Board index » MDC Worlds » Rifts®

 


Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
 Post subject: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:06 am
  

Explorer

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 11:13 pm
Posts: 149
What do you believe is necessary for a well rounded group?

First is your med pick:
Ideally you need at least 1 character to spec into tech because technology will be an ever-present force; I'd go as far to say that this MUST be an OCC/RCC/PCC, specifically something dealing with maintenance so you get that extra skill boost. Ideally, you should also spec into cybernetics and bionics. If you do this you will be a vital medic to your group because actual doctors in this game are useless.

Well, not completely, you WILL need someone who can deal with sicknesses (i.e. just take the skill).

Next is your tank build:
RIFTS Earth is not a balanced place, having a character that can eat MDC is valuable to the party (and the DM). I recommend this be a supernatural creature, but you could get away with a borg or pilot.

Third is the cash cow:
Usually this will be a sharpshooter, but can be any number of things: prospectors, mechanic, (supernatural) organ harvester... Point is, having a secondary flow of income can be very useful and it also breaks up the grind of contract work.

Also, fighter: x2
You need at least x2 fighters, which at minimum will likely be a tank and sharpshooter. That being said, alot of classes will fall into this category; so long as you have decent combat bonuses, good strike, and/or many actions- then you should be good to go as a fighter.

Finally are your skill picks:
You need skills that will make a character an efficient navigator, not just by land but also faction lore.

You need skills that allows you to identify the difference between psionics, magic, supernatural, supers/mutants, aliens, and D-bees. Who, or what, you interact with can be a very dangerous prospect. A psi/mage pick could rectify this, and offer defenses, but TW/TK options make such a choice unnecessary.

Reading, writing, mathematics, and research/information gathering are unbelievably important skills.

Swimming, rivers man. . . RIVERS!!!

________________________________________________

Anyway, feel free to post what you think makes a well rounded group; go as meta or class specific as you'd like.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:36 am
  

User avatar
Adventurer

Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:00 pm
Posts: 555
Location: a west coast
i remember my first rifts game. the GM built a very carefully balanced and well designed group for getting through our first adventure.

we spent the whole thing lost in our giant walking RV fiddling with the various totally normal parts and never once even glanced out to see the plot. i don't believe there's a thing as a "well-rounded group" of PCs, just a good group of players.

_________________
Looking for some inexpensive weapons? Try chipwell's weapons lineup!


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:21 am
  

User avatar
Megaversal® Ambassador

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:23 am
Posts: 2443
Location: Houston, TX
Comment: "I will not be silenced. I will not submit. I will find the truth and shout it to the world. "
Orin J. wrote:
i remember my first rifts game. the GM built a very carefully balanced and well designed group for getting through our first adventure.

we spent the whole thing lost in our giant walking RV fiddling with the various totally normal parts and never once even glanced out to see the plot. i don't believe there's a thing as a "well-rounded group" of PCs, just a good group of players.

Agreed. I think a lot of other systems and even other PB games require a balanced group but not Rifts. I remember running 1e Invid Invasion and when the group was created they made sure there were two characters that could fix the mechs and most of the characters had first aid or paramedic if they could. Rifts has psionics, magic and advanced tech all of which can cover those bases.

I think these days the big thing that has to be covered is lore and languages. RMB only had 2 lores and a few languages but Rifts has added a pile of both and I always add a bunch more.

_________________
Northern Gun Chief of Robotics
Designer of NG-X40 Storm Hammer Power Armor & NG-HC1000 Dragonfly Hover Chopper
Big game hunter, explorer extra ordinaire and expert on the Aegis Buffalo
Ultimate Insider for WB 32: Lemuria, WB 33: Northern Gun 1, WB 34: Northern Gun 2
Showdown Backer Robotech RPG Tactics
Benefactor Insider Rifts Bestiary: Vol 1, Rifts Bestiary: Vol 2


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:20 pm
  

User avatar
Supreme Being

Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 2:01 am
Posts: 6343
Location: Communing with the Keepers of the Desert
Comment: This space for rent.
And picking a team really depends on the game's power level. Are we talking Glitter Boys and Dragons, or Vagabonds and Grunts? While the team doesn't have to balanced, it helps to have a baseline.

_________________
Some gave all.
Love your neighbor.
Know the facts. Know your opinion. Know the difference.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:44 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 6410
Location: WI
Warshield73 wrote:
RMB only had 2 lores and a few languages but Rifts has added a pile of both and I always add a bunch more.


A pile of languages is an understatement, compared to Lore the language skill option is practically a mountain. I don't have all the Rifts Books, but when I compiled a list years ago (which would be missing ~40 Rifts Titles to date) I had 57 non-human tongues I found specifically identified (74 more races that don't identify with any existing or suggestive of new language), 12 possible "forgotten" non-human tongues (they "adopted" a new language, what it replaced...), 3 OCC related tongues, suggestion of 3 separate telepathic languages, 6 PW Trade languages (one of which involved telepathy), and 30 human languages (a few are generic catchall to and might diversify in books I don't have). This was just from NPC skill listings or separate skill listings and avoided non-Rifts titles. AFAIK only 16 Lore Skills exist in my collection vs 100+ languages.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:26 am
  

User avatar
Megaversal® Ambassador

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:23 am
Posts: 2443
Location: Houston, TX
Comment: "I will not be silenced. I will not submit. I will find the truth and shout it to the world. "
Mack wrote:
And picking a team really depends on the game's power level. Are we talking Glitter Boys and Dragons, or Vagabonds and Grunts? While the team doesn't have to balanced, it helps to have a baseline.

This to me comes down to a session Zero. Your players and GM work out what kind of game you want to play and the power level. If all the players agree on a high power campaign and one player decides on a low power character then they have to work with the GM to make him relevant.

ShadowLogan wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
RMB only had 2 lores and a few languages but Rifts has added a pile of both and I always add a bunch more.

A pile of languages is an understatement, compared to Lore the language skill option is practically a mountain. I don't have all the Rifts Books, but when I compiled a list years ago (which would be missing ~40 Rifts Titles to date) I had 57 non-human tongues I found specifically identified (74 more races that don't identify with any existing or suggestive of new language), 12 possible "forgotten" non-human tongues (they "adopted" a new language, what it replaced...), 3 OCC related tongues, suggestion of 3 separate telepathic languages, 6 PW Trade languages (one of which involved telepathy), and 30 human languages (a few are generic catchall to and might diversify in books I don't have). This was just from NPC skill listings or separate skill listings and avoided non-Rifts titles. AFAIK only 16 Lore Skills exist in my collection vs 100+ languages.

Let's be honest languages are actually limitless but I usually only have about a dozen in the center of things with a few ancient languages thrown in here and there. Languages though are easy in Rifts because you have language translators and spells like tongues and eyes of Thoth.

It is easy to work around languages in Rifts but lore skills are a must and you can't bring in an NPC to explain it every time. The only real meta gaming I do in my session zero is I usually have a list of the Lore skills and explain there purpose. The players then usually divide it up to try and get as many in as possible so they know what they are fighting or where they are going.

_________________
Northern Gun Chief of Robotics
Designer of NG-X40 Storm Hammer Power Armor & NG-HC1000 Dragonfly Hover Chopper
Big game hunter, explorer extra ordinaire and expert on the Aegis Buffalo
Ultimate Insider for WB 32: Lemuria, WB 33: Northern Gun 1, WB 34: Northern Gun 2
Showdown Backer Robotech RPG Tactics
Benefactor Insider Rifts Bestiary: Vol 1, Rifts Bestiary: Vol 2


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:38 pm
  

Explorer

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 11:13 pm
Posts: 149
Mack wrote:
And picking a team really depends on the game's power level. Are we talking Glitter Boys and Dragons, or Vagabonds and Grunts? While the team doesn't have to balanced, it helps to have a baseline.

Warshield73 wrote:
Mack wrote:
And picking a team really depends on the game's power level. Are we talking Glitter Boys and Dragons, or Vagabonds and Grunts? While the team doesn't have to balanced, it helps to have a baseline.
This to me comes down to a session Zero. Your players and GM work out what kind of game you want to play and the power level. If all the players agree on a high power campaign and one player decides on a low power character then they have to work with the GM to make him relevant.


This is why I believe a tank role is required, so that you don't necessarily have to worry about power level.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:05 pm
  

Explorer

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 11:13 pm
Posts: 149
Warshield73 wrote:
Languages though are easy in Rifts because you have language translators and spells like tongues and eyes of Thoth.

It is easy to work around languages in Rifts but lore skills are a must and you can't bring in an NPC to explain it every time.

I forgot about that, had a fellow companion who hired a camera crew to follow him around. Being able to hire people for their skills is actually quite useful.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:41 pm
  

User avatar
Megaversal® Ambassador

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:23 am
Posts: 2443
Location: Houston, TX
Comment: "I will not be silenced. I will not submit. I will find the truth and shout it to the world. "
Sohisohi wrote:
Mack wrote:
And picking a team really depends on the game's power level. Are we talking Glitter Boys and Dragons, or Vagabonds and Grunts? While the team doesn't have to balanced, it helps to have a baseline.

Warshield73 wrote:
Mack wrote:
And picking a team really depends on the game's power level. Are we talking Glitter Boys and Dragons, or Vagabonds and Grunts? While the team doesn't have to balanced, it helps to have a baseline.
This to me comes down to a session Zero. Your players and GM work out what kind of game you want to play and the power level. If all the players agree on a high power campaign and one player decides on a low power character then they have to work with the GM to make him relevant.


This is why I believe a tank role is required, so that you don't necessarily have to worry about power level.

The power level, as Mack was discussing it, is more about game balance. It is more about making sure that every player has something to do and that 1 or 2 players don't dominate all the action.

Sohisohi wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Languages though are easy in Rifts because you have language translators and spells like tongues and eyes of Thoth.

It is easy to work around languages in Rifts but lore skills are a must and you can't bring in an NPC to explain it every time.

I forgot about that, had a fellow companion who hired a camera crew to follow him around. Being able to hire people for their skills is actually quite useful.

In this case I'm not talking about people with skills I am talking about electronic auto translators and computer based translation programs.

Now you can hire NPCs like Operators to fix vehicles, scholars to read and interpret texts, scientists to study an artifact, or doctors/psychics/mages to heal you but you can also get those things for yourself. Technology, psionics and magic can all be used to replace specific skills in system making it very different from say a BTS or HU or especially a Robotech.

_________________
Northern Gun Chief of Robotics
Designer of NG-X40 Storm Hammer Power Armor & NG-HC1000 Dragonfly Hover Chopper
Big game hunter, explorer extra ordinaire and expert on the Aegis Buffalo
Ultimate Insider for WB 32: Lemuria, WB 33: Northern Gun 1, WB 34: Northern Gun 2
Showdown Backer Robotech RPG Tactics
Benefactor Insider Rifts Bestiary: Vol 1, Rifts Bestiary: Vol 2


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:50 pm
  

Hero

Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:08 am
Posts: 826
Comment: They/Them
In certain games technology needs might be met via an Eco-Wizard/Shaman/Jungle Elf with access to the Restore Bio-Armor spell, so while in a broad sense a party should probably have some facility with traditional technology allowances can be made. Ranged combat capabilities and damage soaking are about in the same boat, although in a game set inside an arcology or something that too could be minimized.

I'm wondering about OCCs able to best assist in the knowing of different History/Lores. A Rogue Scholar/Lemurian Academic could cover all the bases, with the former able to educate others. A Paradox Shaman has limited access to any sort of information in that vein. The Traveling Storyteller has all Lores applicable to Europe and Asia, for which I guess I'd need to see a comprehensive list. Does anything else come to mind?


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:06 pm
  

User avatar
Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:01 pm
Posts: 233
Location: South-East of Arzno
Comment: For the White Rose!!!
Because, apparently, my new group thinks of tanks differently than I do, would my Mystic Knight of the White Rose, who is immune to energy weapons damage and wears TW Regenerating Infiltration Armor with 100 MDC along with a Talisman of Armor with 100 MDC 3 times a day, be considered a tank or a caster?
I consider him a tank because his spells are rather limited and the GM thinks I am using him incorrectly. He doesn't think I should be wading into battle screaming, "You want me, well here I am, sweetheart!" Then killing the bad guys with my Xiti TK-Rifle. He thinks I'm just asking to get dead when I do that.

_________________
There are two kinds of people in this world... 1: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 5:25 pm
  

User avatar
Megaversal® Ambassador

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:23 am
Posts: 2443
Location: Houston, TX
Comment: "I will not be silenced. I will not submit. I will find the truth and shout it to the world. "
Curbludgeon wrote:
In certain games technology needs might be met via an Eco-Wizard/Shaman/Jungle Elf with access to the Restore Bio-Armor spell, so while in a broad sense a party should probably have some facility with traditional technology allowances can be made. Ranged combat capabilities and damage soaking are about in the same boat, although in a game set inside an arcology or something that too could be minimized.

I'm wondering about OCCs able to best assist in the knowing of different History/Lores. A Rogue Scholar/Lemurian Academic could cover all the bases, with the former able to educate others. A Paradox Shaman has limited access to any sort of information in that vein. The Traveling Storyteller has all Lores applicable to Europe and Asia, for which I guess I'd need to see a comprehensive list. Does anything else come to mind?

You can't beat a Rogue scholar for history, lore and even language but truthfully you don't need one expert. Rogue Scientists are a better OCC overall able to pilot power armors and have the same bonus to history and lore skills. The Ley Line Walker starts with 5 lore skills and many OCCs have at least a +5% if not a +10 or 15% bonus to those skills as well. This means you don't need 1 character with all the skills, each PC can have a few areas of expertise. You also have technology like the Wilks PC 2020 which can be used to aid with visual recognition can help this.

HarleeKnight wrote:
Because, apparently, my new group thinks of tanks differently than I do, would my Mystic Knight of the White Rose, who is immune to energy weapons damage and wears TW Regenerating Infiltration Armor with 100 MDC along with a Talisman of Armor with 100 MDC 3 times a day, be considered a tank or a caster?
I consider him a tank because his spells are rather limited and the GM thinks I am using him incorrectly. He doesn't think I should be wading into battle screaming, "You want me, well here I am, sweetheart!" Then killing the bad guys with my Xiti TK-Rifle. He thinks I'm just asking to get dead when I do that.


To me a tank can be either something that can absorb massive damage or deal out massive damage. If you can do both you are massive tank. In my original Rifts group I had a GB, a headhunter in a CS Enforcer and a hatchling dragon. The RMB dragons did very little damage but he was big and scary and had like 350 MDC so he was actually ''the" tank of the group to the point that the GB and Enforcer could just attack without having to worry about defending themselves for the first round or two. Once he was down below a hundred MDC he would teleport somewhere to recover then the enemies would turn to the others but he could regenerate in hours what they would have to spend days repairing.

Depending on how you build your character you can fulfill at least some aspects of any of the above roles.

_________________
Northern Gun Chief of Robotics
Designer of NG-X40 Storm Hammer Power Armor & NG-HC1000 Dragonfly Hover Chopper
Big game hunter, explorer extra ordinaire and expert on the Aegis Buffalo
Ultimate Insider for WB 32: Lemuria, WB 33: Northern Gun 1, WB 34: Northern Gun 2
Showdown Backer Robotech RPG Tactics
Benefactor Insider Rifts Bestiary: Vol 1, Rifts Bestiary: Vol 2


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:11 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 6410
Location: WI
Warshield73 wrote:
Let's be honest languages are actually limitless but I usually only have about a dozen in the center of things with a few ancient languages thrown in here and there. Languages though are easy in Rifts because you have language translators and spells like tongues and eyes of Thoth.

It is easy to work around languages in Rifts but lore skills are a must and you can't bring in an NPC to explain it every time. The only real meta gaming I do in my session zero is I usually have a list of the Lore skills and explain there purpose. The players then usually divide it up to try and get as many in as possible so they know what they are fighting or where they are going.

I agree languages are limitless, but you can also get that way with Lore skills depending on how specialized you want to get.

Language translators (tech and spell) have their place, but they also have their limits vs someone who knows the language. Spells have duration and PPE requirements, both of which could become issues in long exchanges/negotiations. Tech translators have to have the language in their database, it isn't a given it will work in all cases.

HarleeKnight wrote:
Because, apparently, my new group thinks of tanks differently than I do, would my Mystic Knight of the White Rose, who is immune to energy weapons damage and wears TW Regenerating Infiltration Armor with 100 MDC along with a Talisman of Armor with 100 MDC 3 times a day, be considered a tank or a caster?
I consider him a tank because his spells are rather limited and the GM thinks I am using him incorrectly. He doesn't think I should be wading into battle screaming, "You want me, well here I am, sweetheart!" Then killing the bad guys with my Xiti TK-Rifle. He thinks I'm just asking to get dead when I do that.

All that MDC/protectiveness makes you a tank, but when fighting non-energy weapon users and/or your Talismans are used up (for the day) you switch to being a caster.

I don't think you are using the Mystic Knight incorrectly (in general, I don't have Madhaven so WR variant might be different).


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 12:44 am
  

Hero

Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:08 am
Posts: 826
Comment: They/Them
I've gone through most everything looking for Lore skills.
Spoiler:
Lore:Aborigines/American Indians/Astral Plane/Cattle&Animals/Chinese Classical Studies/Chinese Mythology:Taoist/Chinese Mythology:Buddhist/D-Bees/Demons&Monsters/Dimensions/Dinosaurs/Dreamtime Culture/Faeries&Creatures of Magic/Geomancy&Ley Lines(Feng Shui)/History of Russia/Japanese Mythology/Juicers/Knowledge of Magic (for military applications)/Magic/Military History*/Mythology**/Psychics&Psionics/Religion/Rifts China(for those not in China)/Sea Creatures/Splugorth*/Swamp&Everglades/The Cities/Vampires/Voodoo*/Western(for those in China)

Dimension Books add: Lore: Wormwood/Galactic&Alien/Hades
PFRPG adds: Lore: Culture&Customs:General or specific domain of Man/Undead/Witch/Zodiac
Nightbane adds: Lore: Astral/Dreamstream/Factions/Nightbane/Nightlands
BTS adds:Lore: Aliens&UFOlogy/Cults&Secret Societies/Entities&Ghosts/Magic:Arcane/Superstitions, Streetwise:Weird
Splicers adds: Machine Lore

And there are some Lore-adjacent skills like Anthropology/Archaeology/History/Law/Research

*=(listed 1/each only in NPC stat blocks)
**=I know RUE has doesn't list it as a Lore skill, but multiple other sources do.
Obviously not all of those would see use in one game, and many are effectively regional equivalents of each other. Even trimming out the one-offs and skills from regions that might never see play like China/Australia/other dimensions, there still are quite a lot to juggle.

While it's similarly obvious that the Lore/History needs of a party can be divided among members, I kinda want to spitball a Lorekeeper build or two.
A couple of fun things I dug up:
Non-Combat Robots from Sourcebook 1 can have up to 6 Lores each, while also snagging a Law and History.
The Lord Magus and Layer of Laws (Mystic Russia) OCCs are shown having All Lores as OCC skills. That clearly means 5 or so, and not everything from above, but YMMV.
The Durosk from DB5 can be a scientist or scholar OCC with an additional 2 Lores and several languages.

All that said, I half want to write up a HU character that's a mix between a Natural Genius and an Immortal, with Total Recall and the Bookworm minor ability.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:51 am
  

User avatar
Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:01 pm
Posts: 233
Location: South-East of Arzno
Comment: For the White Rose!!!
Curbludgeon wrote:
I've gone through most everything looking for Lore skills.
Spoiler:
Lore:Aborigines/American Indians/Astral Plane/Cattle&Animals/Chinese Classical Studies/Chinese Mythology:Taoist/Chinese Mythology:Buddhist/D-Bees/Demons&Monsters/Dimensions/Dinosaurs/Dreamtime Culture/Faeries&Creatures of Magic/Geomancy&Ley Lines(Feng Shui)/History of Russia/Japanese Mythology/Juicers/Knowledge of Magic (for military applications)/Magic/Military History*/Mythology**/Psychics&Psionics/Religion/Rifts China(for those not in China)/Sea Creatures/Splugorth*/Swamp&Everglades/The Cities/Vampires/Voodoo*/Western(for those in China)

Dimension Books add: Lore: Wormwood/Galactic&Alien/Hades
PFRPG adds: Lore: Culture&Customs:General or specific domain of Man/Undead/Witch/Zodiac
Nightbane adds: Lore: Astral/Dreamstream/Factions/Nightbane/Nightlands
BTS adds:Lore: Aliens&UFOlogy/Cults&Secret Societies/Entities&Ghosts/Magic:Arcane/Superstitions, Streetwise:Weird
Splicers adds: Machine Lore

And there are some Lore-adjacent skills like Anthropology/Archaeology/History/Law/Research

*=(listed 1/each only in NPC stat blocks)
**=I know RUE has doesn't list it as a Lore skill, but multiple other sources do.
Obviously not all of those would see use in one game, and many are effectively regional equivalents of each other. Even trimming out the one-offs and skills from regions that might never see play like China/Australia/other dimensions, there still are quite a lot to juggle.

While it's similarly obvious that the Lore/History needs of a party can be divided among members, I kinda want to spitball a Lorekeeper build or two.
A couple of fun things I dug up:
Non-Combat Robots from Sourcebook 1 can have up to 6 Lores each, while also snagging a Law and History.
The Lord Magus and Layer of Laws (Mystic Russia) OCCs are shown having All Lores as OCC skills. That clearly means 5 or so, and not everything from above, but YMMV.
The Durosk from DB5 can be a scientist or scholar OCC with an additional 2 Lores and several languages.

All that said, I half want to write up a HU character that's a mix between a Natural Genius and an Immortal, with Total Recall and the Bookworm minor ability.


A Paradox Shaman (WB: 15 Spirit West) gets a type of Earth History Lore naturally and starts with D-Bees & Monsters Lore (+20), and Indian Lore (+30). He can also choose up to 5 Lores at +15. Even if you spend all the chosen skills on Lores, they are still a kick ass PC.

_________________
There are two kinds of people in this world... 1: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:41 am
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 5
Sohisohi wrote:
Mack wrote:
And picking a team really depends on the game's power level. Are we talking Glitter Boys and Dragons, or Vagabonds and Grunts? While the team doesn't have to balanced, it helps to have a baseline.

Warshield73 wrote:
Mack wrote:
And picking a team really depends on the game's power level. Are we talking Glitter Boys and Dragons, or Vagabonds and Grunts? While the team doesn't have to balanced, it helps to have a baseline.
This to me comes down to a session Zero. Your players and GM work out what kind of game you want to play and the power level. If all the players agree on a high power campaign and one player decides on a low power character then they have to work with the GM to make him relevant.


This is why I believe a tank role is required, so that you don't necessarily have to worry about power level.


This isnt an MMO. Theres no “taunt” mechanic. If the guy playing a lower powered character (when the party agreed on higher-end play) gets caught out, the bad guys arent going to suddenly turn around and shoot at a Borg for no reason. This is not say the party doesnt need people who can soak up damage - they do. But the party also has to set up the situation so that the bad guys will focus on said people. They arent going to shoot at the “tank” just because. Theyll shoot at whoever is most exposed and seems most dangerous.

_________________
Im loving the Foes list; it's the only thing keeping me from tearing out my eyes from the dumb.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:38 am
  

User avatar
Supreme Being

Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 2:01 am
Posts: 6343
Location: Communing with the Keepers of the Desert
Comment: This space for rent.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Sohisohi wrote:
Mack wrote:
And picking a team really depends on the game's power level. Are we talking Glitter Boys and Dragons, or Vagabonds and Grunts? While the team doesn't have to balanced, it helps to have a baseline.

Warshield73 wrote:
Mack wrote:
And picking a team really depends on the game's power level. Are we talking Glitter Boys and Dragons, or Vagabonds and Grunts? While the team doesn't have to balanced, it helps to have a baseline.
This to me comes down to a session Zero. Your players and GM work out what kind of game you want to play and the power level. If all the players agree on a high power campaign and one player decides on a low power character then they have to work with the GM to make him relevant.


This is why I believe a tank role is required, so that you don't necessarily have to worry about power level.


This isnt an MMO. Theres no “taunt” mechanic. If the guy playing a lower powered character (when the party agreed on higher-end play) gets caught out, the bad guys arent going to suddenly turn around and shoot at a Borg for no reason. This is not say the party doesnt need people who can soak up damage - they do. But the party also has to set up the situation so that the bad guys will focus on said people. They arent going to shoot at the “tank” just because. Theyll shoot at whoever is most exposed and seems most dangerous.


Murphy’s Laws of Combat 08: Don’t look conspicuous, it draws fire.
Murphy’s Laws of Combat 34: Teamwork is essential, it gives them someone else to shoot at.
Murphy’s Laws of Combat 55: Try to look unimportant, they may be low on ammo.
Murphy’s Laws of Combat 68: Don’t look conspicuous; it draws fire. For this reason, it is not at all uncommon for aircraft carriers to be known as bomb magnets.

:)

_________________
Some gave all.
Love your neighbor.
Know the facts. Know your opinion. Know the difference.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:30 pm
  

User avatar
Megaversal® Ambassador

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:23 am
Posts: 2443
Location: Houston, TX
Comment: "I will not be silenced. I will not submit. I will find the truth and shout it to the world. "
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Sohisohi wrote:
Mack wrote:
And picking a team really depends on the game's power level. Are we talking Glitter Boys and Dragons, or Vagabonds and Grunts? While the team doesn't have to balanced, it helps to have a baseline.

Warshield73 wrote:
Mack wrote:
And picking a team really depends on the game's power level. Are we talking Glitter Boys and Dragons, or Vagabonds and Grunts? While the team doesn't have to balanced, it helps to have a baseline.
This to me comes down to a session Zero. Your players and GM work out what kind of game you want to play and the power level. If all the players agree on a high power campaign and one player decides on a low power character then they have to work with the GM to make him relevant.


This is why I believe a tank role is required, so that you don't necessarily have to worry about power level.


This isnt an MMO. Theres no “taunt” mechanic. If the guy playing a lower powered character (when the party agreed on higher-end play) gets caught out, the bad guys arent going to suddenly turn around and shoot at a Borg for no reason. This is not say the party doesnt need people who can soak up damage - they do. But the party also has to set up the situation so that the bad guys will focus on said people. They arent going to shoot at the “tank” just because. Theyll shoot at whoever is most exposed and seems most dangerous.

While Rifts doesn't require a specific group build I think it does help to have certain things in the group. Having a mage on the team allows you to not only make use of certain spells but also gets you into the culture. They can be a narrative vessel for taking you into the culture of mages and magic. A character with psionics can do the same there, especially if they are major or master psionic.

Not to be overly PC but the more diverse the group is the more you as a GM has to work with. Most of the groups I have run over the last 20 years have been pretty diverse with lots of nonhumans, mages and such but a few years ago I had a small group of 4 players (GB, Cyber-Knight, operator, mind melter) that were all humans. When I sat down to plan out the first season of the game and I was shocked as to how many things I couldn't do with all humans and no mages. They had all the lore skills and even some history covered but still lots they couldn't do.

_________________
Northern Gun Chief of Robotics
Designer of NG-X40 Storm Hammer Power Armor & NG-HC1000 Dragonfly Hover Chopper
Big game hunter, explorer extra ordinaire and expert on the Aegis Buffalo
Ultimate Insider for WB 32: Lemuria, WB 33: Northern Gun 1, WB 34: Northern Gun 2
Showdown Backer Robotech RPG Tactics
Benefactor Insider Rifts Bestiary: Vol 1, Rifts Bestiary: Vol 2


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:00 pm
  

User avatar
Champion

Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 3022
Location: Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy
There are a huge number of roles that need to be performed in an adventure. Off the top of my head:

1. Occupy the enemy's attention/attacks.
2. Attack the enemy.
3. Make your side fight better.
4. Make the other side fight worse.
5. Escape your foes
6. Pursue your foes
7. Avoid your foes
8. Track your foes
9. Work in the game environment (city, wilderness, space)
10. Work with the people in the environment.
11. Fix Damaged Machines
12. Heal injured people / creatures.
13. Overcome physical obstacles
14. Create physical obstacles.
15. Talk to / Influence NPCs
16. Know stuff

The more characters you have in your party, the more specialized you can be with your characters, and vice-versa. If you have a small group, then spell-casters and psychics can cover a lot of these roles.

_________________
Hotrod
Bizantium and the Northern Isles, p65 map
Arenas of Atlantis, Rifter 69
Check out my maps here!
Also, check out my Instant NPC Generators!
Like what you see? There's more on my Patreon Page.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:38 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 5
HarleeKnight wrote:
Because, apparently, my new group thinks of tanks differently than I do, would my Mystic Knight of the White Rose, who is immune to energy weapons damage and wears TW Regenerating Infiltration Armor with 100 MDC along with a Talisman of Armor with 100 MDC 3 times a day, be considered a tank or a caster?
I consider him a tank because his spells are rather limited and the GM thinks I am using him incorrectly. He doesn't think I should be wading into battle screaming, "You want me, well here I am, sweetheart!" Then killing the bad guys with my Xiti TK-Rifle. He thinks I'm just asking to get dead when I do that.


Your GM might want to actually read the description of Mystic Knights.

They prefer to use Melee Weapons, ffs. They are VERY MUCH in-your-face warriors, as described.

Mystics make poor spellcasters anyway. In addition to a dearth of spells (being unable to learn whatever you want whenever you want is a massive handicap), they have limited PPE compared to other spellcasters (and because they cant learn any spell at any time, have ZERO access to the spells that ameliorate this problem like Energy Sphere or Talisman until they are absurdly high level), dont get good bonuses to spell strength, MUST be high level to use high level spells (which hugely limits their power)...

Theyre weak casters.

Theyre great buffers, great when you need both a mage and psychic in the party, etc.. and Mystic Knights, in particular, are great combatants. They can use their innate Impervious To Energy to great affect coupled with Armor of Ithan and Armor Bizarre (as well as potentially Invulnerability and Energy Field) to get right up in people's faces and carve them into bits. They can spend their limited PPE on buff spells that will last a lot longer and lead to a lot more kills than casting a few offensive spells would.

And the White Rose Knights are even better - they have access to some TW Melee weapons the "regular" Mystic Knights dont that are absolutely amazing.

The one that creates a blade that does your Energy Blast Damage + 2D6 is nuts. Add fencing to that (you did take Fencing as a Mystic Knight, right?) and even at level 1 you're looking at 6D6+ MD in melee combat. Add something like Magical Adrenal Rush (there are a few other spells that add attacks that you could substitute) and Intuitive Combat (Psi-power) and you can be death on two feet. Throw in one of the spells that buffs speed (i think the low level sets you to like... 44mph or something?) and you can close the distance nearly instantly.

So.. yeah.

Im not sure what your GM is expecting from a Mystic Knight that ISNT in-your-face.

If he expects you to stand back and blast he both didn't read the fluff, doesn't understand the inherent weaknesses of Mystic style casters, and doesn't understand just how tough a Mystic Knight can be.

_________________
Im loving the Foes list; it's the only thing keeping me from tearing out my eyes from the dumb.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:23 am
  

User avatar
Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:01 pm
Posts: 233
Location: South-East of Arzno
Comment: For the White Rose!!!
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
HarleeKnight wrote:
Because, apparently, my new group thinks of tanks differently than I do, would my Mystic Knight of the White Rose, who is immune to energy weapons damage and wears TW Regenerating Infiltration Armor with 100 MDC along with a Talisman of Armor with 100 MDC 3 times a day, be considered a tank or a caster?
I consider him a tank because his spells are rather limited and the GM thinks I am using him incorrectly. He doesn't think I should be wading into battle screaming, "You want me, well here I am, sweetheart!" Then killing the bad guys with my Xiti TK-Rifle. He thinks I'm just asking to get dead when I do that.


Your GM might want to actually read the description of Mystic Knights.

They prefer to use Melee Weapons, ffs. They are VERY MUCH in-your-face warriors, as described.

Mystics make poor spellcasters anyway. In addition to a dearth of spells (being unable to learn whatever you want whenever you want is a massive handicap), they have limited PPE compared to other spellcasters (and because they cant learn any spell at any time, have ZERO access to the spells that ameliorate this problem like Energy Sphere or Talisman until they are absurdly high level), dont get good bonuses to spell strength, MUST be high level to use high level spells (which hugely limits their power)...

Theyre weak casters.

Theyre great buffers, great when you need both a mage and psychic in the party, etc.. and Mystic Knights, in particular, are great combatants. They can use their innate Impervious To Energy to great affect coupled with Armor of Ithan and Armor Bizarre (as well as potentially Invulnerability and Energy Field) to get right up in people's faces and carve them into bits. They can spend their limited PPE on buff spells that will last a lot longer and lead to a lot more kills than casting a few offensive spells would.

And the White Rose Knights are even better - they have access to some TW Melee weapons the "regular" Mystic Knights dont that are absolutely amazing.

The one that creates a blade that does your Energy Blast Damage + 2D6 is nuts. Add fencing to that (you did take Fencing as a Mystic Knight, right?) and even at level 1 you're looking at 6D6+ MD in melee combat. Add something like Magical Adrenal Rush (there are a few other spells that add attacks that you could substitute) and Intuitive Combat (Psi-power) and you can be death on two feet. Throw in one of the spells that buffs speed (i think the low level sets you to like... 44mph or something?) and you can close the distance nearly instantly.

So.. yeah.

Im not sure what your GM is expecting from a Mystic Knight that ISNT in-your-face.

If he expects you to stand back and blast he both didn't read the fluff, doesn't understand the inherent weaknesses of Mystic style casters, and doesn't understand just how tough a Mystic Knight can be.


I think he finally got it when I snuck in behind a guy patrolling in a Samson and carved him up with my Battle Fury Blade. I nearly took out his head in the first attack. Took out his rail gun in the next 2 double attacks then took out a leg in the next 2. His buddy showed up and shot me, no damage to me thanks to my force field. The Samson was on the ground by now so I finished off his helmet. Then I killed him by taking his head. He was trying to shoot me through out all this and so was his buddy but they didn't realize that once their attacks took out my force field their attacks were having no actual effect on me. His buddy ran before I could get him too.
The GM's jaw was on the ground. He has a new found appreciation for MKs and people who know how to use them. Apparently, he had never had anyone use one properly before. My only response to him was, "I am no Jedi."

_________________
There are two kinds of people in this world... 1: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:01 am
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 5
HarleeKnight wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
HarleeKnight wrote:
Because, apparently, my new group thinks of tanks differently than I do, would my Mystic Knight of the White Rose, who is immune to energy weapons damage and wears TW Regenerating Infiltration Armor with 100 MDC along with a Talisman of Armor with 100 MDC 3 times a day, be considered a tank or a caster?
I consider him a tank because his spells are rather limited and the GM thinks I am using him incorrectly. He doesn't think I should be wading into battle screaming, "You want me, well here I am, sweetheart!" Then killing the bad guys with my Xiti TK-Rifle. He thinks I'm just asking to get dead when I do that.


Your GM might want to actually read the description of Mystic Knights.

They prefer to use Melee Weapons, ffs. They are VERY MUCH in-your-face warriors, as described.

Mystics make poor spellcasters anyway. In addition to a dearth of spells (being unable to learn whatever you want whenever you want is a massive handicap), they have limited PPE compared to other spellcasters (and because they cant learn any spell at any time, have ZERO access to the spells that ameliorate this problem like Energy Sphere or Talisman until they are absurdly high level), dont get good bonuses to spell strength, MUST be high level to use high level spells (which hugely limits their power)...

Theyre weak casters.

Theyre great buffers, great when you need both a mage and psychic in the party, etc.. and Mystic Knights, in particular, are great combatants. They can use their innate Impervious To Energy to great affect coupled with Armor of Ithan and Armor Bizarre (as well as potentially Invulnerability and Energy Field) to get right up in people's faces and carve them into bits. They can spend their limited PPE on buff spells that will last a lot longer and lead to a lot more kills than casting a few offensive spells would.

And the White Rose Knights are even better - they have access to some TW Melee weapons the "regular" Mystic Knights dont that are absolutely amazing.

The one that creates a blade that does your Energy Blast Damage + 2D6 is nuts. Add fencing to that (you did take Fencing as a Mystic Knight, right?) and even at level 1 you're looking at 6D6+ MD in melee combat. Add something like Magical Adrenal Rush (there are a few other spells that add attacks that you could substitute) and Intuitive Combat (Psi-power) and you can be death on two feet. Throw in one of the spells that buffs speed (i think the low level sets you to like... 44mph or something?) and you can close the distance nearly instantly.

So.. yeah.

Im not sure what your GM is expecting from a Mystic Knight that ISNT in-your-face.

If he expects you to stand back and blast he both didn't read the fluff, doesn't understand the inherent weaknesses of Mystic style casters, and doesn't understand just how tough a Mystic Knight can be.


I think he finally got it when I snuck in behind a guy patrolling in a Samson and carved him up with my Battle Fury Blade. I nearly took out his head in the first attack. Took out his rail gun in the next 2 double attacks then took out a leg in the next 2. His buddy showed up and shot me, no damage to me thanks to my force field. The Samson was on the ground by now so I finished off his helmet.
Then I killed him by taking his head.


=)

This actually isn't possible in the Samson (your GM probably didn't realize this). The pilot's head is not in the head of the Samson. Like the Ulti-max, the pilot sits in the chest and operates the legs and arms with controls. Might wish to remind your GM of this in the future. Its still an effective tactic as it removes his sensors for the most part (there are cameras in the chest so he can still "see").

Quote:
He was trying to shoot me through out all this and so was his buddy but they didn't realize that once their attacks took out my force field their attacks were having no actual effect on me. His buddy ran before I could get him too.


If they were energy attacks, the Mystic Knight's Impervious To Energy ability should have protected an Armor of Ithan or similar protective spell. AFAIK, there is no ruling stating that Impervious To Energy/(Pick your Attack type, like Fire, etc) doesn't protect your possessions/armor/protections. There ARE, however, a few items or spell that specifically mention that they (those specific items) do NOT protect anything but the caster, so if the exception is what is noted, the default is that your Impervious to Energy ability protects anything that could be considered "on you". It wouldn't extend to an Energy Field (which is a dome several feet distant from you) but anything that is "on you", like Armor of Ithan (which is a suit of body armor), should be protected.

Now, if it was a Rail Gun, then of course it would damage your Armor of Ithan and what have you.

Quote:
The GM's jaw was on the ground. He has a new found appreciation for MKs and people who know how to use them. Apparently, he had never had anyone use one properly before. My only response to him was, "I am no Jedi."


I might take something of an exception to a Mystic Knight of the White Rose being quite so bloodthirsty as the GM - not that i'd make you change your behaviour, but you might see Alignment hits and if word of your actions got back to the Order you might be facing some disciplinary actions from them.

White Rose Knights are supposed to be a lot like Cyber Knights. Once a guy is down and out of the fight, you should probably have left him be. Now, if he was still trying to kill you? Fair game. But if he was helpless/couldn't fight back, if you're playing a good-aligned character, you probably shouldn't execute him. Just my opinion, there, YMMV. I dont, when Im GMing, tell people "you cant act that way because your X alignment", i just shift their alignment according to their actions. Other GMs do it differently, i'm sure.

Of course, the fact that you have what is probably the most broken melee weapon in the entire game doesn't hurt. Battle Fury Blades are absolutely redic.

Its unfortunate that Mystic Knights are capped at level 6 spells (other than the ones they get at level 1 which are higher), otherwise, you could make use of the Combat Magic spell Fighting Spirit, which temporarily grants extra attacks, strike bonuses, extended crit range (18-20), and Paired Weapons. Unfortunately, its level 7.

Oh, also remember that as a Mystic Knight, you also get 2 Super Psionic Powers (at 4 and 9) - you can take the Psionic ability that gives you MDC armor (Psychic Body Field?) and Psi-Sword.

Psi-sword in the hands of a Mystic Knight can be extremely potent. You can use Power Weapon on it, for instance.

_________________
Im loving the Foes list; it's the only thing keeping me from tearing out my eyes from the dumb.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:25 am
  

User avatar
Adventurer

Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:00 pm
Posts: 555
Location: a west coast
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
The pilot's head is not in the head of the Samson. Like the Ulti-max, the pilot sits in the chest and operates the legs and arms with controls. Might wish to remind your GM of this in the future. Its still an effective tactic as it removes his sensors for the most part (there are cameras in the chest so he can still "see").


Are.....are you sure? i checked the rifts core book and the old NG samson only has all of five inches on the glitter boy, and the glitter boy is an awfully snug fit. unless it's a very fat suit i'm not sure i believe that.

_________________
Looking for some inexpensive weapons? Try chipwell's weapons lineup!


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:14 am
  

User avatar
Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:01 pm
Posts: 233
Location: South-East of Arzno
Comment: For the White Rose!!!
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
HarleeKnight wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
HarleeKnight wrote:
Because, apparently, my new group thinks of tanks differently than I do, would my Mystic Knight of the White Rose, who is immune to energy weapons damage and wears TW Regenerating Infiltration Armor with 100 MDC along with a Talisman of Armor with 100 MDC 3 times a day, be considered a tank or a caster?
I consider him a tank because his spells are rather limited and the GM thinks I am using him incorrectly. He doesn't think I should be wading into battle screaming, "You want me, well here I am, sweetheart!" Then killing the bad guys with my Xiti TK-Rifle. He thinks I'm just asking to get dead when I do that.


Your GM might want to actually read the description of Mystic Knights.

They prefer to use Melee Weapons, ffs. They are VERY MUCH in-your-face warriors, as described.

Mystics make poor spellcasters anyway. In addition to a dearth of spells (being unable to learn whatever you want whenever you want is a massive handicap), they have limited PPE compared to other spellcasters (and because they cant learn any spell at any time, have ZERO access to the spells that ameliorate this problem like Energy Sphere or Talisman until they are absurdly high level), dont get good bonuses to spell strength, MUST be high level to use high level spells (which hugely limits their power)...

Theyre weak casters.

Theyre great buffers, great when you need both a mage and psychic in the party, etc.. and Mystic Knights, in particular, are great combatants. They can use their innate Impervious To Energy to great affect coupled with Armor of Ithan and Armor Bizarre (as well as potentially Invulnerability and Energy Field) to get right up in people's faces and carve them into bits. They can spend their limited PPE on buff spells that will last a lot longer and lead to a lot more kills than casting a few offensive spells would.

And the White Rose Knights are even better - they have access to some TW Melee weapons the "regular" Mystic Knights dont that are absolutely amazing.

The one that creates a blade that does your Energy Blast Damage + 2D6 is nuts. Add fencing to that (you did take Fencing as a Mystic Knight, right?) and even at level 1 you're looking at 6D6+ MD in melee combat. Add something like Magical Adrenal Rush (there are a few other spells that add attacks that you could substitute) and Intuitive Combat (Psi-power) and you can be death on two feet. Throw in one of the spells that buffs speed (i think the low level sets you to like... 44mph or something?) and you can close the distance nearly instantly.

So.. yeah.

Im not sure what your GM is expecting from a Mystic Knight that ISNT in-your-face.

If he expects you to stand back and blast he both didn't read the fluff, doesn't understand the inherent weaknesses of Mystic style casters, and doesn't understand just how tough a Mystic Knight can be.


I think he finally got it when I snuck in behind a guy patrolling in a Samson and carved him up with my Battle Fury Blade. I nearly took out his head in the first attack. Took out his rail gun in the next 2 double attacks then took out a leg in the next 2. His buddy showed up and shot me, no damage to me thanks to my force field. The Samson was on the ground by now so I finished off his helmet.
Then I killed him by taking his head.


=)

This actually isn't possible in the Samson (your GM probably didn't realize this). The pilot's head is not in the head of the Samson. Like the Ulti-max, the pilot sits in the chest and operates the legs and arms with controls. Might wish to remind your GM of this in the future. Its still an effective tactic as it removes his sensors for the most part (there are cameras in the chest so he can still "see").

Quote:
He was trying to shoot me through out all this and so was his buddy but they didn't realize that once their attacks took out my force field their attacks were having no actual effect on me. His buddy ran before I could get him too.


If they were energy attacks, the Mystic Knight's Impervious To Energy ability should have protected an Armor of Ithan or similar protective spell. AFAIK, there is no ruling stating that Impervious To Energy/(Pick your Attack type, like Fire, etc) doesn't protect your possessions/armor/protections. There ARE, however, a few items or spell that specifically mention that they (those specific items) do NOT protect anything but the caster, so if the exception is what is noted, the default is that your Impervious to Energy ability protects anything that could be considered "on you". It wouldn't extend to an Energy Field (which is a dome several feet distant from you) but anything that is "on you", like Armor of Ithan (which is a suit of body armor), should be protected.

Now, if it was a Rail Gun, then of course it would damage your Armor of Ithan and what have you.

Quote:
The GM's jaw was on the ground. He has a new found appreciation for MKs and people who know how to use them. Apparently, he had never had anyone use one properly before. My only response to him was, "I am no Jedi."


I might take something of an exception to a Mystic Knight of the White Rose being quite so bloodthirsty as the GM - not that i'd make you change your behaviour, but you might see Alignment hits and if word of your actions got back to the Order you might be facing some disciplinary actions from them.

White Rose Knights are supposed to be a lot like Cyber Knights. Once a guy is down and out of the fight, you should probably have left him be. Now, if he was still trying to kill you? Fair game. But if he was helpless/couldn't fight back, if you're playing a good-aligned character, you probably shouldn't execute him. Just my opinion, there, YMMV. I dont, when Im GMing, tell people "you cant act that way because your X alignment", i just shift their alignment according to their actions. Other GMs do it differently, i'm sure.

Of course, the fact that you have what is probably the most broken melee weapon in the entire game doesn't hurt. Battle Fury Blades are absolutely redic.

Its unfortunate that Mystic Knights are capped at level 6 spells (other than the ones they get at level 1 which are higher), otherwise, you could make use of the Combat Magic spell Fighting Spirit, which temporarily grants extra attacks, strike bonuses, extended crit range (18-20), and Paired Weapons. Unfortunately, its level 7.

Oh, also remember that as a Mystic Knight, you also get 2 Super Psionic Powers (at 4 and 9) - you can take the Psionic ability that gives you MDC armor (Psychic Body Field?) and Psi-Sword.

Psi-sword in the hands of a Mystic Knight can be extremely potent. You can use Power Weapon on it, for instance.


Since there is no rule on it, one way or the other, I just always thought that the Impervious to Energy Weapons ability protects my armor and any worn force field I might use, but the force field provided by the Battle Fury Sword is on the outside of that ability. I use it as a kind of ruse where they can see it being hit and taking damage, then when it goes down, they're like "huh???!? Why isn't he taking damage now?"
That thing about the Samson's head, the description of the original isn't really clear. I'll have to look into it more and discuss it with my GM.

_________________
There are two kinds of people in this world... 1: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:50 am
  

User avatar
Monk

Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 7:22 pm
Posts: 15801
Location: 2nd Degree Black Belt of Post Fu
Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
If that is the logic, then why would the force feild provided by the battle Fury blade be "outside" of Impervious to Energy while the Armor of Ithan is on the "inside"? I mean I can see an argument saying it does cover armor and force feilds, or that it does not, I'm not sure why you would read it as being selective though and only covering *some* force feilds.

_________________
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:33 pm
  

User avatar
Megaversal® Ambassador

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:23 am
Posts: 2443
Location: Houston, TX
Comment: "I will not be silenced. I will not submit. I will find the truth and shout it to the world. "
Curbludgeon wrote:
I've gone through most everything looking for Lore skills.
Spoiler:
Lore:Aborigines/American Indians/Astral Plane/Cattle&Animals/Chinese Classical Studies/Chinese Mythology:Taoist/Chinese Mythology:Buddhist/D-Bees/Demons&Monsters/Dimensions/Dinosaurs/Dreamtime Culture/Faeries&Creatures of Magic/Geomancy&Ley Lines(Feng Shui)/History of Russia/Japanese Mythology/Juicers/Knowledge of Magic (for military applications)/Magic/Military History*/Mythology**/Psychics&Psionics/Religion/Rifts China(for those not in China)/Sea Creatures/Splugorth*/Swamp&Everglades/The Cities/Vampires/Voodoo*/Western(for those in China)

Dimension Books add: Lore: Wormwood/Galactic&Alien/Hades
PFRPG adds: Lore: Culture&Customs:General or specific domain of Man/Undead/Witch/Zodiac
Nightbane adds: Lore: Astral/Dreamstream/Factions/Nightbane/Nightlands
BTS adds:Lore: Aliens&UFOlogy/Cults&Secret Societies/Entities&Ghosts/Magic:Arcane/Superstitions, Streetwise:Weird
Splicers adds: Machine Lore

And there are some Lore-adjacent skills like Anthropology/Archaeology/History/Law/Research

*=(listed 1/each only in NPC stat blocks)
**=I know RUE has doesn't list it as a Lore skill, but multiple other sources do.
Obviously not all of those would see use in one game, and many are effectively regional equivalents of each other. Even trimming out the one-offs and skills from regions that might never see play like China/Australia/other dimensions, there still are quite a lot to juggle.

While it's similarly obvious that the Lore/History needs of a party can be divided among members, I kinda want to spitball a Lorekeeper build or two.
A couple of fun things I dug up:
Non-Combat Robots from Sourcebook 1 can have up to 6 Lores each, while also snagging a Law and History.
The Lord Magus and Layer of Laws (Mystic Russia) OCCs are shown having All Lores as OCC skills. That clearly means 5 or so, and not everything from above, but YMMV.
The Durosk from DB5 can be a scientist or scholar OCC with an additional 2 Lores and several languages.

All that said, I half want to write up a HU character that's a mix between a Natural Genius and an Immortal, with Total Recall and the Bookworm minor ability.

Great list, I recently went through all the books for languages and lores and I was pleased to see that I had all the ones you listed. I think two skills from BTS that should be incorporated into any game with the supernatural, including Heroes Unlimited if you are using magic as a main part or doing Armageddon Unlimited is Lore Magic Arcane and especially streetwise weird. It adds a lot to the game but then I love to add lore and history skills to a game.

One thing that all of this misses is Research. My original players and I created a research skill back with RMB so we where happy to see it added to later games but we lack a mechanic for it. How long does it take to research something and how complete is the information it gives you? This is all something you have to make up on your own. You also have to factory in the skill value of libraries if you go full Buffy.

_________________
Northern Gun Chief of Robotics
Designer of NG-X40 Storm Hammer Power Armor & NG-HC1000 Dragonfly Hover Chopper
Big game hunter, explorer extra ordinaire and expert on the Aegis Buffalo
Ultimate Insider for WB 32: Lemuria, WB 33: Northern Gun 1, WB 34: Northern Gun 2
Showdown Backer Robotech RPG Tactics
Benefactor Insider Rifts Bestiary: Vol 1, Rifts Bestiary: Vol 2


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:33 pm
  

User avatar
Demon Lord Extraordinaire

Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 3:28 pm
Posts: 6529
Location: Apocrypha
Comment: You probably think this comment is about you, don't you?
Orin J. wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
The pilot's head is not in the head of the Samson. Like the Ulti-max, the pilot sits in the chest and operates the legs and arms with controls. Might wish to remind your GM of this in the future. Its still an effective tactic as it removes his sensors for the most part (there are cameras in the chest so he can still "see").


Are.....are you sure? i checked the rifts core book and the old NG samson only has all of five inches on the glitter boy, and the glitter boy is an awfully snug fit. unless it's a very fat suit i'm not sure i believe that.


The NG2 book mentions this with the new version of the Samson. It doesn't say anything one way or the other about the original version, however in all likelihood it too has the pilot sitting inside instead of wearing it like a suit.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:03 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 5
The Beast wrote:
Orin J. wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
The pilot's head is not in the head of the Samson. Like the Ulti-max, the pilot sits in the chest and operates the legs and arms with controls. Might wish to remind your GM of this in the future. Its still an effective tactic as it removes his sensors for the most part (there are cameras in the chest so he can still "see").


Are.....are you sure? i checked the rifts core book and the old NG samson only has all of five inches on the glitter boy, and the glitter boy is an awfully snug fit. unless it's a very fat suit i'm not sure i believe that.


The NG2 book mentions this with the new version of the Samson. It doesn't say anything one way or the other about the original version, however in all likelihood it too has the pilot sitting inside instead of wearing it like a suit.


The "new version" is not a new version that is laid out differently; its just got more armor. It is otherwise identical (and you cant even tell the difference from looking at that). It's just a new manufacturing block.

Its not like the Hunter Mobile Gun, where the new one is an entirely new bot called the "v2".

NG2 wrote:
As Northern Gun's first and signature Power Armor, the Samson is a hybrid between power armor and combat robot. The pilot, for example, does not actually wear the armor so much as he fits inside it more like a robot. The pilot's head is inside the chest. The arms and hands are manipulated by the movement of the pilots arms and hands, but they do not fit inside the oversized arms and fingers of the the Samson. <portion abridged> All visuals, for example, come from concealed cameras in the chest and the head (behind the visor of what appears to be the eye slits in the helmet). In fact, the entire head is the central sensor cluster for the Samson.


I know there was an earlier reference to the fact that the Samson was not directly-piloted like regular Power Armor, but i cannot remember where it was. IIRC, it was in the description of another power armor, where it basically said "Like the Samson, this armor has the pilot in the chest.." or something similar. I only say this because i remember knowing for sure that this was the case well before NG2 released.

_________________
Im loving the Foes list; it's the only thing keeping me from tearing out my eyes from the dumb.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:06 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 5
HarleeKnight wrote:
That thing about the Samson's head, the description of the original isn't really clear. I'll have to look into it more and discuss it with my GM.


Just to be clear, i wasn't saying you were doing something wrong. Most people probably dont realize it, is all. You'd already pretty well "killed" the thing anyway.

_________________
Im loving the Foes list; it's the only thing keeping me from tearing out my eyes from the dumb.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:17 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 5
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
If that is the logic, then why would the force feild provided by the battle Fury blade be "outside" of Impervious to Energy while the Armor of Ithan is on the "inside"? I mean I can see an argument saying it does cover armor and force feilds, or that it does not, I'm not sure why you would read it as being selective though and only covering *some* force feilds.


Even though im the one who made the "it should cover your armor/protections" statement...

I can also kind of see where's going, and could even agree with a deliniation between "armor" and "force fields".

Armor of Ithan, Armor Bizzare, Invincible Armor, say they provide "armor"; so i could see a ruling (that makes logical sense) saying that something like Impervious To (Insert Thing Here) provides its protection to your armor (whatever the source of that armor), but does not protect a force field (which isn't as close to your body, presumably).

For simplicities sake, i wouldn't personally make that ruling, but it is logically consistent.

However, the Battle Fury Blade says they "encased in a suit of magical force", which would lead me to rule that even if Force Fields weren't covered by your protections, this ability IS, as it reads like a suit of armor. This tracks, since Invincible Armor is one of the spells used to create the item.

Remember, though it is often tossed around like it is a Force Field, Armor of Ithan is not. Its a suit of magic armor.

_________________
Im loving the Foes list; it's the only thing keeping me from tearing out my eyes from the dumb.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:20 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 5908
Location: Clone Lab 27
Hybrid TW DAT-(Tanker)
Fills all the roles you need filled.
Medic/cash cow/tank/fighter.


If the force field is based off invulnerability then it would be the source of impervious to energy.

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:33 pm
  

User avatar
Adventurer

Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:00 pm
Posts: 555
Location: a west coast
The Beast wrote:
Orin J. wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
The pilot's head is not in the head of the Samson. Like the Ulti-max, the pilot sits in the chest and operates the legs and arms with controls. Might wish to remind your GM of this in the future. Its still an effective tactic as it removes his sensors for the most part (there are cameras in the chest so he can still "see").


Are.....are you sure? i checked the rifts core book and the old NG samson only has all of five inches on the glitter boy, and the glitter boy is an awfully snug fit. unless it's a very fat suit i'm not sure i believe that.


The NG2 book mentions this with the new version of the Samson. It doesn't say anything one way or the other about the original version, however in all likelihood it too has the pilot sitting inside instead of wearing it like a suit.


given the statistics of the suit itself i'm gonna assume tetsuya has a case of the head fuzzies on that one. the samson is in the rulebook as power armor, is much too small and lightweight compared to the ulti-max and the art is very much too human-shaped for that.

_________________
Looking for some inexpensive weapons? Try chipwell's weapons lineup!


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:49 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 5
Orin J. wrote:
The Beast wrote:
Orin J. wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
The pilot's head is not in the head of the Samson. Like the Ulti-max, the pilot sits in the chest and operates the legs and arms with controls. Might wish to remind your GM of this in the future. Its still an effective tactic as it removes his sensors for the most part (there are cameras in the chest so he can still "see").


Are.....are you sure? i checked the rifts core book and the old NG samson only has all of five inches on the glitter boy, and the glitter boy is an awfully snug fit. unless it's a very fat suit i'm not sure i believe that.


The NG2 book mentions this with the new version of the Samson. It doesn't say anything one way or the other about the original version, however in all likelihood it too has the pilot sitting inside instead of wearing it like a suit.


given the statistics of the suit itself i'm gonna assume tetsuya has a case of the head fuzzies on that one. the samson is in the rulebook as power armor, is much too small and lightweight compared to the ulti-max and the art is very much too human-shaped for that.


Its almost 12 feet tall. No matter what, the pilot does not wear it like a suit of armor..

But i literally quoted the part of NG2 that discusses it. The pilot's head is in the chest. His feet stop before the knees. The arms are entirely operated from inside the chest.

So im not sure what you're on about. It is 100% clear.

Also, the Terror Trooper is the same (pilot sits in the chest area) and is only a tiny bit larger than the Samson. How humanoid it is doesn't matter.

Here, ill repost it just for ease of reading:

NG2 wrote:
As Northern Gun's first and signature Power Armor, the Samson is a hybrid between power armor and combat robot. The pilot, for example, does not actually wear the armor so much as he fits inside it more like a robot. The pilot's head is inside the chest. The arms and hands are manipulated by the movement of the pilots arms and hands, but they do not fit inside the oversized arms and fingers of the the Samson. <portion abridged> All visuals, for example, come from concealed cameras in the chest and the head (behind the visor of what appears to be the eye slits in the helmet). In fact, the entire head is the central sensor cluster for the Samson.

_________________
Im loving the Foes list; it's the only thing keeping me from tearing out my eyes from the dumb.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:54 pm
  

User avatar
Adventurer

Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:00 pm
Posts: 555
Location: a west coast
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Orin J. wrote:
The Beast wrote:
Orin J. wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
The pilot's head is not in the head of the Samson. Like the Ulti-max, the pilot sits in the chest and operates the legs and arms with controls. Might wish to remind your GM of this in the future. Its still an effective tactic as it removes his sensors for the most part (there are cameras in the chest so he can still "see").


Are.....are you sure? i checked the rifts core book and the old NG samson only has all of five inches on the glitter boy, and the glitter boy is an awfully snug fit. unless it's a very fat suit i'm not sure i believe that.


The NG2 book mentions this with the new version of the Samson. It doesn't say anything one way or the other about the original version, however in all likelihood it too has the pilot sitting inside instead of wearing it like a suit.


given the statistics of the suit itself i'm gonna assume tetsuya has a case of the head fuzzies on that one. the samson is in the rulebook as power armor, is much too small and lightweight compared to the ulti-max and the art is very much too human-shaped for that.


Its almost 12 feet tall. No matter what, the pilot does not wear it like a suit of armor..

But i literally quoted the part of NG2 that discusses it. The pilot's head is in the chest. His feet stop before the knees. The arms are entirely operated from inside the chest.

So im not sure what you're on about. It is 100% clear.

Also, the Terror Trooper is the same (pilot sits in the chest area) and is only a tiny bit larger than the Samson. How humanoid it is doesn't matter.

Here, ill repost it just for ease of reading:

NG2 wrote:
As Northern Gun's first and signature Power Armor, the Samson is a hybrid between power armor and combat robot. The pilot, for example, does not actually wear the armor so much as he fits inside it more like a robot. The pilot's head is inside the chest. The arms and hands are manipulated by the movement of the pilots arms and hands, but they do not fit inside the oversized arms and fingers of the the Samson. <portion abridged> All visuals, for example, come from concealed cameras in the chest and the head (behind the visor of what appears to be the eye slits in the helmet). In fact, the entire head is the central sensor cluster for the Samson.



so like the glitterboy, and not the ulti-max.

_________________
Looking for some inexpensive weapons? Try chipwell's weapons lineup!


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:15 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 5
No, because the Glitter Boys arms DO contain the pilots arms (and the head is inside the helmet/head of the PA). Thats why they are so stubby compared to its body (of you look at the illustration, they arent in “proper” proportion to the torso/legs). Also, NG makes several more “Power Armors” that are built the same way (skimming NG2 atm), and in addition to he Terror Trooper, the Glitter Boy Killer is built the same way (pilot in the chest).

Removed the quoting because the forums were complaining about too much embedding.

_________________
Im loving the Foes list; it's the only thing keeping me from tearing out my eyes from the dumb.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:16 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 5908
Location: Clone Lab 27
Giving the size stats of the GB the pilots arms can not be in the GB arms. (4' wide gb so even if there are 6 inches of shoulder pad on each side it is 2 times wider than the average human. human shoulder width is around 18 inches.) The arms do not look stumpy in any of the major art I have seen. IN some the upper leg looks stumpy and the lower leg extended. (The hands in some art have the GB hands at its knee, while elbow is at the waist.) With the human head inside the helmet the shoulders will not reach the glitter boy shoulders. The GB is called both a robot and power armor. There is art that shows leg inside the GB leg so it could be the stumpy upper leg is because the knees need to line up. Other art the hand comes down to mid thigh. Honestly given the size of the GB it is hard to imagine human limbs in GB limbs off the art of the outside of the GB. (The width and stance shown just seam hard to imagine a normal sized human.)

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:48 pm
  

User avatar
Adventurer

Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:00 pm
Posts: 555
Location: a west coast
Blue_Lion wrote:
Giving the size stats of the GB the pilots arms can not be in the GB arms. (4' wide gb so even if there are 6 inches of shoulder pad on each side it is 2 times wider than the average human. human shoulder width is around 18 inches.) The arms do not look stumpy in any of the major art I have seen. IN some the upper leg looks stumpy and the lower leg extended. (The hands in some art have the GB hands at its knee, while elbow is at the waist.) With the human head inside the helmet the shoulders will not reach the glitter boy shoulders. The GB is called both a robot and power armor. There is art that shows leg inside the GB leg so it could be the stumpy upper leg is because the knees need to line up. Other art the hand comes down to mid thigh. Honestly given the size of the GB it is hard to imagine human limbs in GB limbs off the art of the outside of the GB. (The width and stance shown just seam hard to imagine a normal sized human.)


that's not hard at all, power armors are built around a limited motility harness with enhanced-response feedback rather than "foot pedals". sure it'd take some time to get used to the suit's exaggerated response to your movements but that's why power armor requires training to use properly y'know? you also get better reflexes for less processing cost. i mean that's what i got from the glitterboy design.

_________________
Looking for some inexpensive weapons? Try chipwell's weapons lineup!


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:05 pm
  

User avatar
Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:25 pm
Posts: 261
I always have my players make their character at home, and bring them to the game on the first night. That way they play what they want to play, and I can make the campaign from there.

_________________
You are a truly worthy foe! I shall howl a dirge in your honour and eat your heart with pride!


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best Group Build
Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:07 pm
  

User avatar
Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:25 pm
Posts: 261
Blue_Lion wrote:
Giving the size stats of the GB the pilots arms can not be in the GB arms. (4' wide gb so even if there are 6 inches of shoulder pad on each side it is 2 times wider than the average human. human shoulder width is around 18 inches.) The arms do not look stumpy in any of the major art I have seen. IN some the upper leg looks stumpy and the lower leg extended. (The hands in some art have the GB hands at its knee, while elbow is at the waist.) With the human head inside the helmet the shoulders will not reach the glitter boy shoulders. The GB is called both a robot and power armor. There is art that shows leg inside the GB leg so it could be the stumpy upper leg is because the knees need to line up. Other art the hand comes down to mid thigh. Honestly given the size of the GB it is hard to imagine human limbs in GB limbs off the art of the outside of the GB. (The width and stance shown just seam hard to imagine a normal sized human.)



GB pilots have to be 6'9" or taller. And their hands would be operating controls in the torso.

_________________
You are a truly worthy foe! I shall howl a dirge in your honour and eat your heart with pride!


          Top  
 
 
Post new topic Reply to topic



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users


Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group