"Updating" Rifts tech

[Alpha 11]

Just wandering if Palladium should go through some of the older books, like book 5 on Triax, and update some of the computer type tech they have. That book itself is like, 20 years old now, if not more. Your thoughts, or not worth it?

[taalismn]

Not necessarily. The thing about a post-apocalyptic setting is that stuff ISN'T up to date....It's what's survived. If it isn't up to date with our current knowledge of such things, well, that's part of what was lost with the Golden Age.
If a GM or player wants to bring more realistic or speculative tech that's becoming available now, then it can pop up in a game as treasure, or a sign of progress in the recovery of technology.

Now, power creep, on the other hand, is a whole different issue.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Not necessarily. The thing about a post-apocalyptic setting is that stuff ISN'T up to date....It's what's survived. If it isn't up to date with our current knowledge of such things, well, that's part of what was lost with the Golden Age.
If a GM or player wants to bring more realistic or speculative tech that's becoming available now, then it can pop up in a game as treasure, or a sign of progress in the recovery of technology.

Now, power creep, on the other hand, is a whole different issue.

Problem with this is that Triax never went through the Dark Age.

Their tech should be Golden Age tech, and should have been from the day they were introduced.

Actually, it should be Golden Age tech + 200 years of rapid advancement since they were fighting for their lives.

Its one of the MAJOR plot holes in the Rifts setting.

Now, as to the OPs question..

No, NEVER put down "this computer has X power with Y RAM etc" in an RPG book.

Leave the tech vague. Just say "Golden Age Tech was hundreds of times better than Modern Day" and leave it at that.

Same with P.A. re-advancements or Golden Age discoveries (or based on Golden Age tech, like pretty much everything the CS has) - just say "its not as good as Golden Age tech, but it's still hundreds of times better than Modern Day".

Then leave it alone. Pinning it to a specific set of capabilities just dates your material and can handicap your storytelling, as things you envisioned as unbelievably high tech happen in the real world just a few years after you wrote your book.

Take portable computers in Rifts. The one outlined in SB1, for instance - a Raspberry Pi is more powerful than that thing. A modern smart phone, even a low end one, is better than anything they put hard stats on in Rifts.

[Mack]

The Rifts Game Master Guide has the following note on page 186:

We have shied away from giving specific stats on Rifts computers because by the time this book sees print, those figures will be wrong, and in a couple of years, they will be laughable. A good rule of thumb for gauging what computers can do in your campaign is to consider what computers can do at the moment you are running a game, and magnify that potential by about a hundred.

[Library Ogre]

In N&SS, the Internal Computer cybernetic has a neat bit of writing... the computer has to be at least as good as the "current year", because the older stuff is "too big too work." Now, since the smartphone era, that's become less clever, but through the 90s? It was pretty golden.

[Warshield73]

The Rifts Game Master Guide has the following note on page 186:

We have shied away from giving specific stats on Rifts computers because by the time this book sees print, those figures will be wrong, and in a couple of years, they will be laughable. A good rule of thumb for gauging what computers can do in your campaign is to consider what computers can do at the moment you are running a game, and magnify that potential by about a hundred.

I kind of remember a technology hierarchy for Rifts earth saying who was most to least advanced but I can't find it. Does anyone remember this or know where it is?

I think in the last 20 plus years PB has done a good job of keeping the tech in Rifts vague enough so that it doesn't need an in book update but the distinctions between in game technologies is so vague that it is hard to play it out in game.

One of the things that I have wanted from the publication of RMB was a tech level indication that many other sci-fi games had at the time. I mean we know that Triax computers are superior to Northern Gun computers but what does that mean? If you use a Triax computer to hack the lock on a NG vehicle do you get a bonus?

[Emerald MoonSilver]

I remember reading a while back that the most advanced Earth tech was about 100 years away from the 3 galaxies tech. Well if the NGR was modified to have golden age tech when the rifts happened and its been 200 years since then. They should have tech now equal to the 3 galaxies including Naruni and the spoogies, if not a little more considering they have been fighting for their lives and the Naruni haven't.

[Warshield73]

I remember reading a while back that the most advanced Earth tech was about 100 years away from the 3 galaxies tech. Well if the NGR was modified to have golden age tech when the rifts happened and its been 200 years since then. They should have tech now equal to the 3 galaxies including Naruni and the spoogies, if not a little more considering they have been fighting for their lives and the Naruni haven't.

There are a few mentions of this in DB 2: Phase World

...Rifts Earth (especially the space colonies described in the Mutants in Orbit sourcebook and the New German Republic) fits into this category. Pre-Rifts Earth was on the borderline between this tech level and the next when disaster struck.

At this level, technological advancement starts to "level off' a little. Technology continues to improve, but the overall superiority is not overwhelming. A combat robot or vehicle produced by a Mature Space Age culture, for example, will not be completely outmatched by a higher-tech counterpart, although it will definitely be "second rate" by most standards.

Generally speaking, the high-tech powers of Rifts Earth are much closer to the Three Galaxies' (within 10 to 20 years) in regard to robots, power armor, bionics, weapons, and techno-wizardry, although there are some civilizations that surpass them by 50 to 100 years in those areas as well, but these are the exceptions, not the rule.

Rifts Note: The contragravity system of this robot is centuries ahead of anything produced on Rifts Earth. While this suit will fly rings around anything produced there, if the flying system is damaged or destroyed, it cannot be repaired unless it is brought back to Phase World or some other technical facility in the Three Galaxies.

The way it is described in the first four books is that weapons tech, robots, power armor, even bionics are really close in overall performance but in terms of force fields, gravity control and FTL travel they are more than two hundred years behind.

[jaymz]

I look at today's, say aircraft and electronic tech, then think what would it roughly be in 2098 as that would be the height of human tech (I ignore listing in Chaos Earth for this frankly) then adjust accordingly to what i think that particular company's tech should be. Archie and Triax should be better. CS should be on par or slightly better. NG on par or slightly worse. So on and so forth.

[torjones]

Just wandering if Palladium should go through some of the older books, like book 5 on Triax, and update some of the computer type tech they have. That book itself is like, 20 years old now, if not more. Your thoughts, or not worth it?

Well, I wouldn't complain, but the only thing that is really needed or missing, are UAVs/Drones, and you can add those in yourself.

[Fenris2020]

My only complaint really with the Triax books is, the weapon damages on the giant robots are very similar to what a grunt with a laser rifle can do...

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

My only complaint really with the Triax books is, the weapon damages on the giant robots are very similar to what a grunt with a laser rifle can do...

With between 2 and 4x the range. And thats usually a burst/pulse from the laser rifle and a single shot from the robot weapon, meaning the robot weapon can also be Aimed, and the rifle cannot (at least not when bursting).

Damage is not the only important stat on weapons.

Being able to do damage similar to a giant robot does you no good if said robot kills you before you can even get into range. Though i will say i find the ranges on some weapons to still be too short but they are what they are for game balance reasons. For instance, a tank cannon can go a lot farther than 4000-8000ft, depending on the round used. But it wouldn't be a terribly large amount of fun for the GM to be like "okay, so you all just took X damage from a Tank shooting you from 6 miles away".

Also, the "infantry is dangerous, even to tanks and giant robots" is sorta a MacGuffin of the setting.

I also dont think this applies to Triax 2 nearly as much.

Triax 2 is what Triax 1 SHOULD have looked like (sans Glitter Boys), if Triax/the NGR hadn't ever suffered the Dark Age.

[Orin J.]

With between 2 and 4x the range. And thats usually a burst/pulse from the laser rifle and a single shot from the robot weapon, meaning the robot weapon can also be Aimed, and the rifle cannot (at least not when bursting).

Damage is not the only important stat on weapons.

don't forget they usually have a dedicated gunner and secondary weapons, which drastically increases the amount if effective firepower they put out in a round! having one guy with a gun that's roughly on par with the robot's weapons does you zero good if the gunner can just force him to fire wild behind cover to stay alive leaving the pilot free to focus on his task.

Being able to do damage similar to a giant robot does you no good if said robot kills you before you can even get into range. Though i will say i find the ranges on some weapons to still be too short but they are what they are for game balance reasons. For instance, a tank cannon can go a lot farther than 4000-8000ft, depending on the round used. But it wouldn't be a terribly large amount of fun for the GM to be like "okay, so you all just took X damage from a Tank shooting you from 6 miles away".

honestly, this goes both ways, shooting at a random person six miles away simply because you have that guy outranged and consider him a possible threat when you don't know who he is or what faction he might be a part of is idiocy unless you're a member of the coalition and have already declared functionally everyone your enemy. your tank cannon isn't outranging tactical missile emplacements or protecting you from invisible demons flying over you and tearing their way into the tank, manners (and the cost) are doing that.

Also, the "infantry is dangerous, even to tanks and giant robots" is sorta a MacGuffin of the setting.

they're viable, it's just bad tactics in a vacuum. and most gaming groups eat and breathe bad tactics.

[Shark_Force]

I mean, if you're going to compare 2 people in a robot, I would argue that 2 people outside of the robot is the appropriate comparison. and considering the robot vehicle likely costs several million credits, the two guys outside of the robot should have some fairly expensive kit as well.

[Library Ogre]

I mean, if you're going to compare 2 people in a robot, I would argue that 2 people outside of the robot is the appropriate comparison. and considering the robot vehicle likely costs several million credits, the two guys outside of the robot should have some fairly expensive kit as well.

There are very few situations where a team in a giant robot are going to be a more formidable force than a team with the same number of people in power armor with the same total value as the giant robot.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I mean, if you're going to compare 2 people in a robot, I would argue that 2 people outside of the robot is the appropriate comparison. and considering the robot vehicle likely costs several million credits, the two guys outside of the robot should have some fairly expensive kit as well.

There are very few situations where a team in a giant robot are going to be a more formidable force than a team with the same number of people in power armor with the same total value as the giant robot.

This has been gone over extensively, and this is.... only kinda true.

It entirely depends on the robot in question, as some are really weirdly over-costed and have garbage armament.

We ran the numbers on 4 Striker SAMs vs a single Skull Smasher and the Skull Smasher wins 100% of the time, assuming average rolls. With BAD rolls on the part of the SAMs, they die before they even get into range. With BAD rolls on the Skull Smasher's part.... it still wins over half the time.

However, thats not really the point of Giant Robots.

Its kind of... Rock-Paper-Scissors-ey.

Infantry is absolutely garbage against (most) Giant Robots. Infantry is actually pretty solid against power armor, in most cases (in a purely cost/benefit ratio sense). Yeah, youll lose some guys but the PA will go down. And it really depends on what PA. Only Triax and The CS have what i'd call truly "tough" PA - with most PA not built by these two forces having less than 200 MDC, and rarely in the 250MDC range, which is only double-ish what infantry has.

Robots are great against infantry and hardened positions, but are weak against PA - particularly fast moving air-mobile PA.

PA are good all-around forces, not particularly weak against anything, though they do have a marginal weakness when put into a situation where they are forced to attack into a prepared defense (because they have to come to the defenders on terms favorable to the defenders).

You cant just take a look at what the credit cost of something is and be like "well you could spend less on PA and get more".

Because that isn't always true.

If i needed to kill a few infantry companies, i'd take that Skull Smasher (or, better yet, some Linebackers, but lets stick with the Skullsmasher) over an equivalent number of SAMs every day of the week, twice on saturday and 10 times on sunday.

Because that Skull Smasher will kill all 200 of those infantry without being touched. Because missiles (and guns that shoot about 3x as far as 90% of the infantry).

The SAMs would still win, of course, but they'd take their lumps and losses along the way.

Its almost like different war machines serve different purposes.

Edit: Also, at least for PC parties, Giant Robots allow generally weak or otherwise non-combatant characters to be in the fight without being turned into paste. Your Cyber-Doc or Rogue Scholar can learn Weapon Systems and Sensory Equipment and man the guns of a Robot piloted by another party member, making them useful in a group setting without putting them at undue risk. So in a lot of cases, thats worthwhile in and of itself.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

honestly, this goes both ways, shooting at a random person six miles away simply because you have that guy outranged and consider him a possible threat when you don't know who he is or what faction he might be a part of is idiocy unless you're a member of the coalition and have already declared functionally everyone your enemy. your tank cannon isn't outranging tactical missile emplacements or protecting you from invisible demons flying over you and tearing their way into the tank, manners (and the cost) are doing that.

Im actually just referring to battlefield conditions. Not shooting at random people, just "we are already engaged in battle" - while you're stuck in with the enemy infantry, you get hit by a round out of nowhere that you cant possibly hope to reply to or take out of the fight. This can still happen with missiles, but at least you have the CHANCE to shoot down incoming missile fire. Cannon rounds.. nope. So i understand why the tank cannons (that actually fire projectiles) have limited range compared to even their 20th century counterparts... its a game balance thing.

Also.. invisible demons are useless. Every single robot vehicle, tank, APC, etc from all of the major manufacturers can see right through the natural invisibility power (which does not stop sensors in any way, as it is the equivalent of the Simple Invisibility spell, as per the GM Guide). Now, if they are one of the (very few) Demons or Deevils that can actually cast Superior Invisibility, the maybe... but at that point, you're talking Greater Demons/Deevils... so if the thing here is "Greater Demons are actually dangerous unlike almost all of the regular Demons and Sub Demons other than Gargoyles" then.. yeah. A Great Demon/Deevil SHOULD be the equivalent of a giant robot or tank, roughly.

[Fenris2020]

My only complaint really with the Triax books is, the weapon damages on the giant robots are very similar to what a grunt with a laser rifle can do...

With between 2 and 4x the range. And thats usually a burst/pulse from the laser rifle and a single shot from the robot weapon, meaning the robot weapon can also be Aimed, and the rifle cannot (at least not when bursting).

Damage is not the only important stat on weapons.

Being able to do damage similar to a giant robot does you no good if said robot kills you before you can even get into range. Though i will say i find the ranges on some weapons to still be too short but they are what they are for game balance reasons. For instance, a tank cannon can go a lot farther than 4000-8000ft, depending on the round used. But it wouldn't be a terribly large amount of fun for the GM to be like "okay, so you all just took X damage from a Tank shooting you from 6 miles away".

Also, the "infantry is dangerous, even to tanks and giant robots" is sorta a MacGuffin of the setting.

I also dont think this applies to Triax 2 nearly as much.

Triax 2 is what Triax 1 SHOULD have looked like (sans Glitter Boys), if Triax/the NGR hadn't ever suffered the Dark Age.

If a gun that's 20' long doesn't have the fire-power of a 3' rifle, there's a problem. I figured they just accidentally left a zero off the end of the damage.

[kaid]

I mean, if you're going to compare 2 people in a robot, I would argue that 2 people outside of the robot is the appropriate comparison. and considering the robot vehicle likely costs several million credits, the two guys outside of the robot should have some fairly expensive kit as well.

There are very few situations where a team in a giant robot are going to be a more formidable force than a team with the same number of people in power armor with the same total value as the giant robot.

Pure one fight wise power armor is pound for pound stronger. But unless you are in something like samas or other flying power armor you are literally having to jog/run to power it. It is very efficient like 20x more than normal but if you can spring for a couple minutes normally means you can sprint for maybe 30 minutes top speed. Your normal movement rate in power armor is a LOT lower since you are basically dog trotting or just flat walking. Robot vehicles can maintain as high of a speed as the terrain will allow basically indefinitely. To really go long distances you wind up needing a party bus to cart the power armor around with the rest of the group where as some robots can carry most of your party inside some even having protected living quarters.

If you are mercs guarding a city or base power armor all the way. If you are group that is doing more long distance travel and want to do so at a faster pace then robot vehicles have a lot of utility.

A lot of people tend to ignore that power armor is in general actually body armor and you are doing hard physical work when fighting it.

Also fight survival wise robot vehicles are nice because almost all of them have reinforced crew compartment so that the destruction of the main body armor does not immediately render you open to attack you have time to gear up if you are not already done so and get ready before having to go out on foot.

[Shark_Force]

or, you could give your infantry jet packs or reasonably fast hover vehicles (making them mechanized infantry, I suppose) to go with their body armour and high-end laser rifles (some of which feature 4,000 foot ranges and match most robot vehicle main weapons). maybe even give some of them a 4000 foot range fully automatic grenade launcher (not every person, but say, 10-20%).

robot vehicles and power armour serve a purpose, but it isn't that they're super amazing for their cost, no matter how you look at it (yes, the laser rifles and body armour and vehicles that allow you to match them cost a fair bit, but it's still quite a bit less than buying typical robot vehicles or even power armour). it's that they allow you to get more out of individual soldiers; after you've equipped a bunch of people on a budget, the only way your combat power really improves is to start spending lots of money on some of them.

so, for example, a typical adventuring party, power armour is great. you can't just go draft half a dozen mooks with laser rifles, send them through boot camp, and stuff them in a mountaineer; you have a certain number of people, and you probably don't have the option of just adding more and equipping them efficiently.

likewise, if you're the coalition states and you've got so many resources lying around that you can afford to just casually build 3.2 million SAMAS and then mothball them all at once (apparently), it makes sense for you to equip a significant portion of your army with more expensive options than just heavy body armour and good quality laser rifles. it could even make sense for a mercenary squad, where you don't have the privilege of drafting people into your army whenever you feel like it.

but it isn't because you get more bang for your buck than having infantry.

[kaid]

The issue with after market jet packs is endurance. They give you good boost to mobility while they are up but most have to stop to cool down every x many hours. If you are traveling long distances they still have issues endurance wise keeping up vehicles and robot vehicles without another party bus to cart them around.

[slade2501]

not to mention, has anyone here ever tried to maintain a straight back position with a couple Gees of force pushing down on your shoulders? travel by jetpack requires the back stamina of a Himalayan Sherpa.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

My only complaint really with the Triax books is, the weapon damages on the giant robots are very similar to what a grunt with a laser rifle can do...

With between 2 and 4x the range. And thats usually a burst/pulse from the laser rifle and a single shot from the robot weapon, meaning the robot weapon can also be Aimed, and the rifle cannot (at least not when bursting).

Damage is not the only important stat on weapons.

Being able to do damage similar to a giant robot does you no good if said robot kills you before you can even get into range. Though i will say i find the ranges on some weapons to still be too short but they are what they are for game balance reasons. For instance, a tank cannon can go a lot farther than 4000-8000ft, depending on the round used. But it wouldn't be a terribly large amount of fun for the GM to be like "okay, so you all just took X damage from a Tank shooting you from 6 miles away".

Also, the "infantry is dangerous, even to tanks and giant robots" is sorta a MacGuffin of the setting.

I also dont think this applies to Triax 2 nearly as much.

Triax 2 is what Triax 1 SHOULD have looked like (sans Glitter Boys), if Triax/the NGR hadn't ever suffered the Dark Age.

If a gun that's 20' long doesn't have the fire-power of a 3' rifle, there's a problem. I figured they just accidentally left a zero off the end of the damage.

Except range IS firepower.

I dont care if your snub nose peashooter does excellent damage, if you're dead 10,000 feet out of range of using it.

Also, the "its 20 feet long it MUST do 20x the damage of a 3' gun" doesn't even pertain to real life firearms, much less fantasy ray guns. Bigger != better by default. (And it also doesn't. There is no 3' rifle that does 1d6x10 damage per single shot. Pulses are nice and all, but cant be aimed and cant be used for called shots, and that whole "2000ft range vs 8000ft range thing).

Your theory also completely ignores one of the Setting McGuffin's of Rifts, as well, which is that breakthroughs in materials technology led to the firepower of tanks being man-portable. Thats a major caveat/story point/"thing" of the setting. Just because technology allowed damage to be miniaturized, doesn't mean that everything then scales up perfectly (but does eventually scale up; you just have to go bigger than 20ft. The CS and Triax both have super guns that inflict several hundred MD - but they are as big as an entire giant robot all by themselves).

And, again... range.

Its nice that your Wilks Pulse Rifle does 1d6x10 on a pulse and all, but when that Devastator literally shoots your head clean off with an aimed shot from 8000ft, too bad, so sad, so sorry. And the Devastator Mk2? Good times to be had there, what with arm-mounted Boom Guns and all and about 4x the missiles. That thing can wipe out an entire infantry division.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

or, you could give your infantry jet packs or reasonably fast hover vehicles (making them mechanized infantry, I suppose) to go with their body armour and high-end laser rifles (some of which feature 4,000 foot ranges and match most robot vehicle main weapons).

One. There is ONE that does that, and we can all kind of agree that it should never have existed (that being the JA-12 from Juicer Uprising). Even then, though, you're getting pretty expensive here. The JA-12 is 50k all by itself. Jetpacks + Armor, over 100k... you're getting into cheap PA territory now (like a Gladius). However, the JA-11 is just fine. Its got damage superior to almost every other laser rifle (4D6 per shot) and great range (4000ft).

maybe even give some of them a 4000 foot range fully automatic grenade launcher (not every person, but say, 10-20%).

Where might you find that? The only man-portable automatic grenade launcher has a range of 1000ft. The WI-GL20/21 isn't man portable. You need to be augmented to use it.

robot vehicles and power armour serve a purpose, but it isn't that they're super amazing for their cost, no matter how you look at it (yes, the laser rifles and body armour and vehicles that allow you to match them cost a fair bit, but it's still quite a bit less than buying typical robot vehicles or even power armour). it's that they allow you to get more out of individual soldiers; after you've equipped a bunch of people on a budget, the only way your combat power really improves is to start spending lots of money on some of them.

so, for example, a typical adventuring party, power armour is great. you can't just go draft half a dozen mooks with laser rifles, send them through boot camp, and stuff them in a mountaineer; you have a certain number of people, and you probably don't have the option of just adding more and equipping them efficiently.

likewise, if you're the coalition states and you've got so many resources lying around that you can afford to just casually build 3.2 million SAMAS and then mothball them all at once (apparently), it makes sense for you to equip a significant portion of your army with more expensive options than just heavy body armour and good quality laser rifles. it could even make sense for a mercenary squad, where you don't have the privilege of drafting people into your army whenever you feel like it.

but it isn't because you get more bang for your buck than having infantry.

Sorta? Because when all those infantry die to a Robot Platoon before they ever enter effective combat range, thats some pretty good bang/buck.

Or, similarly, when your entire infantry division is wiped out by a single Mark IX MLRS from 100 miles away (admittedly, not something that would happen/should happen in a campaign to the PCs, but when talking the capabilities of in-universe war machines, its a real thing)... that feels like a pretty good investment.

Most of your points stand (in that, the only way to increase your power after a certain point is to make your soldiers individually better), but it still devalues the advantage of being a mobile long range platform that can kill infantry in job lots without ever exposing itself to return fire.

Fast-moving flying PA also butcher infantry, RAW (they pretty much need natural 20s to even hit one).

[Shark_Force]

mount the grenade launcher on that reasonably fast hover vehicle I mentioned. or hand it off to someone strong. PS 22 is high, but not unachievable, for someone with a good starting PS and a bunch of physical skills. it is *designed* for augmented individuals or power armour, but it can absolutely be used by someone who is quite strong.

and yes, you are starting to approach the extreme discount level of power armour in cost (I can't recall where the gladius falls on the "is it actually a power armour or not" scale, it's been retconned a couple of times I think). except you have far greater mobility and similar firepower, as a general rule, when compared to those extreme low-end power armours, because they typically only run (reasonably fast), while your mechanized infantry can either fly or ride in a vehicle that moves at 2-3 times the speed of the running power armour.

and sure, if you use the rules that pretty much nobody ever uses because of how stupid those rules are (laser beams travel at the speed of light. a fast-moving target might be a bit tricky, but not impossible, because there is no need to lead your target), infantry will have a penalty to hit most fast-moving flying power armour. but quantity has a quality of its own, and those fast-moving power armours are *not* the inexpensive ones, so we're looking at comparing a large group of infantry for every single power armour. power armour that moves fast enough for -12 (which you need as a minimum if you're going to claim it takes a 20 to hit, but even that presumes my infantry don't have any WPs) is extremely expensive, which means I can just throw lots of dice at you, and I'll still hit you plenty.

not to mention that power armour is not particularly less vulnerable to the MRM/LRM volley from 50 miles away than infantry is.

power armour makes sense when "just recruit more people" isn't an option. when it is an option, it's pretty lousy compared to hiring more people and giving them a bunch of less expensive equipment, whether that means buying a big boss for every 4 people and mounting a mini-missile rack or WI-GL20 on the roof or buying JA-11 or JA-12 laser rifles and jet packs for everyone or something else.

[Orin J.]

the "open battlefield" argument you guys are working under isn't really a fair example of how rifts is set up, FYI. most of rifts conflict is more of a vietnam-US war sort of scenario, with one side pushing into an unknown area with limited recon possible and forcing asymmetical warfare locally rather than sending an army to wage conventional warfare.

heck that' so rare that we got like six books devoted to the one time it happened!

[HWalsh]

the "open battlefield" argument you guys are working under isn't really a fair example of how rifts is set up, FYI. most of rifts conflict is more of a vietnam-US war sort of scenario, with one side pushing into an unknown area with limited recon possible and forcing asymmetical warfare locally rather than sending an army to wage conventional warfare.

heck that' so rare that we got like six books devoted to the one time it happened!

Spot on.

Nobody in Rifts fights like that. Nobody does open field combat because it would be an absolutely stupid thing to do for anyone not named the Coalition.

Typical military action in Rifts is, "There's some critters over in sector 3, squad, go take care of it."

Some people here are a bit too hung up on modern military and think it is:

-----

"Sir! Reports from field agents state that there are 16 deebees in quadrant 3 sector 3."

"Get me satellite imagery and commence aerial recon!"

"Yes sir! Should I have SAMAS squad 32 put on standby?"

"Of course! Contact the Psi-Corps precogs to determine the proper course of action!"

-----

Rifts military tactics are much less structured than that. Especially with the CS. Remember 99% of the CS can't even read. They're kept ignorant and stupid. They aren't allowed to have any legitimate information about what they're fighting because they can't let them know that these Deebees are harmless.

So you have low information, ignorant, grunt fanatic dealing with everyone else who are engaging in guerilla activities.

-----

Literally Tolkeen was the only place crazy enough to try to engage in a stand up fight with the CS.

Lazlo's battle strategy is to just teleport away.

[Pepsi Jedi]

It's not 'just' the tech but the prices are allllll over the place.

I mean you've got.... *Flips through the book* ok. Hovercycles. Written to be ultimately ubiquitous. Everyone has them. From City Rats in cities, to grunts, to black market, to Pecos raiders, to cowboys herding cattle, to wilderness scouts out trapping, to cyberknights, to merc companies. They're written as totally ubiquitous. They're the rifts version of a Horse, or maybe a dirt bike, but, advanced for the setting with laser rifles and bionics.

Then take a deep breath and look at the prices. $80,000 to $1,600,000 for a hovercycle. the $80,000 is the cheep one. Kids in little flash gangs in cities don't have $80,000 to drop on anything much less the cheepest hovercycle in the world. And all of the others are written as if people are using them all over. Now some of those are combat cycles but many are not. And cow boys aren't roling out $100,000 to $200,000 to $500,000 to $1,600,000 for a hover cycle. Who's buying these things at that price? It's absurd. for something written as if everyone and their grandmaw has one and anyone that wants one would get one, they're grossly overpriced.

If you look at just the common server bots they're no better. Traix makes um, ok. The first write up for their cheapest bottom of the line intro servant bot says they're putting one in every home. That some people have more than one for funsies. Etc. Just for the "Robot house keeper" (And OMG the art for these things is horrible. I'm not saying my 5 year old could do better, but my 17 year old sure as hell could. Ouch.) but for the entry level Housekeeper robot, that they say they want in every home. $350,000. THREE HUNDRED AND FIFTY THOUSAND credits. And they go on at some length in the write up about how afforable they are due to the advances in military bots bringing down the price.

$350,000 is low priced and going to be in every home.

But wait. You want it to be able to cook. That's a THIRTY FIVE THOUSAND DOLLAR PROGRAM. Not a $350 program you upload. not a $3,500 program to have a world renoun, chef of astounding and breathtaking skill. It's $35,000 to teach it how to cook. --Thirty five THOUSAND-- credits for your house keeper bot that's already well over a quarter million creds, to be able to.... cook, as well as clean.

Want one that can drive a car? Not Mad Max style mind you. They are programed not to do anything like that. Nothing illegal, could hurt a passenger, or the car itself. Just a robo driver? $450,000
Want a map for your robo driver? Like, we all have on our phone's for free now? $5,000
Want it to be able to change the car's oil? $25,000.
Those aren't even looking at it to fly a plane or anything. Your robo driver clocks in at nearly half a million credits.

The farm worker bot, which the write up goes to say FLEW OFF THE SHELVES so fast they couldn't stock them when released.
Take another breath. The baseline model of bot to pick veggies, $430,000 for a -basic- model. They get -either- Farm hand, or gardener programs. If you want them to have both? Add on SIXTY SEVEN THOUSAND CREDITS.

Now these bots are half a million credits. But the write up says they flew off the shelves and farmers were buying bunches of them to work the fields.

What farm has the over head to pay half a million for ONE farm hand, but multiples and selling out the store? The entry goes on to say some people keep two or three just around to tend to their flowers and stuff.
Now.. I know rich people exist today, but this is a post apoc setting. Who has $1,500,000 to have robo gardners just hanging out tending the tulips??

Incase you're wondering your secretary bot?? $600,000 off the shelf, but it only comes with two of it's 8 program slots filled. Other programs range from $20,000 to $120,000 more. --each--.

Just looking at these examples it makes you wonder if you should just divide everything by 100, to make it remotely sane, or if the conversion rate of a credit to a dollar is like 1,000c to $1.

Now those are just a few examples. Combat tanks and aircraft coming in ungodly expensive. Well yeah. our tanks and jets are expensive now days too. I get it.

But a hovorcycle costing $1,500,000 and written as they are had from everyone from the top of Chi town to uncle bob the beet farmer..... whoa.... A ''Cheap robot to be found in every home" $350,000 ?? and $35,000 if you want it to make you a sandwich??

The prices in rifts are just as jacked up as the standard of tech.

[Orin J.]

It's not 'just' the tech but the prices are allllll over the place.

I mean you've got.... *Flips through the book* ok. Hovercycles. Written to be ultimately ubiquitous. Everyone has them. From City Rats in cities, to grunts, to black market, to Pecos raiders, to cowboys herding cattle, to wilderness scouts out trapping, to cyberknights, to merc companies. They're written as totally ubiquitous. They're the rifts version of a Horse, or maybe a dirt bike, but, advanced for the setting with laser rifles and bionics.

Then take a deep breath and look at the prices. $80,000 to $1,600,000 for a hovercycle. the $80,000 is the cheep one. Kids in little flash gangs in cities don't have $80,000 to drop on anything much less the cheepest hovercycle in the world.

i'm assuming there's cheap SDC hovercycles all over the place but for some reason the writers only give us top of the line super MDC stuff. A uc1500 hovercycle that isn't running hundreds of miles an hour and can be shot through by a .50 cal is reasonable but apparantly not what buyers want to see.

i mean, give me a sourcebook and i'd put those out there but i'm guessing rifts sourcebook: odds and ends isn't the earmarks of a big seller.

[Emerald MoonSilver]

[quote="Orin J."][quote="Pepsi Jedi"]It's not 'just' the tech but the prices are allllll over the place.


i mean, give me a sourcebook and i'd put those out there but i'm guessing rifts sourcebook: odds and ends isn't the earmarks of a big seller.[/quote


In Triax 2 Book, triax sells electric hovercycles for 2-25 thousand new, and nuclear ones for 66-65 thousand. These are sdc vehicles. I'm assuming northern gun and others can produce similar vehicles. Maybe even "Cheapwell", produces an even lower cost version.

[Warshield73]

In Triax 2 Book, triax sells electric hovercycles for 2-25 thousand new, and nuclear ones for 66-65 thousand. These are sdc vehicles. I'm assuming northern gun and others can produce similar vehicles. Maybe even "Cheapwell", produces an even lower cost version.

I had to look back through the books to realize that this was the first inclusion of SDC hover vehicles. I had been using them since before Juicer Uprising came out as I had most of the buildings and vehicles in Newtown as SDC. I think I might have used stats in a Heroes or Turtles book.

Truthfully, this is one of the many things that were left out of Rifts books that was easy to do myself and really had very little impact on my PCs. I used them mainly for local thugs and bystanders.

[Pepsi Jedi]

It's not 'just' the tech but the prices are allllll over the place.


i mean, give me a sourcebook and i'd put those out there but i'm guessing rifts sourcebook: odds and ends isn't the earmarks of a big seller.[/quote


In Triax 2 Book, triax sells electric hovercycles for 2-25 thousand new, and nuclear ones for 66-65 thousand. These are sdc vehicles. I'm assuming northern gun and others can produce similar vehicles. Maybe even "Cheapwell", produces an even lower cost version.

You missed a zero and thus undercut them by a literal factor of 10.
20,000-65,000 for the bare bones model in Traix 2. Easy mistake to make, but it's a drastic drastic difference in reality. (Also remember MD vehicles are prohibited in the NGR. Even if you buy one from Traix you cant take delivery of it in country, and considering they're literally surrounded by armies of hundreds of thousands of demons, going over the border to take possession of your MD vehicle (That you can't bring BACk in the country) seems unwise. lol

But I actually used the northern gun prices when I opened the book above. The ugly lumpy northern gun hovercycle. I.E. Their cheep one is the $80,000 one. The NG 300 speedster. The write up even says it's one of the most affordable hovercycles on the market. $80,000 credits for the cheapest version up to $950,000.

The most affordable ugly dumpy looking hovercycle on the NA market --starts-- at $80,000 and goes up to about a million.
Again I stipulate these are not costs for ubiquitous items.

So while I agree that it's illogical that the things cost that much. Just speculating with out opening the books ignores the stated problem.

When a companies "Entry level" Hovercycle is EIGHTY THOUSAND to NINE HUNDRED AND FIFTY THOUSAND Credits.... that's messed up. And... proves the point.

[Library Ogre]

When a companies "Entry level" Hovercycle is EIGHTY THOUSAND to NINE HUNDRED AND FIFTY THOUSAND Credits.... that's messed up. And... proves the point.

Rifts: Late 80s salaries and 2050 prices!

[The Beast]

When a companies "Entry level" Hovercycle is EIGHTY THOUSAND to NINE HUNDRED AND FIFTY THOUSAND Credits.... that's messed up. And... proves the point.

Rifts: Late 80s salaries and 2050 prices!

Sounds about right.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Just for fun. Anyone wanna guess the going price of Robotic cats or Ferrets in rifts? (yes they have them)
not Robotic panthers that can decapitate a cow. Not ones with laser eyes. Not ones that can take on tanks.

Lil robot -pet- cats and ferrets.

[Shark_Force]

Just for fun. Anyone wanna guess the going price of Robotic cats or Ferrets in rifts? (yes they have them)
not Robotic panthers that can decapitate a cow. Not ones with laser eyes. Not ones that can take on tanks.

Lil robot -pet- cats and ferrets.

oh goodness. it depends quite a bit I'm sure. If I tried with the SB1 rules, probably a few million. at least. but I bet there's something somewhere that only costs, say, a few hundred thousand. let's go with 300,000 just as a guess (honestly, unless you're using SB1, I can't even think of where you'd find that... my library is getting rather out of date).

[Orin J.]

Just for fun. Anyone wanna guess the going price of Robotic cats or Ferrets in rifts? (yes they have them)
not Robotic panthers that can decapitate a cow. Not ones with laser eyes. Not ones that can take on tanks.

Lil robot -pet- cats and ferrets.

like 30-40k, right? i'm pretty sure that's the range. still WAY too much, but still.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Traix sells Robo pets for $20,000-$55,000

For robo house pets. Like... for your kid to play with.

In North America if you want a Robot cat it'll cost ya $290,000, again, this is in no way a combat creature.
in North America a robo dog will run you about $620,000 for electric and $1,200,000 for a nuclear version.

Don't even ASK how much a robo raptor costs...

As I pointed out above. Prices in these books are just. I don't even know. They make no sense per unit, and absolutely zero sense when you put them together.

[Riftmaker]

All you really need to "update" computer states are cheap(bad give you a minus to use skills with) OK(no bonus or penalty) and high end ( gives you a bonus ). The rest is just fluff.

[Killer Cyborg]

All you really need to "update" computer states are cheap(bad give you a minus to use skills with) OK(no bonus or penalty) and high end ( gives you a bonus ). The rest is just fluff.

That'd depend entirely on how detailed your game is.

[Rogerd]

Why not pick a franchise, e.g Mass Effect, and then say the other faction has ST:TOS level of technology to give you a benchpoint.