Crazies and millennium trees?

[The ineffible GM]

Is there any reason, given their abilities of restoration and resurrection, that a millennium tree could not heal the implants of of a crazy's head?

And if it did, what is the general consensus on what effect that would have?
Would it heal the insanities the crazy already had?
Would any of the crazies bonuses or psychic abilities remain?

What say you?

[Mack]

IMHO,

The implants would fall out.
The insanities would fade away over time. (The implants were causing them.)
The character would lose the psionics, bonuses, and physical abilities.

[Shark_Force]

crazies already have exceptional regenerative abilities. if regular regeneration was going to expel the implants, the implants would already be expelled. i'd say nothing short of effects capable of fully regenerating a body or explicitly healing a brain are likely to have any significant effect at all; the implants are in the brain, those big knobs sticking out of their head are for show. you might be able to make the body reject the knobs, which would likely be unpleasant and would probably annoy the crazy (they're not needed but the vast majority of crazies apparently want you to know what they are and sort of consider them to be almost a badge of honour), but the actual brain implants would remain.

[Killer Cyborg]

IMHO,

The implants would fall out.
The insanities would fade away over time. (The implants were causing them.)
The character would lose the psionics, bonuses, and physical abilities.

Yup.

[eliakon]

No and No

Since removing a Crazies implants does not cure their insanities.
And since Millennium Trees are not listed as having the ability to cure insanity...
No, they can not cure their insanities.

When we look at the various magical healing and resurrection spells, the ones that say that they will remove implants are pretty specific on that feature. And none of them are similar to what the Trees have...
So again. No

Basically the Tree can heal their damage. They can raise them from the dead.
But if you want to remove their implants you need a doctor or one of the few very specialized spells.
And if you want to cure their insanities you will need a psychologist, or one of the few very specialized spells or psionic powers or other such abilities.

[The ineffible GM]

No and No

Since removing a Crazies implants does not cure their insanities.
And since Millennium Trees are not listed as having the ability to cure insanity...
No, they can not cure their insanities.

When we look at the various magical healing and resurrection spells, the ones that say that they will remove implants are pretty specific on that feature. And none of them are similar to what the Trees have...
So again. No

Basically the Tree can heal their damage. They can raise them from the dead.
But if you want to remove their implants you need a doctor or one of the few very specialized spells.
And if you want to cure their insanities you will need a psychologist, or one of the few very specialized spells or psionic powers or other such abilities.

So...really you should get someone to take a knife to the Crazy's head and carve out the implants entirely. And then get the tree to resurrect them.
Strictly speak, by the rules that is...

[eliakon]

No and No

Since removing a Crazies implants does not cure their insanities.
And since Millennium Trees are not listed as having the ability to cure insanity...
No, they can not cure their insanities.

When we look at the various magical healing and resurrection spells, the ones that say that they will remove implants are pretty specific on that feature. And none of them are similar to what the Trees have...
So again. No

Basically the Tree can heal their damage. They can raise them from the dead.
But if you want to remove their implants you need a doctor or one of the few very specialized spells.
And if you want to cure their insanities you will need a psychologist, or one of the few very specialized spells or psionic powers or other such abilities.

So...really you should get someone to take a knife to the Crazy's head and carve out the implants entirely. And then get the tree to resurrect them.
Strictly speak, by the rules that is...

That would work yes.
Though you will still have to deal with the insanities.

Cybernetics are not easy to get rid of. It is almost like the system is designed to make it so that you can't easily undo cybernetic conversion and that doing it to those who are unwilling is virtually impossible.
Almost like that.
If you want to undo major reconstruction you have to undo it. Simple healing magic is not how you undo it. And frankly at the end of the day... that is what the Trees have.
They explicitly can not heal insanity.
They explicitly can not regenerate limbs
They can only heal lost SDC/MDC/HP, Reattach lost limbs, and raise the dead if they died no less than 4 hours ago.
They are not even as good as some general spell magic!
So why would they be able to accomplish feats that are beyond those superior spells?
It fails the logic test.

If you want to fix a Crazy you are going to have to do it the normal way.

[Axelmania]

Wasn't there a psi power somewhere which temporarily relieved them?

[eliakon]

Wasn't there a psi power somewhere which temporarily relieved them?

Yes. You don't have to use a psychologist no.
You can use a mage with the right spell. Or a psi with the right power. Or basically any X with the right Y.
But just using 'generic heal number 73' doesnt cut it. Even if it is being cast by a really big tree.

[The ineffible GM]

Firstly, I want to thank everyone for their thoughts on the matter.
Eliakon, I think you are right about how things are written in the book, there are a couple of points that are pretty strictly written and explicit in their limitations.
I would argue that "logic tests" are often a poor way to evaluate the specifics of rules in Palladium's system, but your points are all technically correct as written.
For the game I am running I chose to be a bit looser with my interpretation of some of these aspects, but I wanted to be able to consider the matter as thoroughly as possible.
So for my game, I did allow the tree to remove the implants entirely. Many of the bonuses have, or will shortly with time, disappear.

My reasoning:

A) In this particular instance they aren't dealing with quite your normal tree, but with Yggdrasil itself, so I feel I can give a little leeway for being a little more potent than normal.

B) I feel like if the Millenium tree is able to bring someone back to life if they really wanted to, then recreating the effects of carving out chunks of someone's brain AND THEN healing them is not unreasonable.

C) From the way the Crazy is described, I feel that most of the combat bonuses would disappear immediately because they no longer have the implants to help maintain coordination and enhanced senses, I am going to have the actual physical strength and speed and toughness fade with time, and not fade entirely. My thought is that much of that is from the bio-feedback that developed the Crazy into being essentially an "extremely fit (physically) and athletic" person. Much like a super version of the Natural or Gifted Psychic from Beyond the Supernatural. The implants aren't there to maintain it anymore without a lot of exercise, but if the character lives a fit lifestyle they will be able to maintain at least some of the raw stat increase that the implants helped them get in the first place. I will also likely allow the character to regain some of the psychic powers over time, (even though this is not strictly supported by the rules) under the premise that she was actually given these implants by the Angel of Death over in Mindwerks, and was likely chosen for the procedure based on her ‘psychic potential’.

D) I am not going to have the tree heal the insanities, but now that the implants are removed I will allow for them to be healed through time and therapy. Without the implants to create and enforce these insanities, I think that it is fair to say the mind could heal in its own natural course (as much as these things can be healed, of course).


Anyway, I wanted to say thank you to everyone for the feedback and thoughts, and thought you’d be interested to know how I chose to go ahead with it.

[Mack]

No worries. Sounds like you plotted a reasonable course.

[eliakon]

Firstly, I want to thank everyone for their thoughts on the matter.
Eliakon, I think you are right about how things are written in the book, there are a couple of points that are pretty strictly written and explicit in their limitations.
I would argue that "logic tests" are often a poor way to evaluate the specifics of rules in Palladium's system, but your points are all technically correct as written.
For the game I am running I chose to be a bit looser with my interpretation of some of these aspects, but I wanted to be able to consider the matter as thoroughly as possible.
So for my game, I did allow the tree to remove the implants entirely. Many of the bonuses have, or will shortly with time, disappear.

My reasoning:

A) In this particular instance they aren't dealing with quite your normal tree, but with Yggdrasil itself, so I feel I can give a little leeway for being a little more potent than normal.

Ahhh yeah, Yggdrasil can do what Yggdrasil feels like doing

B) I feel like if the Millenium tree is able to bring someone back to life if they really wanted to, then recreating the effects of carving out chunks of someone's brain AND THEN healing them is not unreasonable.

A perfectly fine (and to be honest reasonable) use of Rule Zero.
To be fair... when they were first written their healing powers were amazing. Now? They are mid tier B-list. For my games I tend to kick up their abilities a notch or three myself.

C) From the way the Crazy is described, I feel that most of the combat bonuses would disappear immediately because they no longer have the implants to help maintain coordination and enhanced senses, I am going to have the actual physical strength and speed and toughness fade with time, and not fade entirely. My thought is that much of that is from the bio-feedback that developed the Crazy into being essentially an "extremely fit (physically) and athletic" person. Much like a super version of the Natural or Gifted Psychic from Beyond the Supernatural. The implants aren't there to maintain it anymore without a lot of exercise, but if the character lives a fit lifestyle they will be able to maintain at least some of the raw stat increase that the implants helped them get in the first place. I will also likely allow the character to regain some of the psychic powers over time, (even though this is not strictly supported by the rules) under the premise that she was actually given these implants by the Angel of Death over in Mindwerks, and was likely chosen for the procedure based on her ‘psychic potential’.

That sounds like a very good and logical take on the subject.
Well reasoned enough in fact that I think I will nab it for my "GM Bits Box"

D) I am not going to have the tree heal the insanities, but now that the implants are removed I will allow for them to be healed through time and therapy. Without the implants to create and enforce these insanities, I think that it is fair to say the mind could heal in its own natural course (as much as these things can be healed, of course).

That sounds like the best option myself.
Healing the insanities would, to me, make the cure... well to 'easy' (if asking Yggdrasil for a gift and getting it is 'easy')
The mind is a complex thing and the character will need to work through undoing the trauma and damage that has been done.

Anyway, I wanted to say thank you to everyone for the feedback and thoughts, and thought you’d be interested to know how I chose to go ahead with it.

Always nice to hear back on how the pontification of cane waving old timers advise of the forums is used.