Dog Boy origins...

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Dog Boy origins...

Unread post by NMI »

According to Rifts: Lone Star... when were the Dog Boys created? Pre Rifts/Golden Age of Humanity [before Chaos Earth] or were they created during Rifts time?
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Re: Dog Boy origins...

Unread post by Grazzik »

WB13 pg 22, first introduced Dog Boys in 77 PA after using Pre-Rifts technology at the Tex-Am Complex found in 68 PA, does not expressly say that Dog Boys were made Pre-Rifts.

But...

RUE pg 144, intelligent mutant animals were created Pre-Rifts, leading to the building of the Tex-Am Complex in 2092 AD. Presumably, some of those mutants were canine-based.
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Re: Dog Boy origins...

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

from the lone star book, its ambiguous.. the Lone star Complex is pre-rifts, and had the technology for creating genetically engineered beings, among other things, but we're only ever told that they are the creation pre-rifts technology with no specifics beyond that. leaving it open whether the CS was using genetic templates from pre-rifts times or something they invented themselves. in fact, the lonestar book has material that heavily implies that they were wholly an invention of Dr. Bradford and the CS. (pg22, where he answers "why dogs" with "our goal was to create an intelligent, humanoid animal to aid in fighting monsters from the rifts")

South America 2 however implies they were a pre-rifts project: the achilles republic section pf WB9 (pg139) talks about how after shapercorp was caught in the amphib scandal, their personnel and assets were squired by Project achilles, a national program to develop genetically engineered supersoldiers. and which also mentions that project achilles was nto the onyl such program underway, talking about an american government contractors, Tex-Am, which was also blending human and animal DNA to produce super-soldiers. then goes on to mention that Tex-Am would become Lone Star under the coalition states, responsible for the dogboys.

so the exact details are murky. personally, i tend to prefer the idea that the dogboys we see in rifts are post-rifts CS creations, and the programs that Tex-Am was doing pre-rifts were something different, perhaps something closer to the Amphib project (genetic therapies applied to adult human subjects using animal genetics to give them improved abilities. the hearing of canines for example, or the eyes of birds of prey, etc.)
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Re: Dog Boy origins...

Unread post by guardiandashi »

glitterboy2098 wrote:from the lone star book, its ambiguous.. the Lone star Complex is pre-rifts, and had the technology for creating genetically engineered beings, among other things, but we're only ever told that they are the creation pre-rifts technology with no specifics beyond that. leaving it open whether the CS was using genetic templates from pre-rifts times or something they invented themselves. in fact, the lonestar book has material that heavily implies that they were wholly an invention of Dr. Bradford and the CS. (pg22, where he answers "why dogs" with "our goal was to create an intelligent, humanoid animal to aid in fighting monsters from the rifts")

South America 2 however implies they were a pre-rifts project: the achilles republic section pf WB9 (pg139) talks about how after shapercorp was caught in the amphib scandal, their personnel and assets were squired by Project achilles, a national program to develop genetically engineered supersoldiers. and which also mentions that project achilles was nto the onyl such program underway, talking about an american government contractors, Tex-Am, which was also blending human and animal DNA to produce super-soldiers. then goes on to mention that Tex-Am would become Lone Star under the coalition states, responsible for the dogboys.

so the exact details are murky. personally, i tend to prefer the idea that the dogboys we see in rifts are post-rifts CS creations, and the programs that Tex-Am was doing pre-rifts were something different, perhaps something closer to the Amphib project (genetic therapies applied to adult human subjects using animal genetics to give them improved abilities. the hearing of canines for example, or the eyes of birds of prey, etc.)


my personal take on it is a little more nuanced

in my version the Tex-AM did something like 90-99% of the R&D for the dogboys but never actually created any because of laws against macro genetic engineering in the NEMA states, (USA, Canada, and Mexico) the south american nations created mutant creatures for 2 reasons 1 they didn't have the same laws prohibiting it, and 2 they were creating mutant animals and supersoldiers as their version of "ultratech" because they felt they effectively got more bang for the buck, and theyt frankly couldn't duplicate equipment like the chrome guardsman the silver eagle and the like
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Re: Dog Boy origins...

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

the issue i have with "they didn't make any because of the laws" is the fact they built their own little version of kamino there in the Tex-Am complex. the CS didn't have to do anything site expansion wise to put their dogboys into full mass production. i they stopped because of legal issues, they'd have had only a few artificial womb systems to grow the results.. not hundreds if not thousands of them plus all the facilities to care for and train the result. that level of investment into production infrastructure suggests they had an active program going that was producing an active product.

this is one of the reasons i like the idea of them working on human augmentation by splicing animal DNA into existing soldiers. we know that it can be done, thanks to the amphibs, and we know that Bradford is experimenting with similar ideas under the CS (like the Psi-X), and since such a program would produce more immediate results, investing in the systems to mass convert troops rapidly would fit.

that said, i don't have an issue with the idea that they also developed some humanoid animals there pre-rifts, and the CS just tweaked existing genetic blueprints. i just figure the issue preventing them from appearing would be more "not enough full grown at the time" and less legal challenges. i mean, this is a nation where they continued to use juicer and MOM tech for their own troops even after learning the massive drawbacks.
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Re: Dog Boy origins...

Unread post by Grazzik »

I agree with you, GB, why build capacity if you aren't going to use it? Also, as with any factory, multiple products could be worked on at the same time - genetic human augmentation, mutant animals, bio-brains for AI, enhanced cloned biosystems, etc.

Could they make Dog Boys pre-Rifts? Yes.
Did they make Dog Boys pre-Rifts? Most likely.
Were the pre-Rifts Dog Boys the same as CS Dog Boys? Perhaps better, perhaps less refined, perhaps more augmented. Your choice.
Did they go into full production of a Dog Boy legion pre-Rifts? Doubt it.
Did they produce and maintain a smaller force for testing or limited deployment pre-Rifts? Anything is possible with a super-secret industrial-military complex in a sci-fi game.

In fact, a small company of experimental Dog Boys during Chaos Earth would be an interesting, but unleveraged, development... as according to WB13, the Tex-Am Complex wasn't in operation after Dec 22, 2098, but they still had six years to do some production... unless there is another complex yet to be found out in the unexplored wilds of Oregon or California :shock: ...
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Re: Dog Boy origins...

Unread post by Library Ogre »

I'd lean towards "Pre-Rifts Dog Boys are different." Different Dog Boys for different needs; in my notes for CS: Civil Society, I included the Missouri Hill Dog... intelligent, but in a non-human fashion. A work and companion dog... pretty much "Good Dog, Carl."
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Re: Dog Boy origins...

Unread post by keir451 »

Also figure that "money talks". It's possible that, indeed, some individual Dog Boy or other mutant animals may have been created as 'special orders' for some very rich people. There may even have been military or gov't interest in mutant soldiers to supplement human ones, but the laws (at least for the U.S.) would have stopped them, officially at least. This might have lead TexAm to create the larger scale facilities, in hopes of large scale production before the laws went into effect, then they just fell back on limited production for, again, those very rich customers who'd pay top dollar for their personal companion/toy/etc. (Catgirl sex companions, anyone?)
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Re: Dog Boy origins...

Unread post by Library Ogre »

keir451 wrote:Also figure that "money talks". It's possible that, indeed, some individual Dog Boy or other mutant animals may have been created as 'special orders' for some very rich people. There may even have been military or gov't interest in mutant soldiers to supplement human ones, but the laws (at least for the U.S.) would have stopped them, officially at least. This might have lead TexAm to create the larger scale facilities, in hopes of large scale production before the laws went into effect, then they just fell back on limited production for, again, those very rich customers who'd pay top dollar for their personal companion/toy/etc. (Catgirl sex companions, anyone?)


Another option would be prototypes... "Ok, we've done proof of concept for our 'mutant dog soliders', what's next? Aaaaaand the world went and exploded on us. Bugger."
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Re: Dog Boy origins...

Unread post by green.nova343 »

glitterboy2098 wrote:from the lone star book, its ambiguous.. the Lone star Complex is pre-rifts, and had the technology for creating genetically engineered beings, among other things, but we're only ever told that they are the creation pre-rifts technology with no specifics beyond that. leaving it open whether the CS was using genetic templates from pre-rifts times or something they invented themselves. in fact, the lonestar book has material that heavily implies that they were wholly an invention of Dr. Bradford and the CS. (pg22, where he answers "why dogs" with "our goal was to create an intelligent, humanoid animal to aid in fighting monsters from the rifts")

South America 2 however implies they were a pre-rifts project: the achilles republic section pf WB9 (pg139) talks about how after shapercorp was caught in the amphib scandal, their personnel and assets were squired by Project achilles, a national program to develop genetically engineered supersoldiers. and which also mentions that project achilles was nto the onyl such program underway, talking about an american government contractors, Tex-Am, which was also blending human and animal DNA to produce super-soldiers. then goes on to mention that Tex-Am would become Lone Star under the coalition states, responsible for the dogboys.

so the exact details are murky. personally, i tend to prefer the idea that the dogboys we see in rifts are post-rifts CS creations, and the programs that Tex-Am was doing pre-rifts were something different, perhaps something closer to the Amphib project (genetic therapies applied to adult human subjects using animal genetics to give them improved abilities. the hearing of canines for example, or the eyes of birds of prey, etc.)


I would go along with that, especially given the nature of the psychic abilities for those Project Achilles RCCs listed in WB9/SA2. Unlike the Dog Boys, it seems like their specific psychic abilities run a gamut of providing them with the equivalent abilities of their base animal strain (i.e. "psychic flight"), or some specific abilities that would have almost certainly been post-Rifts developments (as I can't see "Ley Line drifting mutant capybaras" being a hugely desirable commodity pre-Rifts).

My guess is that Project Achilles, like the Lone Star facility, was focusing primarily on the genetic splicing to create mutant animals that had human/humanoid characteristics, but that the psionic research was either still in its infancy or a research by-product from the animal genetics research (i.e. fortuitous accidents). Post-Rifts, Project Achilles focuses that research on creating new strains that had psychic abilities to be used in the general defense of the region (& specifically to defend against their primary enemy, the human-centric Cordoba), in the Coalition they focused that psychic research to assist with their anti-supernatural focus. Hence the major differences in abilities between Dog Boys & the typical Project Achilles RCCs.
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Re: Dog Boy origins...

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i'd guess that the psionic side of project achilles started as fortutitous accidents, but once they realized they had produced psychics as part of their "disposable humanoid animal soldier" project they started experimenting with different genetic tweaks trying to produce more potent and reliable versions. it is heavily implied that they were cloning mass lots of altered animals and euthanizing any that didn't live up to specific criteria for their project, then using those successful clones as the genetic feedstock for the next rounds of changes (perhaps combining successful genetic sequences from multiple experimental batches). highly unethical, when working on sentient beings, even if technically legal there. (and given they were doing it as a secret project, and their co-option of the criminal amphib project scientists for it, i suspect they knew that if word got out such programs would be made illegal fast enough, if not already. certainly i suspect they were violating laws about genetic-patient treatment if nothing else)

the post-rifts situation causing said powers (and a few powers they didn't know about) to grow stronger just ended up their undoing. though it seems that the project ran for at least a few years post-cataclysm, given the fluff for the neo-humans. some of the researchers survived long enough after losing government oversight to initiate and breed batches of humans given many of the same genetic tweaks the animals were.
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Re: Dog Boy origins...

Unread post by Sambot »

I think the majority of mutant animals ended up in space. The Rifts section of Mutants in Orbit says that the population is 20% mutant animals. Yuro Station also has Mutant Animal Juicers and Crazies which aren't available on Earth. At least not in North America. The space agencies and corporations could easily have purchased mutant animals from other corporations like Tex-Am to send into space as cheap disposable labor and as genetic experiments to lessen the effects of zero gravity. There is also the added benefit of being able to test and improve their "product" out of the public's view. Plus, if most mutant animals were in space it would explain why there doesn't seem to be any on Earth until the Coalition States stars deploying their Dog Boys.
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Re: Dog Boy origins...

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

eh... given its age and the whole "ATB with a veneer of rifts added" nature of the book, i tend to regard MiO with a big grain of salt. the existence of the stations and much of the politics has appeared in SoT: Aftermath, but the mutant animal numbers didn't, so i'm wary of taking their numbers at face value.

regarding possible Tex-Am products in CE, first Responders does have a set of genetically engineered canines for use as working dogs in the preview. (and mention of a dog handler OCC, which apparently didn't make it into the preview). these canines are larger, stronger, smarter, and tougher than normal dogs, and are used as guard dogs, drug/bomb sniffing dogs, trackers, etc. i could totally see these being a major product of Tex-Am, as even the military would have use for such animals. could also see them working up other enhanced animals for various roles.
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Re: Dog Boy origins...

Unread post by Sambot »

glitterboy2098 wrote:eh... given its age and the whole "ATB with a veneer of rifts added" nature of the book, i tend to regard MiO with a big grain of salt. the existence of the stations and much of the politics has appeared in SoT: Aftermath, but the mutant animal numbers didn't, so i'm wary of taking their numbers at face value.

regarding possible Tex-Am products in CE, first Responders does have a set of genetically engineered canines for use as working dogs in the preview. (and mention of a dog handler OCC, which apparently didn't make it into the preview). these canines are larger, stronger, smarter, and tougher than normal dogs, and are used as guard dogs, drug/bomb sniffing dogs, trackers, etc. i could totally see these being a major product of Tex-Am, as even the military would have use for such animals. could also see them working up other enhanced animals for various roles.


I see MiO as two separate books covering a similar topic in one package. I also don't see anything in SoT: Aftermath that would contradict MiO. In fact, the article says to see Mutants in Orbit for a full lowdown on the space colonies. So even though the information is old, it is still valid.

The CE genetically engineered canines could definitely be Tex-Am products. I see them as a precursor to the more humanoid Dog Boys. Something to prove how useful genetically engineered animals can be and a reason to push the boundaries of science and sensibilities. "We can make them more useful by giving them hands and the ability to talk." Something that think they'd already managed to quietly do but hadn't managed to make it completely legal and acceptable to the general population yet. I think they were used, quietly, in space to prove how good they were so they could introduce them to the world. Then the Rifts happened and ended that plan. Later on the Coalition States finds all the equipment and research and does what Tex-Am had planned but weren't able to do. Create armies of mutant animals for use by the military.
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