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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:46 pm
  

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Knight

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Eashamahel wrote:
Really?

RMB, Pg. 256

"A Typical Coalition Grunt"
-"Combat: Expert: Two attacks per melee,"

"A Typical Coalition SAMAS"
-"Combat: Expert plus Elite Power Armor Combat training: 4 total attacks per melee,"

"a Typical High-Tech Bandit"
-"Combat: Expert: 2 attacks per melee,"


The entire first book is full of examples of combats or stats, and none of them include the extra 2 attacks that get introduced later. They didn't exist at the time. They clearly didn't exist when Mindwerks was published, as your NPC shows. Power Armour and Robot Vehichle pilots are constantly showing this.

RMB, Pg 39, under 'Determining the Number of Attacks Per Melee and Combat Bonuses"
-"Players will find two skills that exclusively determine the pilot's number of attacks when piloting a high tech robot or power armour: 1)The pilot's normal, hand to hand combat skill, and 2) The pilot's Robot Combat skill. Simply combine the number of attacks gained from each skill. The total number indicates the total attacks per melee possible. Most first level pilots, with both skills, will have a total of FOUR attacks per melee."

The game didn't start out with '+2 attacks to everything for no reason', it was added in later, haphazardly.




Also, consider this for a second:

'Your character gets to attack a certain number of times every melee, determined by his attacks/melee. He can punch or swing a sword once per melee for every attack he has, but he can only shoot a bow and arrow a specific number of times as it works differently than punching and has it's own rate of fire. But he can shoot a gun as often as he can swing a sword, but NOT as often as he can punch (despite them being the same above), because the Physical Skill 'Boxing', which adds an attack to your character, is different to the Physical Skill 'Hand to Hand:X', which adds attacks to your character, because the Hand to Hand Physical Skills are Hand to Hand skills, whereas the Boxing Physical skill is not a hand to hand skill, it only applies in Hand to Hand combat since it's the Boxing skill, but it does let you swing a Sword more often!'


Oh my Gork, this cannot be serious...

From the Game FAQ, here's the same question asked THREE TIMES and three TOTALLY different answers are given. In the same FAQ. PLEASE tell me the FAQ on this forum isn't the one being talked about in this thread?



"Question: I´ve got a few questions regarding RUE:
How does a called shot during HTH combat (not ranged combat) work . Can´t find it.
Answer: Works the same."

"Question: What rules are used for making called shots in HtH?
Answer: There are none. Called Shot is specific to ranged combat. "

"Question: How do Called Shots work in hand-to-hand combat? In the ranged combat rules, you can aim for an opponent's least armored/most vulnerable areas, at the cost of having a higher number to beat with your strike roll. This makes sense when you're trying to hit a one-inch target at 50 yards, but not when you're face-to-face and sword-to-sword with the enemy.
Answer: There is an example of melee "called shots" on page 33 of Rifts Vampire Kingdoms: on the subject of staking a vampire in the heart in melee combat, it says "The only condition is that the combatant must state that he is 'trying to pierce the heart' before he strikes." It then goes on to distinguish that in order to do the same thing with a ranged weapon you need to make a Called Shot as usual, clearly showing that it's not the same thing.
So essentially, in melee combat, all you have to do is designate where you intend to strike and roll as normal; no penalties, no different numbers to hit, no extra attacks needed, just call it and hit it.'

It was always there it just for some reason was not always applied. As I quoted the two attacks are in the same book that you pointed out was not applied in.

Please read the reminder under physical attacks per mellee on page 37. But you are right they where inconstiant in the same book. So they did exist but even PB was confused on them, so why should I think anything on number of attacks is clear as mud?

What your quote does is remove the 2 for being alive and boxing from beeing used in PA using instead the 2 for PA in place of it. Note the 2 attacks from beeeing alive are in the general combat section and you pulled a quote from High tech war machines a difrent combat section.
Your rule quote does not over ride the genral combat rule but places PA in a special catagory and because exclusively 2 skills determine action and boxing is not on the list then boxing is not ment to be used to give attacks in PA.

But you are right a rule on page 37 did not exist when the rest of the book was writen.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:47 pm
  

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Priest

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Blue_Lion wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Rimmerdal wrote:
Kagashi wrote:
I find it hard to believe that one FAQ, written by some random dude, is superseded by EVERY Palladium core book in every game previously printed, or currently printed, and all support one another with the same logic.

Plus, no NPC says, "Attacks: 5 plus one with fists due to boxing". They just say "Attacks: 6"


Kag, common sense today is not so common.

But back to the thread. I'll go with the Melee attacks do include firearms.

Hear is the thing attacks per mellee round have not always been aplied consitently to NPCs In the early days some times they did not get the two for being alive. Not shure how many NPCs have boxing to use as a refrence maybe some one should look it up a direct quote.


In the early days, there weren't any two attacks for being alive.

Acutaly there was. Page 37 of the ogirnal rifts book.
Clearly states that you get two attacks for both PC and NPC in aditon to those gained from hand to hand.


Correct.
Now think about the word "gained" for a bit.
"Gained" does not mean "starts off with." It means "something you get later."
As in, "You get two attacks to start off (because we're assuming that you're not starting with HTH Assassin, because that's for evil people), and you GAIN more attacks through boxing (when you take the skill) or from your HTH skill as you increase in level.

That's why the HTH skills all say stuff like, "2 attacks to start" at level one, NOT "+2 attacks to start."
The two attacks that you get from first level of your HTH skill are the exact same 2 attacks that the passage you quote is referring to.

Here's a breakdown I did a while back:
viewtopic.php?p=2670321#p2670321
Killer Cyborg wrote:
kaid wrote:
I know it was like that in rifts when it first came out


No, it was not.

Here's how I broke it down in a previous post on the subject:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Preacher wrote:
The statement that has been quoted several times now is a pretty straight forward and clear statement. All players automatically start with two attacks. How does that not come across clearly to you and why?
Additonal attacks are gained from Hand to Hand skills and boxing. Again how is it you or anyone can say it has not been there since day one in Rifts?

I have first printings of the RMB & Conversion Book and there it is.

HOW do you misintrepret "ALL PLAYERS START WITH 2 ATTACKS?" Main Book first printing 1990. Where is the room for error? All Players? Start? With 2 Attacks?

I honestly do not see how you can misunderstand that? :frust: :frust:


I'll explain.

First of all, the statement itself is likely a mistake. For one thing, it's in the psychic combat section; NOT the normal combat section.
For another, it is directly contradicted on p. 28 under the physical skills section, in the description of hand to hand skills.
"Characters without combat training have one hand to hand attack per melee at levels one and two, but get a second attack at level three and a third attack at level nine."

Also, under the HTH skill descriptions (p. 37), HTH Basic says "Two attacks per melee" at level one. Not "+2 attacks per melee," like it says everywhere else that bonus attacks are described just "Two attacks per melee."

And on the same page, HTH Expert and Martial Arts both say; "Two attacke per melee to start."
I don't see how that's unclear. A first level character with HTH Expert/MA gets Two Attacks Per Melee to start.... NOT two bonus attacks, not +2 attacks, just two attacks per melee to start.
This is clearly describing a base number of attacks.

Furthermore, the writers themselves (Meaning KS) never use the TAFL (Two Attacks For Living) in the Rifts book.

p. 39, under "Determining the Number of Attacks Per Melee and Combat Bonuses"
"This is how it works. Players will find two skills that exclusively determine the pilot's number of attacks when piloting a high-tech robot or power armor:
1) The pilot's normal, hand to hand combat skill, and 2) The pilot's Robot Combat skill. Simply combine the number of attacks gained from each skill. The total number indicates the total attacks per melee possible."

No mention of any free two attacks for living.
Only two factors; HTH skill, and Robot Combat skill.

Furthermore, "Most first level pilots, with both skills, will have a total of four attacks per melee."
That's 4 attacks; two from HTH skill, and two from Robot/PA combat skill.
NOT 6 attacks, which is what would be common if KS was using the TAFL.

p. 40 (discussing characters with Pilot: Robots & Power Armor skill, but no Robot Combat skill)
"A first level character will usuall have two attacks per melee."
"If a pilot does not have hand to hand combat training, he or she is limited to one attack per melee and NO special bonuses."

p. 40
"For Example: A character piloting a Coalition Urban Assault bot (Enforcer UAR-1) has five attacks per melee."
Why 5?
If KS was using TAFL, then he'd have at least 6 attacks; 2 for living, 2 from HTH, and 2 from Robot Combat.

p. 42-44
"An Example of Combat"
Portrays a battle between a UAR-1 and some bandits.
The UAR-1 has 5 attacks. The rebel SAMAS pilot only has 4.
If KS was using TAFL, then the UAR-1 would have 6+ attacks, and so would the SAMAS (unless he had no robot combat skill, in which case he'd only have 1-2 attacks according to the rules cited above).

p. 249
Animalistic supernatural predators have 1d4 attacks per melee.
This makes sense if the average is assumed to be 2-3 attacks per melee... the animals might be a bit slower or a bit faster than the normal human. At worst, they'd be just as slow as an untrained human (1 attack).
It does NOT make sense if the average number of attacks for a human is 4-5... that would mean that even an untrained human would be twice as fast as 25% of the supernatural predators, and that the fastest supernatural predators would only be as fast as a normal 1st level human with HTH: Basic.

p. 251
Intelligent Supernatural Monsters also get only 1d4 attacks per melee.
So ditto all the above for predators, only more-so.

p. 256
A Typical Coalition Grunt is first level, has HTH: Expert, and has 2 attacks per melee.
A Typical Coalition SAMAS has HTH Expet + Elite Power Armor Combat for a total of 4 attacks per melee.
A Typical High-Tech Bandit has HTH: Expert and 2 attacks per melee.

So if you have any explanation for how KS meant to include the TAFL in the main book, but neglected to ever use it or mention it outside of that one passage under psychic combat, and somehow neglected to edit out all the rules contradicting the TAFL... let's hear it!

Personally, I don't think he's that incompetent.
I can buy him making a single mistake in the psychic combat section more easily than I can buy him making 8+ mistakes spread out all through the book.


The statements in the RMB that are along the lines of "all player characters start with two attacks" are based on an assumption that all PCs are going to have HTH combat skills, and that their HTH combat skill is NOT going to be Assassin (as Assassin is reserved for Evil characters, and there is an assumption that PCs won't be Evil).
The references to gaining attacks from HTH combat skills are referring to the fact that characters with HTH skills gained attacks as they leveled up, NOT to stacking the base attacks from the forms to a mythical 2 attacks that "everybody" always gets.

Now, some people usually pop up to claim that the TAFL was intended for PCs only, and that's why NPCs don't have them.
But that still skips over the references to the average PC having only 2 attacks at first level (or 4 attacks if they're robot pilots), and it ignores the sentence from Rifts, p. 37
(Right after the mention that all PCs get two attacks to start):
"A typical non-player character gets only two attacks per melee plus hand to hand combat and/or boxing skill additions."
That's the same description of attacks as when it describes PCs.
NPCs and PCs work the same way when it comes to determining attacks per melee.


Here's another recounting that I did.
There's some overlap with the other recounting, but there's some additional references as well:
Quote:
Vrykolas2k wrote:
Two attacks for living are in the core rules...


1. No, they weren't.
2. If they were, then please enlighten me on the following things:
p. 35:
"Characters without combat training have only one attack per melee and have no automatic parry."

p. 37 Under Hand to Hand: Expert and Martial Arts
"Level 1 Two attacks per melee to start"
Under HTH: Assassin
"one attack per melee"
Any time a character gets bonus attacks, they are listed as "+1 Attack(s)." Never as just "x attacks per melee" and definitely not "x attacks to start."

p. 39 under "Determinign the Number of Attacks per Melee and Combat Bonuses"
"Players will find two skills that exclusively determine the pilot's number of attacks when piloting a high-tech robot or power armor: 1) The pilot's normal, hand to hand comabt skill, and 2) The pilot's Robot Combat skill. Simply combine the number of attacks gained from each skill. the total number indicates the total attacks per melee possible. Most first level pilots, with both skills, will have a total of FOUR attacks per melee."

p. 40
"For Example: A character piloting a Coalition Urban Assault bot (Enforcer UAR-1) has five attacks per melee."
This can make sense if the pilot has 2 attacks from his HTH skill, one attack from boxing, and two from his Robot Combat skill.

Also on p. 40 (emphasis added):
"For example: A Coalition Urban Assault Bot is up against four bandit robots. The pilot decides to launch four of his missiles at one enemy. That's one attack, leaving three more that melee. He can not fire the four missiles simultaneously at all four of the enemy. To strike all four, the pilot must fire at each individual target seperately. However, this will take up all four of the pilot's attacks that melee."
Again, this only makes sense if he has 2 attacks from HTH and 2 attacks from Robot Combat.
No 2 attacks for living.

p. 42-44 "An Example of Combat"
The SAMAS pilots only have 4 attacks each, and the UAR-1 Enforcer pilot only has 5 attacks each. Again, no Two Attacks For Living (TAFL, for short).

p. 194 SAMAS armor.
The C-40R has an ROF of "Equal to number of combined hand to hand attacks (usually 4-6)."
2 for HTH, 2 for Robot Combat Elite, and another 1 or two from boxing and/or high level.
If you include the TAFL, then the minimum number of attacks for a CS SAMAS Pilot would be 6.

p. 196 The UAR-1 Enforcer
The C-50R rail gun has an ROF of "Equal to number of combined hand to hand attacks (usually 4-6)."
2 for HTH, 2 for Robot Combat Elite, and another 1 or two from boxing and/or high level.
If you include the TAFL, then the minimum number of attacks for a CS Enforcer Pilot would be 6.

p. 198 The Spider-Skull Walker
The C-100R rail guns has an ROF of "Equal to number of combined hand to hand attacks (usually 4-6)."
2 for HTH, 2 for Robot Combat Elite, and another 1 or two from boxing and/or high level.
If you include the TAFL, then the minimum number of attacks for a CS Skull-Walker Pilot would be 6.

The CR-4T Laser Turrets have an ROF of "Equal to number of combined hand to hand attacks (usually 4-6)."
2 for HTH, 2 for Robot Combat Elite, and another 1 or two from boxing and/or high level.
If you include the TAFL, then the minimum number of attacks for a CS Skull-Walker Pilot would be 6.

p. 223 The Glitter Boy
The Boom Gun has an ROF of "Equal to number of combined hand to hand attacks (usually 4-6)."
2 for HTH, 2 for Robot Combat Elite, and another 1 or two from boxing and/or high level.
If you include the TAFL, then the minimum number of attacks for a Glitter Boyr Pilot would be 6.

p. 249
A randomly rolled Animalistic Predator only has 1d4 attacks.
If the PCs have the TAFL, then this means that the very fastest of these wupernatural predators will be only as fast as a low-end level 1 character.

P. 251
The Intelligent Supernatural Monsters have the same number of attacks; 1d4.

p. 256
-The Typical CS Grunt has HTH Expert and only 2 attacks per melee. No TAFL.
-The Typical CS SAMAS has HTH Expert + Elite Power Armor Combat training for a total of 4 attacks per melee.
No TAFL.
-All listed dinosaurs have 2 attacks per melee. If PCs had TAFL, then a first level scholar with HTH basic would be twice as fast as any dinosaur.
-A Typical High Tech Bandit or Headhunter has HTH: Expert and has 2 attacks per melee.
No TAFL.


Edit:
And here's ANOTHER old post where I address the issue:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
When I went to Gen-Con and talked to Kevin Siembieda, I asked him about it.
He said that they were an addition to the rules, made after the first few books were released. He's a boxing fan, and he noticed that people can get of a LOT more than 2 attacks per 15 seconds of melee. So he changed the rules.

I ran the idea by him that PCs got more attacks than NPCs, and he said No.

After I got home from Gen-Con, I looked through the copy of CB1 Revised that I bought there. Guess what I found...

CB1R, p. 12-13
"Characters with no hand to hand combat traingin get one attack/action per melee round at levels 1, 6, and 12...."
"Note: It is rare for most characters not to have at least the Hand to Hand: Basic combat skill, but civilian NPCs like a child, high school student, housewife, white collar worker, or game designer, are probably only going to have one or two attacks per round..."

Which explains a bit of the reasoning going on in assuming that all PCs get 2 attacks per melee. It is assuming that they're going to have at least HTH Basic (and apparently forgets HTH Assassin, or assumes that PCs are going to be Good aligned).

More importantly, and I apparantly cannot emphasize this enough:
"Characters with any kind of formal hand to hand combat training (HTH Basic, Expert, Assassin, etc. automatically starts with two attacks per melee, in addition to those provided from their actual hand to hand combat skill. That means a first level character typically starts with FOUR attacks per melee round- two to begin and two from a specific Hand to Hand skill. Game Designer Note: This was not originally the case when I first designed the game system. Back then the character only got the number of attacks provided by the Hand to Hand skill (2), plus those gained from experience in that skill and any possible O.C.C. bonus. A lot of people seem to prefer fewer attacks per round tha more. That's okay. If that's what you like, start with only two from Hand to Hand skills and forget about the other two. Role-Playing is flexible, go with what you, as GM, feel most comfortable with. I only increased the starting number (four instead of two) because it seemed more realistic for characters who are trained in combat (including adventurers who need to know how to handle themselves in the wild)."

So not only do I have it from KS himself, I have it in writing, in canon text.
The TAFL were NOT originally in Rifts.
They were added in later.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:21 pm
  

Hero

Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:49 am
Posts: 1227
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Blue_Lion wrote:
It was always there it just for some reason was not always applied. As I quoted the two attacks are in the same book that you pointed out was not applied in.


It was NEVER applied. Not 'not always', it is NEVER applied, in either any of the SEVERAL examples in the rulebook, or in any of the early world books. And the 'two attacks' you quoted aren't as clear as you seem to think, and not just to most players at the time, but also to the writers.

Blue_Lion wrote:
Please read the reminder under physical attacks per mellee on page 37. But you are right they where inconstiant in the same book.


They were VERY consistent. Every example is the same, from the examples of combat, to the average NPCs.

Blue_Lion wrote:
So they did exist but even PB was confused on them,


Wait, so a rule existed, but it was never used, and the writers were confused on it? Was it discovered in some scientific experiment? Was the book written by some mysterious stranger and only later understood?


Also, you didn't respond to the bottom part of the quote I posted, the one where the SAME FAQ in the SAME section gives three TOTALLY different answers to the SAME question. Is that FAQ (the one on this forum) the FAQ we are talking about? Because if that's the one, I'm not seeing any point to continuing this conversation, as it's clearly just TERRIBLE, self contradictory, and not well thought out.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:56 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 5742
Location: Clone Lab 27
Eashamahel wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
It was always there it just for some reason was not always applied. As I quoted the two attacks are in the same book that you pointed out was not applied in.


It was NEVER applied. Not 'not always', it is NEVER applied, in either any of the SEVERAL examples in the rulebook, or in any of the early world books. And the 'two attacks' you quoted aren't as clear as you seem to think, and not just to most players at the time, but also to the writers.

Blue_Lion wrote:
Please read the reminder under physical attacks per mellee on page 37. But you are right they where inconstiant in the same book.


They were VERY consistent. Every example is the same, from the examples of combat, to the average NPCs.

Blue_Lion wrote:
So they did exist but even PB was confused on them,


Wait, so a rule existed, but it was never used, and the writers were confused on it? Was it discovered in some scientific experiment? Was the book written by some mysterious stranger and only later understood?


Also, you didn't respond to the bottom part of the quote I posted, the one where the SAME FAQ in the SAME section gives three TOTALLY different answers to the SAME question. Is that FAQ (the one on this forum) the FAQ we are talking about? Because if that's the one, I'm not seeing any point to continuing this conversation, as it's clearly just TERRIBLE, self contradictory, and not well thought out.

The only thing you proved is they were beeing inconstent in the aplication of number of attacks in the same book that they wrote the rules in.

The rule existed because it was in the book. Later on before R:ue they started adding in the attack to NPC stats but in the begining it was over looked.
PG 44 Rifts GMG.
In the Rpg (that is the name of the orginal book) and other books,it states that a charter has two attacks per melee to start. However this does not include the two attacks per round any charter with hand to hand training is suppose to start with. yeah, we know that is confusing, that's why we post these combat lists that the charter with four.

So they stated there was a problem with how the rule were fallowed. And as you pointed out they where the primary example of the rules breaker. If the game desiners can not be constent with the rules they right that means there is a problem.

I did not adress the FaQ on this forum because I was not using the FaQ on this forum I was using the FaQ on the main page under the tab for on the cutting room floor. It is posted on the same page as errata for books. Why should I adreass a forum when I was using a set of typed FaQ?

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:27 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 5742
Location: Clone Lab 27
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Rimmerdal wrote:
[
Kag, common sense today is not so common.

But back to the thread. I'll go with the Melee attacks do include firearms.

Hear is the thing attacks per mellee round have not always been aplied consitently to NPCs In the early days some times they did not get the two for being alive. Not shure how many NPCs have boxing to use as a refrence maybe some one should look it up a direct quote.


In the early days, there weren't any two attacks for being alive.

Acutaly there was. Page 37 of the ogirnal rifts book.
Clearly states that you get two attacks for both PC and NPC in aditon to those gained from hand to hand.


Correct.
Now think about the word "gained" for a bit.
"Gained" does not mean "starts off with." It means "something you get later."
As in, "You get two attacks to start off (because we're assuming that you're not starting with HTH Assassin, because that's for evil people), and you GAIN more attacks through boxing (when you take the skill) or from your HTH skill as you increase in level.

That's why the HTH skills all say stuff like, "2 attacks to start" at level one, NOT "+2 attacks to start."
The two attacks that you get from first level of your HTH skill are the exact same 2 attacks that the passage you quote is referring to.

Here's a breakdown I did a while back:
viewtopic.php?p=2670321#p2670321
Killer Cyborg wrote:
kaid wrote:
I know it was like that in rifts when it first came out


No, it was not.

Here's how I broke it down in a previous post on the subject:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Preacher wrote:
The statement that has been quoted several times now is a pretty straight forward and clear statement. All players automatically start with two attacks. How does that not come across clearly to you and why?
Additonal attacks are gained from Hand to Hand skills and boxing. Again how is it you or anyone can say it has not been there since day one in Rifts?

I have first printings of the RMB & Conversion Book and there it is.

HOW do you misintrepret "ALL PLAYERS START WITH 2 ATTACKS?" Main Book first printing 1990. Where is the room for error? All Players? Start? With 2 Attacks?

I honestly do not see how you can misunderstand that? :frust: :frust:


I'll explain.

First of all, the statement itself is likely a mistake. For one thing, it's in the psychic combat section; NOT the normal combat section.
For another, it is directly contradicted on p. 28 under the physical skills section, in the description of hand to hand skills.
"Characters without combat training have one hand to hand attack per melee at levels one and two, but get a second attack at level three and a third attack at level nine."

Also, under the HTH skill descriptions (p. 37), HTH Basic says "Two attacks per melee" at level one. Not "+2 attacks per melee," like it says everywhere else that bonus attacks are described just "Two attacks per melee."

And on the same page, HTH Expert and Martial Arts both say; "Two attacke per melee to start."
I don't see how that's unclear. A first level character with HTH Expert/MA gets Two Attacks Per Melee to start.... NOT two bonus attacks, not +2 attacks, just two attacks per melee to start.
This is clearly describing a base number of attacks.

Furthermore, the writers themselves (Meaning KS) never use the TAFL (Two Attacks For Living) in the Rifts book.

p. 39, under "Determining the Number of Attacks Per Melee and Combat Bonuses"
"This is how it works. Players will find two skills that exclusively determine the pilot's number of attacks when piloting a high-tech robot or power armor:
1) The pilot's normal, hand to hand combat skill, and 2) The pilot's Robot Combat skill. Simply combine the number of attacks gained from each skill. The total number indicates the total attacks per melee possible."

No mention of any free two attacks for living.
Only two factors; HTH skill, and Robot Combat skill.

Furthermore, "Most first level pilots, with both skills, will have a total of four attacks per melee."
That's 4 attacks; two from HTH skill, and two from Robot/PA combat skill.
NOT 6 attacks, which is what would be common if KS was using the TAFL.

p. 40 (discussing characters with Pilot: Robots & Power Armor skill, but no Robot Combat skill)
"A first level character will usuall have two attacks per melee."
"If a pilot does not have hand to hand combat training, he or she is limited to one attack per melee and NO special bonuses."

p. 40
"For Example: A character piloting a Coalition Urban Assault bot (Enforcer UAR-1) has five attacks per melee."
Why 5?
If KS was using TAFL, then he'd have at least 6 attacks; 2 for living, 2 from HTH, and 2 from Robot Combat.

p. 42-44
"An Example of Combat"
Portrays a battle between a UAR-1 and some bandits.
The UAR-1 has 5 attacks. The rebel SAMAS pilot only has 4.
If KS was using TAFL, then the UAR-1 would have 6+ attacks, and so would the SAMAS (unless he had no robot combat skill, in which case he'd only have 1-2 attacks according to the rules cited above).

p. 249
Animalistic supernatural predators have 1d4 attacks per melee.
This makes sense if the average is assumed to be 2-3 attacks per melee... the animals might be a bit slower or a bit faster than the normal human. At worst, they'd be just as slow as an untrained human (1 attack).
It does NOT make sense if the average number of attacks for a human is 4-5... that would mean that even an untrained human would be twice as fast as 25% of the supernatural predators, and that the fastest supernatural predators would only be as fast as a normal 1st level human with HTH: Basic.

p. 251
Intelligent Supernatural Monsters also get only 1d4 attacks per melee.
So ditto all the above for predators, only more-so.

p. 256
A Typical Coalition Grunt is first level, has HTH: Expert, and has 2 attacks per melee.
A Typical Coalition SAMAS has HTH Expet + Elite Power Armor Combat for a total of 4 attacks per melee.
A Typical High-Tech Bandit has HTH: Expert and 2 attacks per melee.

So if you have any explanation for how KS meant to include the TAFL in the main book, but neglected to ever use it or mention it outside of that one passage under psychic combat, and somehow neglected to edit out all the rules contradicting the TAFL... let's hear it!

Personally, I don't think he's that incompetent.
I can buy him making a single mistake in the psychic combat section more easily than I can buy him making 8+ mistakes spread out all through the book.


The statements in the RMB that are along the lines of "all player characters start with two attacks" are based on an assumption that all PCs are going to have HTH combat skills, and that their HTH combat skill is NOT going to be Assassin (as Assassin is reserved for Evil characters, and there is an assumption that PCs won't be Evil).
The references to gaining attacks from HTH combat skills are referring to the fact that characters with HTH skills gained attacks as they leveled up, NOT to stacking the base attacks from the forms to a mythical 2 attacks that "everybody" always gets.

Now, some people usually pop up to claim that the TAFL was intended for PCs only, and that's why NPCs don't have them.
But that still skips over the references to the average PC having only 2 attacks at first level (or 4 attacks if they're robot pilots), and it ignores the sentence from Rifts, p. 37
(Right after the mention that all PCs get two attacks to start):
"A typical non-player character gets only two attacks per melee plus hand to hand combat and/or boxing skill additions."
That's the same description of attacks as when it describes PCs.
NPCs and PCs work the same way when it comes to determining attacks per melee.


Here's another recounting that I did.
There's some overlap with the other recounting, but there's some additional references as well:
Quote:
Vrykolas2k wrote:
Two attacks for living are in the core rules...


1. No, they weren't.
2. If they were, then please enlighten me on the following things:
p. 35:
"Characters without combat training have only one attack per melee and have no automatic parry."

p. 37 Under Hand to Hand: Expert and Martial Arts
"Level 1 Two attacks per melee to start"
Under HTH: Assassin
"one attack per melee"
Any time a character gets bonus attacks, they are listed as "+1 Attack(s)." Never as just "x attacks per melee" and definitely not "x attacks to start."

p. 39 under "Determinign the Number of Attacks per Melee and Combat Bonuses"
"Players will find two skills that exclusively determine the pilot's number of attacks when piloting a high-tech robot or power armor: 1) The pilot's normal, hand to hand comabt skill, and 2) The pilot's Robot Combat skill. Simply combine the number of attacks gained from each skill. the total number indicates the total attacks per melee possible. Most first level pilots, with both skills, will have a total of FOUR attacks per melee."

p. 40
"For Example: A character piloting a Coalition Urban Assault bot (Enforcer UAR-1) has five attacks per melee."
This can make sense if the pilot has 2 attacks from his HTH skill, one attack from boxing, and two from his Robot Combat skill.

Also on p. 40 (emphasis added):
"For example: A Coalition Urban Assault Bot is up against four bandit robots. The pilot decides to launch four of his missiles at one enemy. That's one attack, leaving three more that melee. He can not fire the four missiles simultaneously at all four of the enemy. To strike all four, the pilot must fire at each individual target seperately. However, this will take up all four of the pilot's attacks that melee."
Again, this only makes sense if he has 2 attacks from HTH and 2 attacks from Robot Combat.
No 2 attacks for living.

p. 42-44 "An Example of Combat"
The SAMAS pilots only have 4 attacks each, and the UAR-1 Enforcer pilot only has 5 attacks each. Again, no Two Attacks For Living (TAFL, for short).

p. 194 SAMAS armor.
The C-40R has an ROF of "Equal to number of combined hand to hand attacks (usually 4-6)."
2 for HTH, 2 for Robot Combat Elite, and another 1 or two from boxing and/or high level.
If you include the TAFL, then the minimum number of attacks for a CS SAMAS Pilot would be 6.

p. 196 The UAR-1 Enforcer
The C-50R rail gun has an ROF of "Equal to number of combined hand to hand attacks (usually 4-6)."
2 for HTH, 2 for Robot Combat Elite, and another 1 or two from boxing and/or high level.
If you include the TAFL, then the minimum number of attacks for a CS Enforcer Pilot would be 6.

p. 198 The Spider-Skull Walker
The C-100R rail guns has an ROF of "Equal to number of combined hand to hand attacks (usually 4-6)."
2 for HTH, 2 for Robot Combat Elite, and another 1 or two from boxing and/or high level.
If you include the TAFL, then the minimum number of attacks for a CS Skull-Walker Pilot would be 6.

The CR-4T Laser Turrets have an ROF of "Equal to number of combined hand to hand attacks (usually 4-6)."
2 for HTH, 2 for Robot Combat Elite, and another 1 or two from boxing and/or high level.
If you include the TAFL, then the minimum number of attacks for a CS Skull-Walker Pilot would be 6.

p. 223 The Glitter Boy
The Boom Gun has an ROF of "Equal to number of combined hand to hand attacks (usually 4-6)."
2 for HTH, 2 for Robot Combat Elite, and another 1 or two from boxing and/or high level.
If you include the TAFL, then the minimum number of attacks for a Glitter Boyr Pilot would be 6.

p. 249
A randomly rolled Animalistic Predator only has 1d4 attacks.
If the PCs have the TAFL, then this means that the very fastest of these wupernatural predators will be only as fast as a low-end level 1 character.

P. 251
The Intelligent Supernatural Monsters have the same number of attacks; 1d4.

p. 256
-The Typical CS Grunt has HTH Expert and only 2 attacks per melee. No TAFL.
-The Typical CS SAMAS has HTH Expert + Elite Power Armor Combat training for a total of 4 attacks per melee.
No TAFL.
-All listed dinosaurs have 2 attacks per melee. If PCs had TAFL, then a first level scholar with HTH basic would be twice as fast as any dinosaur.
-A Typical High Tech Bandit or Headhunter has HTH: Expert and has 2 attacks per melee.
No TAFL.


Edit:
And here's ANOTHER old post where I address the issue:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
When I went to Gen-Con and talked to Kevin Siembieda, I asked him about it.
He said that they were an addition to the rules, made after the first few books were released. He's a boxing fan, and he noticed that people can get of a LOT more than 2 attacks per 15 seconds of melee. So he changed the rules.

I ran the idea by him that PCs got more attacks than NPCs, and he said No.

After I got home from Gen-Con, I looked through the copy of CB1 Revised that I bought there. Guess what I found...

CB1R, p. 12-13
"Characters with no hand to hand combat traingin get one attack/action per melee round at levels 1, 6, and 12...."
"Note: It is rare for most characters not to have at least the Hand to Hand: Basic combat skill, but civilian NPCs like a child, high school student, housewife, white collar worker, or game designer, are probably only going to have one or two attacks per round..."

Which explains a bit of the reasoning going on in assuming that all PCs get 2 attacks per melee. It is assuming that they're going to have at least HTH Basic (and apparently forgets HTH Assassin, or assumes that PCs are going to be Good aligned).

More importantly, and I apparantly cannot emphasize this enough:
"Characters with any kind of formal hand to hand combat training (HTH Basic, Expert, Assassin, etc. automatically starts with two attacks per melee, in addition to those provided from their actual hand to hand combat skill. That means a first level character typically starts with FOUR attacks per melee round- two to begin and two from a specific Hand to Hand skill. Game Designer Note: This was not originally the case when I first designed the game system. Back then the character only got the number of attacks provided by the Hand to Hand skill (2), plus those gained from experience in that skill and any possible O.C.C. bonus. A lot of people seem to prefer fewer attacks per round tha more. That's okay. If that's what you like, start with only two from Hand to Hand skills and forget about the other two. Role-Playing is flexible, go with what you, as GM, feel most comfortable with. I only increased the starting number (four instead of two) because it seemed more realistic for characters who are trained in combat (including adventurers who need to know how to handle themselves in the wild)."

So not only do I have it from KS himself, I have it in writing, in canon text.
The TAFL were NOT originally in Rifts.
They were added in later.

That does not adreass the quote from Rifts GMG 44.
In the rpg and other books it states that charter has two attacks per melee to start. however this does not include the two attacks any charter with hand to hand traiing is suppose to start with. Yeah, we know that it is confusing, that's why we post in these combat lists that cahrter start with four. So please do not add another two to this starting number sheese, I hope this helps and does not cause more confusion.
Or lets see pg 35 rifts main book.
Charters with hand to hand combat training automaticaly get two attacks plus(not this is in italics to make it stand out) those aquired from their hand to hand skills. (not additional attacks are gained from but plus)
Also if you see robot combat under advanced warfar in the Rifts main book it says only two skills apply hand to hand and robot combat. So then the part about allowing a GB to benifit from it is a signifcant change from the stated rule saying only two skills apply.

There is allot of rules in rifts it is verry likly that if he wrote the rule and forgot about it because he himself did not apply it.
The only thing you have shown is that they have been inconsitent in the book, with rules or fallowing them.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:26 pm
  

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Blue_Lion wrote:
That does not adreass the quote from Rifts GMG 44.
In the rpg and other books it states that charter has two attacks per melee to start.

I will solve this 'mystery' for you; that book is old and out-dated. It is not the way things are done anymore. Much like how old laws and rules are either updated or discarded, this quote you're pulling from the GMG has been discarded in favour of a higher number of attacks at the start.
For instance, in Rifts: Ultimate Edition, a character gets a number of attacks based on their hand to hand skill; Basic, for instance, offers four to start, while Assassin offers only three.

So if you continue referencing that book, then you will continue to be both wrong and confused when discussing Rifts in its current form.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:31 pm
  

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Dog_O_War wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
That does not adreass the quote from Rifts GMG 44.
In the rpg and other books it states that charter has two attacks per melee to start.

I will solve this 'mystery' for you; that book is old and out-dated. It is not the way things are done anymore. Much like how old laws and rules are either updated or discarded, this quote you're pulling from the GMG has been discarded in favour of a higher number of attacks at the start.
For instance, in Rifts: Ultimate Edition, a character gets a number of attacks based on their hand to hand skill; Basic, for instance, offers four to start, while Assassin offers only three.

So if you continue referencing that book, then you will continue to be both wrong and confused when discussing Rifts in its current form.

No the quote you are discarding is explaing why the number of attacks listed in hand to hand are now higher. It was the GMG that they changed the tables to 4 attacks with basic, the quote was explaing why they made the change.

Also as I am talking about inconstencies in the rules in the past, old books are the main source of information. So I am not confused for using the book but you may be for not checking the book before you posted.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:57 pm
  

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Blue_Lion wrote:
That does not adreass the quote from Rifts GMG 44.


It doesn't need to. The TAFL came in sometime around Rifts: Atlantis, which was years before the RGMG was written.
The RGMG is discussing the rules as they were when the RGMG was written, which is not the same as the rules when Rifts was written.

Quote:
Or lets see pg 35 rifts main book.
Charters with hand to hand combat training automaticaly get two attacks plus(not this is in italics to make it stand out) those aquired from their hand to hand skills. (not additional attacks are gained from but plus)


I'm not seeing that quote in my Rifts book.
I do see a quote under the "Hand To Hand Combat" part of the Combat Terms that states:
Characters without combat training only have one attack per melee had have no automatic chance to parry
Which, once more, nixes the "two attacks for living" rule as having existed when the main book was written.

Quote:
Also if you see robot combat under advanced warfar in the Rifts main book it says only two skills apply hand to hand and robot combat. So then the part about allowing a GB to benifit from it is a signifcant change from the stated rule saying only two skills apply.


NOT sure what you're trying to say there, but let's look at the two sides here:
1. You have ONE passage under Psychic Combat that can be interpreted multiple ways. You choose to believe that this passage means that there were always supposed to be two attacks for characters to start, and that these two attacks were always supposed to stack with the starting HTH attacks.
2. I have mountains of cases demonstrating that those two attacks were never actually used in the early books, along with direct quotes from the book showing that a character with no HTH skills started off with 1 attack (not 2 attacks just for being alive), along with Kevin Siembieda's written and verbal statements that the TAFL did not originally exist in Rifts.

You can come up with whatever "KS and is lying and all of the books were WRONG except for this one sentence that means what I think it means" kind of conspiracies you like, but they're not going to make any sense.
You can claim that the rules are inconsistent, but the only thing really inconsistent is YOUR interpretation of a single passage that has multiple potential meanings.
Remember your Sesame Street: One of these things is not like the other- one of these things just doesn't belong.

Your interpretation of that passage isn't like the entire rest of the early books.
It doesn't belong.
It's the part that's incorrect, NOT Kevin Siembieda and the rest of the early Rifts books.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:03 pm
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
That does not adreass the quote from Rifts GMG 44.


It doesn't need to. The TAFL came in sometime around Rifts: Atlantis, which was years before the RGMG was written.
The RGMG is discussing the rules as they were when the RGMG was written, which is not the same as the rules when Rifts was written.

Quote:
Or lets see pg 35 rifts main book.
Charters with hand to hand combat training automaticaly get two attacks plus(not this is in italics to make it stand out) those aquired from their hand to hand skills. (not additional attacks are gained from but plus)


I'm not seeing that quote in my Rifts book.
I do see a quote under the "Hand To Hand Combat" part of the Combat Terms that states:
Characters without combat training only have one attack per melee had have no automatic chance to parry
Which, once more, nixes the "two attacks for living" rule as having existed when the main book was written.

Quote:
Also if you see robot combat under advanced warfar in the Rifts main book it says only two skills apply hand to hand and robot combat. So then the part about allowing a GB to benifit from it is a signifcant change from the stated rule saying only two skills apply.


NOT sure what you're trying to say there, but let's look at the two sides here:
1. You have ONE passage under Psychic Combat that can be interpreted multiple ways. You choose to believe that this passage means that there were always supposed to be two attacks for characters to start, and that these two attacks were always supposed to stack with the starting HTH attacks.
2. I have mountains of cases demonstrating that those two attacks were never actually used in the early books, along with direct quotes from the book showing that a character with no HTH skills started off with 1 attack (not 2 attacks just for being alive), along with Kevin Siembieda's written and verbal statements that the TAFL did not originally exist in Rifts.

You can come up with whatever "KS and is lying and all of the books were WRONG except for this one sentence that means what I think it means" kind of conspiracies you like, but they're not going to make any sense.
You can claim that the rules are inconsistent, but the only thing really inconsistent is YOUR interpretation of a single passage that has multiple potential meanings.
Remember your Sesame Street: One of these things is not like the other- one of these things just doesn't belong.

Your interpretation of that passage isn't like the entire rest of the early books.
It doesn't belong.
It's the part that's incorrect, NOT Kevin Siembieda and the rest of the early Rifts books.

you just read the fisrt of two paragrphs on it that are on page 35 from my book second pargraph is the one that I felt was relitive so typed it up.

Page 39 says player will find two skills that exclusively derermine the pilot's number of attacks when piloting high tech robot and power aromro: 1) the pilots normal hand to hand comat skill, 2 the pilot's robot comat skill. simply cominde the number of attacks gained from each.
-That I was pointing out as a example where boxing was not applied but your quote for a glitter boy adding in boxing is a contradiction.

I have to go by what I see in my books as I can not see yours but mine does seam to indicate the intent was to have 2 extra attacks for being alive if you have hand to hand. If my point was that the rules where not consistent used inforced and I still stand by that belife.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:26 am
  

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Blue_Lion wrote:
you just read the fisrt of two paragrphs on it that are on page 35 from my book second pargraph is the one that I felt was relitive so typed it up.


Rephrase that sentence so that it makes sense.

Quote:
Page 39 says player will find two skills that exclusively derermine the pilot's number of attacks when piloting high tech robot and power aromro: 1) the pilots normal hand to hand comat skill, 2 the pilot's robot comat skill. simply cominde the number of attacks gained from each.
-That I was pointing out as a example where boxing was not applied but your quote for a glitter boy adding in boxing is a contradiction.


So... you're saying that boxing doesn't apply in robot combat...?

Quote:
I have to go by what I see in my books as I can not see yours but mine does seam to indicate the intent was to have 2 extra attacks for being alive if you have hand to hand.


What "seems to indicate" that, that I haven't already addressed?

Quote:
If my point was that the rules where not consistent used inforced and I still stand by that belife.


The only inconsistency as far as the base number of attacks for a character is your interpretation of that passage under psychic combat.
The rest of the books are very consistent as far as Palladium goes.
Even if you find a second part that supports your view... that's TWO out of DOZENS.
The dozens outweigh the two.
Dozens even outweighs three.
"There is inconsistency" does NOT mean "well, it's all up for debate..." not when it's very, very, very clear which parts are inconsistent, and which are the norm.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:20 am
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
you just read the fisrt of two paragrphs on it that are on page 35 from my book second pargraph is the one that I felt was relitive so typed it up.


Rephrase that sentence so that it makes sense.

Quote:
Page 39 says player will find two skills that exclusively derermine the pilot's number of attacks when piloting high tech robot and power aromro: 1) the pilots normal hand to hand comat skill, 2 the pilot's robot comat skill. simply cominde the number of attacks gained from each.
-That I was pointing out as a example where boxing was not applied but your quote for a glitter boy adding in boxing is a contradiction.


So... you're saying that boxing doesn't apply in robot combat...?

Quote:
I have to go by what I see in my books as I can not see yours but mine does seam to indicate the intent was to have 2 extra attacks for being alive if you have hand to hand.


What "seems to indicate" that, that I haven't already addressed?

Quote:
If my point was that the rules where not consistent used inforced and I still stand by that belife.


The only inconsistency as far as the base number of attacks for a character is your interpretation of that passage under psychic combat.
The rest of the books are very consistent as far as Palladium goes.
Even if you find a second part that supports your view... that's TWO out of DOZENS.
The dozens outweigh the two.
Dozens even outweighs three.
"There is inconsistency" does NOT mean "well, it's all up for debate..." not when it's very, very, very clear which parts are inconsistent, and which are the norm.

You seam kind of worked up over this.
I have already provided three sources of inconsistency in the same book. Pg 35 Rifts RPG
attacks per melee: Charters with no hand to hand combat training get only one attack/action per melee at levels 1,6 and 12. No automatic parry or dodge; each attempt counts as one melee action. PP and wp bonuses will apply.
Charters with hand to hand combat training automatically get two attacks plus those acquired from their hand to hand skill(s). (You say the second paragraph is not in your book, that is something I can not prove or disprove.)

The rule on page 37 witch is inconstant the part about charters with no hand to hand as page 37 says they automatically get two attacks. (So now we have two rules saying two different things from the first book, that does show inconstancy.

PG. 39Rifts rpg says players will find two skills that exclusively determine the pilot's number of attacks when piloting a high tech robot or power armor (1 was hand to hand skill 2 was robot combat skill. So the book way the rule was written the attack from boxing was not suppose to be added in.)

Between those and the quote from GMG without the later source you claim added the two attacks for being alive I would have to go wit the game designers where inconstant with the rules and examples.

So if the rules themselves are inconsistent there application may also be inconstant. But please if the two attacks can you provide the book they where added in so I can see where they where added.

But I am going to let this go saying that it is my belief based of the text in the books I have that they where inconstant about number of attacks in early books. You may disagree and that is your right, but I really do not want to waste any more of your time over a debate that is just going to go in circles.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:47 am
  

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Blue_Lion wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
you just read the fisrt of two paragrphs on it that are on page 35 from my book second pargraph is the one that I felt was relitive so typed it up.


Rephrase that sentence so that it makes sense.

Quote:
Page 39 says player will find two skills that exclusively derermine the pilot's number of attacks when piloting high tech robot and power aromro: 1) the pilots normal hand to hand comat skill, 2 the pilot's robot comat skill. simply cominde the number of attacks gained from each.
-That I was pointing out as a example where boxing was not applied but your quote for a glitter boy adding in boxing is a contradiction.


So... you're saying that boxing doesn't apply in robot combat...?

Quote:
I have to go by what I see in my books as I can not see yours but mine does seam to indicate the intent was to have 2 extra attacks for being alive if you have hand to hand.


What "seems to indicate" that, that I haven't already addressed?

Quote:
If my point was that the rules where not consistent used inforced and I still stand by that belife.


The only inconsistency as far as the base number of attacks for a character is your interpretation of that passage under psychic combat.
The rest of the books are very consistent as far as Palladium goes.
Even if you find a second part that supports your view... that's TWO out of DOZENS.
The dozens outweigh the two.
Dozens even outweighs three.
"There is inconsistency" does NOT mean "well, it's all up for debate..." not when it's very, very, very clear which parts are inconsistent, and which are the norm.

You seam kind of worked up over this.


Not really. :-?

Quote:
I have already provided three sources of inconsistency in the same book. Pg 35 Rifts RPG
attacks per melee: Charters with no hand to hand combat training get only one attack/action per melee at levels 1,6 and 12. No automatic parry or dodge; each attempt counts as one melee action. PP and wp bonuses will apply.
Charters with hand to hand combat training automatically get two attacks plus those acquired from their hand to hand skill(s). (You say the second paragraph is not in your book, that is something I can not prove or disprove.)


a) Which printing do you have?
b) It doesn't really matter. The word "acquired" doesn't necessarily change the picture- it could still easily be referring to attacks acquired as you advance in level.
Again, you're taking a sentence that can be interpreted multiple ways, and you're picking the way that doesn't make sense in conjunction with the rest of the book.
Which means that it's your interpretation that doesn't fit, not the sentence.

Quote:
The rule on page 37 witch is inconstant the part about charters with no hand to hand as page 37 says they automatically get two attacks. (So now we have two rules saying two different things from the first book, that does show inconstancy.


OR it shows that the writers (as I've demonstrated before) assume that characters will have HTH Basic, Expert, or Martial Arts- skills which provide 2 attacks per melee automatically at first level.

Quote:
PG. 39Rifts rpg says players will find two skills that exclusively determine the pilot's number of attacks when piloting a high tech robot or power armor (1 was hand to hand skill 2 was robot combat skill. So the book way the rule was written the attack from boxing was not suppose to be added in.)


Again, that's only an issue if you want to argue about boxing.
It in no way indicates or implies that people all got an extra two attacks per melee out of nowhere.

Quote:
Between those and the quote from GMG without the later source you claim added the two attacks for being alive I would have to go wit the game designers where inconstant with the rules and examples.


The game designers being inconsistent does not mean in any way that your interpretation of the rule on p. 37 is correct.
As I've said, the rules are VERY consistent. The only thing that doesn't fit is your interpretation of a couple vague sentences.

Quote:
please if the two attacks can you provide the book they where added in so I can see where they where added.


Palladium just started adding them without immediate explanation sometime around the Atlantis book.
I've already shown you the quote from CB1r where Kevin states that they were not in the game to start, but were added later.

Quote:
But I am going to let this go saying that it is my belief based of the text in the books I have that they where inconstant about number of attacks in early books. You may disagree and that is your right, but I really do not want to waste any more of your time over a debate that is just going to go in circles.


Your belief is not only wrong, it is groundless.
This isn't about my "right to disagree," it's about common sense and basic logic.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:55 am
  

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Why is this even still a conversation? What does it have to do with the OP?

1) who cares how things USED to be? They are not relevant any more.
2) RUE is quite clear how many attacks people START with now.
3) It is ONE person vs the rest of the Palladium Megaverse and that person's mind is not going to be changed.

So, that being said...Maxpary Mushrooms...they double your attacks and have not been mentioned as to how to increase your APM.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:04 pm
  

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Kagashi wrote:
So, that being said...Maxpary Mushrooms...they double your attacks and have not been mentioned as to how to increase your APM.


Good call. :ok:

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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:52 pm
  

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Kagashi wrote:
Why is this even still a conversation? What does it have to do with the OP?

1) who cares how things USED to be? They are not relevant any more.
2) RUE is quite clear how many attacks people START with now.
3) It is ONE person vs the rest of the Palladium Megaverse and that person's mind is not going to be changed.

So, that being said...Maxpary Mushrooms...they double your attacks and have not been mentioned as to how to increase your APM.

Actually I was stepping out because they key quote was discarded without proper grounds. A quote that said the main book added something was discarded by some one saying that it was only there because other books added it later. But the Main books was the first book. (obviously as he pulled quotes from other times the debate happened I am not the only one so no it not 1 vs every one.)

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Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:00 pm
  

Champion

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The two important things here are:

Kevin has outright stated that TAFL were NOT in the original game. Unless you think Kevin is just lying to you for the shiggles, conversation over.

As KC has pointed out, there's ample evidence that the infamous "Page 37" thing is an error - and i can even add to that. If you have a copy of Beyond the Supernatural (the old one, not the new one), go to that game's Psychic Combat section. Then open up your old RMB.

Compre the two - and i dont just mean wording. Look at the actual pages. Look at the little breaks and errors around the type, the little black ink dots of debris - because these pages were being set in WAX. They are *identical*. He used the same wax sets, totally unchanged; it's a pretty simple and provable oversight.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:06 pm
  

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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:47 pm
  

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Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
The two important things here are:

Kevin has outright stated that TAFL were NOT in the original game. Unless you think Kevin is just lying to you for the shiggles, conversation over.

As KC has pointed out, there's ample evidence that the infamous "Page 37" thing is an error - and i can even add to that. If you have a copy of Beyond the Supernatural (the old one, not the new one), go to that game's Psychic Combat section. Then open up your old RMB.

Compre the two - and i dont just mean wording. Look at the actual pages. Look at the little breaks and errors around the type, the little black ink dots of debris - because these pages were being set in WAX. They are *identical*. He used the same wax sets, totally unchanged; it's a pretty simple and provable oversight.


Where has he out right said they where not in the original game? Please clarify so I can check the accuracy of the statement.

PG 44 of the GMG said they where.
Number of attacks per Melee: in the RPG and other books, (wait that is saying the rpg is a book the correct name of the RMB is Rifts Role playing game) it states that a charter has "Two attacks per melee to start." However this does not include the two attacks per round any charter with hand to hand training is suppose to start with.

So that is an official publication saying it was in the original game book. So if there is errata from Kevin that says that is not the case please provide the exact location for the correct information. So I am not saying that he is wrong or lying, but that you stance is in direct conflict to what is in the rule book.

Also my original point was that PB has not been constant with Appling all the rules for number of attacks to the number of attacks. I used the two attacks for being alive as an example. As I have a book saying the rule was part of the original game and two quotes from my copy of the original game, presenting cases of it not being applied does not disprove me. I am sorry but I am not just going to take you word that the book is wrong and say you are right or that some one said something. I would like to be able to verify in writing the books is wrong.

You can look at later books and see number of attacks are wrong for NPC such as FOM. PG 57. Dan Ironforge, 6th level high mage. (book was published before GMG.) has 5 physical attacks.
as a level 6 charter with hand to hand basic he got 1 attack at level 4, as a high magus he gets one attack at level 5. So lets do the math, without the 2 for living rule he would have 2+1+1 with the rule he would have 2+2+1+1. That means he should either have 4 attacks with out the rule or 6 with the rule. However the book list him with 5 attacks, so they missed a attack from some were most likely they over looked the OCC attack bonus.

So I restate that PB has not constantly applied all the number of attack rules to the stats listed in the books for the NPCs. The two for being alive debate was just an example of it.

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:48 pm
  

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Lion, go back and READ the lengthy repost I made earlier where I broke it all down.
You're saying stuff that's been covered already.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:00 pm
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
Lion, go back and READ the lengthy repost I made earlier where I broke it all down.
You're saying stuff that's been covered already.

I do not see a direct link to where the errata or direct statement that changes the GMG. Just you saying that is addressing rules as they where at the time. But the statement in the GMG says that it was in the original book. So do you have a direct quote that can be checked or official link with a statement from Kevin that says something different that I can check? Rather than the countering by saying something hat conflicts with a text in the GMG without providing verification.

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:08 pm
  

Champion

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 1735
Blue_Lion wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Lion, go back and READ the lengthy repost I made earlier where I broke it all down.
You're saying stuff that's been covered already.

I do not see a direct link to where the errata or direct statement that changes the GMG. Just you saying that is addressing rules as they where at the time. But the statement in the GMG says that it was in the original book. So do you have a direct quote that can be checked or official link with a statement from Kevin that says something different that I can check? Rather than the countering by saying something hat conflicts with a text in the GMG without providing verification.


you know that KC has pointed you to the DIRECT QUOTE FROM KEVIN IN CONVERSION BOOK ONE REVISED LIKE FOUR TIMES NOW, right?

... you even QUOTED HIM.

Here, ill requote him for you:

Killer Cyborg wrote:
When I went to Gen-Con and talked to Kevin Siembieda, I asked him about it.
He said that they were an addition to the rules, made after the first few books were released. He's a boxing fan, and he noticed that people can get of a LOT more than 2 attacks per 15 seconds of melee. So he changed the rules.

I ran the idea by him that PCs got more attacks than NPCs, and he said No.

After I got home from Gen-Con, I looked through the copy of CB1 Revised that I bought there. Guess what I found...

CB1R, p. 12-13
"Characters with no hand to hand combat traingin get one attack/action per melee round at levels 1, 6, and 12...."
"Note: It is rare for most characters not to have at least the Hand to Hand: Basic combat skill, but civilian NPCs like a child, high school student, housewife, white collar worker, or game designer, are probably only going to have one or two attacks per round..."

Which explains a bit of the reasoning going on in assuming that all PCs get 2 attacks per melee. It is assuming that they're going to have at least HTH Basic (and apparently forgets HTH Assassin, or assumes that PCs are going to be Good aligned).

More importantly, and I apparantly cannot emphasize this enough:
"Characters with any kind of formal hand to hand combat training (HTH Basic, Expert, Assassin, etc. automatically starts with two attacks per melee, in addition to those provided from their actual hand to hand combat skill. That means a first level character typically starts with FOUR attacks per melee round- two to begin and two from a specific Hand to Hand skill. Game Designer Note: This was not originally the case when I first designed the game system. Back then the character only got the number of attacks provided by the Hand to Hand skill (2), plus those gained from experience in that skill and any possible O.C.C. bonus. A lot of people seem to prefer fewer attacks per round tha more. That's okay. If that's what you like, start with only two from Hand to Hand skills and forget about the other two. Role-Playing is flexible, go with what you, as GM, feel most comfortable with. I only increased the starting number (four instead of two) because it seemed more realistic for characters who are trained in combat (including adventurers who need to know how to handle themselves in the wild)."

So not only do I have it from KS himself, I have it in writing, in canon text.
The TAFL were NOT originally in Rifts.
They were added in later.


I made the relevant part red. Straight from Kevin. TAFL were NOT in the original game.

Discussion over.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 2:35 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 1:01 am
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Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Lion, go back and READ the lengthy repost I made earlier where I broke it all down.
You're saying stuff that's been covered already.

I do not see a direct link to where the errata or direct statement that changes the GMG. Just you saying that is addressing rules as they where at the time. But the statement in the GMG says that it was in the original book. So do you have a direct quote that can be checked or official link with a statement from Kevin that says something different that I can check? Rather than the countering by saying something hat conflicts with a text in the GMG without providing verification.


you know that KC has pointed you to the DIRECT QUOTE FROM KEVIN IN CONVERSION BOOK ONE REVISED LIKE FOUR TIMES NOW, right?

... you even QUOTED HIM.

Here, ill requote him for you:

Killer Cyborg wrote:
When I went to Gen-Con and talked to Kevin Siembieda, I asked him about it.
He said that they were an addition to the rules, made after the first few books were released. He's a boxing fan, and he noticed that people can get of a LOT more than 2 attacks per 15 seconds of melee. So he changed the rules.

I ran the idea by him that PCs got more attacks than NPCs, and he said No.

After I got home from Gen-Con, I looked through the copy of CB1 Revised that I bought there. Guess what I found...

CB1R, p. 12-13
"Characters with no hand to hand combat traingin get one attack/action per melee round at levels 1, 6, and 12...."
"Note: It is rare for most characters not to have at least the Hand to Hand: Basic combat skill, but civilian NPCs like a child, high school student, housewife, white collar worker, or game designer, are probably only going to have one or two attacks per round..."

Which explains a bit of the reasoning going on in assuming that all PCs get 2 attacks per melee. It is assuming that they're going to have at least HTH Basic (and apparently forgets HTH Assassin, or assumes that PCs are going to be Good aligned).

More importantly, and I apparantly cannot emphasize this enough:
"Characters with any kind of formal hand to hand combat training (HTH Basic, Expert, Assassin, etc. automatically starts with two attacks per melee, in addition to those provided from their actual hand to hand combat skill. That means a first level character typically starts with FOUR attacks per melee round- two to begin and two from a specific Hand to Hand skill. Game Designer Note: This was not originally the case when I first designed the game system. Back then the character only got the number of attacks provided by the Hand to Hand skill (2), plus those gained from experience in that skill and any possible O.C.C. bonus. A lot of people seem to prefer fewer attacks per round tha more. That's okay. If that's what you like, start with only two from Hand to Hand skills and forget about the other two. Role-Playing is flexible, go with what you, as GM, feel most comfortable with. I only increased the starting number (four instead of two) because it seemed more realistic for characters who are trained in combat (including adventurers who need to know how to handle themselves in the wild)."

So not only do I have it from KS himself, I have it in writing, in canon text.
The TAFL were NOT originally in Rifts.
They were added in later.


I made the relevant part red. Straight from Kevin. TAFL were NOT in the original game.

Discussion over.

You should have lead off with that your math logs where so long I lost interest before getting to the most relevant part. You rambled so many non important examples when all you needed was that quote from the book by itself. The quote is all it would have took not the 5 pages of attack break downs.

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 3:41 am
  

Champion

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 1735
Blue_Lion wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Lion, go back and READ the lengthy repost I made earlier where I broke it all down.
You're saying stuff that's been covered already.

I do not see a direct link to where the errata or direct statement that changes the GMG. Just you saying that is addressing rules as they where at the time. But the statement in the GMG says that it was in the original book. So do you have a direct quote that can be checked or official link with a statement from Kevin that says something different that I can check? Rather than the countering by saying something hat conflicts with a text in the GMG without providing verification.


you know that KC has pointed you to the DIRECT QUOTE FROM KEVIN IN CONVERSION BOOK ONE REVISED LIKE FOUR TIMES NOW, right?

... you even QUOTED HIM.

Here, ill requote him for you:

Killer Cyborg wrote:
When I went to Gen-Con and talked to Kevin Siembieda, I asked him about it.
He said that they were an addition to the rules, made after the first few books were released. He's a boxing fan, and he noticed that people can get of a LOT more than 2 attacks per 15 seconds of melee. So he changed the rules.

I ran the idea by him that PCs got more attacks than NPCs, and he said No.

After I got home from Gen-Con, I looked through the copy of CB1 Revised that I bought there. Guess what I found...

CB1R, p. 12-13
"Characters with no hand to hand combat traingin get one attack/action per melee round at levels 1, 6, and 12...."
"Note: It is rare for most characters not to have at least the Hand to Hand: Basic combat skill, but civilian NPCs like a child, high school student, housewife, white collar worker, or game designer, are probably only going to have one or two attacks per round..."

Which explains a bit of the reasoning going on in assuming that all PCs get 2 attacks per melee. It is assuming that they're going to have at least HTH Basic (and apparently forgets HTH Assassin, or assumes that PCs are going to be Good aligned).

More importantly, and I apparantly cannot emphasize this enough:
"Characters with any kind of formal hand to hand combat training (HTH Basic, Expert, Assassin, etc. automatically starts with two attacks per melee, in addition to those provided from their actual hand to hand combat skill. That means a first level character typically starts with FOUR attacks per melee round- two to begin and two from a specific Hand to Hand skill. Game Designer Note: This was not originally the case when I first designed the game system. Back then the character only got the number of attacks provided by the Hand to Hand skill (2), plus those gained from experience in that skill and any possible O.C.C. bonus. A lot of people seem to prefer fewer attacks per round tha more. That's okay. If that's what you like, start with only two from Hand to Hand skills and forget about the other two. Role-Playing is flexible, go with what you, as GM, feel most comfortable with. I only increased the starting number (four instead of two) because it seemed more realistic for characters who are trained in combat (including adventurers who need to know how to handle themselves in the wild)."

So not only do I have it from KS himself, I have it in writing, in canon text.
The TAFL were NOT originally in Rifts.
They were added in later.


I made the relevant part red. Straight from Kevin. TAFL were NOT in the original game.

Discussion over.

You should have lead off with that your math logs where so long I lost interest before getting to the most relevant part. You rambled so many non important examples when all you needed was that quote from the book by itself. The quote is all it would have took not the 5 pages of attack break downs.


... your reading comprehension is so bad you can't even tell that IM NOT THE GUY WHO POSTED ALL THAT STUFF?

......

.........

...........

and then your flippant answer is "well how dare you expect me to READ".

Aaaaannnnndd.... you're on the foes list. Buh-bye.

_________________
Im loving the Foes list; it's the only thing keeping me from tearing out my eyes from the dumb.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:08 am
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 5742
Location: Clone Lab 27
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Lion, go back and READ the lengthy repost I made earlier where I broke it all down.
You're saying stuff that's been covered already.

I do not see a direct link to where the errata or direct statement that changes the GMG. Just you saying that is addressing rules as they where at the time. But the statement in the GMG says that it was in the original book. So do you have a direct quote that can be checked or official link with a statement from Kevin that says something different that I can check? Rather than the countering by saying something hat conflicts with a text in the GMG without providing verification.


you know that KC has pointed you to the DIRECT QUOTE FROM KEVIN IN CONVERSION BOOK ONE REVISED LIKE FOUR TIMES NOW, right?

... you even QUOTED HIM.

Here, ill requote him for you:

Killer Cyborg wrote:
When I went to Gen-Con and talked to Kevin Siembieda, I asked him about it.
He said that they were an addition to the rules, made after the first few books were released. He's a boxing fan, and he noticed that people can get of a LOT more than 2 attacks per 15 seconds of melee. So he changed the rules.

I ran the idea by him that PCs got more attacks than NPCs, and he said No.

After I got home from Gen-Con, I looked through the copy of CB1 Revised that I bought there. Guess what I found...

CB1R, p. 12-13
"Characters with no hand to hand combat traingin get one attack/action per melee round at levels 1, 6, and 12...."
"Note: It is rare for most characters not to have at least the Hand to Hand: Basic combat skill, but civilian NPCs like a child, high school student, housewife, white collar worker, or game designer, are probably only going to have one or two attacks per round..."

Which explains a bit of the reasoning going on in assuming that all PCs get 2 attacks per melee. It is assuming that they're going to have at least HTH Basic (and apparently forgets HTH Assassin, or assumes that PCs are going to be Good aligned).

More importantly, and I apparantly cannot emphasize this enough:
"Characters with any kind of formal hand to hand combat training (HTH Basic, Expert, Assassin, etc. automatically starts with two attacks per melee, in addition to those provided from their actual hand to hand combat skill. That means a first level character typically starts with FOUR attacks per melee round- two to begin and two from a specific Hand to Hand skill. Game Designer Note: This was not originally the case when I first designed the game system. Back then the character only got the number of attacks provided by the Hand to Hand skill (2), plus those gained from experience in that skill and any possible O.C.C. bonus. A lot of people seem to prefer fewer attacks per round tha more. That's okay. If that's what you like, start with only two from Hand to Hand skills and forget about the other two. Role-Playing is flexible, go with what you, as GM, feel most comfortable with. I only increased the starting number (four instead of two) because it seemed more realistic for characters who are trained in combat (including adventurers who need to know how to handle themselves in the wild)."

So not only do I have it from KS himself, I have it in writing, in canon text.
The TAFL were NOT originally in Rifts.
They were added in later.


I made the relevant part red. Straight from Kevin. TAFL were NOT in the original game.

Discussion over.

You should have lead off with that your math logs where so long I lost interest before getting to the most relevant part. You rambled so many non important examples when all you needed was that quote from the book by itself. The quote is all it would have took not the 5 pages of attack break downs.


... your reading comprehension is so bad you can't even tell that IM NOT THE GUY WHO POSTED ALL THAT STUFF?

......

.........

...........

and then your flippant answer is "well how dare you expect me to READ".

Aaaaannnnndd.... you're on the foes list. Buh-bye.

You assume I was talking to you and not the person who's quote you cleared up and brought strait to the point.
Lay off personal attacks thou, some people might report you.

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 6:07 am
  

User avatar
Priest

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Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Blue_Lion wrote:
You should have lead off with that your math logs where so long I lost interest before getting to the most relevant part.


I'm sorry if my explanation of how wrong you were was too complete for you to understand.

_________________
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!


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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 6:14 am
  

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Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Blue_Lion wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Lion, go back and READ the lengthy repost I made earlier where I broke it all down.
You're saying stuff that's been covered already.

I do not see a direct link to where the errata or direct statement that changes the GMG.


The RGMG was written years after the rules changed.

Quote:
Just you saying that is addressing rules as they where at the time. But the statement in the GMG says that it was in the original book.


No, it does not.
The RGMG passage you're referring to states:

In the RPG and other books, it states that a character has "TWO attacks per melee to start." However this does not include the two attacks any character with Hand to Hand training is supposed to start with.

The first sentence IS describing what the Rifts book says- the passage that has so badly confused you to begin with.
The second sentence is describing the dreaded Two Attacks that were introduced later in the game.
Nowhere does it state that those two attacks existed in the original book, because they did not exist then. As I have very thoroughly demonstrated already.

Quote:
So do you have a direct quote that can be checked or official link with a statement from Kevin that says something different that I can check?


Only the same ones that I've posted multiple times, and have referred to multiple times in this conversation.

_________________
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!


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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 6:08 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 5742
Location: Clone Lab 27
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
You should have lead off with that your math logs where so long I lost interest before getting to the most relevant part.


I'm sorry if my explanation of how wrong you were was too complete for you to understand.

The only thing you needed was the quote from RCB1. Not a mater of complete but as I said before I usually post during commercial breaks of shows I am watching. Meaning unless you have a good hook on a long post I will not read the whole thing. Same true with any written work for most people if it does not catch there interest in the first 30 seconds they tend to loose interest and not want to read it. So when it started to look like you where reciting numbers over again I switched to reading. Then when I said it did not address the quote you just said that is because it was added later instead of pointing me strait back to the quote I missed.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:11 pm
  

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Blue_Lion wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
You should have lead off with that your math logs where so long I lost interest before getting to the most relevant part.


I'm sorry if my explanation of how wrong you were was too complete for you to understand.

The only thing you needed was the quote from RCB1.


Not knowing what exactly it would take to show you that you were wrong, I decided to just post everything.
NOT my fault that you not only didn't bother to read it, but continued the conversation as if you HAD, instead of saying "TL;DR" or "I'm not reading all of that," or any number of other appropriate responses when you encounter more text than you're willing to get into.
So yeah... I failed to mind-read twice: once with determining what exactly it would take to get you to see the truth, and again with not knowing what exactly your reading threshold was.
My bad.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:25 pm
  

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And that's enough.

Topic Locked.

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