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 Post subject: Aiming with Firearms
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:50 am
  

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Dungeon Crawler

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Am I reading this correctly? Are aimed shots really the default? Do I really add my aim bonus to attacks with a pistol without having to take an additional action? If so, why is HU2 so different from the other game lines in this regard?

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 Post subject: Re: Aiming with Firearms
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:43 am
  

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Comment: "Setting the Stage" - Rifter 79
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The rules got updated. A single action shot has +1 strike. An assumed shot takes two actions and is +3 strike. And if course an assumed called shot takes three

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 Post subject: Re: Aiming with Firearms
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:12 pm
  

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Dungeon Crawler

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Comment: If I could go back in time, I would join the cast of "The Thrilling Adventure Hour"
zerombr wrote:
The rules got updated. A single action shot has +1 strike. An assumed shot takes two actions and is +3 strike. And if course an assumed called shot takes three

Okay, thank you. It seemed odd that HU2 would be so different than the other games where firearms are concerned.

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taalismn wrote:
Hey, you came up with a novel, attention-getting idea, you did the legwork, you worked it through, you made it fit the setting, even though initial thought might be 'nah, it can't work, it's too silly/stupid/lame', and you posted something that only required a little adjustment, yet can be added to, without diluting its original concept. How can we not give you due support and credit?


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 Post subject: Re: Aiming with Firearms
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:11 pm
  

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Comment: "Setting the Stage" - Rifter 79
"Hitting the Streets" - Rifter 81
"Hitting the Gym" - Rifter 82
Egg the rules got updated since then. It happens

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Author of "Setting the Stage" - Rifter 79, "Hitting the Streets" - Rifter 81, "Hitting the Gym" - Rifter 82
"Saving the World", and "On the Hunt" - Rifter 83
and lastly, my baby, my long term project... The Dark City of Cascade - Rifter 84.


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 Post subject: Re: Aiming with Firearms
Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:20 pm
  

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Palladin

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zerombr wrote:
The rules got updated. A single action shot has +1 strike. An assumed shot takes two actions and is +3 strike. And if course an assumed called shot takes three

When and where did the rules get updated?
Just curious.
If this was a shadow update what edition has the change?

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 Post subject: Re: Aiming with Firearms
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:44 am
  

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Heroes Unlimited has not been updated to use the firearm rules that Rifts Ultimate Edition and later books use. In Heroes Unlimited aimed shots are the default, but that assumes you are standing still while firing. Any sort of movement turns it into a wild shot. When playing Heroes Unlimired you can use the rules as presented in that book - they're functional. Heroes Unlimited uses the firearm rules that were standard for all Palladium Megaversal system games published in the 1990's.

Super heroes just aren't popular enough these days to justify updating and re-releasing the book using the modern combat rules Palladium currently publishes in their books.

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 Post subject: Re: Aiming with Firearms
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:44 am
  

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Dungeon Crawler

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Comment: If I could go back in time, I would join the cast of "The Thrilling Adventure Hour"
Okay, so it's rules hold over, not special case. Makes sense.

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taalismn wrote:
Hey, you came up with a novel, attention-getting idea, you did the legwork, you worked it through, you made it fit the setting, even though initial thought might be 'nah, it can't work, it's too silly/stupid/lame', and you posted something that only required a little adjustment, yet can be added to, without diluting its original concept. How can we not give you due support and credit?


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 Post subject: Re: Aiming with Firearms
Unread postPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 12:40 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
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It's pretty much the same situation with Nightbane and Systems Failure and Macross, the newer "2 actions to aim" rules are only in RUE / Robotech Shadow Chronicles / Dead Reign / Splicers AFAIK


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 Post subject: Re: Aiming with Firearms
Unread postPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 3:04 pm
  

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Monk

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Axelmania wrote:
It's pretty much the same situation with Nightbane and Systems Failure and Macross, the newer "2 actions to aim" rules are only in RUE / Robotech Shadow Chronicles / Dead Reign / Splicers AFAIK


A simpler way to note is that the new "2 actions to aim rule" comes with the newer modern weapon WP's where they give various bonuses to shoot at various levels. Previously all modern weapon proficiencies gave +3 at level 1 and +1 every 4 levels as a blanket rule. Now the Weapon Proficencies start with a smaller bonus that grows larger over time, depending on the precise W.P., but the Aimed shot bonus is reduced to +2 rather than +3 and takes two, while when Aimed shot takes only one action the +3 bonus was the W.P. from weapon profiencies.

It's not better or worse, but it's more tied to the mechanics of the weapon profiencies.

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 Post subject: Re: Aiming with Firearms
Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:03 pm
  

Champion

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 1862
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
It's pretty much the same situation with Nightbane and Systems Failure and Macross, the newer "2 actions to aim" rules are only in RUE / Robotech Shadow Chronicles / Dead Reign / Splicers AFAIK


A simpler way to note is that the new "2 actions to aim rule" comes with the newer modern weapon WP's where they give various bonuses to shoot at various levels. Previously all modern weapon proficiencies gave +3 at level 1 and +1 every 4 levels as a blanket rule. Now the Weapon Proficencies start with a smaller bonus that grows larger over time, depending on the precise W.P., but the Aimed shot bonus is reduced to +2 rather than +3 and takes two, while when Aimed shot takes only one action the +3 bonus was the W.P. from weapon profiencies.

It's not better or worse, but it's more tied to the mechanics of the weapon profiencies.


Your numbers are off on the "old style" modern W.P.s

They were all blanket +3 aimed/+1 burst at level 1, and gained +1 strike every 3 levels (3, 6, 9, 12, 15). So at level 9, you were +6 aimed/+4 burst.

They were basically re-worded in the "new" versions to show the "base" strike bonus first, and there is a blanket "and if you aim, add +2" - this is actually exactly the same as it used to be, (since you were +1 to strike at level 1, and +3 when aiming, this was effectively +2 for aiming, even back in the day) except now the "base" strike bonus varies per WP instead of being all the same.

Honestly, i dont really think anything was added by making "aimed" shots take 2 attacks or changing the WPs to have strike bonuses at different levels from each other. It just made things more complicated for not a lot of benefit, but it is what it is.

Personally, where im going with my rewrite is: (with a WP)

* You do not incur the -6 penalty for Shooting Wild
* Modern WPs provide +1 to strike at all odd levels (for any attack)
* Taking a single, steady shot is an additional +2 to strike (this replaces the "old" Aimed Shot) and is one action. MOST of the bonuses to "aimed" shots will apply to this (bonuses from Wilks weapons in Rifts, sights (but not scopes), laser targeter, etc). Sniper would not, for instance, nor scopes, as previously mentioned)
* Aiming adds +1 to strike per action used to "Aim". ALL bonuses that used to apply to Aimed shots (Sniper, Scopes, manufacturer/weapon bonuses that now apply to steady/single shots) apply. If you are forced to dodge/take an action that displaces you before you fire, your aim is ruined (start over); you can maintain this between rounds (curently, testing for balance via math, considering capping this at you-must-fire-at-the-end-of-the-round)
* Yes, you can Aim "select fire" bursts, like pulses or three-round bursts from an M4/M16, etc. Aimed Bursts cant take advantage of scopes, sniper skill, or the steady shot bonus (obviously). Fully automatic fire cannot be aimed.
* Called shots do not take an additional attack, but require a target number (still working out how high this should be) - that may be INCREASED when trying to fire at particularly small targets (will be noted in the item/armor/whatever description). As an example, the "base" called shot number might be 15; if you want to shoot the ammo feed from that minigun on the side of the helicopter, you might be at an additional -6 (or, more precisely, in the new wording, +6 to the target number to hit the small target, so a total of 21) to hit; - so, if you dont roll a 21, you hit the main body.

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 Post subject: Re: Aiming with Firearms
Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 3:09 am
  

Hero

Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:49 am
Posts: 1264
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
It's pretty much the same situation with Nightbane and Systems Failure and Macross, the newer "2 actions to aim" rules are only in RUE / Robotech Shadow Chronicles / Dead Reign / Splicers AFAIK


A simpler way to note is that the new "2 actions to aim rule" comes with the newer modern weapon WP's where they give various bonuses to shoot at various levels. Previously all modern weapon proficiencies gave +3 at level 1 and +1 every 4 levels as a blanket rule. Now the Weapon Proficencies start with a smaller bonus that grows larger over time, depending on the precise W.P., but the Aimed shot bonus is reduced to +2 rather than +3 and takes two, while when Aimed shot takes only one action the +3 bonus was the W.P. from weapon profiencies.

It's not better or worse, but it's more tied to the mechanics of the weapon profiencies.


Your numbers are off on the "old style" modern W.P.s

They were all blanket +3 aimed/+1 burst at level 1, and gained +1 strike every 3 levels (3, 6, 9, 12, 15). So at level 9, you were +6 aimed/+4 burst.

They were basically re-worded in the "new" versions to show the "base" strike bonus first, and there is a blanket "and if you aim, add +2" - this is actually exactly the same as it used to be, (since you were +1 to strike at level 1, and +3 when aiming, this was effectively +2 for aiming, even back in the day) except now the "base" strike bonus varies per WP instead of being all the same.

Honestly, i dont really think anything was added by making "aimed" shots take 2 attacks or changing the WPs to have strike bonuses at different levels from each other. It just made things more complicated for not a lot of benefit, but it is what it is.

Personally, where im going with my rewrite is: (with a WP)

* You do not incur the -6 penalty for Shooting Wild
* Modern WPs provide +1 to strike at all odd levels (for any attack)
* Taking a single, steady shot is an additional +2 to strike (this replaces the "old" Aimed Shot) and is one action. MOST of the bonuses to "aimed" shots will apply to this (bonuses from Wilks weapons in Rifts, sights (but not scopes), laser targeter, etc). Sniper would not, for instance, nor scopes, as previously mentioned)
* Aiming adds +1 to strike per action used to "Aim". ALL bonuses that used to apply to Aimed shots (Sniper, Scopes, manufacturer/weapon bonuses that now apply to steady/single shots) apply. If you are forced to dodge/take an action that displaces you before you fire, your aim is ruined (start over); you can maintain this between rounds (curently, testing for balance via math, considering capping this at you-must-fire-at-the-end-of-the-round)
* Yes, you can Aim "select fire" bursts, like pulses or three-round bursts from an M4/M16, etc. Aimed Bursts cant take advantage of scopes, sniper skill, or the steady shot bonus (obviously). Fully automatic fire cannot be aimed.
* Called shots do not take an additional attack, but require a target number (still working out how high this should be) - that may be INCREASED when trying to fire at particularly small targets (will be noted in the item/armor/whatever description). As an example, the "base" called shot number might be 15; if you want to shoot the ammo feed from that minigun on the side of the helicopter, you might be at an additional -6 (or, more precisely, in the new wording, +6 to the target number to hit the small target, so a total of 21) to hit; - so, if you dont roll a 21, you hit the main body.
I'd be hesitant to require that the shot be taken at the end of a round, mainly because rounds aren't a thing for the characters, just an organizing feature for players. It might make more sense to just cap the amount of bonus you can get from aiming. At a certain point your aim just isn't going to improve. Say, having a WP gives you a max of +2 at level one, and that max increases by 1 every even level, so at level 6 you could get up to +5 to strike by spending 5 actions aiming. The exact numbers are just off the top of my head, could just as easily be at every 3rd level starting at level 3 or whatever progession one wanted.

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Declared the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not by Axelmania on 5.11.19.


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 Post subject: Re: Aiming with Firearms
Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:45 am
  

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Hero

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So my understanding/justification/head-canon has always been that aimed shots are the default because it doesn't take a full melee action to pull a trigger. Thus if you are taking 3-5 seconds to fire a single bullet it is because you're using an aimed shot. Characters with weapon proficiency fire bursts* for the extra damage, despite it being a little less accurate

And remember this is just the case for characters with W.P. in that modern weapon. People who are not proficient are rolling with no bonuses on aimed shots and are essentially firing wild (-6, no bonuses) when trying to fire bursts*.




*per another thread, a better term might be Rapid Fire instead of Burst Fire


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 Post subject: Re: Aiming with Firearms
Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:20 am
  

Champion

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 1862
Incriptus wrote:
So my understanding/justification/head-canon has always been that aimed shots are the default because it doesn't take a full melee action to pull a trigger. Thus if you are taking 3-5 seconds to fire a single bullet it is because you're using an aimed shot. Characters with weapon proficiency fire bursts* for the extra damage, despite it being a little less accurate

And remember this is just the case for characters with W.P. in that modern weapon. People who are not proficient are rolling with no bonuses on aimed shots and are essentially firing wild (-6, no bonuses) when trying to fire bursts*.




*per another thread, a better term might be Rapid Fire instead of Burst Fire


Remember that “aimed shot” is no longer the base state of affairs in some Palladium games (it still is in HU2, AFAIK), so some people will be somewhat confused.

In Rifts, for instance, the base attack is now “single shot”, not “aimed shot”. Aimed shots take two actions.

AFAIK only Rifts and perhaps the newer iteration of Robotech use that rule, but since that is a lot of people’s first exposure to Palladium, the older rules still found in HU2 and other games may confuse people.

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 Post subject: Re: Aiming with Firearms
Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:22 am
  

Champion

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 1862
dreicunan wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
It's pretty much the same situation with Nightbane and Systems Failure and Macross, the newer "2 actions to aim" rules are only in RUE / Robotech Shadow Chronicles / Dead Reign / Splicers AFAIK


A simpler way to note is that the new "2 actions to aim rule" comes with the newer modern weapon WP's where they give various bonuses to shoot at various levels. Previously all modern weapon proficiencies gave +3 at level 1 and +1 every 4 levels as a blanket rule. Now the Weapon Proficencies start with a smaller bonus that grows larger over time, depending on the precise W.P., but the Aimed shot bonus is reduced to +2 rather than +3 and takes two, while when Aimed shot takes only one action the +3 bonus was the W.P. from weapon profiencies.

It's not better or worse, but it's more tied to the mechanics of the weapon profiencies.


Your numbers are off on the "old style" modern W.P.s

They were all blanket +3 aimed/+1 burst at level 1, and gained +1 strike every 3 levels (3, 6, 9, 12, 15). So at level 9, you were +6 aimed/+4 burst.

They were basically re-worded in the "new" versions to show the "base" strike bonus first, and there is a blanket "and if you aim, add +2" - this is actually exactly the same as it used to be, (since you were +1 to strike at level 1, and +3 when aiming, this was effectively +2 for aiming, even back in the day) except now the "base" strike bonus varies per WP instead of being all the same.

Honestly, i dont really think anything was added by making "aimed" shots take 2 attacks or changing the WPs to have strike bonuses at different levels from each other. It just made things more complicated for not a lot of benefit, but it is what it is.

Personally, where im going with my rewrite is: (with a WP)

* You do not incur the -6 penalty for Shooting Wild
* Modern WPs provide +1 to strike at all odd levels (for any attack)
* Taking a single, steady shot is an additional +2 to strike (this replaces the "old" Aimed Shot) and is one action. MOST of the bonuses to "aimed" shots will apply to this (bonuses from Wilks weapons in Rifts, sights (but not scopes), laser targeter, etc). Sniper would not, for instance, nor scopes, as previously mentioned)
* Aiming adds +1 to strike per action used to "Aim". ALL bonuses that used to apply to Aimed shots (Sniper, Scopes, manufacturer/weapon bonuses that now apply to steady/single shots) apply. If you are forced to dodge/take an action that displaces you before you fire, your aim is ruined (start over); you can maintain this between rounds (curently, testing for balance via math, considering capping this at you-must-fire-at-the-end-of-the-round)
* Yes, you can Aim "select fire" bursts, like pulses or three-round bursts from an M4/M16, etc. Aimed Bursts cant take advantage of scopes, sniper skill, or the steady shot bonus (obviously). Fully automatic fire cannot be aimed.
* Called shots do not take an additional attack, but require a target number (still working out how high this should be) - that may be INCREASED when trying to fire at particularly small targets (will be noted in the item/armor/whatever description). As an example, the "base" called shot number might be 15; if you want to shoot the ammo feed from that minigun on the side of the helicopter, you might be at an additional -6 (or, more precisely, in the new wording, +6 to the target number to hit the small target, so a total of 21) to hit; - so, if you dont roll a 21, you hit the main body.
I'd be hesitant to require that the shot be taken at the end of a round, mainly because rounds aren't a thing for the characters, just an organizing feature for players. It might make more sense to just cap the amount of bonus you can get from aiming. At a certain point your aim just isn't going to improve. Say, having a WP gives you a max of +2 at level one, and that max increases by 1 every even level, so at level 6 you could get up to +5 to strike by spending 5 actions aiming. The exact numbers are just off the top of my head, could just as easily be at every 3rd level starting at level 3 or whatever progession one wanted.


I really hadn’t run the numbers yet. Its all still just notes on notecards and entered into various note-taking apps.

It might not even be a serious issue just letting the bonus build up, or putting a high cap on it.. i mean, if you’re willing to sit out 2 rounds to get +X to hit for one single shot... is that really an issue?

Ill need to math it out.

_________________
Im loving the Foes list; it's the only thing keeping me from tearing out my eyes from the dumb.


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 Post subject: Re: Aiming with Firearms
Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:25 am
  

Hero

Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:49 am
Posts: 1264
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
I really hadn’t run the numbers yet. Its all still just notes on notecards and entered into various note-taking apps.

It might not even be a serious issue just letting the bonus build up, or putting a high cap on it.. i mean, if you’re willing to sit out 2 rounds to get +X to hit for one single shot... is that really an issue?

Ill need to math it out.
It likely isn't really an issue, in large part due to non-math reasons; how often can someone actually keep their aim on a target during combat for two entire rounds? And further developing your point, the character aiming for that long has passed up a lot of opportunities to contribute to the fight. It would be a pretty niche situation where the math would even support trying to aim for than a few actions.

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You of course, being the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not.
Declared the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not by Axelmania on 5.11.19.


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