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 Post subject: Hey Wayne
Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 6:31 am
  

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PU2 has got me thinking and I was wondering you'll be using any of the Heroes options in the Atorians book. The Eugenics category and Super Invention category seem to appeal to the Atorians especially. I could imagine a number of special atorian operatives wandering around with Force Aura belts, Energy Expulsion Gauntlets, or Sonic Flight battle suits. Similarly, the Super Soldier table seems to fit the Atorian feel as well, massively upgraded warriors of destruction with special vehicles and weapon systems.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Wayne
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 9:38 pm
  

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Heres what Im talking about!! I would love to see Harware Characters mimic powers and this book could do it.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Wayne
Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:02 am
  

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Zenvis wrote:
Heres what Im talking about!! I would love to see Harware Characters mimic powers and this book could do it.


I dunno guys. Do we really need to see a technological means of being able to belch for 30 seconds? Or make someone resemble Silly Putty in body, thought, and deed? :D

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Wayne
Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:12 pm
  

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Kittenstomp wrote:
PU2 has got me thinking and I was wondering you'll be using any of the Heroes options in the Atorians book. The Eugenics category and Super Invention category seem to appeal to the Atorians especially. I could imagine a number of special atorian operatives wandering around with Force Aura belts, Energy Expulsion Gauntlets, or Sonic Flight battle suits. Similarly, the Super Soldier table seems to fit the Atorian feel as well, massively upgraded warriors of destruction with special vehicles and weapon systems.


I used a similar concept over on the Think Tank for Living Starships.

Take energy beings (similar to Bhlaze or Phantoms) that can make their own bodies, place them into a Gestalt (Rifter #10) and then induce super-powers into them.

Of course, if you can make something as big as a starship, a staff or belt or even home, shouldn't be out of the question. :-P

Living Starships

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Wayne
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 8:43 am
  

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Kittenstomp wrote:
PU2 has got me thinking and I was wondering you'll be using any of the Heroes options in the Atorians book. The Eugenics category and Super Invention category seem to appeal to the Atorians especially. I could imagine a number of special atorian operatives wandering around with Force Aura belts, Energy Expulsion Gauntlets, or Sonic Flight battle suits. Similarly, the Super Soldier table seems to fit the Atorian feel as well, massively upgraded warriors of destruction with special vehicles and weapon systems.


Considering the Eugenics and Super Soldier categories found in PU2 are absolutely unacceptable to me as a Heroes Unlimited fan, I really doubt that. The super soldier gets two full sets of powers, (either super or soldier categories and up to 4 rolls on the old style super soldier abilities table), plus they get a robotics class weapon and a minor hardware vehicle. That's like a secret operative with two full sets of super abilities or an alien with an extra set of full blown powers (which brings scary images to my mind since aliens can also be super soldiers, including abrasive, insect, and God forbid, mineral), but that pales compared to Eugenics, which allows you to stack on ten minor powers and two major powers, all for just less than the minimum possible budget. That's way out of control.

In short, I have carefully crafted the Atorians from the ground up and I will finish them that way. So don't count on finding anything from the PUs in those books. If I ever need to publish a villain who can take on a whole group of megas single handedly, you may see a mighty fine example of Eugenics, but until then, I'll be exercising my gamer's right to pass on information I feel is inappropriate for my gaming needs.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Wayne
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:26 am
  

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Doh!

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Wayne
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:57 am
  

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Wayne_Breaux wrote:
Considering the Eugenics and Super Soldier categories found in PU2 are absolutely unacceptable to me as a Heroes Unlimited fan, I really doubt that. The super soldier gets two full sets of powers, (either super or soldier categories and up to 4 rolls on the old style super soldier abilities table), plus they get a robotics class weapon and a minor hardware vehicle. That's like a secret operative with two full sets of super abilities or an alien with an extra set of full blown powers (which brings scary images to my mind since aliens can also be super soldiers, including abrasive, insect, and God forbid, mineral), but that pales compared to Eugenics, which allows you to stack on ten minor powers and two major powers, all for just less than the minimum possible budget. That's way out of control.

In short, I have carefully crafted the Atorians from the ground up and I will finish them that way. So don't count on finding anything from the PUs in those books. If I ever need to publish a villain who can take on a whole group of megas single handedly, you may see a mighty fine example of Eugenics, but until then, I'll be exercising my gamer's right to pass on information I feel is inappropriate for my gaming needs.


Don't beat around the bush, Wayne... how do you REALLY feel about this? :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Wayne
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:15 am
  

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Actually, I was a little apprehensive about the Eugenics hero when Kittenstomp posted the PU2 Eugenics characer example. Those were a LOT of powers. Wayyy more powerful than my personal home-brewed version.

As for the Super Soldier v2.0, I'll wait for my PU2 book to get here in a week or so and look it over (although from what I hear it's basically a Secret Operative with powers and special abilities).

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Wayne
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:44 pm
  

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One of the other problems with Eugenics is that you can buy all those minor powers and ALSO be a full blown Psi. You're a little limited in what super powers you can get but I can see someone making a REALLY sick character via Eugenics even without a max budget.



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 Post subject: Re: Hey Wayne
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:47 pm
  

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Then again.....the Eugenics category might not be so powerful after all....I mean let's look at the class it has the most in common with; Bionics/Robotics.

Artificial limbs automatically give you Extraordinary Strength (and I ignore the stupid PS limits for bionics. I also let Full Conversion and Brain Transplant borgs upgrade to Superhuman - equivalent strength - but they are big and clunky).

If you are a full conversion or Brain Transplant borg you are automatically immune to any powers or substances that solely affect a living flesh and blood body (including many poisons, many psionics and magic spells, cold, heat, Disruptive Touch, Bio-Ghost and so forth).

Your Bionic Armor can turn you into a walking tank - easily with as much raw SDC as an APS-Stone or Metal character.

You can practically buy yourself Extraordinary Speed with enough cash.

You can give yourself hover systems, jet packs and Jump boosters for flight and long leaps.

All the diffent bionic eye options can duplicate the different Super-Vision powers.

A bionic ear with Amplified Hearing duplicates the Hieghtened Sense of Hearing power.

Energy weapons can be combined to make tham a match for any Energy Expulsion power (one arm blaster not enough? - buy two!).

I'll be able to make a solid assessment one I get my hands on the book, but for anyone else who currently has it - what's your take on it?

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Wayne
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 4:01 pm
  

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Cardiac wrote:
I'll be able to make a solid assessment one I get my hands on the book, but for anyone else who currently has it - what's your take on it?


You make a good point there. The main downside of borgs vs. supers though is that the SDC of supers can regenerate on their own. Borgs need repairs.

Of course, if you play smart you won't need repairs very much. :ok:

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Wayne
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 4:24 pm
  

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Uncle Servo wrote:
Cardiac wrote:
I'll be able to make a solid assessment one I get my hands on the book, but for anyone else who currently has it - what's your take on it?


You make a good point there. The main downside of borgs vs. supers though is that the SDC of supers can regenerate on their own. Borgs need repairs.

Of course, if you play smart you won't need repairs very much. :ok:



Eugenics can also buy BETTER regeneration, and like I stated before they get access to all those abilities as WELL as a near full suite of psi-powers. Personally I think I'll be limiting if a Eugenic Character can get access to Psi or not dependent on what other stuff they want.



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 Post subject: Re: Hey Wayne
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 4:33 pm
  

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The Eugenics category has the following things going for them:
1) First off, it has access to the following powers: Lightning Reflexes, Living Anatomy, Healing Facotor (minus the PE bonus), Adhesion, Extraordinary Leaping, Extraordinary Strength, Superhuman Strength, Supernatural Strength, Impact Resistance, Heavyweight, Extraordinary PP, Longevity, Energy Expulsion (minor), Quills & Spines, Extraordinary Speed, Tentacles, most of the Heightened Senses, Rechannel & Expel Energy, and Super Energy Expulsion. The minimum cost for most of these powers is aroudn 500,000 dollars, with the more powerful abilities netting 1 million to 2 million.
2) Psionics can also be purchaces, but are prohibitively expensive, most being 1 to 2 million credits each.
3) Attributes enhancements can also be purchased but are prohibitively expensive as well.

Working against the Eugenics character is the following:
1) Once he's made, that's it. In comparison, cyborgs can continually upgrade themselves. Even if the Eugenics character fell upon the necessary facilities, it woud cost millions of dollars for him to get anything interesting whatsoever.
2) 30% of Eugenics characters have strange mental problems
3) 30% of Eugenics characters are also hideous
4) Most of the Eugenics powers that simulate super powers are Chimeric, meaning that they'll leave the superhero hideously transfigured anyhow.

I like the Eugenics character, I think some of the prices are a little wonky, but it's hard to get 'em all right. (For example, Ultrahearing costs 200,000 and Heightened Sense of Hearing only 50,000 which I'm guessing is a mistake.)

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Wayne
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 5:24 pm
  

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Hmmm....

Bionics:
Cannot Heal Itself (unless the repair system in the AU-GG is purchased)
Immune to many things that would harm flesh and blood bodies.
Can be upgraded and improved on

Eugenics:
Can heal
Is vulnerable to everything that will affect a normal person (unless a resistance is purchaced)
Cannot be upgraded at a later date.

The physical/mental abberations can occur in both classes.

Hmmm, as for the actual power of the modifications.....I will have to see if they stack up to the Bionics category.

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Last edited by Cardiac on Sat Mar 13, 2004 1:51 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Wayne
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 5:25 pm
  

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They can also buy regeneration too allowing them to regrow limbs. ;)



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 Post subject: Re: Hey Wayne
Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 1:53 am
  

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Well, if I see it's really that bad once i get the book - the easiest and most logical change would be to reduce the budget.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Wayne
Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 2:24 am
  

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I thought the Felias in AU was a powerful combo, since he's got psionics and super powers.

Can Eugenics get Multiple Beings Selves? You're talking about a small army once the main dude gets to a significant level...

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Wayne
Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:02 am
  

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Kittenstomp wrote:
The Eugenics category has the following things going for them:
1) First off, it has access to the following powers: Lightning Reflexes, Living Anatomy, Healing Facotor (minus the PE bonus), Adhesion, Extraordinary Leaping, Extraordinary Strength, Superhuman Strength, Supernatural Strength, Impact Resistance, Heavyweight, Extraordinary PP, Longevity, Energy Expulsion (minor), Quills & Spines, Extraordinary Speed, Tentacles, most of the Heightened Senses, Rechannel & Expel Energy, and Super Energy Expulsion. The minimum cost for most of these powers is aroudn 500,000 dollars, with the more powerful abilities netting 1 million to 2 million.
2) Psionics can also be purchaces, but are prohibitively expensive, most being 1 to 2 million credits each.
3) Attributes enhancements can also be purchased but are prohibitively expensive as well.


I really think that the Eugenics category should enhance a human or anything in nature (or a crossbreed - like the glow the Japanese genetic scientists in the RW got from a lightning bug and added to the fishes). Half those powers would be taken off in my campaign. An enhanced man will not have enough caloric energy to fire even one Energy Expulsion. I would also take Superhuman and Supernatural Strength off the list for a man (a bear or an elephant, respectfully, could have it though). Although a Eugenics human with Heavyweight could have Superhuman strength. Rechannel & Expel Energy is gone.

Quote:
Working against the Eugenics character is the following:
1) Once he's made, that's it. In comparison, cyborgs can continually upgrade themselves. Even if the Eugenics character fell upon the necessary facilities, it woud cost millions of dollars for him to get anything interesting whatsoever.


Wrong, it's called retroviral engineering. At least, in my campaign and the soon-to-be RW. 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Wayne
Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:16 am
  

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Jaegermeister wrote:
Kittenstomp wrote:
The Eugenics category has the following things going for them:
1) First off, it has access to the following powers: Lightning Reflexes, Living Anatomy, Healing Facotor (minus the PE bonus), Adhesion, Extraordinary Leaping, Extraordinary Strength, Superhuman Strength, Supernatural Strength, Impact Resistance, Heavyweight, Extraordinary PP, Longevity, Energy Expulsion (minor), Quills & Spines, Extraordinary Speed, Tentacles, most of the Heightened Senses, Rechannel & Expel Energy, and Super Energy Expulsion. The minimum cost for most of these powers is aroudn 500,000 dollars, with the more powerful abilities netting 1 million to 2 million.
2) Psionics can also be purchaces, but are prohibitively expensive, most being 1 to 2 million credits each.
3) Attributes enhancements can also be purchased but are prohibitively expensive as well.


I really think that the Eugenics category should enhance a human or anything in nature (or a crossbreed - like the glow the Japanese genetic scientists in the RW got from a lightning bug and added to the fishes). Half those powers would be taken off in my campaign. An enhanced man will not have enough caloric energy to fire even one Energy Expulsion. I would also take Superhuman and Supernatural Strength off the list for a man (a bear or an elephant, respectfully, could have it though). Although a Eugenics human with Heavyweight could have Superhuman strength. Rechannel & Expel Energy is gone.

Quote:
Working against the Eugenics character is the following:
1) Once he's made, that's it. In comparison, cyborgs can continually upgrade themselves. Even if the Eugenics character fell upon the necessary facilities, it woud cost millions of dollars for him to get anything interesting whatsoever.


Wrong, it's called retroviral engineering. At least, in my campaign and the soon-to-be RW. 8)


I would have liked it if they had handicapped the energy powers with a payload but they only did it for the casting gun. I think I might add a limited payload to the Energy Expulsion options. I also would have liked it if they'd made the more powerful abilities disfiguring. A lot of powers are listed as "chimeric" meaing they'll change your appearance amongst other things, but a lot of the straight-up superpowers didn't specify. I also thought it was kind of lame that they had the Extraordinary Speed power included, that to me is more of a straight up "superpower".

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Wayne
Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 4:22 pm
  

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Wayne_Breaux wrote:
Kittenstomp wrote:
PU2 has got me thinking and I was wondering you'll be using any of the Heroes options in the Atorians book. The Eugenics category and Super Invention category seem to appeal to the Atorians especially. I could imagine a number of special atorian operatives wandering around with Force Aura belts, Energy Expulsion Gauntlets, or Sonic Flight battle suits. Similarly, the Super Soldier table seems to fit the Atorian feel as well, massively upgraded warriors of destruction with special vehicles and weapon systems.


Considering the Eugenics and Super Soldier categories found in PU2 are absolutely unacceptable to me as a Heroes Unlimited fan, I really doubt that. The super soldier gets two full sets of powers, (either super or soldier categories and up to 4 rolls on the old style super soldier abilities table), plus they get a robotics class weapon and a minor hardware vehicle. That's like a secret operative with two full sets of super abilities or an alien with an extra set of full blown powers (which brings scary images to my mind since aliens can also be super soldiers, including abrasive, insect, and God forbid, mineral), but that pales compared to Eugenics, which allows you to stack on ten minor powers and two major powers, all for just less than the minimum possible budget. That's way out of control.

.


I completely disagree with your acessment on PU2 Wayne. I don't see it as any more powerful than The Mega in the main book or the three major three minors option either. I am totally suprised by this opinion from you. With your incredable imagination I expected a more open mind than this I guess. I did not expect this "Too Powerful" stuff from such a good writer. Oh well to each his own I guess. :(

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Wayne
Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 8:12 pm
  

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Preacher wrote:

I completely disagree with your acessment on PU2 Wayne. I don't see it as any more powerful than The Mega in the main book or the three major three minors option either. I am totally suprised by this opinion from you. With your incredable imagination I expected a more open mind than this I guess. I did not expect this "Too Powerful" stuff from such a good writer. Oh well to each his own I guess. :(


The mega is optional, not a 'normal' power category, despite what the GI and CS books may impress upon you (PU2 clarified that optional status specifically), and I have always had issues with them. Turning HU into a well balanced and interesting game without turning everything that breathes into a mega-mutant-goober-monster is the trait of a "good writer" and can be done by anyone (not just a writer) with an "imagination", let alone and incredible one. Giving people everything they could ever munch in one package rarely has anything to do with good writing nor imagination.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Wayne
Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 8:25 pm
  

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Wayne_Breaux wrote:
Preacher wrote:

I completely disagree with your acessment on PU2 Wayne. I don't see it as any more powerful than The Mega in the main book or the three major three minors option either. I am totally suprised by this opinion from you. With your incredable imagination I expected a more open mind than this I guess. I did not expect this "Too Powerful" stuff from such a good writer. Oh well to each his own I guess. :(


Quote:
. Giving people everything they could ever munch in one package rarely has anything to do with good writing nor imagination.


Nor does LIMITING HEROES UNLIMITED!!! Also lableing someone "MUNCH" just because they don't think something is too powerful because you like to "LIMIT' the way you play doesn't show great amounts of openmindedness on your part. Mega is optional?!?!? Well no kidding. GM's can allow or disallow Eugenics as well or cap it.
Oh and I guess Kevin disagreed with you on PU2 also since he put it out. Glad he is the final say on the issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Wayne
Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 8:36 pm
  

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this is getting ugly...

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Wayne
Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 8:44 pm
  

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Different visions of how the game is to be are a reality of the design process when you give it to multiple independent authors to write. I daresay it is a big part of why Mr. Siembieda has let other authors do the books, because he likes their diverse views. There's no need to make this a Breaux vs. Bellaire contest.

And it should be noted that Wayne didn't decry Powers Unlimited 2 for being too powerful or "munchy," he just said he didn't like it as a fan of the game, and thinks that some of the new categories are not balanced well against those in the main book. And it may be true, but that's not necessarily a good or bad thing, just a difference between authors.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Wayne
Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 8:58 pm
  

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Yukon wrote:
this is getting ugly...


You are right. I apologize and will bow out.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Wayne
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:00 am
  

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Wish I had the book, since my only info is based on Kittenstomp's character postings.... That said, it is probably a vulnerability in the rule set that the number of powers can be increased without much of a downside. If individual groups want to increase the number of powers on their own, they don't need any official material for help. At least make mandatory, appropriately debilitating downsides for any "canon" character class with more innate power potential than others. If for no other reason than to add texture....

Perhaps extra powers should come at the cost of attribute penalties? How about hit point damage comparable to the AlterLimbs and GunLimb ammo requirement? There's plenty of ways to balance things out that will add texture to the game without inherently unbalancing the existing material.

This is one of the reasons I worked on a stat-based BIO-E cost for powers. EX: 1D6 damage costs 6 BIO-E, attribute bonuses cost 1 BIO-E, extra melee attacks cost 15 BIO-E.... This will make it easier for GM's to control power levels by giving a set amount of BIO-E, instead of a set number of powers. It would encourage people to take good, low-powered abilities like Heightened Senses more often. It seems a little too close to "point-based" at this point, but a finished product wouldn't have a bunch of number-crunching- At least, no more than TMNT and AtB require.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Wayne
Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 12:47 pm
  

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Palladium Books® Freelance Writer

Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 2:25 pm
Posts: 108
Location: Windsor ON Canada
Hey Wayne and everyone

Well I admit that the Eugenics can produce some powerful characters, the PU series of books are just to expand the range of characters that are possible in HU2, some classes are very weak (like the Natural Genius) others are mid range (like the empowered hero or the Imbued hero) others are more powerful (like Eugenics or the Super Soldier) but I also included the minor hero option for just this reason, so that GMs have an "official" way to limit those classes that they themselves find to powerful. As far as Wayne vs Carmen, I personal hope not, the alien genetics in his book spawned the Eugenics rules in the first place, Eugenics was a natural out growth of what he has writen. Are the powerful, sure they are, but we are talking about altering the fundemental building blocks of life here, it dont get much more powerful than that. As for the new Super Soilders, I dont find them powerful, just complete, if you do just "say no" to their special weapons and vehicles. THanks Carmen 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Hey Wayne
Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 1:29 pm
  

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Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2003 2:01 am
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Location: Southern NY
I cans ee the arguments for both sides of the topic here. Thats why HU is a great system as well as the whole Palladium system of having so many classes and ways to limit some trouble areas for worried gm's

Aegis, making no sense again :-D

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