Current Earth Tech

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slade the sniper
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Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by slade the sniper »

Is there "vectored thrust" in any Palladium book with reference to an aircraft?

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Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by jaymz »

Not that I'm aware.
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Re: Current Earth Tech

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slade the sniper wrote:I like the idea of blast doing damage to everything that is exposed...and while it would make explosives the "king of battle" there is a reason that artillery and missile weapons are the current kings of battle...because they work. It does require that the GM take care to ensure that the blast damage is applied as a "plane" determined by the plane of the surface impacted. It does make the weapons effects more "realistic" but with an inexperienced GM, it would vastly increase the amount of time combat takes.

-STS


Tricky thing about that is that the effects of explosions are weird when you detonate them just outside a large armored vehicle. The blast overpressure wave will wrap around and hurt people on the far side of an unyielding barrier, but the thermal flash and fragmentation won't.

Then you have to consider the kind of fuze the explosive ordnance is using.
+If it explodes on impact, that will tend to do more damage to the surface impacted, but if the surface is resilient, it will effectively shield a lot of nearby objects. As an example, if an artillery projectile hits nearby you and explodes on impact, you are far more likely to live if you're lying down than standing up. This can get even more complicated when you consider how quick the impact fuzing detonates the munition. If it's super-quick, this shielding effect will be reduced, but it will likely not do as much damage to the surface it hits.
+If the munition explodes in the air when it gets near a target, it will tend to hit a wider area with flash burns and fragmentation, but the intensity of the damage will be less.

Finally, you have to consider the munition itself. If you have a two-stage munition where it splashed stuff out first and then makes it explode/burn such as napalm or a fuel/air bomb, that's much more likely to spread damage widely. How does a "plasma" explosion work, or a fusion block explosion?

Thus, I think that it's entirely plausible for an explosive munition to damage some exposed components of a vehicle or robot/power armor, but I would not apply a "everything in XXX radius takes damage" model. I'd probably follow the rules as written unless there was some special munition in play that was designed and fuzed to spread its damage out more.
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Re: Current Earth Tech

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slade the sniper wrote:Is there "vectored thrust" in any Palladium book with reference to an aircraft?

-STS

Rifts WB14 New West SAMAS Power Armor is the only thing that really comes to mind, but those are power armor and not conventional aircaft. There aren't a whole lot of fighter jet aircraft in Rifts, and a few of those have the sci-fi hand-wavium tech (antigravity for ex). If any of the jet fighters did have it, my money would be on Triax (WB5 or 32) or Naruni (DB8). 2E RT might have it in either the Masters SB (Slyphid) or the Macross SB, but I seriously doubt it.
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Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by slade the sniper »

Looking through various books, there is a mention of vectored thrust in for the MIM-31 and gives the aircraft some good bonuses for air to ground combat. There is a mention of ventral thrusters on the F-203 Dragon II and gives it some great Air to Air bonuses, but it is also a V/STOL aircraft. Did you know that the F-22 misses being STOL by only 30 meters on take off at max weight? Still looking. Will update.

-STS

Edit 1: The VC-33 also has vectored thrust but no bonuses.

Edit 2: The SF-7 CS Talon in Coalition War Campaign has some bonuses given for what I assume is a stealth system...

Edit 3: Found some stats for a "Jet Fighter" in Warlords of Russia, page 142. AR 10, SDC 900. Still lower in SDC than the ones in RDF Manual, but they do have an AR, which is better than nothing.

Edit 4: Found the skill bonuses for Basic and Elite Fighter Combat Training...Phase World, page 151. Probably supposed to use these if the specific aircraft doesn't have a specific combat training for it.

Edit 5: Looking through some old Rifters, #33, page 81, there are some new Air to Air combat rules, and basically it says that an aircraft with VTOL capabilities gets a +10% due to vectoring in forward flight, while an aircraft with thrust vectoring gets a +5%. Also, faster speed max speed gives a +5% as well (going to gets due to faster acceleration via higher thrust to weight ratio). There are also a lot of good air to air maneuvers, but it is not "Official" so it doesn't count.

Edit 6: some examples of vectored thrust/VIFF
https://www.airspacemag.com/flight-today/how-things-work-thrust-vectoring-45338677/?page=1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrDnXEKlSY4F-22
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY2VKApQo6AAV-8B
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_r5fNEJbfIgSU-37
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7Nsko6bvC8vectored thrust craziness
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iVLLTlviQUSU-57

Flat spins and Pugachevs Cobra...no problemo.

Edit 7: Stealth armor coating, Mutants in Orbit page 82. It is for spacecraft, tho...but I suspect the same tech would work for atmospheric airframes.
Last edited by slade the sniper on Sat Mar 27, 2021 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by slade the sniper »

Just found a lot of SDC weapons and equipment in the back of the HU GM's guide. Interesting stuff.

Heat suppression systems, such as on the AH-64 Apache give a -6 to hit vs IR guided missiles. WOW. Minigun stats are nice. Stats for the OH-6, UH-1 and AH-1 (AR 10, SDC 450 for the Cobra).

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Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by jaymz »

Yeah PB is all over the place when doing SDC aircraft...

They either have an AR and relatively reasonable sdc or no AR and more sdc than same era sdc tank :lol,:
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Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by slade the sniper »

In looking through my several bookshelves of PB games that I will never get to play again, I found A LOT of real world weapons stuck in various location. Would putting an AR, and SDC and a book title and page number be appreciated by the group?

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Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by slade the sniper »

Dug up some stats for some low cal vehicle weapons from Transdimensional TMNT
5.56mm = 5d6
7.62mm = 6d6
.50 Cal = 7d6
20mm autocannon = 1d4x10 (seeing as how this may do less damage than a .50 cal, I suspect this is supposed to be 1d6x10)
30mm automatic gun = 2d4x10

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Re: Current Earth Tech

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The cobra is a useless maneuver. Great at airshow bad idea in combat.
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Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Books don't have super cavitation either. Greg's Hardware Unlimited was going to introduce it and I wanted to put it 8n Alaska.
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Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by slade the sniper »

Zer0 Kay wrote:The cobra is a useless maneuver. Great at airshow bad idea in combat.

Actually, it is great in combat, with sticks and stones (only guns) or very short range AAMs with no offboresight capability.

I remember (like that is worth anything these days) an episode of "Dogfights" I think and in the wonky CGI, basically showed an F-4 do a Cobra and kill a North Vietnamese fighter.

I wish I could remember anything more than that. I 'think' it was about Driscoll and Cunningham vs Toon? It was definitely Vietnam tho.

As for the utility of supermaneuvrability, I wouldn't count it out until it is used in combat. Lots of useless things end up being pretty cool when killing time comes.

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Re: Current Earth Tech

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Zer0 Kay wrote:Books don't have super cavitation either. Greg's Hardware Unlimited was going to introduce it and I wanted to put it 8n Alaska.

What are these things you speak of? [the books, I know what super cavitation is]

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Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by slade the sniper »

This is a very good article on the new helmet mounted optics the Army is going to buy (up to 21 billion USD worth). Looks like good kit.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/40023/army-makes-gargantuan-bet-on-new-augmented-reality-goggles-for-its-soldiers

I would put the text up, but there is a lot of valuable/interesting video links in there that are worth the view.

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Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

slade the sniper wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:Books don't have super cavitation either. Greg's Hardware Unlimited was going to introduce it and I wanted to put it 8n Alaska.

What are these things you speak of? [the books, I know what super cavitation is]

-STS


Greg D. has manuscripts for Hardware Unlimited and Underseas 2 that he has super cav in. I've been trying to complete a manuscript for AK but I need someone to help with the fluff.
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Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

I know about not able to be writing fluff. It seams the fluff I tend to write is in the equipment listings rather than a introduction text to the equipment listings. *wonders if contributed to my Galaxy Unlimited article not getting into a rifter.* (yes I know that rifts is the cash cow, and anything for the other PB games had a low ability to get in.)

However, is really posting to respond to the thrust vectoring. There are good examples of the 'Idea' of what it does in the Anime Macross Plus. Both at the beginning and at the end of the series.
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Re: Current Earth Tech

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I know about not able to be writing fluff. It seams the fluff I tend to write is in the equipment listings rather than a introduction text to the equipment listings. *wonders if contributed to my Galaxy Unlimited article not getting into a rifter.* (yes I know that rifts is the cash cow, and anything for the other PB games had a low ability to get in.)

However, is really posting to respond to the thrust vectoring. There are good examples of the 'Idea' of what it does in the Anime Macross Plus. Both at the beginning and at the end of the series.


Why look there? Just look in real life at the F22. Thrust vectoring my butt. The thing has to have AG pulling off some low speed maneuvers during the base commanders demonstration.
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Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

aahhh...maybe because I know things about how vectored thrust related to that anime.

Maybe you should check it out to see how that early 1990s anime matches up to the 'now' real life.
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Re: Current Earth Tech

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Borast wrote:Heheh... I agree with jaymz.

I take it a step further. Damaged weapons can fail. Damaged weapons either explode, or release all it's energy at once.

First couple of times it happened, my PCs loved it!
Then it happened to a PC... :( They didn't love it no more. (The only thing left of the PC was his body armour boots.)


Eww reminds me of S&R training in the USAF. The 'R' is recovery not rescue. After crashes we were tasked with searching for the remains. We were instructed that if the person was wearing their helmet and PPG we would most likely find their head in their helmet, their feet in their boots, their hands in their gloves and the rest of their body in their jumpsuit.
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Re: Current Earth Tech

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:aahhh...maybe because I know things about how vectored thrust related to that anime.

Maybe you should check it out to see how that early 1990s anime matches up to the 'now' real life.


Oh, I love the anime. Are we talking about how the Ghost was super agile? As you mention beginning and end but both the YFs have to have VT with the maneuvers they pull and the 21 even shows the thrusters when Bowman is testing the mind control. The F-22 only has pitch vectoring, the nozzles can't alternate to perform roll vectoring. So both of the fighters would be superior to the 22 in maneuverability. That being said the M+ mecha were doing all high speed maneuvering which doesn't display their thrust control which means we wouldn't see the rediculous maneuvers I saw the 22 do, including a low speed cobra. Fighters fight fast and if they're moving that slow they're more than likely about to be dead.

The slow maneuvers are made to show control and show off the tech. Those airfield demos and airshow can't show off combat capability for those you have to go out to the training areas where they have massive amounts of sky to play in.
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Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

most of the fighters in rifts do not appear to be thrust vectoring in description or art. many are VTOL but they appear to use a set up close to the F-35 or the Yak-39, using dedicated lifting fans or jets.

there are three main ways for thrust vectoring...
Steerable nozzles for VTOL (like the Harrier)
2-D shifting nozzles (like the F-22)
3-D shifting nozzles (like SU-37 and Su-57)

steerable nozzles only really are meant for VTOL operation, but depending on their range of rotation can be used for enhanced maneuvering by a skilled pilot since they can redirect the thrust to "below" or even slightly ahead of the craft, allowing great vertical climb or tighter banked turns. main advantage though is superior low speed handling since you redirect thrust downwards to hover, avoiding a stall.
2-D shifting nozzles give greater pitch control, and if paired, can be used to give better roll rates.
3-D shifting nozzles can give better pitch, roll, and yaw rates, and even the potential for a degree of off-axis maneuvering.
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Re: Current Earth Tech

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glitterboy2098 wrote:most of the fighters in rifts do not appear to be thrust vectoring in description or art. many are VTOL but they appear to use a set up close to the F-35 or the Yak-39, using dedicated lifting fans or jets.

there are three main ways for thrust vectoring...
Steerable nozzles for VTOL (like the Harrier)
2-D shifting nozzles (like the F-22)
3-D shifting nozzles (like SU-37 and Su-57)

steerable nozzles only really are meant for VTOL operation, but depending on their range of rotation can be used for enhanced maneuvering by a skilled pilot since they can redirect the thrust to "below" or even slightly ahead of the craft, allowing great vertical climb or tighter banked turns. main advantage though is superior low speed handling since you redirect thrust downwards to hover, avoiding a stall.
2-D shifting nozzles give greater pitch control, and if paired, can be used to give better roll rates.
3-D shifting nozzles can give better pitch, roll, and yaw rates, and even the potential for a degree of off-axis maneuvering.


How does 2D give better roll rates? That's only if they can alternate direction. The 22's engines are linked.

The F-35 isn't VTOL. It is STO and VL or STOVL... But you did say "like". So you must mean appearance rather than function.

I kind of find it funny that CP2020 uses "AV" to categorize the flying cars that use vectored thrust for flight. The only place I know they'd pick it up from is the AV-8 Harrier, but the V is for VSTOL not Vectored thrust. I guess in CP the Lightning II and the Raptor would be the FV-35 or F-35V and FV-22
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Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by slade the sniper »

I think the AV is for "air vehicle" as in basically flying cars, because that is all they are. They went with a new naming type for a new type of vehicle.

As for aerial maneuvers, the SU-37 and -57 are crazy, I would say on par with, or a bit below, VT's. The fight scenes from Macross Zero were awesome. I can see 3D vectored thrust be much more valuable in a CAS role and WVR air combat than the expected BVR missiles.

I wonder why CRAM/"active armor" systems are not being more explored on aircraft? Airframe strength/reuse is one reason, but I am sure you could make them hardpoint mounted or have some sort of Vernier-type derivative.

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Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Zer0 Kay wrote:Oh, I love the anime. Are we talking about how the Ghost was super agile? As you mention beginning and end but both the YFs have to have VT with the maneuvers they pull and the 21 even shows the thrusters when Bowman is testing the mind control. The F-22 only has pitch vectoring, the nozzles can't alternate to perform roll vectoring. So both of the fighters would be superior to the 22 in maneuverability. That being said the M+ mecha were doing all high speed maneuvering which doesn't display their thrust control which means we wouldn't see the rediculous maneuvers I saw the 22 do, including a low speed cobra. Fighters fight fast and if they're moving that slow they're more than likely about to be dead.

The slow maneuvers are made to show control and show off the tech. Those airfield demos and airshow can't show off combat capability for those you have to go out to the training areas where they have massive amounts of sky to play in.


More Izamu's 1st test flight...for ....showing off :ok:
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Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by slade the sniper »

Question for those who might know:
Are torpedoes somehow inaccurate? Palladium gives torpedoes a -2 to strike past 1 mile, but a +3 to strike under a 1000'

Why would they think that? Anyway, just an accuracy question for torpedoes.

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Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by jaymz »

Because Palladium pulls such things from its butt?
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Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by guardiandashi »

slade the sniper wrote:Question for those who might know:
Are torpedoes somehow inaccurate? Palladium gives torpedoes a -2 to strike past 1 mile, but a +3 to strike under a 1000'

Why would they think that? Anyway, just an accuracy question for torpedoes.

-STS

first of all as mentioned Palladium just makes stuff up that often has no relation to "reality"

with that said a lot of times "torpedos" are modeled as larger "slower, and less agile" missiles, where they aren't real water torpedos.
the main examples that come to mind off hand are:
wing commander universe, star wars, and star trek

in wing commander, missiles are anti fighter ordinance so thay have to be relatively fast and agile in order to track and hit fighters. which also limits the size of the warhead.
Torpedos are anti capital ship ordinance they take longer to lock on but when they successfully hit they will damage or kill capital ships abruptly through massive damage.
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Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

The torpedoes in question for WB7 also are traveling above the speed of (underwater) sound, so clearly are super cavitation rocket propelled torps like the russian Shkval. These would be less accurate at longer ranges since they cannot effectively use sensors to home in on a target, instead relying on preprogrammed inertial travel paths. Up very close though they'd be very accurate since the target has very little time to get out of the way.

In my article "the deep frontier" in rifter 70 I included more conventional torpedoes.. much slower but far more accurate and quiet.
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Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by slade the sniper »

I figured it had something to do with the speed as I don't "think" agility was able to be super maneuverable at that speed underwater. Thanks for the info.

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Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

slade the sniper wrote:I figured it had something to do with the speed as I don't "think" agility was able to be super maneuverable at that speed underwater. Thanks for the info.

-STS

Especially since IIRC the shikval can't turn well because it breaks the cavity.
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Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

originally it couldn't turn at all.. later generations of it apparently can, just badly.
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Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

glitterboy2098 wrote:originally it couldn't turn at all.. later generations of it apparently can, just badly.

Lol. I imagine it hs to vent additional gas in the direction of change or does it just make a huge envelope now that it can turn within it.
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Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

Zer0 Kay wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:originally it couldn't turn at all.. later generations of it apparently can, just badly.

Lol. I imagine it hs to vent additional gas in the direction of change or does it just make a huge envelope now that it can turn within it.

my understanding is that the cavitator is now on an articulated plate, so it can turn by steering the bubble itself.
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Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by slade the sniper »

Just found a listing for torpedoes in Robotech 1st Edition, Sea Sergeant helicopter, 1d6x10 MD (same as SRM as they are fond of saying), 3 mile range, +2 to strike.

Going by what all these game references are saying...and some real world research...this is what I am going to go with:

Rifts/Robotech Torpedoes:
lightweight warhead: equal to a SRM
heavyweight warhead: equal to a SRM

Short range: ~5 miles?
Long range: ~30 miles? (by Rifts, the range could easily be equal to a MRM, so up to 80 miles at the very high end)

straight-running: unguided, no bonuses
autonomous homing: +2 to strike
wire-guided: +3 to strike, but is limited to some range such as 10 miles. Cannot be air launched.

Normal: 30 to 70 mph (or roughly 1/10th SRM speeds)
Super-cavitating: equal to a SRM, several hundred MPH

Here is an interesting article on torpedo/underwater damage effects.
https://navy-matters.blogspot.com/2017/07/torpedo-lethality-myth.html

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Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

glitterboy2098 wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:originally it couldn't turn at all.. later generations of it apparently can, just badly.

Lol. I imagine it hs to vent additional gas in the direction of change or does it just make a huge envelope now that it can turn within it.

my understanding is that the cavitator is now on an articulated plate, so it can turn by steering the bubble itself.


The heck? Hows that work? The original had gas vents in the head which created a cavity. How is steering the bubble going to manipulate the direction the rocket is propelling it? That said the plate and rocket nozzle probably work in tandem. Super cav is basically a means of allowing a rocket to fly underwater. In order to use air sucking jets whatever is producing the cavity would have to do it by expelling gas (normal way the torpedoes do it) but it would have to be full of O2.
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Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

slade the sniper wrote:Just found a listing for torpedoes in Robotech 1st Edition, Sea Sergeant helicopter, 1d6x10 MD (same as SRM as they are fond of saying), 3 mile range, +2 to strike.

Going by what all these game references are saying...and some real world research...this is what I am going to go with:

Rifts/Robotech Torpedoes:
lightweight warhead: equal to a SRM
heavyweight warhead: equal to a SRM

Short range: ~5 miles?
Long range: ~30 miles? (by Rifts, the range could easily be equal to a MRM, so up to 80 miles at the very high end)

straight-running: unguided, no bonuses
autonomous homing: +2 to strike
wire-guided: +3 to strike, but is limited to some range such as 10 miles. Cannot be air launched.

Normal: 30 to 70 mph (or roughly 1/10th SRM speeds)
Super-cavitating: equal to a SRM, several hundred MPH

Here is an interesting article on torpedo/underwater damage effects.
https://navy-matters.blogspot.com/2017/07/torpedo-lethality-myth.html

-STS


Wait is that 1e or 2e RT? All "missiles" in 2e are smaller than Rifts missiles and all 2e RT missiles are the same or larger than Rifts missiles.

RT 1e
mini-missile about the size of a pop can able to fit into the cyclone missile launchers
SRM about the size of Aim-9 Sidewinder 4/pylon
MRM about the size of an AIM-120 AMRAAM 2/pylon
LRM about the size of a AIM-54 Phoenix Missile 1/pylon
The Alpha had a ton of SRM not mini missiles they may be smaller in length than a Sidewinder but their diameter is at least the size of a human head which is larger than a sidewinder and far larger than a pop can.

RT 2e... everything is a mini-missile, yeah it's hyperbole... but not by much.

RT 2e

Oops my point being
RT 1e
more efficient missile tech
Rifts requires larger missiles to equal RT1e capabilites
RT 2e... Rifts is better.
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Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Borast »

Zer0 Kay wrote:In order to use air sucking jets whatever is producing the cavity would have to do it by expelling gas (normal way the torpedoes do it) but it would have to be full of O2.


?
A rocket motor, in the case of a torpedo such as this, I presume, uses standard rocket fuels...which require no supplemental oxygen, as the fuel itself is an oxygenator. (Think an SRB like NASA used to launch the shuttle. After all, the last thing you want in a weapon is a liquid fuel caused "hammer" blowing out fittings and spewing fuel all over the place...and, oh, say...detonating in the tube. :eek: )
If you're talking about a SCRAM jet style "rocket"... I don't think it would be able to produce enough oxygen to be useable...not and carry a usable payload any real distance. Kinetic kills are all well and good, but underwater, concussions are better!
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Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Borast wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:In order to use air sucking jets whatever is producing the cavity would have to do it by expelling gas (normal way the torpedoes do it) but it would have to be full of O2.


?
A rocket motor, in the case of a torpedo such as this, I presume, uses standard rocket fuels...which require no supplemental oxygen, as the fuel itself is an oxygenator. (Think an SRB like NASA used to launch the shuttle. After all, the last thing you want in a weapon is a liquid fuel caused "hammer" blowing out fittings and spewing fuel all over the place...and, oh, say...detonating in the tube. :eek: )
If you're talking about a SCRAM jet style "rocket"... I don't think it would be able to produce enough oxygen to be useable...not and carry a usable payload any real distance. Kinetic kills are all well and good, but underwater, concussions are better!


Ah yes, apologies point was taken sideways. He said supercav and not all supercav concepts are missiles. If there is a supercav fighter it has to be a rocket as it couldn't use an air sucking jet. So I was thinking and put in the response to my thought without putting in the thought.

"But if that is how the rocket steers how would it work for a supercav fighter?" ...
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Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

expanding the bubble on one side or another (by way of changing the angle of the cavitator) creates a flow differential around the bubble much like air over an airplane wing, is my understanding.
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Re: Current Earth Tech

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glitterboy2098 wrote:expanding the bubble on one side or another (by way of changing the angle of the cavitator) creates a flow differential around the bubble much like air over an airplane wing, is my understanding.


Right that steers the bubble but... and I feel like I'm being unintentionally... intentionally obtuse... how does changing the direction of the bubble change the direction the... lets face it, it is a missile not a torpedo driven by a propeller... goes? The bubble doesn't mystically keep the object within it centered nor is the cavitator the device that drives the missile it is simply the source of the bubble that allows the missile to fly through a low friction medium.
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Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by slade the sniper »

Aren't there steering vanes/control surfaces? Stick the control surface into the more dense medium (water) to turn in that direction? Right fin into water to turn right?
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/shkval.htm
Alternately, the fins work as they would in air, so as the body of the missile adjusts (within the cavity) the nose of the missile will change angle, and thus, so will the cavity shape?

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Re: Current Earth Tech

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Zer0 Kay wrote:"But if that is how the rocket steers how would it work for a supercav fighter?" ...


Um...wouldn't that be called an aerodynamic stall?
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Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Borast wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:"But if that is how the rocket steers how would it work for a supercav fighter?" ...


Um...wouldn't that be called an aerodynamic stall?


As in no air for the jets or as in no air over the airfoils? Now since you've asked that I'm thinking both as the "air" in a natural cavity is none... but any gas in a artificial cavity should still be able to produce lift within the bubble.
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Re: Current Earth Tech

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slade the sniper wrote:Aren't there steering vanes/control surfaces? Stick the control surface into the more dense medium (water) to turn in that direction? Right fin into water to turn right?
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/shkval.htm
Alternately, the fins work as they would in air, so as the body of the missile adjusts (within the cavity) the nose of the missile will change angle, and thus, so will the cavity shape?

-STS


No. That article talks about how the Shkval pendulums off the walls at 230mph. I guess subfighters could be that "slow" but I imagine they're as fast underwater as they are above so ricocheting at... well any speed for a manned projectile is no bueno.

So I was looking thorugh articles on the Shkval and it was funny to see how early artist rendering produced a forced perspective of the torpedoes appearance creating an inaccurate image that was speculated on and then pictures of the actual torpedo came out and they're different but you can see how from a given angle the incorrect image evolved.
This became this which became this. All because a picture of this was take from a rear 3/4 view.
It isn't a cone it is a standard torpedo shape with most of the body the same diameter, differing with the last bit toward the front narrowing down to the bubble emitter.
A picture is worth a thousand words... sometimes they're all the wrong words.
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Re: Current Earth Tech

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
Borast wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:"But if that is how the rocket steers how would it work for a supercav fighter?" ...


Um...wouldn't that be called an aerodynamic stall?


As in no air for the jets or as in no air over the airfoils? Now since you've asked that I'm thinking both as the "air" in a natural cavity is none... but any gas in a artificial cavity should still be able to produce lift within the bubble.


Um I hate physics, just to put that out there...however, a "cavity" in air would be considered a vacuum, wouldn't it? No fluid over the flight surfaces means no lift. However...if that *is* true... I wouldn't want to be in that craft, when the vacuum collapsed. The impact could possibly crush the air frame. If you were to introduce any fluid into the "bubble" in order to produce lift, it still wouldn't, or at least not as much as it could, because it would be moving at nearly the same speed as the generating craft. Sort of the same way you can't put a fan on a real boat and sail on a calm day.

About the only way you could fly that way is to create a vacuum over the top of the flight vehicle, "lifting" it, or by creating a vacuum immediately in front of the craft, while somehow preventing the vacuum from collapsing outside of that small arc immediately in front of the nose. Something like the hyper fast STL drive James Hogan used in his Giants trilogy. (Essentially creating artificial an black hole in font of the ship for it to fall into...while moving the black hole away from the ship.)

Anyway...the only aerodynamic craft I can think of that was moving fast enough to create an actual vacuum was the STS...and the vacuum it created was rather small. (Only a few tens of cubic metres if even that much.)
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Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Borast wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Borast wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:"But if that is how the rocket steers how would it work for a supercav fighter?" ...


Um...wouldn't that be called an aerodynamic stall?


As in no air for the jets or as in no air over the airfoils? Now since you've asked that I'm thinking both as the "air" in a natural cavity is none... but any gas in a artificial cavity should still be able to produce lift within the bubble.


Um I hate physics, just to put that out there...however, a "cavity" in air would be considered a vacuum, wouldn't it? No fluid over the flight surfaces means no lift. However...if that *is* true... I wouldn't want to be in that craft, when the vacuum collapsed. The impact could possibly crush the air frame. If you were to introduce any fluid into the "bubble" in order to produce lift, it still wouldn't, or at least not as much as it could, because it would be moving at nearly the same speed as the generating craft. Sort of the same way you can't put a fan on a real boat and sail on a calm day.

About the only way you could fly that way is to create a vacuum over the top of the flight vehicle, "lifting" it, or by creating a vacuum immediately in front of the craft, while somehow preventing the vacuum from collapsing outside of that small arc immediately in front of the nose. Something like the hyper fast STL drive James Hogan used in his Giants trilogy. (Essentially creating artificial an black hole in font of the ship for it to fall into...while moving the black hole away from the ship.)

Anyway...the only aerodynamic craft I can think of that was moving fast enough to create an actual vacuum was the STS...and the vacuum it created was rather small. (Only a few tens of cubic metres if even that much.)

No. Apparently the way natural cavitation works is likened to soda or champaign releasing bubbles. A prop in the water produces a high pressure area and a low pressure area on the blades the pressure difference produces thrust, it isn't because the blades are pushing the water. If the low pressure is too low then it releases the gasses diffused in the liquid. So natural cavitation does indeed produce "air" not a vacuum. The cavitation produced by a shykval and any larger concepts would require a means of artificially producing super cavitation. But yes even the o2 bubble collapsing on a prop says it is the equivalent of hammer strikes

https://www.google.com/search?q=cavitat ... 0&dpr=2.63

Putting the cavity anywhere other than around the whole object is pointless as the water would produce too much drag. The entire idea of cavitation is that the cavity produces less drag than the water and that is what allows the object in it to "fly". The issue of lift you Brin up is valid though so whatever the vehicle is would have to be rocket powered with maneuvering thrusters.
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