Q about Instant Wardrobe

[znbrtn]

so.. what you're saying is, the power somehow discerns between guns and wrenches? now i know that hu2 isn't known for its no nonsense nature, but it does at least try to make a little sense. i would suggest combining the two powers, so they'll make *some* sense.

[Daniel Stoker]

so.. what you're saying is, the power somehow discerns between guns and wrenches? now i know that hu2 isn't known for its no nonsense nature, but it does at least try to make a little sense. i would suggest combining the two powers, so they'll make *some* sense.

And the fact that you're hiding clothes in some limbo dimension makes sense in the first place?



Daniel Stoker

[znbrtn]

and what reason is that?

[znbrtn]

i would agree with richeta on this one. in any case, i do see why you would say this, gadrin. the fact is, though, that in my experience, it is better to leave the choice between the gm and the player, rather than leave it to 5 random people on a message board.

[znbrtn]

the last time someone in my group left it to a message board, he almost got to use his sn ps in aps plasma.

[znbrtn]

i thought it was funny too.
and yeah, that's happened to my group a lot as well with about every game on the planet

[znbrtn]

it does state in the power description that the character stores his heavy battle armor in his3rd limbo. would he NOT have weapons in there?

[Daniel Stoker]

That's a non sequitor if I ever read one.

And you still didn't adress the fact that wrenches and scuba gear
can be stored but a weapon "as part of the outfit" could not.

Actually I was responding to branigans comment about the two powers not making sense... because they're super powers that don't really 'make sense' in the first place now do they? Unless you can explain how a guy can shoot firebolts out of his nostrils to me.

As to your actual question, because putting weapons in the clothing wardrobe would make it overpowered? The weapon storage power goes up every other level in number of items soted while the wardrobe goes up every level. I thought it was rather obvious why it's not the same for the powers, and it just seems like you wanted an easy out to store more weapons.



Daniel Stoker

[znbrtn]

so an extra pair of .45's is unbalanced?

[znbrtn]

tell unbalanced to disintegration!!!

[Daniel Stoker]

so an extra pair of .45's is unbalanced?

It depends, considerig some of the 'guns' floating around in Hero's it definatly could be.



Daniel Stoker

[znbrtn]

I've got one for you.

Instant wardrobe/weapon implies objects have to be switched in order to access what's in the closet.

So how do you get stuff into the closet in the first place? There's nothing
inside to switch with what's outside.

i've often wondered the same thing.

[Daniel Stoker]

You put your 'first' suit in and end up Naked. Then to get it out again you have to replace it. Each time you pull something 'out' even if it's nothing you have to put something in.


Daniel Stoker

[znbrtn]

that's a nice explanation, thag'.

[NMI]

OK, well here is how I see it. Some may agree, some may disagree but this is how I rule on this power as a GM.

Instant wardrobe lets you store OUTFITS, not just shirts and pants. For example, you could store a scuba outfit complete with tanks, fins, mask, etc... as long as it doesn't exceed the weight limit. You could also store a "Roofers Outfit" complete with tool belt, tools, etc...
So, to store a "Gunslinger's outfit" complete with hat, trenchcoat, boats and two revolvers is fine. But, when you want to use them, you have to take the WHOLE outfit. No mixing and matching. So, viewing it in this light, it makes sense to be able to store weapons as accessories to an outfit.

Hope that helps.

works for me.

[csyphrett]

Instant wardobe says it will store everything the character is wearing as long as it weighs less than 20 + 5 pounds.

Instant weapon stores weapons and things such as magazine clips, bullets, rockets as long it doesn't weigh over 50 + 10.

Remember that you can put anything into a weapon limbo.
CES

[csyphrett]

You ask what will happen if you switch wardrobes and you have weapons in your pocket. They would remain in the same spot. If you have a pocket in roughly that area, they would still by in the pocket of your new uniform. If there is no pocket, it would either be expelled outward and thrown away as the new clothing took it's place, or fuse with the new clothing. GM's choice I suppose.

This part is wrong.
CES

[Daniel Stoker]

Well, you are obviously taking this too seriously and refuse to listen to others point of view. I was polite and offered to agree to disagree. You refused. Whether it's an ego problem with you or something else at this point it's irrelevent to me. I refuse to argue this with you since you refuse to accept someone else's opinion. I just hope we never end up in a game together because I don't think you are the kind of player or GM that I would enjoying playing with. I'm done with this conversation.

You're trying to get around the rules for a power man. You have to know there is a difference between weapons and clothing and that your question is just a 'how do I get around the no weapon' clause of the power. If there WASN'T an instant weapon power I could see where you're coming from, but they obviously wrote two powers for a reason man.



Daniel Stoker

[csyphrett]

Everything you have in your pockets is changed when you change clothes.
Instant wardrobe works just like the Creeper's quick change.

For those of you who don't remember the Creeper, he was a hero created in the late sixties by Steve Ditko for DC. He was a reporter named Jack Ryderwho had been beaten at a costume party by some guys he was investigating. A scientist found him near death, and gave him two inventions to help him heal up. One of those was a gadget that switched his normal clothes for his masquerade costume.

Everything in your pockets, or built in your clothes goes into one pocket dimension when another uniform comes out with whatever is in that.

That's why you're wrong, Ty.

CES

[znbrtn]

both powers are, in fact, DIFFERENT. ONE exchanges HELD items, and ONE exchanges ENTIRE COSTUMES, along with possesions!also, we've been using the wrong power for examples. if instant weapon could tell if an item was not a weapon, then it would NOT let you put a lamp in a limbo. it goes both ways! it does NOT differentiate between weapons and items!

[Dr. Doom III]

both powers are, in fact, DIFFERENT. ONE exchanges HELD items, and ONE exchanges ENTIRE COSTUMES, along with possesions!also, we've been using the wrong power for examples. if instant weapon could tell if an item was not a weapon, then it would NOT let you put a lamp in a limbo. it goes both ways! it does NOT differentiate between weapons and items!

Bingo.
You ware 50 guns and knives on your costume you get them.

[ZEN]

both powers are, in fact, DIFFERENT. ONE exchanges HELD items, and ONE exchanges ENTIRE COSTUMES, along with possesions!also, we've been using the wrong power for examples. if instant weapon could tell if an item was not a weapon, then it would NOT let you put a lamp in a limbo. it goes both ways! it does NOT differentiate between weapons and items!

Bingo.
You ware 50 guns and knives on your costume you get them.

Finally, that is what needed to be said.. both powers are different, and if one of those powers is not seen as being as good as the other.. too bad, thats what the random roll tables are all about.. if you don't use random rolls for power selection, I guess you never pick Instant Weapon as one of your character's powers.
It has been said and is generally agreed that there is some variation in the strength/effectiveness of the powers.. some are more powerful than others, I guess this case just underlines the point clearly, once and for all.

No need to have hissy fits about it people, sheesh!

[drewkitty ~..~]

As long as the 'costume dose not exceed the weight limit anything can be a part of it. Thou, if the weight limit would be exceded...then it would be the weapons that got left out of the change.

[Dr. Doom III]

Incorrect. Instant Wardrobe stores worn clothing and equipment. Instant Weapon exchanges items and equipment related to using the weapons, such as ammunition, holsters, ammo belts, missle cases, whatever. As for exchanging a brick or lamp, the power Instant Weapon does state that in addition to weapons, Tools and other types of gear may also be stored in said limbo, as long as they are held in the hands, or directly related to the items held in the hands.

You'd have an easier time making the argument that Instant Weapon can store clothing than you would with Instant Wardrobe storing weapons. The distinction is clear.

Ben, Zen, Doom, all opinions. Backy uppy the opinionatey. Hmmm... I don't think I've been hissing, just holding ground. Also, while they are different powers, powers are often named similarly for a reason, often to make a distinction. Instant Weapon, Instant Wardrobe. It's pretty clear they're related, and meant to do different things.

And since guns and other weapons are equipment it works for them.

[drewkitty ~..~]

So....if I had a Girlfriend listed under euqipment then I couuld store her as part of a instent wardrobe.......?

[Dr. Doom III]

So....if I had a Girlfriend listed under euqipment then I couuld store her as part of a instent wardrobe.......?

Do you carry her in your backpack for emergencies?

Obviously calling something equipment doesn’t miraculously make it so.

[Daniel Stoker]

And excuse me if it scounds like im gloating, I just like to back up my arguements with convincing arguements.

Except you're purposely ignoring the simple fact that they made 2 seperate powers, one for clothing and one for weapons. If they intended for weapons to work with the clothing power why did they make a weapon one that is more limited in how it goes up in levels?



Daniel Stoker

[Daniel Stoker]

More limited in how many and how much is stored. IF you want to take out everything that overlaps, a good portion of your minor powers are gone. All but one form of flight, all but one "generic" form of energy expulsion, Physical perfection (which is a lesser form of a few of the extraordinary powers), Sliding (a lesser form of X-Spd and Impact resistance)...the list could go on, but I dont have my book with me.

Except those are rather clear on what their powers are and how they overlap, so your comparisson is flawed.

The fact is that two powers *can* and in fact *do* overlap, some more then others. Its the basis of the power that matters. Like I have said before, this is a where and how much difference between the two powers. Otherwise you couldent put anything *but* weapons into a weapons limbo, where its plain in the text that you can put tools and *gasp* clothing into it as well! It just has to be held in the hands (or connected to whats in the hands).

You're making a distinction that wasn't meant to be made. Of course your gear is going to appear on your body with Wardrobe, otherwise the power itself looses a lot of it's use, so saying that they're different because one makes it on your body and one on your hand is hair splitting to get the result you want. Read Instant Wardrobe. You'll notice in example 1-4 not a single weapon is described. Why do you think they didn't mention a gun and gun holster too since that would be clothing and a weapon? You'll also note that with instant weapon you need to have something of comparable weight, even if the item in hand is a brick for a gun, while with clothing it just has to be a complete outfit.




Daniel Stoker

[Daniel Stoker]

Except those are rather clear on what their powers are and how they overlap, so your comparisson is flawed.

Not really. Your point was that they are different powers so they cant do the same thing, but in a different way. My point is that there are powers that do the same thing, but in a different way all the time.

My point is that one specifically talks about outfits and one is specifically about weapons. Or do you think since fire is a type of heat energy you should be able to shoot fire with EE: Energy? These two powers list seperate things, one talks about clothing, the other about weapons.

You're making a distinction that wasn't meant to be made. Of course your gear is going to appear on your body with Wardrobe, otherwise the power itself looses a lot of it's use, so saying that they're different because one makes it on your body and one on your hand is hair splitting to get the result you want.

Yes...thats the difference in the powers based off of what the wording is.

Yes, one lets you do clothing and one lets you switch weapons. Glad we agree.

Read Instant Wardrobe. You'll notice in example 1-4 not a single weapon is described. Why do you think they didn't mention a gun and gun holster too since that would be clothing and a weapon?

You will also notice they didnt mention Jewelry by name either, didnt name anything specific besides "equipment" and "Personal effects" which I have already pointed out would cover guns based on the definition of personal effects. They could have just as easily said "non-weapon items" or "non-weapon effects".

Nope, because that can be considered clothing that you're wearing and there isn't a power called 'Instant Jewelry' right below it, and Jewelry isn't going to affect the power balance in a game.

You'll also note that with instant weapon you need to have something of comparable weight, even if the item in hand is a brick for a gun, while with clothing it just has to be a complete outfit.

Ah...my mistake, 3 differences in the powers:D.

So see, different powers that were supposed to be used differently, the both switch things but not the same thing.



Daniel Stoker

[Daniel Stoker]

My point is that one specifically talks about outfits and one is specifically about weapons. Or do you think since fire is a type of heat energy you should be able to shoot fire with EE: Energy? These two powers list seperate things, one talks about clothing, the other about weapons.

The point was that it would have been easy enough to just say "Energy Expulsion" and let the person pick an type of energy...but they didnt, they listed all the different types and slightly changed them. It dosent change the base purpose, which is the same for all of them, but in a different way.

Except they were specific about it in those powers, much like they're specific about it in these two. One is clothing/equipment, the other is a weapon.

Yes, one lets you do clothing and one lets you switch weapons. Glad we agree

More accuratly, one switches wardrobe and the other lets you switch whatever you have in your hands.

For a weapon in your limbo, and then the item out to put the weapon back.

Nope, because that can be considered clothing that you're wearing and there isn't a power called 'Instant Jewelry' right below it, and Jewelry isn't going to affect the power balance in a game.

And neither is having to switch out everything on your person as opposed to everything in your hands (any more then having a instant-backup armor would).

It would if you're getting around the restriction in the amount of weapons you can carry in a limbo though. By level 4 you could have 4 outfits with multiple weapons on them if you use wardrobe, if you have instant weapon you can only have 2 large weapons or 4 small.

So see, different powers that were supposed to be used differently, the both switch things but not the same thing.

They are used differently...but, in essence, do the same thing. Wardrobe switches wardrobe (what is on your person in its entirety), the other switches whats in your hands (which can be much heavier).

Yes in essence, much like flight winged and flight wingless both let you fly, but one can't be used if you are in a confined room because your wings can't beat, while the other doesn't have to worry about things like that.



Daniel Stoker

[znbrtn]

This is like watching a ping pong match..
The only important difference between these two powers is that one creates a bodywide transportation of equipment into limbo, while the other only transports equipment held in the hands, plus there is a weight limit variation.

It does not matter if there are weapons involved or not, the power can't tell the difference!

Arguing over weapon or no weapon is illogical from an in-game perspective, so, it is up to the GM to decide, because as these powers are written, it leaves room for either option, but trying to prove catagorically one way or the other is impossible.
You may as well be arguing over religion.

i couldn't agree more.

[Tinker Dragoon]

OK, well here is how I see it. Some may agree, some may disagree but this is how I rule on this power as a GM.

Instant wardrobe lets you store OUTFITS, not just shirts and pants. For example, you could store a scuba outfit complete with tanks, fins, mask, etc... as long as it doesn't exceed the weight limit. You could also store a "Roofers Outfit" complete with tool belt, tools, etc...
So, to store a "Gunslinger's outfit" complete with hat, trenchcoat, boats and two revolvers is fine. But, when you want to use them, you have to take the WHOLE outfit. No mixing and matching. So, viewing it in this light, it makes sense to be able to store weapons as accessories to an outfit.

Hope that helps.

works for me.

Just reading through the prior posts, and cought this one on page 2. Forum mod agrees, I would consider that palladium word.

(EDIT)
Got word from Tinker Dragoon about this as well.

I see no reason why small weapons or bandoleers of ammo clips couldn't be part of an outfit. They just would always appear holstered, slung, sheathed, or otherwise stowed on the user's person, rather than in the user's hands. Also the weapons would have to fit in pockets, hang on belts, slide into boots, etc., so no bazookas or cases of ammunition, just pistols, knives, swords, throwing stars, bows, arrows, and the like.

Well don't go taking our word as official or anything, our opinions our purely our own. It just seems like the sensible answer to me

[csyphrett]

Pair of pistols in a holster was all I was asking this question
about in the first place.

Then they can switch out with the whole uniform, just as the Creeper example above, with instant wardrobe, or you can store them and pull them out with an excahnge of weight with Instant weapon.
CES

[ZEN]

Sweet!
I'd go with one small weapon at first level, a couple of sidearms at 3rd level, maybe something bigger (such as a crossbow slung across the back) at 5th level and beyond.. typical novice, mastery and expert levels of power and skill.

[csyphrett]

The effect is plainly stated under both powers.

Instant wardrobe states that anything the character is wearing switches with whatever he has stored. EVERYTHING he is wearing under the weight limit switches.

IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT HE IS WEARING!

All that matters is the WEIGHT of what he is wearing.

You can't get around that. You can't say it's a weapon so its excluded, or that item is excluded. Everything under the weight limit is stored when the other suit comes out.

Instant Weapon stores anything you want to store as long as it is under 50 pounds. Under the limitation to this power, it clearly states one weapon or ITEM of similar weight and size must be switched for what is already stored to retrieve it from limbo.

How clear is that? How many times does this need to be explained? How many times does this need to be dragged around?

It's in plain english. You don't need a dictionary. It's written so a 7 yr old can understand it.

[NMI]

This "discussion" ends now.