Fixing Energy Expulsion

[Tywyll]

So, energy explusion seems to be waaaaay underpowered compared to melee and regular guns. Yes, you don't need ammo or a weapon, yes your damage goes up as you level, yes you have some secondary effects depending on the type of energy you expulse...but as a combat power, it is pretty weak sauce (compared to its comic and movie equivalents).

I statted a bruiser yesterday with 3 powers, aps: stone, superpowered strength (the one in the middle, not supernatural) and extraordinary PE. He does like 1d4+59 damage with a punch. Even without the second str power, he would do 1d4+34...which still leaves EE cold. A blast that was 3d6+1d6 per level would need to be about level 7 or 8 to average that damage on a hit.

Has anyone house ruled this? I'm considering just doubling the damage dice for starters.

[zerombr]

nope, and here's why. Its got range, and thats a big deal for someone that can't fly. Sure it can be weaker compared to the PS bonuses you can get, but lets not forget you chose PS boosting abilities too. Heck, even super energy expulsion is going to do less damage overall compared to strength based attacks.

But I digress. Range is really useful.

[Tywyll]

nope, and here's why. Its got range, and thats a big deal for someone that can't fly. Sure it can be weaker compared to the PS bonuses you can get, but lets not forget you chose PS boosting abilities too. Heck, even super energy expulsion is going to do less damage overall compared to strength based attacks.

But I digress. Range is really useful.

Super strong characters have range-any object they can pick up becomes a weapon. I literally just had the example super strong character throw a person for 129 damage (2d4x10+PS bonus). If he was supernaturally strong and picked up a car, it would have been worse.

Super strength also gives you super jumps. It's not flight, but it gets you places.

SS has utility-lift things, carry injured or civilians to safety.

Energy blast has none of that.

[zerombr]

I guess we can just disagree on it.

[Glistam]

nope, and here's why. Its got range, and thats a big deal for someone that can't fly. Sure it can be weaker compared to the PS bonuses you can get, but lets not forget you chose PS boosting abilities too. Heck, even super energy expulsion is going to do less damage overall compared to strength based attacks.

But I digress. Range is really useful.

Super strong characters have range-any object they can pick up becomes a weapon. I literally just had the example super strong character throw a person for 129 damage (2d4x10+PS bonus). If he was supernaturally strong and picked up a car, it would have been worse.

Super strength also gives you super jumps. It's not flight, but it gets you places.

SS has utility-lift things, carry injured or civilians to safety.

Energy blast has none of that.

Super Strength has none of that either. Picking up an object? That's an action. Throwing it? Only a couple of feet per P.S. point. Damage your non-supernaturally strong character did by throwing someone seems way too high - was that based on Super TK? Because those damages are jot universal. Super jumping due to strength takes FOUR actions to accomplish and it's not even remotely going to compare to flying. The Heroes Unlimited G.M.'s Guide has the punishingly likited rules for all these feats in the section on Super Brawling. Once implemented, you'll find Energy Expulsion as is to be fairly balanced versus Super Strength.

[Incriptus]

So, energy explusion seems to be waaaaay underpowered compared to melee and regular guns. Yes, you don't need ammo or a weapon, yes your damage goes up as you level, yes you have some secondary effects depending on the type of energy you expulse...but as a combat power, it is pretty weak sauce (compared to its comic and movie equivalents).

I statted a bruiser yesterday with 3 powers, aps: stone, superpowered strength (the one in the middle, not supernatural) and extraordinary PE. He does like 1d4+59 damage with a punch. Even without the second str power, he would do 1d4+34...which still leaves EE cold. A blast that was 3d6+1d6 per level would need to be about level 7 or 8 to average that damage on a hit.

Has anyone house ruled this? I'm considering just doubling the damage dice for starters.

A: You're right
B: You're using a bad example

+34 means you have a 49 P.S
-- That means you if you rolled max on APS Stone (14+2d4) you had a 27 P.S. before you had powers
-- (disclaimer: you may have some hand to hand bonuses, and are using physical skills)
-- But the point stands that you were an extraordinarily strong individual to begin with

Imagine if you rolled a 13 P.S. got +3 from psychical skills, then rolled an average 14+5 on APS stone.
Now you only do 1d4+20. Still superior damage, but the draw backs of Melee vs Range would help balance that a lot.

A better example might be EE Fire (2d6+1d6/lvl) vs a Flame Thrower (5d10)
or a short burst from a 9mm (3d6*2)
(Disclaimer: ammo/fuel, illegality, disarmable, concealability, ect... all noted)



Regardless however, if you/we wanted to even slightly buff up our EE powers, perhaps the first starting suggestion would be to give it an attribute advantage, for example ...

Consult the P.S. Table, using the M.E. or P.E attribute instead, to add to the damage.
Now a character with a 20 ME does 3d6 + 5 with his EE Fire, and you could synergize with Extraordinary M.E the way you up'ed your punch with Superhuman P.S.

I also wouldn't be offended by simply increasing all of them by 1d6 damage

Another option would be to give EE powers an amount of "ammo" and allow them to take advantage of the burst rules that modern weapons get. (Spit balling here) you have a number of EE blasts equal to your M.E./P.E. attribute per hour (day? encounter?)

[Pepsi Jedi]

Incriptus is right. Glancing at your damage and what not it would seem your char was over twice as strong as an average guy before he even got his super powers. Then they were stacked.
So... the char's been Mini-maxed.

Can someone roll 6, 6, 6, and a 6, for their bonus then a 3, ?

Yes.. technically someone can do that.

Can it randomly just so happen to be in the PS chatagory of a bruiser character?

Yes... technically someone can do that.

I don't actually want to work the math to point out how many times that would land one in thousands? Tens of thousands? O rolls to land like that on random generation? Not very common to nail it like that and just so happen to have it hit on the needed attribute as well.

So the example is a bit skewed.

To answer the direct question. Yes heroes like the Hulk do hella damage when they hit things, or even throw things.

But heroes like Cyclops do too. Yes Cyclops is no doubt a lvl 15 char (No coversions just speaking generally) but the Hulk of today is much stronger than when he started. In Palladium your strength based char isn't going to 'get stronger' as he levels up. Energy expulsion tends to.

[Tywyll]

Super Strength has none of that either.

Um, yes it does.

Picking up an object? That's an action.

Worth it. And could easily start a fight with objects in hand.

As happened in my recent game.

Throwing it? Only a couple of feet per P.S. point.

Depending. The table in the GM's guide is terrible as it stops at 30 PS, almost begging one to use the optional rule of +1 foot per PS. Meaning the example brute has an 84' range with a human, which is fairly in line with comic book expectations.

Damage your non-supernaturally strong character did by throwing someone seems way too high - was that based on Super TK? Because those damages are jot universal.

No, that was based on page 55. Now, I'll admit we had a weird interaction here because the damage done to the person being thrown was inflicted directly to the PC (Guardian Angel) and had he hit with the guy it would have been less...it still would have been 2d6+59, which is still head and shoulders above any energy blast.

Super jumping due to strength takes FOUR actions to accomplish and it's not even remotely going to compare to flying.

No, it isn't. But it is a level of free utility that goes above and beyond anything any energy expulsion provides. You may not use super leaps in combat, but you can use them to get around/chase a car/escape a fight/or even occasionally pluck a low flyer from the sky.

So, as I said, high strength provides not only tremendous damage, it provides a number of free benefits. It is, in all ways, superior to energy expulsion. Guns are often superior to energy expulsion as well, at least from a purely damage dealing perspective (thanks to bursts). Energy expulsion is extremely weak in comparison to both strength and mundane weapons.

[Tywyll]

A: You're right
B: You're using a bad example

+34 means you have a 49 P.S
-- That means you if you rolled max on APS Stone (14+2d4) you had a 27 P.S. before you had powers
-- (disclaimer: you may have some hand to hand bonuses, and are using physical skills)
-- But the point stands that you were an extraordinarily strong individual to begin with

Sure, he was designed to a bruiser to fight the party. He has a 74 strength in stone form. I assumed a 19 Str natural, various physical skill bonuses, superhuman strength (+25? I think), then stone bonuses. I gave him average on all the bonus rolls like from aps and superhuman strength.

However, he's not a completely unrealistic model. Lots of powers provide St bumps so, while maybe not so high (none of the PCs have PS that high), it can still do a lot of damage compared to EE.

Imagine if you rolled a 13 P.S. got +3 from psychical skills, then rolled an average 14+5 on APS stone.
Now you only do 1d4+20. Still superior damage, but the draw backs of Melee vs Range would help balance that a lot.

I'd venture that if you only got +3 from physical skills you've built your character wrong!
Jokes aside, sure with APS that's a point, but if the character had extraordinary PS or superhuman PS the problem is still there! Less so with extraordinary str, but still.

A better example might be EE Fire (2d6+1d6/lvl) vs a Flame Thrower (5d10)
or a short burst from a 9mm (3d6*2)
(Disclaimer: ammo/fuel, illegality, disarmable, concealability, ect... all noted)

Exactly!

Regardless however, if you/we wanted to even slightly buff up our EE powers, perhaps the first starting suggestion would be to give it an attribute advantage, for example ...

Consult the P.S. Table, using the M.E. or P.E attribute instead, to add to the damage.
Now a character with a 20 ME does 3d6 + 5 with his EE Fire, and you could synergize with Extraordinary M.E the way you up'ed your punch with Superhuman P.S.

I was thinking of this. I hesitated to tie it to PP because that's already a god stat. Any reasons for picking those two stats over others?

I also wouldn't be offended by simply increasing all of them by 1d6 damage

I would go at least 2d6.

Another option would be to give EE powers an amount of "ammo" and allow them to take advantage of the burst rules that modern weapons get. (Spit balling here) you have a number of EE blasts equal to your M.E./P.E. attribute per hour (day? encounter?)

Yeah, I wish Palladium had some sort of meta-currency for heroic actions/pushing. Then you could spend that to boost powers or change them (do a spray or cone with your EE, for example)

[Tywyll]

Incriptus is right. Glancing at your damage and what not it would seem your char was over twice as strong as an average guy before he even got his super powers. Then they were stacked.
So... the char's been Mini-maxed.

Can someone roll 6, 6, 6, and a 6, for their bonus then a 3, ?

Yes.. technically someone can do that.

Can it randomly just so happen to be in the PS chatagory of a bruiser character?

Yes... technically someone can do that.

I don't actually want to work the math to point out how many times that would land one in thousands? Tens of thousands? O rolls to land like that on random generation? Not very common to nail it like that and just so happen to have it hit on the needed attribute as well.

So the example is a bit skewed.

To answer the direct question. Yes heroes like the Hulk do hella damage when they hit things, or even throw things.

But heroes like Cyclops do too. Yes Cyclops is no doubt a lvl 15 char (No coversions just speaking generally) but the Hulk of today is much stronger than when he started. In Palladium your strength based char isn't going to 'get stronger' as he levels up. Energy expulsion tends to.

First off, choosing powers is a valid way of creating characters. This one happened to be an NPC, but even for PCs, its an optional rule. Thinking about it, its funny how most of the NPCs in the books seem to have common power themes that generally make sense, yet PCs are expected to have APS: Plant, Energy Expulsion Sonic and Super Bouncing...

Second off, most people don't roll 3d6 in order for character creation in any random generation system.

Third off, the example character was assumed to have a single 16, followed by a +3 before physical skills and powers. Not that hard to get, especially if alternative die methods are used (i.e. this character isn't that weird or out there).

Fourth off, random rareness =/= Balanced. Ignoring his bonus from APS Stone, his main buff to PS was his Superhuman Strength, which is simply a minor power like Energy expulsion (only soooo much better).

Fifth, guns. There's a common trope about HU characters getting their powers then getting the biggest guns they can. I didn't create it, but I've experienced it myself and clearly others have or it wouldn't be a trope. Guns are far superior in damage to energy blasts.

Sixth-to pick apart your example, Cyclops hasn't become stronger...he's just more skilled with his blasts, he's learned more tricks, etc. To my knowledge, his raw potential (wide open eyes) has not changed. Same with Hulk...Hulk's tag line of 'Hulk is Strongest There Is' goes waaay back. His ability to get stronger the more angry he gets is an old one (maybe not from day 1 but still).

[jaymz]

Let's keep one thing in mind here. All these ee powers ypubare concerned with are MINOR. They are largely on par, or slightly below, with handguns at first level and eventually get to rifle level and beyond. If you are looking for Cyclops like ee then I'd suggest using super ee as your comparison not minor powers.

[Tywyll]

Let's keep one thing in mind here. All these ee powers ypubare concerned with are MINOR. They are largely on par, or slightly below, with handguns at first level and eventually get to rifle level and beyond. If you are looking for Cyclops like ee then I'd suggest using super ee as your comparison not minor powers.

That's a fair point, but ignores that Extraordinary Str and Superhuman Str are also Minor powers.

[jaymz]

You are also ignoring the fact that ee is more finesse than brute power or the fact the ps levels even if minor can kill your opponent if they are mortal. They are balanced in there own ways but you just don't see it as you are hung up on "damage dealt"

[Pepsi Jedi]

No. What he's doing is comparing a full out rage filled punch from the Thing ..... to Jubilee when you first meet her... and going "Wow this seems not to be uneven.

(Actually not really the thing as the thing wouldn't be THAT strong, but still)

[jaymz]

Thought I'd do a quick check. EEs in hu2 do 2d6+1d6 to 3d6+1d6 per level.....the average gun (.32, .38, or 9mm) range 2d6 to 3d6 in damage. Rifles range 4d6 to 6d6.

So your complaint of not being as good as guns is essentially wrong. They're on par with handguns at 1st level and by 7th level equal to even the heaviest rifle round in the book or surpass it.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Incriptus is right. Glancing at your damage and what not it would seem your char was over twice as strong as an average guy before he even got his super powers. Then they were stacked.
So... the char's been Mini-maxed.

Can someone roll 6, 6, 6, and a 6, for their bonus then a 3, ?

Yes.. technically someone can do that.

Can it randomly just so happen to be in the PS chatagory of a bruiser character?

Yes... technically someone can do that.

I don't actually want to work the math to point out how many times that would land one in thousands? Tens of thousands? O rolls to land like that on random generation? Not very common to nail it like that and just so happen to have it hit on the needed attribute as well.

So the example is a bit skewed.

To answer the direct question. Yes heroes like the Hulk do hella damage when they hit things, or even throw things.

But heroes like Cyclops do too. Yes Cyclops is no doubt a lvl 15 char (No coversions just speaking generally) but the Hulk of today is much stronger than when he started. In Palladium your strength based char isn't going to 'get stronger' as he levels up. Energy expulsion tends to.

First off, choosing powers is a valid way of creating characters.

Sure it is, but if you're purpose building a character, don't be surprised that it's good at what it does. You've designed it that way after all.

This one happened to be an NPC, but even for PCs, its an optional rule. Thinking about it, its funny how most of the NPCs in the books seem to have common power themes that generally make sense, yet PCs are expected to have APS: Plant, Energy Expulsion Sonic and Super Bouncing...

I've never been a fan of the random rolls myself. But then I wasn't addressing randomness. You're talking about balance. My point isn't about the radnomness, but more "If you build a super tank char, you can't complain it's really strong."

Second off, most people don't roll 3d6 in order for character creation in any random generation system.

1) That's an assumption not in evidence
2) Then you're into home brew rules and might as well stop the entire debate. If you're not using the rules, complaining that the rules don't build characters in a certain way is silly. You're not USING the rules. You're using home brew stuff. Which would be considered cheating in many games. If you're making stuff up. Make it what ever you like, but remember you're not playing RAW so complaints fall on deaf ears.

To put it shorter, You've changed the game and are complaining about the game -you- changed.

Third off, the example character was assumed to have a single 16, followed by a +3 before physical skills and powers. Not that hard to get, especially if alternative die methods are used (i.e. this character isn't that weird or out there).

"Assumed" So you didn't roll it. You just gave it a high stat, added onto that stat, Stacked physical skills to get higher numbers and then stacked super powers. And you're compaining it's not balanced? You mini/maxed and twinked out the character with a stat already assumed to be beyond human at the very start. lol Of course your numbers are going to look stupid at the end. because as per RAW the character would never land that way. Or would only land that way one in seven hundred thousand attempts at rolling the character.

You're going "Oh well it's in the realm of possibility that this char I need to be strong would start with a 19 in strength.Yeah that sounds good. I'll start there and then build onto it stacking skills to add more strength and multiple super powers to do the same.

OH WOW, how come it's stronger than a dude with lvl 1 Energy expulsion?? This game is dumb!"

Fourth off, random rareness =/= Balanced. Ignoring his bonus from APS Stone, his main buff to PS was his Superhuman Strength, which is simply a minor power like Energy expulsion (only soooo much better).

The game doesn't claim all powers are balanced or equal. Kevin states this straight up. On the same pages in the GM guide he directly addresses it. "Why are there three levels of strength?" and then even more on point to your claims here "Why even put three levels in, people are just going to pick the strongest" Some will. Twink players are a thing. They're QUITE common, but they're not the only type of player.

You see you're putting a LOT of assumption into your posts here and just assuming that everyone else twinks out every character and therefore it's a given to do so, and then are complaining about the system you're not ACTUALLY using, not producing balanced characters when you're going out of your way to make a character that's in no way balanced. lol

Fifth, guns. There's a common trope about HU characters getting their powers then getting the biggest guns they can. I didn't create it, but I've experienced it myself and clearly others have or it wouldn't be a trope. Guns are far superior in damage to energy blasts.

I've never heard of this trope. So your 'given' is not. I've played this game for decades. Over three decades. I've not run into this. It's not common in our games. Do characters that are built to be 'gun bunnies' use guns. Yes. They're pretty much the only ones. (And yes there's usually one in each group, but Palladium 'guns' are silly for the most part anyway).

I've never run into people, in over THREE DECADES of playing HU that make up power whielding superheroes and then ignore their powers and load up on guns. That's a silly concept to me. What's the point of spending the time to make the character and then do that?

So your "Well this is what people do" is false. it may be what YOU do and your friends do, but it's not at all a given. I've never seen people do that crap. lol Do I believe that some would? Sure. I've seen crazy stuff.

What I HAVE Seen is in Rifts, people playing their mages like commandos, due to how Weapon Preferencies work, but we're talking about Heroes Unlimited. And no. In my games people don't roll up mutants, or mystically empowered heroes and then have them ignore their powers and grab guns.

Just an aside. "Guns are far superior bla bla bla" If I'm playing a super hero, I'm playing a super hero. I'd much rather play Nightcrawler or Ice man, than Punisher. I've no interest in playing a normal human with a gun. Nor do I sit and look at damage dice and let them dictate what I play. If I want to play a cool alien. I play a cool alien. If my alien is not able to punch through mountains like Colossus, Im ok with that. If a gun does 3D6 and my Energy blast only does 2D6, I'm fine with that. (especially as my blast will be better than your gun in a few levels).

The game isn't about having the highest numbers and most dice to throw at the paper. If you're playing that way you're 1) Missing the point and 2) Playing the WROOOOOOOOOONG game. lol HU is a low powered supers game. You can't even remoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooootely come close to "A List heroes" in HU. So basing your character creation and game play around tyrying to be the strongest/have the most dice, etc is silly to start.

Sixth-to pick apart your example, Cyclops hasn't become stronger...he's just more skilled with his blasts, he's learned more tricks, etc. To my knowledge, his raw potential (wide open eyes) has not changed.

He's become much stronger. All heroes in comics do. The 'full strength blast' from Cyclops from 1963 isn't even on par with a normal every day shot of him today, much less him really cutting loose.

Same with Hulk...Hulk's tag line of 'Hulk is Strongest There Is' goes waaay back. His ability to get stronger the more angry he gets is an old one (maybe not from day 1 but still).

LOL Seriously?? Come on man. Don't bring that trash to a talk about super heroes. The Hulk's top end strength when he started isn't even in the same universe as it is today. or even years ago. World War Hulk happened in what... 2007? lol The original gray hulk staggering around the wilderness and fighting with wolverine is nothing nothing NOOOOOTHING like the Hulk that single handedly took out the vast majority of the Marvel universe with out breaking a sweat.

Look at Superman. When he started he could 'leap tall buildings with a single bound'. he couldn't even fly yet. His strength went from roughly where Captain America's is NOW (Able to stop a train, move construction equipment)...... to advancing to the point he can now lift 200 Quintillion tons.
(Nope didn't stutter https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a ... f5d15.webp )

[Tywyll]

Another option would be to give EE powers an amount of "ammo" and allow them to take advantage of the burst rules that modern weapons get. (Spit balling here) you have a number of EE blasts equal to your M.E./P.E. attribute per hour (day? encounter?)

Yeah, I wish Palladium had some sort of meta-currency for heroic actions/pushing. Then you could spend that to boost powers or change them (do a spray or cone with your EE, for example)

I wonder if the Blhaze Pulse attack might be a way to fix it...just make it part of Energy Expulsion. Granted, the utility of that power drops off pretty sharply by level 5 or 6 so that might need to be looked at, but it would allow characters to trade attacks for more damage.

Maybe give them a boost at 3, 6, 9, and 12 like the Cosmo Knight-
Single attack +3d6
Double Attack +1d3x10
Triple Attack +1d4x10
Quad Attack +1d6x10

[Tywyll]

Thought I'd do a quick check. EEs in hu2 do 2d6+1d6 to 3d6+1d6 per level.....the average gun (.32, .38, or 9mm) range 2d6 to 3d6 in damage. Rifles range 4d6 to 6d6.

So your complaint of not being as good as guns is essentially wrong. They're on par with handguns at 1st level and by 7th level equal to even the heaviest rifle round in the book or surpass it.

No, you are ignoring bursts, with x2-x10 damage, which is where their superiority shines.

[Tywyll]

No. What he's doing is comparing a full out rage filled punch from the Thing ..... to Jubilee when you first meet her... and going "Wow this seems not to be uneven.

(Actually not really the thing as the thing wouldn't be THAT strong, but still)

No, I'm comparing the Thing at level 1 with Jubilee at level 1.

Except all Energy Blasters in HU are Jubilee. You don't get any Storms or Cyclopes apparently.

The Things and the Hulks start out stronger, have a huge amount of utility that blasters never match, and simply stay better in almost all ways. In light of that (and the fact that the damage values for EE were from first edition while the power bloat has continued in HU2 and later but those powers haven't been upgraded to match), upping the damage seems like a small thing.

[Tywyll]

You are also ignoring the fact that ee is more finesse than brute power or the fact the ps levels even if minor can kill your opponent if they are mortal. They are balanced in there own ways but you just don't see it as you are hung up on "damage dealt"

LOL...wut?

Seriously?

Have you not seen Pull Punch as a maneuver?

EE user's can't manipulate their blasts until level 3, so until then they can't even roll to Pull punch.

Through regardless, that's a strawman argument. Even street thugs in HU2 have around 30 SDC and 13-15 HP, so no one is putting a guy near death with a single blow (unless it is a monster like the one I made and he doesn't care).

[Tywyll]

This one happened to be an NPC, but even for PCs, its an optional rule. Thinking about it, its funny how most of the NPCs in the books seem to have common power themes that generally make sense, yet PCs are expected to have APS: Plant, Energy Expulsion Sonic and Super Bouncing...

I've never been a fan of the random rolls myself. But then I wasn't addressing randomness. You're talking about balance. My point isn't about the radnomness, but more "If you build a super tank char, you can't complain it's really strong."

I'm not complaining about the character being super strong. Did you even read what I wrote? I'm pointing out that super strength is heads and shoulders beyond what EE can provide. The example character I gave was just that, an example. Extreme maybe, but not one that is outside the realm of possibility.

Second off, most people don't roll 3d6 in order for character creation in any random generation system.

1) That's an assumption not in evidence

My own experience in numerous Palladium games with various GMs and as a GM has shown it to be true. I've never seen a single one require 3d6 in order.

Also, look in the published books and the example characters and try to tell me with a straight face they were generated 3d6 in order.

To put it shorter, You've changed the game and are complaining about the game -you- changed.

No, I haven't, unless you are assuming a 16 and a 3 are impossible rolls and choosing powers is forbidden. Nothing I did can't exist RAW.

Third off, the example character was assumed to have a single 16, followed by a +3 before physical skills and powers. Not that hard to get, especially if alternative die methods are used (i.e. this character isn't that weird or out there).

"Assumed" So you didn't roll it. You just gave it a high stat, added onto that stat, Stacked physical skills to get higher numbers and then stacked super powers. And you're compaining it's not balanced? You mini/maxed and twinked out the character with a stat already assumed to be beyond human at the very start. lol Of course your numbers are going to look stupid at the end. because as per RAW the character would never land that way. Or would only land that way one in seven hundred thousand attempts at rolling the character.

And if a player rolled a high strength and wanted to play a bruiser and got to pick their powers...we end in the same situation.

Also, if it's such a problem for you, remember that NPCS don't need to be created by the rules of PCS (per Rifter Q&A).

You're going "Oh well it's in the realm of possibility that this char I need to be strong would start with a 19 in strength.Yeah that sounds good. I'll start there and then build onto it stacking skills to add more strength and multiple super powers to do the same.

OH WOW, how come it's stronger than a dude with lvl 1 Energy expulsion?? This game is dumb!"

Wow, so the image of Palladium fan boys is really true. No one can take any criticism.

Even if this character ONLY had superhuman strength, his 54 str would still be problematic vis-à-vis EE. The extra bennies that PS gets is a huge part of my complaint. But hey, you know, ignore what I'm saying if it suits your purposes.

Fourth off, random rareness =/= Balanced. Ignoring his bonus from APS Stone, his main buff to PS was his Superhuman Strength, which is simply a minor power like Energy expulsion (only soooo much better).

You see you're putting a LOT of assumption into your posts here and just assuming that everyone else twinks out every character and therefore it's a given to do so, and then are complaining about the system you're not ACTUALLY using, not producing balanced characters when you're going out of your way to make a character that's in no way balanced. lol

Personal experience and example characters point to backing me up.

Fifth, guns. There's a common trope about HU characters getting their powers then getting the biggest guns they can. I didn't create it, but I've experienced it myself and clearly others have or it wouldn't be a trope. Guns are far superior in damage to energy blasts.

I've never heard of this trope. So your 'given' is not. I've played this game for decades. Over three decades. I've not run into this. It's not common in our games. Do characters that are built to be 'gun bunnies' use guns. Yes. They're pretty much the only ones. (And yes there's usually one in each group, but Palladium 'guns' are silly for the most part anyway).

Your ignorance doesn't obviate the existance of the trope.

Just an aside. "Guns are far superior bla bla bla" If I'm playing a super hero, I'm playing a super hero. I'd much rather play Nightcrawler or Ice man, than Punisher. I've no interest in playing a normal human with a gun. Nor do I sit and look at damage dice and let them dictate what I play. If I want to play a cool alien. I play a cool alien. If my alien is not able to punch through mountains like Colossus, Im ok with that. If a gun does 3D6 and my Energy blast only does 2D6, I'm fine with that. (especially as my blast will be better than your gun in a few levels).

Ditto, so would I, which is why I would rather see my energy blast cut through a wooden door instead of bounce off of it.

The game isn't about having the highest numbers and most dice to throw at the paper. If you're playing that way you're 1) Missing the point and 2) Playing the WROOOOOOOOOONG game. lol HU is a low powered supers game. You can't even remoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooootely come close to "A List heroes" in HU. So basing your character creation and game play around tyrying to be the strongest/have the most dice, etc is silly to start.

Wow, you really aren't reading anything I am writing.

Sixth-to pick apart your example, Cyclops hasn't become stronger...he's just more skilled with his blasts, he's learned more tricks, etc. To my knowledge, his raw potential (wide open eyes) has not changed.

He's become much stronger. All heroes in comics do. The 'full strength blast' from Cyclops from 1963 isn't even on par with a normal every day shot of him today, much less him really cutting loose.

Prove it.

Same with Hulk...Hulk's tag line of 'Hulk is Strongest There Is' goes waaay back. His ability to get stronger the more angry he gets is an old one (maybe not from day 1 but still).

LOL Seriously?? Come on man. Don't bring that trash to a talk about super heroes. The Hulk's top end strength when he started isn't even in the same universe as it is today. or even years ago. World War Hulk happened in what... 2007? lol The original gray hulk staggering around the wilderness and fighting with wolverine is nothing nothing NOOOOOTHING like the Hulk that single handedly took out the vast majority of the Marvel universe with out breaking a sweat.

And again you ignore what I said. He's long been the 'strongest character in the marvel universe'. For decades.

Look at Superman. When he started he could 'leap tall buildings with a single bound'. he couldn't even fly yet. His strength went from roughly where Captain America's is NOW (Able to stop a train, move construction equipment)...... to advancing to the point he can now lift 200 Quintillion tons.
(Nope didn't stutter https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a ... f5d15.webp )

Oh yeah, supes changed, but not because he 'got stronger' but because he was retconned. Really the same as the Hulk. Maybe not Cyclops as the Xmen are shown to train.

If you don't get the difference, I don't see why you tried to bring them up in this discussion.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Thought I'd do a quick check. EEs in hu2 do 2d6+1d6 to 3d6+1d6 per level.....the average gun (.32, .38, or 9mm) range 2d6 to 3d6 in damage. Rifles range 4d6 to 6d6.

So your complaint of not being as good as guns is essentially wrong. They're on par with handguns at 1st level and by 7th level equal to even the heaviest rifle round in the book or surpass it.

No, you are ignoring bursts, with x2-x10 damage, which is where their superiority shines.

No he's not. Most guns can't do bursts. Only military hardware can and even then only certain ones, that are not common to the polulace.

Again your comparison is off.

You're saying "guns"

What you're MEANING is fully automatic assault rifles or heavy machine guns.

Which is not something you can pick up at the 7-11, and most people don't have, nor have any way to acquire.

More over guns have ammo and if you're using burst rules, you're running out of ammo and using up melee attacks to pull it off.

Your comparisons are not apt or accurate.

[Pepsi Jedi]

No. What he's doing is comparing a full out rage filled punch from the Thing ..... to Jubilee when you first meet her... and going "Wow this seems not to be uneven.

(Actually not really the thing as the thing wouldn't be THAT strong, but still)

No, I'm comparing the Thing at level 1 with Jubilee at level 1.

Except all Energy Blasters in HU are Jubilee. You don't get any Storms or Cyclopes apparently.

The Things and the Hulks start out stronger, have a huge amount of utility that blasters never match, and simply stay better in almost all ways. In light of that (and the fact that the damage values for EE were from first edition while the power bloat has continued in HU2 and later but those powers haven't been upgraded to match), upping the damage seems like a small thing.

Which is simply untrue.

Your "Thing" build is going to be as strong at lvl 15 as they are at lvl 1

An energy expulsion char's blast is going to be 15 levels stronger. Some start at 3D6 and go up 1D6 per, meaning they'll be 18D6 at the end. And that's just standard and ignoring Super Energy Expulsion.

You're taking MAJOR powers and compairing them to singular minor powers.

If you look at APS Stone and go "oh wow it's so much stronger than "Energy expulsion energy" at level one..... well it's a major power. You're saying it'll always be better...

So compare Major to Major power.

APS Stone is 'front loaded' to be strong and tough.

Look at Super Energy Expulsion. Super Energy blast 1D6X10+1D6 per level. So at lvl 15 It'll be 1D6X10+15D6, or 18D6 per attack, as many attacks as you have.

Your APS stone guy. Still hitting for the exact same damage he was at lvl 1.

Your mind is stuck in "Initial twink" phase and are not looking all around. You're saying the tanks have more utility but they really don't. A blaster can keep distance on your tank and wittle you down. 620 feet to start+20 feet per lvl on SuperEE. Your tank will be trying to get to the blaster and if the blaster is smart, he doesn't LET the tank get a hold of him. So every time the tank moves forward the blaster moves back and keeps right on shooting.

Does it take a while to wittle down a tank?Yeah. But it can be done. You're acting like an Energy Expulsion character is going to walk up to a tank, get with in arms reach and try and duke it out.

How stupid are the people in your game that try to "Duke it out" with the hulk, or thor, or colossus? If they're that dumb they deserve what they get.

[Pepsi Jedi]

This one happened to be an NPC, but even for PCs, its an optional rule. Thinking about it, its funny how most of the NPCs in the books seem to have common power themes that generally make sense, yet PCs are expected to have APS: Plant, Energy Expulsion Sonic and Super Bouncing...

I've never been a fan of the random rolls myself. But then I wasn't addressing randomness. You're talking about balance. My point isn't about the radnomness, but more "If you build a super tank char, you can't complain it's really strong."

I'm not complaining about the character being super strong. Did you even read what I wrote? I'm pointing out that super strength is heads and shoulders beyond what EE can provide. The example character I gave was just that, an example. Extreme maybe, but not one that is outside the realm of possibility.

Second off, most people don't roll 3d6 in order for character creation in any random generation system.

1) That's an assumption not in evidence

My own experience in numerous Palladium games with various GMs and as a GM has shown it to be true. I've never seen a single one require 3d6 in order.

Also, look in the published books and the example characters and try to tell me with a straight face they were generated 3d6 in order.

To put it shorter, You've changed the game and are complaining about the game -you- changed.

No, I haven't, unless you are assuming a 16 and a 3 are impossible rolls and choosing powers is forbidden. Nothing I did can't exist RAW.

Third off, the example character was assumed to have a single 16, followed by a +3 before physical skills and powers. Not that hard to get, especially if alternative die methods are used (i.e. this character isn't that weird or out there).

"Assumed" So you didn't roll it. You just gave it a high stat, added onto that stat, Stacked physical skills to get higher numbers and then stacked super powers. And you're compaining it's not balanced? You mini/maxed and twinked out the character with a stat already assumed to be beyond human at the very start. lol Of course your numbers are going to look stupid at the end. because as per RAW the character would never land that way. Or would only land that way one in seven hundred thousand attempts at rolling the character.

And if a player rolled a high strength and wanted to play a bruiser and got to pick their powers...we end in the same situation.

Also, if it's such a problem for you, remember that NPCS don't need to be created by the rules of PCS (per Rifter Q&A).

You're going "Oh well it's in the realm of possibility that this char I need to be strong would start with a 19 in strength.Yeah that sounds good. I'll start there and then build onto it stacking skills to add more strength and multiple super powers to do the same.

OH WOW, how come it's stronger than a dude with lvl 1 Energy expulsion?? This game is dumb!"

Wow, so the image of Palladium fan boys is really true. No one can take any criticism.

Even if this character ONLY had superhuman strength, his 54 str would still be problematic vis-à-vis EE. The extra bennies that PS gets is a huge part of my complaint. But hey, you know, ignore what I'm saying if it suits your purposes.

Fourth off, random rareness =/= Balanced. Ignoring his bonus from APS Stone, his main buff to PS was his Superhuman Strength, which is simply a minor power like Energy expulsion (only soooo much better).

You see you're putting a LOT of assumption into your posts here and just assuming that everyone else twinks out every character and therefore it's a given to do so, and then are complaining about the system you're not ACTUALLY using, not producing balanced characters when you're going out of your way to make a character that's in no way balanced. lol

Personal experience and example characters point to backing me up.

Fifth, guns. There's a common trope about HU characters getting their powers then getting the biggest guns they can. I didn't create it, but I've experienced it myself and clearly others have or it wouldn't be a trope. Guns are far superior in damage to energy blasts.

I've never heard of this trope. So your 'given' is not. I've played this game for decades. Over three decades. I've not run into this. It's not common in our games. Do characters that are built to be 'gun bunnies' use guns. Yes. They're pretty much the only ones. (And yes there's usually one in each group, but Palladium 'guns' are silly for the most part anyway).

Your ignorance doesn't obviate the existance of the trope.

Just an aside. "Guns are far superior bla bla bla" If I'm playing a super hero, I'm playing a super hero. I'd much rather play Nightcrawler or Ice man, than Punisher. I've no interest in playing a normal human with a gun. Nor do I sit and look at damage dice and let them dictate what I play. If I want to play a cool alien. I play a cool alien. If my alien is not able to punch through mountains like Colossus, Im ok with that. If a gun does 3D6 and my Energy blast only does 2D6, I'm fine with that. (especially as my blast will be better than your gun in a few levels).

Ditto, so would I, which is why I would rather see my energy blast cut through a wooden door instead of bounce off of it.

The game isn't about having the highest numbers and most dice to throw at the paper. If you're playing that way you're 1) Missing the point and 2) Playing the WROOOOOOOOOONG game. lol HU is a low powered supers game. You can't even remoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooootely come close to "A List heroes" in HU. So basing your character creation and game play around tyrying to be the strongest/have the most dice, etc is silly to start.

Wow, you really aren't reading anything I am writing.

Sixth-to pick apart your example, Cyclops hasn't become stronger...he's just more skilled with his blasts, he's learned more tricks, etc. To my knowledge, his raw potential (wide open eyes) has not changed.

He's become much stronger. All heroes in comics do. The 'full strength blast' from Cyclops from 1963 isn't even on par with a normal every day shot of him today, much less him really cutting loose.

Prove it.

Same with Hulk...Hulk's tag line of 'Hulk is Strongest There Is' goes waaay back. His ability to get stronger the more angry he gets is an old one (maybe not from day 1 but still).

LOL Seriously?? Come on man. Don't bring that trash to a talk about super heroes. The Hulk's top end strength when he started isn't even in the same universe as it is today. or even years ago. World War Hulk happened in what... 2007? lol The original gray hulk staggering around the wilderness and fighting with wolverine is nothing nothing NOOOOOTHING like the Hulk that single handedly took out the vast majority of the Marvel universe with out breaking a sweat.

And again you ignore what I said. He's long been the 'strongest character in the marvel universe'. For decades.

Look at Superman. When he started he could 'leap tall buildings with a single bound'. he couldn't even fly yet. His strength went from roughly where Captain America's is NOW (Able to stop a train, move construction equipment)...... to advancing to the point he can now lift 200 Quintillion tons.
(Nope didn't stutter https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a ... f5d15.webp )

Oh yeah, supes changed, but not because he 'got stronger' but because he was retconned. Really the same as the Hulk. Maybe not Cyclops as the Xmen are shown to train.

If you don't get the difference, I don't see why you tried to bring them up in this discussion.

Yes.. Superman got stronger... because he used to strain to pick up a car.... and now he can lift in excess of 200 QUINTILLION TONS. He's moved planets around on multiple occasions. It's called "Growth" and "Power progression" and "power creep" depending on usage and who/what we're talking about. They didn't 'retconn' superman to be able to move planets when he first started out. he got more powerful as time went on.

All superheroes powers tend to get stronger and more varied as time progresses. lol. You're being silly because your entire argument was shredded.

Sorry, but your assumptions are largely false, the 'build' you're attempting to discuss was home brewed and not achieved via RAW. So discussing RAW's flaws in your home brew char makes no sense. If you're not using the rules, and instead are making stuff up, then talking about the ACTUAL rules is talking about something you're not actually using. So what's the point?

[jaymz]

You didnt say guns that burst. You said guns. Bursts are not a single shot. Compare apples to apples. And I've proven ee blasts are on par with guns. Dont like it too bad you dont get to move the goal posts.

[jaymz]

You are also ignoring the fact that ee is more finesse than brute power or the fact the ps levels even if minor can kill your opponent if they are mortal. They are balanced in there own ways but you just don't see it as you are hung up on "damage dealt"

LOL...wut?

Seriously?

Have you not seen Pull Punch as a maneuver?

EE user's can't manipulate their blasts until level 3, so until then they can't even roll to Pull punch.

Through regardless, that's a strawman argument. Even street thugs in HU2 have around 30 SDC and 13-15 HP, so no one is putting a guy near death with a single blow (unless it is a monster like the one I made and he doesn't care).

I never said they will I said they can. Nice job ignoring the rest of what I said though since you cant dispute it.

Seems you just to complain so have at it I'm out. Showing twice why you're off base on your complaint only to have you ignore it to go off on a tangent or to try and obfuscate and move the goalposts as you have....I'm out. Cant reason with someone who is showing themselves unwilling to be reasoned with.

[Incriptus]

No he's not. Most guns can't do bursts. Only military hardware can and even then only certain ones, that are not common to the polulace.

Again your comparison is off.

You're saying "guns"

What you're MEANING is fully automatic assault rifles or heavy machine guns.

Which is not something you can pick up at the 7-11, and most people don't have, nor have any way to acquire.

More over guns have ammo and if you're using burst rules, you're running out of ammo and using up melee attacks to pull it off.

Your comparisons are not apt or accurate.

I have to point out that there is an inaccuracy in your statement

Burst rules apply to all Semi-Automatic and Automatic Weapons
(page 75, where burst rules show up in my version of HU2)

"All automatic pistols and double action revolvers as are semi-automatic, as well as commercially versions of assault weapons and some hunting rifles."

it does go on to state that semi-automatics take 2 attacks for a long burst or 3 attacks for full clip.

[Pepsi Jedi]

No he's not. Most guns can't do bursts. Only military hardware can and even then only certain ones, that are not common to the polulace.

Again your comparison is off.

You're saying "guns"

What you're MEANING is fully automatic assault rifles or heavy machine guns.

Which is not something you can pick up at the 7-11, and most people don't have, nor have any way to acquire.

More over guns have ammo and if you're using burst rules, you're running out of ammo and using up melee attacks to pull it off.

Your comparisons are not apt or accurate.

I have to point out that there is an inaccuracy in your statement

Burst rules apply to all Semi-Automatic and Automatic Weapons
(page 75, where burst rules show up in my version of HU2)

"All automatic pistols and double action revolvers as are semi-automatic, as well as commercially versions of assault weapons and some hunting rifles."

it does go on to state that semi-automatics take 2 attacks for a long burst or 3 attacks for full clip.

While the book does say that. I've actually... you know.. Owned guns and shoot guns and have for almost 40 years, so I tend to ignore the stupid. lol
You're not wrong that such things are erroneously labeled "Bursts" By palladium.
You're not wrong that the book says something to the tune of what you're saying.
Just the second sentence makes any one that's actually fired a gun wince. "All semi-automatic and automatic weapons, pistols, machineguns and sub-machineguns, are designed for firing bursts (three or more bullets at a time) ." It's just blatantly untrue. Infact very very few pistols are burst comparable and able to fire more than a single bullet at a time. Those that are require special license to acquire. Same as any fully automatic weapon in the US.
As it's absurd on the face of it, I long long long (30+years ago) Pulled a Nick Fury on it. "As it's a stupidass decision I've decided to ignore it"
That's on me. As it's 'my' house rule to ignore crap written by people that have only seen guns in movies from the 80s.

So yeah. That one's on me. I do not consider normal simi-automatic pistols and shot guns to fire bursts. Nor do I consider hunting rifles able to fire bursts. Words mean things and the words kevin is trying to use don't mean what he's saying they mean. If you call a fish a castle, it doesn't make it a castle. No matter how many times you call it one.

BUT... as I said. yes that's on me. I've house ruled it for over three decades to ignore the dumb so I forget that the dumb is there, as it's been purposefully ignored for that long. It falls into the 'If it's stupid change it" aspect of my own games. More over I don't allow -that- level of stupid to invade my games, even if it's canon via the rules.

But RAW you're not wrong. I am.

[Incriptus]

Words mean things and the words kevin is trying to use don't mean what he's saying they mean. If you call a fish a castle, it doesn't make it a castle. No matter how many times you call it one.

While we are veering off topic, and I can see that you're a little passionate on the subject, I should just let it lie ... but I don't have anyone in real life to argue RPG semantics with so here we are

It's closer to calling a Citadel, or a Fort, or a Bastion a Castle. It was (in my opinion, let's just pretend that is a disclaimer for everything I claim to be fact) clearly a simplistic to get across the point that you can throw a lot of bullets with modern firearms quickly. Much more quickly than your 2 to 4 attacks per melee would allow. Surely something like "Rapid Fire" would be more accurate than "Burst Fire" rules but the same results are achieved.

Now in your defense, the "classical" Modern Weapons combat [Cut & Paste] is being phased out. Rifts Ultimate Edition doesn't include them, and tends to give burst fire weapons explicit "burst" rules or "single shot". So it is clearly not an unreasonable decision to house rule that out ... it would appear later palladium books already have!

(Which kinda sucks because those classic rules really let me speed up combat)

[Tywyll]

You didnt say guns that burst. You said guns. Bursts are not a single shot. Compare apples to apples. And I've proven ee blasts are on par with guns. Dont like it too bad you dont get to move the goal posts.

No, you are trying to (and you've failed to prove anything). A gun includes all guns. I never said single shot, you simply assumed. Ranged attacks from guns, especially via bursts, are superior in almost all ways to EE and are available to all characters from level 1. A gun on full burst does more damage potentially (and reliably thanks to bell curves) than any 15th level character could do with a blast. Granted, they have to reload after and that's an action, but so what?

[Tywyll]

You are also ignoring the fact that ee is more finesse than brute power or the fact the ps levels even if minor can kill your opponent if they are mortal. They are balanced in there own ways but you just don't see it as you are hung up on "damage dealt"

LOL...wut?

Seriously?

Have you not seen Pull Punch as a maneuver?

EE user's can't manipulate their blasts until level 3, so until then they can't even roll to Pull punch.

Through regardless, that's a strawman argument. Even street thugs in HU2 have around 30 SDC and 13-15 HP, so no one is putting a guy near death with a single blow (unless it is a monster like the one I made and he doesn't care).

I never said they will I said they can. Nice job ignoring the rest of what I said though since you cant dispute it.

Seems you just to complain so have at it I'm out. Showing twice why you're off base on your complaint only to have you ignore it to go off on a tangent or to try and obfuscate and move the goalposts as you have....I'm out. Cant reason with someone who is showing themselves unwilling to be reasoned with.

Yes, you implied that there was some great difference between the two that doesn't exist. I've disagreed with what you've said because I don't find your counterarguments compelling. If they actually countered what I was saying, then sure.

[Tywyll]

No he's not. Most guns can't do bursts. Only military hardware can and even then only certain ones, that are not common to the polulace.

Again your comparison is off.

You're saying "guns"

What you're MEANING is fully automatic assault rifles or heavy machine guns.

Which is not something you can pick up at the 7-11, and most people don't have, nor have any way to acquire.

More over guns have ammo and if you're using burst rules, you're running out of ammo and using up melee attacks to pull it off.

Your comparisons are not apt or accurate.

I have to point out that there is an inaccuracy in your statement

Burst rules apply to all Semi-Automatic and Automatic Weapons
(page 75, where burst rules show up in my version of HU2)

"All automatic pistols and double action revolvers as are semi-automatic, as well as commercially versions of assault weapons and some hunting rifles."

it does go on to state that semi-automatics take 2 attacks for a long burst or 3 attacks for full clip.

Well said!

[Tywyll]

Words mean things and the words kevin is trying to use don't mean what he's saying they mean. If you call a fish a castle, it doesn't make it a castle. No matter how many times you call it one.

While we are veering off topic, and I can see that you're a little passionate on the subject, I should just let it lie ... but I don't have anyone in real life to argue RPG semantics with so here we are

It's closer to calling a Citadel, or a Fort, or a Bastion a Castle. It was (in my opinion, let's just pretend that is a disclaimer for everything I claim to be fact) clearly a simplistic to get across the point that you can throw a lot of bullets with modern firearms quickly. Much more quickly than your 2 to 4 attacks per melee would allow. Surely something like "Rapid Fire" would be more accurate than "Burst Fire" rules but the same results are achieved.

Now in your defense, the "classical" Modern Weapons combat [Cut & Paste] is being phased out. Rifts Ultimate Edition doesn't include them, and tends to give burst fire weapons explicit "burst" rules or "single shot". So it is clearly not an unreasonable decision to house rule that out ... it would appear later palladium books already have!

(Which kinda sucks because those classic rules really let me speed up combat)

Hey Inscriptus, I just wanted to say thank you for engaging with me on this topic. It seems I really poked the bear apparently and upset some fanboys for daring to suggest a houserule to Kevin's 'perfect' system. I've learned that this board is hostile to new people who don't toe the line apparently, which is sad, but there it is. Anyway, I appreciate you actually listening and giving me food for thought.

Back to your earlier comment, any particular reason why you think EE should key off PE or ME? Just curious. I agree that a stat modifier would be good. I also think that if there is a way to make it more like 1dxY would also be helpful (less swingy).

[Nekira Sudacne]

nope, and here's why. Its got range, and thats a big deal for someone that can't fly. Sure it can be weaker compared to the PS bonuses you can get, but lets not forget you chose PS boosting abilities too. Heck, even super energy expulsion is going to do less damage overall compared to strength based attacks.

But I digress. Range is really useful.

Super strong characters have range-any object they can pick up becomes a weapon. I literally just had the example super strong character throw a person for 129 damage (2d4x10+PS bonus). If he was supernaturally strong and picked up a car, it would have been worse.

Super strength also gives you super jumps. It's not flight, but it gets you places.

SS has utility-lift things, carry injured or civilians to safety.

Energy blast has none of that.

check out the range for thrown weapons. They can't actually throw high enough to hit near EE's range even with the SN PS boost.

[Tywyll]

check out the range for thrown weapons. They can't actually throw high enough to hit near EE's range even with the SN PS boost.

Oh, no doubt, but they still have a 'ranged attack' at their disposal. The point is that Str has a ton of utility that pure EE does not. On top of that, EE is weaker at damage usually than mid to high PS.

Sure, a flying blaster can nickle and dime a target in the open to death, but if they don't also fly, that range is rarely super advantageous. Also the target has to willingly remain in the open. But in the usual environments, urban sprawls, megavillain lairs, etc that range's benefit is severely reduced.

And Str still can do more damage. And carry things. And jump. And catch heavy things. And throw things. And....

EE can maybe set something on fire/put out a fire? Do less damage than a gun?

[Tywyll]

Maybe if the damage were something like 1d6x10 and then increased by a 1d6x10 at levels 3, 6, 9, 12 or 4, 8, 12 or something?

Maybe 1d4x10?

[jaymz]

Huh....pointing how a person's complaint is flawed and how, is now considered being hostile, a fanboy, and believing the system is perfect.....who knew. Fanboy is something I've never been accused on these boards....keep obfuscating and playing the victim while ignoring how your complaint has be debunked though...its starting to be entertaining.

[jaymz]

To further this..by midlevel most EEs do in fact do as much damage as your op strength example ranging from 6d6 and up at that point. So just because they dont do the same damage at 1 st level doesnt make them worse..not to mention, again, you stacked a major power on top to get the strength level you achieved. But please keep complaining its unbalanced.....because "reasons"

[Tywyll]

To further this..by midlevel most EEs do in fact do as much damage as your op strength example ranging from 6d6 and up at that point. So just because they dont do the same damage at 1 st level doesnt make them worse..not to mention, again, you stacked a major power on top to get the strength level you achieved. But please keep complaining its unbalanced.....because "reasons"

In what world does 6d6=1d4+54?

Even without the extra points from APS: Stone, the damage still would end up being around 1d4+35 which, again, in what world is 6d6 'as much damage'? Until you reach 11d6 you don't even do as much damage on average.

And the reasons have been clearly laid out repeatedly, but you know, keep ignoring them because you can't argue against them.

[Tywyll]

Huh....pointing how a person's complaint is flawed and how, is now considered being hostile, a fanboy, and believing the system is perfect.....who knew. Fanboy is something I've never been accused on these boards....keep obfuscating and playing the victim while ignoring how your complaint has be debunked though...its starting to be entertaining.

Sorry you are so offended. I thought you were 'out' of this conversation? Why do you keep coming back?

I'm still waiting for someone to 'debunk' my argument. You certainly haven't, and you ignore it when shown your argument doesn't hold water.

[jaymz]

Oh I am not offended however when someone throws derogatory comments my way I tend to step back in.
So I’ll demonstrate again how your complaint is debunked.

Complaint 1 ee is less powerful than guns
Complaint 2 ee is less powerful than super strength (example given is 1d4+34 ignoring that you achieved it by stacking on a major power)
Of course your assertion is based solely on damage dealt and nothing else really and since this initial assertion you’ve tried to obfuscate and improve the parameters of your initial complaint.

The typical ee does 2d6-3d6 damage at first level. That is equal to a shot from an average handgun (.32, .38 and 9mm) in the hu rulebook.

The typical ee does 6d6-7d6 at 5th level. That is equal to a shot from any rifle listed in The hu rulebook.
That damage level is also on par with your 1d4+34 damage punch.
Ee will also far outrange whatever you can throw.
Ee can also be better regulated in regards to damage being dealt than your punch can via pulled punch at this point

Maybe instead of trying to dismiss those that disagree with you as hostile, and fanboys who think the system is perfect (the latter two being things I’ve never been or done) you crack open the books and make comparisons with the actual number that are in there.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I think something to keep in mind is that I don't think this comparison is apples to apples. The Argument is over 1 character with Energy Expulsion not being as useful as someone with Superhuman Strength, APS Stone, and Extraordinary PE.

SO lets translate that:

"This one minor power doesn't hold a candle to one MAJOR power and two minors"

This is the logical and expected outcome. Your comparing the utility of a single minor to two minors and a major. Of course it doesn't hold up.

[Incriptus]

Back to your earlier comment, any particular reason why you think EE should key off PE or ME? Just curious. I agree that a stat modifier would be good. I also think that if there is a way to make it more like 1dxY would also be helpful (less swingy).

I think I would go with P.E. if I decided that energy expulsion was tied to someone's "life force", so the healthier, or the more they can endure the larger the output. Alternatively I wouldn't mind if the EE was an extension of one's mind/will power.

Hey Inscriptus, I just wanted to say thank you for engaging with me on this topic. It seems I really poked the bear apparently and upset some fanboys for daring to suggest a houserule to Kevin's 'perfect' system. I've learned that this board is hostile to new people who don't toe the line apparently, which is sad, but there it is. Anyway, I appreciate you actually listening and giving me food for thought.

I shouldn't respond to this part but again I'm going to.

I don't think you're being fair. I (we) are often called upon to defend the system against people who say it is "unplayable". I've been playing the games for ... lets say 25 years. So it's clearly not "unplayable". I do think that Energy Expulsion is "under powered" but it's not "waaaaay underpowered". So it's not that anyone thinks Kev's system is perfect, but that the attacks on it are more intense than they should be. On that subject, you're attack above is stronger than it should be.

[Daniel Stoker]

I think something to keep in mind is that I don't think this comparison is apples to apples. The Argument is over 1 character with Energy Expulsion not being as useful as someone with Superhuman Strength, APS Stone, and Extraordinary PE.

SO lets translate that:

"This one minor power doesn't hold a candle to one MAJOR power and two minors"

This is the logical and expected outcome. Your comparing the utility of a single minor to two minors and a major. Of course it doesn't hold up.

Yeah, I'm late into this, but I think Nek has broken down the issue pretty well here with this post and I have to agree with her.


Daniel Stoker

[Tywyll]

I think something to keep in mind is that I don't think this comparison is apples to apples. The Argument is over 1 character with Energy Expulsion not being as useful as someone with Superhuman Strength, APS Stone, and Extraordinary PE.

SO lets translate that:

"This one minor power doesn't hold a candle to one MAJOR power and two minors"

This is the logical and expected outcome. Your comparing the utility of a single minor to two minors and a major. Of course it doesn't hold up.

Ext PE has negligible impact in this discussion.

My argument is over strength overall, which I have stated repeatedly. I've even reduced the example to just the superhuman as case in point. As I have said repeatedly, this is both about Str's damage out put and utility, neither field in which EE can come close. This leaves an entire comic archetype woefully underpowered.

But if you want apples to apples, what Major ability augments your EE and makes it stronger? There are plenty that boost PS.

[Tywyll]

Back to your earlier comment, any particular reason why you think EE should key off PE or ME? Just curious. I agree that a stat modifier would be good. I also think that if there is a way to make it more like 1dxY would also be helpful (less swingy).

I think I would go with P.E. if I decided that energy expulsion was tied to someone's "life force", so the healthier, or the more they can endure the larger the output. Alternatively I wouldn't mind if the EE was an extension of one's mind/will power.

Interesting, I'll give that some thought. Too bad there isn't a stat linked to perception.

Hey Inscriptus, I just wanted to say thank you for engaging with me on this topic. It seems I really poked the bear apparently and upset some fanboys for daring to suggest a houserule to Kevin's 'perfect' system. I've learned that this board is hostile to new people who don't toe the line apparently, which is sad, but there it is. Anyway, I appreciate you actually listening and giving me food for thought.

I shouldn't respond to this part but again I'm going to.

I don't think you're being fair. I (we) are often called upon to defend the system against people who say it is "unplayable". I've been playing the games for ... lets say 25 years. So it's clearly not "unplayable". I do think that Energy Expulsion is "under powered" but it's not "waaaaay underpowered". So it's not that anyone thinks Kev's system is perfect, but that the attacks on it are more intense than they should be. On that subject, you're attack above is stronger than it should be.[/quote]

As someone who just spent years in the OSR scene I get that attacks against older systems you like can annoy. However this didn't start that way, I was looking for house rules to fix something I don't like...something I am used to from the more DIY element of the OSR community. What I got and continue to get is screeds telling me I am wrong for wanting to change something. That's...pretty different from what I expected. As the person on the receiving end of the aggression from certain posters, I think I get to make the call on what it feels like. It is why I went out of my way to thank you, to recognise that it wasn't everyone. He'll, even modern DND boards are more accomodating to people wanting to houserule stuff.

To be clear, I've played Palladium games since Pf 1St ed, HU 1St ed, and Rifts 1St ed. I gave up on it years ago though I am currently running a game of hU2. I never thought the game was unplayable, put I don't think it is well designed or that it has kept up with any sort of advances in game development. Even in the OSR you find people who embrace some modernisms. That said, it does have a place of fondness in my heart.

[dreicunan]

You've misidentified the issue. Energy Expulsion works pretty well as a minor power in relation to other minor powers. The problem with any kind of exceptional strength stat (superhuman or otherwise) is that the damage is a static add. Worse, it goes up per single point, so with the stength powers you quickly get into a situation where the damage dice (be it from a punch or a melee weapon) can end up being a pretty minor part of the damage. Fixing this issue would make more sense.

[Pepsi Jedi]

As someone who just spent years in the OSR scene I get that attacks against older systems you like can annoy. However this didn't start that way, I was looking for house rules to fix something I don't like...something I am used to from the more DIY element of the OSR community. What I got and continue to get is screeds telling me I am wrong for wanting to change something. That's...pretty different from what I expected. As the person on the receiving end of the aggression from certain posters, I think I get to make the call on what it feels like. It is why I went out of my way to thank you, to recognise that it wasn't everyone. He'll, even modern DND boards are more accomodating to people wanting to houserule stuff.

To be clear, I've played Palladium games since Pf 1St ed, HU 1St ed, and Rifts 1St ed. I gave up on it years ago though I am currently running a game of hU2. I never thought the game was unplayable, put I don't think it is well designed or that it has kept up with any sort of advances in game development. Even in the OSR you find people who embrace some modernisms. That said, it does have a place of fondness in my heart.

Part of the "Problem" Is your "Problem"
Combined with a know it all attitude.
And the fact you're not using RAW.

The "Problem" You have is that you've twinked out a char to be a super tank and are shocked that it does a lot of damage and are focusing on EE vs the super tank that you built. The problem isn't the EE. It's the twinked out build.
You built it, using house rules. Not RAW.

The simple answer, you're not going to like. Actually make the character right and it won't come out with anywhere CLOSE To the strength you've 'given' it. If you read up you just 'decided' to start with a base strength of 19, and then gave it the max at every level to stack stuff up. If you don't want a super strong char to be doing outrageous amounts of damage. Don't purpose build it to do so. You've stated you chose the powers. So.. don't stack them. Instead of taking an APS stone char who's strength is superhuman by default. Don't stack another strength power onto him. Don't just decide that your "Starting point" for the super strong char far exceeds human norm (a strength of 19) If you're going to assume stats, start him at an average stat of 9. if you don't want the super strong char to be SOO strong, then don't take bunches of physical skills to boost the strength. That's a mini/maxing 'trick' to get more damage. One or two physicls? Ok. But stacking those will cause that inflation. (And while good for twinking a char, makes for a silly character when you look at it.)

That's the 'fix' to your problem. Will a char that is APS Stone be strong? Sure.

Average roll of strength, will be 9-11 or so. Add on lets say 3 strength from physicals, str is 12-14. Add on APS stone and when you rock out your strength goes to 30-32. Your str bonus to punches is +15.

Pretty strong. For sure, But you're not punching through the earth's crust with that. Characters are still going to have great incentive not to get right up on you (As they should with any bruiser) but you haven't purpose built the char to do outrageous amounts of damage, by taking advantage of the 'mechanics' of the system.

If you
1) Choose to use house rules
2) Choose to start from an absurdly high starting point.
3) Choose your powers and Stack Str powers on Str powers
4) Stack bunches of physicals for MORE strength

The problem isn't with APS stone, or Superhuman strength. It's with your build. You've chosen to 'twink' the character build, and you've created exactly what you tried to create.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I think something to keep in mind is that I don't think this comparison is apples to apples. The Argument is over 1 character with Energy Expulsion not being as useful as someone with Superhuman Strength, APS Stone, and Extraordinary PE.

SO lets translate that:

"This one minor power doesn't hold a candle to one MAJOR power and two minors"

This is the logical and expected outcome. Your comparing the utility of a single minor to two minors and a major. Of course it doesn't hold up.

Ext PE has negligible impact in this discussion.

My argument is over strength overall, which I have stated repeatedly. I've even reduced the example to just the superhuman as case in point. As I have said repeatedly, this is both about Str's damage out put and utility, neither field in which EE can come close. This leaves an entire comic archetype woefully underpowered.

But if you want apples to apples, what Major ability augments your EE and makes it stronger? There are plenty that boost PS.

Super Energy Expulsion is a more powerful Energy Expulsion and can be any type of minor EE energy type.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Big Strong Dude:

I smash you with my mega-super-fist!!!!!!

Me:

I parry. I take no damage. And i still have all my attacks per round. Parrying is free, after all.

Big Strong Dude:

.... well played sir.

Conversely:

Energy Expulsion Guy:

I blast you from several hundred feet away.

Me:

I try to dodge. Hope i succeed. Hope i have more attacks than you do.

Chances are good i never get to actually attack, even if i successfully take no damage. (Which isnt likely as you're at a penalty to dodge energy blasts and bullets, and maybe even straight dice rolls + penalties, i dont recall the Heroes canon rule for this at the moment).

Him:

Suck it, blue.

Trust me, its balanced just fine.

At first level they already do as much damage as a handgun. And it only goes up from there. You have to spend attacks dodging energy blast fire, whereas i can parry all day every day and make that tanky guy do zero damage.

The likeyhood of him having high damage bonuses AND high strike and parry bonuses is quite slim; depending on how i'm built, im probably going to parry his attacks ~60-70% of the time (hes swinging fists, im parrying with weapons).

I mean, im not saying the super strong guy is useless, but ignoring range as a factor is silly, and ignoring the fact that it is ABSURDLY easier to mitigate melee damage than it is ranged, particularly ranged ENERGY damage.

Theyre fairly easily balanced.

And if i have a flight power (2 or 3 of which are Minor powers as well) to go with my EE power? LOL big guy, youll never touch me.