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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:27 am
  

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Do they wear armor inside the pod? If so, would it be stupid to think that the pilots could eject and then engage in standard dismounted infantry combat?

Also, just skimming over the books, it really becomes apparent just how fast the Zentraedi are and how necessary the Veritechs are. The VF's were the only thing that could match the speed of the Zentraedi and then fight them on the ground. The combat power of a Zentraedi battalion (?) of 144 battlepods, 14 light artillery battlepods, 7 heavy artillery battlepods, one tactical recon pod and one officer's battlepod is pretty insane. The ability to engage targets at 100+ mph to a range of 100 miles vs aircraft and ground targets at 25 miles is pretty crazy. Any ground targets they could not kill, they could avoid...

Destroids could target ground targets only to 15 miles, and had no EW capability.

I realize that the game is primarily based on squad based combat, and the anime has the Zentraedi being severely hamstrung with the whole "don't destroy Zor's ship" thing...but against most enemy forces the Zentraedi would handily destroy them very quickly. With the new guerrilla warfare MOS, the tactical options really open up. Even a single destroyer with it's 1000 battlepods would absolutely devastate the Invid in ground conflict.

I suppose that the Invid focus on close quarter/melee conflict, lack of advanced EW systems to attack, disregard of casualties, and a rigid/biological hierarchy pretty much played into all the factors that the Zentraedi were weak in (as in, the majority of the Zentraedi enemies prior to the Invid were able to be attacked at range, with EW, with excessive casualties and by attacking the HQ units). The inability of those tactics to work against the Invid were able to compensate for their pretty lackluster combat abilities.

I wonder what the K/D ratios for the various forces were during the various wars....I suspect that the Invid were pretty low, since they didn't really seem to practice combined arms warfare, but I suppose that doesn't matter when your enemies guns run out of ammo and their barrels melt and they can't sleep for weeks of relentless onslaught. It makes the Invid far more terrifying to seem them as a nigh infinite, implacable force. They are even better than some other enemies because you can't reason with them, and all they want is your death...not even to eat you, just to kill you.

-STS

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:10 pm
  

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slade the sniper wrote:
Do they wear armor inside the pod? If so, would it be stupid to think that the pilots could eject and then engage in standard dismounted infantry combat?

Yes the pod's pilot wears body armor while operating. There are numerous examples one could point to in the animation:
-Ep2 has a pilot emerging from his Regult
-Grell/Geraro is shown/implied in Body Armor piloting a Regult several times
-Khyron is shown in body armor piloting a Glaug numerous times (and the Male Power Armor)
-the pilot of Exedore's Recon Regult emerges in full body armor on his diplomatic mission
-various full-size operators of Regults in the failed Deadelus Attack
-Cyclops Recon pilots wear armor ("Miss Macross") given the Zentreadi spies

IIRC the only Zentreadi mecha pilots NOT shown in body armor would be the female pilots pre-FoA (post FoA does have males w/o armor emerging from Regults but this period is hardly normal). I am not sure if a Gnerl Fighter Pod pilot is ever shown.

As far as ejecting (ala ejection seat/system) I don't think they could (it isn't shown or mentioned in the RPG), they could certainly get out of the pod via normal means if the pod became to badly damaged (Ep2 example, post-FOA example on New Portland).


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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:06 pm
  

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slade the sniper wrote:
Do they wear armor inside the pod?

Yes, as seen on many occasions in the animation and in the line art. You can see the helmet and shoes from the standard Zentradi body armor in this line art from Macross: Perfect Memory:
http://www.macross2.net/m3/sdfmacross/r ... ockpit.gif

The same is true for the battle suits and other mecha, since the standard Zentradi body armor doubles as a spacesuit. The Queadluun-Rau pilot suits do not have visible hard-armor segments due to operational requirements of the mecha, but may otherwise be just as tough as the standard Zentradi gear. (The upgraded versions seen in later Macross stories show Zentradi pilots operating them in standard body armor.)


slade the sniper wrote:
If so, would it be stupid to think that the pilots could eject and then engage in standard dismounted infantry combat?

Well, not for that reason... they can't eject because there is no ejection seat. The only way for the pilot to disembark is to manually open the hatch at the rear of the mecha and climb out, which was neither easy nor comfortable to do and was very difficult to do quickly. (The only instance I can think of of disembarking while under fire was in Macross: Do You Remember Love?, in which some nameless Zentradi grunt tried to pry open the front of his badly damaged Regult to attack Max's VF-1A Super Valkyrie... and got several new 55mm holes in his head for his trouble.


slade the sniper wrote:
Also, just skimming over the books, it really becomes apparent just how fast the Zentraedi are and how necessary the Veritechs are. The VF's were the only thing that could match the speed of the Zentraedi and then fight them on the ground. The combat power of a Zentraedi battalion (?) of 144 battlepods, 14 light artillery battlepods, 7 heavy artillery battlepods, one tactical recon pod and one officer's battlepod is pretty insane. The ability to engage targets at 100+ mph to a range of 100 miles vs aircraft and ground targets at 25 miles is pretty crazy. Any ground targets they could not kill, they could avoid...

The RPG's stats are, in this regard, largely arbitrary and/or wildly inaccurate.

The Tomahawk, for instance, was capable of engaging with its weapons while running at over 110mph... but prevailing tactics generally didn't call for it to do so because it spent most of the war in the role of an ad hoc anti-aircraft unit.


slade the sniper wrote:
Destroids could target ground targets only to 15 miles, and had no EW capability.

Correctly statted, the Monster's good out to over 180 miles... but most Destroids were made for short-range anti-aircraft defense or infantry-style land warfare, so it's not surprising their engagement ranges weren't especially long. The OSM Phalanx had electronic attack capabilities using its radar as a gamma wave irradiation weapon.


slade the sniper wrote:
I realize that the game is primarily based on squad based combat, and the anime has the Zentraedi being severely hamstrung with the whole "don't destroy Zor's ship" thing...but against most enemy forces the Zentraedi would handily destroy them very quickly. With the new guerrilla warfare MOS, the tactical options really open up. Even a single destroyer with it's 1000 battlepods would absolutely devastate the Invid in ground conflict.

Yup... this is carryover from the OSM, where the only thing keeping the Macross from being destroyed was the fact that the Zentradi were so curious about it and the possibility that its crew were survivors of the Zentradi's long-vanished creators. Without the kid gloves, the Zentradi will wreck pretty much anything through sheer numbers.


slade the sniper wrote:
I wonder what the K/D ratios for the various forces were during the various wars...

From the OSM, the VF-1 Valkyrie averaged about 12:1 against the Zentradi during the First Space War. That improved down the line when updates were made to the VF-1 to improve its active stealth system, engines, and other systems to counter Zentradi ECM, ECCM, and so on.

The OSM also paints a very unflattering picture of the Southern Cross Army in general, though the Logan gets singled out in particular by its creators and called no more effective than a mosquito against Bioroids (Marie's apparently being an exception by dint of main character status).


slade the sniper wrote:
It makes the Invid far more terrifying to seem them as a nigh infinite, implacable force.

The Invid get a lot less terrifying when it becomes evident how fragile they are, and how big of an idiot ball you'd have to hold to actually lose a war to a foe with no ranged weaponry and armor so weak even man-portable rockets and light anti-materiel weapons are instantly lethal.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:29 pm
  

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female power armor pilots do not wear the plate armor looking suits that we see the other mecha pilots employ, but they do have flightsuits with sealed helmets, suggesting enviromental armor of some sort. likely a similar style of "low profile" armor comparable in concept to the light armor protection built into the flightsuit of VF pilots. not tough enough to double as infantry armor (as with the battlepod pilots) but enough to protect the pilot some if their mecha is crippled.

and agreed that the pods do not appear to have anything like an ejection system.. in fact most of them don't even appear to have a separate pilot seat, instead the seats are built into the pod itself. which given how little the pods have inside aside from the pilot's seat and controls, is more or less inevitable. as mentioned though the standard pods are fairly easy to get out of. though the fact that the front hatch doubles as your glacis armor means that ease of entry and exit is probably part of why the pods are so easy to kill. the officers pod is a little bit tougher but not by that much. the power armors appear to be more involved in entry and exit but they are also a lot tougher and harder to hit.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:49 am
  

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Thanks for all the info. I would really love a good tactical/operational Robotech wargame (with all the factions included). Each faction would probably have a very different play style, even more so than some other sci-fantasy IPs.

-STS

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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:51 am
  

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I really like the 2e Zentraedi. Between the skills and variations on the Battle Pods makes them just a brutal enemy. With all the information in the books I just don't see how the Invid could actual beat them.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
slade the sniper wrote:
It makes the Invid far more terrifying to seem them as a nigh infinite, implacable force.

The Invid get a lot less terrifying when it becomes evident how fragile they are, and how big of an idiot ball you'd have to hold to actually lose a war to a foe with no ranged weaponry and armor so weak even man-portable rockets and light anti-materiel weapons are instantly lethal.

I think the Invid are pretty formidable on a planet when they outnumber you 5 or 10 to 1. But in space they are just meat. In Invid Invasion they can be brutally tough especially with protoculture detection but I don't see how they can fight an army like the Zentraedi.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:16 am
  

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the same way that a hurricane can't be killed by a nuclear bomb. the zentreadi fleet is designed to fight enemy fleets and bombard planets. they have limited point defense that works against mecha. (both in the canon and in the rpg). and their big anti-ship guns will have trouble targeting small mecha and unable to kill more than a few a time using extreme overkill.

the invid are nothing but mecha in combat. their clamships are pure transports and as seen in the show, just stay well outside of range whle digorging massive swarms of mecha. the big guns of the zentreadi ships will be unable to inflict enough damage to the swarm to have any real effect, and zentreadi mecha aren't in a much better position, given that invid mecha are much much smaller, and often faster and more agile. the invid would be able to take down zent warships using many of the same tactics that they used against the UEEF over earth. though the larger size of the zent fleets would require a lot more mecha than the earth reclimation fleets did.

that said, there is nothing in canon to suggest that the zentreadi ever actually fought the invid. and in the sentinels OVA the invid regent waited until the grand fleet was destroyed and the masters had taken their own fleet and army outside the empire before they attacked.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:22 pm
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
the invid are nothing but mecha in combat. their clamships are pure transports and as seen in the show, just stay well outside of range whle digorging massive swarms of mecha. the big guns of the zentreadi ships will be unable to inflict enough damage to the swarm to have any real effect, and zentreadi mecha aren't in a much better position, given that invid mecha are much much smaller, and often faster and more agile. the invid would be able to take down zent warships using many of the same tactics that they used against the UEEF over earth. though the larger size of the zent fleets would require a lot more mecha than the earth reclimation fleets did.

The Zentreadi can target those clamships. They launched an attack on ships in low Earth Orbit in Ep3 From Lunar Orbit (IIRC in Ep2 the bombard Macross Island from the same), that ability was nerfed in the 2E RPG (but still have guns reaching out >10,000 miles). I don't think the UEEF ships used in 21st MD in 2E have anything like this in terms of range (AFAIK only the SDF-4 has guns in Zentreadi level range, ignoring Syncros), so the Invid would have a harder time. They'd almost have to wait and deploy Booster Scouts (and this assumes the Zentreadi don't do any softening up attacks making deployment of those assets harder).


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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:02 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote:
slade the sniper wrote:
It makes the Invid far more terrifying to seem them as a nigh infinite, implacable force.

The Invid get a lot less terrifying when it becomes evident how fragile they are, and how big of an idiot ball you'd have to hold to actually lose a war to a foe with no ranged weaponry and armor so weak even man-portable rockets and light anti-materiel weapons are instantly lethal.

I think the Invid are pretty formidable on a planet when they outnumber you 5 or 10 to 1. But in space they are just meat. In Invid Invasion they can be brutally tough especially with protoculture detection but I don't see how they can fight an army like the Zentraedi.

That's just it... the Invid simply aren't capable of posing a significant threat unless you're stupid or suicidal enough to voluntarily opt to fight them on their terms.

The Earth Recapture Forces in the original Genesis Climber MOSPEADA didn't really have a choice but to fight the Inbit in ways that played to the Inbit's strengths because the technology available to Mars and the outer solar system colonies in 2083 simply wasn't advanced enough to allow any other kind of space war besides a landing operation. They'd only barely mastered interplanetary travel and laser weaponry, and their most advanced new weapon was a weaponized version of modern synchrotron particle accelerator technology. This becomes a bit of an adaptation-induced plot hole if we consider the Robotech setting, where humanity has access to things like beam weapons capable of precision bombardment at ranges exceeding a light second and it somehow never occurs to any strategist in the military's employ to install one or more batteries of those guns on the moon and use them to bombard Invid ships and surface targets with impunity. If even one person in the UEEF or UEDF thought about the problem objectively, the 3rd Robotech War would've been a hilarious turkey shoot against embarrassingly unprepared space crabs.

At double the listed maximum speed, an Invid carrier is capable of 3.594km/s. If they're even capable of doing more than shuttling ground forces up to low Earth orbit and can sustain that speed for an indefinite period, the artillery crews and ships operating on the moon will have over 29 1/2 hours to fire on the incoming enemy force before they're in any danger of being attacked themselves.

Of course, the strategic shortcomings don't stop there... the UEEF's next-generation fighter is about the worst conceivable design for fighting an enemy that relies on close-range combat and numerical advantages. You don't fight a Zerg rush by rushing the rush with a smaller number of troops, you maliciously abuse Area of Effect weapons to thin the herd to a manageable size. This doesn't seem to the UEEF at any point despite many of its officers being UEDF veterans who used exactly those tactics against the Zentradi to great effect. The Alpha is built exclusively for combat at visual range, with no medium- or long-range weapons or weapon options to speak of. The only worse choice for fighting a foe like the Invid would be the Logan, which barely has munitions at all. This is how you deal with an enemy that uses swarm tactics... you use long-range area of effect weaponry to take their formation to pieces before they ever get to you and mop up the survivors on an even-or-better footing. The adoption of "synchro cannons" is similarly bizarre, since they don't seem to offer any advantage over reflex cannons except rate-of-fire, which seems to not be much of an advantage at all given how much weaker they are... being incapable of damaging enemy ships with near-misses the way reflex cannons can, which would have been a huge asset for fighting Invid formations as well.

The TL;DR here is that the Invid are only a threat if your military's a kakistocracy instead of a meritocracy.

The Robotech (and Macross II) RPGs always shortsell the human ships for no clear reason even when it defies the source material, but the Zentradi got hit with the NERF bat too in RT2E... otherwise this strategy of a moon-based battery of ship gun turrets would be totally viable even in-game. (Then again, ship "main gun" systems didn't get this NERF, so they're totally viable for this purpose still.)

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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:57 am
  

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Seto wrote:
The Earth Recapture Forces in the original Genesis Climber MOSPEADA didn't really have a choice but to fight the Inbit in ways that played to the Inbit's strengths because the technology available to Mars and the outer solar system colonies in 2083 simply wasn't advanced enough to allow any other kind of space war besides a landing operation

The Earth Recapture Forces might not need Zentreadi-level beam weapons. Theoretically speaking they did have the necessary tools, they just did not apply them:
-Massive missile volleys, launched from ships. There is some evidence that massive missile volleys of this nature work (if expensive) from the Legoiss, just think about what they could have do with reloads and banks of launchers built into those pods used by the Horizon and Garfish (if each can comfortably fit a Legoiss you could easily fit in each one facing forward a 7.85x4.5 grid, given clearance call it 8x5 for 40 upper arm stations for ~320 missiles and run on the enemy facing sides each would be at least 12.8x4.5grid of the same, throw in reloads and take advantage of additional room....)
-as missile volleys, but replace with multiple beam cannons (ex. Legoiss/TLead main guns) for area denial, they'd have the advantage of likely more shots than via reloads of missiles
-they could (potentially) redirect suitable sized asteroids or comets to act as a bombardment mechanism instead of beam weapons
=if they have Rail Gun technology, they could also produce mass drivers to be used as weapons (is the Legoiss 2nd Gunpod in the combo image with the wing hardpoints identified? I know I've seen it portrayed as a Gauss Cannon at robotech research fansite)
-build and launch "rods from god" from the Moon.
-at a Earth-Sun Lagrange point construct a giant solar shield(s) to block sunlight from reaching Earth (granted Inbit biology it probably do more harm to natives than the aliens)
-construct basically a giant magnifying glass to "burn the ants" (Germans looked at in WWII, a 9km^2 facility at 8,200km altitude. A size that should be doable for them given space station we see in still shots)

Seto wrote:
This becomes a bit of an adaptation-induced plot hole if we consider the Robotech setting, where humanity has access to things like beam weapons capable of precision bombardment at ranges exceeding a light second and it somehow never occurs to any strategist in the military's employ to install one or more batteries of those guns on the moon and use them to bombard Invid ships and surface targets with impunity.

One which might be explainable:
-Invid Force Fields (we know they have them, though this requires defining how they interact), so then what do you target the FoL fields, human popluation centers, the oceans, etc
-Weapons of this caliber eat up too much Protoculture for the UEEF to sanction their use (which by 2044 has 1year supply left per TSC).
-Invid "Jamming" Technology reduces the effectiveness (we know the Invid can jam communications either intentionally or unintentionally, setting precedent for them to have other jamming capabilities)
-located on the lunar surface gets into Grand Cannon limited firing arcs, (if the Invid could travel to the Moon they could go with a longer trajectory to bring them in at an angle the guns wouldn't be able to track assuming you don't setup for global coverage)
-If this was employed how long before the Invid start imitating those weapon systems (we know the Invid like to imitate other forms and apparently technology given the Invid Overlord Veritech) and counter attacking (with their PC supplies AND ability to setup shop anywhere on Earth they could have a ring going all the way around allowing them to attack the Moon sites 24/7)
-Invid could adopt "mobile" Hive designs that move with the rotation of the Earth (always staying out of the line of fire as they move) giving the Moon base nothing to shoot at
-UEEF sensors aren't up to the task of providing required targeting data (they had to use Shadow Fighters for recon patrol in TSC, suggesting sensors might not be up to the task), though why the UEEF wasn't able to salvage such tech from the Zentreadi to go with their Zentreadi beam weapons is an issue (almost like the UEEF is trying to purge itself of alien influences as much as possible).

Seto wrote:
The adoption of "synchro cannons" is similarly bizarre, since they don't seem to offer any advantage over reflex cannons except rate-of-fire, which seems to not be much of an advantage at all given how much weaker they are...

At Point-K Lancer suggests the team/group might be able to recover reflex weapons (generic term, nothing specific like Beam, Cannon, Missile, Warhead, etc), so limiting it to strictly the SDF-1 type of Main Gun implied:
-R-Cs might have a minimum practical size much larger than S-Cs as depicted in the animation
-Syncro-cannons are also potentially easier to produce (no twin boom).
-Power Consumption (nothing to base this on, but if they can be powered from a Gunpod power sources for multiple shots and the R-Cs can't).
-Precesion strikes, the S-C doesn't have the "wash" like a R-C is shown to have which would allow it to be used much closer to friendly troops (ex. you could fire S-Cs through your fleet formation's gaps, not so much with a R-C), granted you probably still don't want to be near the impact site of such an attack
-Force Field Disruption (if S-Cs can turn an Invid Force Field into swiss cheese, but R-Cs well we don't have an example of R-C on Force Fields do we in RT IINM suggesting a R-C isn't as effective against them)


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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:27 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
The Earth Recapture Forces might not need Zentreadi-level beam weapons. Theoretically speaking they did have the necessary tools, they just did not apply them:
-Massive missile volleys, launched from ships. There is some evidence that massive missile volleys of this nature work (if expensive) from the Legoiss, just think about what they could have do with reloads and banks of launchers built into those pods used by the Horizon and Garfish (if each can comfortably fit a Legoiss you could easily fit in each one facing forward a 7.85x4.5 grid, given clearance call it 8x5 for 40 upper arm stations for ~320 missiles and run on the enemy facing sides each would be at least 12.8x4.5grid of the same, throw in reloads and take advantage of additional room....)

The most obvious problem with this idea is that available technology in the setting doesn't really provide a way to lock onto such a vast number of small targets. Inbit mecha don't produce waste heat as such, being powered remotely by bioenergy beamed to them from their hives (which is why they can't operate away from LEO) so infrared seekers won't cut it and no available radar or laser system would be able to cope with so many simultaneous launches. Inbit ships won't come up from the surface until an enemy's in striking range, so even using larger, longer-range ordnance to strike at their Sheldo carriers isn't much of an option unless you're already carrying out an orbit-to-surface strike.


ShadowLogan wrote:
-as missile volleys, but replace with multiple beam cannons (ex. Legoiss/TLead main guns) for area denial, they'd have the advantage of likely more shots than via reloads of missiles

The Earth Recapture mission flotillas were humanity's state of the art c.2083 and they're little better than the ships of Gundam's Universal Century technologically. Prior to the introduction of the synchrotron cannon, their directed energy weapons were short-ranged laser and particle beam weapons barely more effective than the hard rounds they replaced. Most ships wouldn't have the power available to run a slew of extra beam cannons and doing something like racking up a bunch of gunpods means you've got a very limited range of at most a few kilometers which puts you at the Inbit's nonexistent mercy.


ShadowLogan wrote:
-they could (potentially) redirect suitable sized asteroids or comets to act as a bombardment mechanism instead of beam weapons

As popular as this idea is in science fiction, this is actually a ridiculously inefficient and time-consuming way to strike a surface target.

For your amusement, here is a wonderful in-universe explanation of why this is a bad idea from the Warhammer 40,000 universe via the old White Dwarf magazine.


ShadowLogan wrote:
=if they have Rail Gun technology, they could also produce mass drivers to be used as weapons (is the Legoiss 2nd Gunpod in the combo image with the wing hardpoints identified? I know I've seen it portrayed as a Gauss Cannon at robotech research fansite)

AFAIK, said weapon is never identified in any Genesis Climber MOSPEADA publication.

This is probably within the realm of possibility for them as a lunar installation, though it would probably exceed what a ship could support due to the immense power requirements and size.


ShadowLogan wrote:
-build and launch "rods from god" from the Moon.

This is probably well within what they could achieve, but they're imprecise as all get-out.


ShadowLogan wrote:
-at a Earth-Sun Lagrange point construct a giant solar shield(s) to block sunlight from reaching Earth (granted Inbit biology it probably do more harm to natives than the aliens)
-construct basically a giant magnifying glass to "burn the ants" (Germans looked at in WWII, a 9km^2 facility at 8,200km altitude. A size that should be doable for them given space station we see in still shots)

These are both well outside what human technology is capable of in MOSPEADA, with the outer solar system colonies being only barely self-sufficient thanks to the influx of refugees from Earth and/or their resource situations... unless they built an asteroid habitat and towed it to the construction location, which runs into the problems outlined in "Rocks are not free".


ShadowLogan wrote:
Seto wrote:
This becomes a bit of an adaptation-induced plot hole if we consider the Robotech setting, where humanity has access to things like beam weapons capable of precision bombardment at ranges exceeding a light second and it somehow never occurs to any strategist in the military's employ to install one or more batteries of those guns on the moon and use them to bombard Invid ships and surface targets with impunity.

One which might be explainable:
-Invid Force Fields (we know they have them, though this requires defining how they interact), so then what do you target the FoL fields, human popluation centers, the oceans, etc

They're unlikely to be THAT durable...and the really powerful energy shields in Robotech still have a limit to the punishment they can take before they fail (explosively) and they weren't depicted as common fixtures in the show. Alternatively, just raze the surrounding landscape and keep the Invid bottled up in their hives until they starve or surrender.


ShadowLogan wrote:
-Weapons of this caliber eat up too much Protoculture for the UEEF to sanction their use (which by 2044 has 1year supply left per TSC).

Didn't stop 'em from having a reflex cannon on the SDF-3 for two decades... or from using Zentradi ships to bombard around the three mounds to bury the wreck of the SDF-1.

They didn't have a fuel shortage until the SDF-3 disappeared (again), that one year of protoculture is their strategic reserve.


ShadowLogan wrote:
-Invid "Jamming" Technology reduces the effectiveness (we know the Invid can jam communications either intentionally or unintentionally, setting precedent for them to have other jamming capabilities)

Noise jamming a microwave radio is as low-tech as jamming gets... that sets a pretty poor precedent for the idea of them having other jamming technologies, and even if they do it's rather difficult if not technically impossible to jam a LIDAR array or a good old fashioned optical camera.


ShadowLogan wrote:
-located on the lunar surface gets into Grand Cannon limited firing arcs, (if the Invid could travel to the Moon they could go with a longer trajectory to bring them in at an angle the guns wouldn't be able to track assuming you don't setup for global coverage)

"If the Invid can travel to the moon" is a big if, given that they've essentially either ignored or been unable to strike at the UEEF's moon base despite it being used as a staging area for two prior major fleets that attacked Earth shortly after. The limited arc of fire is a fair point, but with the Invid hives mostly situated in latitudes favorable to agriculture and near or in major conurbations, this isn't all that much of an issue. (Potentially a non-issue if the Zentradi had access to beam turrets that were "bendy beam" capable the way they did in the OSM... set a ring of 'em around the moon and let 'em focus fire by bending beams to converge on a target.)


ShadowLogan wrote:
-If this was employed how long before the Invid start imitating those weapon systems (we know the Invid like to imitate other forms and apparently technology given the Invid Overlord Veritech) and counter attacking (with their PC supplies AND ability to setup shop anywhere on Earth they could have a ring going all the way around allowing them to attack the Moon sites 24/7)

Their ability or interest in imitating technology seems to be pretty limited in the series, and the UEEF would have eyes in the sky to spot construction sites for such weapons and thus have the drop on any such attempt at a counterattack.


ShadowLogan wrote:
-Invid could adopt "mobile" Hive designs that move with the rotation of the Earth (always staying out of the line of fire as they move) giving the Moon base nothing to shoot at
-UEEF sensors aren't up to the task of providing required targeting data (they had to use Shadow Fighters for recon patrol in TSC, suggesting sensors might not be up to the task), though why the UEEF wasn't able to salvage such tech from the Zentreadi to go with their Zentreadi beam weapons is an issue (almost like the UEEF is trying to purge itself of alien influences as much as possible).

The Invid never display anywhere near this level of technical proficiency... creating what amounts to a mobile city block (never mind a hive like Reflex Point being the size of several counties) is a huge engineering task that's probably flat impossible given the weight that'd impose on the terrain, and again the UEEF's sky eye view of Invid construction and the ability to focus fire on it means that they can forestall the problem by blowing it up before it's even finished. (If it flies, there's the additional potential for abuse in bombarding it until it crashes and sinks into the ocean.)


ShadowLogan wrote:
At Point-K Lancer suggests the team/group might be able to recover reflex weapons (generic term, nothing specific like Beam, Cannon, Missile, Warhead, etc), so limiting it to strictly the SDF-1 type of Main Gun implied:

Earlier usage in the show meant pretty much any protoculture-powered weapon... which makes this an odd case of redundancy, like saying "gunpowder firearms" or "Inspector Morse Detective".


ShadowLogan wrote:
-Syncro-cannons are also potentially easier to produce (no twin boom).

Whether the twin boom design is actually necessary is debatable, given some Robotech Masters weapons demonstrated in the series.


ShadowLogan wrote:
-Precesion strikes, the S-C doesn't have the "wash" like a R-C is shown to have which would allow it to be used much closer to friendly troops (ex. you could fire S-Cs through your fleet formation's gaps, not so much with a R-C), granted you probably still don't want to be near the impact site of such an attack

Granted, but you don't use a weapon like that close to your own troops... you use a gun like that to kill the everloving hell out of enemy targets at long range, as demonstrated in the series.


ShadowLogan wrote:
-Force Field Disruption (if S-Cs can turn an Invid Force Field into swiss cheese, but R-Cs well we don't have an example of R-C on Force Fields do we in RT IINM suggesting a R-C isn't as effective against them)

It's likely, given what we see of other barrier tech, that those force fields could be beaten down with raw firepower... or made to overload with potentially fatal consequences for the hive itself.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:45 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 6163
Location: WI
RE: GCM
The point is not the degree of practicality that I am considering merely weather they are technically capable of executing such an action. There may be reasons to go with one route over another.

RE: UEEF Zentreadi Beam Canons & Syncro-Cannons
Getting a nice neat tidy explanation is probably not going to be workable with what is available for an in-universe RT explanation. Though we have statements (AotSC pg141) about why Syncro-Cannons replaced Reflex Cannons (efficient, scalable, rate of fire basically).

Seto wrote:
If the Invid can travel to the moon" is a big if,

It actually is not a big IF (for RT, GCM it would be AFAIK). Check out RT.com's Infopedia (and repeated in AotSC pg139) and the Range of the Invid Carrier "Range: Sublight - Earth-Lunar transit capability." 2E PB RPG just limits it to "Sub-light" in space (1E PB RPG doesn't address it directly). So we know they CAN technologically speaking, meaning we are dealing with some level of mental aspect driving this outcome to ignore the Moon (weather that would remain the case if the Moon started bombarding them directly instead of use as a staging ground...)

EDIT: I trimmed the post down.


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