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Query, vampires in space? Is that a thing that can happen in Rifts/the Megaverse?

Sunlight vulnerability, is it a function of the amount of radiation? Checking Dr. Wik E Pedia, it appears that "the extraterrestrial solar radiation is 1367 watts per square meter (the value when the Earth–Sun distance is 1 astronomical unit), then the direct sunlight at Earth's surface when the Sun is at the zenith is about 1050 W/m2, but the total amount (direct and indirect from the atmosphere) hitting the ground is around 1120 W/m2.[4] In terms of energy, sunlight at Earth's surface is around 52 to 55 percent infrared (above 700 nm), 42 to 43 percent visible (400 to 700 nm), and 3 to 5 percent ultraviolet (below 400 nm).[5] At the top of the atmosphere, sunlight is about 30% more intense, having about 8% ultraviolet (UV),[6] with most of the extra UV consisting of biologically damaging short-wave ultraviolet.[7]"

This would mean that vampires can not tolerate 1120 W/m2 of "sunlight."

So, does this mean that a vampire can just chillout and dance around on Titan? What about in actual space? Can they survive vacuum while hiding in the shadow of a spaceship?

Anyway, rando question b/c I've been up like 30 hours

-STS

When I GM I set the damage limit to the Heliopause, because that is the extent of the influence that a sun has. Remember that the damage is done by sunlight is a mystical aspect of the sun's light. Not some mundane energy quantity.

I have to agree with Drew and using the Heliopause is probably the best bet to use as we know other stars don't effect them when they're on Earth so there has to be a cut off, and why not that, and the fact that's it's 'mystical' damage so going with the amount of radiation seems off to me.


Daniel Stoker

Do we know that other stars effect them? Everything says sun light, our star is the only Sun if it said solar energy our star is also the only Sol so also the only Solar system. Do vampires get hurt from other stars within their heleopause... I'd have to say PB says yes as they are hurt on Palladium... unless Palladium's star is just a portal that opens to the Sun and moves across their sky. Then again Gerseidi are also a different kind of vampire...

I start with Vampires being supernatural beings, so any science or physics about the sun is summarily ignored, it's all about the metaphysics. Vampires are harmed by the life giving power of the sun. Reflected sun light from the moon isn't associated with life giving powers so it does nothing. Those little dots in the night sky are not affiliated with life so they do nothing either.

Now this does lead to other metaphysical questions such as worlds that don't see the Sun as a life giver. I would have to scour the books [likely phase world supplements ] to see if there were any other vampire locations with non-earth-like relationships with the sun. But I've often had a fantasy world where people mostly live underground during the day, and only go to the surface at night, because the sun is too dangerous. On that world the sun would be considered the vampires ally.

Another metaphysics is the concept of night and day. In space such considerations don't exist. We do know that in the eternal twilight of the Dark Lands [Nightbane] Vampires don't have to sleep, however that may be a specific exception instead of a rule. Depending on if they must sleep or not will either amplify or remove the "soil of the homeland" problem. The rules as written along with the metaphysics do emphasize "daylight hours". It also seems to be relative to where the vampires is currently. After all a vampire born in Mexico would otherwise have different day light hours than one born in Alaska, despite having the same continental homeland.

Ultimately yes it's possible but it would be exceedingly rare that the vampire would be willing to live in space. It would be like a wild animal in a cage. The phycological need to feed [to hunt] combined with the elemental nature of the creature, they're not going to want to.

Or to put it another way if Spaaaaceee madness is a problem for humans, it's much worse for vampires.

Perhaps, if the star in question has natural (sentient?) life on one of it's planets, and those beings see that star as a life giving force, then the light from that star affects vampires.
So, vampires go to...random planet and there are natural/sentient life forms there that have a mostly benevolent view of their star as a "life giving" part of their cosmology...then that light would damage vampires if they go to that star system.
If vampires go to some star system with no natural/sentient life, the vampires have no fear because there is no mystical connection between life and that star.

I can see vampires now having their own star charts with little addenda that says "natural life giving star, dangerous" or "no natural sentient life, safe" next to each star system.

-STS

No problem...
Just remember that if they are older than 100 years, they can't tolerate space trav...
Never mind, wrong game!

Seriously though...without an Official Statement from PBs, I'd say vamps are perfectly safe in Interstellar Space, but once they enter a star's area, they are fully vulnerable to direct sunlight. However, standing on an open deck on a clear day, with the sun in the sky, on Pluto...I'd say it'd be like a human and a sunburn. Takes a while. Once you've passed Jovian orbit (inbound), the damage would start occurring fast enough to matter.
Whether a vamp could withstand hard vacuum; I'd say no. However, they could survive longer than a human could because they needn't breathe, and they regenerate. Remember, we won't explode like we swallowed a stick of TNT, but our bodies will rupture and boil over. Hollywood lies! lol! Maybe 3D6HP per melee? (Does not regenerate until they return to an "aired-up" section?) Hey! New way for a master vamp or vamp intelligence to store extra wild and secondaries!!! In orbiting caskets!

Safe but nothing to eat.

Another (Similar) option is that "Sun Worshipers" has imbued the sun with certain supernatural powers in the same way worship works for some gods.

No one sees globe of daylight as a life give, at least I haven't heard of TW globe of daylight gro lamps, and yet they keep vampires at bay.

I think there's a case to be made for the Sun's damage tapering off with the inverse square law, since it damages vampires because it's a source of lifegiving light and it kinda makes sense that a vampire wouldn't take as much damage on the surface of a world never gets enough sunlight to sustain life.

But I think there's also a case to be made for Drew's idea of just saying it does full damage until you reach an arbitrary "edge of the solar system" limit like the heliopause, because that'll involve a whole heck of a lot less bookkeeping. The sun is holy, you take damage as long as you're within its sphere of influence, and it doesn't matter whether you're standing on Earth or floating in orbit around Charon.

The other big kicker though would be the need for vampires to sleep during the day, because it's always day time unless you're either on the night side of a celestial body or in its umbra (the region behind it where the body blocks out the sun). Vampires aren't gonna be able to do much in the way of in-system spaceflight unless they either have fairly sophisticated computer guidance or they rely on human servants.

There is also that the Sun is the Very Symbole of Sun Gods (ra....& whatever).

As such the GoD would act as a Holy Symbol when considering vampires. And since The Sun is about a trillion+ times bigger than a GoD its power as a symbol has a much greater effect & effect area.

That's why I would go with a star's habitable zone. Sunlight kills vampires because they're agents of death and the sun provides life. Outside of the zone the area's either too hot and/or irradiated, or too cold for there to be life.

The magic spell, Globe of daylight, does create true daylight, but it is NOT powerful enough to destroy a vampire. However the magic globe of light is powerful enough to ward off most vampires.

I guess it depends on your definition of powerful. If you want to play it as a science it's because it is small and not putting off that much energy. If you want to play the Incriptus way it's because the magic portion isn't powerful enough. I could endorse the idea that if the star in question isn't invested in enough PPE it would still keep 'most' vampires at bay despite not destroying them.

I've run into this in my own game, and after much consideration I chose the Geranium Method.

I ruled that if a Geranium could stay alive when exposed to the naturally occurring light, that light was sufficient to destroy a vampire. Any star that emits a warming light will destroy a vampire unless the GM determines, through the totally unscientific method of imagination, that a houseplant would probably die there.*

The same conditions would apply in a spacecraft, if the geranium in the window would live, the vampire would burn up.

As for surviving in space unprotected, Vampires are magical, invulnerable, shapechanging demons with a sunlight vulnerability. They would be unaffected by vacuum, radiation, or cold, though they could freeze solid, I suppose. The real problem is, in space or any planet without a thick atmosphere, sunlight will quickly heat objects (and people) to hundreds of degrees. Sunlight vulnerable vampires would be ash instantly if exposed to the sun in the vacuum of space. If a vamp wanted to go crawl on the skin of a ship, though, I would allow it to. The V would need to avoid exposure to the sun, staying sheltered by the ship and always in shadow.


*Before anyone drops a pedantic answer regarding atmosphere, radiation, or foreign microbes killing said plant, assume imaginary plants have good imaginary conditions other than the imaginary sun, K?

Why a Geranium? Genuinely curious...

-STS

Geraniums are hardy plants, winter resistant, and very easy to care for in a simple pot on a windowsill. Also, I just think they're pretty.

The star's habitable zone, even in our own solar system though is not fully defined (some say it could include Venus and Mars IIRC). Said Habitable Zone also varies by the type of star.

I do agree though, distance is a factor. If it wasn't all the stars in the night sky would count as "sunlight", or even the "moonlight" as its nothing more than reflected sunlight. One might also wonder if the atmosphere (or something in the atmosphere) is a factor to in the mystical result of Sunlight damaging vampires, which if true would mean raw exposure in the vacuum of space wouldn't count.

Sure daylight, but it does it say sunlight? Even then sunlight created sunlight would be no different than starlight since by theories above, it was never associated with life.

What would be funny is if growlights kept vampires at bay ND that the original use for GoD is as a Mystic growbulb and because it was originally used in such a manner for a long period of time it now keeps vamps at bay. So then how much longer would the grow lamps and the GoD have to be used as life givers before they started to cause vamps damage?

Is the Sun at its limit of damage? Does a star that has been worshipped more or grown more life than the Sun cause vamps more damage?

Does it say that? No. I believe the term daylight is being used where you are expecting sunlight, so this is just nitpicking vocabulary. The meaning is still clear enough, though, in the fantasy game. If you go back to the Fantasy 1E game where the spell (maybe?) was first printed, it is described as "true daylight". Being true daylight gave it a similar power over those affected by the sun as being out during the day. "Because it is daylight, it can ward off most vampires, keeping them at bay just beyond the light's radius." It doesn't say anything about destroying undead, because it is assumed they will not enter the radius to begin with.

This differentiates the Globe of Daylight spell (available to wizards and fire warlocks) from the Create Light spell (air warlocks), and the Light ward (diabolists), which are described differently. Create Light is specifically labeled as equivalent to candle light, not daylight. Light wards are specifically labeled as being equivalent to torch light, not daylight.

Whether that means anything or not for Rifts would certainly be a GM call, but I would find it pretty reasonable to have anything based on Globe of Daylight (within the radius) to have the same affect as daylight (sunlight).

Another silly thought: Suppose a person was born on and lived their entire life on a spaceship. A vampire comes aboard and turns the person into a vampire. What do you line their sleeping coffin with if they've never even seen soil?

Dust particulates.

Vampires are elemental creatures, the soil requirement is supernatural, not cultural.

I suspect that a vampire unable to bed down on soil in space is as screwed as one on earth, going mad, running about and generally being insane. I would even assert there's a high probability of the mad vampire going out an airlock in the insane search to find soil to lay on. The need for soil of the homeland gets even harder when the vampire is lightyears from said home, likely dooming them on their first sunrise.

I tend to take this from a purely elemental point of view as PB vamps are frequently described in those terms. Sunlight hurts vampires and they require home soil for sleep. If the soil is sealed in a box they can't just sleep on the box to get the effect and if they can't see the sun it doesn't hurt.

The problem with using the Heliopause is that its geometry is highly variable and is, as I understand it, largely dependent on the orbit around the galaxy. It is also so far out that to the naked eye it is indistinguishable from any other star. Even the termination shock, which has a much more regular geometry, is too far out for this IMO.

I also don't think that the affect of the light from a star has anything to do with how people view it. The elemental nature of it is what matters. The holy symbol is all that is necessary in PB for the symbol to work on vamps, faith is not required as it is in some IPs. How sentient beings view dirt has no impact on vamps but they still require it to sleep and will die without it.

In my games I tend to treat the damage from the sun, or any star, as fading over distance. I think I cut the damage by 25% on Mars, by 50% the belt and disappearing almost entirely after the orbit of Saturn or Uranus. Because vamps are almost always NPCs you don't need specific rules by distance or luminosity you just need to keep it consistent.

The fun I had is with the sleep cycle. A ship or station in the shadow of a planet or large moon would be considered night and vamps could operate at full but as soon as it was in the direct line of sight to the star they needed to sleep or suffer penalties.

I had a lot of fun with my 2nd Phase World adventure with this. Long story less long they boarded a drifting ship in orbit of a moon. When the ship went into the shadow vamps came out all over and they were screwed, they had nothing to stop vamps as they treated this as a Star Wars game. well they fought for a few minutes and just when it got bad the ship came out of the shadow and the vamps were so weakened that they were able to escape. They started carrying anti-supernatural gear after that.


For me I don't allow vamps to be created in this situation unless there is an actual greenhouse or soil on board. In which case they vamps "home" would be where that soil came from. If it is from multiple locations or manufactured in some way then the vamp is not created. You can slow kill all you want but if you can not do the final step of burying them in actual soil then they just die. IMHO of course.

Aaaaaaand so my point is the theory that it has to be from a star that produced life or was worshipped doesn't stand.

And globe of daylight doesn't list damage because it doesn't cause any not because vampires stay away. Any game designer worth their salt would expect a player who is worth theirs to try casting globe of daylight at least once on a staked vampire and would give damage. Claiming it is because the vamp would never enter, is lazy and would make all damage useless to print as it should be assumed the vampire would never intend to be hit.

WB 1 says repeatedly that globe of daylight doesn't do any damage even though it is true daylight.


It even says that it won't hold Master Vampires at bay.

Hmm, I suppose you have a point there. It has never come up in any games I have been in, although vampires haven't entered into many of them. I guess we were all stuck on the stakes, garlic, holy symbols, and silver!

Because the of globe of daylight serves as a literary globe of daylight to the vampires that are players, keeping players at bay from using it that way.

But is it a portal to whatever star the character lives under or is it a portal to the star they were born under or the first star the character knew? Is it a portal to a worshipped or lifegiving star or is it its own mini star? Is it a portal to a star that is only moderately worshipped with minor life thereby only giving it enough power to keep vampires at bay but not harm them? "Daylight" doesn't have to mean starlight. Heck it could be the artificial light on a generational ship used for simulating day and night cycles. "Daylight" is too generic, allowing for artificial light to be used. "Sun" light is too specific, only allowing light from Earth's star to qualify.

Maybe so, but a player being a vampire isn't something I have experienced, and kind of doubt I will at this point (in this game system anyway). And, if there ever would be, there are alternative forms of magical light (as I posted above) that are vampire friendly.

Slade...Off topic...but - Since the thread is in Spaaaaace...
Do all engine exhausts look like a flickering fake flames?
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reBzU8E_Ajk)

Sorry that isn't what I meant.
I'll try again.

The literal description of GoD is a literary GoD in the figurative vampireness of literal players in their attempt to literally damage literary vampires.

In other words the very description is keeping the players at bay from using it to cause damage to vampires.

Or in other, other words...
It (GoD) doesn't say it can (cause damage) so don't bother trying.

I find it funny that Prysus found a place where it is specifically listed as doing damage to vampires. Though it is damage per minute instead of damage per melee.

Edit: I thought maybe I should add that I'm not laughing at you. It is just... a very "Palladium Books" circumstance. If you want to play with Globe of Daylight not doing any damage to vampires, you certainly can. If you want to play with Globe of Daylight doing damage to vampires, you certainly can. And both ways of going about it can be correct because it is addressed in the most Palladium way possible. It isn't listed with the spell, but only with vampires in a specific setting source book.

Yeah. The phrasing is odd enough that I could read it either way:
1. Cast inside a vampire's coffin [with the vampire inside] will inflict 3d6 damage per minute of [the vampire's] exposure inside [such a small, enclosed area]
or
2. Cast inside a vampire's coffin [with or without the vampire present] will inflict 3d6 damage per minute of concentrated daylight inside the vampire's resting place.

I guess I'd lean slightly toward the first, unless there is some other mention of being able to damage vampires by exposing their coffin to daylight.
It also could be a combination: you have to have the globe of daylight AND the vampire specifically inside the vampire's resting place in order for this to work.

So it couldn't possibly do 1d8 or 2d4 per melee. Silly Palladium.

LOL Wait a minute... does that mean that it only damages Vampires... in coffins... in Palladium? Daaaaang and I just ran into a vampire... in a sarcophagus in Rifts.

I want to know why it needs to be "opened a crack". Why can't you cast it inside the coffin and then nail it shut?

Maaaaaybeee?

Because if the coffin is open, you cannot cast spells into the coffin from the outside.

AFTER you cast the spell, nail away.

Oh... I was thinking they expected people to cast it outside the coffin and it had to be cracked to let the light in. LOL... so this is an line of thought that can go into a coffin on wheels...