did Paired WP dual-strike cease stealing your parries?

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Axelmania
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did Paired WP dual-strike cease stealing your parries?

Unread post by Axelmania »

I was reviewing RUE327 from reading another thread (nobody discuss guns here please, this isn't meant to resurrect the discussion) and I noticed something odd...

Originally in 1990, "Paired Weapons" was described on page 36 of RMB which clearly stated:
every time they use twin actions they LOSE their automatic parry

RUE346 still says something to that effect:
However, a twin, simultaneous strike with both weapons means losing the automatic parry and leaves the character open to his opponent's next attack without benefit of a parry

I believe I never noticed this (or at least, didn't process it or remember it well) because this sentence carries over from the bottom of the left column to the top of the right column of page 327 of Ultimate Edition. Sometimes it can be hard to retain sentences broken up by columns or pages like this. Read continuously...


A character with W.P. Paired Weapons using both of his attacks simultaneously on someone is vulnerable to attack from a second opponent.
When fighting three (or more) attackers, the character would be able to try to parry two of the attackers, but any other attacks would be unopposed.


This sets a scenario where you make a dual strike against an opponent, but can still make 2 parries?

I think this opens up a good situation to think about...

For example:

1) RMBp36 only talks about losing the automatic parry, but doesn't actually forbid parrying altogether (presumably you might still be able to do it by spending an action, like with a dodge, which might be preferable if you had a better parry bonus)

2) RUEp346 goes beyond saying the automatic parry is lost: it specifies that they're open to "the opponent's next attack" without benefit of a parry. Is that...

    2a) "without benefit" only referring to the lost AUTO parry?
    2b) or is it a prohibition against all parries whatsoever, including "costs an action" parries?
    2c) if so, is the prohibition-against-all-parries in respect to just that opponent, or ALL attackers?
    2d) if not, is auto-parry lost just against your target, or against ALL attackers?

3) RUEp327 does not specify that the parries that can be made against the 2 attackers is an AUTO parry, so would it be referring to spending an action to parry?

4) is that why it's limited to 2, because you can "parry two different attackers"?

I never used to understand the benefit of parrying 2 different attackers. "Well gee, I get an auto-parry against everyone, right?" But if you do lose the auto-parry for whatever reason (such as doing a dual strike) then suddenly it makes sense: you can spend 1 action instead of 2 actions to avoid 2 attacks.

5) What does it mean in respect to the person you targeted though? Can you parry them too, or only a "second" opponent?

6) what is up with "second" opponent yet "three or more" attackers? Shouldn't it be either "two or more"? Very confusing!
HWalsh
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Re: did Paired WP dual-strike cease stealing your parries?

Unread post by HWalsh »

First thing to remember:

RMB doesn't matter anymore. RUE supercedes it in every way.

RUE 327 doesn't say that you lose your automatic parry on a double strike. It says you are vulnerable to a 2nd attacker. This indicates you don't get your automatic parry vs them.

RUE 346 gives notes for using paired weapons. It gives the general rules for paired weapons then says to see pg. 327. This is because some weapons are paired by default and can be used without W.P. Paired. These will have paired in the weapon description.

You don't need W.P. paired weapons to use paired weapons. You just don't get the benefits.

If you do have W.P. Paired then you gain benefits listed on 327 which let's you auto-parry your primary opponent.

Remember also that W.P. paired is generally restricted to high level and martial characters.
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Re: did Paired WP dual-strike cease stealing your parries?

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

HWalsh wrote:Remember also that W.P. paired is generally restricted to high level and martial characters.


Men-At-Arms OCCs, specifically. Which is something like half of them.
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Re: did Paired WP dual-strike cease stealing your parries?

Unread post by HWalsh »

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
HWalsh wrote:Remember also that W.P. paired is generally restricted to high level and martial characters.


Men-At-Arms OCCs, specifically. Which is something like half of them.


I doubt half.

In RUE there are:

8 Men at Arms
8 Adventurers/Scholars
6 Pactitioners of Magic
4 Psychics
1 RCC

27 OCCs/RCCs - 8 are MAAs

Less than 1/3
Last edited by HWalsh on Fri May 03, 2019 2:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
HWalsh
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Re: did Paired WP dual-strike cease stealing your parries?

Unread post by HWalsh »

There are:

180 Men at Arms OCC
65 Adventurers
89 Practitioners of Magic
31 Psychics

Over 1/2 of MAAs are variants of the same class.

And over 250 RCCs

What's funny (to me) is I bet GMs (and players) forget that rule *and* often mis-attribute it.

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Mack
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Re: did Paired WP dual-strike cease stealing your parries?

Unread post by Mack »

Stop quibbling.
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The Beast
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Re: did Paired WP dual-strike cease stealing your parries?

Unread post by The Beast »

HWalsh wrote:There are:

180 Men at Arms OCC
65 Adventurers
89 Practitioners of Magic
31 Psychics

Over 1/2 of MAAs are variants of the same class.

And over 250 RCCs

What's funny (to me) is I bet GMs (and players) forget that rule *and* often mis-attribute it.

True Atlantean Undead Slayer? Practitioner of Magic
Mystic Knight? Practitioner of Magic


I think it's more likely they don't know that only RUE has that restriction added in.
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Re: did Paired WP dual-strike cease stealing your parries?

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

Mack wrote:Stop quibbling.


Stop being unprofessional, stifling, and arrogant.

Warning: Insults. Mack


Not only were we NOT quibbling, HWalsh pointed out the rather important information that a lot of classes people think are Men at Arms, aren't.
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Re: did Paired WP dual-strike cease stealing your parries?

Unread post by HWalsh »

Mack wrote:Stop quibbling.


I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to quibble, I was just commenting...

Though I am shocked about the Mystic Knight and the Undead Slayer... I personally thought (with the names alone) that they were both Men at Arms until I looked them up in the GMG to actually see how many MAA classes there were. I've seen tons of Mystic Knights (or Order of the White Rose) with Paired Weapons, not to mention Psi-Warriors and Undead Slayers. I knew about the MAA rule, but I just assumed any class with Knight or Warrior in the name was MAA but... Not the case... I found it interesting.
Colonel_Tetsuya
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Re: did Paired WP dual-strike cease stealing your parries?

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

Still breaking the law, i see, Mack.

Warning: Do it again and ill be happy to take legal action.

If you dont want to be called out for your unprofessional and illegal behaviour...

dont do it.

Im asbolutely done putting up with what is laughably called “moderation” around here. No, i will not take it to PMs. That’s how the shady crap continues, because it never gets aired out.
Im loving the Foes list; it's the only thing keeping me from tearing out my eyes from the dumb.
Colonel_Tetsuya
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Re: did Paired WP dual-strike cease stealing your parries?

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

HWalsh wrote:
Mack wrote:Stop quibbling.


I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to quibble, I was just commenting...


You weren’t quibbling.

Neither one of us was.

I was pointing out that it was specifically MAA classes, and you further clarified that a lot of classes that people probably consider warrior types aren’t MAA and cant take it.
Im loving the Foes list; it's the only thing keeping me from tearing out my eyes from the dumb.
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