Temporal Wizard/Warrior

[HarleeKnight]

Can they buy and learn spells or are they restricted to new spells only when they level?

[Mack]

Can they buy and learn spells or are they restricted to new spells only when they level?

The general consensus on this forum is that they can purchase/learn Invocations the same as a LLW. However, that's not expressly stated in any book.

[HarleeKnight]

Can they buy and learn spells or are they restricted to new spells only when they level?

The general consensus on this forum is that they can purchase/learn Invocations the same as a LLW. However, that's not expressly stated in any book.

Thanks

[tsh77769]

I think it does mention somewhere that they are true spell casters and IIRC places like the Kingsdale Militia referred to in Juicer Uprising and other references mention them learning additional spells.

tsh77769

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Can they buy and learn spells or are they restricted to new spells only when they level?

The general consensus on this forum is that they can purchase/learn Invocations the same as a LLW. However, that's not expressly stated in any book.

Step 8: The Pursuit of Magic
Learning Spells: Practitioners of Magic, except for the Mystic, can learn and cast new spells far above their actual experience level.

Italicized and Underlined by me for emphasis.

It then goes on to say that the three ways to do so are to learn them as you level up, research them yourself, or be taught the spell by someone who knows it.

If you aren't a Mystic of some flavor, you can learn spells at any time, unless your OCC says otherwise.

FWIW, when i went through the list of all the spellcasters i could find, every class that couldn't learn spells at any time was either a Mystic variant (and had Mystic in the OCC name usually) and called itself out as a mystic variant, or, like the Native American Shamans, contains the phrase "Like a Mystic..." under their spell advancement section. Im sure that thread is around here somewhere, if you search for it.

[Curbludgeon]

There are OCCs like Elemental Fusionist and Warlock that don't necessarily say the word Mystic. While some of the HU categories might be an edge case, I'd guess that if an OCC description uses the words "intuitive", "mystic", or "granted" then they can't learn spells independently.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

There are OCCs like Elemental Fusionist and Warlock that don't necessarily say the word Mystic. While some of the HU categories might be an edge case, I'd guess that if an OCC description uses the words "intuitive", "mystic", or "granted" then they can't learn spells independently.

Right, which is why i pointed out above, that you can learn spells as long as you aren’t a mystic of some flavor or your OCC says otherwise, which both the Fusionist and Warlock do.

[eliakon]

It comes down to the GM.
The reason I say that is that the rules for the Temporal Classes are from the RMB days not the RUE days.
So claiming that the rules written decades later are what was intended when they were written is pretty absurd.

It also presumes that the specific interpretation of "learn spells above their level" means that they can be taught spells... which is not spelled out in canon. It is a common headcanon sure... but there is no actual RAW canon support for the claim. Just that you can cast learn a spell higher than your level... like how a Temporal Wizard can start with a level 8 spell. That doesn't prove that he can or can not be taught spells though. Thus while you can learn spells the mechanics are not spelled out.

[42dragon]

There are many sentences within the write up for the Temporal Classes that that state that they "learn" and are "taught" temporal spell magic. While this is in the flavor/description/fluff text, and is not spelled out as an ability. It strongly implies that Temporal Casters are a learned class and can be taught spells at any time if they can find a teacher, like most other non-mystic casters.

[eliakon]

There are many sentences within the write up for the Temporal Classes that that state that they "learn" and are "taught" temporal spell magic. While this is in the flavor/description/fluff text, and is not spelled out as an ability. It strongly implies that Temporal Casters are a learned class and can be taught spells at any time if they can find a teacher, like most other non-mystic casters.

Can you provide some of these sentences?
Besides the ones that are describing learning the OCC itself?
Because simply because they learn the OCC does not mean that the OCC allows for learning spells. There are a number of learned/trained OCCs that do not permit learning spells.

[42dragon]

Page 66, Temporal Wizard, last sentence of second paragraph. " It is during this period that the mage learns the secrets of spell magic and the power of greed and villainy."
Page 66, Temporal Wizard, last sentence of the third paragraph. "It is only in the last year or so of service that the apprentice is finally taught the ways of temporal magic."

Yes, these are descriptions and fluff text. But still they learn and are taught. Why would they stop being able to be taught after their apprenticeship is over?

So that is how I have always played it. YMMV

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

../sigh

Again, everyone is making this too complicated.

The default rule is:

Step 8: The Pursuit of Magic
Learning Spells: Practitioners of Magic, except for the Mystic, can learn and cast new spells far above their actual experience level.

So its a pretty easy logic problem to figure out if you can be taught spells at any time.

1 - are you a Mystic of some variety? If answer is yes, you cannot be taught spells. If no, proceed to line 2.
2 - are your spellcasting abilities "like a Mystic" - I.E. tribal shamans, etc, who have the line "Like a Mystic, the X learns spells by blah blah blah". If yes, you cannot be taught spells. If no, proceed to line 3.
3 - Does your OCC specifically state that you cannot be taught spells? If yes, you cannot be taught spells. If no, proceed to line 4.
4 - The general rule in RUE applies to you. You can learn spells.

Full stop.

[eliakon]

../sigh

Again, everyone is making this too complicated.

The default rule is:

Step 8: The Pursuit of Magic
Learning Spells: Practitioners of Magic, except for the Mystic, can learn and cast new spells far above their actual experience level.

So its a pretty easy logic problem to figure out if you can be taught spells at any time.

1 - are you a Mystic of some variety? If answer is yes, you cannot be taught spells. If no, proceed to line 2.
2 - are your spellcasting abilities "like a Mystic" - I.E. tribal shamans, etc, who have the line "Like a Mystic, the X learns spells by blah blah blah". If yes, you cannot be taught spells. If no, proceed to line 3.
3 - Does your OCC specifically state that you cannot be taught spells? If yes, you cannot be taught spells. If no, proceed to line 4.
4 - The general rule in RUE applies to you. You can learn spells.

Full stop.

"Can learn and cast spells far above their actual level"
and
"Can be taught spells"
Are not the same.
You can intuitively learn spells with out being taught them. We know this because there are classes that can learn spells that are above their level... but can not be taught spells, and are not mystics.
When trying to use logic as the solution
If A =/= B then you can not substitute B in for A in your solution./

[eliakon]

Page 66, Temporal Wizard, last sentence of second paragraph. " It is during this period that the mage learns the secrets of spell magic and the power of greed and villainy."
Page 66, Temporal Wizard, last sentence of the third paragraph. "It is only in the last year or so of service that the apprentice is finally taught the ways of temporal magic."

Yes, these are descriptions and fluff text. But still they learn and are taught. Why would they stop being able to be taught after their apprenticeship is over?

So that is how I have always played it. YMMV

Because you are learning how the magic works?
You have to be taught how to be a Spell Thief, a Cloud Knight, A Mystic Knight, A Druid, a Shaman (all kinds), A Biomancer, A Priest... the list goes on and on and on. Honestly, the number of trained 'men of magic' OCCs that can't learn new spells outnumbers the ones that can.
There are dozens of magical OCCs that you study and learn the OCC...but the magic process you learn does not permit you to be taught spells you have to figure them out on your own, meditate, be granted or some other source.

[Axelmania]

You have to be taught how to be a Spell Thief, a Cloud Knight, A Mystic Knight, A Druid, a Shaman (all kinds), A Biomancer, A Priest... the list goes on and on and on.

The only magical class I don't think you need to have a teacher for is Witch.

[eliakon]

You have to be taught how to be a Spell Thief, a Cloud Knight, A Mystic Knight, A Druid, a Shaman (all kinds), A Biomancer, A Priest... the list goes on and on and on.

The only magical class I don't think you need to have a teacher for is Witch.

And even some flavors of Witch are taught!
Some (though not all) flavors of Mystic are intuitive, with again, some taught.
I think the Elemental Fusionist is usually intuitive, though canonically it too can be taught so the entire class might be a teaching thing the eight ball is hazy on this one.
Some Warlocks are totally intuitive... though since is canonically a teachable class now, there is evidence that you are taught it too... just taught by the Elements eight ball is hazy here too.
Most (first generation) Chaos Wizards are totally intuitive, though they can teach other people how to be Chaos Wizards so even that doesn't apply.
But yeah. Outside of a very tiny minority... you have to be taught magic.

[Axelmania]

I should probably have said "Pact Witch", when Mystic Russia introduced a couple more types I think they referred to the classic PF/CB1 version under that extended title.

[Dr. Doom III]

Can they buy and learn spells or are they restricted to new spells only when they level?

Yes they can learn new spells at any time. as long as they have someone to teach it or learn it from a scroll. Scrolls are generally rare on Rifts Earth.
Temporal Wizards are true spell casters like the Ley Line Walker or Palladium Wizards. Temporal Warriors are "lesser" spell casters and are restricted in the learning of spells only in that when they "figure out" new spells per level they must be a Temporal spell or a standard spell at or below their level. Since Temporal Spells are high level magic they are not limited by spell level when taught standard spell magic since they have the ability to cast high level spells.

[eliakon]

Can they buy and learn spells or are they restricted to new spells only when they level?

Yes they can learn new spells at any time. as long as they have someone to teach it or learn it from a scroll. Scrolls are generally rare on Rifts Earth.
Temporal Wizards are true spell casters like the Ley Line Walker or Palladium Wizards. Temporal Warriors are "lesser" spell casters and are restricted in the learning of spells only in that when they "figure out" new spells per level they must be a Temporal spell or a standard spell at or below their level. Since Temporal Spells are high level magic they are not limited by spell level when taught standard spell magic since they have the ability to cast high level spells.

Again, that is a common house rule but there is no canon support for the claim.
It may be the RAI, and it is certainly the way I have seen it most commonly run...
but that does not make it RAW.

[Axelmania]

What rules describe purchasing spell tutelage and where do they exclude the Temporal Warrior?

[eliakon]

What rules describe purchasing spell tutelage and where do they exclude the Temporal Warrior?

They don't have to exclude the Temporal Warrior.
They don't have to.
Because the class itself does not say that they can learn spells.
Thus adding that feature is a house rule.
Other classes do state this. Therefore we can safely assume that at least in all the other magical classes that are written and described as "scholastic" that the ability to be taught spells at any time was intended... because it was specifically called out as a class feature. That feature is notably absent in this class.

There is nothing in the spell teaching rules that state "you can teach spells to anyone who casts magic"
The closest we have is that non-mystics are allowed to learn spells above their level. Which is, for example how a level 1 Temporal Warrior can start with level 8+ spells.

The rules do not have to say what is forbidden, after all it would be impossible to list everything that is forbidden. Instead the rules list that which you are allowed to do.
We do not assume that "all people can be taught spells" for example.
We know you can not teach Mystics, or Warlocks, or Witches, or Biomancers, or Druids, or Cloud Weavers, or Cloud Knights, or Shamans, or Medicine Men, or Spell Thieves, or Summoners, or Diabolists, or Line Drawers, or Stone Masters, or Channelers, or Mystic Imbued, or Priests, or non-mages of any kind, or...
There for the presumption that someone has the ability to learn spells is not justified. It is a special trait that needs to be granted as a class feature and that feature is not present in the canon write up of the class.

It is common for GMs to house rule in this ability...
but make no mistake it is a house rule.

[kaid]

Can they buy and learn spells or are they restricted to new spells only when they level?

The general consensus on this forum is that they can purchase/learn Invocations the same as a LLW. However, that's not expressly stated in any book.

Step 8: The Pursuit of Magic
Learning Spells: Practitioners of Magic, except for the Mystic, can learn and cast new spells far above their actual experience level.

Italicized and Underlined by me for emphasis.

It then goes on to say that the three ways to do so are to learn them as you level up, research them yourself, or be taught the spell by someone who knows it.

If you aren't a Mystic of some flavor, you can learn spells at any time, unless your OCC says otherwise.

FWIW, when i went through the list of all the spellcasters i could find, every class that couldn't learn spells at any time was either a Mystic variant (and had Mystic in the OCC name usually) and called itself out as a mystic variant, or, like the Native American Shamans, contains the phrase "Like a Mystic..." under their spell advancement section. Im sure that thread is around here somewhere, if you search for it.

Generally it's more often stated that they can't learn new spells like normal more often than it is stated that they can learn new spells like a LLW. Generally the exceptions are called out explicitly and otherwise assume they work like LLW for buying spells.

[eliakon]

Can they buy and learn spells or are they restricted to new spells only when they level?

The general consensus on this forum is that they can purchase/learn Invocations the same as a LLW. However, that's not expressly stated in any book.

Step 8: The Pursuit of Magic
Learning Spells: Practitioners of Magic, except for the Mystic, can learn and cast new spells far above their actual experience level.

Italicized and Underlined by me for emphasis.

It then goes on to say that the three ways to do so are to learn them as you level up, research them yourself, or be taught the spell by someone who knows it.

If you aren't a Mystic of some flavor, you can learn spells at any time, unless your OCC says otherwise.

FWIW, when i went through the list of all the spellcasters i could find, every class that couldn't learn spells at any time was either a Mystic variant (and had Mystic in the OCC name usually) and called itself out as a mystic variant, or, like the Native American Shamans, contains the phrase "Like a Mystic..." under their spell advancement section. Im sure that thread is around here somewhere, if you search for it.

Generally it's more often stated that they can't learn new spells like normal more often than it is stated that they can learn new spells like a LLW. Generally the exceptions are called out explicitly and otherwise assume they work like LLW for buying spells.

Again everyone is trying to make the rules state something they do not.
The ability to learn and cast spells above your level does NOT mean you can be taught spells.
Period.
It means exactly what it says, that you can learn and cast spells that are above your level.
Period.
If you are level 1 you can learn a level 8 spell. This is not D&D where you can only learn level 1 spells at level 1 and have to wait for specific levels before you can get specific spells.
Seriously, that is all that is saying.

To be able to be taught spells you have to have that ability. If you are not specifically stated to be able to be taught spells, then guess what? You need your GM to grant you that ability otherwise you don't have it.
Because there is nothing in the books, anywhere, that says that there is a right to be taught spells.
So far no one has been able to point to any text, anywhere that says you have the right to be taught spells.
No one.
Not one single textual citation. In any one of the nearly 100 Palladium books...
That suggests that this is a headcanon idea that is simply so popular that people think it is a real rule... even though it isn't

[Daniel Stoker]

Looking over the old main book and then World Book 2 which is England, Eli does have a point. All of the 3 classes that can purchase spells at anytime specifically state that in the OCC. Now the Mystic class does specifically state as well that they can't be taught any spells beyond what they learn on their own per level, but at the time at least it seems like they were going with a format where if you could do it, it said so in the class.


Daniel Stoker

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Looking over the old main book and then World Book 2 which is England, Eli does have a point. All of the 3 classes that can purchase spells at anytime specifically state that in the OCC. Now the Mystic class does specifically state as well that they can't be taught any spells beyond what they learn on their own per level, but at the time at least it seems like they were going with a format where if you could do it, it said so in the class.


Daniel Stoker

Nerp.

Practioners of Magic, except the Mystic, can learn and cast spells far above their actual experience level

That’s not unclear. It doesnt say “Ley Line Walkers, Shifters and Techno Wizards” it says “Practioners of Magic, other than the Mystic”.

So, even going by RMB era rules, we apply the following:

1 - are you a Mystic? If yes, you cannot learn spells at any time. If no, proceed to line 2.
2 - does your OCC state that you cannot learn spells at any time (or, as in a Warlock, non-special spell types?)? If no, proceed to line 3.
3 - Are you Practitioner of Magic that is not a Mystic? Then you can learn spells any time.

[Daniel Stoker]

Yes it says they can learn and cast spells above their level, but that doesn't say that they can learn more spells then they get via their increase per level which is specifically noted in the other 3 magic using OCC's in the original Rifts Book but isn't noted in the Temporal Warrior or Wizard OCC. Also it'd be REALLY hard for that rule to refer to other magic using classes when at the time those were the only ones we had.


Daniel Stoker

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Yes it says they can learn and cast spells above their level, but that doesn't say that they can learn more spells then they get via their increase per level which is specifically noted in the other 3 magic using OCC's in the original Rifts Book but isn't noted in the Temporal Warrior or Wizard OCC. [b]Also it'd be REALLY hard for that rule to refer to other magic using classes when at the time those were the only ones we had. ]/b]


Daniel Stoker

Two problems with your theory:

1 - the rules also dont say gravity is a thing, that you can breathe, eat, drink, etc. If they can learn spells, they can learn spells. Mystics dont learn spells, they simply get them.

2 - in response to the bolded and italicized - that requires you to assume that Kevin is so monumentally stupid that he wrote the RMB rules fully intending to never, ever add another magic-using OCC. Kevin's got issues with his writing... but he's not a nearly-handicapped mental deficient.

Its a simple statement. The mental gymnastics you guys go through to try to complicate everything to fit your pet headcanon theories is astounding.

[Daniel Stoker]

Yes it says they can learn and cast spells above their level, but that doesn't say that they can learn more spells then they get via their increase per level which is specifically noted in the other 3 magic using OCC's in the original Rifts Book but isn't noted in the Temporal Warrior or Wizard OCC. [b]Also it'd be REALLY hard for that rule to refer to other magic using classes when at the time those were the only ones we had. ]/b]


Daniel Stoker

Two problems with your theory:

1 - the rules also dont say gravity is a thing, that you can breathe, eat, drink, etc. If they can learn spells, they can learn spells. Mystics dont learn spells, they simply get them.

2 - in response to the bolded and italicized - that requires you to assume that Kevin is so monumentally stupid that he wrote the RMB rules fully intending to never, ever add another magic-using OCC. Kevin's got issues with his writing... but he's not a nearly-handicapped mental deficient.

Its a simple statement. The mental gymnastics you guys go through to try to complicate everything to fit your pet headcanon theories is astounding.

Only 2? Damn I’m slacking off here!

But yeah I agree the rules don’t have to tell you everything, but when they follow a format where they specifically say in the individual OCC that they can do X but then don’t say one of them can when it talks about the basic item I’d say that the trend is you need to have that information in the OCC to do it. And I’m sure Kevin DID plan to write new OCC’s but you’re assuming he never planned for anyone BUT mystics to be denied the ability to buy spells which I honestly can’t imagine. What I tend to think was he was talking about the classes as they were then and not putting much thought into the future at the time. Cause we know how detail and rule oriented Kevin is.


Daniel Stoker

[eliakon]

Yes it says they can learn and cast spells above their level, but that doesn't say that they can learn more spells then they get via their increase per level which is specifically noted in the other 3 magic using OCC's in the original Rifts Book but isn't noted in the Temporal Warrior or Wizard OCC. [b]Also it'd be REALLY hard for that rule to refer to other magic using classes when at the time those were the only ones we had. ]/b]


Daniel Stoker

Two problems with your theory:

1 - the rules also dont say gravity is a thing, that you can breathe, eat, drink, etc. If they can learn spells, they can learn spells. Mystics dont learn spells, they simply get them.

You are conflating two different things there.
Learn spells is not be taught spells.
And as for your claim that Mystics "don't learn spells"?
RUE page 117 Mystic OCC power 2 " Learning New Spells" (emphasis mine)
Looks like the Rules disagree with you here
Seriously. The official term used in every book is "learning spells". Thus that is the term used. Trying to pretend that the term used in literally every book is not the one used so that you can pretend that the word is not being used as written and instead can use it in a different sense?
That is a No Go.
Magic Users Learn Spells. Even Mystics.
That is the correct terminology in Palladium.

2 - in response to the bolded and italicized - that requires you to assume that Kevin is so monumentally stupid that he wrote the RMB rules fully intending to never, ever add another magic-using OCC. Kevin's got issues with his writing... but he's not a nearly-handicapped mental deficient.

There is nothing this that requires Kevin to be stupid, monumentally or not.
He made a simple rule and expected it to be followed.
The rules are pretty clear.
Rule 1) Mystics can NEVER have spells higher then their level
Rule 2) If you want to be taught spells it needs to say that you can be taught spells any time in your OCC.
Pretty simple
Seriously the rules work just fine. Because they are not about spell teaching in the slightest. This is, in fact, why spell teaching is covered IN THE NEXT PARAGRAPH.
The ENTIRE statement in that block makes it clear that the context is not about spell teaching in the slightest.
It states that a second level Ley Line Walker can cast a tenth level spell if they have it.
AKA they can learn and cast spells above their level.
This was important to note when Rifts was published because the trend in magic in RPGs at that time was level based spells were limited to your class level.
But in Palladium only classes like the Mystic and the Warlock have that limitation.

Taking one line out of the entire paragraph, out of context, and then trying to change it's meaning so as to make it say something that it doesn't say, on a topic that it isn't discussing?
That is a No Go.

Spell teaching though? That is a whole different subject found in the next paragraph.

Its a simple statement. The mental gymnastics you guys go through to try to complicate everything to fit your pet headcanon theories is astounding.

Your the one with the head canon here and the only one going through mental gymnastics here.
Your theory is that even though the rules do not say you can be taught spells... you can.
We can prove that your rule is not about teaching because we have demonstrated dozens of magic OCCs that are neither Mystics nor can be taught spells. Ergo the claim that the rule that states that any class other than Mystics can learn spells higher then their level is provably not about spell teaching.
Because to be about spell teaching it would require that ALL OCCS OTHER THAN MYSTICS BE ALLOWED TO BUY SPELLS WITH NO EXCEPTIONS AT ALL. That is pretty obviously not the case which demonstrates that the rule is NOT ABOUT SPELL TEACHING AT ALL.

The rule is about what level spells you can cast.
Period.
Making the rule about spell teaching is the head canon.
The only gymnastics here are trying to take a rule about spell levels and make it fit spell teaching, even though it is demonstrably not about spell teaching, by
-simply ignoring all the cases where it conflicts and
-narrowly interpreting the most literal interpretation of one word...
-then claiming that that narrowly defined word can be substituted for a different word...
Which is, any way you slice it... gymnastics.

[Mack]

Please keep this amicable.

[42dragon]

Well if we are discussing what you can and can't do specifically.
RMB and WB3 are both from the same era.

RMB: LLW, TW, "additional spells can be learned and or purchased at any time". spelled out precisely this sets a precedent that it must be spelled out for a magic user to learn additional spells in this fashion.
Mystic, "unlike other magic OCC's the mystic can not be taught nor purchase additional spell knowledge". also spelled out precisely this sets a precedent that it must be spelled out for this prohibition.
however this also separates this prohibition from other general magic OCC's.
Shifter, "new spells must be learned, purchased, or acquired as usual". What is "usual"? Does this set any precedent?

So per the main book it is specifically called out if you can and if you cannot. And all of these were separate line item powers/abilities in the OCC write ups.

WB3: TWiz,TWar, It does not state specifically either way. It does not have a separate line item power/ability that discusses this.

So, since there is no allowing or forbidding in WB3 (likely an oversight) we get to argue this till the cows come home. Because the precedent was previously set that to be allowed it must be spelled out and to be forbidden again it must be spelled out. The classes in WB3 do not fall into either of these precedents. Therefore both options are head canon because canon does not exist for these two classes. It was never stated one way or the other.

My opinion they can learn and/or purchase at any time. Since they are not an intuitive magic class. In the end it will be up to your GM.

[eliakon]

To be honest... I have run them both ways in different games.
And both versions seem to work just fine.
They just end up being a bit different in the final feel is all.

In one version they have learned just another from of magic. In this version the Temporal class characters in the games tend to spend a lot of their time trading the very high level spells that they start with for lots of other spells and end up as a form of 'pseudo-archmage'. Which is fine, they are supposed to be a mighty breed of magic user and this results in that.

In the other version they have learned a special form of magic that trades easy access to cosmic secrets at a low level for flexibility. In this version they become the only people able to cast Temporal spells before being level 10. By strictly enforcing the rule about who can learn temporal spells the class becomes highly desirable as very few games get to the 10th level... meaning that if players want to use temporal magic at all they have to play one of the few classes that gets those spells in their basic allotment.

[Shark_Force]

pretty sure mystics (and similar) cannot teach their magic.

so if anyone else is ever going to learn temporal magic, it needs to be a form of magic that is taught, not gained intuitively.

[Dr. Doom III]

The Temporal classes are not Mystics or any class specifically mentioned that cannot learn spells beyond those learned per level therefore they can learn spells at any time.
Simple as that. Anything else is a house rule.

[eliakon]

pretty sure mystics (and similar) cannot teach their magic.

so if anyone else is ever going to learn temporal magic, it needs to be a form of magic that is taught, not gained intuitively.

There is nothing to say that a Mystic can not teach their spell, just that they can not learn other spells.
After all, they do know the spell formula, so by the rules there is nothing preventing them from teaching the spells.
Now it is possible to make a house rule baring such teaching...
...but it is not a rule that exists in print.

[eliakon]

The Temporal classes are not Mystics or any class specifically mentioned that cannot learn spells beyond those learned per level therefore they can learn spells at any time.
Simple as that. Anything else is a house rule.

Again your "simple as that" is the house rule.
Really it is.
This is because there is no rule, anywhere in the books that states that mages can be taught spells.
No really, there isn't a rule that says you are allowed to be taught spells.
The only way we know that some classes can be taught spells is that those classes, specifically state in the OCC that they can buy spells at any time.
If you feel I am wrong feel free to provide the book and page number where it states that mages have the ability to be taught spells as a general rule and not just as an OCC ability.

I know that a lot of people have been playing with common house rules (such as the ability to learn spells being a universal feature for most mages) for so many years that they think that they are the official ones...
...but they aren't actually the rules published in any book. Which, by definition makes them house rules.

I will note that so far no one has been able to point to any text in any book outside specific OCC abilities that says that as a general rule non-mystic magic users can be taught spells.

And please note that the discussion on the ability to know and cast spells higher than your class level is not proof of the ability to be taught spells.
I make this point because other than the mystic basically all still fit all the criteria of "Can learn and cast spells above their own level" since they start with (learned) and can cast spells that are higher than their class level. Seriously. I would like someone to show a non-mystic/non-intuitive/non-granted class aka a "scholastic magic user" so to speak that does NOT start with a level 2 or higher spell in its basic spell list.
I'll wait

[Curbludgeon]

Life Force Wizards start with unleveled spells only.

[The Beast]

The Temporal classes are not Mystics or any class specifically mentioned that cannot learn spells beyond those learned per level therefore they can learn spells at any time.
Simple as that. Anything else is a house rule.

Again your "simple as that" is the house rule.
Really it is.
This is because there is no rule, anywhere in the books that states that mages can be taught spells.
No really, there isn't a rule that says you are allowed to be taught spells.
The only way we know that some classes can be taught spells is that those classes, specifically state in the OCC that they can buy spells at any time.
If you feel I am wrong feel free to provide the book and page number where it states that mages have the ability to be taught spells as a general rule and not just as an OCC ability.

I know that a lot of people have been playing with common house rules (such as the ability to learn spells being a universal feature for most mages) for so many years that they think that they are the official ones...
...but they aren't actually the rules published in any book. Which, by definition makes them house rules.

I will note that so far no one has been able to point to any text in any book outside specific OCC abilities that says that as a general rule non-mystic magic users can be taught spells.

And please note that the discussion on the ability to know and cast spells higher than your class level is not proof of the ability to be taught spells.
I make this point because other than the mystic basically all still fit all the criteria of "Can learn and cast spells above their own level" since they start with (learned) and can cast spells that are higher than their class level. Seriously. I would like someone to show a non-mystic/non-intuitive/non-granted class aka a "scholastic magic user" so to speak that does NOT start with a level 2 or higher spell in its basic spell list.
I'll wait

Mysteries of Magic 1, page 17 has the following in the last paragraph (underlined is my emphasis):

...However, it is only with proper training, focus and knowledge, that one can use magic to its full potential. This requires finding a teacher. That teacher is usually a mage or magic guild who agrees to take on the individual as an apprentice and teach him (or her, though 80% of spell casters are male) one of the magical sciences...

That paragraph goes on to mention the word "teach" or some variation thereof an additional four times. It also mentions the words study, college, school, tutelage, and training (twice more).

Edit: Please note that this isn't the only page that talks about would-be mages learning their craft. This was just the first one I turned to.

Second edit: Also in Through the Glass Darkly on page 37 it talks about mages learning spells from mentors or grimoires, buying tuition from guilds, or being taught by friends.

[Axelmania]

This seems to boil down as to whether teaching/learning is an opt-in system (all OCCs must specify if you can teach/learn) or an opt-out system (all OCCs must specify if you can't teach/learn).

[The Beast]

For the reasons Tetsuya pointed out earlier, I'm inclined to say the latter.

[eliakon]

The Temporal classes are not Mystics or any class specifically mentioned that cannot learn spells beyond those learned per level therefore they can learn spells at any time.
Simple as that. Anything else is a house rule.

Again your "simple as that" is the house rule.
Really it is.
This is because there is no rule, anywhere in the books that states that mages can be taught spells.
No really, there isn't a rule that says you are allowed to be taught spells.
The only way we know that some classes can be taught spells is that those classes, specifically state in the OCC that they can buy spells at any time.
If you feel I am wrong feel free to provide the book and page number where it states that mages have the ability to be taught spells as a general rule and not just as an OCC ability.

I know that a lot of people have been playing with common house rules (such as the ability to learn spells being a universal feature for most mages) for so many years that they think that they are the official ones...
...but they aren't actually the rules published in any book. Which, by definition makes them house rules.

I will note that so far no one has been able to point to any text in any book outside specific OCC abilities that says that as a general rule non-mystic magic users can be taught spells.

And please note that the discussion on the ability to know and cast spells higher than your class level is not proof of the ability to be taught spells.
I make this point because other than the mystic basically all still fit all the criteria of "Can learn and cast spells above their own level" since they start with (learned) and can cast spells that are higher than their class level. Seriously. I would like someone to show a non-mystic/non-intuitive/non-granted class aka a "scholastic magic user" so to speak that does NOT start with a level 2 or higher spell in its basic spell list.
I'll wait

Mysteries of Magic 1, page 17 has the following in the last paragraph (underlined is my emphasis):

...However, it is only with proper training, focus and knowledge, that one can use magic to its full potential. This requires finding a teacher. That teacher is usually a mage or magic guild who agrees to take on the individual as an apprentice and teach him (or her, though 80% of spell casters are male) one of the magical sciences...

That paragraph goes on to mention the word "teach" or some variation thereof an additional four times. It also mentions the words study, college, school, tutelage, and training (twice more).

Edit: Please note that this isn't the only page that talks about would-be mages learning their craft. This was just the first one I turned to.

Second edit: Also in Through the Glass Darkly on page 37 it talks about mages learning spells from mentors or grimoires, buying tuition from guilds, or being taught by friends.

Again this proves nothing.
Because we know that there are multiple forms of taught magic OCCs that can not buy spells.
Ergo this simply proves that you learned how to perform magic, not that you can buy spells at any time.


Again people some text that says you can be taught spells
Not that you can cast a spell higher level than your class level
Not that you can be taught how to be a magic user
But that the ability to be taught spells is a right not a privilege.

[Axelmania]

If we operate under the assumption that you cannot cast spells higher than your level by default, then a LLW starting off with level 2-4 spells is sort of pointless. If they are opted-in by some sort of text absent in other OCCs which cannot cast higher-than-own-level spells, what is it?

[eliakon]

If we operate under the assumption that you cannot cast spells higher than your level by default, then a LLW starting off with level 2-4 spells is sort of pointless. If they are opted-in by some sort of text absent in other OCCs which cannot cast higher-than-own-level spells, what is it?

*sigh*
There isn't any such assumption.
That is the ENTIRE POINT OF THE SECTION.
It specifically states that you can learn and cast spells higher than your level.
AND
It sets this as the default state for magic users in Palladium.
This is rather important because THAT IS NOT A UNIVERSAL RULE ACROSS ALL GAME SYSTEMS.
That is why it was put in the books, and why it is stated so clearly. So there is no confusion and no one thinks that Pallidum is like ohhhh D&D (you know the Other Big System at the time Palladium was published, and was the system that Palladium evolved out of...) where you must be this high to ride the pony achieve certain level thresholds to cast certain spells.
Seriously people, that is all that the text is telling us.
It tells us that in Palladium a level 1 mage can learn and cast a level 15 spell assuming that their OCC doesn't otherwise spesificly restrict them from doing so.
It's really not that hard.

The Section is about what level of spells a mage can cast.
It is not about if they can be taught spells
It is not about if they can teach spells
It is not about the airspeed velocities of unladen swallows in flight.
It is about what it talks about. No more, no less.
And that is that you can learn and cast spells with a spell level higher than your class level.

[Axelmania]

Just to clarify of the 3 sections mentioned so far in the thread...
*NBWB3:TTGD37
*MOM1:HOM17
*RUE190

I assume we're referring to the last one? I can see a problem with taking Step 8's "except for the Mystic" as intended to apply to the entire genre, when it may simply be referring to the main book OCCs.

This is, after all, basically just a cut and paste from RMB164, including the example of the level 2 ley line walker casting a 10th level spell.

It may simply be referring to the LLW/Shifter/TW. I'm pretty sure that's what "Unlike the other magic O.C.C.s, the mystic can not be taught nor purchase additional spell knowledge" was intended to mean too. There's no indication that Warlocks, for example, despite being a magic OCC added in CB1, can purchase (or be taught) spells either.

We know even mystics can "cast" spells above their experience level (though perhaps not "far" above, the example given is 8 levels higher while Mystics only start with level 3 spells at 1st level) so "learn" may be the key part.

Even if all teaching results in learning, all learning may not result from teaching either. Mystics are described as "learning new spells" (RUE119 retains this from RMB86) so I think RMB164/RUE190 might be emphasizing the "far above" aspect rather than the "learn" aspect.

[HWalsh]

Here is the ultimate situation:

The Temporal Wizard was created before RUE. Pre-RUE every class that could purchase spells was explicitly called out as being able to do so. The Temporal Wizard does not do this.

The RUE text does not apply to the Temporal Wizard as it is not an RUE OCC.

Assuming the words "Taught" and "Learn" are game rule statements when they are part of flavor text is folly.

If we go strictly by RAW then the answer on the Temporal Wizard is no.

It ultimately is the GM's call.

[The Beast]

Here is the ultimate situation:

The Temporal Wizard was created before RUE. Pre-RUE every class that could purchase spells was explicitly called out as being able to do so. The Temporal Wizard does not do this.

The RUE text does not apply to the Temporal Wizard as it is not an RUE OCC.

Assuming the words "Taught" and "Learn" are game rule statements when they are part of flavor text is folly.

If we go strictly by RAW then the answer on the Temporal Wizard is no.

It ultimately is the GM's call.

And pre-RUE every class that couldn't purchase new spells were called out as not being able to do so as well. The Temporal Wizard/Warrior don't do this either.

[Curbludgeon]

Far from penultimately, exactly which books are post-RUE? Just going by publication date. it would be WB26+(with an argument for including 16), DB10+, and the Sourcebooks Black Market, Heroes of Humanity, Mercenary Adventures, Shemarrian Nation, Vampire Sourcebook, and SB1Revised. (Merc Ops and Merc Town likely count too, but I don't know the month of RUE's first printing.

I don't find it folly to consider the ramifications of considering the word teach to have a specific meaning in this ruleset with respect to spell acquisition, even if flavor text uses the word more casually. I'm still hoping to find or hear of an example where a caster that cannot be taught spells (whether they learn or are granted them) teaches a spell to another.

Three edge cases come to mind. A Chaos Wizard may be taught a spell by a Blue Zone Wizard, yet gains spells intuitively by leveling. Most teachable spell casting O.C.C.s are described as "figuring out" a spell when leveling. Given the setting, how most Chaos Wizards are children, and how Chaos Magic is lost before the PA calendar, I think the class is meant to really straddle the line between Mystics and teachable casters.

Cloud Magic is an imparted magic that can only be gained through ritual. The mentions of teaching in the BoM flavor text use teaching in the sense that a Mystic might, such as learning meditative practices and philosophy. For non L-S to gain access to the magic they have to not know any other spells, and cannot gain them afterward. The Vanguard Savant is described as being able to learn Cloud Magic spells, but that's not in keeping with any other description of the magic, and I'd argue that's just integrated marketing from KeSie, similar to how the A.I. at New Camelot has tattoo and stone magic.

In addition to seeing an example of a Mystic teaching a spell to a LLW, I'd be interested in seeing an example of a caster of taught spells that also has access to spells from their species being able to teach those spells. Is there an instance written down of a Jungle Elf LLW teaching a Biomancy spell?

[Daniel Stoker]

And pre-RUE every class that couldn't purchase new spells were called out as not being able to do so as well. The Temporal Wizard/Warrior don't do this either.

All the classes describe how the character could learn spells, Shifters, Ley Line Walkers, TW's could buy etc, while Mystics couldn't. England when it talks about their spell learning ability at the end of section one repeats the phrase, "The character can learn one new temporal magic spell and one new conventional spell for each additional level of expereience; player's choice." for each initiation block, and for the warrior it pretty much says the same thing, "The character can learn one new conventional spell (select from levels 1-4 only) or one new temporal magic spell every other level of experience' player's choice." Based on that and the system at the time I'd still say it sounds like that's what they're limited to for learning new spells based on the 'original' rules.


Daniel Stoker

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Here is the ultimate situation:

The Temporal Wizard was created before RUE. Pre-RUE every class that could purchase spells was explicitly called out as being able to do so. The Temporal Wizard does not do this.

The RUE text does not apply to the Temporal Wizard as it is not an RUE OCC.

This is patently absurd. You cannot sort through the books and tell players "oh, yeah, to use this book, you have to have an out-of-print, no-longer-for-sale, and superceded rulebook". The core rulebook is the core rulebook.

IF anything changed between RUE and RMB, it can only be interpreted as a deliberate change; the new rules now apply, no matter what the old ones said. Full stop. By the way... they didn't change.

Practitioners of Magic, except for the Mystic, can learn and cast spells far above their actual experience level.

Practitioners of Magic, except for the Mystic, can learn and cast spells far above their actual experience level

Same. Exact. Rule.

Are Temporal Warriors or Wizards mystics?

No.

Then they can learn spells.

Assuming the words "Taught" and "Learn" are game rule statements when they are part of flavor text is folly.

If we go strictly by RAW then the answer on the Temporal Wizard is no.

It ultimately is the GM's call.

If you go strictly by RAW, then the answer is yes. I swear to god, the amount of nitpicking and "well technically because of this transverse verb and anecdote..." crap that goes on around here to try to subvert the intent of the rules is staggering.

The intent of the rule is clear. Non-mystics who do not belong to a specialist class that denies them access to other spells (like Warlock), can learn spells at any time.

And pre-RUE every class that couldn't purchase new spells were called out as not being able to do so as well. The Temporal Wizard/Warrior don't do this either.

All the classes describe how the character could learn spells, Shifters, Ley Line Walkers, TW's could buy etc, while Mystics couldn't. England when it talks about their spell learning ability at the end of section one repeats the phrase, "The character can learn one new temporal magic spell and one new conventional spell for each additional level of expereience; player's choice." for each initiation block, and for the warrior it pretty much says the same thing, "The character can learn one new conventional spell (select from levels 1-4 only) or one new temporal magic spell every other level of experience' player's choice." Based on that and the system at the time I'd still say it sounds like that's what they're limited to for learning new spells based on the 'original' rules.


Daniel Stoker

Then you're outright saying that you believe Kevin is a monumentally stupid person who wrote a general rule fully intending to never implement another magic OCC ever again. Which is just absurd on its face.

Again, it's not complicated:

Are you a mystic? Then you cant learn spells at any time.
Are you a specialist OCC that is denied more spells by your OCC? Then you cant learn spells at any time.
If the answer to the two above questions is "no", then you CAN learn spells at any time.

Also, not that it matters because NPCs, strictly speaking, dont have to obey character creation rules, there are several Temporal Magic NPCs that have FAR more spells than they could have if they were limited to two spells per level (1 Temporal, 1 Normal). But that tends to reinforce the intent of the rule: Non-mystic, non-specialist OCCs can learn spells at any time.

[Daniel Stoker]

Then you're outright saying that you believe Kevin is a monumentally stupid person who wrote a general rule fully intending to never implement another magic OCC ever again. Which is just absurd on its face.

Again, it's not complicated:

Are you a mystic? Then you cant learn spells at any time.
Are you a specialist OCC that is denied more spells by your OCC? Then you cant learn spells at any time.
If the answer to the two above questions is "no", then you CAN learn spells at any time.

Also, not that it matters because NPCs, strictly speaking, dont have to obey character creation rules, there are several Temporal Magic NPCs that have FAR more spells than they could have if they were limited to two spells per level (1 Temporal, 1 Normal). But that tends to reinforce the intent of the rule: Non-mystic, non-specialist OCCs can learn spells at any time.

Why in the world would I think that?

Also isn't a Temporal Wizard and Warrior a specialist who's class only lists one way they get new spells which is by level?


Daniel Stoker