Supernatural Strength with Magic Tattoo Weapons

[(SHIFTY)]

I had a quick supernatural strength and magic tattoo question. If you use supernatural strength with a magic weapon tattoo. Do you use the supernatural strength damage from punches/kicks for the weapon tattoo damage or what ever the weapon tattoo summons (broadsword, dagger, double bladed axe etc) Thanks!

[SpartacusDaddd]

You would use the weapons damage as per the tattoo description

[grandmaster z0b]

I think you use whichever damage is higher.

[Grazzik]

If you play by the house rule that SN strength stacks with a MD weapon like a v-sword, then stack with tattoo weapons too.

However, RAW is that you pick one, RUE pg 286. If you choose the weapon damage, you only get to add the SDC PS damage bonus from SN strength, if applicable.

[(SHIFTY)]

If you play by the house rule that SN strength stacks with a MD weapon like a v-sword, then stack with tattoo weapons too.

However, RAW is that you pick one, RUE pg 286. If you choose the weapon damage, you only get to add the SDC PS damage bonus from SN strength, if applicable.

That seems to be a pretty common house rule. Was that in the non Ultimate Edition Rifts book?

[Grazzik]

If you play by the house rule that SN strength stacks with a MD weapon like a v-sword, then stack with tattoo weapons too.

However, RAW is that you pick one, RUE pg 286. If you choose the weapon damage, you only get to add the SDC PS damage bonus from SN strength, if applicable.

That seems to be a pretty common house rule. Was that in the non Ultimate Edition Rifts book?

RMB doesn't address it. The GMG (pg 26) does, but it is the same rule as in RUE. However, Xiticix and some Gargoyle weapons do stack (for no clear reason) so some have extended this to all melee weapons as a house rule.

[SpartacusDaddd]

If you play by the house rule that SN strength stacks with a MD weapon like a v-sword, then stack with tattoo weapons too.

However, RAW is that you pick one, RUE pg 286. If you choose the weapon damage, you only get to add the SDC PS damage bonus from SN strength, if applicable.

P286 is clearly referring to SDC weapons only. By using this to extend to MDC weapons, I would wonder why bother with a weapon in the first place if your MD with a punch is greater? Basically your punch does the same as a knife sword club etc. Seems pointless to me

[Grazzik]

P286 is clearly referring to SDC weapons only.

Sorry, as I was citing RAW, I must have missed something... can you cite this restriction to SDC in RAW? Thanks, I'd appreciate the reference to use in the future. Or is this just opinion/inference?

By using this to extend to MDC weapons, I would wonder why bother with a weapon in the first place if your MD with a punch is greater? Basically your punch does the same as a knife sword club etc.

The value, or lack thereof, of adding PS bonus SDC damage to a MD attack is discussed in SB1o pg 5.

Seems pointless to me

You are certainly free to house rule away from RAW if you wish.

[SpartacusDaddd]

P286 is clearly referring to SDC weapons only.

Sorry, as I was citing RAW, I must have missed something... can you cite this restriction to SDC in RAW? Thanks, I'd appreciate the reference to use in the future. Or is this just opinion/inference?

P286, Supernatural Damage and Hand Weapons, “ When wielding a hand weapon, such as swords, clubs and knives, supernaturalbeings in- flict either the weapon damage plus P.S. damage bonus (in S.D.C.), or their own P.S. damage as per Supernatural Strength, whichever is greater. ” no reference to MDC weapons here.

Further, p285 under the section title Supernatural Strength & Damage, end of second paragraph “ Note: Supernatural beings do NOT add the P.S. at- tribute damage bonus to their M.D. attacks, but may add it to pulled punches that inflict S.D.C. damage instead of M.D.”

By using this to extend to MDC weapons, I would wonder why bother with a weapon in the first place if your MD with a punch is greater? Basically your punch does the same as a knife sword club etc.

The value, or lack thereof, of adding PS bonus SDC damage to a MD attack is discussed in SB1o pg 5.

I’m sorry I don’t know what you mean by “ SB1o” I’m not up to speed on all the acronyms, sorry!

Seems pointless to me

You are certainly free to house rule away from RAW if you wish.

[/quote]

Lol, I mean on the one hand, Palladium rules almost always need to house rule due to the quality of the writing of the rules with the contradictions and various issues of clarity. But in this case it seems pretty clear to me what the rules say.

However my original point was that it seemed pointless to wield a weapon if you can punch for the same damage

[Grazzik]

SB1o - Sourcebook 1 original... the Q&A section talks about damage and gives context

I grant you that there is a conflict between RUE pg 285 and 286 as to adding the PS bonus... but can we agree that the PS bonus is meaningless from a damage perspective and not go down that rabbit hole? However, the key question is whether this means the mechanic is limited to SDC weapons or extends to MDC. The citation on the PS bonus on pg 285 makes no reference to the nature of the weapon, nor does the citation on pg 286.

So, perhaps the answer is elsewhere... say, CB1r (Conversion Book 1 revised) pg 11. Here, again, the mechanic is reiterated. HOWEVER, this time it gives a very clear example... a demon with SNPS and a vibro-knife. It points out that the damage is either the damage from the vibro-knife or the SNPS damage, whichever is greater. It also points out that because of the disparity in damage, beings with SNPS ignore weapons and tech that result in damage that is less than a punch. In the example it is said "The damage [of the v-knife and SNPS] is not combined... A Mega-Damage blade is pointless when one's own punch or claw attack does more damage. It's as simple as that."

Might I suggest that the book explicitly expresses your sentiment that lower damage weapons would be pointless if the damage from SNPS is greater. In fact, it would seem that that is the purpose of the RAW mechanic... to prevent stacking damage.

[Jockitch74]

I had a quick supernatural strength and magic tattoo question. If you use supernatural strength with a magic weapon tattoo. Do you use the supernatural strength damage from punches/kicks for the weapon tattoo damage or what ever the weapon tattoo summons (broadsword, dagger, double bladed axe etc) Thanks!

Nightbane/Nightspawn addresses this pg35 main book

"Supernatural damage and hand weapons: When wielding a hand weapon, such as swords, clubs and knives, the supernatural being rolls both for its basic hand to hand damage and the weapon's damage. Example: A Nightbane with a P.S. 24 is wielding a sword (1D8 damage). His base hand to hand damage is 3D6+9, so when using a sword he will roll 3D6+9 plus the 1D8 sword damage and add the results together."

[Grazzik]

I had a quick supernatural strength and magic tattoo question. If you use supernatural strength with a magic weapon tattoo. Do you use the supernatural strength damage from punches/kicks for the weapon tattoo damage or what ever the weapon tattoo summons (broadsword, dagger, double bladed axe etc) Thanks!

Nightbane/Nightspawn addresses this pg35 main book

"Supernatural damage and hand weapons: When wielding a hand weapon, such as swords, clubs and knives, the supernatural being rolls both for its basic hand to hand damage and the weapon's damage. Example: A Nightbane with a P.S. 24 is wielding a sword (1D8 damage). His base hand to hand damage is 3D6+9, so when using a sword he will roll 3D6+9 plus the 1D8 sword damage and add the results together."

Great call out. However, that is Nightbane and, even if you typically play megaversally, it could be argued by some that there might be dimensional quirks a la DB7 that allows for a different set of rules / damage physics. Rifts RAW is not necessarily the same as Nightbane RAW. That said, it does show the codification and evolution of a Rifts house rule in a different game.

[narcissus]

Nightbane is also SDC. Supernatural strength rules in SDC worlds /games are different than Rifts. Apples to oranges.

[grandmaster z0b]

IMO RUE supersedes all other rules (RAW) so you take whichever damage is higher. Before RUE there were different rules published in different books, even just in dedicated Rifts books. From memory there was even a ruling that you added SN PS damage to weapon damage if the weapon had a physical core (like the Xiticix and Gargoyle weapons) but not if it was an energy weapon like a Psi-sword or TW flameblade- maybe that was in the GMG?

Like most, I've house-ruled that you add SN PS to weapon damage. I've also experimented with just added the PS bonus damage as MD and only adding half the PS damage to weapon damage: the latter was because in one game I ran a ley line walker was using Frostblade and Supernatural Strength spells together before every combat and completely out performing the two Cyberknight's psi-sword damage as well as having lots of other spells at their disposal.

[Prysus]

Supernatural strength rules in SDC worlds /games are different than Rifts.

IMO RUE supersedes all other rules (RAW) so you take whichever damage is higher. Before RUE there were different rules published in different books, even just in dedicated Rifts books. From memory there was even a ruling that you added SN PS damage to weapon damage if the weapon had a physical core (like the Xiticix and Gargoyle weapons) but not if it was an energy weapon like a Psi-sword or TW flameblade- maybe that was in the GMG?

Greetings and Salutations. Just to clarify a couple of things.

1: Not all S.D.C. settings have the same ruling. For example, Palladium Fantasy (a S.D.C. setting) has the same ruling as Rifts Ultimate Edition. Each setting seems to have its own ruling, and Rifts does not necessarily supersede another setting's ruling.
2: I've found no evidence that there's ever been a different ruling in Rifts.

From what I found in my previous searches (and I don't find anyone adding in any additional sources) ...

Rifts (original main book): 1990. Supernatural P.S. doesn't exist at this time.
Rifts Conversion Book (One, original): 1991. No statement. We would default to the standard rules (which is to say, a human/mortal punch does not add to weapon damage).
Nightbane: 1995. This one adds them together with an explicit statement. Someone may figure this rule is meant to apply to Rifts, but this is guesswork (but also the first ruling we have).
Palladium Fantasy Second Edition: 1996. This does not add them together. This is given in an explicit statement.
Heroes Unlimited Second Edition: 1998. This one adds them together. This is listed in an explicit statement for the super power (one could argue it only applies to the major version).
Rifts GM Guide: 2001. Does not add them together (same as RUE)*, and stated in an explicit statement.
Splicers: 2004. This does not add them together. This is given in an explicit statement.
Rifts Ultimate Edition: 2005. This does not add them together. This is given in an explicit statement.

*Note: Rifts GM Guide also has a Q&A section that addresses "Hand to Hand P.S. damage bonuses" being added to weapons with a physical core, but not energy weapons. However, this is regarding "damage bonus" and NOT punch damage.

Now, Rifts also has a few specific weapons (such as Xiticix) that combine Supernatural Punch Damage with weapon damage, but those are rules for specific weapons and never claim to be the general rules. Also, I think I noted all the settings that have Supernatural Strength, but I may have missed some.

With that said, I'd also like to point out that one of the best ways to get a Strike or Parry bonus is from Weapon Proficiencies (high P.P. also is extremely useful). So even if you don't do more damage, the ability to actually hit something more frequently could still be quite useful. Hope some of that helps. Farewell and safe journeys.

[grandmaster z0b]

Yes you're correct Prysus, my confusion was based on this entry from the GMG:

Do Hand to Hand P.S. damage bonuses apply to energy melee weapons?
No damage bonuses apply to the use of energy melee weapons unless there is a physical damage component to the weapon involved. Not even if the attacker has Supernatural Strength.
For example, with a Psi-Sword, Flaming Sword or Energy Sword, only the weapon damage applies, any P.S. damage (supernatural or otherwise) is not added.
However, a Vibro-Sword uses a physical core and so damage bonuses can be applied to this weapon. The same is true of rune weapons and TW weapons which have an actual cutting blade and such.

However this is after the ruling that you take whichever is higher.