historical analogy, McAruther in the Korean War wanted to bomb China (technically possible), but was prevented by higher ups (thinking process was to keep the conflict limited and contained).

Given that her troops spastically attack any non-authorized protoculture user, it makes no sense that she'd ignore a massive enemy force on her doorstep when she's content to send endless troops to round up a double handful of jackasses with laser rifles.

_________________
Macross2.net - Home of the Macross Mecha Manual

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:00 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 6338
Location: WI
Seto wrote:
1. The Tokugawa may have been taking evasive action, but she still sustained a centerline hit that completely cored her drive section... somehow WITHOUT causing the reflex furnace to blow up as reflex furnaces are wont to do at the slightest provocation. When your one-shot ship-killing weapon firing at full power is unequal to the task of sinking an enemy ship despite a direct hit to a part of the ship that's Made Of Explodium, it's time to go get a different one-shot kill weapon because you've been gypped.
2. From RTSC, it doesn't appear to be significantly less powerful than the synchro cannon on the SDF-4... neither of which is capable of inflicting any noticeable damage on enemy ships (or hitting them, to be honest).
3. Given that the Icarus attacked the canonically useless-in-a-fight Tokugawa with a weapon intended (on paper) to one-shot ships, he seems to have been having an honest try at killing all the Tokugawa's crew and fell back on "join me after I wax poetic about my evil plan" after the attack unexpectedly resulted in survivors stranded on Optera.


1. It wasn't a centerline hit. The depicted impact in Prelude shows it striking off center (left, in some respects a carbon copy of Carptenter's ship taking a hit in TRM), later shots of the ship during re-entry show it missing practically 1/3 of the ship. The Tok. could have some safety feature to prevent the RF from exploding (or such that it channels the blast).
3. I disagree, yes there is the scene in the Hive with meeting survivors, but Edwards wasn't in any hurry to finish off the ship later after one-shoting the Invid Flagship with the Regent on it. That would add weight to the idea he is "playing games". Sure he could be trying to make the best of the situation, but even Edwards would realize that while the Tok. itself isn't much of a danger the ~1000 mecha (presumably non-cyclone) it carries could be if they are allowed to deploy. Capturing the ship (even putting it in an out-of commission state) could provide him with supplies (parts and ammo for shadow fighters) and possibly an influx of new personnel, the information in the ships computer banks would likely also be valuable.

Seto wrote:
It's all we've got... and Earth-Lunar transit capability just means the physical ability to make the trip without regard to time. It could do it in a day, a week, a month... as long as it's capable of it on paper.

I agree, but at the same time E-L transit times for other NG-era ships IIRC aren't exactly short either as the animation suggests they should be (then again if converting Palladium Space Speed to realistic numbers by turning Space Mach into Miles Per Second...)

Seto wrote:
The Regent, at least in the old comics, had a space fleet the Regess didn't have... whether that still exists in the post-reboot canon is anyone's guess.

The Calmship makes up part of the Regent's Space Fleet. Sentinels even grants the Regis her own "Flagship" to travel around in. How that applies to current canon is anyone's guess as you said, but if the Regent has Fold Capable ships then it is possible the Regis does to (they both share Invid Scout/Trooper/Solider mecha designs to, plus the Calmship and "Brain") though we know the Regent uses designs (Inorganics, Red Enforcer, Scorpion ship) the Regis doesn't for some reason it could be she doesn't have the technology, but its also possible she doesn't use them for other reasons or we just aren't shown them in use.

Seto wrote:
But the UEEF can't base strategic decisions on out-of-context knowledge... they didn't know she could even DO that until she legged it at the end of the war, and based on the narration it seems to take rather a lot of power so it's not something she can do casually either.


I agree it can take a lot of power, but the power aspect could deal with traveling to the world in question she mentions. As for not knowing about it the UEEF was present for the invasion in 2031 (as seen in L&W comic and LLA OVA with their hardware present), even if we just go with ASC using UEEF hardware they could have gotten information on the invasion from ALUCE (or other Lunar observation posts) or other evacuees or even SSL itself. To say the UEEF wouldn't have know about how the Invid Regis attacked Earth seems unlikely, but we know the Invid Invasion of Earth in 2031 prompted the UEEF to move SSL (AotSC pg42) from where ever it was in TRM-era (somewhere in the Solar System) to deep space. Even if they don't connect the Phoenix to the Regis proper, they know the Invid at Earth have this capability of travel.

Seto wrote:
it makes no sense that she'd ignore a massive enemy force on her doorstep

That is human though process though, the Regis is technically an alien so her thought process may differ. ~250,000miles might not qualify as "on her doorstep" from her POV. The size of the ALUCE garrison might also not qualify as "massive" either since we don't know the composition of said troops (for all we know ALUCE could have been shut down or given just a skeleton caretaker staff and only recently reactivated given SSL was moved). Now if we are considering her response to have beam weapon attacks coming from the Moon I'm sure her approach will change.

We don't really know how large the forces at ALUCE are before 2044 and the influx of Shadow equipped forces, it isn't like 21st or 10th MD staged from the Moon, they arrived from Deep Space via Fold. AotSC also states that ALUCE is out of her line of sight being on the farside of the Moon (prior to the Soviet Luna 3 mission in 1959, human knowledge was a big blank) near the terminator line (depending on specifics, while the Moon is tidally locked keeping one side facing Earth permanently, libration allows 59% to be visible).


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:30 pm
  

User avatar
Wanderer

Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:40 am
Posts: 85
ShadowLogan wrote:
3. I disagree, yes there is the scene in the Hive with meeting survivors, but Edwards wasn't in any hurry to finish off the ship later after one-shoting the Invid Flagship with the Regent on it. That would add weight to the idea he is "playing games". Sure he could be trying to make the best of the situation, but even Edwards would realize that while the Tok. itself isn't much of a danger the ~1000 mecha (presumably non-cyclone) it carries could be if they are allowed to deploy. Capturing the ship (even putting it in an out-of commission state) could provide him with supplies (parts and ammo for shadow fighters) and possibly an influx of new personnel, the information in the ships computer banks would likely also be valuable.


For all we know, Edwards was not the most stable of characters. So while there is the distinct possibility that he was "playing games", and surfing on his bruised ego trip about Minmei, Fokker / Hunter & all; there exist also a possibility that he was sufficiently crazed, by his contact with the Tirol Invid Brain, so as to not be totally conscious of the consequences of his actions. More angrily reacting to the situation than planning in any way, if you wish.
Now, while it is true that "Prelude to Shadow Chronicle" doesn't necessarily canonize "The sentinels" either in comics or novel form... Its ending is sufficiently close to tell that the Edwards shown was still profoundly affected in his ability to lead with any competence.
Despite his pro-humanity reasoning... the only thing probably keeping his Ghost Squadron by his side at this point.

_________________
On the wrong forum, 30 years too late...


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:59 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 am
Posts: 5241
Location: New Frontier Shipyard, Earth-Moon L5
Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
ShadowLogan wrote:
1. It wasn't a centerline hit. The depicted impact in Prelude shows it striking off center (left, in some respects a carbon copy of Carptenter's ship taking a hit in TRM), later shots of the ship during re-entry show it missing practically 1/3 of the ship.

It didn't go directly down the centerline of the entire ship, but it definitely hit center mass of the drive section... a section of the ship established repeatedly to be as prone to exploding as a box of party snaps.


ShadowLogan wrote:
The Tok. could have some safety feature to prevent the RF from exploding (or such that it channels the blast).

The omission of such a protective measure on every ship made before and since would be a pretty profound argument that that ain't it...


ShadowLogan wrote:
3. I disagree, yes there is the scene in the Hive with meeting survivors, but Edwards wasn't in any hurry to finish off the ship later after one-shoting the Invid Flagship with the Regent on it. That would add weight to the idea he is "playing games". Sure he could be trying to make the best of the situation, but even Edwards would realize that while the Tok. itself isn't much of a danger the ~1000 mecha (presumably non-cyclone) it carries could be if they are allowed to deploy. Capturing the ship (even putting it in an out-of commission state) could provide him with supplies (parts and ammo for shadow fighters) and possibly an influx of new personnel, the information in the ships computer banks would likely also be valuable.

This doesn't logically follow... for much the same reason as before, you're assuming the characters possess out of context knowledge like we do.

Edwards had literally no reason to expect that the ship would be carrying anything usable to him, since he believed that he and Dr. Zand had destroyed his research on shadow technology and all of the specs for things like the shadow fighters. Likewise, he would have had no expectation that its crew would willingly join his cause (and he acknowledges as much in his villain speech in the comic). The idea that they have usable intelligence is pretty silly too, since he'd only been gone a year and there was no reason to suspect the UEEF would make any significant strides in their war with the Invid as he believed he'd wiped out the trump card that was his shadow technology research.


ShadowLogan wrote:
I agree, but at the same time E-L transit times for other NG-era ships IIRC aren't exactly short either as the animation suggests they should be (then again if converting Palladium Space Speed to realistic numbers by turning Space Mach into Miles Per Second...)

To be entirely fair, the only time Earth-Lunar transit times are depicted as short is in Shadow Chronicles... where the moon is improperly animated as if it were only a few thousand kilometers from Earth instead of over a light second away.


ShadowLogan wrote:
The Calmship makes up part of the Regent's Space Fleet. Sentinels even grants the Regis her own "Flagship" to travel around in. How that applies to current canon is anyone's guess as you said, but if the Regent has Fold Capable ships then it is possible the Regis does to (they both share Invid Scout/Trooper/Solider mecha designs to, plus the Calmship and "Brain") though we know the Regent uses designs (Inorganics, Red Enforcer, Scorpion ship) the Regis doesn't for some reason it could be she doesn't have the technology, but its also possible she doesn't use them for other reasons or we just aren't shown them in use.

Whether the old explanation still holds, it was originally that she didn't possess that technology because her mindset was geared towards evolution rather than technological dominance.


ShadowLogan wrote:
As for not knowing about it the UEEF was present for the invasion in 2031 (as seen in L&W comic and LLA OVA with their hardware present), even if we just go with ASC using UEEF hardware they could have gotten information on the invasion from ALUCE (or other Lunar observation posts) or other evacuees or even SSL itself. To say the UEEF wouldn't have know about how the Invid Regis attacked Earth seems unlikely, but we know the Invid Invasion of Earth in 2031 prompted the UEEF to move SSL (AotSC pg42) from where ever it was in TRM-era (somewhere in the Solar System) to deep space. Even if they don't connect the Phoenix to the Regis proper, they know the Invid at Earth have this capability of travel.

There's a good deal of evidentiary distance between knowing that the Invid are capable of interstellar teleportation on such a massive scale and believing they can exercise such an ability casually. The UEEF's own experience with the immense energy requirements of interstellar travel would naturally predispose them to (correctly) suspect that the Regess lacked the energy to do that on demand.


ShadowLogan wrote:
That is human though process though, the Regis is technically an alien so her thought process may differ.

The Regess has enough familiarity with the very similar mindset and thought process of the Tirolians though, enough to anticipate their actions and discern strategic intent at a glance.


ShadowLogan wrote:
~250,000miles might not qualify as "on her doorstep" from her POV. The size of the ALUCE garrison might also not qualify as "massive" either since we don't know the composition of said troops (for all we know ALUCE could have been shut down or given just a skeleton caretaker staff and only recently reactivated given SSL was moved). Now if we are considering her response to have beam weapon attacks coming from the Moon I'm sure her approach will change.

She'd seen multiple major invasion forces launch from the moon, and if humans can spot fold reactions from light seconds away you can bet she can. Luna's pretty much right next door in space terms, so it'd be pretty silly for her to NOT consider that as "on her doorstep" given how often she's attacked from there.


ShadowLogan wrote:
We don't really know how large the forces at ALUCE are before 2044 and the influx of Shadow equipped forces, it isn't like 21st or 10th MD staged from the Moon, they arrived from Deep Space via Fold. AotSC also states that ALUCE is out of her line of sight being on the farside of the Moon (prior to the Soviet Luna 3 mission in 1959, human knowledge was a big blank) near the terminator line (depending on specifics, while the Moon is tidally locked keeping one side facing Earth permanently, libration allows 59% to be visible).

Even if we don't count the local forces, there have been multiple fleets transiting from there to Earth orbital space.





xunk16 wrote:
For all we know, Edwards was not the most stable of characters. So while there is the distinct possibility that he was "playing games", and surfing on his bruised ego trip about Minmei, Fokker / Hunter & all; there exist also a possibility that he was sufficiently crazed, by his contact with the Tirol Invid Brain, so as to not be totally conscious of the consequences of his actions. More angrily reacting to the situation than planning in any way, if you wish.

That's not really something we have to guess at... Edwards having a screw loose is something that was established almost from the very moment the character's backstory was rewritten to separate him from B.D. Andrews in their adaptation of Megazone 23. The man was so deranged with hatred that he would blatantly rant about his plans to betray his boss while his boss's other subordinates are in earshot.

_________________
Macross2.net - Home of the Macross Mecha Manual

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 12:39 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 6338
Location: WI
Seto wrote:
The omission of such a protective measure on every ship made before and since would be a pretty profound argument that that ain't it.

I would point out that in Ep47 (@~1310) part of the engine block on Carpenter's ship gets destroyed without a chain reaction occurring from a single hit, just like in Prelude. Now the RM ship beam that struck might not have the same power as a Syncro blast, but it provides some support then that either the ship has a design feature that make shots to the side blocks non-critical (miss reflex furnace or another safety feature) or the shot in Prelude was not capable/intended to destroy Grant's Tok. Either explanation works for me.

Seto wrote:
Edwards had literally no reason to expect that the ship would be carrying anything usable to him, since he believed that he and Dr. Zand had destroyed his research on shadow technology and all of the specs for things like the shadow fighters. Likewise, he would have had no expectation that its crew would willingly join his cause (and he acknowledges as much in his villain speech in the comic). The idea that they have usable intelligence is pretty silly too, since he'd only been gone a year and there was no reason to suspect the UEEF would make any significant strides in their war with the Invid as he believed he'd wiped out the trump card that was his shadow technology research.

Edwards has every reason to suspect the ship would be valuable to him in a variety of ways as I mentioned. You say he "believed" the research was destroyed, now he can potentially confirm such a "belief". He can find out what if/any counter-Stealth approaches the UEEF is developing to counter him. Edwards has 36mecha (per AotSC that's what a Shim can carry, more might fit if we pack them in) and a single ship, that equipment is going to need replacement parts eventually (Shadow Mecha likely have a high parts commonality with their baseline counter parts, the Tok/Shim compatibility is more questionable as it depends on how standardized UEEF hardware is). It's also worth considering that Edwards could modify the Tok's mecha for Invid operation. From a morale position, the Tok might carry new "entertainment" for his troops (you know new music, videos, etc). There are logical reasons for Edwards to want to capture a UEEF ship (even illogical ones given Edwards isn't completely sane).

Seto wrote:
To be entirely fair, the only time Earth-Lunar transit times are depicted as short is in Shadow Chronicles... where the moon is improperly animated as if it were only a few thousand kilometers from Earth instead of over a light second away.

To be fair to TSC we don't know what the transit time is in TSC, but it is hardly the only "short" example in RT as Ep1-3 (TMS) when Zentreadi ships move from lunar orbit (De-Fold site) to Earth or several examples in TRM saga (off hand, IIRC there might be some indications but I do not recall specifics).

The only time UEEF elements are shown to travel from Luna to Earth is in Ep84-5/TSC (and implied in Ep83). The 21st Mars Division assault in 2042 via dialogue arrives from via Space Fold (dialogue, non-narrator @~2:48 in Ep61), there is no indication if the 10th MD arrives via direct Fold or staged from the Moon in Invasion comic. Other than this we have no other UEEF attack forces that I can think of, so it seems unlikely the Regis would be interested in attacking the Moon (in Invasion comic #1 IIRC the UEEF does not expect the Invid to attack them in space) because it doesn't appear to come into play until 2044, and by 2038 is shown to be capable of repelling an invasion attempt of that given size.

Seto wrote:
There's a good deal of evidentiary distance between knowing that the Invid are capable of interstellar teleportation on such a massive scale and believing they can exercise such an ability casually. The UEEF's own experience with the immense energy requirements of interstellar travel would naturally predispose them to (correctly) suspect that the Regess lacked the energy to do that on demand.

I agree the Energy Phoenix is unlikely, but we know the Invid have some level of short range teleportation (you have Ariel/Marlene in TSC, but also NG-team teleporting into Regis's chamber in Ep84 @~12:29 and then Sera @~1555). Now the UEEF doesn't know about this (AFAIK), but it shows the Invid have capabilities the UEEF do not have (even tossing out TSC). If they have Long and Short range Teleportation, then they might have "medium range".

Seto wrote:
Whether the old explanation still holds, it was originally that she didn't possess that technology because her mindset was geared towards evolution rather than technological dominance.

I have to disagree. She had access to the technology before coming to Earth, at least if Sentinels is being taken into consideration.

While I agree her mindset is geared toward biological evolution, we also see technological evolution occurring (Invid Battloid & VF mecha and their use of missiles, the Invid Enforcer Command Unit is identified as "new" to Scott). If Invasion comic is to be believed the Invid have gone from some type of "parasite" to near human form in terms of biology since the UEEF contact, each Invid "form" appears to use their own mecha design(s) from known examples which means going backward it might also hold true. Invasion-videogame also has variants of the Scout (reused in comic with new weapon type), then it has the new Grappler. So she does seem to consider technology along side biology.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:29 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 am
Posts: 5241
Location: New Frontier Shipyard, Earth-Moon L5
Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
ShadowLogan wrote:
Edwards has every reason to suspect the ship would be valuable to him in a variety of ways as I mentioned.

Not really, no... because they don't make sense in context, require out-of-context knowledge, or are irrelevant.


ShadowLogan wrote:
You say he "believed" the research was destroyed, now he can potentially confirm such a "belief".

This isn't Star Trek. Ships don't sail around the galaxy with a computer library full of every bit of information in the galaxy... especially not warships headed into enemy territory.

Edwards would have no reason to expect to find any information about his, or anyone else's, top secret military R&D work in the databanks of the Tokugawa. You don't send that kind of data into harm's way where it could potentially fall into enemy hands.


ShadowLogan wrote:
He can find out what if/any counter-Stealth approaches the UEEF is developing to counter him.

As above, Edwards would have no reasonable expectation of finding any data about UEEF R&D in the Tokugawa's computers.

Mind you, he would have known right away if they'd developed anything workable because they would've seen him coming and either struck first or avoided his ridiculously telegraphed attack. That his ship, the Icarus, flew right up to the Tokugawa unopposed and sank her with its first shot was proof enough that the UEEF didn't have any anti-Shadow countermeasures.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Edwards has 36mecha (per AotSC that's what a Shim can carry, more might fit if we pack them in) and a single ship, that equipment is going to need replacement parts eventually (Shadow Mecha likely have a high parts commonality with their baseline counter parts, the Tok/Shim compatibility is more questionable as it depends on how standardized UEEF hardware is). It's also worth considering that Edwards could modify the Tok's mecha for Invid operation.

By that point, Edwards had an entire army of Invid inorganics and all of the Invid Regent's facilities on Optera at his disposal. The Icarus and 36 Shadow Fighters are potent by the standards of the day, but not a significant portion of his forces. Presumably the Icarus has the necessary facilities to manufacture replacement parts for its Shadow Fighters and/or Dr. Zand is also capable of manufacturing replacement parts. If he were concerned about capturing the Tokugawa for its equipment he would've disabled and boarded her, not sunk her.


ShadowLogan wrote:
From a morale position, the Tok might carry new "entertainment" for his troops (you know new music, videos, etc).

From where? The UEEF is a society of soldiers, there are no civilians (save Minmei). There are no musicians, no filmmakers, no entertainers of any stripe except for a single washed-up one-hit wonder who's been passive-aggressively stalking her ex... until Edwards kidnapped and tortured her, anyway.


ShadowLogan wrote:
To be fair to TSC we don't know what the transit time is in TSC, but it is hardly the only "short" example in RT as Ep1-3 (TMS) when Zentreadi ships move from lunar orbit (De-Fold site) to Earth or several examples in TRM saga (off hand, IIRC there might be some indications but I do not recall specifics).

They're never stated to actually get much closer to Earth... the ships that the SDF-1 shoots down are closing with Earth, but every shot from the Zentradi or at the Zentradi is said to come from near lunar orbit.


ShadowLogan wrote:
I agree the Energy Phoenix is unlikely, but we know the Invid have some level of short range teleportation [...]

There's that out-of-context knowledge again.

The UEEF didn't know the Invid could DO that until Scott and co. encountered it at the very end of the 3rd Robotech War. It cannot figure into the UEEF's strategic outlook. Until RTSC, they had no evidence it could be done over a distance of more than a few hundred meters and there's no evidence it can be done en masse. Ariel was mostly limited to distances of a few kilometers and groups of only a dozen or so people.


ShadowLogan wrote:
While I agree her mindset is geared toward biological evolution, we also see technological evolution occurring (Invid Battloid & VF mecha and their use of missiles, the Invid Enforcer Command Unit is identified as "new" to Scott). If Invasion comic is to be believed the Invid have gone from some type of "parasite" to near human form in terms of biology since the UEEF contact, each Invid "form" appears to use their own mecha design(s) from known examples which means going backward it might also hold true. Invasion-videogame also has variants of the Scout (reused in comic with new weapon type), then it has the new Grappler. So she does seem to consider technology along side biology.

The series itself generally fails to treat the mecha and pilot as separate entities, and the "evolution" we see in the series includes "evolving" the mecha while the pilot is in it.

_________________
Macross2.net - Home of the Macross Mecha Manual

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:20 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 6338
Location: WI
Seto wrote:
Edwards would have no reason to expect to find any information about his, or anyone else's, top secret military R&D work in the databanks of the Tokugawa. You don't send that kind of data into harm's way where it could potentially fall into enemy hands.

Computer Banks aren't the only source of information he can plumb for information. Officers must have been briefed to some extent on what to expect, something that should be evident given the Tok. started to "dodge" (Grant gave the order, but whether it was apparent to Edwards' forces).

Seto wrote:
As above, Edwards would have no reasonable expectation of finding any data about UEEF R&D in the Tokugawa's computers.

Counter Stealth wouldn't need to be in data form, it would be in hardware form as in "what's this odd sensor" (or sensor setup or software patch doing). His crew wouild know what constitutes "normal" for a Tok when they defect, so they would be looking for changes to indicate new technology.

Seto wrote:
By that point, Edwards had an entire army of Invid inorganics and all of the Invid Regent's facilities on Optera at his disposal. The Icarus and 36 Shadow Fighters are potent by the standards of the day, but not a significant portion of his forces. Presumably the Icarus has the necessary facilities to manufacture replacement parts for its Shadow Fighters and/or Dr. Zand is also capable of manufacturing replacement parts. If he were concerned about capturing the Tokugawa for its equipment he would've disabled and boarded her, not sunk her.

Edwards might have the Inorganics (and Invid), but can he replace losses?

I don't see why the Icarus would have facilities to manufacture replacement parts, Zand would still need necessary materials to setup production.

For all intents and purposes he did disable her (at the point he decides to wait), it isn't until later that it becomes apparent he sunk her. Even if the intend was to sink the Tok, it is 1mile long (approx), so there is a chance it might survive a crash landing (SDF-1, and some Zentreadi ships are of this size and they are known to have survived a crash landing).

Seto wrote:
From where? The UEEF is a society of soldiers, there are no civilians (save Minmei). There are no musicians, no filmmakers, no entertainers of any stripe except for a single washed-up one-hit wonder who's been passive-aggressively stalking her ex... until Edwards kidnapped and tortured her, anyway.


I think even if the UEEF is such a society of soliders, they are going to be the need for diversion. We know they produce guitars (see Invasion), holopendenats, etc. They even have a "news" division (young Scott following Wolf's exploits). They are going to need a way to keep morale up, then you have the issue of the children or what the soldiers do in their down time.

Seto wrote:
They're never stated to actually get much closer to Earth... the ships that the SDF-1 shoots down are closing with Earth, but every shot from the Zentradi or at the Zentradi is said to come from near lunar orbit.

You are forgetting about the landing forces that arrived on Macross Island. Those Re-Entry Pods and Gnerl Fighter Pods didn't teleport to the planet, they had to travel from the DeFold location to Earth. Even in Ep1 & 2 we can see the Zentreadi ships are pretty close to Earth (known size/perspective makes it unlikely they are still in Lunar Orbit).

Seto wrote:
The UEEF didn't know the Invid could DO that until Scott and co. encountered it at the very end of the 3rd Robotech War. It cannot figure into the UEEF's strategic outlook. Until RTSC, they had no evidence it could be done over a distance of more than a few hundred meters and there's no evidence it can be done en masse. Ariel was mostly limited to distances of a few kilometers and groups of only a dozen or so people.


I am not looking at the POV of the UEEF here on why not to attack from the Moon, I am looking at the POV of the Invid to launch an attack on the Moon.

Seto wrote:
The series itself generally fails to treat the mecha and pilot as separate entities, and the "evolution" we see in the series includes "evolving" the mecha while the pilot is in it.

True the Mecha get evolved with the pilot, but that in itself means the technology going into the mecha is evolving also.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:37 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 am
Posts: 5241
Location: New Frontier Shipyard, Earth-Moon L5
Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
ShadowLogan wrote:
Computer Banks aren't the only source of information he can plumb for information. Officers must have been briefed to some extent on what to expect, [...]

Edwards would have had no way to know who was in command of the Tokugawa, or if they were important enough to be briefed on the current state of military R&D.

Edwards seems to have been expecting the UEEF to be unwilling or unable to commit a serious force to pursuing him, so it's doubtful he would've been expecting one of Hunter's inner circle to be the captain of a rear echelon scrapheap like the Tokugawa.


ShadowLogan wrote:
[...] something that should be evident given the Tok. started to "dodge" (Grant gave the order, but whether it was apparent to Edwards' forces).

... taking evasive action is a pretty standard reaction to discovering there's an enemy ship starting an attack run on you, regardless of what it's armed with. Literally all Edwards would glean from that would be that the Tokugawa's commander wasn't completely inexperienced, hopelessly incompetent, and/or suicidal. (Given the Tokugawa's status in the UEEF fleet, the question of if it did in fact have such a captain would've been one that actually needed asking.)


ShadowLogan wrote:
Counter Stealth wouldn't need to be in data form, it would be in hardware form as in "what's this odd sensor" (or sensor setup or software patch doing). His crew wouild know what constitutes "normal" for a Tok when they defect, so they would be looking for changes to indicate new technology.

Edwards wouldn't have had any reason to bother looking, because the Tokugawa's failure to detect and react to the Icarus's attack run until it was close enough to be spotted with the naked eye was proof positive they didn't have anything. He'd literally just watched the Icarus catch the Tokugawa with its proverbial pants down and sink it.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Edwards might have the Inorganics (and Invid), but can he replace losses?

He wouldn't have been planning an invasion of Earth if he couldn't... and potentially not just by building new inorganics, it's possible he could also seize control of active Invid units with the computer he had acquired.


ShadowLogan wrote:
I don't see why the Icarus would have facilities to manufacture replacement parts, Zand would still need necessary materials to setup production.

I'd be absolutely shocked if it didn't. Even the smallest regular warships in modern Navy service have one or more machine shops aboard to fabricate replacement parts for items lost due to wear and tear, battle damage, etc. It's not a new feature either, even light escort ships that fought in the world wars had them. Even back in the age of sail, it was standard practice to carry tools and crew who had woodworking training to manage repairs due to wear and tear or battle damage.


ShadowLogan wrote:
For all intents and purposes he did disable her (at the point he decides to wait), it isn't until later that it becomes apparent he sunk her. Even if the intend was to sink the Tok, it is 1mile long (approx), so there is a chance it might survive a crash landing (SDF-1, and some Zentreadi ships are of this size and they are known to have survived a crash landing).

Alien ships have been known to survive crash landings... humanity's, not so much. Plus the immediate order to abandon ship that the first hit prompted would've made it clear at the outset that he had sunk the Tokugawa beyond any hope of recovery.


ShadowLogan wrote:
I think even if the UEEF is such a society of soliders, they are going to be the need for diversion. We know they produce guitars (see Invasion), holopendenats, etc. They even have a "news" division (young Scott following Wolf's exploits). They are going to need a way to keep morale up, then you have the issue of the children or what the soldiers do in their down time.

Considering we're told flat out there is no career path for anyone outside the military, it's possible there aren't any humans manufacturing these things and they're either items taken from Earth before contact with it was lost or there's some robot factory turning out consumer goods. "News" in this case is basically a declassified intelligence reel broadcast as propaganda, so no need for a dedicated news division. It's possible some entertainment materials are traded for from aliens like the (revolting) liquor Marcus had in RTSC, though Edwards's personnel are even more hardline xenophobes than the average UEEF soldier so it's unlikely they would voluntarily consume that material. (Did I just argue they're hipsters who insist on consuming only prewar entertainment materials from Earth?)


ShadowLogan wrote:
You are forgetting about the landing forces that arrived on Macross Island. Those Re-Entry Pods and Gnerl Fighter Pods didn't teleport to the planet, they had to travel from the DeFold location to Earth. Even in Ep1 & 2 we can see the Zentreadi ships are pretty close to Earth (known size/perspective makes it unlikely they are still in Lunar Orbit).

We're told in dialog they're still in or near lunar orbit, so it's not so unlikely...


ShadowLogan wrote:
I am not looking at the POV of the UEEF here on why not to attack from the Moon, I am looking at the POV of the Invid to launch an attack on the Moon.

That they don't use teleportation to do it would be a pretty sound argument that they can't, given that they react with massive overkill every other time the UEEF presents a threat and even hunt down beaten and defenseless soldiers.


ShadowLogan wrote:
True the Mecha get evolved with the pilot, but that in itself means the technology going into the mecha is evolving also.

Or that a bunch of it isn't technological at all... but rather, biological.

_________________
Macross2.net - Home of the Macross Mecha Manual

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:30 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 2:01 am
Posts: 3728
Location: Nashville.....ish....
Back to 1st Edition I've loved to have a RDF team think the battle is over, just to see the how many Zen infantry have crawled out of their crippled mecha to continue the fight.

_________________
RockJock, holder of the mighty Rune Rock Hammer!


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:17 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 6338
Location: WI
Seto wrote:
... taking evasive action is a pretty standard reaction to discovering there's an enemy ship starting an attack run on you, regardless of what it's armed with. Literally all Edwards would glean from that would be that the Tokugawa's commander wasn't completely inexperienced, hopelessly incompetent, and/or suicidal. (Given the Tokugawa's status in the UEEF fleet, the question of if it did in fact have such a captain would've been one that actually needed asking.)

Except the Icarus's syncro-cannon is supposed to be cloaked by the shadow device (which didn't do anything about the tell tale glow) so the UEEF would have very limited time to know if it was starting an attack run.

The Tok. did detect the Icarus in orbit (along w/the N-S warheads) so the UEEF seems to have some counter-stealth sensors (the shadow devive would block radar return). That alone makes the Tok. valuable in an information sense (if he knows how they detect the ship, a counter-counter-stealth approach could be used).

Seto wrote:
He wouldn't have been planning an invasion of Earth if he couldn't... and potentially not just by building new inorganics, it's possible he could also seize control of active Invid units with the computer he had acquired.

Inorganics (at least the known types) are all ground troops AFAIK, he still needs to be able to get them onto the ground. He does have control of the Regent's Invid, but we have no idea if the Regis's Invid are even compatible with the Regent's computer, or the range he would have to bring his own computer in order to hijack the Regis's Invid, or how the Regis would react to the appearance of the Regent's Invid in her space, etc.

The fact that the UEEF sent in a single Tokugawa suggests the Regent's forces aren't that numerous, even if they are supported by a UEEF Shim.

Seto wrote:
I'd be absolutely shocked if it didn't. Even the smallest regular warships in modern Navy service have one or more machine shops aboard to fabricate replacement parts for items lost due to wear and tear, battle damage, etc. It's not a new feature either, even light escort ships that fought in the world wars had them. Even back in the age of sail, it was standard practice to carry tools and crew who had woodworking training to manage repairs due to wear and tear or battle damage.

However there is a limit to what those ships can fabricate. I just can't see the ship having the machineshop being at the level of being able to replace every part/component needed. That just seems equally as unlikely as having no machineshop (for a ship the size of the Shim-class, Tok/SDF-1 maybe). It's probably also worth remembering than the Icarus wasn't complete (per dialogue in Prelude by Hunter when it launches), further supporting the idea that they could need the Tok. for materials.

Seto wrote:
Alien ships have been known to survive crash landings... humanity's, not so much. Plus the immediate order to abandon ship that the first hit prompted would've made it clear at the outset that he had sunk the Tokugawa beyond any hope of recovery.

Human ships you refer to though are much smaller than the Tokugawa (only the SDF-# and Ark Angel are known to be bigger). And NG-era ships seen suggest there is still salvageable material onboard (though explored out of seen ratio isn't the best).

Seto wrote:
We're told in dialog they're still in or near lunar orbit, so it's not so unlikely...

Except you are still forgeting the Zentreadi landing force that invaded Macross Island in Ep1-3, the one the VFs engage an air-battle with vs Gnerls in Ep1 above the island, the Landing Craft submerged in the ocean in Ep2-3 and the Battlepods that invaded the island (some of which hitched a ride w/the SDF-1 fold in ep3). How long did those forces take to travel from Lunar Orbit to the surface (and then back for the recall)? Even if we go with the dialogue that the fleet proper stayed in lunar orbit, some elements did approach Earth and make it to ground.

Seto wrote:
That they don't use teleportation to do it would be a pretty sound argument that they can't, given that they react with massive overkill every other time the UEEF presents a threat and even hunt down beaten and defenseless soldiers.

I am no so sure they can't. They only react with massive overkill when the UEEF gets to close, which is from an Invid POV on what "close" is as opposed to a human POV. And it isn't like the UEEF was staging attacks from the Moon until 2044 by all indication, it is speculation that the Moon was being used for this purpose in 2031-2043 period.

Seto wrote:
Considering we're told flat out there is no career path for anyone outside the military, it's possible there aren't any humans manufacturing these things and they're either items taken from Earth before contact with it was lost or there's some robot factory turning out consumer goods. "News" in this case is basically a declassified intelligence reel broadcast as propaganda, so no need for a dedicated news division. It's possible some entertainment materials are traded for from aliens like the (revolting) liquor Marcus had in RTSC, though Edwards's personnel are even more hardline xenophobes than the average UEEF soldier so it's unlikely they would voluntarily consume that material. (Did I just argue they're hipsters who insist on consuming only prewar entertainment materials from Earth?)

I agree the "news" in quotes is proper as its essentially propaganda, but that means there is a propaganda division in the UEEF. So those people have skills and equipment to produce material for propaganda purposes. The military does have marching bands, so they would have people with musical talents (Lancer as an example) they would have to support and those people could in their down time produce music for consumption (some musical groups even in the civilian world do have day jobs). Lancer's ability to impersonate a woman would suggest that stage/screen acting is something they could do in off hours (or for propaganda/training purposes). There might even be "sports" teams to follow (they likely already have the basic equipment available, though unlikely they would "fix" the matches). Then you have people doing other creative outlets for consumption (writing, art, etc). The UEEF would know they need things like this to keep morale up.

There are a variety of roles the military would also have to takeup logically if they are cut off from civilian support. They need people for food production (no guarantee alien foods are edible), they need people for child care (infants and other young children), teachers for said children (math, language, science, etc). If they have these under "military career path" in the UEEF then it really isn't a stretch for there to be other roles that one might not ordinarily associate with the military, but would exist officially even if it was for "off hours".


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:27 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 am
Posts: 5241
Location: New Frontier Shipyard, Earth-Moon L5
Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
RockJock wrote:
Back to 1st Edition I've loved to have a RDF team think the battle is over, just to see the how many Zen infantry have crawled out of their crippled mecha to continue the fight.

"What're you gonna do? Bleed on me?"



ShadowLogan wrote:
Except the Icarus's syncro-cannon is supposed to be cloaked by the shadow device (which didn't do anything about the tell tale glow) so the UEEF would have very limited time to know if it was starting an attack run.

Unsurprisingly, the entire engagement took place at visual ranges... where the Tokugawa crew could spot the Icarus with the good ol' Mk.I Eyeball.


ShadowLogan wrote:
The Tok. did detect the Icarus in orbit (along w/the N-S warheads) so the UEEF seems to have some counter-stealth sensors (the shadow devive would block radar return). That alone makes the Tok. valuable in an information sense (if he knows how they detect the ship, a counter-counter-stealth approach could be used).

Now, I know Edwards has an artificial eye... but he's not ignorant of the fact that the crew of the Tokugawa would have two working eyeballs under most circumstances and that most ships have a window or two you can look out of. That's not exactly hot new intel. The Tokugawa didn't have counter-stealth sensors, which we know from RTSC don't exist (in human tech anyway, Haydonites presumably have them but didn't share them). They wouldn't have had any issue spotting the neutron-s warheads since their shadow fields are internal only, damping the gravity of the neutronium in the warhead.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Inorganics (at least the known types) are all ground troops AFAIK, he still needs to be able to get them onto the ground.

While we don't see anything of the Regent's own forces except his personal ship, presumably the Regent has other ships of his own parked somewhere... likely in or around his headquarters on Optera.


ShadowLogan wrote:
He does have control of the Regent's Invid, but we have no idea if the Regis's Invid are even compatible with the Regent's computer, or the range he would have to bring his own computer in order to hijack the Regis's Invid, or how the Regis would react to the appearance of the Regent's Invid in her space, etc.

Edwards received key intelligence and technical assistance from the Haydonites, who are experts on the Invid and anti-Invid countermeasures that explicitly intended to have humanity exterminate the Invid for them. It is, thus, VERY doubtful that Edwards' plan would not be eminently workable. We can safely assume that the Regent's computer could seize control of the Regess's Invid, likely at long ranges given that we see computers of this type directing Invid operations over entire Invid hives on Earth that police significant geographic regions. (Assuming he doesn't possess some way to extend the area of control further... which is likely given the Regent would've been more dependent on them than the Regess was.)


ShadowLogan wrote:
The fact that the UEEF sent in a single Tokugawa suggests the Regent's forces aren't that numerous, even if they are supported by a UEEF Shim.

Really, the fact that the UEEF sent a single Tokugawa-class carrier suggests one thing only... Rick Hunter was trying to get Vince Grant killed.

The Tokugawa-class had long since been proven to be a woefully incapable warship hopelessly unsuited to the realities of ship-to-ship combat, which saw it relegated to rear-echelon transport and logistics duties. Its chances of defeating a next-generation escort warship designed to punch WAY above its weight class were effectively zero even before that warship was made invisible to the UEEF's sensors and retrofitted with an anti-warship synchro cannon. They sent a glorified freighter to fight a hostile force that'd fought the entire UEEF to a standstill for two decades and had nearly destroyed the SDF-3 in a single shot and made a mockery of the UEEF Tirol garrison force just a year earlier. It makes no strategic sense.


ShadowLogan wrote:
However there is a limit to what those ships can fabricate. I just can't see the ship having the machineshop being at the level of being able to replace every part/component needed. That just seems equally as unlikely as having no machineshop (for a ship the size of the Shim-class, Tok/SDF-1 maybe). It's probably also worth remembering than the Icarus wasn't complete (per dialogue in Prelude by Hunter when it launches), further supporting the idea that they could need the Tok. for materials.

Edwards and Zand had sufficient resources and manufacturing capability to retrofit the Icarus with shadow technology including a substantial rebuild to replace the ship's bow-mounted missile batteries with a synchro cannon. Replacement parts for their VFs shouldn't be an issue if they can carry that off in short order.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Human ships you refer to though are much smaller than the Tokugawa (only the SDF-# and Ark Angel are known to be bigger). And NG-era ships seen suggest there is still salvageable material onboard (though explored out of seen ratio isn't the best).

The last time we saw a Tokugawa-class crash, she exploded like a cheap Chinese firework... and the there's a big difference between ships that were attacked after reentry (or potentially even after landing) and a ship that fell out of orbit in an uncontrolled fashion.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Except you are still forgeting the Zentreadi landing force that invaded Macross Island in Ep1-3, the one the VFs engage an air-battle with vs Gnerls in Ep1 above the island, the Landing Craft submerged in the ocean in Ep2-3 and the Battlepods that invaded the island (some of which hitched a ride w/the SDF-1 fold in ep3). How long did those forces take to travel from Lunar Orbit to the surface (and then back for the recall)? Even if we go with the dialogue that the fleet proper stayed in lunar orbit, some elements did approach Earth and make it to ground.

Those were much more advanced ships than anything humanity had, so it wouldn't be at all surprising if they could make the trip much faster.


ShadowLogan wrote:
I am no so sure they can't. They only react with massive overkill when the UEEF gets to close, which is from an Invid POV on what "close" is as opposed to a human POV. And it isn't like the UEEF was staging attacks from the Moon until 2044 by all indication, it is speculation that the Moon was being used for this purpose in 2031-2043 period.

In RTSC they intercept the UEEF in high orbit, that's pretty damn far for "close". The moon isn't much farther. There is nothing to suggest Robotech changed the original show's stance that fleets mustered at the moon before attacking Earth. Indeed, we see c.2044 that the moon is still a major military base for mustering assaults on Earth.


ShadowLogan wrote:
I agree the "news" in quotes is proper as its essentially propaganda, but that means there is a propaganda division in the UEEF.

Or that it's just a function of the existing UEEF intelligence arm we see represented in-series... deceptive editing of footage isn't the same as producing all-new media.


ShadowLogan wrote:
The military does have marching bands, so they would have people with musical talents (Lancer as an example) they would have to support and those people could in their down time produce music for consumption (some musical groups even in the civilian world do have day jobs).

Modern militaries do... out of a sense of tradition going back to when musicians were an integral part of old school maneuver warfare. We never see anything analogous in Robotech. The only popular music ever seen with the UEEF out in space is Minmei's thirty year old caterwauling.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Lancer's ability to impersonate a woman would suggest that stage/screen acting is something they could do in off hours (or for propaganda/training purposes).

IIRC, in Robotech this is presented as something he learned from the girl who sheltered him when he landed on Earth (Carla?).

In MOSPEADA, Yellow Belmont was basically a weeb (No, really!) whose crossdressing performer disguise was inspired by his fascination with kabuki theater.


ShadowLogan wrote:
There might even be "sports" teams to follow (they likely already have the basic equipment available, though unlikely they would "fix" the matches).

As a highly mobile assault force, it seems highly unlikely the UEEF's operating environment would make this workable. Those ships are not big, and it seems very doubtful they would have anything like a free internal space big enough for sport.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Then you have people doing other creative outlets for consumption (writing, art, etc). The UEEF would know they need things like this to keep morale up.

Considering we're looking at an entire generation who were born and raised in space knowing only war, the complete absence of this in-series is hardly surprising. What counts as uplifting to people who grew up in space, devoid of civilian culture, in an environment of constant warfare?


ShadowLogan wrote:
There are a variety of roles the military would also have to takeup logically if they are cut off from civilian support. They need people for food production (no guarantee alien foods are edible), they need people for child care (infants and other young children), teachers for said children (math, language, science, etc). If they have these under "military career path" in the UEEF then it really isn't a stretch for there to be other roles that one might not ordinarily associate with the military, but would exist officially even if it was for "off hours".

Many of these can likely be replaced technologically. Some alien foods are clearly edible, though not necessarily pleasing to the human palate, but it's highly likely that most of the food being served to the troops is highly (re)processed synthetic food as was implicitly going on aboard the SDF-1 (explicitly in the original show and its sequels) and many other sci-fi shows.

Education is likely pretty basic, and most basic education can be handled by interactive computer software even today. Knowing to read is essential to be a soldier. Knowing how to interpret poetry isn't.

Basic childcare was likely fobbed off on the medical corps.

_________________
Macross2.net - Home of the Macross Mecha Manual

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:35 am
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 2:01 am
Posts: 3728
Location: Nashville.....ish....
Don't laugh Seto, the Melee Specialist, or whatever they are called in Strike Force could be nasty.

_________________
RockJock, holder of the mighty Rune Rock Hammer!


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:11 am
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:36 pm
Posts: 225
RockJock wrote:
Back to 1st Edition I've loved to have a RDF team think the battle is over, just to see the how many Zen infantry have crawled out of their crippled mecha to continue the fight.


Shouldn't be very many as we can see numerous bullet hole in the back of the armour (exit wounds) of the first zentraedi that Hikaru/Rick killed when he completely unloaded his GU-11 into his battlepod. There also appears to be exit hole in the back of the regult but they magically disappear when the camera angle changes (ah the animation errors you get from hand drawn animation). This would seem to argue that the penetration power of the rounds from a GU-11 are significantly greator than the armour of a regult battlepod.

_________________
May contain peanuts
-warning I saw on a pack of Peanut Butter M&Ms


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:16 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 6338
Location: WI
Seto wrote:
Now, I know Edwards has an artificial eye... but he's not ignorant of the fact that the crew of the Tokugawa would have two working eyeballs under most circumstances and that most ships have a window or two you can look out of. That's not exactly hot new intel. The Tokugawa didn't have counter-stealth sensors, which we know from RTSC don't exist (in human tech anyway, Haydonites presumably have them but didn't share them). They wouldn't have had any issue spotting the neutron-s warheads since their shadow fields are internal only, damping the gravity of the neutronium in the warhead.

Edwards isn't ignorant either of the value the Tok can provide in terms of potential intelligence and materials. Using MkI eye-ball is not what the crew of the Tok used, they had it on monitor screens (some type of camera system was involved).

Seto wrote:
While we don't see anything of the Regent's own forces except his personal ship, presumably the Regent has other ships of his own parked somewhere... likely in or around his headquarters on Optera.

I agree the Regent has more ships, but the Inorganics are very limited in what they can do on approach to Earth until they land is my point. The UEEF at that point had 2 attacks repelled in space, so Edwards will need space capable forces to repel any counter attack.

Seto wrote:
Edwards received key intelligence and technical assistance from the Haydonites, who are experts on the Invid and anti-Invid countermeasures that explicitly intended to have humanity exterminate the Invid for them. It is, thus, VERY doubtful that Edwards' plan would not be eminently workable. We can safely assume that the Regent's computer could seize control of the Regess's Invid, likely at long ranges given that we see computers of this type directing Invid operations over entire Invid hives on Earth that police significant geographic regions. (Assuming he doesn't possess some way to extend the area of control further... which is likely given the Regent would've been more dependent on them than the Regess was.)

While the Haydonites might be experts on the Invid, we know they kept things from the UEEF proper (and likely Edwards).

It's also worth asking "Can Invid even intentionally attack each other?" Even Corg and Sera couldn't harm Ariel/Marlene, and I can't think of a single intentional Invid Friendly Fire incident where the Invid knowingly fired upon one another (Ariel/Marlene as a passenger yes, but the Invid might not know she was there).

It's probably also worth considering too that the Regis Invid have been evolving, and her Invid "brain computer" might have reach incompatibility with the Regent's Invid "brain computer".

Seto wrote:
Really, the fact that the UEEF sent a single Tokugawa-class carrier suggests one thing only... Rick Hunter was trying to get Vince Grant killed.

No it doesn't. The UEEF sent a single "UPGRADED" Tokugawa, though I do agree the Tok. shouldn't have gone it alone. The Tok's capabilities get into strength levels of a task force comprised of Ikazuchis and/or Garfish.

The baseline Tokugawa carries ~1000mecha (that's almost x2 RT-ized Ikazuchi), and host of conventional weapons (beam cannons and missiles). The only advantage the Shim.-class has over the Tok. is its syncro-cannon and shadow systems, and the Syncro-cannon was a retro-fit. In a ship-ship fight, the Tok. essentially outguns the original Shim design (that the UEEF would plan around), especially if it gets the first shots in (it has 16x anti-ship beam weapons, 12 point defense guns, 6x15 missile launchers, and a 15 shot missile launcher with 150 missiles vs the Shim's 1x anti-ship beam weapon, 4x point defense guns, 34x missile launcher, 1x syncro-cannon they would not know about). This doesn't even consider if the Tok. has any mecha with anti-ship missiles (Conbat or Beta for example).

Seto wrote:
Edwards and Zand had sufficient resources and manufacturing capability to retrofit the Icarus with shadow technology including a substantial rebuild to replace the ship's bow-mounted missile batteries with a synchro cannon. Replacement parts for their VFs shouldn't be an issue if they can carry that off in short order.

The Bow wasn't a missile battery AFAIK, Genisis Pits SB says it was a laser cannon though AotSC (pg110-1) says it was a magazine (the missile launchers that are labeled in the artwork are still present). Regardless though Edwards took the time to remodel the front half of the ship, that could have provided some/all of the material to create the Syncro-Cannon (it probably depends on just what is need, what they can do with what was present). Dialogue in Prelude shows it already had Shadow Technology (Vince reports it doesn't show on sensors, even confirmed by Wolf Squadron dialogue during intercept at Tirol in Chapter 1/Volume1).

Seto wrote:
The last time we saw a Tokugawa-class crash, she exploded like a cheap Chinese firework... and the there's a big difference between ships that were attacked after reentry (or potentially even after landing) and a ship that fell out of orbit in an uncontrolled fashion.

Granted, but dialogue before the crash also indicates it was ready to blow at any second. Though technically Prelude doesn't reveal if the ship burnt-up/exploded during re-entry or made it to the ground.

Seto wrote:
In RTSC they intercept the UEEF in high orbit, that's pretty damn far for "close". The moon isn't much farther. There is nothing to suggest Robotech changed the original show's stance that fleets mustered at the moon before attacking Earth. Indeed, we see c.2044 that the moon is still a major military base for mustering assaults on Earth.

The Moon is ~400,000km, or ~1/10th Geo-syncronous orbit which is where "High Orbit" starts. Which presents a pretty big gap.

RT dialogue for 21st MD in Ep61 specifically calls out that the force is traveling via Fold. 10th MD in Invasion doesn't say one-way or another.

Seto wrote:
IIRC, in Robotech this is presented as something he learned from the girl who sheltered him when he landed on Earth (Carla?).

In MOSPEADA, Yellow Belmont was basically a weeb (No, really!) whose crossdressing performer disguise was inspired by his fascination with kabuki theater.

Carla yes, Robotech doesn't really suggest he learned to act from Carla all it suggests is that to survive he had to act like a she (which suggests that female soldiers weren't common). A deeper dive likely depends on the source (LLA-OVA might differ I haven't seen it).

Seto wrote:
As a highly mobile assault force, it seems highly unlikely the UEEF's operating environment would make this workable. Those ships are not big, and it seems very doubtful they would have anything like a free internal space big enough for sport.

It might depend on the sport (and what one qualifies as a sport given modern "e-sports"). I would also think that surface facilities (or orbiting stations) are more likely to have "sports" than ships, ship space likely means multi-purpose areas. The main thing is I think the UEEF is going to have to find something for their soldiers to do during their down time, even modern militaries do this as they aren't engaged in combat 24/7 (and the UEEF doesn't show that it is 24/7 either). We know they have time for dating (Scott/Marlenee-human for example, Lancer fends off "advances" of his CO, etc) which means they are going to have time for other pursuits to.

Seto wrote:
Many of these can likely be replaced technologically. Some alien foods are clearly edible, though not necessarily pleasing to the human palate, but it's highly likely that most of the food being served to the troops is highly (re)processed synthetic food as was implicitly going on aboard the SDF-1 (explicitly in the original show and its sequels) and many other sci-fi shows.

Education is likely pretty basic, and most basic education can be handled by interactive computer software even today. Knowing to read is essential to be a soldier. Knowing how to interpret poetry isn't.

While technology can replace aspects, they still need human supervision for food processing and education. Alien food stuffs might work, but human palates differ individually (allergies, tastes, etc).

Education I think if the UEEF is going to want a well rounded education system for several reasons. 1. to replace scientists and others in R&D. 2. Hunter in the past stated that humans shouldn't allow themselves to become like the Zentreadi 3. to give them some diversions in education they might look forward to 4. to introduce them to "hobbies" for their down time 5. skill transferal


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:38 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 am
Posts: 5241
Location: New Frontier Shipyard, Earth-Moon L5
Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
RockJock wrote:
Don't laugh Seto, the Melee Specialist, or whatever they are called in Strike Force could be nasty.

Only if you're foolish enough to come down there and fight hand to hand. :wink:



camk4evr wrote:
Shouldn't be very many as we can see numerous bullet hole in the back of the armour (exit wounds) of the first zentraedi that Hikaru/Rick killed when he completely unloaded his GU-11 into his battlepod. There also appears to be exit hole in the back of the regult but they magically disappear when the camera angle changes (ah the animation errors you get from hand drawn animation). This would seem to argue that the penetration power of the rounds from a GU-11 are significantly greator than the armour of a regult battlepod.

We're never told which of the half-dozen main types of ammunition was loaded into the gunpod Hikaru's VF-1D was armed with, but given that he sprays that Regult and gets through-and-throughs and not an explosion it seems safe to assume it was probably armor-piercing hard rounds rather than the armor piercing high explosive rounds that were the standard for most of the war. The GU-11A was designed for an enemy with approximately equal armor strength to the VF-1 Valkyrie itself, they didn't expect an invading alien army to consider its troops expendable.

_________________
Macross2.net - Home of the Macross Mecha Manual

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:28 pm
  

User avatar
Adventurer

Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:34 pm
Posts: 405
This thread is too long to read every post and someone may have already mentioned this, but, the Zentraedi and the Invid come from two different anime lines that are not compatible; both were designed to fight a different enemy. Only the Macross saga and what every anime-saga the Invid came from can tell. Robotech, the cartoon was meshed together from different anime-sources.

IMHO: The Zentraedi probably were designed to fight other factions of Zentraedi.

_________________
My enemies ride fast, knowing not, that ride is their last

Image


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:06 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 am
Posts: 5241
Location: New Frontier Shipyard, Earth-Moon L5
Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
Peacebringer wrote:
This thread is too long to read every post and someone may have already mentioned this, but, the Zentraedi and the Invid come from two different anime lines that are not compatible; both were designed to fight a different enemy. Only the Macross saga and what every anime-saga the Invid came from can tell. Robotech, the cartoon was meshed together from different anime-sources.

Everyone knows, yes... that is not news and it's not really a relevant point in Robotech, where they DO coexist in the same setting and are adversaries. Dialog in the Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles canon comic indicates the Zentradi and Invid have fought each other in the past.

Mind you, the actual point wasn't about the Zentradi and Invid so much as it was about the Invid being such a weak foe that they can only present a threat because of adaptation-induced plot holes and a catastrophic failure to grasp basic tactics at the highest levels of the UEEF leadership. So much so, in fact, that the Titan Robotech Remix comic series recently took a cheap shot at the whole topic. In that timeline, development of the Alpha is shut down and its funding redirected to the YF-4 partly due to the advice of a Dana Sterling from the future who successfully advocates for the YF-4 on the basis that the numbers-before-quality philosophy behind the Alpha doesn't work.



Peacebringer wrote:
IMHO: The Zentraedi probably were designed to fight other factions of Zentraedi.

That idea wouldn't really work in Robotech... where the Zentradi were created by the Robotech Masters as the clone army of their newly forged empire.

In Macross, we don't know what the Zentradi were created to fight but they DO fight each other in a way... the Supervision Army being a force made up of brainwashed Zentradi and Protoculture in service to the Protodeviln.

_________________
Macross2.net - Home of the Macross Mecha Manual

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 6:08 am
  

User avatar
Wanderer

Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:40 am
Posts: 85
Seto Kaiba wrote:
So much so, in fact, that the Titan Robotech Remix comic series recently took a cheap shot at the whole topic. In that timeline, development of the Alpha is shut down and its funding redirected to the YF-4 partly due to the advice of a Dana Sterling from the future who successfully advocates for the YF-4 on the basis that the numbers-before-quality philosophy behind the Alpha doesn't work.


Cheap shot, really? I rather thought this was an awesome wink to the kind of battle RT fans seems to have all the time.

Something that canon never truly addresses, but still is in the data given, is the relative sizes of the Invid Mecha Vs VF-1s, YF-4s, and Regults. They don't just have a massive numerical advantage. They are like insects attacking a bigger target. Mens have been known to be fell by swarms of wasps, or even mosquitoes, when there is enough of the bugs. Sure, they seem kinda cheap... But it makes no sense asking one pilot to fight 10 or 12 invids, trying to dismember his/her mecha; when you can build a decent mecha half the size, and thus diminishing as much the number of scouts trying to crack the nut in order to get to the juicy pilot inside. A Mecha that is effectively prevented from manoeuvring correctly will be a liability to itself and its squadron.
And suicide tactics only work in the long run when you do have the numerical advantage.

Someone will probably try and tell that this would never happen... but saying the campaign get longer than anticipated, human and zentraedi mecha will eventually lack missiles. Even temporarily. Making it that much more easier for the Invids to get into CQB. Not even mentioning the clear ambush tactics used around hives and elsewhere.
Plus, the lower invids would be used to manoeuvre their surrogate bodies in tight spaces, on top of each others; much more than the average human or Troodi pilot.

Which brings me to the original explanation for dropping the YF-4s in favour of the more "numerous" and cheaply built Alphas. Not only this would make more missiles on the battlefield at once, it makes the whole process of fast repair and maintenance that much more plausible : for a fleet conceived in the idea of maximized recycling capabilities. Then, you'd have the ranged and guerrilla tactics available to more numerous fighters; allowing reloads aboard ships for half the pilots, while the others still keeps the wave at bay.
On the other hand, the YF-4 was supposed to have problems with its costly maintenance, computerized systems prompt to failure for being over-complicated by the transformation sequence, AND is bigger (which brings the problem mentioned above, plus technically put a bigger drain on fuel because of the weight involved). All in all... It makes sense for the executives to drop the YF-4 in favour of the Alpha. No matter how much the fandom sees them as superior machines (which they are, outside of ever stretching operating times), the reverse is basically asking the one plane that is sure to break, from simple use, to replace a full complement of mecha that a pilot might salvage by himself (Maybe even using simple tools while in a space suit).
RRT tactics goes so far as relegating them [YF-4s] to missions against ships or specific "big guns" typed target. Something that is often hard to find in an invid setup. Saying they would have been thought as useful for the UEEF, would give them a role similar to the VF-1V Vindicator; preventing against possible encounter with leftover Zentreadis yet loyal to the Masters.

Basically, the YF-4s would logically be abandoned for the same reason that would limit the production of a new wave of VF-1s, or better yet, Jotuns.
Especially in the original scorched earth setting.
Why makes this so tragic, in Remix, is that the Earth wasn't scorched as bad. (For all the wrong reasons, but still.)
Something that should technically make the option of better (directly produced as) Jotuns, or a smaller and simpler version of the YF-4s, available in decent numbers. Dana knows this, and is expertly placed to contest what is realistically near-unavoidable.
Especially if they are able to produce to Shadow-Figther status directly.
With this said, fusing the working elements from all three programs (Shadow YF-Alpha) might be a better solution, for new material, than continuously indulging in old and sterile banters about which OSM design was cooler.

For as far as I can tell; the arguments of Dana might also reveal the good times of the Alpha. And there might be arguments about which systems of the YF-4 could be dropped while keeping it superior... Dragging the project in so many paperwork that some might think it too much.
We don't yet know if Remix will reverse history on that one.
The plot might very well give Dana the right words that she lacked until now.

As for the Masters keeping the Regults in service for so long... Cloning your soldiers, already trained, in record time, and building your mecha as cheap as you can possibly make them; might just have balanced the numbers enough, at the start of the invids war machine's production, to avert the raising of much needed alarms. When they finally tolled the attrition factor on their industry, it was too late. Or so, story did go.
As such, the Zentraedi would have been poorly placed to inform the humans of the problem. Especially since it would be a problem only from the human standpoint. Thinking to themselves : "Yeah. It'll be a carnage, but as long as you can tolerate at least a 30% KIA rate... and since we'll have a decent missile capacity now. I guess we'll be okay."
Canon and secondary canon usually treat this at the last minute; as a human officer asking why a Zentraedi would be so afraid of the invids, and receiving an answer by a now more civic minded Troodi that : "The loss of life will be staggering". Something that would have previously been thought of as glorious by their people.

Which makes me think of another argument shedding lights on the difficulties of the UEEF, compared to the Zentraedi Armada, when fighting swarms of Invids.
A zentraedi like Khyron, or most of the lower ranks, wouldn't hesitate to use a batch of fresh recruits in regults, or even empty regults, in order to let the bugs cluster on an easy target to torch with ship weapons.
A human, or converted Zentraedi, on the other side... Will most probably be seriously disturbed by continuously firing on his friends, calling for help, for the sake of thinning the swarms. With limited mecha and protoculture at their disposal, higher ops might also criticize the long term use of such tactics. Some might be hoping that they'll get enough fighter aces to potshot the Invid mecha clustered on a friendly, one by one; thus saving a costly to train pilot and parts of his / her mecha.
Just a thought.

_________________
On the wrong forum, 30 years too late...


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:28 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 am
Posts: 5241
Location: New Frontier Shipyard, Earth-Moon L5
Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
xunk16 wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote:
So much so, in fact, that the Titan Robotech Remix comic series recently took a cheap shot at the whole topic. In that timeline, development of the Alpha is shut down and its funding redirected to the YF-4 partly due to the advice of a Dana Sterling from the future who successfully advocates for the YF-4 on the basis that the numbers-before-quality philosophy behind the Alpha doesn't work.


Cheap shot, really? I rather thought this was an awesome wink to the kind of battle RT fans seems to have all the time.

Yes, really. Quite a few of the older Robotech fans would probably go so far as to call that a bit of trolling on Titan Comics’ part. As you saw recently, certain parts of the fandom react VERY poorly to anything that smacks of criticism of Robotech’s other two sagas regardless of how factual and well-researched it might be. This kind of thing would be a berserk button to that type of Robotech fan and even some of the milder sort here would consider it a thrown gauntlet… never mind the more blatant nods to Macross proper in the same issue.



xunk16 wrote:
Something that canon never truly addresses, but still is in the data given, is the relative sizes of the Invid Mecha Vs VF-1s, YF-4s, and Regults. They don't just have a massive numerical advantage. They are like insects attacking a bigger target. Mens have been known to be fell by swarms of wasps, or even mosquitoes, when there is enough of the bugs.

Yes, that is completely correct… but you’ve missed the actual point just as completely.

Like that swarm of stinging insects, the Invid are powerless to inflict harm unless they’re right on top of you. If you don’t get close to them, they literally can’t hurt you and you can wipe them out with impunity. The so-called Alpha Fighter is about the worst possible weapon you could ask for to fight the Invid, because the design plays to the Invid’s strengths. It’s only slightly faster than a regular Invid scout, it’s lightly armored, it has no point defense to speak of, it’s not great in close quarters, and its only weapons are extremely short-ranged missiles and a beam gun that are for engaging at distances of at most a kilometer or two. The limitations of its design force the Alpha fighter to fight exclusively under conditions that significantly favor the Invid, at ranges where the Invid are never more than about 1 second away from tapping on the canopy to ask for the UEEF pilot’s license, registration, and proof of insurance. It can’t even run away properly, because it’s incapable of even suborbital flight paths.

To someone like Future!Dana, the obvious remedy would be to instead adopt a fighter which can strike those aggressively range-limited opponents from far enough away that they literally cannot retaliate, something fast and heavily armed enough for hit-and-run attacks, agile enough to avoid being hit, and capable of escaping under its own power if need be. The YF-4 would be the only sensible option for Earth. The Zentradi, of course, could potentially negate the Invid’s numerical advantage at the height of their power, but in most depictions still opted for the safer approach of just shelling them from orbit where the Invid literally couldn’t fight back.



xunk16 wrote:
Someone will probably try and tell that this would never happen... but saying the campaign get longer than anticipated, human and zentraedi mecha will eventually lack missiles. Even temporarily. Making it that much more easier for the Invids to get into CQB.

Even in the profoundly unlikely event that an entire army ran out of missiles all at once for some reason, if you’re fighting from outside the Invid’s ability to retaliate… just leave and come back a bit later. Mind you, if you’re doing it right, you’ve been using reflex warheads and killing dozens or hundreds of Invid with each missile and the number of Invid likely to reach you through those salvos are few enough to be easily dealt with.



xunk16 wrote:
Not even mentioning the clear ambush tactics used around hives and elsewhere.

The sensible approach would be the Zentradi one… just bombard that sh*t from orbit. Even if you don’t, the Invid are going to have a much harder time spotting an incoming attack in YF-4s as opposed to Alphas because as far as we know the YF-4 uses fusion powerplants instead of protoculture so the Invid can’t sense them coming the way they can an Alpha fighter.



xunk16 wrote:
Which brings me to the original explanation for dropping the YF-4s in favour of the more "numerous" and cheaply built Alphas. Not only this would make more missiles on the battlefield at once, it makes the whole process of fast repair and maintenance that much more plausible

The comic actually references this line of reasoning… as something Dana managed to explicitly debunk with hard data from practical testing. “More ships with more missiles kill more aliens” is apparently debunked, probably in light of the Alphas themselves quickly becoming casualties at the ranges their ultra-short-range ordnance requires them to engage at.

(Mind you, if the Robotech YF-4’s armaments are anything like the trial production VF-4A-0’s in Macross, it’ll have either six or eight underwing pylons. It could carry the same number of SRMs as the Alpha and still have up to half of its pylons free, or double down and take 90 SRMs on its pylons.)



xunk16 wrote:
On the other hand, the YF-4 was supposed to have problems with its costly maintenance, computerized systems prompt to failure for being over-complicated by the transformation sequence, [...]

It’s a prototype… that means that not all of the issues with the design have been solved yet.



xunk16 wrote:
AND is bigger (which brings the problem mentioned above, plus technically put a bigger drain on fuel because of the weight involved).

It’s actually smaller than the VF-1, if you look at its stats.

The claim that it would also consume more fuel simply because it’s slightly heavier is also not a substantiatable one… it’s equally likely that its greater weight is offset and then some by a more powerful and efficient second-generation engine.



xunk16 wrote:
All in all... It makes sense for the executives to drop the YF-4 in favour of the Alpha.

It would, if they didn’t have someone from the future coming to tell them what a terrible mistake the Alpha was and how wrong the assumptions underpinning its design turned out to be. If the attrition rate is so high that your marginally cheaper fighter becomes single use, then you’re not really saving anything… you’re just getting a bunch of pilots killed unnecessarily.



xunk16 wrote:
RRT tactics goes so far as relegating them [YF-4s] to missions against ships or specific "big guns" typed target. Something that is often hard to find in an invid setup.

That’s a game rule in a cancelled tabletop game… it has no bearing on the official setting.



xunk16 wrote:
Something that should technically make the option of better (directly produced as) Jotuns, or a smaller and simpler version of the YF-4s, available in decent numbers. Dana knows this, and is expertly placed to contest what is realistically near-unavoidable.
Especially if they are able to produce to Shadow-Figther status directly.

The Shadow Fighter has all the same defects and disadvantages the regular Alpha Fighter does, its shadow device only addresses the Invid’s ability to instantly locate and track the aircraft using the characteristic emissions of its protoculture power source. If you’re not using protoculture, it’s not a necessary feature. If she’s from far enough in the future to identify shadow technology at a glance, she’s likely also from far enough in the future to know shadow technology’s a Haydonite black box boobytrap and warn the Earth forces not to adopt it.



xunk16 wrote:
With this said, fusing the working elements from all three programs (Shadow YF-Alpha) might be a better solution, for new material, than continuously indulging in old and sterile banters about which OSM design was cooler.

Titan Comics isn’t exactly sinking a lot of money into Robotech Remix. They’re not going to try to work around this by creating new designs, which is why the “new” designs were simply taken from existing materials. The redesigned VF-1 that tested so poorly was Macross fan art that was alleged by the artist to have been taken and used without his permission, and their riff on the Shadow Fighter is just one of the early Legioss concept art pieces painted black. Its riff on the Robotech Masters appears to be mostly just an attempt to knock off the Mardook of Macross II: Lovers Again, and the less said about the zombies the better.

Titan’s handling of the comic license is more or less what we’d expect from long experience with the franchise… they’re sticking with Macross because that’s what sells, and they’re trying to Macross-ize the other sagas to improve their appeal in much the same way HG tried with its ill-fated Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles OVA. (Albeit with a freer hand, since comics are legally merchandise so they can actually use the SDF Macross designs instead of having to try to retool MOSPEADA ones to look more Macross-like.)



xunk16 wrote:
As for the Masters keeping the Regults in service for so long... Cloning your soldiers, already trained, in record time, and building your mecha as cheap as you can possibly make them; might just have balanced the numbers enough, at the start of the invids war machine's production, to avert the raising of much needed alarms. When they finally tolled the attrition factor on their industry, it was too late. Or so, story did go.

They don’t even need to… they can just stand off at a distance of a light second or so and blast the planet from there, just like they did to Earth in the first episode. The Zentradi could wipe out the Invid without breaking a sweat, and we know there were Zentradi ships in UEEF possession, which makes it odd that they wouldn’t apply those to the Earth problem.



xunk16 wrote:
A zentraedi like Khyron, or most of the lower ranks, wouldn't hesitate to use a batch of fresh recruits in regults, or even empty regults, in order to let the bugs cluster on an easy target to torch with ship weapons.

You don’t even need to do that much… because the Invid are ferried into orbit in nice, slow, and utterly defenseless transports where you can pop them by the hundreds while they’re still in the can.

_________________
Macross2.net - Home of the Macross Mecha Manual

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:13 am
  

User avatar
Wanderer

Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:40 am
Posts: 85
Seto Kaiba wrote:
(Mind you, if the Robotech YF-4’s armaments are anything like the trial production VF-4A-0’s in Macross, it’ll have either six or eight underwing pylons. It could carry the same number of SRMs as the Alpha and still have up to half of its pylons free, or double down and take 90 SRMs on its pylons.)

I still prefer to think that the YF-4 from Robotech has an entirely different future than the one from Macross. That RRT design was rather nice.
Plus, for someone who do continuously argue from a limited Robotech canon standpoint, you certainly give a lot of credit to Macross comparisons. Which, in this precise instance, would be no more or less wrong than me quoting RRT's YF-4 having only internal / recessed missiles delivery systems.
While the modification to include "underwing pylons", on the final model, does not seems like a stretch; I am at a loss to know if the aerodynamics of that precise frame would take it. Or if the "underwing pylons" could have been deleted for the same transformation sequence problems that plague its computer systems.

Given this could all be settled during the research phase, but research needs budget. That is why people argue and cancel some.
My point was mainly that Dana might not be enough to prevent the project to be canned. Indeed, her very presence suggest that the Alpha was enough for nearly everything; except protecting the Earth on which they weren't (in sufficient numbers), and fighting haydonite who could have simply designed their own weapon platforms according to human weaknesses. Plus, it might also be a good story to see her fight the higher ops on that decision. Even if Titan's inclination eventually proves you right by "stealing" the VF-4A-0's from its original context (which could happen), it wouldn't prevent that argument to happen. It would just mean that Dana would have eventually won.

Meanwhile, as far as missile range goes... I'm not sure canon ever followed precisely the range given anywhere in RT sources.
I wasn't entertaining the idea of a full army lacking missile, but only that a wave of invids could approach while a wave of Alpha has to go back to a ship to re-supply. A problem which would also eventually happens for whatever definitive version of the YF-4 sees production, or not, in Robotech.
Yes, countless Invids would die... But this comes with the idea of "swarm tactics".
You only need a handful of well-placed can-openers.
Or so the zerg rush taught us.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
xunk16 wrote:
Something that should technically make the option of better (directly produced as) Jotuns, or a smaller and simpler version of the YF-4s, available in decent numbers. Dana knows this, and is expertly placed to contest what is realistically near-unavoidable.
Especially if they are able to produce to Shadow-Figther status directly.

The Shadow Fighter has all the same defects and disadvantages the regular Alpha Fighter does, its shadow device only addresses the Invid’s ability to instantly locate and track the aircraft using the characteristic emissions of its protoculture power source. If you’re not using protoculture, it’s not a necessary feature. If she’s from far enough in the future to identify shadow technology at a glance, she’s likely also from far enough in the future to know shadow technology’s a Haydonite black box boobytrap and warn the Earth forces not to adopt it.


I'm afraid you've misread me, or that I wasn't clear enough there.
I wasn't offering that they should produce direct from the blueprints "Shadow Fighters".
Merely that they might want to try and retro-engineer the Shadow cloaking capacity, minus Haydonite booby-traps, in order to implement them directly into Jotuns or YF-4s. (Since they don't yet have the Alpha to upgrade, this shouldn't be so much of a stretch. It surely would deserve to be mentioned as a possibility for the R&D department.) This could be an argument in favour of choosing the less numerous but somewhat superior fighter, since the Invid can't swarm what they can't understand as a target.
Win-win all around... as long as the job is well done to minimize the risk of this coming back to bite them later.

Worst case scenario... Dana only have to tell them about the cheat code used in Shadow Chronicle.
Make the fighter so that it can deactivate it's shadow systems as soon as a possible Haydonite signature is detected, deduced.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Titan’s handling of the comic license is more or less what we’d expect from long experience with the franchise… they’re sticking with Macross because that’s what sells, and they’re trying to Macross-ize the other sagas to improve their appeal in much the same way HG tried with its ill-fated Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles OVA. (Albeit with a freer hand, since comics are legally merchandise so they can actually use the SDF Macross designs instead of having to try to retool MOSPEADA ones to look more Macross-like.)


Sadly yes. For now.
I'm still waiting for the Macross era stuff to be over and done, as writing seems to have improved exponentially since they switched the team doing it.
But the way some things are is definitely going as you said. The depiction of Max Sterling rightly comes to mind.
However, I fail to see what great expanses would have to be made, in comic form, to develop a "new look" on existing mechas.
It sounds to me like this would be more of an artistic choice and a production's team debate over what the fans wants.
Who knows... They could have finally given work to someone who knows how to draw original material.
Which seems to be the case, at least following the newly found emotive range of the characters.

As for the fluidity of the transformation's sequence and technical details... I remember being puzzled by the MODAT-5 and Cyclones, until toymakers proved that it wouldn't have been readily possible to keep these functioning without fiddling with realism a little. Point is, maybe Remix can create something and think it will be able to sort the details later. As long as it is cool enough; it might just enjoy the cult following it needs to stay official.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
xunk16 wrote:
As for the Masters keeping the Regults in service for so long... Cloning your soldiers, already trained, in record time, and building your mecha as cheap as you can possibly make them; might just have balanced the numbers enough, at the start of the invids war machine's production, to avert the raising of much needed alarms. When they finally tolled the attrition factor on their industry, it was too late. Or so, story did go.

They don’t even need to… they can just stand off at a distance of a light second or so and blast the planet from there, just like they did to Earth in the first episode. The Zentradi could wipe out the Invid without breaking a sweat, and we know there were Zentradi ships in UEEF possession, which makes it odd that they wouldn’t apply those to the Earth problem.


Yes... It is indeed strange. Especially if you voluntarily forget about all the instances of integrated zentraedis being afraid of the invid's war machine. Most remembering battles having nothing to do with clean bombing runs. Or telling their humans friends that they "haven't seen something as ferocious as the invids yet". In fact, I don't readily remember any instances of "clean bombing runs" being operated by Zentraedis on Invid targets. They did scorch earth in the original Macross era, but that was against a very poorly prepared humanity.
Said Invid war machine, which just happens, included a starfish-class giant carrier at some point. Something we don't yet know if Titan's version will resuscitate or not.
Once again, all arguments being on published range which doesn't seem to be those used religiously by RT authors... I prefer to reserve judgment on how well Breetai's armada should have wiped out the Invids from existence long before any events of Robotech happening.

_________________
On the wrong forum, 30 years too late...


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:34 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 6338
Location: WI
Seto wrote:
(Mind you, if the Robotech YF-4’s armaments are anything like the trial production VF-4A-0’s in Macross, it’ll have either six or eight underwing pylons. It could carry the same number of SRMs as the Alpha and still have up to half of its pylons free, or double down and take 90 SRMs on its pylons.)


Given the large similarity in plan form design between the Fighter Mode YF-4 and the Conbat, the Conbat might give another idea of how well "armed" the YF-4 would have been in Robotech (so 4 hardpoints and pair of beam cannons) and "in-universe" might have been a non-transformable spinoff of the YF-4 (sort of like the Condor VF/nt-B we get, but this time for cross-saga link purposes. I know not how they implemented it in the RPG). Then again RRT and Strange Machine's RPG (playtest) agree the VF-4 has a pair of beam cannons, internal launcher and long range missiles. RRT gives a payload (4 and 3 respectively) for their missile systems, but SM did not.

*which aren't used, if they had been the Alpha/Beta stacks would be just as capable if not more so than a YF-4 based design. And it isn't like the A/B stack needs the Beta to transform.

Seto wrote:
if you’re doing it right, you’ve been using reflex warheads and killing dozens or hundreds of Invid with each missile and the number of Invid likely to reach you through those salvos are few enough to be easily dealt with.

Invasion #1 shows either they aren't doing it right or the tactic is not as effective against the Invid.

It's probably also worth considering the Invid's rapid evolutionary pace, this tactic might work in the short term, but in the long term it might lose its effectiveness if the Invid have enough time to adapt. A later Invasion Comic states the Invid have gone from simple organisms to near human in the span of UEEF contact (less than 20 years at that point), and given new mecha come with each evolutionary incarnation... FutureDana's timeline tampering might end up making the Invid more formidable.

Seto wrote:
Even if you don’t, the Invid are going to have a much harder time spotting an incoming attack in YF-4s as opposed to Alphas because as far as we know the YF-4 uses fusion powerplants instead of protoculture so the Invid can’t sense them coming the way they can an Alpha fighter.

This assumes the YF-4s don't come in with other Protoculture powered ships or are themselves PC powered (PC fuel might have been design requirement given the Alpha competitor). Then again the Alpha's might also be able to approach in a hard to detect mode ("Close off your protoculture feed and switch over to manual impulse then they'll have no way of tracking us" from episode "Annie's Wedding", while the NG VFs are still in the air)

Seto wrote:
It would, if they didn’t have someone from the future coming to tell them what a terrible mistake the Alpha was and how wrong the assumptions underpinning its design turned out to be. If the attrition rate is so high that your marginally cheaper fighter becomes single use, then you’re not really saving anything… you’re just getting a bunch of pilots killed unnecessarily.

Mind you the UEEF could also take FutureDana's information to improve the Alpha with Fusion engines (will need to find room for their fuel though**) and with them its performance is altered, a more potent targeting system (no need to fire massive volleys to get a single kill), external hardpoints (new ones or adapt known mounting points), point defense weapons, better pilot training (we see guys in NG fire large volleys of missiles and still miss, we also see an overall reluctance to use missiles favoring the gunpod).

**mind you theoretically they could replace the Cyclone Bay for IIRC ~1000L tank, and get another 480L from both wings total (this ~1480L would be around what the stock VF-1 carries IIRC). This ignores spaces used for the Pop-Up Drone launcher, the OSM toy/model intake missiles (use space as conformal tank), PC-canisters, etc.

Seto wrote:
You don’t even need to do that much… because the Invid are ferried into orbit in nice, slow, and utterly defenseless transports where you can pop them by the hundreds while they’re still in the can.

Invid Booster Scout. The existence of this platform means the Invid could switch to a launching massive waves (spread out to minimize impact of the LRM) of this mecha or a variant of. Obviously the Invid would need time to adapt, but given Invasion#1 they seem to have that time.

xunk16 wrote:
Merely that they might want to try and retro-engineer the Shadow cloaking capacity, minus Haydonite booby-traps

The thing is we don't know if the Haydointe "Booby-Trap" can be removed. It might be an "extra" that can be removed w/o any issue ("this FM radio antenna doesn't do anything"), or it could be inherent in the technology ("shadow field when exposed to disrupter wave results in feedback overload").


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:09 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 am
Posts: 5241
Location: New Frontier Shipyard, Earth-Moon L5
Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
xunk16 wrote:
I still prefer to think that the YF-4 from Robotech has an entirely different future than the one from Macross. That RRT design was rather nice.

Personally, I suspect that's rather unlikely given that Harmony Gold's Robotech creative staff have increasingly fallen back on the Japanese OSM in the years since the franchise was rebooted back in 2001. The Robotech RPG Tactics YF-4 design exists pretty much entirely because Harmony Gold's license to the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross didn't extend to concept art of the VF-X-4's transformation that Shoji Kawamori did after the series ended.



xunk16 wrote:
Plus, for someone who do continuously argue from a limited Robotech canon standpoint, you certainly give a lot of credit to Macross comparisons. Which, in this precise instance, would be no more or less wrong than me quoting RRT's YF-4 having only internal / recessed missiles delivery systems.

More accurately, I give a lot of credit to OSM comparisons because Harmony Gold derives the vast majority of its official information for things like mecha from the OSM. Post-Reboot Robotech is copying so much and so completely from the OSM that they've accidentally copied things that don't actually exist in Robotech like the VF-1's UUM-7 micro-missile pods that appeared for the first time in Macross: Do You Remember Love?. (The RPG calls these "MLOPs".) Even some of the questionable material in the official stats only made it in because the fan "researchers" HG got that information from passed their own suppositions off as from the OSM.

Indeed, on more than one occasion Tommy Yune himself lurked discussions between myself and ShadowLogan looking to pick up more OSM tidbits that could be thrown into the "Infopedia" on the old official website. We were indirectly responsible for several updates like that, including the statements about the VF-1's service ceiling.

So, put simply, because Harmony Gold puts so much stock in the Japanese OSM as a top-tier source of information the pylons would be far more likely than internal/recessed missile systems.



xunk16 wrote:
While the modification to include "underwing pylons", on the final model, does not seems like a stretch; I am at a loss to know if the aerodynamics of that precise frame would take it. Or if the "underwing pylons" could have been deleted for the same transformation sequence problems that plague its computer systems.

It's never been said that transformation problems "plague" the YF-4... we've seen exactly one prototype have transformation problems ONCE, and that was a test article that'd been unexpectedly put into live combat.

WRT the aerodynamics, it shouldn't be a problem. The VF-X-4 is a hybrid delta wing, and therefore extremely stable and with considerable lift.



xunk16 wrote:
My point was mainly that Dana might not be enough to prevent the project to be canned.

She successfully defunded development of the Alpha... that's pretty canned.



xunk16 wrote:
Indeed, her very presence suggest that the Alpha was enough for nearly everything; [...]

Quite the opposite... Dana was never an Alpha pilot, and her branch of service never used them. She was one of the lucky ones who escaped being massacred in the Invid invasion of Earth and in the Expeditionary Forces' various botched attempts to liberate Earth. She was ideally placed to hear all about the decades of grinding attrition the UEEF experienced in its long war against the weaker and more dispersed forces of the Invid Regent and to receive the news of how the Invid massacred whole UEEF taskforces with impunity during the attempts to retake Earth. She was surrounded, literally, day in and day out by people who had to bear the cost of the Alpha fighter's fundamentally flawed design. She survived because she had a "shore" posting at Space Station Liberty and didn't have to put her life on the line by either flying an Alpha or depending on people who were.



xunk16 wrote:
Plus, it might also be a good story to see her fight the higher ops on that decision.

The dialog makes it pretty clear she already won that fight handily, and with hard data rather than opinions... Admiral Donald Hayes is hopping mad she got the VF-X-6 program's funding pulled and redirected to the YF-4 but she even managed to sway Lisa to her side with the hard data.



xunk16 wrote:
Yes, countless Invids would die... But this comes with the idea of "swarm tactics".
You only need a handful of well-placed can-openers.
Or so the zerg rush taught us.

That's why you "thin the herd" with saturation bombardment before they can get to you... these are not new or novel strategic lessons, this is World War 1-era tactics.

Zerg rushes are, to be frank, absolute strategic idiocy and have been ever since the advent of artillery. It took the UEEF decades to beat an enemy that had no ranged weaponry because they wouldn't stop trying to get right up in the faces of foe with overwhelming numerical superiority. Bringing a knife to a gunfight is a severe handicap one-on-one for the guy with the knife, but if it's the one bloke with the gun vs. the knife guy and a dozen of his best mates the bloke with the gun's going to wind up shanked before he's gotten more than a shot or two off if you're doing this at twenty paces. The same fight from, say, a hundred yards is a much different story. The gunman can cap a bunch of the knife-wielding mob and either clean up or leg it before they get close enough to do more than just make rude hand gestures at him. Zerg rushes only work in video games because 1. the controlling player is indifferent to the loss of life and 2. there are game balance measures to ensure everyone's on a relatively even footing no matter what.



xunk16 wrote:
Merely that they might want to try and retro-engineer the Shadow cloaking capacity, minus Haydonite booby-traps, in order to implement them directly into Jotuns or YF-4s. (Since they don't yet have the Alpha to upgrade, this shouldn't be so much of a stretch. It surely would deserve to be mentioned as a possibility for the R&D department.) This could be an argument in favour of choosing the less numerous but somewhat superior fighter, since the Invid can't swarm what they can't understand as a target.

Considering the best and brightest minds of 2044 couldn't suss out the shadow device beyond simply being a black box, that's probably a boondoggle...

Mind you, it's not like they were short of reasons to go for a highly capable multirole fighter over a budget model that a time traveler from the future has revealed is a borderline useless flying coffin.



xunk16 wrote:
Make the fighter so that it can deactivate it's shadow systems as soon as a possible Haydonite signature is detected, deduced.

Assuming that's even possible... Shadow Chronicles suggests it's not, and that the only way around the problem is to operate with the shadow devices physically disconnected. The RPG broadly concurs with this assessment as well.



xunk16 wrote:
Sadly yes. For now.
I'm still waiting for the Macross era stuff to be over and done, as writing seems to have improved exponentially since they switched the team doing it.

Er... I wouldn't hold my breath for that day, if I were you.

The Macross Saga has, historically, been the only part of Robotech to prove commercially viable and almost every attempt to continue the Robotech story has always been based on it. The only exception was, until a few years ago, the franchise's worst and most embarrassing failure: Robotech 3000. The whole draw of Robotech II: the Sentinels was that it was the continuing adventures of the surviving Macross Saga cast. Robotech: the Untold Story was pitched as a Macross Saga side story about Rick Hunter's cousin trying to get to the bottom of the coverup of the SDF-1's disappearance. The comics that launched the reboot were Macross Saga comics, save for one New Generation one that had a Macross Saga mini-comic sharing page count with it. Shadow Chronicles's whole draw was closing the loop on the disappearance of Admiral Rick Hunter from the end of the New Generation. Even Robotech Academy couldn't resist.

Titan Comics isn't working under the same constraints as the Harmony Gold Robotech creative team. Because comic books are legally merchandise in this license, Titan Comics can freely use the characters and designs of SDF Macross in their story. There's nothing forcing them to skip ahead, or put aside the Macross Saga characters or mecha the way Harmony Gold was forced to by the different shows they were working with and the legal restrictions preventing them from using those designs in new film works. They're going to stick with the Macross Saga characters and designs for the simple reason that that's what sells to Robotech fans. They're doing the same thing that Harmony Gold has tried to do, albeit with a freer hand, by making Robotech into something you could call "American Macross". They're very clearly taking pointers from Macross's sequels all over the place in an attempt to make this more marketable, and at least one member of Titan's staff has admitted to being a Macross fan and drawing inspiration from it for this comic.



xunk16 wrote:
However, I fail to see what great expanses would have to be made, in comic form, to develop a "new look" on existing mechas.

To be brutally frank, designing an original transforming mecha is HARD. Even tweaking an existing design while not breaking the delicate balance of its transformation and making sure it looks right in all of its modes is extremely difficult. Look no further than Robotech's attempt to develop its own original VF: the Delta Fighter. Tommy Yune is a professional artist with a good education and no small amount of actual talent, and the best he could manage for an original VF design was a couple of clumsy sketches of a VF based on MOSPEADA's AF-3.

There are very few mechanical designers in the anime industry whose portfolios include transforming mecha, precisely because this is a very difficult discipline even with the assistance of modern PCs and CAD/CAM software. Doing it entirely on paper requires the hand of a master like Shoji Kawamori, Yoshiyuki Tomino, Mamoru Nagano, and so on. Titan's not going to make an investment on that scale for a comic that's selling a few thousand copies.



xunk16 wrote:
Which seems to be the case, at least following the newly found emotive range of the characters.

That's pretty much entirely because they've gone away from the "photorealistic" style they tried in the first comic that was so roundly mocked, the process of drawing which depended very heavily on tracing from stock photos.



xunk16 wrote:
Yes... It is indeed strange. Especially if you voluntarily forget about all the instances of integrated zentraedis being afraid of the invid's war machine.

Given that those instances are all from non-canon materials dismissed by Harmony Gold as being of generally poor quality and inconsistent to the point of being "Robotech in name only".

In short, they didn't happen as far as any post-reboot Robotech material is concerned.

_________________
Macross2.net - Home of the Macross Mecha Manual

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:11 am
  

User avatar
Wanderer

Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:40 am
Posts: 85
Seto Kaiba wrote:
xunk16 wrote:
My point was mainly that Dana might not be enough to prevent the project to be canned.

She successfully defunded development of the Alpha... that's pretty canned.

That's implying the Admiral won't fight back. He's the guy who managed to get the Grand cannon funded. I'd say, since there is a lot of the old establishment still alive this time around, he has his chances. Even with Lisa on her side, there is a whole lot of people, some who we haven't even seen yet, which could be major players in that argument. Invids simulagents using disinformation, amongst them, would also make for a good story.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
xunk16 wrote:
Indeed, her very presence suggest that the Alpha was enough for nearly everything; [...]

Quite the opposite... Dana was never an Alpha pilot, and her branch of service never used them. She was one of the lucky ones who escaped being massacred in the Invid invasion of Earth and in the Expeditionary Forces' various botched attempts to liberate Earth. She was ideally placed to hear all about the decades of grinding attrition the UEEF experienced in its long war against the weaker and more dispersed forces of the Invid Regent and to receive the news of how the Invid massacred whole UEEF taskforces with impunity during the attempts to retake Earth. She was surrounded, literally, day in and day out by people who had to bear the cost of the Alpha fighter's fundamentally flawed design. She survived because she had a "shore" posting at Space Station Liberty and didn't have to put her life on the line by either flying an Alpha or depending on people who were.

Yes, that might be her personal experience. However she comes back with the factual account of the UEEF's survival, of the news of their victory over the invid Regent, and the data could be corrected in any way from there. If the Alpha was so bad, then they would not even have been a Rick Hunter to send her back. Her presence means that there might be more than a way to solve this. Especially since the real problem came with the Haydonites and how the ASC was left with "lesser equipment"... not the Invids.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
xunk16 wrote:
Yes, countless Invids would die... But this comes with the idea of "swarm tactics".
You only need a handful of well-placed can-openers.
Or so the zerg rush taught us.

That's why you "thin the herd" with saturation bombardment before they can get to you... these are not new or novel strategic lessons, this is World War 1-era tactics.

And I'm not saying you are wrong. Maybe we just don't imagine an invid swarm on the same scale here. I'm speaking enough crabs so that this "thinning the herd" you speak of wouldn't be effective enough.
Even at minimal facts...
The invid survived a massive armada of Zentraedi. The Master built that massive Armada, putting their all into it, because they deemed it necessary. They didn't just build massive space cannons, they complemented it with everything someone would need in order to pierce through a nebula of invid mecha; in order to reach a target. They didn't contemplate annihilation directly, even at their peak, no... They preferred to attack the energy source of these critters, because simply whiffing them out of existence would have been too much even for their might. And this number gets increasingly even bigger when you compare it against the apparent frailty of individual invid weapon platforms. Not just barely, but enough so that they could invade the whole Master and Karbarran empire, reduce it to two planets left, and conquer even this. Exedore brings back to Earth, not the news that bombing the Invid from far away is possible, but that this will be an ugly fight; the like of which mankind cannot even begin to pretend to comprehend.
Simply using WWI tactics to solve the issue is kinda the mistake he's telling them not to do.
Implying this might well have been tried and failed.
Keeping the enemy at a distance is simple logic. If this was a possibility, if this was as simple as that... then there wouldn't be a need for something like the Zentraedi. The Alpha chose a logic which was tried by the Zentraedi Armada... More targets, more guns, more missiles. This was based on the fact that the zentraedi did survive their war. Putting all this aside to gamble on a superior but less numerous fighter is still a gamble.
It might just work.
It might even be genius to do so.
But it is all in the hands of the writers really.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
xunk16 wrote:
Merely that they might want to try and retro-engineer the Shadow cloaking capacity, minus Haydonite booby-traps, in order to implement them directly into Jotuns or YF-4s. (Since they don't yet have the Alpha to upgrade, this shouldn't be so much of a stretch. It surely would deserve to be mentioned as a possibility for the R&D department.) This could be an argument in favour of choosing the less numerous but somewhat superior fighter, since the Invid can't swarm what they can't understand as a target.

Considering the best and brightest minds of 2044 couldn't suss out the shadow device beyond simply being a black box, that's probably a boondoggle...

Mind you, it's not like they were short of reasons to go for a highly capable multirole fighter over a budget model that a time traveler from the future has revealed is a borderline useless flying coffin.

Once again, given that something could be done to build a better mecha. It doesn't mean that a compromise couldn't be better.
As for the better minds of 2044... we're speaking of those lucky enough to survive the rain of death.
There might be better minds still alive in the world of Remix.
We just don't know.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
xunk16 wrote:
Make the fighter so that it can deactivate it's shadow systems as soon as a possible Haydonite signature is detected, deduced.

Assuming that's even possible... Shadow Chronicles suggests it's not, and that the only way around the problem is to operate with the shadow devices physically disconnected. The RPG broadly concurs with this assessment as well.

Physically disconnected... Witch is basically what a fail-safe switch does.
It wasn't done in Shadow Chronicle, because the UEEF trusted their allies and the tech worked exactly to specifications. (Untill, you know...)
Now that they know... Why the hell wouldn't they put a simple fail-safe switch on the dashboard? Something mechanical that would pull the plug?
The RPG saw the conflict with the Haydonite drag onward. Let's take for a moment the suggestion of ShadowLogan, that the tech might inherently be flawed, like the shields from Dune that are allergic to Lasers.

ShadowLogan wrote:
xunk16 wrote:
Merely that they might want to try and retro-engineer the Shadow cloaking capacity, minus Haydonite booby-traps

The thing is we don't know if the Haydointe "Booby-Trap" can be removed. It might be an "extra" that can be removed w/o any issue ("this FM radio antenna doesn't do anything"), or it could be inherent in the technology ("shadow field when exposed to disrupter wave results in feedback overload").


It wouldn't make sense, for the UEEF, to keep using shadow tech against an enemy who know the laser to point on it.
Ergo, a fail-safe switch wouldn't even be thought of at this point.
That is a different scenario against the masters and the Invids, in the past, with a decent warning time to get ready.

Another thing comes to me thinking about the difficulties of this argument.
We have to assume that the Zentraedi weren't enough because the Invids still exists. And their bombardment capacity is certainly massive.
But most of the things we say here are based on the tech used by the Regess, which was decidedly less war-oriented in her spending of resources.
Mr. Kaiba will not like this, but we have at least a hint that the Invids known in canon might not be the full capacity of what they were prior to the war with the Zentraedi.
The Pursuer Missiles.

The two instance, in secondary canon, of the Pursuer Missiles; describes it as the last of its kind. This means that at some point, there was more of these planet crushers. We don't fully know if it was based on an extinct critter, or fully produced by the genesis pits. Either way, this suggest that the Invid did not get off lightly from their war with the Masters and Zentraedis.
Taking into account their "formidable" capacity for adaptation... This leaves to the imagination a lot of invid mecha and tactics which might not be available during their encounter with Earth and the UEEF. Those from the UEEF Marine sourcebook expands a little on what that capacity might have been.
And would the infamous "spaceship" supplement ever have been completed... we might just have had a plethora of other surprises.
Point is, the way the story is written, we are mostly shooting in the dark according to our collective picture of how it was for Battlepods to fight the Invids.
Once again, just a thought.

_________________
On the wrong forum, 30 years too late...


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2019 7:39 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 am
Posts: 5241
Location: New Frontier Shipyard, Earth-Moon L5
Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
xunk16 wrote:
That's implying the Admiral won't fight back.

And do what, exactly? Dana’s argument against the Alpha fighter, backed up by her experience from the literal future AND impartial test data from the present were sufficiently convincing to get the VF-X-6 program’s funding pulled and transferred to the YF-4. That means that she’s already convinced the government and/or a clear majority of the military’s top brass of her point. Dana’s argument was strong enough to convince the Admiral’s own ever-dutiful daughter to break ranks and side against him.

What’s he gonna do, shout “fake news!” at the person everyone knows has literal foreknowledge of how useless the Alpha is and hope that convinces someone?



xunk16 wrote:
I'd say, since there is a lot of the old establishment still alive this time around, he has his chances. Even with Lisa on her side, there is a whole lot of people, some who we haven't even seen yet, which could be major players in that argument.

Again, Admiral Hayes was mad about a decision that had already been made… that means he made his argument and lost.



xunk16 wrote:
Yes, that might be her personal experience. However she comes back with the factual account of the UEEF's survival, of the news of their victory over the invid Regent, and the data could be corrected in any way from there. If the Alpha was so bad, then they would not even have been a Rick Hunter to send her back.

You’re objecting so determinedly that you’re missing the point completely.

Yes, Future!Dana came back with an account of the UEEF’s survival, their eventual victory in the twenty year long war with the Invid Regent, and the conclusion of the 3rd Robotech War against the Invid Regess… but those things only sound positive when utterly bereft of context:
  • The UEEF survived its decades-long mission in deep space, but only just, and there was a lot of completely preventable loss of life due to inferior or unsuitable equipment and almost (or very likely actual) criminal levels of incompetence at the very highest levels.
  • The UEEF’s eventual victory over the Invid Regent came at the end of two decades of brutal attrition warfare in deep space that racked up a gargantuan toll in lives and materiel. In truth, it wasn’t even really a UEEF victory given that the Regent was effectively assassinated by one of his own allies. His forces weren’t even that impressive or capable, a strong argument could be made that the war only dragged on as long as it did because the UEEF’s sub-par weapons and weak leadership were utterly unequal to the task of fighting the Invid.
  • Because the UEEF’s troops were at full stretch just keeping the Invid Regent at bay with the sub-par weaponry they’d been issued and their inept leaders, they were unable to provide more than token reinforcements to support the UEDF against the Robotech Masters. As a result, the UEDF was nearly wiped out and the Robotech Masters began perpetrating a genocide against the inhabitants of Earth before a stalemate was reached and the survivors on both sides found themselves being wiped out by the Invid.
  • The UEEF’s inadequate equipment came back to bite them again when attempts to oust the new Invid occupation force on Earth resulted in not one but TWO massacres. The 1st and 2nd Earth Reclamation Forces were wiped out almost to a man, costing the UEEF dozens of ships and thousands of difficult-to-replace fighting men and women. Even armed with shadow tech weapons provided by the Haydonites, the UEEF was unable to actually defeat the Invid. That war only ended because the Regess left of her own accord, shocked by how violent humanity had become.

If you don’t leave out the context, the Alpha’s supposedly glowing record turns into a suicide note.



xunk16 wrote:
And I'm not saying you are wrong. Maybe we just don't imagine an invid swarm on the same scale here. I'm speaking enough crabs so that this "thinning the herd" you speak of wouldn't be effective enough.

I’m speaking about the size of the Invid forces we actually see in the show.


xunk16 wrote:
If this was a possibility, if this was as simple as that... then there wouldn't be a need for something like the Zentraedi.

You’re assuming the Zentradi were built to oppose the Invid. There is no indication that is the case in canon.



xunk16 wrote:
The Alpha chose a logic which was tried by the Zentraedi Armada... More targets, more guns, more missiles.

No, it didn’t. The Alpha’s design philosophy doesn’t really make sense at all. The Zentradi’s mecha were a diverse lot and included models with medium and long-range weaponry, while their fleet was capable of engaging targets from a full light second away. It’s a balanced force that relies on a mixture of long-ranged fire support and multirole light craft to deal with a wide variety of threats. The Alpha fighter has no versatility. It’s exclusively short-ranged, made to dogfight despite its design being absolutely terrible for the purpose aerodynamically, and the intended purpose of using it for a planetary invasion is simply bizarre given that it’s so poorly equipped to fight against an enemy with numerical superiority.



xunk16 wrote:
As for the better minds of 2044... we're speaking of those lucky enough to survive the rain of death.
There might be better minds still alive in the world of Remix.
We just don't know.

Given that every previous incarnation of Robotech has established that Dr. Lang and Dr. Zand were THE top men in the field even before the 1st Robotech War, that would likely not be the case.



xunk16 wrote:
Physically disconnected... Witch is basically what a fail-safe switch does.

… no, it isn’t. I’m actually at a bit of a loss to comprehend where you got that idea.

A failsafe is a design feature that, in the event of a specific failure mode, minimizes damage to a component, surrounding components, people, and/or the environment. The point of a failsafe is to safely and nondestructively shut down a system to prevent a dangerous condition so that the system can be restarted later. Physically disconnecting a component in mid-operation is a fairly destructive thing to do, and is likely to cause collateral damage to surrounding components and create additional hazards.

What you probably think of when you think of a “failsafe” is something like an emergency stop button… which isn’t actually a “failsafe” because it has to be manually triggered by an operator. Those don’t disconnect anything, they just temporarily break the electrical circuit supplying the system with power. The part is still connected to everything else it normally is, be it a network connection for data, or mechanical linkages for moving parts. A component that had its own backup power supply or even just capacitors with enough reserve could continue to operate even after triggering an emergency stop.



xunk16 wrote:
It wasn't done in Shadow Chronicle, because the UEEF trusted their allies and the tech worked exactly to specifications. (Untill, you know...)
Now that they know... Why the hell wouldn't they put a simple fail-safe switch on the dashboard? Something mechanical that would pull the plug?

First and foremost, because that’s not how failsafes work.

Second, for the same reason that automakers don’t leave e-stop buttons in production cars after they progress past the prototype phase. The risk of accidental actuation is too high, and it poses too much of a risk in real world operations. To give you an idea of the danger, shutting off power using an e-stop button in a car will shut the car down forcibly by interrupting 12V power. That’ll shut the engine off by killing the fuel pump and sparkplugs… but it’ll also kill the power to power steering, antilock brakes and other stability control features, the restraint controller that controls deployment of the airbags and seatbelt tensioners that keep you from dying messily in the event of an accident, and so on. Now imagine doing that at seventy miles per hour… what would the likely result be?

Third, this is an aircraft we’re talking about. By design, it has multiple redundant connections for power and network traffic between its various systems to ensure continuity of control in the event of damage. Severing ALL of those connections generally isnt possible, and even if you could it’d have some nasty knock-on effects for the rest of the network.

Fourth, the Shadow Fighters in RTSC did have controls to deactivate their shadow tech systems… but those controls became non-responsive when the shadow technology was compromised.



xunk16 wrote:
We have to assume that the Zentraedi weren't enough because the Invids still exists. And their bombardment capacity is certainly massive.

That assumes, without reason, that the Zentradi’s objective was to exterminate the Invid and not just secure a monopoly on the flowers of life for the Robotech Masters.



xunk16 wrote:
Mr. Kaiba will not like this, but we have at least a hint that the Invids known in canon might not be the full capacity of what they were prior to the war with the Zentraedi.

Materials which were disowned from the Robotech setting by Robotech’s creative team don’t merit consideration. They are, as has been noted, Robotech in name only.

_________________
Macross2.net - Home of the Macross Mecha Manual

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 4:01 am
  

User avatar
Wanderer

Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:40 am
Posts: 85
Seto Kaiba wrote:
xunk16 wrote:
I'd say, since there is a lot of the old establishment still alive this time around, he has his chances. Even with Lisa on her side, there is a whole lot of people, some who we haven't even seen yet, which could be major players in that argument.

Again, Admiral Hayes was mad about a decision that had already been made… that means he made his argument and lost.


Yup... There never was any projects mothballed in robotech, only to be resurrected and put into production much later.
Never in Robotech, nope. (Kof-Koff Beta, Kof Cyclones, koff-kof) Darn cough. Sorry.
Why would something be judged globally subpar and not working, only to be revisited later in light of future developments on the battlefield and scientific advances?
So many things canon don't tell us on the whys and how of such decisions. They just happens, generally off-screen.
At best we have the RPG to state one or two facts here and there.
Most of the time, we must assume those were qualified people taking the enlightened decision from the point of view of their own universe.
A scenario not always sheds light on all the small details that are common place to these people.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
You’re objecting so determinedly that you’re missing the point completely.

The feeling's mutual. I guess I just like the Alpha a lot... Also the Logans... But those will probably be written out entirely by Remix.
(The new team didn't hide their feelings on this during interviews. Sadly...)
And I'm still not buying that the writers will just completely abandon the "suspense / risk factor", because they draw one design instead of another.
(Because most of these "range" data and analyzed performances comes from this. Sometime, space opera can be rendered more exciting by having a dogfight were there would not be any sane reason to.)
Or that they would input a "new alternative future" Alpha into it, and not compare it to the next batch of fighters. So we'll get our answer one way or another.
Plus that new Timeline, if it does move on using only the future of the YF-4s, might just be as screwed as the previous one.
We already have a younger Rick coming back to get rid of Dana for unknown alterations.
Determined? Maybe. Or just open to suggestions.
Titan's iteration tend to be better ingested that way.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
xunk16 wrote:
And I'm not saying you are wrong. Maybe we just don't imagine an invid swarm on the same scale here. I'm speaking enough crabs so that this "thinning the herd" you speak of wouldn't be effective enough.

I’m speaking about the size of the Invid forces we actually see in the show.


Yup. Which we never really see too much during space battles where they would be at peak strength.
Best example of it would be Shadow Chronicle... against "invisible" fighters, and only the remains of the Regess' fleet.
I'm not sure we can assume that the force taking earth in a few still images was as unimpressive.

Other points? Meh... Might as well concede.
By the way, Merry Holidays of your choice too! :wink:

_________________
On the wrong forum, 30 years too late...


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:48 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 6338
Location: WI
xunk16 wrote:
t wouldn't make sense, for the UEEF, to keep using shadow tech against an enemy who know the laser to point on it.
Ergo, a fail-safe switch wouldn't even be thought of at this point.
That is a different scenario against the masters and the Invids, in the past, with a decent warning time to get ready.

A Fail-Safe Switch would not work with Shadow Technology per dialogue in Robotech Ep83.

Sue Grahm-Ep83 (emphasis mine): "Well let me show you you can see from this graphic representation that the protoculture generator has been designed with a fourth-dimensional configuration making the Shadow Fighters invisible to the Invid it’s that simple we're trying to give the survivors on Earth some hope by letting them in what's happening with Admiral Hunter's fleet"

The Shadow Device is integrated into the protoculture generator, you can't simply disable the main power plant and expect to have a viable functional platform. You might be able to in a starship (especially if its retrofit), but something small like a mecha will be much harder to engineer in. Then there is the issue that other exploits might exist that aren't known (remote commands, tracking which the Haydonites do but the UEEF doesn't know about).

Seto wrote:
What’s he gonna do, shout “fake news!” at the person everyone knows has literal foreknowledge of how useless the Alpha is and hope that convinces someone?

He doesn't have to go to that route. What he could do is use this literal foreknowledge is to address the issues and IMPROVE the Alpha fighter so it can be more effective. The Alpha design has seen changes/improvements in terms of its aerodynamics and engines (VF-6H/I to VF-6Z), so we know the design can be altered in these areas to offer improvements the engineers just have to improve upon this further. Weapons selection can also have work done, they could give it external hardpoints for heavy missiles (reflex warheads), mode limiting they might be (and in that regard the AJAC would be the only on screen Veritech w/o a mode limiting configuration option). He could use the argument that we know the Alpha is effective as designed to some point, and if we improve upon it. Does fDana have actual evidence that a YF-4 is the way to go, or is it more of we know how A turns out so B has to be the better option though I can't prove it?

Seto wrote:
The UEEF survived its decades-long mission in deep space, but only just, and there was a lot of completely preventable loss of life due to inferior or unsuitable equipment and almost (or very likely actual) criminal levels of incompetence at the very highest levels.

Here's the thing is the UEEF equipment actually fundamentally inferior/unsuitable or is it actually a reflection of poor training and planning on the UEEF's part?

You can have the best hardware in the world, but if the pilots aren't properly trained or even equipped in the right configuration (planning) they are not going to do as well. The Beta's ability to carry LRMs went un-used preventing the use of the MYTHICAL* Anti-Swarm LRM attack for the 2nd and 3rd Offensives is an example where they where not properly equipped. Training also seems to be lacking because we can point to at least 2 instances where EF soliders fired a massive missile barrage at point blank range and MISSED, which leads me to think training is a potential issue. You also have examples of "OVERKILL" in terms of Alpha missile barrages to get 1 or 2 kills, though we know the full barrage can be quite effective when used properly (EP81 has Rook and Rand getting a combined ~36 onscreen kills with it, which effectively ends the battle where dialogue puts the odds at 30:1 so the kill count might actually be higher in actual practice).

If anything the UEEF equipment and tactics does in part seem to be a reflection of the "successful" approaches used in TMS by the SDF-1. The SDF-1 sent out fighters to counter enemy mecha (no different than the UEEF), and took a lessons learned approach given the Alpha SRM capacity is equal to a standard VF-1 (assuming the 15shot-pod cribbed from SDF:M, instead of the often animated 3shot per pylong config), and with the Beta is a match for the Super VF-1 (nearly equal extra SRMs in theory, same wing configuration can adopted). The Beta also displays a space range superior to the VF-1 (earth surface to the moon, the best is getting into Earth Orbit).

*I say it is Mythical for Robotech because it never happens in Robotech Ep1-36 that I can recall. Do you have an episode number and timecode?

Seto wrote:
You’re assuming the Zentradi were built to oppose the Invid. There is no indication that is the case in canon.

Yeap, we don't know who the Zentreadi were built to oppose either. The known Sentinels races likely qualify as micronian" due to their native sizes, and w/exception of Haydonites the others might qualify also in terms of cultural avoidance. That doesn't leave any real option explored, and no real information on the few others mentioned in passing ("mutant zentreadi", DoZ, space pirates).


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 4:32 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 am
Posts: 5241
Location: New Frontier Shipyard, Earth-Moon L5
Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
xunk16 wrote:
Yup... There never was any projects mothballed in robotech, only to be resurrected and put into production much later.
Never in Robotech, nope. (Kof-Koff Beta, Kof Cyclones, koff-kof) Darn cough. Sorry.

Hm? The Cyclones were never a cancelled program. They had multiple prototype lines, which is not at all unusual for a new platform under development, but there’s no mention in any canon source I know of that they were a cancelled program that was revisited later.

The Beta was cancelled and later revisited, true, but only because they needed something that’d band-aid the holes in the TO&E left by the Alpha’s lack of operational versatility and the declining numbers of other types of aircraft due to combat losses and wear and tear. Its usefulness in that capacity seems to have been trivial at best, given that the Beta was swiftly demoted to being just an overpriced glorified FAST Pack… one the UEEF may have been looking to replace, given the UEEF’s development of more conventional FAST Packs for the Shadow fighters c.2044.



xunk16 wrote:
Why would something be judged globally subpar and not working, only to be revisited later in light of future developments on the battlefield and scientific advances?

That happens much more in fiction than it does in the real world, but one thing both tend to have in common is that it’s usually revealed to be a terrible idea in hindsight or at best a case of good concepts with terrible execution… the latter of which usually doesn’t come back in any form that resembles the failed original.



xunk16 wrote:
So many things canon don't tell us on the whys and how of such decisions. They just happens, generally off-screen.

To be brutally frank, a lot of the time these things don’t even make sense in context thanks to the cut-and-paste nature of the adaptation. The explanation for why the Alpha was adopted doesn’t even make sense when you look at the specs or the design, and the RPG had to reach to some pretty bizarre places to justify the existence of any of the Southern Cross mecha.



xunk16 wrote:
Most of the time, we must assume those were qualified people taking the enlightened decision from the point of view of their own universe.

Sometimes… just as often, we assume that the decisions were made by some cretin who had surrounded him-or-herself with yes-men and other toadys who’d validate their decisions with no regard for whether they were good or not. This, not coincidentally, tends to come into play with Robotech’s latter two sagas thanks to the questionable behavior of Supreme Commander Leonard (like sending subordinates on suicide missions for disagreeing with him) and obvious strategic failings like those of the UEEF leadership in the New Generation and RTSC.

(Of course, we’ve had some rather nasty real world examples lately via the F-35 program, which essentially only made it to completion and production thanks to massive ineptitude and lobbying dollars rather than on merit.)

To a certain extent, this apparently-questionable decisionmaking process is also a legacy of the adaptation process. The creators of Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross were rather open about the Logan and most of the other Southern Cross Army equipment being pretty poor on the battlefield. Genesis Climber MOSPEADA suffers a bit because the creators had not intended for the Legioss Armo-Fighter to be so prominent in the show, its greater role had been forced on the production by its toy partners who were casting envious looks at Takatoku’s huge sales of Macross VF-1 toys… so a rather poorly thought-out mecha intended to be nearly a one-and-done item ended up being included throughout the series.



xunk16 wrote:
The feeling's mutual. I guess I just like the Alpha a lot... Also the Logans... But those will probably be written out entirely by Remix.

Yeah, I wouldn’t hold out hope for the Logans… Robotech Remix’s creative direction looks to be playing it safe by sticking as close to Macross as possible.



xunk16 wrote:
And I'm still not buying that the writers will just completely abandon the "suspense / risk factor", because they draw one design instead of another.

My suspicion is that’s why they’ve decided to make the new antagonist a Macross-ized take on the Robotech Masters and not the Invid. The Invid are a bit like Dan Hibiki from the Street Fighter series… a joke inclusion that can be lethal under very specific circumstances, but are otherwise a pushover. In the previous comic, they depicted the Invid as being weak enough for someone to take their mecha out in hand to hand combat with relative ease.



xunk16 wrote:
Plus that new Timeline, if it does move on using only the future of the YF-4s, might just be as screwed as the previous one.

I doubt they’d take that route, because the whole point of the ending of the previous series and the start of this one is that they’ve finally hit an escape condition for the time loop that created so many bad futures of forever war that are the previous Robotech body of work. What they’re doing is a newer, more optimstic, more Macross-like take on Robotech’s setting.



xunk16 wrote:
By the way, Merry Holidays of your choice too! :wink:

And a Happy Holidays to you as well, sir.





ShadowLogan wrote:
A Fail-Safe Switch would not work with Shadow Technology per dialogue in Robotech Ep83.

Sue Grahm-Ep83 (emphasis mine): "Well let me show you you can see from this graphic representation that the protoculture generator has been designed with a fourth-dimensional configuration making the Shadow Fighters invisible to the Invid it’s that simple we're trying to give the survivors on Earth some hope by letting them in what's happening with Admiral Hunter's fleet"

The Shadow Device is integrated into the protoculture generator, [...]

In all fairness, the entire nature of the shadow stealth effect changed between the original series’ adaptation of Genesis Climber MOSPEADA and Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles.

The take on shadow stealth in the TV series follow that of the MOSPEADA story in being a passive stealth effect derived from design changes to the aircraft’s power system. Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles retconned this into a separate, active stealth system that worked like (and which the RPG refers to as) a cloaking device and is called out as a separate system that can be turned on and off without compromising the rest of the aircraft’s operation.



ShadowLogan wrote:
He doesn't have to go to that route. What he could do is use this literal foreknowledge is to address the issues and IMPROVE the Alpha fighter so it can be more effective.

In theory. But the problems with the Alpha are with the fundamental assumptions which it had been designed around… the “more ships with more missiles kill more aliens” reasoning which Lisa alludes to in the comic. The idea that you can compromise performance in the name of reducing cost and fight an exclusively short-ranged battle against numerically superior foes.

Removing those incorrect/unworkable fundamental assumptions from the Alpha’s design would entail essentially throwing the entire design out and starting over from scratch.



ShadowLogan wrote:
The Alpha design has seen changes/improvements in terms of its aerodynamics and engines (VF-6H/I to VF-6Z), so we know the design can be altered in these areas to offer improvements the engineers just have to improve upon this further.

These are relatively low-key internal changes… slight improvements in airframe shape and a minor improvement in engine power. That’s not the same thing as totally reworking the basic design of the entire aircraft and the concept of how it’s supposed to operate.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Weapons selection can also have work done, they could give it external hardpoints for heavy missiles (reflex warheads), mode limiting they might be (and in that regard the AJAC would be the only on screen Veritech w/o a mode limiting configuration option). [...]

What can actually be done on this score is very VERY limited because of how compact and how densely packaged the systems in the Alpha fighter are, and because of how small and limited its wing area is. That’s why, when the designers were toying with toy features, the only place which they could put external missiles was under the intakes, which even then constrained the size of those missiles significantly due to the limited ground clearance of the fighter and the way that its transformation has very limited clearance in that area in other modes.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Does fDana have actual evidence that a YF-4 is the way to go, or is it more of we know how A turns out so B has to be the better option though I can't prove it?

Given the dialog in the comic? Yes. They make specific reference to test data which apparently strongly corroborated Dana’s point, and was apparently what motivated the decision to transfer the VF-X-6 program budget to the YF-4.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Here's the thing is the UEEF equipment actually fundamentally inferior/unsuitable or is it actually a reflection of poor training and planning on the UEEF's part?

What makes you assume it’s not both? I mean, there’s a pretty clear argument that the UEEF’s equipment was about as unsuitable for fighting the Invid as it could possibly get. No long range ordnance, no medium range ordnance, just short-range party snaps barely more powerful than infantry-carried light antipersonnel rockets and a beam gun. That’s a terrible setup for fighting numerically superior foes.

That the UEEF never addressed this obvious tactical and strategic shortcoming and just plows ahead with a mindless war of attrition anyway is a strong argument that the people at the top of the organization are idiots.



ShadowLogan wrote:
The Beta's ability to carry LRMs went un-used preventing the use of the MYTHICAL* Anti-Swarm LRM attack for the 2nd and 3rd Offensives is an example where they where not properly equipped.

*I say it is Mythical for Robotech because it never happens in Robotech Ep1-36 that I can recall. Do you have an episode number and timecode?

As you know, the main example I’m referring to is from Macross proper where the UN Spacy used this kind of tactic to considerable effect against the Zentradi and other foes like the Vajra in many different titles.

That said, this kind of tactic was used with moderate success against formations of Zentradi ships in episodes 1 and 27 (by SF-3A Lancer II’s and VF-1 Valkyries) and a similar approach for saturation bombardment being used against large formations of mecha in episode 30 by Britai’s forces to wipe out the majority of the factory satellite’s defenders.



ShadowLogan wrote:
You also have examples of "OVERKILL" in terms of Alpha missile barrages to get 1 or 2 kills, though we know the full barrage can be quite effective when used properly (EP81 has Rook and Rand getting a combined ~36 onscreen kills with it, which effectively ends the battle where dialogue puts the odds at 30:1 so the kill count might actually be higher in actual practice).

Point of order, Rook and Rand were not fighting in massed combat against thousands or tens of thousands of Invid as part of a formation, they were fighting against a few dozen Invid in a local conflict while the bulk of Invid forces were elsewhere. It’s not a fair comparison. The Invid are a much more managable foe for the UEEF troops when they’re encountered in twos and threes in combat behind the lines rather than when Johnny Space Lobster and his fifty thousand best mates are coming to rearrange your face in orbit where there’s nowhere to run or hide.



ShadowLogan wrote:
If anything the UEEF equipment and tactics does in part seem to be a reflection of the "successful" approaches used in TMS by the SDF-1. The SDF-1 sent out fighters to counter enemy mecha (no different than the UEEF), and took a lessons learned approach given the Alpha SRM capacity is equal to a standard VF-1 (assuming the 15shot-pod cribbed from SDF:M, instead of the often animated 3shot per pylong config)[...]

It’s actually quite different from the approaches used in the series though. The VF-1s typically sortied with twelve AMM-1 Arrow missiles on their pylons. Those are medium-range missiles, which can be uprated to long-range missiles with modular rocket motors and take a variety of different seeker heads and warheads for various purposes.

Even in DYRL?, the UN Spacy’s approach to the Zentradi was mostly a mix of long and short ranged munitions. Typically four RMS-1 long range thermonuclear reaction missiles, a pair of UUM-7 micro-missile pods (2x15 SRMs), and then the Super Pack (2x12 + 2x3 SRMs) or the Strike Pack (1x12 + 2x3 SRMS, 1 heavy beam cannon). The only time they went up against anyone with just SRMs, it was when they were facing a fight where THEY had the numerical superiority against a single Metrandi warship.

_________________
Macross2.net - Home of the Macross Mecha Manual

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:54 am
  

User avatar
Wanderer

Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:40 am
Posts: 85
Thanks for the last two very informative posts.

_________________
On the wrong forum, 30 years too late...


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:45 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 6338
Location: WI
Seto wrote:
To be brutally frank, a lot of the time these things don’t even make sense in context thanks to the cut-and-paste nature of the adaptation. The explanation for why the Alpha was adopted doesn’t even make sense when you look at the specs or the design, and the RPG had to reach to some pretty bizarre places to justify the existence of any of the Southern Cross mecha.

Some of this could have been mitigated by not C&Ping from the OSM to the extent they did. They could improve the NG and TRM mechas specs to make it make sense in reality (for example).

Seto wrote:
In theory. But the problems with the Alpha are with the fundamental assumptions which it had been designed around… the “more ships with more missiles kill more aliens” reasoning which Lisa alludes to in the comic. The idea that you can compromise performance in the name of reducing cost and fight an exclusively short-ranged battle against numerically superior foes.

Removing those incorrect/unworkable fundamental assumptions from the Alpha’s design would entail essentially throwing the entire design out and starting over from scratch.

I do not think they have to throw out the entire design and start from scratch. The 3-main drawbacks of the Alpha basically boil down to:
-it needs better propulsion/engines
-it needs to be able to carry heavier weapons
-it needs better aerodynamics

We've had multiple discussions on these aspects. Putting in new engines is possible, in theory they could put even more powerful engines in than they did with the -Z (in the real world the F-14 engine change increased thrust 30%, the -Z got what 11%&6% increases respectively so the F-14 example suggests room for more improvement maybe possible). Heavier weapon options are possible (intake stations, adapt gunpod stations, adapt the FAST Pack stations, install wing stations that limit mode). Aerodynamics changes to the fuselage are likely more limited in what can be done, but they can give it a new wing design and/or install canards (both of which have been done in the real world). We don't need to go over it again, but there is ample real-world precedent that they could change the Alpha design to address it's short comings.

Seto wrote:
That’s why, when the designers were toying with toy features, the only place which they could put external missiles was under the intakes, which even then constrained the size of those missiles significantly due to the limited ground clearance of the fighter and the way that its transformation has very limited clearance in that area in other modes.

Technically the toy makers would have other options for external missiles, most notably the wings with the mode restriction on storage/use*. Other unconventional station options also exist.

*For Moseada (and even RT or Macross itself) configurations that restrict modes where a thing (the MOSPEADAs themselve can't transform w/o rider in body armor) so it isn't like it would be out of place for the setting.

Seto wrote:
What makes you assume it’s not both? I mean, there’s a pretty clear argument that the UEEF’s equipment was about as unsuitable for fighting the Invid as it could possibly get.

I don' t think we can say its both (in general) because on paper the Alpha/Beta are suitable for fighting the Invid, with the right tactic/strategies that cater to them and not the Invid. Did the UEEF use the Alpha/Beta capabilities in the best way to engage the Invid?... frankly NO. This means the results they got are more derived not from their equipment but training and planing and skill level.

Seto wrote:
hat said, this kind of tactic was used with moderate success against formations of Zentradi ships in episodes 1 and 27 (by SF-3A Lancer II’s and VF-1 Valkyries) and a similar approach for saturation bombardment being used against large formations of mecha in episode 30 by Britai’s forces to wipe out the majority of the factory satellite’s defenders.

I know it was used to counter capital ships (Ep1 & 27 & 30), but I am asking about using a single missile (of this caliber) to intentionally kill multiple one-person mechas that are operating independently. The use of guns to saturate an area doesn't really count like in Ep30 (or Ep26 or Ep5). It certainly is a tactic RT could adopt, but the precedent is that they use Anti-Ship missiles to kill capital ships not formations of deployed mecha.

[quote="Seto"]Point of order, Rook and Rand were not fighting in massed combat against thousands or tens of thousands of Invid as part of a formation, they were fighting against a few dozen Invid in a local conflict while the bulk of Invid forces were elsewhere. It’s not a fair comparison. The Invid are a much more managable foe for the UEEF troops when they’re encountered in twos and threes in combat behind the lines rather than when Johnny Space Lobster and his fifty thousand best mates are coming to rearrange your face in orbit where there’s nowhere to run or hide.]/quote]
The fact is R&R scene establishes that the Alpha's capabilities are not necessarily being using to the fullest extent. While the scale of the R&R scene is more small scale there is no reason to think that it could not be scaled up to squadron level or higher.

If the R&R scene in Hird Gun is taken at face value, then the 2 Alphas wiped out 30:1 odds. Now carry that out you only need ~36 Alphas to contend with each 1,000 Invid. This means an single Ikazuchi could deal with 4,000 Invid just from the Alpha Quick Launch Bay mecha (never mind in RT it has ~3x more undefined mecha it could deploy), and 21st MD's attack wing had at least 2 of these (on screen identifiable). Nothing in the R&R scene suggests it can not be scaled up in terms of number of Alpha participants to deal with large formations. Mind you this is more of a "median" example given we could skewer pessimistic (~36 kills for 120missiles) or optimistic (each missile gets a kill) to base this on.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:33 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 am
Posts: 5241
Location: New Frontier Shipyard, Earth-Moon L5
Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
ShadowLogan wrote:
Some of this could have been mitigated by not C&Ping from the OSM to the extent they did. They could improve the NG and TRM mechas specs to make it make sense in reality (for example).

The problem with that idea is that it doesn’t resolve the problem, it just shifts the root cause from “the rationale for this mecha doesn’t exist” to “this mecha’s performance doesn’t match what’s in the show”.

Then, of course, you also have mecha like the Logan and Spartas where the designs have such obvious fatal flaws that there’s just no explaining them away.



ShadowLogan wrote:
I do not think they have to throw out the entire design and start from scratch. The 3-main drawbacks of the Alpha basically boil down to:
-it needs better propulsion/engines
-it needs to be able to carry heavier weapons
-it needs better aerodynamics

[...] We don't need to go over it again, but there is ample real-world precedent that they could change the Alpha design to address it's short comings.

As I’ve reiterated on previous discussions of that subject, the real-world precedent for that kind of refinement works because those real world aircraft are much larger and the vital systems for those aircraft aren’t as densely packed precisely in anticipation of having to accommodate that kind of upgrade. The Alpha’s design just does not have that kind of “wiggle room”. It’s packed so tight a tardigrade would find it claustrophobic.



ShadowLogan wrote:
I don' t think we can say its both (in general) because on paper the Alpha/Beta are suitable for fighting the Invid, with the right tactic/strategies that cater to them and not the Invid.

I’m not sure how you can argue that the Alpha and/or Beta are suitable for fighting the Invid “on paper”. Their overwhelming design focus on exclusively short-ranged combat plays directly into the Invid’s strengths and leaves them painfully vulnerable to a numerically superior foe. They’re only really working with an advantage if they’re fighting the Invid one on one, which is nothing at all like what they would expect to encounter in the field.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Did the UEEF use the Alpha/Beta capabilities in the best way to engage the Invid?... frankly NO. This means the results they got are more derived not from their equipment but training and planing and skill level.

The UEEF used the Alpha to the fullest extent of its abilities against the Invid, but even their best and most unorthodox aces struggled and were swiftly overwhelmed and killed because they had been forced to fight at a disadvantage by the limitations of their own weapons. If you try to fight an enemy with a significant numerical advantage at close range, they’ll mob you with the weight of their numbers and overwhelm you sooner rather than later.

Regardless of training, the bigger problem is that the Alpha lacks the range to not get mobbed in short order, it’s very limited in its ability to target more than one enemy at a time in the TV series (the more Macross-y take in RTSC fixed this, but it wasn’t enough to actually solve the other problems), it lacks the staying power to deal with a sustained Invid attack, and it lacks the ability to reliably run away in the event that things go south. Top aces, veterans, and war heroes were out there dying right alongside the rank and file cannon fodder in either version of the story as a direct result of the Alpha’s lacking capabilities that played to the Invid’s strengths.



ShadowLogan wrote:
I know it was used to counter capital ships (Ep1 & 27 & 30), but I am asking about using a single missile (of this caliber) to intentionally kill multiple one-person mechas that are operating independently. The use of guns to saturate an area doesn't really count like in Ep30 (or Ep26 or Ep5). It certainly is a tactic RT could adopt, but the precedent is that they use Anti-Ship missiles to kill capital ships not formations of deployed mecha.

Humanity knows full well how massively destructive those weapons are and how wide an area they can devastate… so even if the precedent isn’t there right off the bat, it’s insane that they’d overlook such an obvious solution to the Invid problem.



ShadowLogan wrote:
The fact is R&R scene establishes that the Alpha's capabilities are not necessarily being using to the fullest extent. While the scale of the R&R scene is more small scale there is no reason to think that it could not be scaled up to squadron level or higher.

What it establishes is that Rook and Rand were fighting against an Invid force small enough that they could afford to take the time necessary to set up that kind of massed barrage with no fear of being overwhelmed by thousands of other Invid. They’re fighting behind the lines, against a tiny Invid patrol force of a few dozen. The stakes are much lower, and if you count the actual swarm they’re shooting at Rand overestimated their numbers by a factor of 2… or he forgot to count his newly arrived support when he said that. Two Alpha fighters, given plenty of prep time, shot off all of their missiles (120) and scored approximately 30 kills. That’s an efficiency of 25%.



ShadowLogan wrote:
If the R&R scene in Hird Gun is taken at face value, then the 2 Alphas wiped out 30:1 odds. Now carry that out you only need ~36 Alphas to contend with each 1,000 Invid. This means an single Ikazuchi could deal with 4,000 Invid just from the Alpha Quick Launch Bay mecha (never mind in RT it has ~3x more undefined mecha it could deploy), and 21st MD's attack wing had at least 2 of these (on screen identifiable).

Corrected for what’s actually shown, that’s 15:1 odds or a little less… and that required them to expend ALL of their missiles.

So, the perfect world assumption for a TV Ikazuchi-class would be that they could take down 2,160 Invid before running out of missiles. That’s about a 5:1 advantage over the Invid in terms of ship carrying capacity. The problem is that that’s a perfect world scenario, where this massive barrage is evenly distributed and so are the targets. It also assumes that those are the only foes on the battlefield. It’s only 2:1 for the RTSC version. Even if this works, if there are other Invid on the battlefield the UEEF troops are now practically sitting ducks.

This is what I talked about earlier on, when I described the Alpha as practically being single use. Yeah, you can score a few kills getting up close and just spamming every missile onboard, but if you do that you’re left vulnerable once you’re done and because you had to be so close to them to DO that their reinforcements will be literally on you in a matter of a second or two. It worked for Rook and Rand because the three dozen or so Invid that attacked were it, there weren’t any more around, and those Invid obligingly didn’t charge them the way we see them doing at other times in the show.

If training is a problem, it’s only a problem because they’re being trained in unrealistic or simply unworkable tactics dictated by the use of weapons that are unsuitable for the battlefield.

_________________
Macross2.net - Home of the Macross Mecha Manual

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:55 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 6338
Location: WI
Seto wrote:
The problem with that idea is that it doesn’t resolve the problem, it just shifts the root cause from “the rationale for this mecha doesn’t exist” to “this mecha’s performance doesn’t match what’s in the show”.

I disagree, you know I've attempted to estimate the acceleration profiles of the various VFs and found scenes that give the respective mecha a much higher rating that the OSM stats. The existence of data like this sort nullifies that argument because what is "shown" doesn't necessarily agree with the written stats.

Seto wrote:
As I’ve reiterated on previous discussions of that subject, the real-world precedent for that kind of refinement works because those real world aircraft are much larger and the vital systems for those aircraft aren’t as densely packed precisely in anticipation of having to accommodate that kind of upgrade. The Alpha’s design just does not have that kind of “wiggle room”. It’s packed so tight a tardigrade would find it claustrophobic.

This argument doesn't really work, if it did we wouldn't keep coming back to it. We know they have made changes to the internal design of the unit (Shadow series) with the removal of the retractable shoulder pod and VTOL hardware and the Drone itself has new pop-up launchers (never mind external changes). Then there are the various external changes we can note between models. Replacing the engines with more powerful ones just means the engines have to be designed to fit the preexisting cavities. That they can't do a new wing doesn't hold either since most of the hardward is tightly packed into the fuselage/limbs and not the wings (per the technical cutaways). Even adding hardpoints for heavier weapons doesn't hold given SSF's FAST Packs or the various working gunpod stations that we know exist that could be repurposed for this role.

Seto wrote:
I’m not sure how you can argue that the Alpha and/or Beta are suitable for fighting the Invid “on paper”. Their overwhelming design focus on exclusively short-ranged combat plays directly into the Invid’s strengths and leaves them painfully vulnerable to a numerically superior foe. They’re only really working with an advantage if they’re fighting the Invid one on one, which is nothing at all like what they would expect to encounter in the field.


It's that missile endurance for short-range combat actually. A payload of 48 or 60 SRMs still outclass the range abilities of all known Invid mecha except ones the Stage5 operate and those are a post 2042 design. So the NG units focus on a large payload of shorter range ordnance gives them an advantage over ones that can shoot at them from farther with a smaller payload. The use of longer range (MRM or LRM) comes with several drawbacks, one of which is the longer flight time means the Invid could disperse to nullify the ability of the warhead to get a Buy-One-Get-ONE-MORE (or better) free.

Seto wrote:
The UEEF used the Alpha to the fullest extent of its abilities against the Invid

No I do not think they did. Ep61 has various generic Alphas favoring their gunpods over their missiles, Ep84-5 Alphas (shadow and non) favored their gunpods over missiles. Even if we ignore a R&R-style synchronized strike, these UEEF pilots are not using their Alpha to the fullest extent. They certainly had time in Ep61/84-5 to setup an R&R-style synchronized strike.

Seto wrote:
Humanity knows full well how massively destructive those weapons are and how wide an area they can devastate… so even if the precedent isn’t there right off the bat, it’s insane that they’d overlook such an obvious solution to the Invid problem.

I agree they know and I'm sure it has been proposed, but it does not seem to be something they do as SOP which is my point. No faction in Robotech does it, not 3 generations of humans, not 4 different alien races, presumably not the Sentinels alliance either. What is interesting though is that both the Zentreadi and the Masters use massive gun barrages to saturate an area to kill formations of mecha, the SDF-1 did use the Main Gun. A more effective method is for the UEEF/UEDF to use beam cannons to attack transports instead of missiles (that could be dodged or they could scatter to dilute effectiveness) or equip their ships to deliver saturation barrages like the Zentreadi and Masters are known to employ.

Seto wrote:
Corrected for what’s actually shown, that’s 15:1 odds or a little less… and that required them to expend ALL of their missiles.

Actually what is shown is 18:1 odds (36 total kills between 2 of them can be counted on screen). 18 using 60 missiles, or 3.33 missiles per kill which is a bit better than the VF-1 firing 4 MRMs for one kill in TRMS which is shown on a few occasions (and the FAST PACKs SRMs are shown to operate in 4:1 ratio). The main problem with assessing the validity of the Hired Gun scene comes down to how to define the base to extrapolate it outward. I know if we go pessimistic and use the visual count the effective numbers drop, but if we go to optimistic (1:1) the numbers can also climb, then there's the middle road based on dialogue implications which I used. I don't dispute pessimistic can't be used, but regardless it shows the Alpha is theoretically more capable that what it was typically shown.

Seto wrote:
If training is a problem, it’s only a problem because they’re being trained in unrealistic or simply unworkable tactics dictated by the use of weapons that are unsuitable for the battlefield.

Training is a problem. If there are examples of your pilot firing off a volley of missiles (4+) at point-blank range (they can see the mecha in front of them) and they miss, I would say that is a training problem. If there are examples of pilots not using missiles instead favoring their gunpod, I'd say there is a training problem (though they might have already expended their missiles off screen or not had any but no way to know on a case-by-case basis). In Ep84 Scott remarks to Lancer that the army flyboys appear to be a little rusty, I'd call that a training issue. When a pair of irregular trained pilots (R&R) appear to do better than properly trained pilots (green grunts seen in Ep84-5, &61) in the Alpha I'd call that a training issue (we can call plot shields for R&R, but still).

Unworkable tactics I would also put down as a partial training issue, especially if the UEEF has experience fighting the Invid (which is suggested in Ep61). Those soldiers would in theory be practicing those tactics as part of training exercises. It seems unlikely the UEEF's Invasion attempts did not at least have dress rehearsals elsewhere (Mars, Tirol, Random-World). So some where there is a training issue.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:07 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 am
Posts: 5241
Location: New Frontier Shipyard, Earth-Moon L5
Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
ShadowLogan wrote:
Seto wrote:
The problem with that idea is that it doesn’t resolve the problem, it just shifts the root cause from “the rationale for this mecha doesn’t exist” to “this mecha’s performance doesn’t match what’s in the show”.

I disagree, you know I've attempted to estimate the acceleration profiles of the various VFs and found scenes that give the respective mecha a much higher rating that the OSM stats. The existence of data like this sort nullifies that argument because what is "shown" doesn't necessarily agree with the written stats.

Key word: “attempted”. As you no doubt recall, on examination your methodology didn’t hold up at all because your conclusion depended on so many different unverifiable assumptions that the conclusions you reached were worse than meaningless.



ShadowLogan wrote:
This argument doesn't really work, if it did we wouldn't keep coming back to it. We know they have made changes to the internal design of the unit (Shadow series) [...]

That’s an Apples-and-Oranges comparison and you know it.

What you were talking about, and what I replied to, was an assertion that there’s room to rework the Alpha’s design WITHOUT compromising its feature set. Your counterexamples here are not even the same type of change… the modifications to the platform for the Shadow variant and its unmanned variant involved significant excisions of hardware from the design to make room for a new feature. They didn’t just drop the shadow device in, they had to remove whole systems just to make room, like the VTOL nozzles and half the fighter’s sensor systems. To make the drone, they had to redesign half the aircraft including axing the monitor turret and entire cockpit block. That’s so far removed from what we’re talking about that it’s not a valid example.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Replacing the engines with more powerful ones just means the engines have to be designed to fit the preexisting cavities.

And that space constraint greatly limits what you can do to improve engine power… because the thrust from the engines comes from the turbine’s ability to compress and heat intake air. One of the key limiting factors is the volume of air flowing through the engine. Modern fighter designs have extra space in the engine bay specifically to allow for different models of engine to be put on that might be larger, or slightly longer, or have different orientations of compressors, etc. On the Alpha, you don’t have the luxury of that unused space.



ShadowLogan wrote:
That they can't do a new wing doesn't hold either since most of the hardward is tightly packed into the fuselage/limbs and not the wings (per the technical cutaways).

That’s not the reason it doesn’t work… the reason it doesn’t work is the transformation. The wings have to be short enough not to interfere with the waist traversal.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Even adding hardpoints for heavier weapons doesn't hold given SSF's FAST Packs or the various working gunpod stations that we know exist that could be repurposed for this role.

The FAST Packs are for space use only and are very VERY limited even compared to the VF-1’s FAST packs, and the gunpod stations aren’t attached to the wings either… they’re part of the body and specifically designed to keep as much wing surface free as possible. Not only is it not a counterargument, it actually affirms the existence of the problem I’m stating.



ShadowLogan wrote:
It's that missile endurance for short-range combat actually.

My good chap, the range of the missiles isn’t the problem in and of itself.

It’s not that the missiles don’t outrange the Invid’s ability to fire back if the Alpha and an Invid are standing still… it’s that the range is so short relative to the speeds of the Alpha and Invid that the difference between engagement range with missiles and hand-to-hand range for the Invid is just a second or two. You can absolutely shoot them slightly before they can attack you back, but to be frank the problem is that the ones you DIDN’T hit will be literally on top of you before the one you DID hit has even finished exploding.



ShadowLogan wrote:
The use of longer range (MRM or LRM) comes with several drawbacks, one of which is the longer flight time means the Invid could disperse to nullify the ability of the warhead to get a Buy-One-Get-ONE-MORE (or better) free.

That’s assuming all things are equal, though… the bigger, longer-ranged missile is also going to have a more powerful rocket motor that offers greater acceleration and a greater initial velocity.

True, the Invid could disperse but that’s only an issue if you’re firing one or two. If you’re firing a dozen or two in a nice wide spread you can blanket the area and achieve similar results to what Britai did against the factory satellite garrison anyway. If the blast’s as big and as nasty as what we see in episodes 1 and 27, evasive action won’t even be adequate to save them because the blasts are kilometers across and even a near miss is fatal for warships never mind something as lightly armored as an Invid.



ShadowLogan wrote:
No I do not think they did. Ep61 has various generic Alphas favoring their gunpods over their missiles, Ep84-5 Alphas (shadow and non) favored their gunpods over missiles.

Missiles are a limited commodity, gunpod ammunition less so. That’s evidence of good training, not the opposite. They’re not spamming all their ammo right away. Spraying and praying isn’t good enough in practice.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Actually what is shown is 18:1 odds (36 total kills between 2 of them can be counted on screen).

15:1, one formation shows 18 and the other only twelve. It’s not a mirrored cel.



ShadowLogan wrote:
I don't dispute pessimistic can't be used, but regardless it shows the Alpha is theoretically more capable that what it was typically shown.

But only with a tactic that involves hurling every weapon you have at the enemy right away and leaving yourself vulnerable for the entire rest of the battle… which no commander would order. That’s an all-or-nothing strategy.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Training is a problem. If there are examples of your pilot firing off a volley of missiles (4+) at point-blank range (they can see the mecha in front of them) and they miss, I would say that is a training problem.

Are you sure? Because real fighter pilots would gently remind you they’re called “MISSiles” for a reason. Almost without exception, we see these pilots firing only with a target lock. That means the missiles missing is an equipment problem and not a training one… unless these are SARH, in which case it’s technically both.



ShadowLogan wrote:
In Ep84 Scott remarks to Lancer that the army flyboys appear to be a little rusty, I'd call that a training issue. When a pair of irregular trained pilots (R&R) appear to do better than properly trained pilots (green grunts seen in Ep84-5, &61) in the Alpha I'd call that a training issue (we can call plot shields for R&R, but still).

That’s a pretty massive case of plot armor… and I wouldn’t take it too seriously either, given that it’s pretty typical soldierly ribbing for soldiers in the field to dismiss new arrivals as green or rusty. Scott, of course, got massively lucky in that he did all his fighting behind the lines where the Invid aren’t as numerous and that he lucked out into finding diamond-in-the-rough aces in waiting while wandering towards Reflex Point.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Unworkable tactics I would also put down as a partial training issue, especially if the UEEF has experience fighting the Invid (which is suggested in Ep61).

The training itself isn’t the problem in that case though, that’s a case of leadership level stupid.

_________________
Macross2.net - Home of the Macross Mecha Manual

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:54 pm
  

User avatar
Adventurer

Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:34 pm
Posts: 405
Has anyone actually play-tested the Zentraedi vs. the Invid using the Robotech rules?

_________________
My enemies ride fast, knowing not, that ride is their last

Image


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:34 am
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 am
Posts: 5241
Location: New Frontier Shipyard, Earth-Moon L5
Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
Peacebringer wrote:
Has anyone actually play-tested the Zentraedi vs. the Invid using the Robotech rules?

Well, yeah… the math is straightforward enough and RAW it’s pretty one-sided, though it’s not as one-sided as it would be in the show since the RPG treats everything like it’s a hero mecha.

Your garden variety Invid has no ranged weapons to speak of and its average mega-damage in one attack is 3.5MD. With just four attacks per melee, its average MD/melee is 14 and its peak damage output is 24 MD/melee. It would take between 5 and 9 melee rounds for a lone Invid’s attacks to fell a single Zentradi soldier in body armor and 6 to 9 melee rounds to fell one Regult in combat, assuming every attack landed.

Your garden variety Zentradi warrior has a rifle with a range of over a kilometer, he has five (or more) attacks, and his average MD/attack is 16.5 for a single shot and 75 when firing with five round bursts. With five attacks per melee round, that’s an average of 82.5MD/melee in single fire or 375MD/melee when firing five rounds rapid. Assuming all attacks land, with single shot fire he can take out any rank-and-file Invid in 2-3 melee rounds or 2-3 melee attacks with five rounds rapid. A Zentradi rando in a stock Regult’s gonna have 6-8 attacks, and his average MD/attack is 25 for single shot and 50 for a twin shot with knockback. Any rank-and-file Invid can be taken down in 1 melee round with between 2 and 4 attacks.

With these nice round number averages in mind, the Invid are totally screwed. The Regult’s flight speed is 28% faster than the fastest Invid mecha and more than double that of the next fastest Invid mecha, which combined with the longer range of its weapons, means a Zentradi can literally just reverse away from the Invid at half throttle (or less) and destroy an unlimited number of Invid who are incapable of ever reaching weapons range. On the ground, it’s less unfair because RAW incorrectly states the Regult can’t fly in an atmosphere, but the Invid are still going to need at least a 12:1 numerical superiority to break even. (This, of course, is all assuming the Zentradi are inexplicably determined to fight fair and don’t just bombard all the Invid to death from tens or hundreds of thousands of kilometers away.)

_________________
Macross2.net - Home of the Macross Mecha Manual

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:07 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 6338
Location: WI
Seto wrote:
Key word: “attempted”. As you no doubt recall, on examination your methodology didn’t hold up at all because your conclusion depended on so many different unverifiable assumptions that the conclusions you reached were worse than meaningless.

While there are issues, and I do not dispute that, its still telling that the results don't line up with the written record.

Seto wrote:
What you were talking about, and what I replied to, was an assertion that there’s room to rework the Alpha’s design WITHOUT compromising its feature set

The thing the Alpha's lack of BVR weapons and its relative under powered engines are features of the design we want to change, which means its feature set has to change along with it.

Seto wrote:
And that space constraint greatly limits what you can do to improve engine power… because the thrust from the engines comes from the turbine’s ability to compress and heat intake air. One of the key limiting factors is the volume of air flowing through the engine. Modern fighter designs have extra space in the engine bay specifically to allow for different models of engine to be put on that might be larger, or slightly longer, or have different orientations of compressors, etc. On the Alpha, you don’t have the luxury of that unused space.

If we dive into the F-14 example a bit, the original P&W TF30 engine is bigger than its replacement in the GE F110. And as previously mentioned the GE engine delivers 30% more thrust, and in a smaller package to boot. This example might be an outlier, but it shows it can be done.

You are assuming they have designed the JG/ATF engines for maximum performance at that size, when they could have sacrificed performance for ease of maintance (we know the Alpha is easy to maintain given Lunk's ability to maintain 4 combat ready units for over a year in the field).

Seto wrote:
That’s not the reason it doesn’t work… the reason it doesn’t work is the transformation. The wings have to be short enough not to interfere with the waist traversal.

The bigger question is what form the new wing should take, because without that we can't know how it will impact the transformation. I'd also point out the wings themselves could transform/fold up as part of the transformation to avoid the issue or cut into what ever margin the designers originally put in.

Seto wrote:
The FAST Packs are for space use only and are very VERY limited even compared to the VF-1’s FAST packs, and the gunpod stations aren’t attached to the wings either… they’re part of the body and specifically designed to keep as much wing surface free as possible. Not only is it not a counterargument, it actually affirms the existence of the problem I’m stating.

What is stopping the UEEF from producing a missile firing "gunpod" for the Alpha to use those gunpod stations? In battloid mode the Alpha is ~4x bigger than a Cyclone, which we know has a 6-shot missile gunpod (RL-6). A straight re-scaled RL-6 for the Alpha could fire 240mm missiles (nearly as large as the 275mm MRM on the Logan), a purpose built design then should be able to match or exceed that size (360mm diameter missile, firing pod could fit on the upper station used by the Shadow Fighter's Destabilizer GP).

I think you miss understand the FAST PACK example, I know those specific modules are designed for space, but that does not mean the UEEF could not design something to use the connection ports for atmospheric (and space) use that isn't a FAST Pack.

Seto wrote:
it’s that the range is so short relative to the speeds of the Alpha and Invid that the difference between engagement range with missiles and hand-to-hand range for the Invid is just a second or two. You can absolutely shoot them slightly before they can attack you back, but to be frank the problem is that the ones you DIDN’T hit will be literally on top of you before the one you DID hit has even finished exploding.

And the Alpha can be targeting the Invid before they enter their missile flight range (if the 2E RPG is to be belived it has a radar with 200+ mile range). And actually the time is between 8 and 9 seconds assuming a Booster Scout at maximum speed (2E RPG) on a direct course with an Alpha (H) also at top speed (a non Booster Scout travels slower in space aside from the Stage5 mecha that the UEEF would not know about even in 2044) using the longest range SRM available.

Seto wrote:
That’s assuming all things are equal, though… the bigger, longer-ranged missile is also going to have a more powerful rocket motor that offers greater acceleration and a greater initial velocity.

With a longer trip time to target, unless of course you wait until your closer which brings us back to the smaller payload. (And I would point out by RAW in the RPG these missiles have flight times of 100s of seconds to cover maximum range).

Seto wrote:
Missiles are a limited commodity, gunpod ammunition less so. That’s evidence of good training, not the opposite. They’re not spamming all their ammo right away. Spraying and praying isn’t good enough in practice.

I agree missile supply is limited, but if you want to thin out the enemy quickly missiles seem to be the way to go, especially when you are out numbered.

Seto wrote:
Are you sure? Because real fighter pilots would gently remind you they’re called “MISSiles” for a reason. Almost without exception, we see these pilots firing only with a target lock. That means the missiles missing is an equipment problem and not a training one… unless these are SARH, in which case it’s technically both.


Given the proximity of the Invid mecha targeted I do think it would be a training issue because the Invid are directly in front of them at literal point blank range. Now Training might not be the only factor here, but it does seem to be a potential issue given we see it on both the Alpha and Cyclone.

Seto wrote:
The training itself isn’t the problem in that case though, that’s a case of leadership level stupid.

I agree the leadership isn't the smartest (what with Macross characters in charge, which is only slightly better than having Leonard in charge), but the training excersises and experiences should have highlighted areas where they need to improve and taken steps to address those issues. It isn't like the UEEF just decided to invade Earth 3 times on a whim with no thought or planning.

Peacebringer wrote:
Has anyone actually play-tested the Zentraedi vs. the Invid using the Robotech rules?

Play-tested No. Looked at the stats, yes. Regardless of if its 1E or 2E, the Invid are at some serious disadvantages in terms of range and damage output and this is just on the mecha scale. An Invid Transport can be plastered at range (the Invid would need to launch multiple transports for each Zentreadi ship), never mind the Hive force fields won't last long (and with no ability to return fire). Depending on edition, the Zentreadi might be at a disadvantage in terms of strike bonuses as they use PC (which the Invid have bonuses to strike against), but that might be offset from skills and level advancement and range.

Unless there is some 3rd faction of Invid with vastly different and better war fighting capability that we haven't been told about that engaged the Zentreadi, it really is a one-sided fight.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 4:25 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 am
Posts: 5241
Location: New Frontier Shipyard, Earth-Moon L5
Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
ShadowLogan wrote:
While there are issues, and I do not dispute that, it’s still telling that the results don't line up with the written record.

Less so once you account for the built-in bias that the entire methodology and the unfounded or unverifiable assumptions your entire data set was predicated upon were specifically chosen with the goal of producing a result that didn’t line up with the written record. There was no objectively verifiable foundation for your assumptions, so your results could be literally anything you wanted them to be.



ShadowLogan wrote:
The thing the Alpha's lack of BVR weapons and its relative under powered engines are features of the design we want to change, which means its feature set has to change along with it.

Assuming it’s even possible. I don’t have the CFD software to do a fully-detailed analysis, but in the case of wing-mounted ordnance it looks like a pretty unworkable situation given how little the Alpha has in terms of wing area.



ShadowLogan wrote:
If we dive into the F-14 example a bit, the original P&W TF30 engine is bigger than its replacement in the GE F110. And as previously mentioned the GE engine delivers 30% more thrust, and in a smaller package to boot. This example might be an outlier, but it shows it can be done.

Yes, but consider the massive difference in scale there… and the fact that the F-14’s design had been engineered around the adoption of a newer engine, with the TF30 being a reused stopgap for initial production.



ShadowLogan wrote:
You are assuming they have designed the JG/ATF engines for maximum performance at that size, when they could have sacrificed performance for ease of maintance (we know the Alpha is easy to maintain given Lunk's ability to maintain 4 combat ready units for over a year in the field).

I’m assuming the engines were designed for what the UEEF considers an acceptable balance of power vs. maintainability with the available cooling systems, inlets, nozzles, etc.

Nobody sane would order a military aircraft’s engines tuned all the way to the manufacturer’s red line, that’s just actively encouraging breakdowns. (If you recall, most of my previous math WRT the Alpha’s performance assumed a similar 100%+ safety margin to what the VF-1 has.)



ShadowLogan wrote:
The bigger question is what form the new wing should take, because without that we can't know how it will impact the transformation. I'd also point out the wings themselves could transform/fold up as part of the transformation to avoid the issue or cut into what ever margin the designers originally put in.

Given its already poor wing area, changing the wing design from its clipped delta configuration would be asking for trouble. The whole reason it has a clipped, tailed delta wing is because it’s desperately trying to maximize the lifting potential of its painfully small wings. The airframe’s so short that there aren’t really a lot of options to expand the wings while keeping an appropriate sweep, otherwise you’re just going to hurt the aircraft’s maneuverability and top speed.

(I had originally considered a folding wing similar to Macross’s Sukhoi/IAI/Dornier SV-51, but the problem is to enlarge the wing sufficiently to add several pylons safely you end up in another bad situation aerodynamically… as a borderline flying wing instead.)



ShadowLogan wrote:
What is stopping the UEEF from producing a missile firing "gunpod" for the Alpha to use those gunpod stations?

Apart from the idea that they need them for regular gunpods, and what a terrible idea that is?



ShadowLogan wrote:
I think you miss understand the FAST PACK example, I know those specific modules are designed for space, but that does not mean the UEEF could not design something to use the connection ports for atmospheric (and space) use that isn't a FAST Pack.

The Alpha’s already a drag factor nightmare… making it worse is a very bad idea for the pilot’s continued survival.



ShadowLogan wrote:
And the Alpha can be targeting the Invid before they enter their missile flight range (if the 2E RPG is to be belived it has a radar with 200+ mile range). And actually the time is between 8 and 9 seconds assuming a Booster Scout at maximum speed (2E RPG) on a direct course with an Alpha (H) also at top speed (a non Booster Scout travels slower in space aside from the Stage5 mecha that the UEEF would not know about even in 2044) using the longest range SRM available.

A point of order… the RPG doesn’t distinguish between search radar and target radar. What you’re citing is, for all practical purposes, the search radar range. The Alpha can see enemies coming at that range, but they can’t lock onto them until they’re within the missile’s range. The boilerplate missile table in the RPG is also a rather poor fit for many of the missiles in the show, with the Alpha’s ranges normally being depicted as much shorter than what the table claims for SRMs.



ShadowLogan wrote:
With a longer trip time to target, unless of course you wait until your closer which brings us back to the smaller payload. (And I would point out by RAW in the RPG these missiles have flight times of 100s of seconds to cover maximum range).

See the above about the boilerplate missile table problems, though the longer time to target is not normally much of an issue because the blast radius (in the show) is so large.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Given the proximity of the Invid mecha targeted I do think it would be a training issue because the Invid are directly in front of them at literal point blank range.

… I’d reiterate the previous “MISSiles” remark. Point-blank range is one of the easiest ranges to miss at with a guided missile, because missiles need a certain amount of lead time to turn using vectored rocket thrust and aerodynamic fins and it’s very easy for missiles to overshoot at such close ranges. Essentially, this kind of draws a line under what a terrible idea the Alphas design was, since it engages more or less exclusively at ultrashort ranges where a greater percentage of misses is all but guaranteed.

(Standard practice, esp. during the Vietnam War, was to always fire two missiles in short range dogfights… one radar seeker, and one infrared as insurance in the very likely event that one or the other would miss.)



ShadowLogan wrote:
I agree the leadership isn't the smartest (what with Macross characters in charge, which is only slightly better than having Leonard in charge), [...]

If nothing else, Robotech’s later sagas are a horror story about the Peter Principle… the top brass is infested with people who were ultra-rapidly promoted well above their actual levels of competence. (Seriously… Rick went from a new recruit to a Major General in twelve years or less.)



ShadowLogan wrote:
It isn't like the UEEF just decided to invade Earth 3 times on a whim with no thought or planning.

… given what happened when they sent reinforcements in the Masters Saga, I’m not sure I could say that with confidence.

_________________
Macross2.net - Home of the Macross Mecha Manual

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


          Top  
 
 
Post new topic Reply to topic



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users


Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group