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 Post subject: Shifter Summoning
Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:32 am
  

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D-Bee

Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2015 12:16 am
Posts: 42
When using the Shifters Summoning power, do you have to roll anything to locate the creature you want?

For example. If a Shifter wants and Alu Hound Demon or a Gargoyle Lord, do you just go straight to rolling the Battle of Wills, or does a Shifter first have to succeed on a Communication Rift in order to find one?


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 Post subject: Re: Shifter Summoning
Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:23 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
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RUE 123 says "accomplished through the use of a Communication Rift in which the Shifter probes dimensions until he makes contact with a [i]lesser[/b] supernatural being"

So I believe you would expend the usual PPE and make the usual skill rolles from RUE 122.

Keep in mind if a 25% chance isn't impressive for you, you get a +20% to that if you do a ritual. This means instead of 15-60 seconds you will need an additional 25-75 minutes. If you're away from a ley line and need to spend 200 PPE per attempt, this is probably worth it. If you're on (or within half a mile of) a line though, you're probably better off fueling the reduced (100PPE) cost by drawing PPE from the ley line itself.

Keep in mind though that you can only offset 20 PPE worth of cost per spell, and that the 20PPE/melee round drawn from a ley line cannot be used to replenish your own PPE. Instead you have to rely on the boosted recovery rates to replenish your own stores.


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 Post subject: Re: Shifter Summoning
Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:40 pm
  

Palladin

Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:11 pm
Posts: 7110
what makes you think you can only offset 20 PPE from the cost of it?


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 Post subject: Re: Shifter Summoning
Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:34 pm
  

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D-Bee

Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2015 12:16 am
Posts: 42
Yeah, I'm not sure where he is getting that from either. Right now in the game I'm in, I went to a Ley Line, filled up to x3 my PPE max, then started searching for things to summon.

Is there any danger in just rolling at the 20% rate over and over again until I get what I want? Failing a roll shouldn't summon an Alien Intelligence or Greater Demon, right? I can just open one, then close it if I don't get what I want?

Honestly, the Summoning power never really says that you have to roll, but I guess it's implied. I'm just wondering how everyone else does it.


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 Post subject: Re: Shifter Summoning
Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:07 pm
  

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Monk

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Godslayer wrote:
Yeah, I'm not sure where he is getting that from either. Right now in the game I'm in, I went to a Ley Line, filled up to x3 my PPE max, then started searching for things to summon.

Is there any danger in just rolling at the 20% rate over and over again until I get what I want? Failing a roll shouldn't summon an Alien Intelligence or Greater Demon, right? I can just open one, then close it if I don't get what I want?

Honestly, the Summoning power never really says that you have to roll, but I guess it's implied. I'm just wondering how everyone else does it.


There is no penalty to just rolling again and again, no.

_________________
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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 Post subject: Re: Shifter Summoning
Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:31 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:23 pm
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I am now picturing a shifter cold calling numbers in hell until he gets one who will talk to him.


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 Post subject: Re: Shifter Summoning
Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:04 pm
  

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kaid wrote:
I am now picturing a shifter cold calling numbers in hell until he gets one who will talk to him.


The cold calls are what makes it Hell.

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 Post subject: Re: Shifter Summoning
Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:26 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
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Shark_Force wrote:
what makes you think you can only offset 20 PPE from the cost of it?

I might have my wires crossed with the description of how PPE from ley lines words in HU2 (317) and PF2 (181). They too have the 10 PPE / melee but also list separately an increased rate your personal PPE recharges at (10 per half hour)

The obvious implication being that you can't use the 10/melee to recharge your base (because that would make it regenerating at 10/30min pointless) which is supported by the end of the 1st paragraph in both books:


    Men of magic can syphon a fragment of the energy from these lines, especially during certain periods and positions of the moon and stars.
    The additional magic energy is often only accessible directly at a ley line nexus and must be used while it is available
    The PPE cannot be saved and used later.


I think the intent is that this is how it works in RUE too, however it appears to have been ommitted, much like I can't seem to find the increases to duration/damage/range at ley lines in RUE anymore either, least not on pg 186.

Perhaps I'm just looking in the wrong spot. But if we can't find the range/duration/damage increases for ley lines, would that mean they don't apply anymore because RUE didn't reprint them?

If we want multipliers for RUE, if we are open to borrowing HU/PF rules to do so, then that should also be a basis for borrowing that restriction (along with the heightened 'own reserve' rates which seem to be absent in RUE)

Godslayer wrote:
Is there any danger in just rolling at the 20% rate over and over again until I get what I want?

You're going to have to open a new communication rift every time, that's going to cost you a lot of PPE to brute force, but go crazy.

Godslayer wrote:
Failing a roll shouldn't summon an Alien Intelligence or Greater Demon, right? I can just open one, then close it if I don't get what I want?

That's up to the GM. If you fail within 20% you do contact the correct dimension/world/continent but the wrong location within it, so if you had intended to contact some non-dangerous lesson demon you might well open up to a greater one instead.

On the other hand, you might just open it to an empty plain. Unless "not the right person" implies you always connect to a person in that case? I could see that, in which case it would always be more interesting, even if that 'other person' just happens to be some different lesser demon, or maybe a sub-demon, or a slave living in Hades.

Godslayer wrote:
Honestly, the Summoning power never really says that you have to roll, but I guess it's implied. I'm just wondering how everyone else does it.

The Summoning power says you need to open a communication rift and that power does always require you to roll.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
There is no penalty to just rolling again and again, no.

Actually, besides the PPE cost racking up and perhaps always contacting an undesired person (perhaps implied) we of course know that any time a Shifter opens a rift with intent to summon (successful or not) that a few Poltergeists will slip through. Brute-forcing until you pass your % means a lot of poltergeists up to hijinx like stealing your talismans, sucking up your PPE, etc.

A shifter could of course avoid that by setting up a protection circle before they open the rift, if they happen to know it. It's not one of the start spells though. Among those, Energy Field could probably keep them back (put it around yourself or the rift) and it's half the price of Constrain Being.

kaid wrote:
I am now picturing a shifter cold calling numbers in hell until he gets one who will talk to him.

The good news is if you fail by 20 or less, you might still find a new candidate willing to serve you, even if it'sn ot the one you intended.


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 Post subject: Re: Shifter Summoning
Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:08 pm
  

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Monk

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Axelmania wrote:
Actually, besides the PPE cost racking up and perhaps always contacting an undesired person (perhaps implied) we of course know that any time a Shifter opens a rift with intent to summon (successful or not) that a few Poltergeists will slip through. Brute-forcing until you pass your % means a lot of poltergeists up to hijinx like stealing your talismans, sucking up your PPE, etc.

A shifter could of course avoid that by setting up a protection circle before they open the rift, if they happen to know it. It's not one of the start spells though. Among those, Energy Field could probably keep them back (put it around yourself or the rift) and it's half the price of Constrain Being.


No we don't know that anytime a shifter opens a rift to summon it lets a few Poltergeists through.

For one, it's not in the limitations of either Summoning or Communication Rifts

For two, that slip was in the Dimensional Portal spell to open a Rift, not any other.

For three, that ruling is outdated and not even canon anymore. It's not in their spell as of RUE, the line about Poltergeists always coming through has been changed.

It now reads "One of the real dangers of using this spell is that some "Thing" unwanted often slips through.

So lets break that down.

1: Poltergeists no longer slip through anytime a dimensional portal is opened, "Often" is not "Always"

2: It's no longer limited to Poltergeists, but can be littearlly anything the GM wants

3: It specifies it only applys to Dimensional Portal and no other spells.

This is part of why I've been amused by your repeated assertations that Poltergeists always come through and trying to expand it as a major feature of the setting. it's no longer even canon that it happens with dimensional portal, let alone communication rifts.

_________________
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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 Post subject: Re: Shifter Summoning
Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:52 am
  

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Knight

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Posts: 5196
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
No we don't know that anytime a shifter opens a rift to summon it lets a few Poltergeists through.

For one, it's not in the limitations of either Summoning or Communication Rifts

For two, that slip was in the Dimensional Portal spell to open a Rift, not any other.

Dark Conversions 77 says "They also sneak in whenever a Shifter/Summoner summons lesser or greater supernatural forces" so I suppose you could argue it's only absolutely guaranteed upon a successful summon, and not when a Communication Rift is opened but nobody comes through.

DC77's "almost every time a dimensional portal is opened" never specifies that it has to be a DP opened by spell or ritual. RUE 193 uses DP to refer to random rifts, and the spell itself pretty much uses the term interchangeably with rifts.

121 for example under "3. Dimension Sense" on the 2nd paragraph of right column "when reading a dimensional portal, a Shifter will get a sense if the Rift will soon close, if it was opened deliberately or is a random occurance". Are you thinking this doesn't also refer to Micro-Rifts?

You'll see on 122 that "4. Dimensional Travel" is described as a "one-way dimensional portal". There are simply many incarnations of what this term refers to besides the 15th level incantation.

If you check the 2nd paragraph of the right column of RUE 123, the Communication Rift is described as a "tiny portal".

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
For three, that ruling is outdated and not even canon anymore. It's not in their spell as of RUE, the line about Poltergeists always coming through has been changed.

The change to Poltergeists from RCB>DC was simply the addition of "almost" prior to "every time". We can quibble about how to interpret that but I think we can probably reach a consensus that it's somewhere between 51% and 99% of the time.

"also sneak in whenever" still applies, to summonings though, it wasn't changed to "nearly whenever" or anything like that.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
It now reads "One of the real dangers of using this spell is that some "Thing" unwanted often slips through.

"Almost every time" sounds like it fulfills "often" to me. Not seeing a problem.

The change of "always" (RMB190) to "often" actually happened first on pg 152 of Book of Magic in 2001, prior to Dark Conversions. So the amendments to the Poltergeist description were likely written after that change to the 15th level incantation.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
1: Poltergeists no longer slip through anytime a dimensional portal is opened, "Often" is not "Always"

I didn't say it happened anytime a portal was opened: rather when a portal is opened with intent to summon, but I'll dial it back to "when a summon successfully happens".

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
2: It's no longer limited to Poltergeists, but can be littearlly anything the GM wants

It's never been limited to poltergeists, they've just been the prime example who've explicitly been called out.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
3: It specifies it only applys to Dimensional Portal and no other spells.

That has never been specified, and your capitalizing the term is misleading since the poltergeist description does not, while it does take care to capitalize "Poltergeist" and "Rift" and "Summoner/Shifter". You'll also see that preceding their Alignment that the names of various spells and powers useful against them are all capitalized. So there is no basis to assume this only applies to the 15th level spell, and not to dimensional portals in general, such as the 1-way portals created by Shifters, or their communication rifts.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
This is part of why I've been amused by your repeated assertations that Poltergeists always come through and trying to expand it as a major feature of the setting. it's no longer even canon that it happens with dimensional portal, let alone communication rifts.

I stopped asserting they ALWAYS come through ever since I noticed the change in Dark Conversions (I think sometime last year?), now I believe I only assert that they sneak in "almost every time", so there's an occasional time when they don't when a portal is opened and nothing comes through it.

BUT: whenever supernatural forces (lesser or greater) are summoned, they "also sneak in whenever" so that's is still very much ALWAYS. However, if a Shifter doesn't actually bring someone over, we're back to the previous "almost every time" I suppose.

One thing I did notice that will limit concerns about communication rifts however. I notice it says "unless opened on a nexus point, it is no larger than a grapefruit".

Since poltergeists are "about the size of a soccer ball", that sounds larger than a grapefruit, which apparently usually range in diameter from 3.9–5.9 in. Apparently standard diameter of soccer ball is 8.65 inches. Of course the world's biggest grapefruit was 29 inches in circumference which works out to a radius of 4.61549 and a diameter of 9.23098 which would be enough to allow standard soccer balls through...

This is assuming that the size actually matters, of course. Demons are able to dimensional teleport in through communication rifts regardless of size even if they don't naturally have the ability to teleport, so a poltergeist might well also exploit such a feature to get in even if their soccerness is wider than its grapeness.


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 Post subject: Re: Shifter Summoning
Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:12 am
  

Champion

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 1856
Am i missing something... cause reading the RUE Shifter, i dont see ANY comments about things coming through in their writeup anywhere.

Only mention i can find is that extremely vague comment in the absurdly brief description of Dimensional Portal.

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 Post subject: Re: Shifter Summoning
Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:42 am
  

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Monk

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Am i missing something... cause reading the RUE Shifter, i dont see ANY comments about things coming through in their writeup anywhere.

Only mention i can find is that extremely vague comment in the absurdly brief description of Dimensional Portal.


That's all there is. Axelmania continues to insist it's a much bigger deal and applies to more than just Dimensional Portal for reasons that don't really hold water.

_________________
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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 Post subject: Re: Shifter Summoning
Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:03 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
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Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Am i missing something... cause reading the RUE Shifter, i dont see ANY comments about things coming through in their writeup anywhere.

Only mention i can find is that extremely vague comment in the absurdly brief description of Dimensional Portal.

It's written under the description of the Poltergeist. It doesn't need to be reprinted under every possible kind of dimensional portal out there.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Axelmania continues to insist it's a much bigger deal and applies to more than just Dimensional Portal for reasons that don't really hold water.

There is no reason to think that the Poltergeist reference to "dimensional portals" solely refers to the invocation now known as "Dimensional Portal (Rift)"

There are plenty of other invocations (in addition to the 3 different Shifter OCC abilities) which can open dimensional portals. RUE 219 Mystic Portal, RUE 222 Rift Teleportation, possibly BOM 127 D-Step (might split hairs over whether a "rip" is a "rift" I guess), possibly BOM 136 Summon Greater Familiar (the "immediate area" range might imply they get teleported or rifted in, vague description), DEFINITELY Astral Hole on BOM 138 and Bottomless Pit on BOM 139 though.

BOM 142 Re-Open Gateway and Rift to Limbo, BOM 146 Swallowing Rift, BOM 152 Circle of Travel (only when activated, not set up), and BOM 154 Void.

B182 the Secret Nazcan Line Drawing "Open Rift" would also qualify. As should rifts opened intentionally on stone pyramids by stone masters. There's lots of dimensional portals/rifts, the 15th level invocation just happens to have a generic name covering the more expensive 2-way version to any place desired.

There's a spell called "Banish" but that wouldn't mean that any use of "banish" refers to the spell. To assume it must be the spell you really should rely on it being capitalized, and this isn't, even though Poltergeist capitalizes the names of spells elsewhere when it refers to them.

Also note that "whenever a Shifter summons supernatural forces" (except if you argue one falls outside the "lesser" or "greater" designation... perhaps "medium" supernatural forces are excepted?), besides using their OCC ability requiring Communication Rift, would also refer to Shifters using spells like Summon Greater Familiar, Summon Greater Being, Summon Shadow Beast, Summon and Control Entity, possibly even Create Golem (Dark Conversion 109 says a Warlock's "Elemental Golem" is an essence fragment of an AI, that's never ruled out for other golems, though it's not guaranteed to be either)


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 Post subject: Re: Shifter Summoning
Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:50 pm
  

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D-Bee

Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2015 12:16 am
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If the Poltergeists come through the Rifts of a Shifter, then they have to roll to beat his MA 3 out of 5 times or become under his control. It sounds like the way you do it, a Shifter would have a lot of Poltergeists working for him. (Hmm, that gives me a character idea...)


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 Post subject: Re: Shifter Summoning
Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:24 pm
  

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Knight

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No, the way it works is when you open a Communication Rift, you have the option of starting a battle of wills with something on the other side before they come through. If you succeed, you can pull them through (or maybe have them stay and do something on their end) if you fail, they can come through and attack you unless you rapidly close the rift. I don't really know how to resolve that kind of contest though, perhaps roll initiative or some kind of strike (quickly try to teleport) vs dodge (quickly try to close) ?

The battle of wills only begins if the shifter opts to initiate it, and he can only do that if he isn't over his limit. A 1st level shifter could wrangle a pair of poltergeists, but I don't know if you can do BOWs vs accidental entries, I got the impression you need to begin it while they're on the other side and you need to actually target them.

For example: if you open a Communication Rift to Dyval trying to recruit a Devilkin as your minion, but it turns out there is an invisible Pandemonium standing right next to it who sees you and dimensional-teleports right at you, I don't know if you can necessarily begin a Battle of Wills with them when they enter Rifts Earth, since they weren't your planned target and they arrived into your dimension before you could actually start trying to overpower them.

Of course, the invisible Pandemonium invader might qualify for a pact if it attacks you and you beat it and offer to spare it in exchange for a promise of servitude. That's the real key to RPing a shifter to get massive armies IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Shifter Summoning
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:50 pm
  

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Monk

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Axelmania wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Am i missing something... cause reading the RUE Shifter, i dont see ANY comments about things coming through in their writeup anywhere.

Only mention i can find is that extremely vague comment in the absurdly brief description of Dimensional Portal.

It's written under the description of the Poltergeist. It doesn't need to be reprinted under every possible kind of dimensional portal out there.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Axelmania continues to insist it's a much bigger deal and applies to more than just Dimensional Portal for reasons that don't really hold water.

There is no reason to think that the Poltergeist reference to "dimensional portals" solely refers to the invocation now known as "Dimensional Portal (Rift)"


There is no reason to think it does. In the absence of text to the effect it does, your interpretation is nothing but a houserule.

_________________
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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 Post subject: Re: Shifter Summoning
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:01 pm
  

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Knight

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I've already shown you text to that effect: the phrase "dimensional portal" occurs many times outside of the context of the 15th level invocation. If it's a portal and it's "dimensional" then it's a dimensional portal.

Your description better resembles your own argument: there's no reason to think it meant only the spell. It would be very easy to specify "Dimensional Portal spells" if that's what it was to be limited to.

Going back to the main book, Mystic Portal being described as a "dimensional rift" and a "portal" is clearly a "dimensional portal". The difference is just that it's 1-way and not 2-way, and the destination is a limited distance within the same world instead of to others.

Back in RMB161
The danger was that dimensional portals or "rifts" would sometimes tear open

RMB88's description of what we eventually call the "Communication Rift" in RUE also uses these terms interchangeably:

The process of a link to a supernatural being begins with communicating with it through a rift.
A small dimensional portal/rift is created at a ley line nexus point.
The shifter can usually communicate with the supernatural force by opening a tiny communication rift at a nexus point to his dimension and speak into the rift.


What Megaverse Builder thankfully did (because even the Dark Conversion expansion didn't) was finally quantify a PPE cost for this. Prior to giving them that OCC ability, people may have (logically) been under the impression you would need to learn the Dimensional Portal spell to actually utilize the "Link to the Supernatural" OCC option, likely limiting it to wealthy shifters who could afford to pay someone to teach that to them (since they didn't learn new spells as they leveled up until Megaverse builder, and didn't start with Dimensional Portal until Megaverse Builder).

Even though Dark Conversions gave them the Battle of Wills and minions/level, without the Communication Rift in DB7 there wasn't really a mechanic for contacting/summoning new minions. The best candidate probably would've been the Summon Lesser Beings ritual, perhaps with the assumption that they could use the Battle of Wills to control them beyond the usual duration it guaranteed.

Megaverse Builder notably removed Summon Lesser Being as one of their starter spells, I guess because now that Communication Rift was established as the mechanic they got their unlimited-duration minions, it wasn't needed anymore. Instead it was demoted to the list of spells they might select at 2nd level, alongside Summoner Greater Familiar.


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 Post subject: Re: Shifter Summoning
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:53 pm
  

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Monk

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
And RUE clarified the wording so that it specifies that it is a danger of using "this magic". not Dimensional Portal(s) in general. and as RUE was printed after Dark Conversion it's wording trumps, thus now it has been clarified that only Dimensional portal "This magic", not other magics.

So once more, you are affirmatively claiming that it applys to any dimensional portal, whatever the source. And i'm pointing out the actual text of the spell does not support your claim. Even if I grant prior to RUE it might have been vauge, the current text is not vauge, and even before that your reading is not much supported. So no, I remain unconvinced your interpretation is anything other than your own house rule.

_________________
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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 Post subject: Re: Shifter Summoning
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:14 pm
  

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Knight

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Going back to the topic of how this might affect a shifter: even though ALMOST EVERY TIME a portal is opened, a few poltergeists get through, given that Micro-Rifts are such a tight squeeze for poltergeists, I expect they get through less often than they normally would with larger rifts. The portals would just be harder to notice. RUE 123 talks about Shifters responding to undesired entries: they "close the Rift before the creature uses it".

The downside, is unlike a creature they anger by attempting a Battle of Wills on, a Poltergeist who just happens to be in the dark inter-rifty realm won't "indicate its anger first, tipping off the Shifter". This means they probably will not "decide to act at about the same time" giving the Shifter a chance to roll initiative and act first.

Poltergeists are invisible creatures and they're just going to dash right in. It's basically a surprise attack. Newbie shifters who aren't probably coached by teachers about this danger are going to be caught unaware.

It would be very easy to prevent though: just learn Protection Circle (Simple) and prep it around where you plan to open your Communication Rift, and then activate it for a paltry 5 4 PPE. This should prevent Poltergeists from entering through the rift.

RUE 121 lists this very useful invocation among a list of spells Shifters can now learn at level 2. Remember you get two choices:
    1) one "Protection" or "Summoning" spell
    2) ANY spell from the list.

PC:Simple is really a must to stop lesser supernatural beings from entering through your rift undesired.

Unfortunately: this really only helps you if you're summoning GREATER beings, because they can ignore PC:Simple.

If you're wanting to summon a lesser demon or something like that, you're basically going to need to turn your circle off or they won't be able to teleport through the rift into your world!

It's still a good idea to use the circle though, because you don't know how many Communication Rifts you'll need to open until you find what you're looking for, and having the circle active will protect from your rifts letting in Poltergeists until you're ready to briefly deactivate it to let your new pet Lesser Demon in.

If you do that and then quickly close the rift, it may well be fast enough that no Poltergeist gets in. After all, we know that there are exceptions (times when poltergeists don't enter in through a rift) and odds are, those times are when they are small rifts which are only vulnerable a short period of time.

Having Protection Circle: Simple is also extremely useful in case you lose the Battle of Wills against a Lesser Demon. It 100% protects you against the demon teleporting in through the rift to try and attack you! RUEp218 forbids them from coming within 5 feet of the circle. So that ought to include 5 feet away from the rift (on their side) if your rift is within the circle.

Getting some Amulets ("Sense the Presence of Spirits" and "See the Invisible") is also extremely useful here. With a 60ft range, you're basically going to know if there are any entities approaching the rift (either from the other side, or approaching the black tunnel in the space between dimensions) so you can opt not to lower the protection circle if they're going to get in. Unfortunately that's not one of the high-level spells that Shifters have easy access to, so you're probably gonna have to go barter with some Dweomer High Magus for it.

Even if they do get in: well, what's the effect of activating a protection circle on an entity already inside the circle? Does it keep them from getting out so you can deal with it?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
RUE clarified the wording so that it specifies that it is a danger of using "this magic". not Dimensional Portal(s) in general. and as RUE was printed after Dark Conversion it's wording trumps, thus now it has been clarified that only Dimensional portal "This magic", not other magics.

Well firstly, as I said earlier, there was no significant rewrite in RUE regarding Dimensional Portal in respect to the rewrite which had already occurred as of Book of Magic. BOM152 in 2001 (pre-DC in 2002) was when "always slips" was changed to "often slips". RUE225 simply inherited that. If you want to point out changes between BOMp152/RUEp225 that you think stand out as an "After Dark Conversions" change, feel free. All that I can see is...
    "Dimensional Portal" to "Dimensional Portal (Rift)"
    "randomly" to "random place"

That's it. I can't see a single other thing which was changed.

I have embiggened a word in your quote that got my attention. Where exactly are you getting the impression that the spell indicates it is the only magic carrying this risk?

There's really only ever been one restriction suggested in that spell:
    This is the only way a greater supernatural being can enter into our di­mension.
Which of course, doesn't pertain to poltergeists, as they are not greater beings. They're as lesser as they come.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
So once more, you are affirmatively claiming that it applys to any dimensional portal, whatever the source. And i'm pointing out the actual text of the spell does not support your claim.

The text of the spell does not in any way support it being the only way in which things slip into Rifts Earth, if that's what you're suggesting. I'm really not sure what you're suggesting.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Even if I grant prior to RUE it might have been vauge, the current text is not vauge, and even before that your reading is not much supported. So no, I remain unconvinced your interpretation is anything other than your own house rule.

Prior to RUE, or prior to Rifts Book of Magic?

Unless you want to highlight some significant change to the 15th level invocation from BOM>RUE, it's RMB>BOM which had the most significant changes, and BOM preceded DC by 1 year.

I'm trying to understand what you think might be vague in RMB but less vague in the later BOM version.

The only significant change I'm aware of is "always slips" > "often slips".

It never had anything at all to do with describing the nature of "slipping" of other kinds of dimensional portals.


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 Post subject: Re: Shifter Summoning
Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:10 am
  

Champion

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 1856
As much as i dont want to agree with Axel... like.. ever..

I think he’s about 60% right here.

The description of them slipping through is, in fact, from the writeup of the Poltergeist itself, not anything else, and hasnt been superceded by new information.

The “a few slip through any time A Shifter/Summoner summons a lesser or greater supernatural being” is clear, concise, and unequivocal. I’d say, on that one, he’s (however unfortunately) correct.

Where’d id disagree is the assertion that it is “any kind of dimeionsal portal ever” that they also may slip through. This part of their description was clearly referencing the spell, and not things like communication rifts or the inate ability of Shifters to just open a random/small/lesser portal (their class ability).

So i’d say that post-RUE, this one is no longer relevant as Dimensional Portal is now worded differently.... but Poltergeists CAN slip through a Dim. Portal, its just that now its not a guarantee and may be something else instead.

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 Post subject: Re: Shifter Summoning
Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:38 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
Posts: 5196
I suppose 60% could still be "almost every", it's not like "almost" exactly has a specific definition.

We know from CB>DC that there are now "not almost" times they don't enter. This makes 100% sense due to the Protection Circle: Simple trick which I'm thinking perhaps KS didn't have in mind when he wrote it. It would've been easy to overlook the Communication Rift when writing it too, since it hadn't been fleshed out. Even though it wasn't fully fleshed out until DB7, it's been in the Shifter's description since the outset so that (or protection circles) might've been brought up and prompted the change. Obviously something prompted KS to add in the "almost" there, something during the 10 years between CB1 and DC.

Interesting thing I did just notice when reading BTS1 pg 160 to research the roots of this statement (like make things in Rifts, it was just copied over from BTS) It's slightly different there too:

    Poltergeists are fairly common because a few enter into our dimension every time a dimensional portal is opened or a natural dimensional rift occurs at a ley line, power triads or nexuses. They also sneak in whenever an arcanist uses a summon lesser or greater being ritual.

The change from "line .. or nexus(es)" to "nexus" from BTS>CB is one worth noting.

It appears to imply that in BTS, natural dimensional rifts could occur at ley lines. I'm not sure where in the book to find that though. Pg 134 mentions:

    LUNAR ECLIPSE
    There is also a 25% chance that 1D4 supernatural beings can enter into our world at each nexus point during a Lunar Eclipse.
    PARTIAL SOLAR ECLIPSE
    There is also a 50% chance that 1D6 supernatural creatures can enter into our world at each nexus point during a partial eclipse.
    TOTAL ECLIPSE OF THE SUN
    There is also a 70% likelihood that 3D6 miscellaneous, supernatural creatures will be able to enter into our world, during the eclipse, at all nexus points under the effect of the total eclipse.
I would assume all 3 of these cases involve rifts opening, but all 3 only specify nexuses, not lines.

I believe what the description of the Poltergeist might be referring to is on the following 2 pages: "Transitional Places of Power". 135 says These happen "along a ley line pattern" but rarely at a nexus, so it would basically usually happen on a ley line. It only happens "from time to time", however specific that is. 136's table "Effects and Degree of Energy Released" includes 51-66 (16% chance) of a "dimensional doorway" (ie a portal/rift, let's not split hairs) letting in lesser beings, and 84-00 (17% chance) of letting in a major being. 18-50 (33% chance) is equal to lunar or partial solar and 67-83 to total solar, though I don't know if that would include the accompanying % chance of rifts opening like at nexuses.

TPOP rules were never printed in Rifts, which could explain why the reference to "natural dimensional rift occurs at a ley line" was removed when tweaking Poltergeist for the conversion book. It's a shame... TPOP would've been a great feature for Rifts.

Given that RUE finally did restore a random chance for natural rifts to occur at ley lines (even if it's just a standard % chance during special times of the year, and not as interesting as TPOP) there isn't really any reason to assume Poltergeists won't come in during those too, in addition to the (more likely to open) ones at nexuses. Natural rifts are still dimensional portals, after all, so the previous sentence justifies it, and the obvious reason the reference to Geists@Lines was removed was due to Rifts not having TPOP chances of random rifts at ley lines.

BTS also had rules that it seems it took Rifts a while to inherit. Pg 131 mentions free ISP/melee for psychics (RUE finally did that but not RMB) and 132 let supernatural creatures choose between free PPE or ISP every single melee round...

Rifts never got that, it instead had these long periods you had to wait... only after HU2/PF2 got the PPE/melee did RUE finally get it. WEIRD. I had never paid much attention to BTS specifics and just assumed they must've had lesser rates because I was so used to Rifts power creep that I had always assumed Rifts to be more highly powered than its predecessors.

This clears up some confusion I always had about something mentioned under the Poltergeist in the conversion book (176):

    the poltergeist can draw on the ISP and/or PPE around it to perform psionic feats.
    This means they have a virtually unlimited amount of ISP when on a ley line.

That always felt off... you just couldn't get that much PPE from a ley line when CB (and even DC) was published, according to the RMB rules. RUE came along and fixed that about 3 years later, of course, but this was clearly written with the BTS rules for ley lines in mind and not modified for Rifts which did not reprint the 5/melee rates that supernatural beings got (arcanists got it too, though it was explicitly not accumulative so I don't think they could replenish personal reserves).



Quote:
This part of their description was clearly referencing the spell

How is that "clearly", exactly? The phrase "dimensional portal" has always had applications besides the spell with that name since even before Rifts.

Quote:
not things like communication rifts or the inate ability of Shifters to just open a random/small/lesser portal (their class ability).

The class abilities did not exist at the time, but that doesn't mean future means of opening dimensional portals would somehow be "safe" portals.

Quote:
but Poltergeists CAN slip through a Dim. Portal, its just that now its not a guarantee and may be something else instead.

I think it could ALWAYS be something else. One very interesting thing I found when reading BTS1 is that page 126 actually had additional instructions after that sentence which Rifts didn't use. They look REALLY FUN.

It had a random table you would roll on to see what came through each minute (unsure if that means start of or end of minute, like if you roll immediately or wait 60 then roll) and 35-42 (8% chance) was 1D6 poltergeists while 65-72 (also 8%) was 1D4 poltergeists, amongst other interesting stuff.

Since BTS160 had poltergeists slipping through "every time" and 16% is not "every", one can only conclude that this random table on BTS126 was in ADDITION to the usual 100% chance. Ie you had the GUARANTEED "few" and then the 16%/min chance of supplementary poltergeists in lieu of other threats.

126 also has a "Summon Greater Being" which I've never seen since... it also looks like loads of fun. A good compliment to "Summon Lesser Being" and it has interesting text referencing the following DP spell.
    except for vampires, a greater supernatural being can not bring its physical form into our world except through a dimensional portal. However these demigods can divide a part of their essence to possess the summoner or some other victim.

...does that mean all Greater Beings count as demigods? Goqua and Mindolar and VAMPIRES are demigods?

The list of lesser/greater was on 154, the only greaters in BTS were Elementals/Goqua/Mindolar/Vampires/Ancient Gods/Ancient Demigods. BTS apparently even considered gargoyle lords to be lesser beings (unlike Palladium Summoners) apparently there weren't any mages at the time ("it is only the gargoyle lords who posssess magic knowledge")

Despite the BTS176 TOC re-affirming "Ancient Gods and Demigods", I actually can't find them further in the book. Instead, after vampires is "Supernatural Intelligences" on 185, along with witch-esque rules I would say more closely resembling what we saw in CB1 than PRPG's witch ever did.

Getting back to BTS' interesting rules about "Transitional Places of Power" (or the random monster tables for Dimensional Portal), I will note that there is absolutely nothing preventing us from using rules like that in Rifts. It obviously isn't mandatory, but it isn't forbidden either.

I think there are pretty strong implications that Rifts Earth (and possibly even settings like Heroes Unlimited, Nightbane and Palladium Fantasy) have higher magic levels and more unstable ley energy than the world of Beyond the Supernatural. I can't think of any specific references to that just now, but it's the general feeling I get for these settings. It seems like using those rules in other games would make complete sense, based on the picture one gets of the degree of supernatural elements present in these worlds.


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