UAR-1 Enforcer : the predecessor and the GIANT

[Axelmania]

Page 8 of WB13 Lone Star had a cool illustration of what looks like a Simvan on a Rhino-Buffalo charging a giant robot. One who looked FAMILIAR... the features strongly resemble the full-page UAR-1 enforcer illustration from RMB196 but the scale seemed off...

The original illustration showed a soldier roughly up to it's knee-level, which was approximately consisteny with it's stated height of "20 foot" (195) or 19'7" (197)

Here though, next to the robot's left foot we can see a soldier in Dead Boy armor. He's slightly crouched but... he really couldn't possible reach the robot's knee. He's basically ankle-heigtht at best.

Based on this soldier's size, I would estimate that this enforcer-esque robot would be somewhere around QUADRUPLE the size of the UAR-1 Enforcer we know, ~80 feet tall.

Pg 159 of New West mentions Rhino Buffalo are 25ft tall, yet we can see even as the Enforcer-esque robot is squatting/falling the horn only reaches mid-torso level. Rhino Buffalo can leap 30 feet high, so they could jam their horn into something 55ft tall. A robot who is ~40ft at hip level might be ~55ft tall mid-torso where the horn stabbed through, so this works out perfectly.

I realize there are critics of using artwork to reach any absolute conclusions, but it sure would be fun here. We don't necessarily know EVERY robot the CS has available, right?

Looking at the UAR-1 description in RMB led me to notice something else... the current model had been in use ~20 years, which I think at ~100 PA means it entered service in ~80PA.

Apparently "a few years" after 12 PA (so let's say, ~20 PA?) was "the appearance of the UAR-1 Enforcer’s predecessor"

We have no idea what that predecessor was, AFAIK. The numbering of the UAR-1 implies it was the first URBAN assault robot... so what was the predecessor, if not an URBAN assault robot?

Sourcebook 1 seems to have some hint of this... page 35 introduced the "IAR-2 Abolisher". This numbering implies the apolisher is the 2nd "Infantry Assault Robot".

So there was probably a 1st "Infantry Assault" model we don't know about... the "IAR-1".

Perhaps the IAR-1 might've been a giant-sized Enforcer? Given we're talking about (~20PA to ~80PA) a six decade (threescore years) gap in tech, I don't know if it's stats would've been all that better, or even better at all. Maybe we could use the same MDC/damage as the UAR-1 but just scale up the dimensions fourfold?

It could've been phased out of production after the introduction of the Abolisher because it was more suited for infantry assault, while the need was for having an "urban assault" model, so perhaps they just miniaturized the predecessor?

The LS8 image shows the giant Enforcer-esque not just with 2 old-style dead boys, but a suit of the new-style dead boy armor too. So what this could mean is that even though they stopped making them, there might be a few of the old models still in existence, used in large open areas like the Pecos Badlands since they would be too large to navigate cloistered urban areas like streets.

BTW does anyone recall when the CS got the SAMAS? I know they had it before they discovered Lone Star in 68 but I can't remember more beyond that. Or perhaps the year they developed the old style dead boy armor?

[taalismn]

That's quite some reasoning...I'll have to look up the picture in question, but your line or reasoning sounds pretty neat.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

The obvious answer is, that that is a UAR-1 and the Artist wasn't concerned about how big the vehicle actually was. If you were to ask Kevin "is that an IAR-1 (as good a name as any) or a UAR-1?" the answer is 99.9% going to be "yeah thats a UAR-1 and the size is off but the art looked awesome so we went with it".

That being said...

A ~30-32 foot version that was the predecessor to the UAR-1 is also not exactly a terrible idea. (keep in mind that while a Rhino Buffalo can be 25ft tall, thats for the hump where the back is highest, not the head or the horn, so, if we're trying to size based on the picture, i'd say the robot is more like ~32ft, about the size of the Skullsmasher)

Itd be easiest to just say "use the stats for the UAR-1, its just bigger", and probably on-par with what the CS could field back then.

I also see no reason the CS would have just thrown them away, and a low-priority place like Lone Star would be a great place to send the remainder of them because the open range would mean they would stay useful and relevant just as infantry support pretty much forever.

Honestly, the fact that the CS seems to throw away perfectly good weapon systems when it makes new robots has always perplexed me (and, TBH, NG seems just as guilt; at least in Triax's case its because the Robot is generally BUILT around the new weapon, and the remainng weapons, if any, are re-uses of proven weapons).

Like.. the Skullsmasher should have had a C-50R over the other shoulder to complement that laser cannon. ANd maybe simply used the UAR-1s missile launchers to provide better firepower. Maybe another C-50R (or a C-30R) mounted to one of the arms in addition to the laser cannons. Etc.

The Linebacker tank has "new" Railguns - why? It could have just mounted C-50Rs. Same damage for LESS rounds used.

I could go on. (And dont even get me started on the CRIMINALLY under-used C-30R railgun and its TWO MILE RANGE.)

And, the UAR-1 wasn't upgraded in the CWC/New Army push - AND it has no replacement. The CS doesn't have a replacement bot that can handle infantry support in tight confines, and while the Terror Trooper can pick up about ~70% of the slack (more armor, decent number of mini missiles, heavy hitting main gun, though ammo-limited in the extreme), it still cant provide good close fire support like a UAR-1 can.

At the very least, you think they'd have made a "block 2" or "mark 2" of the UAR-1 with more modern armor (call it 425-450) and maybe a refined weapons package (replace the lasers with the newer pulse models, maybe, just minor upgrades, maybe a bit more capacity on its SRM and Mini Missile complement).

Supporting an infantry advance, that thing is STILL something of a terror, especially considering it only REQUIRES a single crewman (unlike almost every other robot) and even when "fully" crewed is only 2.

[Axelmania]

keep in mind that while a Rhino Buffalo can be 25ft tall, thats for the hump where the back is highest, not the head or the horn, so, if we're trying to size based on the picture, i'd say the robot is more like ~32ft, about the size of the Skullsmasher

I'm basing the size estimate more on the size of the soldier by it's left foot than I am the Rhino Buffalo. You have to keep in mind that the robot is clearly crouching here (mid-fall) so it isn't as high as it would be in a fully standing position. I'd say we're looking at 60% height relative to the Rhino Buffalo here at the greatest, so we should at least be past 40 feet here (double the size).

For the soldier to make sense, 50ft feels like an even better compromise if 60 seems too much.

[taalismn]

Ussing a 'NOT simply reuse UAR-1 stats) approach:

An IAR-1 may have been both larger and slower, more clumsy than the smaller, more agile, UAR-1 that was developed[ from it. The main armaments have been the same, firepower-wise, or it may have used cruder weaponry, like only one or two cannon of the sort that would show up on the Abolisher. It would have more MDC, but would have a number of design flaws that keep it from being a GREAT weapons system able to survive the match of time.
Or it may simply have been more expensive to produce and maintain.
Still, as noted, the CS wouldn't throw functional battle units away, so IAR-1s can probably still be found at garrisons and reserve frontier units. They just don't produce new ones any more.

[Axelmania]

Still, as noted, the CS wouldn't throw functional battle units away, so IAR-1s can probably still be found at garrisons and reserve frontier units. They just don't produce new ones any more.

One thing that does come to mind though is that nuclear batteries wear out after 20 years or so...

In which case they might not be worth the expense of installing a new one. Don't those cost something like 5 million to replace?

Which means you might have a bunch of bots sitting around not actually operational, but who might be brought into active service if there are spare reactors lying around.

That could be one major thing about destroyed bots: whether or not you can repair them, while they're down for repairs you would possibly want to move their nuclear generator into an operational robot to get the most out of the nuke's lifespan...

Like presumably there is no way to actually 'pause' the lifespan of these nuclear generators while stuff is on standby, right?

This makes me think, for the 2.5 million SAMAS which are in storage, they PROBABLY have their nukes removed, right? Why would you waste money letting nukes die off while power armor isn't being used?

Maybe the armor is easier to mass produce for the nukes, so the CS is producing SAMAS faster than they can produce the nuclear batteries? Or they're for cycling out w/ damaged SAMAS in case they can't make repairs fast enough, but CAN do quick-swaps of the nuclear batteries?

For retired robot models, this might mean they're sitting around somewhere ripe to be possessed by a tectonic entity, or converted to a TW power source...

Who knows... maybe the CS could've powered the IAR-1 with something other than nukes, like gasoline or electric? It might be Chipwell-like with limited operating time before needing a recharge... maybe even SDC armor? That could explain how a Rhino-Buffalo could puncture through the entire torso like that...

[Orin J.]

Still, as noted, the CS wouldn't throw functional battle units away, so IAR-1s can probably still be found at garrisons and reserve frontier units. They just don't produce new ones any more.

One thing that does come to mind though is that nuclear batteries wear out after 20 years or so...

they're nuclear power plants, not batteries. small reactors with limited fuel, after 20 years they need to be replaced because they're worn out and do YOU want a tiny atomic reactor on your back to be taking it's last gasps?

[taalismn]

In the case of old reactor-dead, obsolete IAR-1s, I can see some being walked to last places as watchtowers or wall fortifications, their reusable parts being removed, actuators being welded in place, and the last dregs of the reactor(or a more conventional power system) used to power the remaining systems. The British did the same with many of the Boulton-Paul and Blackburn ‘turret fighters’ that they realized were obsolete in WW2…parked them around airfields and used their machine gun turrets as air defense batteries.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Still, as noted, the CS wouldn't throw functional battle units away, so IAR-1s can probably still be found at garrisons and reserve frontier units. They just don't produce new ones any more.

One thing that does come to mind though is that nuclear batteries wear out after 20 years or so...

They can be easily replaced, though.

In which case they might not be worth the expense of installing a new one. Don't those cost something like 5 million to replace?

Cant be that much, or Power Armor wouldn't be feasible. It could also just be re-fueled. Remove old bar of plutonium, insert new bar. The reactor itself is probably just fine. The fuel itself is not the expensive part, its the containment and power creation portions that are expensive.

This makes me think, for the 2.5 million SAMAS which are in storage, they PROBABLY have their nukes removed, right? Why would you waste money letting nukes die off while power armor isn't being used?

Because the power isn't being used, so its probably not decaying. Thats why you see, under some robots/PA, a variable number of years for service life, or a "usually" X years notation. And there are some units that explicitly say "under heavy use, it lasts X, under normal use, Y" years. IF they still decay/lose power when they aren't actively being used, then they would do so wether they were in a PA or not, so removing them would be moot. If they simply need to be disconnected (so the PA isn't drawing reserve power, or whatever) they can just be disconnected and left in place.

Maybe the armor is easier to mass produce for the nukes, so the CS is producing SAMAS faster than they can produce the nuclear batteries? Or they're for cycling out w/ damaged SAMAS in case they can't make repairs fast enough, but CAN do quick-swaps of the nuclear batteries?

We've never been even given a tiny hint that any manufacturer cant keep up producing nuclear power packs, with the SOLE exception being Free Quebec (they dont have the tech to create the super-advanced micro-sized reactors for Glitter Boys fast enough, so they had to buy in extras from Triax, who had no issues of any kind providing FQ with all they needed as well as meeting their own manufacturing)

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

they're nuclear power plants, not batteries. small reactors with limited fuel, after 20 years they need to be replaced because they're worn out and do YOU want a tiny atomic reactor on your back to be taking it's last gasps?

We actually dont know what they really are. We know they are nuclear power plants, but that doesn't mean a reactor, necessarily. Just that its nuclear, and provides enough power for giant robots, power armor, etc.

The only one we're ever told the type of is the Glitter Boy (a "micro fusion reactor") which makes no sense since fusion reactors would require reaction mass (fuel), probably on the daily given how small the reactor is and that there is no large space for bunkerage.

So, its easier to just handwave it as "super advanced nuclear power supply of some kind" and leave it alone.

[Axelmania]

they're nuclear power plants, not batteries. small reactors with limited fuel, after 20 years they need to be replaced because they're worn out and do YOU want a tiny atomic reactor on your back to be taking it's last gasps?

My batteries (bad experiences forgetting them for a decade in old wireless mice / keyboard) need to be replaced from being worn out too, chemicals exploding and such.

I'm just wondering if say you only got 6 months of use out of a reactor before you had to deactivate your robot for 5 years until you can drag it by oxen to the nearest operator for repairs, if that means it would have 15 years remaining or if there might be some way to shut it down.

Like if there is a way for it to stop using fuel, stop wearing out, put it into a dormant status if you know you can't use it for YEARS on end.

They can be easily replaced, though.

Bionics Sourcebook 90-91 charges 2 million to replace a nuclear power cell (micro battery) for a cyborg. It's apparently similar to power sources for "man sized" bots/PA/vehicles but I'm not sure about giant ones.

Makes me wonder if we've ever seen any PA cheaper than 2 million... perhaps part of the expense is some kind of 'universal adaptor port' allowing it to be used in any PA, whereas the others come preloaded with kinds specific to only some?

Not sure if they would cost more (need more power output) or less (no miniaturization expenses). Has anyone seen the equivalent of this for bots?

The fuel itself is not the expensive part, its the containment and power creation portions that are expensive.

I have no idea what plutonium goes for in Rifts TBH

the power isn't being used, so its probably not decaying.
Thats why you see, under some robots/PA, a variable number of years for service life, or a "usually" X years notation. And there are some units that explicitly say "under heavy use, it lasts X, under normal use, Y" years. IF they still decay/lose power when they aren't actively being used, then they would do so wether they were in a PA or not, so removing them would be moot. If they simply need to be disconnected (so the PA isn't drawing reserve power, or whatever) they can just be disconnected and left in place.

Even if it was merely that, it might be some kind of time-consuming process to put them in and out of commission, perhaps more complex than plug+play?

Use could be so variable... like what if one PA was flying 1 hour per day and another 8 hours per day, should the 2nd last 8 times as long?

We've never been even given a tiny hint that any manufacturer cant keep up producing nuclear power packs, with the SOLE exception being Free Quebec (they dont have the tech to create the super-advanced micro-sized reactors for Glitter Boys fast enough, so they had to buy in extras from Triax, who had no issues of any kind providing FQ with all they needed as well as meeting their own manufacturing)

It may not be that the CS can't so much as, perhaps they have more immediate needs for the nuclear material than powering PA nobody's piloting, like lighting a city or powering a skelebot?

They might find it efficient (if stuff is getting destroyed a lot) to only generate enough nuclear batteries to power 10% of their bots/PA at any time, since they can usually retrieve them from destroyed vehicles/bots to reuse.

[Orin J.]

they're nuclear power plants, not batteries. small reactors with limited fuel, after 20 years they need to be replaced because they're worn out and do YOU want a tiny atomic reactor on your back to be taking it's last gasps?

I'm just wondering if say you only got 6 months of use out of a reactor before you had to deactivate your robot for 5 years until you can drag it by oxen to the nearest operator for repairs, if that means it would have 15 years remaining or if there might be some way to shut it down.

Like if there is a way for it to stop using fuel, stop wearing out, put it into a dormant status if you know you can't use it for YEARS on end.

the difference is that you can pull the fuel out of the reactor when you mothball it rather than removing the whole thing, which does effectively "pause" the reactor life, or at least slow it down to the point you can just refurbish it without much fuss before slapping a new fuel source in and powering it up.

i dunno what you'd have to do with the fuel rod, but i guess you could sell it and hope they're cheaper when you actually get it repaired so you turn a profit. it won't burn through near as fast as it would in a reactor but it still has a half-life and is dangerously radioactive unless you have a shielded container like the power plant is.

[Shark_Force]

The only one we're ever told the type of is the Glitter Boy (a "micro fusion reactor") which makes no sense since fusion reactors would require reaction mass (fuel), probably on the daily given how small the reactor is and that there is no large space for bunkerage.

So, its easier to just handwave it as "super advanced nuclear power supply of some kind" and leave it alone.

eh, the fuel is probably being stored behind the fridge-sized backpack they put the 1,000 flechette rounds for the boom gun in.* you just can't see it because the ammo drum gets in the way


* note: fridge-sized backpack not normally depicted.

[DD The Shmey]

Pretty sure that all of the robot and power armor sized nuclear power plants are fusion. The only explicit examples are fusion, mutants in orbit describes the vehicles being powered by fusion. And although I can't think of where in the books, I do recall other references to fusion reactors. Plus there is the fusion block explosives, which are miniaturized.

Now an important thing about fusion is that the fuel isnt plutonium or uranium or anything with a nasty half life putting out radiation. The best fuel for fusion is hydrogen. And the energy density is such that a little bit of it will go a long way. Easiest way to get pure hydrogen is through electrolysis of water. A vial of water smaller than a pop can would probably last a long time. I don't have the calcs in front of me but honestly if its just running on water, then I can easily forgive palladium authors from failing to mention needing to refill the water cup every few weeks. I mean it's likely that the robots have coolant systems and stuff that need water anyways, and is going to need periodic refilling just like a car's radiator. The books never describe what kind of periodic maintenance that robots and power armor require, but with all the mechanic skills and stuff I would figure that they need something. On the other hand... did they ever actually mention needing to refuel the nuclear reactors as being related to their life expectancy (10 year life, 20 year life, ect). It could just be that the containment system starts to break down from wear and fatigue over the years and needs to be refurbished or replaced.

As for the predecessor of the Enforcer UAR1, I always figured the ones described fighting against the Fed of Magic were of similar size and structure to the existing enforcer bot, but with maybe less armor, weapons, and other stats. Maybe without the Deaths head motif on its face. I also figured it was also based loosely on a pre-rifts design, but maybe not even a combat design, like a construction bot design that they upgraded, beefed up, and militarized. I say this because I figure that the first war machine that anybody builds in a post apocalyptic world would be based on something for a template at least.

[Orin J.]

Pretty sure that all of the robot and power armor sized nuclear power plants are fusion. The only explicit examples are fusion, mutants in orbit describes the vehicles being powered by fusion. And although I can't think of where in the books, I do recall other references to fusion reactors. Plus there is the fusion block explosives, which are miniaturized.

rifts mercs has an alien cyborg dealie that runs off a fusion plant that's flat out stated as technology rifts is decades from figuring out (at least) actually. they're probably running off thorium reactors in the case of power armors. not to mention the standard features in giant robots include a self destruct that causes a meltdown which....isn't possible with a fusion plant. fission plants fit the description of what i've read in rifts.

[Shark_Force]

mind you, the giant enforcer could also be an experimental version that was never put into production at all (and may have even built after, not before, the UAR-1).

which would leave us still wondering what the IAR-1 might have been =S

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

mind you, the giant enforcer could also be an experimental version that was never put into production at all (and may have even built after, not before, the UAR-1).

which would leave us still wondering what the IAR-1 might have been =S

The actual answer is there isnt one. IAR and UAR are simply role designators, and the “number” is simply the order in which the CS developed them. If you asked Kevin, im 99.999% sure thats the answer youd get.

The nomenclature SHOULD read something like “Coalition States Model 1, UAR Enforcer”, but that looks awful and is mouthful in conversation, so it gets shortened to UAR-1.

However, theres also no stated reason that they ARENT separate lines with equivalent numbers (So there could be both an IAR-1 and UAR-1).

The first is the way Kevin intended it (its just numbered in order, regardless of UAR, IAR or other designation), almost assuredly, but it works either way. There could be other designations, too, (though i tend to think both Triax and the CS have too many overlapping PA/Robots that serve the same roles) so there could AAR robots (Airborne Assault Robot), or AnAR (Anti-Air Robot), etc.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Pretty sure that all of the robot and power armor sized nuclear power plants are fusion. The only explicit examples are fusion, mutants in orbit describes the vehicles being powered by fusion. And although I can't think of where in the books, I do recall other references to fusion reactors. Plus there is the fusion block explosives, which are miniaturized.

rifts mercs has an alien cyborg dealie that runs off a fusion plant that's flat out stated as technology rifts is decades from figuring out (at least) actually. they're probably running off thorium reactors in the case of power armors. not to mention the standard features in giant robots include a self destruct that causes a meltdown which....isn't possible with a fusion plant. fission plants fit the description of what i've read in rifts.

And fusion literally requires expendable fuel - LOTS of it. Youre certainly not packing 20 years of reaction mass in a reactor the size of a suitcase (PA) or trunk (Robot/Tank/Vehicle) - even if they were absurdly efficient (literally fusing two atoms at a time) theyd run out in days at best.

Now, reaction mass can often be something as simple as heavy water, but you still have to bunker up often.

The advanced super cyborg in Mercs might have a reactor that distills reaction mass out of the atmosphere or something, but even Triax is decades or more away from that.

The stuff on Rifts Earth almost HAS to be a closed-loop fission reactor of some kind (radioactive element heats <medium> which causes it circulate inside its closed loop, turning super-advanced micro turbines or something, generating power. And likely the waste heat is ALSO used to generate power via some form of heat exchanger.

But what it aint is fusion, other than the GB (because its got a TARDIS-like bunkerage and ammo storage system, apparently). And the GB is only fusion because it explicitly says it is, regardless of how little sense it makes. (MiO, it makes sense and is feasible for ships to use fusion - they have room, even in a small ship, for tons of reaction mass bunkerage)

The only thing that makes sense is fission... or... just trying to not pay too much attention to it and just handwaving it.

[Axelmania]

mind you, the giant enforcer could also be an experimental version that was never put into production at all (and may have even built after, not before, the UAR-1).

which would leave us still wondering what the IAR-1 might have been =S

You mean not put into MASS production? Clearly at least 1 exists, or at least EXISTED. Looks like the Rhino Buffalo totalled it. Maybe they just built one and after it lost a battle they decided not to make any more?

IAR and UAR are simply role designators, and the “number” is simply the order in which the CS developed them.

This implies the Enforcer was the 1st developed though.

The problem with that is we are explicitly told it had a predecessor.

The exact timeline is unclear. We know the UAR-1 has been used for "over 20 years". I'm thinking the lack of "over thirty" means LESS than thirty years, personally. But let's assume for generosity they developed it in 70 PA.

We know the predecessor showed up "a few years" after 12 PA. Eight seems like more than "a few" so I think 20 PA is a decent estimate.

You have a HALF CENTURY GAP where the Enforcer's predecessor was used prior to the UAR-1. So it most likely was given a designation number of some sort.

It makes me wonder why they don't also assign numbers to power armor... anyone remember how many years prior to discovering Lone Star the CS had discovered the SAMAS?

I'm confident the discovery of Lone Star predates the development of the UAR-1 which means the SAMAS predates the UAR-1.

But I'm not sure if SAMAS predate the UAR-1's predecessor or not... I'm not even sure about the Dead Boy armor.

I think I remember it might've been Karl who invented the "death's head, we're all skeletons" motif so anything with that motif couldn't predate him becoming emperor, right? Prior to that (Joseph's day) would probably be non-skeleton stuff?

Maybe they had equivalents of SAMAS and Dead Boy armor (or near so) but without the skull heds?

Are there any references to using SAMAS to defend Chi-Down against the 12 PA invasion, maybe?

I understand what lead you to this thinking:

-1 = Enforcer
-2 = Abolisher
-3 = Skull Smasher
-4 = Hellraiser
-5 = Hellfire

We should note however that other robots use a different numerical series:

CR-003 = Spider-Skull Walker
CR-004 = Scout Spider-Skull Walker
CR-005 = Scorpion-Skull Walker

Firstly... I would retroactively name the CR-003 the "Standard Spider-Skull Walker" or something along those lines to give it some distinction from the CR-002.

That has an even bigger suspicious gap (what was the CR-001 and CR-002 ?)

My best guess is that CR stands for "Coalition Robot". I'm not exactly sure how long it's been in operation for, but I don't think it would predate the FoM invasion of Chi-Town since the Coalition was formed after that.

One possibly option might be to assume the CR-001 was a predecessor to both the Spider-Skull AND the enforcer? If the CR series predated the UAR/IAR series? Balancing on 6 legs is definitely easier than balancing on 2.

[Orin J.]

most likely the UAR/IAR and the CR are different development programs. the CR machine seem to be more targeted for use outside of developed areas like cities like the Urban Assault Robot.

[Shark_Force]

mind you, the giant enforcer could also be an experimental version that was never put into production at all (and may have even built after, not before, the UAR-1).

which would leave us still wondering what the IAR-1 might have been =S

You mean not put into MASS production? Clearly at least 1 exists, or at least EXISTED. Looks like the Rhino Buffalo totalled it. Maybe they just built one and after it lost a battle they decided not to make any more?

building experimental prototypes would not be described as putting something into production. in fact, to put something into production basically means that you are arranging for it to be produced, like, in a factory or something; arranging for the tools and machinery to be assembled so that you can produce it.

[ShadowLogan]

Cant be that much, or Power Armor wouldn't be feasible. It could also just be re-fueled. Remove old bar of plutonium, insert new bar. The reactor itself is probably just fine. The fuel itself is not the expensive part, its the containment and power creation portions that are expensive.

You also have to figure in cost of labor (which I assume is part of the cost) as you have requirements for a lot of skilled people involved which will drive up the cost (and then people willing to do the work, not every mechanic is going to want to work with nuclear fuel).

Makes me wonder if we've ever seen any PA cheaper than 2 million...

Yes there are suits available for less than 2million credits: H-Brant Ninja Bot (WB8), Tengu PA (WB8), NG-X13 Samson PA (MercOps), Titan Footman (MercOps), K-Universal PA (WB2), CS SAMAS PA (original and its reproductions), X-10 Predator (SB1o, NOT WB5 X-10A version), Dolphin/Whale PA (WB7), some of the PA in Mindwerks is also in the price range, NG-X9 Samson (RMB/RUE), Titan Flying PA (RMB/RUE).

ou mean not put into MASS production? Clearly at least 1 exists, or at least EXISTED. Looks like the Rhino Buffalo totalled it. Maybe they just built one and after it lost a battle they decided not to make any more?

Just because 1 exists does not mean it entered mass production. If we look at military fighter jets there are examples of some slots being used for designs that did not go into production, but still had examples built:
-YF-23 jet fighters where built to compete with the YF-22 (F-22 in production).
-YF-17
-YF-12 (a family relative of the SR-71 designed as a fighter instead of recon)
-F-20

Then you have examples that are for research like the X-planes of Nasa, but also variants of existing designs and even new designs that do not get the X designation but where still produced in a small lot (1 or 2, maybe a few more).

It makes me wonder why they don't also assign numbers to power armor... anyone remember how many years prior to discovering Lone Star the CS had discovered the SAMAS?

The CS Power Armor actually do have numbers in RMB, WB11, and SB4, RUE. The original SAMAS Power Armor starts at PA-06A (RMB/RUE,WB11)

The problem with that is we are explicitly told it had a predecessor.

The Enforcer's predecessor then exists under a different designation scheme than the UAR and IAR series, one that has apparently been discontinued or in one that has gaps in it (ex. CR line).

[Axelmania]

Yes there are suits available for less than 2million credits: H-Brant Ninja Bot (WB8), Tengu PA (WB8), NG-X13 Samson PA (MercOps), Titan Footman (MercOps), K-Universal PA (WB2), CS SAMAS PA (original and its reproductions), X-10 Predator (SB1o, NOT WB5 X-10A version), Dolphin/Whale PA (WB7), some of the PA in Mindwerks is also in the price range, NG-X9 Samson (RMB/RUE), Titan Flying PA (RMB/RUE).

We can exclude the Titan series (Archie is involved and he's willing to sell cheap so he can spy on you) but the other stuff does lead me to reconsider.

A couple things could explain:

1) power armor use larger nuclear batteries than cyborgs which are cheaper to produce because there are lower miniaturization costs

2) the 2 million replacement for borgs is more expensive because it's like a universal replacement whereas the ones which are built into power armor are not interchangeable between each other (IE you can't just replace your old glitter boy battery with a new SAMAS battery when it runs out) and that non-adaptability makes them less expensive to produce

The CS Power Armor actually do have numbers in RMB, WB11, and SB4, RUE. The original SAMAS Power Armor starts at PA-06A (RMB/RUE,WB11)

I saw that after and couldn't figure out why I overlooked it.

The numbering scheme on the SAMAS series reaises even more questions though... per CWC
pg 113 PA-06A "Old Style"
pg 114 PA-07A "Smiling Jack
pg 119 PA-08A "Striker"
pg 118 PA-09A "Super"

Ignoring the common elements (PA presumably standing for Power Armor, A presumably standing for "assault" since they are assault suits) numbering from 6-9 leads one to wonder: was there a quintet ranging from PA-01A to PA-05A preceding these?

Plus why is there a 0 before the number but not for the IAR series (eg it's IAR-2 and IAR-3 not IAR-02 and IAR-03).

Was it make 2-digit to begin with because they expected to make 10+ versions?

PA-09-AVT is used twice in New West (World Book 14)
*pg 183 Sidewinder
*pg 184 Wild Weasel

In both cases the VT seems to stand for "Vectored Thrust".

The duplication of the code for 2 distinct armors is I guess mirroring how PA-06A can be used for the original (lower-MDC) and later (higher-MDC) versions of the Old-Style SAMAS from RMB v CWC.

The Enforcer's predecessor then exists under a different designation scheme than the UAR and IAR series, one that has apparently been discontinued or in one that has gaps in it (ex. CR line).

That's only assuming the UAR/IAR are one continuous series. An IAR-1 being a predecessor to the UAR-1 and the IAR-2 could also explain it.

[ShadowLogan]

That's only assuming the UAR/IAR are one continuous series. An IAR-1 being a predecessor to the UAR-1 and the IAR-2 could also explain it.

Regardless of if the UAR and IAR are one continuous series or two separate series, there is the simple possibility that this Pre-Enforcer design is part of its own designation system. Nothing says the CS has to use the same system for its entire history.

PA-09-AVT is used twice in New West (World Book 14)
*pg 183 Sidewinder
*pg 184 Wild Weasel

That's because they are the same basic power armor suit ("Wild Weasel version of the Sidwider"-pg184 in the fluff), just equipped for different missions. The Wild Weasel is the equivalent of the F-4G or EA-6 Prowler or F/A-18G configurations for the standard (in this case Sidwwinder) for the F-4 Phantom or A-6 Intruder or F/A-18F Super Hornet.

was there a quintet ranging from PA-01A to PA-05A preceding these?

Most likely, though what they are is never elaborated upon AFAIK.
Then again...

Plus why is there a 0 before the number but not for the IAR series (eg it's IAR-2 and IAR-3 not IAR-02 and IAR-03).

Was it make 2-digit to begin with because they expected to make 10+ versions?

I doubt it has to do with 10+ versions. To further complicate this look at the non-SAMAS in WB11 (PA-100/200/300). The zero prefix is used on the CR spider walker series (-004/005) in WB11.

So I would not read to much into it, there are ways to explain it but it might require separate explanations for each sequence line. Power Armor might just be the first digit is the model number followed by a block number, it doesn't work for the CR series though.

[Orin J.]

Yes there are suits available for less than 2million credits: H-Brant Ninja Bot (WB8), Tengu PA (WB8), NG-X13 Samson PA (MercOps), Titan Footman (MercOps), K-Universal PA (WB2), CS SAMAS PA (original and its reproductions), X-10 Predator (SB1o, NOT WB5 X-10A version), Dolphin/Whale PA (WB7), some of the PA in Mindwerks is also in the price range, NG-X9 Samson (RMB/RUE), Titan Flying PA (RMB/RUE).

We can exclude the Titan series (Archie is involved and he's willing to sell cheap so he can spy on you) but the other stuff does lead me to reconsider.

A couple things could explain:

1) power armor use larger nuclear batteries than cyborgs which are cheaper to produce because there are lower miniaturization costs

2) the 2 million replacement for borgs is more expensive because it's like a universal replacement whereas the ones which are built into power armor are not interchangeable between each other (IE you can't just replace your old glitter boy battery with a new SAMAS battery when it runs out) and that non-adaptability makes them less expensive to produce

also 3) the cyborg replacement is ALSO a medical procedure, and has to be done very exactly because you can leave a SAMAS on the rack for two weeks trying to figure out which plug goes in which part of the suit but the cyborg needs to have their power plant replaced and resealed on a timetable to avoid complications that might prove fatal.

[Axelmania]

Regardless of if the UAR and IAR are one continuous series or two separate series, there is the simple possibility that this Pre-Enforcer design is part of its own designation system. Nothing says the CS has to use the same system for its entire history.

I agree, as above, for all I know it's referring to some early version of a Spider-Skull walker, the "CR" series.

In which case, you could be right about UAR-1>IAR2 being one series, or we might still have a mysterious IAR1 somewhere.

That's because they are the same basic power armor suit ("Wild Weasel version of the Sidwider"-pg184 in the fluff), just equipped for different missions. The Wild Weasel is the equivalent of the F-4G or EA-6 Prowler or F/A-18G configurations for the standard (in this case Sidwwinder) for the F-4 Phantom or A-6 Intruder or F/A-18F Super Hornet.

Ah okay, or in terms I can better understand, like the X-535 (NGRp55) whether it uses the TX-843P (p57) or TX-862FC or TX-884I (both pg 58) or TX-871MM (pg 60)

also 3) the cyborg replacement is ALSO a medical procedure, and has to be done very exactly because you can leave a SAMAS on the rack for two weeks trying to figure out which plug goes in which part of the suit but the cyborg needs to have their power plant replaced and resealed on a timetable to avoid complications that might prove fatal.

Not sure I understand, are you thinking the 2 million cost includes installation fees?

[Mlp7029]

It is certainly possible there was a IAR-1 that was not put into production. In our game the manned version of the Enforcer is IAR-1 and the UAR-1 is the Urban Assault Robot (Unmanned). Kind of a giant skelebot which can have one pilot/passenger if desired.

[Axelmania]

Another possibility: what if a Vanguard Mystic came along and cast 'Giant' on an Enforcer?

I can't remember if that spell has language prohibiting it's use on robots instead of people, or if we just tend to assume that because of how anti-tech magic seems to be.

Like I would be prone to assuming I couldn't bolster a Skelebot to Supernatural PS 30 using the 'Superhuman Strength' spell but actually can't recall if there is text prohibiting me from doing that.

For all I know there are vanguard going around enchanting skelebots with superhuman PS so they can punch harder causing great confusion for psi-stalkers who say the skelebots are compromised and need to be scrapped, etc.

Could I cast Impervious to Energy on a skelebot to protect them from mage fireballs? etc