Modifying a Pre-Rifts Space Salvage Suit for Close Combat

[Hotrod]

I've been working up a concept for a power armor that I'd like some thoughts on.

The basic concept is a suit originally designed for salvage and mining operations in space and on other planets and manufactured in the Kilimanjaro Space Launch Complex (this is meant for my Africa Expanded project). It's got to be able to work in confined, hazardous, and unstable spaces, So it's tough, strong, and agile, but slow. It uses weaponized versions of rescue tools designed to punch through and open access holes in M.D.C. materials. I'm thinking Jaws of Death instead of Jaws of Life, plasma torches, a particle beam cannon, a decontamination tool dialed up to be a M.D.C. flamethrower, and a high-tensile tether/tow strap grappler. Basically, I want this thing to be a beast up close and in melee, but have no options that could out-range a pistol.

Movement-wise, it's slow. I'm thinking maybe 40 MPH, with no jump jets. See, instead of jump jets (which would not work in space because jets need air), I want to throw in a kicker: a "rocket mode" where, for a very short period of time (like 15 seconds), it ignites an internal reservoir of rocket fuel, and for that brief burst of time, it can fly at 300 miles per hour, gain an absurd bonus to dodge, perform some crazy leaping/knockdown attacks, or just stand there knocking over anything nearby that isn't over 500 lbs and setting combustible S.D.C. materials on fire. Then it's back to being a slow power armor again until its rocket system cools down enough to refuel (maybe an hour?).

As a companion to this suit, I'm thinking of adding two optional vehicles: a jetpack and a hover bike. The jetpack could provide steady, controlled flight up to a few thousand feet, but with less speed, while the hover bike would provide more speed without the ability to go high. Both could generate rocket fuel for the suit, as well as more mobility, but they would effectively prevent the pilot from engaging in much hand-to-hand combat or using most of the suit's close-range weapon systems.

I also really like the idea of the suit on a hoverbike with a plasma lance doing charge attacks. It's probably not practical, and I can't think of any rationalization for it, but the image I get in my head is cool.

The premise for the rocket mode is to give a salvager some ability to nudge a larger ship or asteroid and/or get back to his/her own ship in space. The original design had multiple tanks for repeated, separate burns, but the folks redesigning it opt for a larger main tank and a fuel regeneration system.

The operators who find this sell it as "The Warsuit." It probably starts as a joke since that's the opposite of what it was originally designed for, but as the settlement grows and this becomes a status symbol of the local nobility, the name sticks.

Anyway, that's the concept. Thoughts?

[taalismn]

I think it's pretty cool and shows off the Kilimanjaro operator-techs' customization skills real nicely.

[ShadowLogan]

I do admit I'm okay with the basic concept, but there are aspects that just don't seem right.

I'm thinking Jaws of Death instead of Jaws of Life, plasma torches, a particle beam cannon, a decontamination tool dialed up to be a M.D.C. flamethrower, and a high-tensile tether/tow strap grappler. Basically, I want this thing to be a beast up close and in melee, but have no options that could out-range a pistol.

I'm not sure that it would be equipped with a decontamination tool, as that would be w/o any real precedent AFAIK.

Movement-wise, it's slow. I'm thinking maybe 40 MPH, with no jump jets. See, instead of jump jets (which would not work in space because jets need air), I want to throw in a kicker: a "rocket mode" where, for a very short period of time (like 15 seconds), it ignites an internal reservoir of rocket fuel, and for that brief burst of time, it can fly at 300 miles per hour, gain an absurd bonus to dodge, perform some crazy leaping/knockdown attacks, or just stand there knocking over anything nearby that isn't over 500 lbs and setting combustible S.D.C. materials on fire. Then it's back to being a slow power armor again until its rocket system cools down enough to refuel (maybe an hour?).

You could have regular jump-jets done as an Earth modification to make it more attractive (if its still in production).

The Rocket System... The main issue I have it two fold:
1. Nuclear Propulsion seems to be the norm, this has a very chemical rocket vibe going
2. You seem to imply that it can self regenerate its propellant (rocket fuel), which begs the question of how.

It also has that Triax Terrain Hopper Vibe going for it to.

As a companion to this suit, I'm thinking of adding two optional vehicles: a jetpack and a hover bike. The jetpack could provide steady, controlled flight up to a few thousand feet, but with less speed, while the hover bike would provide more speed without the ability to go high. Both could generate rocket fuel for the suit, as well as more mobility, but they would effectively prevent the pilot from engaging in much hand-to-hand combat or using most of the suit's close-range weapon systems.

Are these part of the original design or a post-Cat. addition?

I find the idea of it being able to generate rocket propellant (fuel) a bit much for the suit or either partner vehicle. There have been tests (no actual flight articles AFAIK) for doing something like this with Chemical Rockets that could liquid-fy air for the oxidizer, but not the fuel component, but that would not explain how it generates fuel in the vacuum of space.

also really like the idea of the suit on a hoverbike with a plasma lance doing charge attacks. It's probably not practical, and I can't think of any rationalization for it, but the image I get in my head is cool.

Off hand I can't think of any bike-jousts in the books (specifically bikes, not animal mounts), but I could see a Knight-type OCC (trained with Lance/Joust) doing this as an improvised hack.

The premise for the rocket mode is to give a salvager some ability to nudge a larger ship or asteroid and/or get back to his/her own ship in space.

As a means to get back to their own ship that is viable, but the other things are going to be very inconsequential.

[Hotrod]

I do admit I'm okay with the basic concept, but there are aspects that just don't seem right.

Great! I appreciate the feedback and commentary.

I'm thinking Jaws of Death instead of Jaws of Life, plasma torches, a particle beam cannon, a decontamination tool dialed up to be a M.D.C. flamethrower, and a high-tensile tether/tow strap grappler. Basically, I want this thing to be a beast up close and in melee, but have no options that could out-range a pistol.

I'm not sure that it would be equipped with a decontamination tool, as that would be w/o any real precedent AFAIK.

Actually, there is. It's pretty hilarious, but NASA was so nervous about astronauts bringing back some kind of moon-plague that the first three Apollo missions all had to quarantine in sealed chambers for 3 weeks after coming home. My rationale for this tool was that some billionaire investor or an insurer got nervous about space plagues and insisted on some flame-based decontamination tools to kill stuff with fire. Some junior design team at the lab got the problem thrown at them, had some fun, built a stupidly-overpowered working prototype, and then their bosses stepped in, put them on something more productive, and filed the design as "Stupidly Overpowered Flamethrower, Never Build Again." 250 years later, a couple of operators stumble across the design, try it out, and bro-fist.

Movement-wise, it's slow. I'm thinking maybe 40 MPH, with no jump jets. See, instead of jump jets (which would not work in space because jets need air), I want to throw in a kicker: a "rocket mode" where, for a very short period of time (like 15 seconds), it ignites an internal reservoir of rocket fuel, and for that brief burst of time, it can fly at 300 miles per hour, gain an absurd bonus to dodge, perform some crazy leaping/knockdown attacks, or just stand there knocking over anything nearby that isn't over 500 lbs and setting combustible S.D.C. materials on fire. Then it's back to being a slow power armor again until its rocket system cools down enough to refuel (maybe an hour?).

You could have regular jump-jets done as an Earth modification to make it more attractive (if its still in production).

The Rocket System... The main issue I have it two fold:
1. Nuclear Propulsion seems to be the norm, this has a very chemical rocket vibe going
2. You seem to imply that it can self regenerate its propellant (rocket fuel), which begs the question of how.

It also has that Triax Terrain Hopper Vibe going for it to.

Thanks! I want this suit to be a bit unconventional because my version of Pre-Rifts Africa wasn't part of the big arms race running up to the Coming of the Rifts. The Kilimanjaro Space Complex was a neutral launch facility and didn't build weapons of its own. So I want this power armor to be kind of weird: awesome and advanced in some ways, and yet oddly retro in others. I want this suit to be a serious threat in its own right, and yet not something that most other folks would follow suit with. I also wanted it to evoke space exploration, and rockets do that for me.

In the background story for this suit, it was originally designed to work with a gentle, efficient ion thruster setup for most of the suits, but a customer wanted to have a few units that could provide a lot of thrust in a very short period of time, so the team developed this modification. The operators who found the suit had no use for the ion thrusters (which were designed for precise, gentle maneuvers in zero-g) went with the high-thrust modification as their chosen standard.

As a companion to this suit, I'm thinking of adding two optional vehicles: a jetpack and a hover bike. The jetpack could provide steady, controlled flight up to a few thousand feet, but with less speed, while the hover bike would provide more speed without the ability to go high. Both could generate rocket fuel for the suit, as well as more mobility, but they would effectively prevent the pilot from engaging in much hand-to-hand combat or using most of the suit's close-range weapon systems.

Are these part of the original design or a post-Cat. addition?

I find the idea of it being able to generate rocket propellant (fuel) a bit much for the suit or either partner vehicle. There have been tests (no actual flight articles AFAIK) for doing something like this with Chemical Rockets that could liquid-fy air for the oxidizer, but not the fuel component, but that would not explain how it generates fuel in the vacuum of space.

I'm thinking that both systems start as pre-cataclysm designs.

The backstory of the ones with the rocket fuel generation is that these specific models started as designs for flight systems that could regenerate fuel on moons with atmospheres, like Titan, in order to power surface-to-orbit launch vehicles that need a lot of thrust, and they made some designs for proof-of-concept systems that could operate on Earth. I'm not a chemist, but my understanding is that you can add make hydrazine out of water vapor and nitrogen, and hydrazine is a pretty potent monopropellent.

also really like the idea of the suit on a hoverbike with a plasma lance doing charge attacks. It's probably not practical, and I can't think of any rationalization for it, but the image I get in my head is cool.

Off hand I can't think of any bike-jousts in the books (specifically bikes, not animal mounts), but I could see a Knight-type OCC (trained with Lance/Joust) doing this as an improvised hack.

I've got an idea for a new type of melee weapon to go with this suit: Plasma Flash weapons. The Plasma Flash Spear has a plasma cutter on the front and a plasma thruster on the back. On impact, both do a high-power pulse that slides, slams, and creates a blinding flash. The damage is respectable, the knockdown is like a Big Bore weapon, and it throws in a Blinding Flash to boot. On the downside, they can only hold 12 charges at a time and take 5 minutes to charge up each shot. The spear is especially potent with the speed and momentum of the hoverbike.

Another option is a Plasma Flash Axe, which puts the plasma cutter and thruster on opposite sides of an axe head. It does more damage in melee, but not as much as the spear's charge attack, and isn't suitable for use on a hoverbike (swinging a heavy axe while trying to drive a floating hoverbike tends to cause missed strikes followed by crashes, whereas a couched spear/lance is much more manageable)

The premise for the rocket mode is to give a salvager some ability to nudge a larger ship or asteroid and/or get back to his/her own ship in space.

As a means to get back to their own ship that is viable, but the other things are going to be very inconsequential.

In a vast majority of cases, I 100% agree with you. However, there might be some times when someone needs a couple orders of magnitude more thrust than is reasonable, and that's why this version of the armor was created. It was originally intended to be a small minority of the overall production run.

As for scenarios in which a lot more thrust might come in handy, think like an "Oh crap, that derelict is about to hit my ship, and our maneuvering thrusters are offline, it needs a hard shove" kind of situation. Or maybe "I need to match the acceleration of this spinning station and latch on to its outside, because that's the only safe way in." Or maybe a "Bob is wounded, and we we need to get this derelict spinning right now so his wound will drain" or perhaps, "Bob fell down the spinning derelict and is pinned against the ship's forward bulkhead at high g, we need to stop this derelict spinning right now before he dies."

[ShadowLogan]

@Hotrod

Re: Decontamination
I know there are all sorts of decontamination protocols in place on sending stuff/people out and returning. My issue with was the decontamination tool specifically, there really isn't much precedent for it w/n the setting. None of MiO suits have it, nor does PW suits, indicating if it was an issue, it is something that is not handled on-site but back at base-camp.

Re: Rocket Fuel Generation
The main objection I have for the system is size and production rate. Can a device be made compact enough to fit into the suit/partner-vehicles and produce said materials fast enough.

Said system as you've identified is only really viable on places with a decent level of atmosphere: Titan (Saturn moon), Venus and Mars (and the 4 gas giants). There are a few more places that have extremely tenuous atmospheres (like Earth's Moon) that such a system wouldn't be viable in, Pluto's is very orbit position dependent.

Re: Rocket Propulsion System
You seem to be all over the place, if I might suggest simplifying this down to one system-type per sectional unit (suit, rocket pack, rocket bike) instead of a mix. Hydrazine as a propellant works for chemical engines, but I'm not sure how effective it would be in an Ion engine as those favor elemental propellants over compounds.

Re: nudging an asteroid or larger ship
Thrust IMHO is not going to be the issue, it's going to be the amount of Delta-V the thrust can deliver, at some point the suit isn't going to be able to deliver if it has to move multi-ton objects. At least if we're being a bit realistic as it would have exhausted it propellant supply.

[Hotrod]

@Hotrod

Re: Decontamination
I know there are all sorts of decontamination protocols in place on sending stuff/people out and returning. My issue with was the decontamination tool specifically, there really isn't much precedent for it w/n the setting. None of MiO suits have it, nor does PW suits, indicating if it was an issue, it is something that is not handled on-site but back at base-camp.

That's an excellent point. My thinking was that the Golden Age was also an age where mankind was reaching out and not so sure of biological threats from other planets, so they were operating on the assumption that they were a far more serious threat than they actually are. MiO suits wouldn't have them because they've been up there for centuries and know better, as would Phase World ships.

Really, I just wanted a plausible premise for a MD flamethrower design and prototype to exist at a space launch technology facility, so I can justify giving this suit a flamethrower. I've just about finished the write-up, though, and I haven't written it up yet. Got any ideas that would make it plausible? If not, then I'll move on; the suit already has some potent short-range/melee options.

Re: Rocket Fuel Generation
The main objection I have for the system is size and production rate. Can a device be made compact enough to fit into the suit/partner-vehicles and produce said materials fast enough.

The partner vehicles are big and powerful enough to carry an 8-ft-tall power armor. I'm persuaded that having such an apparatus inside the suit would be impractical. I was thinking that the carrying vehicle might have a single refill tank, and be capable of filling up another over 12-24 hours when it's idle.

Said system as you've identified is only really viable on places with a decent level of atmosphere: Titan (Saturn moon), Venus and Mars (and the 4 gas giants). There are a few more places that have extremely tenuous atmospheres (like Earth's Moon) that such a system wouldn't be viable in, Pluto's is very orbit position dependent.

Agreed; the application of such a system would be very specific. Maybe it was originally built for a Titan exploration/colonization misison? I don't want to dive too deep into the background; I'm not looking at using this in a game set in the Pre-Rifts era; I just want to have a bit of background to make the system plausible.

Alternately, I could just have the operators who found the factory/complex design/create a mobile fuel-generation system and build it into the vehicles.

Re: Rocket Propulsion System
You seem to be all over the place, if I might suggest simplifying this down to one system-type per sectional unit (suit, rocket pack, rocket bike) instead of a mix. Hydrazine as a propellant works for chemical engines, but I'm not sure how effective it would be in an Ion engine as those favor elemental propellants over compounds.

Think of it like three suits that the factory can make:
The original pre-Rifts salvage suit, which was based on highly-efficient ion thrusters with lots of delta-V, but very gentle acceleration, so it takes a lot of time to push stuff.
The pre-Rifts modified salvage suit, which uses chemical rocket technology instead, providing lots of thrust, but nowhere near as much delta-V.
The Warsuit, which is a modified design of the chemical rocket variant that has been redesigned/repurposed as a combat suit.

It's possible, even likely, that the Amboseli Propulsion Laboratory would have ended up using a plasma thruster system (or whatever MiO suits use) with a happy medium of good thrust with good efficiency, but the Rifts game first.

Re: nudging an asteroid or larger ship
Thrust IMHO is not going to be the issue, it's going to be the amount of Delta-V the thrust can deliver, at some point the suit isn't going to be able to deliver if it has to move multi-ton objects. At least if we're being a bit realistic as it would have exhausted it propellant supply.

That's a good point, and in most cases, delta V matters far more than the magnitude of thrust available. Can you think of any circumstances in which someone, either in space or on a moon or asteroid, might need a whole lot of thrust in a very short time? If you can come up with something better, I'll gladly put that in the backstory. If not, then I'll chalk rationalize this as "The stupid-rich Tony Stark wannabe sponsor of the Titan Colony project wants his own version with stupid amounts of thrust so he can showboat and impress the collection of supermodels he takes on his next space vacation. We want his grant money to keep coming to the lab, so get on it, team! Make him a rocket suit! The money goes away if he dies, so build it in the toughest suit we make. The salvage suit? Fine. Just dress it up with a custom paint job."

Maybe that could also justify the flamethrower. "Vernon, I know nobody does decontamination this way; but he just watched that old movie... "The Thing," yeah, that's it, and now he wants to be able to kill imaginary space aliens with fire. We're 500 million over budget already on the Titan colony project, and his money is the only thing keeping it afloat... No! Not another word! Dammit, Vernon, our billionaire sponsor wants a stupid flamethrower for his stupid rocket suit. Make it happen!"

It wouldn't be the first time people have thrown stupid amounts of money and introduced ridiculous and impractical design requirements and changes into expensive projects.

[ShadowLogan]

Really, I just wanted a plausible premise for a MD flamethrower design and prototype to exist at a space launch technology facility, so I can justify giving this suit a flamethrower. I've just about finished the write-up, though, and I haven't written it up yet. Got any ideas that would make it plausible? If not, then I'll move on; the suit already has some potent short-range/melee options.

I can think of three ideas:
-1. An improperly restored/designed or damaged plasma cutter
-2. A prototype "Propulsion Gun" that uses HOT gases instead of COLD gases. MiO pg90's "Jet Pistol" (NASA Project Gemini's Hand-Held Maneuvering Unit essentially), just instead of using compressed air it uses hot gases for more thrust?
-3. The suit's built-in propulsion system has an "afterburner" mode

Agreed; the application of such a system would be very specific. Maybe it was originally built for a Titan exploration/colonization misison? I don't want to dive too deep into the background; I'm not looking at using this in a game set in the Pre-Rifts era; I just want to have a bit of background to make the system plausible.

Alternately, I could just have the operators who found the factory/complex design/create a mobile fuel-generation system and build it into the vehicles.

Titan already has usable rocket propellant in its atmosphere, one that has to be chemically made at Mars/Venus (using independently supplied H2)-Methane!

IMHO it's just easier to say the suit has a nuclear propulsion system and uses the ambient atmosphere to provide reaction mass (with a note on its performance in space using onboard tank).

Can you think of any circumstances in which someone, either in space or on a moon or asteroid, might need a whole lot of thrust in a very short time?

Emergency escapes come to mind, but I don't see something this small (even all 3 sections) being used to move a spaceship/satellite/asteroid. Put another way how much mass can the suit/sections transport is what I'm getting at? Even in space, there will be a limit to how much mass you can transport with a given system.

If you know the thrust, and how long I have been thrusting, and the amount of mass involved (starting and ending) you can calculate Delta-V. The main issue is Palladium doesn't really do the physics parameters very well (if at all), and not just in space.

[Hotrod]

Right then, I think I'll just go with "their billionaire sponsor has a thing for extreme stunts and they made this to keep him engaged/spending" as the justification for the rocket suit; maybe the flamethrower too. Given the amount of money that gets thrown at idiocy that doesn't work like solving water scarcity using dehumidifiers, solar freaking roadways, and the hyperloop, it doesn't seem beyond the pale that someone might come up with a rocket-based power armor.

[ShadowLogan]

All I am going to add is that Rocket Based Power Armor has been a thing since the original Main Book where both the SAMAS and Flying Titan Power Armor are said to have said system for flight "The Rocket Propulsion system enables the [...]" pg194 and 213 (under the "Flying:" heading). Now this could just another example of Palladium's poor use of science/technical/engineering terms being used. It's also used in WB5/SB1 Triax PA units, Kittani units in WB2 (not all, but they get a mention in most), and select units in WB6/8/11/14/22. So, a "rocket assisted" power armor is already a thing.

[Hotrod]

All I am going to add is that Rocket Based Power Armor has been a thing since the original Main Book where both the SAMAS and Flying Titan Power Armor are said to have said system for flight "The Rocket Propulsion system enables the [...]" pg194 and 213 (under the "Flying:" heading). Now this could just another example of Palladium's poor use of science/technical/engineering terms being used. It's also used in WB5/SB1 Triax PA units, Kittani units in WB2 (not all, but they get a mention in most), and select units in WB6/8/11/14/22. So, a "rocket assisted" power armor is already a thing.

Yep! That’s a valid critique. The uniqueness I’m going for from a game design perspective is the one-shot high-performance aspect of it: 15 seconds of high-G maneuvering (or an explosion or something else one might do with rocket fuel) as an ace up the sleeve. Lots of suits have a high-yield expendable asset in the form of missiles; I’m going for something useful to get into, get out of, or increase performance in close combat.