Board index » MDC Worlds » Rifts®

 


Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
 Post subject: Power Systems in Rifts
Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 3:48 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
Posts: 10986
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
So, I had low energy nuclear reaction systems brought to my attention by Toc-Rat today....and it has been apparently under research since 1989....

I have always assumed that Rifts "nuclear" power was a form of fusion of some kind and now I am convinced it would be of this type.

In addition, I believe gasoline, diesel, and oil would actually be non existent by even 2098 let alone during the time of Rifts in the 100+PA wither everything being "electric", Solid Oxide (the best new thing to actually come out of Northern Gun One imo), or LENR systems.
Why? Think about it? We are seeing real push by all manufacturers to get away from fossil fuel usage as we know it. All auto manufacturers are pledging to switch to alternative non-fossil fuel powered vehicles in less than 2 decades from now....and most lubricants are now synthetic as well. Meaning by 2098 odds are such things (gas, diesel, and oil) would be such low use that most refineries would be shut down I'd say.

This would also fix one of my bigger buggaboos in Rifts....any entity with refining capacity would be constantly attacked if not having their refining capacity destroyed outright. Which in Rifts with the plethora of armed adversaries, would not be that difficult to pull off.
Plus...I very much like seeing an actual "power system" listed as opposed to "electric", "nuclear".

IE

Power System - K9T-J7R LEN Reactor/P987T-X SO Power Drive/76ht9 Solid State Electrical Power System

As opposed to:

Power System - Nuclear/Solid Oxide/Electric

It adds to the "realism" of the setting for me.

So thanks Toc-Rat, for pointing out to me. It will let me expand further my/our "fixing" of setting based issues.

_________________
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree :D

Email - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, Facebook - Jaymz LaFlamme, Robotech.com - Icerzone

\m/


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:06 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:46 am
Posts: 4217
Location: SDF-1, Macross Island
Are those the same thing as nuclear batteries?

-STS

_________________
My skin is not a sin - Carlos Wallace
A man's rights rest in three boxes. The ballot box, jury box and the cartridge box - Frederick Douglass
I am a firm believer that men with guns can solve any problem - Inscriptus
Any system in which the most populated areas have the most political power, creates an incentive for areas that want power to increase their population - Killer Cyborg


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:18 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
Posts: 10986
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
Nope.

_________________
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree :D

Email - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, Facebook - Jaymz LaFlamme, Robotech.com - Icerzone

\m/


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:47 pm
  

User avatar
Rifts® Trivia Master

Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 3:37 pm
Posts: 13465
Location: Missouri
Sourcebook 4 establishes that the coalition's nuclear power systems are fission, as they use plutonium byproducts produced from them to make their nuclear weaponry.

world book 5 states that any nation with access to nuclear power technologies could produce depleted uranium and U-rounds.

at least early on, rifts nuclear power appears to have been envisioned as fission based.

_________________
Author of Rifts: Deep Frontier (Rifter 70)
Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
Image
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.

-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:20 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
Posts: 10986
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
So?

I'm pretty sure my post infers "my" way it should be.

I know what's in the books. I think much of that is bunk and due to serious lack of straight up not thinking things through as to how things are in the second half of the 21st century. I mean sb4 also has the CS obtain F-bloody-14s ffs. Mercs has m48 tanks being refitted.....they've been gone for decades and what are still around are rusted hulls at best now and were even 20+ years ago otherwise are at best museum pieces.

_________________
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree :D

Email - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, Facebook - Jaymz LaFlamme, Robotech.com - Icerzone

\m/


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:10 pm
  

User avatar
Champion

Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 7:51 pm
Posts: 2135
Location: Ontario, Canada
Comment: HTTP 404 [witty comment not found]
jaymz wrote:
So, I had low energy nuclear reaction systems brought to my attention by Toc-Rat today....and it has been apparently under research since 1989....

I have always assumed that Rifts "nuclear" power was a form of fusion of some kind and now I am convinced it would be of this type.

In addition, I believe gasoline, diesel, and oil would actually be non existent by even 2098 let alone during the time of Rifts in the 100+PA wither everything being "electric", Solid Oxide (the best new thing to actually come out of Northern Gun One imo), or LENR systems.
Why? Think about it? We are seeing real push by all manufacturers to get away from fossil fuel usage as we know it. All auto manufacturers are pledging to switch to alternative non-fossil fuel powered vehicles in less than 2 decades from now....and most lubricants are now synthetic as well. Meaning by 2098 odds are such things (gas, diesel, and oil) would be such low use that most refineries would be shut down I'd say.

This would also fix one of my bigger buggaboos in Rifts....any entity with refining capacity would be constantly attacked if not having their refining capacity destroyed outright. Which in Rifts with the plethora of armed adversaries, would not be that difficult to pull off.
Plus...I very much like seeing an actual "power system" listed as opposed to "electric", "nuclear".

IE

Power System - K9T-J7R LEN Reactor/P987T-X SO Power Drive/76ht9 Solid State Electrical Power System

As opposed to:

Power System - Nuclear/Solid Oxide/Electric

It adds to the "realism" of the setting for me.

So thanks Toc-Rat, for pointing out to me. It will let me expand further my/our "fixing" of setting based issues.


Very valid points about the push to make the switch away from gas, but not exactly the hot button topic when the game was originally written.
I like your points about fission and the power sources from Northern Gun.

_________________
SkyLilysNatureTV
Dispelling negative myths about snakes and other reptiles through education and understanding. All things nature, other animals, gluten free living with a little mix of the vegetarian & vegan lifestyle. Check us out!

Instagram: @skylilysnaturetv
Twitter: @skylilynaturetv
Youtube: skyliliysnaturetv


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:11 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
Posts: 10986
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
It may not have been a hot button topic but honestly they didn't even try to think through a century of advancement and it shows....badly.

_________________
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree :D

Email - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, Facebook - Jaymz LaFlamme, Robotech.com - Icerzone

\m/


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:12 pm
  

Hero

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:21 am
Posts: 1285
jaymz wrote:
So?

I'm pretty sure my post infers "my" way it should be.

I know what's in the books. I think much of that is bunk and due to serious lack of straight up not thinking things through as to how things are in the second half of the 21st century. I mean sb4 also has the CS obtain F-bloody-14s ffs. Mercs has m48 tanks being refitted.....they've been gone for decades and what are still around are rusted hulls at best now and were even 20+ years ago otherwise are at best museum pieces.


the reality is until you get up to something like the NGR Devastator bot, or the coalition deaths head transport or bigger a fusion power plant flat out will NOT fit. on the other hand some form a fission power plant will because you can fit a RTG more or less in a coffee can, granted at that size its not likely to have a very high power output, but golden century, and certain aspects of rifts tech likely would increase the effectiveness and power generation efficiency.

if you look at a fission power plant it really boils down to a heat source from some nuclear reactive material, a power generation section today these are steam driven turbines, but advanced thermal electric systems (like thermal couples) that generate power based on temperature differentials could potentially replace them.

Fusion reactors are going to inherently be bigger and i personally just don't see a way to shrink them down to the required size.
1st a fusion reactor is typically going to run on hydrogen, or deuterium which is bulky to store... unless you can somehow store it in a metallic form which as far as we know is only natural at insane pressures, like near the core of jupiter and if the containment fails you are looking at a pretty massive explosion.
next you need to establish a fusion reaction which also typically needs massive heat and pressure to trigger the fusion cycle
then you need to have a power generation section, such as tokamak or thermal electric, or thermal turbine or similar.
all in all the fusion reaction is not something we can sustain, and make it generate more power than it takes to trigger, and get to run at a net positive IE generate more energy than it takes to start the reaction.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:14 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
Posts: 10986
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
Low energy nuclear reactions prove that large size is incorrect as a necessity....

_________________
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree :D

Email - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, Facebook - Jaymz LaFlamme, Robotech.com - Icerzone

\m/


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:16 pm
  

User avatar
Priest

Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Posts: 29662
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
I just go with it being a kind of nuclear reaction that modern science hasn't discovered yet.

_________________
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:24 pm
  

Hero

Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:08 am
Posts: 1035
Comment: They/Them
In a home game I introduced the notion that during the 2050s, following the ideological splintering of the Saudi state along roughly Salafi(western)/Twelver(eastern) lines, heavy investment by the former into the nascent science of petrobotany led to the development of hydrocarbon-rich strains of Phoenix dactylifera whose fruit was suitable for trivial refinement into a variety of distillates. These palms, commonly referred to by world news as "Diesel Dates", saw heavy planting from Tabuk to Jizan in hopes of both revitalizing the ever-shrinking oil market and achieving economic parity with the resource-heavy Eastern Province. Thus while nuclear energy became increasingly ubiquitous petroleum never completely fell out of use, and cultivation of the particularly hearty Diesel Date spread by the 2070s to other regions with suitable climate such as Columbia, Sonora, Baja California, Arizona, and North Africa. While some regions involved in DD agriculture, such as the parts of Southern Florida swept up in the Hellfire&Gasoline Baptist movement of the 2080s, were submerged following the tumult of the Cataclysm, in others the trees have continued to flourish.

This allows for not only gasoline use ~109 P.A. by those explicitly described as doing so such as the Republic of Columbia, it gives a handy excuse for limited use in regions like the American Southwest, as well as the creation of new groups. One of the latter that I've been mulling over is the Daughters of the True Phoenix found in the former Morocco and Algeria, whom while barely acknowledged as a pest by the vastly more powerful Phoenix Empire have made inroads into the Iberian. Another is a group of Eandroth, otherwise rare on Rifts Earth, for whom a rift during a rare gathering of disparate tribes left several thousand stranded on the eastern edge of the Red Sea. Upon being taught the basics of magic by a group of heretical scholars exiled from the Trinitite Academy of Maktabat Al-Riyad Alnawawia, the group's rogues learned to incorporate smoke-belching components to their silonar mounts, and now patrol the coast in quickly growing semi-autonomous groups of reptilian dieselpunk cyborg dinoriders.

_________________
I've got your signature right here.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:29 pm
  

User avatar
Hero

Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 6:09 pm
Posts: 1496
Location: Las Vegas...by way of hell
Fission reactors are large items. As in about a square mile of space according to the DOE. Not something you'd fit in just about any mobile structure short of a giant spaceship.

LENR is the small enough to fit in a PA. If real world science matters to your or your group, rather than the hand wavey science fiction magic, its the logical choice. If you're happy with, its a magic nuclear fission reactor, fine, go with that.

_________________
Toc Rat: The Col. wants us to install what in his tank?!
Col.'s Driver: A cigarette lighter so he can plug in his cellphone charger.
Toc Rat: :frust:

RainOfSteel wrote:

An excellent insight that hits the nail on the head with a rune-hammer.

Winter wrote:
One of the best thought out answers on this forum I have read for a while :ok:


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 1:17 pm
  

Hero

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:21 am
Posts: 1285
Toc Rat wrote:
Fission reactors are large items. As in about a square mile of space according to the DOE. Not something you'd fit in just about any mobile structure short of a giant spaceship.

LENR is the small enough to fit in a PA. If real world science matters to your or your group, rather than the hand wavey science fiction magic, its the logical choice. If you're happy with, its a magic nuclear fission reactor, fine, go with that.

no the fission reactor is not a huge square mile thing
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=htt ... AdAAAAABAD

thats a picture of the nuclear power plant near st helens oregon
the little domed building over by the other buildings? that is the reactor building. with the reactor inside it.
the great big huge fat tower? that is (was as its now demolished) was the cooling tower
https://cdn.britannica.com/s:690x388,c: ... eactor.jpg

thats a "functional diagram" of how it worked when it was operational.

now if the right technologies were developed, you could potentially eliminate the massive water cycle systems and shrink or eliminate some of the weight and bulk of those parts.
also that was an 1,130 megawatt power plant, this is also 1.13gw if you consider
How much electricity does an American home use? In 2019, the average annual electricity consumption for a U.S. residential utility customer was 10,649 kilowatthours (kWh), an average of about 877 kWh per month.
this means that that 1 power plant was designed to power ~1,288,483 homes at the same time
it also ran on uranium fuel systems, so if you cut the power output, and had a more efficient read smaller and lighter you could also cut down on the size of the reactor and its support systems as well.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:56 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 6474
Location: WI
Toc Rat wrote:
Fission reactors are large items. As in about a square mile of space according to the DOE. Not something you'd fit in just about any mobile structure short of a giant spaceship.

LENR is the small enough to fit in a PA. If real world science matters to your or your group, rather than the hand wavey science fiction magic, its the logical choice. If you're happy with, its a magic nuclear fission reactor, fine, go with that.

Nuclear Powered Aircraft plans exist (AFAIK no actual flights, and aircraft are "bomber size") from the 50s, the main hang up isn't the reactor but the shielding. Never mind nuclear powered naval craft (submarines and other surface ships).

SNAP-10A Space Nuclear Reactor flew in 1965, and it was roughly x2 the height and width of a technician in an available photo. There was also research/proposal in the early 90s for a new US space Fission Reactor (it was cancelled and I forget the name). Then there are the NERVA rockets engines (w/fission reactors) that where built and tested (big certainly, but not square mile of space).

Russia has flowed several space nuclear reactors (fission) on reconnaissance satellites.

The Ford Nucleon Card from the 1950s, while only a concept proposal, was to be powered by a fission reactor just like a Submarine (main stumbling block was in miniaturization).

These space examples are not RTGs, but full fledged Fission Reactors. So putting Fission systems into most examples in Rifts seems possible based on size, the main issue comes from the smaller platforms (Borg, PA) and the necessary shielding, but neither are necessarily impossible as lightweight effective shielding might be a property of "MDC Materials" and it depends also on how small one can miniaturize the technology.

jaymz wrote:
I have always assumed that Rifts "nuclear" power was a form of fusion of some kind and now I am convinced it would be of this type.

The opposite for me based on the endurance of the "nuclear" plants, though both types certainly have a reactor life time of use, a fusion system would run out of fuel faster than a fission plant.

I do agree the addition of Fuel Cell technology is a nice addition to the setting, but Electrical has always been a short way of saying it runs on Electrical Batteries. I do sort of agree about them doing something closer to RT where a given sub-system was named would be nice, but its doubtful it would happen and for gaming purposes I do not know if it would add much to playability (emersion yes, playability not so much as that level of detail while nice could be covered by "common sense" IMHO).

Gasoline/hdyrocarbon fuels might fall out of mainstream use in the Golden Age, but that doesn't mean it could not make a comeback during the dark times by some means or even become more viable due to "resupply" via Rifts. Refinery security is a valid point.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:51 pm
  

User avatar
Champion

Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 3176
Location: Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy
LENR is cold fusion by another name. It doesn't work in real life. Thankfully, we can handwave it in Rifts.

_________________
Hotrod
Author, Rifter Contributor, and Map Artist
Duty's Edge, a Rifts novel. Available in PDFor Print.
Check out my maps here!
Also, check out my Instant NPC Generators!
Like what you see? There's more on my Patreon Page.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:58 pm
  

User avatar
Rifts® Trivia Master

Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 3:37 pm
Posts: 13465
Location: Missouri
Hotrod wrote:
LENR is cold fusion by another name. It doesn't work in real life. Thankfully, we can handwave it in Rifts.


yeah, it is like reactionless drives. every time someone claims to have figured out how to do it, on attempts to replicate it by other researchers, it turns out to be a fraud, or testing error. and the hypothesis being used to explain the initial (spurious) results through math and physics usually turns out to have serious structural flaws.

_________________
Author of Rifts: Deep Frontier (Rifter 70)
Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
Image
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.

-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:05 am
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
Posts: 10986
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
Except LENR does actually work........you might want to read up on it more.

_________________
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree :D

Email - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, Facebook - Jaymz LaFlamme, Robotech.com - Icerzone

\m/


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:40 am
  

User avatar
Champion

Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 3176
Location: Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy
jaymz wrote:
Except LENR does actually work........you might want to read up on it more.

Hey, I would love it if LENR or cold fusion was real, but I'm not tracking any successful replication of the cold fusion experiment (or LENR).

The problem comes down to probabilities. While it's theoretically possible for fusion to happen at cold temperatures via the laws of quantum mechanics (via a phenomenon known as quantum tunneling to overcome both nuclei's Coulomb barriers), this is an incredibly rare event at best, and one incredibly rare fusion event in a million years does not a nuclear power source make.

If we can handwave some future technology that makes quantum tunneling much more likely, then LENR might be viable.

_________________
Hotrod
Author, Rifter Contributor, and Map Artist
Duty's Edge, a Rifts novel. Available in PDFor Print.
Check out my maps here!
Also, check out my Instant NPC Generators!
Like what you see? There's more on my Patreon Page.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:12 am
  

User avatar
Hero

Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 6:09 pm
Posts: 1496
Location: Las Vegas...by way of hell
Did even more research since info direct from the US DOE wasn't good enough.

Here is a chart comparing multiple different power generators in terms of how many square meters they occupy.

https://thebreakthrough.org/issues/ener ... footprints

The smallest nuclear fission reactor requires 1200 square meters. Thats 1.2 square kilometers or about .46 sqaure miles. Call it half a square mile.

_________________
Toc Rat: The Col. wants us to install what in his tank?!
Col.'s Driver: A cigarette lighter so he can plug in his cellphone charger.
Toc Rat: :frust:

RainOfSteel wrote:

An excellent insight that hits the nail on the head with a rune-hammer.

Winter wrote:
One of the best thought out answers on this forum I have read for a while :ok:


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:28 am
  

User avatar
Champion

Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 3176
Location: Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy
Toc Rat wrote:
Did even more research since info direct from the US DOE wasn't good enough.

Here is a chart comparing multiple different power generators in terms of how many square meters they occupy.

https://thebreakthrough.org/issues/ener ... footprints

The smallest nuclear fission reactor requires 1200 square meters. Thats 1.2 square kilometers or about .46 sqaure miles. Call it half a square mile.


Your unit conversion math is incorrect. A square kilometer is 1,000 meters by 1,000 meters. Thus, a square kilometer is 1,000,000 (one million) square meters. 1,200 square meters is 0.0012 square kilometers. 1200 square meters is the same as 30 meters by 40 meters. This is maybe a quarter of a football field in terms of surface area.

That said, it is true that nuclear power packs more power into smaller spaces than anything else, and 1200 square meters is not even close to how small of a footprint they can take up. The smallest fission reactors are the size of a coffee can. I've personally done radiation experiments with such a reactor (the building it was in was considerably larger, maybe equivalent in footprint to 1200 square meters), but you don't have to put such a reactor inside such a building of that size. Nuclear submarines pack their reactors into a much smaller footprint than 1200 square meters. Another example of a nuclear reactor in a smaller footprint is NASA's Kilopower program.

There is a limit to how small you can go, and that is the requirement to have a critical mass of fissile material to sustain a chain reaction. There are some very exotic nuclear fuels that can form lighter critical masses than uranium or plutonium, but those would be extremely difficult to produce in significant quantities.

_________________
Hotrod
Author, Rifter Contributor, and Map Artist
Duty's Edge, a Rifts novel. Available in PDFor Print.
Check out my maps here!
Also, check out my Instant NPC Generators!
Like what you see? There's more on my Patreon Page.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:27 pm
  

User avatar
Champion

Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 3176
Location: Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy
A decent overview of LENR. Nifty idea if it can ever be reproduced/demonstrated.

If.

_________________
Hotrod
Author, Rifter Contributor, and Map Artist
Duty's Edge, a Rifts novel. Available in PDFor Print.
Check out my maps here!
Also, check out my Instant NPC Generators!
Like what you see? There's more on my Patreon Page.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:45 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
Posts: 10986
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
According to this about 100 or scientists across the world have run there own experiments with a 90%+ reproducible rate. (161 out 170 experiments reproduced results)

https://mathscholar.org/2019/03/lenr-en ... doscience/

_________________
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree :D

Email - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, Facebook - Jaymz LaFlamme, Robotech.com - Icerzone

\m/


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:20 pm
  

User avatar
Champion

Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 3176
Location: Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy
Excess heat in an experiment does not a power source make, especially if all that’s detected is a few Watts. A square meter of sunlight imparts over a thousand Watts, so all kinds of experimental conditions could explain the results of the experiments in your link. Assuming an otherwise-undetectable low-energy nuclear reaction is responsible for any other unexplained excess heat is not supported by the evidence. There should be evidence like brehmstrahlung X-rays and characteristic gamma rays detected with a spectrometer. Some evidence of the actual nuclear reaction is needed.

Additionally, I'd need to see some demonstration that this system can generate energy on its own. See, a power source requires more than excess heat. You need the reaction induced to produce more power than you had to put in in the first place (aka ignition), and that power must be harvestable at a reasonable efficiency, like 20% or so.

I’m not saying that a low energy nuclear power source is impossible; I just haven’t seen anything indicating that it’s real or viable as a means of generating power. What I do see is a lot of studies observing excess heat and assuming undetected nuclear reactions are responsible. That’s not an approach I can support.

_________________
Hotrod
Author, Rifter Contributor, and Map Artist
Duty's Edge, a Rifts novel. Available in PDFor Print.
Check out my maps here!
Also, check out my Instant NPC Generators!
Like what you see? There's more on my Patreon Page.


Last edited by Hotrod on Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:55 pm
  

Hero

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:21 am
Posts: 1285
Hotrod wrote:
Excess heat in an experiment does not a power source make, especially if all that’s detected is a few Watts. A square meter of sunlight imparts over a thousand Watts, so all kinds of experimental conditions could explain the results of the experiments in your link. Assuming an otherwise a undetectable low energy nuclear reaction is responsible for any other unexplained excess heat is not supported by the evidence. There should be things like brehmstrahlung X-rays and characteristic gamma rays and X-rays detected with a spectrometer among the evidence presented. Some evidence of the actual nuclear reaction is needed, as some demonstration that this system can generate energy on its own.

See, a power source requires more than excess heat. You need the reaction induced to produce more power than you had to put in in the first place, and that power must be harvestable at a reasonable efficiency, like 20% or so.

I’m not saying that a low energy nuclear power source is impossible; I just haven’t seen anything indicating that it’s real or viable as a means of generating power. What I do see is a lot of studies observing excess heat and assuming undetected nuclear reactions are responsible. That’s not an approach I can support.


after the cold fusion flop in the early 2000's the people still doing the "research" now no longer advertise their results very much, and they definitely do NOT submit their results to any peer reviewed journals or similar. all their "documentation" is posted in places where the people in the community take them at their word and don't really challenge the results, because they don't won't really stand up to REAL examination.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 5:54 am
  

Explorer

Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:48 am
Posts: 197
jaymz wrote:
So, I had low energy nuclear reaction systems brought to my attention by Toc-Rat today....and it has been apparently under research since 1989....

I have always assumed that Rifts "nuclear" power was a form of fusion of some kind and now I am convinced it would be of this type.

In addition, I believe gasoline, diesel, and oil would actually be non existent by even 2098 let alone during the time of Rifts in the 100+PA wither everything being "electric", Solid Oxide (the best new thing to actually come out of Northern Gun One imo), or LENR systems.
Why? Think about it? We are seeing real push by all manufacturers to get away from fossil fuel usage as we know it. All auto manufacturers are pledging to switch to alternative non-fossil fuel powered vehicles in less than 2 decades from now....and most lubricants are now synthetic as well. Meaning by 2098 odds are such things (gas, diesel, and oil) would be such low use that most refineries would be shut down I'd say.

This would also fix one of my bigger buggaboos in Rifts....any entity with refining capacity would be constantly attacked if not having their refining capacity destroyed outright. Which in Rifts with the plethora of armed adversaries, would not be that difficult to pull off.
Plus...I very much like seeing an actual "power system" listed as opposed to "electric", "nuclear".

IE

Power System - K9T-J7R LEN Reactor/P987T-X SO Power Drive/76ht9 Solid State Electrical Power System

As opposed to:

Power System - Nuclear/Solid Oxide/Electric

It adds to the "realism" of the setting for me.

So thanks Toc-Rat, for pointing out to me. It will let me expand further my/our "fixing" of setting based issues.





Just because there is a push for things in some areas does not mean that the push exists in all areas. While I'm sure many places could build electric cars, I don't think they'd be up to the standards of today. Part of the problem is lower technology. The other part of the problem, which is exists here too, is a lack of infrastructure. That's why so much power is being packed into the batteries now making them very expensive. Sure they go faster and further, but that technology is out of reach for many.

Granted a lack of infrastructure will exist even in 109 PA, so fuel will be an issue. Still, I think lower tech areas will use lower technologies which would include fossil fuels. Personally, I'm surprised that other fuel types aren't mentioned, like propane.
It's just gas and diesel. I'm even more surprised by the lack of steam power. It can be very low tech or very advanced and depending on how advanced a wider variety of fuels can be used to generate seam.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inspiration_(car)#:~:text=Inspiration%20holds%20the%20World%20Land,Marriott%20in%20the%20Stanley%20Steamer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_M ... ge_Company

127mph in 1906 in a steam powered car. I'm not sure my car can do that now.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:37 pm
  

User avatar
Champion

Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 3176
Location: Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy
I would expect to see something akin to modern gasifier energy in many locations, where you can heat almost any combustible substance to release burnable gases, collect those gases, and use them as a fuel in a gasoline/diesel engine. It may not be the most efficient method, but it works, and it can greatly simplify your supply chain in a post-apocalyptic scenario.

_________________
Hotrod
Author, Rifter Contributor, and Map Artist
Duty's Edge, a Rifts novel. Available in PDFor Print.
Check out my maps here!
Also, check out my Instant NPC Generators!
Like what you see? There's more on my Patreon Page.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:46 pm
  

User avatar
Champion

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 5:10 pm
Posts: 2508
Razzinold wrote:
jaymz wrote:
So, I had low energy nuclear reaction systems brought to my attention by Toc-Rat today....and it has been apparently under research since 1989....

I have always assumed that Rifts "nuclear" power was a form of fusion of some kind and now I am convinced it would be of this type.

In addition, I believe gasoline, diesel, and oil would actually be non existent by even 2098 let alone during the time of Rifts in the 100+PA wither everything being "electric", Solid Oxide (the best new thing to actually come out of Northern Gun One imo), or LENR systems.
Why? Think about it? We are seeing real push by all manufacturers to get away from fossil fuel usage as we know it. All auto manufacturers are pledging to switch to alternative non-fossil fuel powered vehicles in less than 2 decades from now....and most lubricants are now synthetic as well. Meaning by 2098 odds are such things (gas, diesel, and oil) would be such low use that most refineries would be shut down I'd say.

This would also fix one of my bigger buggaboos in Rifts....any entity with refining capacity would be constantly attacked if not having their refining capacity destroyed outright. Which in Rifts with the plethora of armed adversaries, would not be that difficult to pull off.
Plus...I very much like seeing an actual "power system" listed as opposed to "electric", "nuclear".

IE

Power System - K9T-J7R LEN Reactor/P987T-X SO Power Drive/76ht9 Solid State Electrical Power System

As opposed to:

Power System - Nuclear/Solid Oxide/Electric

It adds to the "realism" of the setting for me.

So thanks Toc-Rat, for pointing out to me. It will let me expand further my/our "fixing" of setting based issues.


Very valid points about the push to make the switch away from gas, but not exactly the hot button topic when the game was originally written.
I like your points about fission and the power sources from Northern Gun.
Nor is it clear nuclear will come out ahead let alone survive the coming century.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:44 pm
  

User avatar
Wanderer

Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:29 pm
Posts: 59
On the subject of combustion engine fuels, I've always thought that some sort of bio-fuel from algae and a grass of sort would be something done in the wilderness. There'd be a great industry with it in certain areas.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:14 am
  

User avatar
Rifts® Trivia Master

Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 3:37 pm
Posts: 13465
Location: Missouri
Shamrock 'Slinger wrote:
On the subject of combustion engine fuels, I've always thought that some sort of bio-fuel from algae and a grass of sort would be something done in the wilderness. There'd be a great industry with it in certain areas.


the best fuels fore ICE powerplants in rural areas?
grain or vegetable based cooking oils for Diesel plants, and high proof Alcohol (moonshine) for the rest.
both can be produced within a community (at least in smaller levels) using agricultural byproducts.. in fact you can actually make both from most of the same raw materials (once you are done pressing the oils out of the veggies or grain, you can put what is left in a still to ferment it and process it into alcohol.. and since it does not need to be drinkable by people you don't have to worry quite as much about the act type of alcohol being put out)

though i could also see bio-sourced Methane being popular in some areas where farming is less viable than herding. plenty of manure in the animal pens which you can shovel into a methane digester.. plus the processed dung can still be used as fertilizer.. and can be hauled to farming areas using trucks powered by that very methane

_________________
Author of Rifts: Deep Frontier (Rifter 70)
Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
Image
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.

-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website


          Top  
 
 
Post new topic Reply to topic



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot]


Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group