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 Post subject: Starting gear
Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:14 am
  

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Hero

Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:24 pm
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Hey guys I think we should update the starting gear tables. What do you all think?


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 Post subject: Re: Starting gear
Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:43 am
  

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Palladin

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Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
I think the entire game needs an update it's almost 4 decades old.

But.. to answer your direct question. Yes. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Starting gear
Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:24 pm
  

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Pepsi Jedi wrote:
I think the entire game needs an update it's almost 4 decades old.

But.. to answer your direct question. Yes. :D

Other than gear, what would you suggest be updated?

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 Post subject: Re: Starting gear
Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:05 pm
  

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Pepsi Jedi wrote:
I think the entire game needs an update it's almost 4 decades old.

But.. to answer your direct question. Yes. :D

I have always thought that it would be a good idea for all of the modern setting games (HU, BTS, Nightbane, Dead Reign, etc.) to have only truly specialized, fictional, gear in the books and leave out the common materials and modern weapons. You then put all of that into system wide source book that you could revise and update on a regular basis. Keep characters starting equipment to amount of money for several different categories and then you can avoid these embarrassing and dated equipment references.

Jack Burton wrote:
Other than gear, what would you suggest be updated?

From Palladium Fantasy to Rifts I have seen lots of people suggest that PB needs to revamp its system, and to a certain extent I agree. I just don't see them having time to do this since the company seems to be barely hanging on and has a hard time getting books out under the current system.

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 Post subject: Re: Starting gear
Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:52 pm
  

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Palladium Books® Freelance Writer

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Comment: The greatest part of the writer's time is spent in reading, in order to write: a man will turn over half a library to make one book. - Samuel Johnson, 1775
I'd say smartphone but oops such equipment currently doesn't exists in HU2nd Edition (1997) and certainly not at the price indicated. Then
again how would a hero be a hero if he were checking his messages always and playing "Words with Friends" when he suppose to be on
patrol.


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 Post subject: Re: Starting gear
Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:41 pm
  

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Knight

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Pfft, who needs to patrol when you can use group chats on your smart phone to map out trouble areas and the like.


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 Post subject: Re: Starting gear
Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:58 pm
  

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I think they need an entire book dedicated to this subject. Creating tables is not sufficient when your gear to select from is out of date.

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 Post subject: Re: Starting gear
Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:25 pm
  

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Priest

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Reagren Wright wrote:
I'd say smartphone but oops such equipment currently doesn't exists in HU2nd Edition (1997) and certainly not at the price indicated. Then
again how would a hero be a hero if he were checking his messages always and playing "Words with Friends" when he suppose to be on
patrol.


Blue Tooth for those without hands. :P

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"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
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 Post subject: Re: Starting gear
Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:34 am
  

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taalismn wrote:
Reagren Wright wrote:
I'd say smartphone but oops such equipment currently doesn't exists in HU2nd Edition (1997) and certainly not at the price indicated. Then
again how would a hero be a hero if he were checking his messages always and playing "Words with Friends" when he suppose to be on
patrol.


Blue Tooth for those without hands. :P

Wouldn't Siri take care of that?

_________________
Northern Gun Chief of Robotics
Designer of NG-X40 Storm Hammer Power Armor & NG-HC1000 Dragonfly Hover Chopper
Big game hunter, explorer extra ordinaire and expert on the Aegis Buffalo
Ultimate Insider - WB 32: Lemuria
Ultimate Insider - WB 33: Northern Gun 1
Ultimate Insider - WB 34: Northern Gun 2
Showdown Backer - Robotech RPG Tactics
Benefactor Insider - Rifts Bestiary: Volume 1


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 Post subject: Re: Starting gear
Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:43 am
  

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Palladin

Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:11 am
Posts: 8433
Location: Northern Gun
Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
Jack Burton wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
I think the entire game needs an update it's almost 4 decades old.

But.. to answer your direct question. Yes. :D

Other than gear, what would you suggest be updated?


Not trying to be funny or flip, but the entire system needs an update from A to Zed.

That's
1) Mechanics
2) Presentation
3) Content
4) Gear.

1) The Palladium mechanics are the same as they were in the early 80s. And for a first or even second try it's not THAT BAD, but it's not THAT GOOD, either. All of us have tons of house rules to cover things that either A) make no sense or B) are not even remotely covered. The base mechanics need a serious overhaul and all the rules compiled together. Not spread out over 50+ books. 50% in the base book and the other 50% spread out all to hell and back. Get them all, and for all that's holy, present them in a logical way. Do not have rules for attributes but hide HP and SDC 100s of pages later. Don't give half of character creation then give 100s of pages of setting and spells before you get to classes/occs. For the love of all things holy, go to a game store and see how other game companies lay out their books. Take notes.

Get the Mechanics hammered down. In a logical way. All in one spot.

2) Presentation. Again the books look... like they did in the early 80s. Which.. was ok for the early 80s but it's not the 80s.. it's not the 90s.. it's not the 00s, it's barely the teens. Get some hard cover books out there so we don't have to re-buy them over and over. Get some COLOR. I mean COME ON. It's 2018. Color is not only standard for the industry it has been for DECADES. Update layouts. Standard two column black and white with 25/50/100% black and white art pages is... from the 80s and early 90s. It's 2018. Get color. And by all that's holy stop giving out art commissions to your buddies. if you want to be taken seriously get serious artists on it. Chuck's good. Perez was good (Noted that he's gone on to professional work) Freddy Williams was good. (Again note he's gone on to professional work) Stop giving work to artists that..... 'draw good' from high school. Or ones that you know work cheep, just to have any old thing slopped on a page. 50 to 80% of the art in palladium is at the very best "Talented high school student" if that. ---if that--- Some of it looks like it was sketched on the back of a pizza napkin by someone's kid brother. (I'm looking at you Melee weapons chart). you need to modernize. Right now at the absolute very best Palladium is limping along on nostalgia by players in their late 30s, 40s and even 50s. Your playerbase is way aging out and ... dying off. You need something not from 1984 to pull in people and keep it going and get it off life support. The most recent Rifts book. Sovieteski, some of the art (Chuck Walton's) is nice. Other stuff in there just RIPS you out of the setting. It's real Moose and Squirrel type stuff. I'd be EMBARRASSED to publish alot of that art in 2018. One of the ultra modern MDC tanks has a giant gas tank on the back and is belching oil exhaust.... and MUCH of palladium art is just BAD. It just is. Get some GOOD artists. Some PROFESSIONAL artists, pay them what they're worth and step up the game and look of the books into the 2020s. You get work done on the cheep, you get cheep work. And again, visit a game store. Look at some of the stuff out there. There is NO EXCUSE for the bad art in palladium books. (Now art is subjective, and what I think is ugly others might like but any way you cut it, palladium needs to step up their game across the board in the Presentation department.)

3) Content: you need to modernize the system and the classes. Comics are great and HU is fun. (I've played it for decades) but as far as comic adaptations go it's.... ancient. Update the classes. Make them more modern and relevant. Not for nothing but a lot of the ultra super high tech stuff they discuss in the hardware category, I learned in high school 20 years ago. It's comical in today's world. I think As an example once a few years back right after my daughter was born I showed that via the HU rules it'd take like $20,000-$45,000 to produce the simple baby monitor I bought at Target for $200. As pointed out the highest tech in any HU book is a frigging Ngage. The content seriously needs to be updated.

And as an aside, while you're at it. take out the highly and utterly offensive "Insanity tables'.

But every class needs updating across the board. Some should go away, some should get bigger and more expanded.

4) This sort of touches on the above but not totally. Gear. The highest tech items in HU are roughly 1985. Even the "Sci fi" stuff from the books is coooooomically out of date. What looked fancy and high tech in the 80s is retro stuff these days. My 3 year old has a touch screen tablet in full color. And I'm by no means rich. She plays on her kindle every evening just before bed. She's THREE. The gear needs to be updated. Standardized, etc. This goes for not just tech but weapons as well.

And when it's updated.

GET

SOMEONE

THAT

KNOWS

WHAT

THEY

ARE

WRITING

ABOUT.

Palladium by and large are technophobes. Their customers. Are NOT. Get someone that's fired guns, that knows guns, to design the weapon damages. Once you have standard weapon damages for firearms, you can design the powers around those. If you know... a 9mm does X amount of damage..... then you can base your Energy Expulsion Energy off that. Do you want it to start at the same damage level as a 9mm, or do you want it to be more like an AR-15 shooting 5.56? Or more like a shoulder mounted rocket launcher? Etc.

Palladiums 'weapon' knowledge consists of late 70s and early 80s delta force movies and the like.

GET SOMEONE THAT KNOWS WHAT THEY'RE WRITING ABOUT to do the weapons. Likewise get someone that knows what they're writing about for the Military stuff and Vehicle stuff.

Then. GET SOMEONE THAT KNOWS WHAT THEY'RE WRITING ABOUT to design the gear section. When doing this don't give "Hard numbers" on such things as computers. Instead give "out of date" "Low end" "medium" "High end" and "Ultra high end". and list out what they could do, but understand those will change over time. So don't say "This computer comes with 1 Terabite of memory. because in a year or two that's out of date. give bonuses or minuses based on where it lands on that scale. Understanding modern tech is jumping ahead over and over again but no matter where you are on the bell curve there's going to be "out of date" "Low end" "medium," "high end" and "Ultra High end". Get someone that understands machines to write up vehicle rules. There's an infamous story about 'someone' at palladium refusing to believe a motorcycle had a certain part. Arguing with a writer or artist. Whom HAD a motorcycle. Swearing up and down that the guy was wrong. Till the guy took him out to the parking lot and POINTED to the part -on the bike-. Where in the person at Palladium muttered, mumbled and conceded that maybe SOME bikes had that part now... whatever" and went back inside.

Palladium has strengths. Their world building can be quite nice. But technology is NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT their strength. Instead. ---GET SOMEONE WHO'S STRENGTH IT IS--- to do that.

And ---purpose build it--- to 'grow' as technology grows. You don't have to say the MK2048 Computer has this much ram, this fast a processor and this much memory. Say the MK2048 is a top of the line machine and as such gives anyone using it a +15% on their computer rolls. Where in the MK1038 is a middle of the line machine and gives no benefits or penalties. The MK519.. Is an out of date low end computer that gives -10% on computer rolls due to being so old and out of date.

BOOM. Problem solved. Instead of sitting in 2040, looking at a book written in 2020, laughing at how stupid it looks to say a computer has 2 terabytes of memory when their home computers have multiple Exabyte systems (( A Exabyte holds about 1.5 billion CD roms worth of data. or 11,000,000 movies at ultra 4K HD, or the entire library of congress, 3,000 times over. ))

Instead in 2040, their 'high end system' gives a +15% bonus, and a crappy out of date system gives -10%. No matter 'what' high end and low end, 'is'.


These are what 'needs' to be updated. Along the line yes you'll hit "Starting gear" Just like the price ranges set in the early 80s are comically small in 2018, the starting gear would be adjusted. (And in the 'content/system' update the educational tables need a MAJOR overhaul.)

Can you play the game as it is now? Sure.

But your'e playing a game set/based mostly in the 80s, and if you set it modern day, you're not REAAAALY in modern day. You're in what people in the 80s thought 2020 might be.. but then again, not really people in the 80s thought 2020 would be Bladerunner. So it's a 'old' game with 'retro version' of a 'future' that we've already handily surpassed.

All in all it needs an across the board update.

Till then. We're playing the retro game. Which is fine. Can still be fun. I play Cosmic Patrol too, which is a 50s look on Sci Fi, with "Ray guns" and bubble helmets and 'rocket ships' and Martians etc. But Palladium isn't 'written' to be that way. Cozmic patrol is. It's SUPPOSED to be that. Palladium is just comically out of date and in serious need of update.

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 Post subject: Re: Starting gear
Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:51 pm
  

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I sought some input for a Rifter submission a month ago for an updated weapons compendium. I had over 300 new small arms and accessories to include pocket pistols, handguns, rifles, carbines, shotguns, submachine guns, grenade launchers, scopes, all of which were completely statted out. It was all brand new stuff, some of which was released within days of me adding it! I pitched it to Kevin in person back in April at the Open House and showed it to him on my laptop. I don't believe he'll go for it, though. He liked the IDEA of it, but flat out told me that he doesn't want to draw any more guns. He personally drew the weapons for the collections that we all know and love which appeared in the Heroes Unlimited Revised, Beyond the Supernatural, Nightbane, etc.

The problem with my weapons compendium (which is super awesome, IMHO) is that I used images from the internet for the firearms, which are mostly copyrighted images. I knew that it would a problem going in, but still included them as references for each weapon.... as placeholders for drawings, so to speak. For Palladium to publish it, the images of those weapons would all need to be hand drawn to make them original artwork that can be published. Im not getting my hopes up to see a new weapons compendium, even after I did all the technical work on the weapons, which honestly, was extremely time consuming to stat over 300 weapons out accurately and consistantly.

After I submitted what was a compendium fairly close to completion, along with a release form, I hear nothing. Not even a thanks, but no thanks. I'm not complaining about them not using it. That's fine. Although it was very hard to put together and took months, I had a good time doing it. I just didnt want to add more and more stuff without knowing if they'd use it, especially after the grim forecast from Kevin about the drawings. I submitted what I had to see if I was on the right track as far as what they were looking for. Radio silence.... I guess I can always let my own gaming group use it!

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 Post subject: Re: Starting gear
Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:39 am
  

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Adventurer

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Comment: "Setting the Stage" - Rifter 79
"Hitting the Streets" - Rifter 81
"Hitting the Gym" - Rifter 82
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Instead in 2040, their 'high end system' gives a +15% bonus, and a crappy out of date system gives -10%. No matter 'what' high end and low end, 'is'.


I did pretty much this for the equipment listed in the Super Sleuth article in 81. I just made kits instead of specific pieces, and gave bonuses.

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 Post subject: Re: Starting gear
Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:24 pm
  

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Jack Burton wrote:
I sought some input for a Rifter submission a month ago for an updated weapons compendium. I had over 300 new small arms and accessories to include pocket pistols, handguns, rifles, carbines, shotguns, submachine guns, grenade launchers, scopes, all of which were completely statted out. It was all brand new stuff, some of which was released within days of me adding it! I pitched it to Kevin in person back in April at the Open House and showed it to him on my laptop. I don't believe he'll go for it, though. He liked the IDEA of it, but flat out told me that he doesn't want to draw any more guns. He personally drew the weapons for the collections that we all know and love which appeared in the Heroes Unlimited Revised, Beyond the Supernatural, Nightbane, etc.

The problem with my weapons compendium (which is super awesome, IMHO) is that I used images from the internet for the firearms, which are mostly copyrighted images. I knew that it would a problem going in, but still included them as references for each weapon.... as placeholders for drawings, so to speak. For Palladium to publish it, the images of those weapons would all need to be hand drawn to make them original artwork that can be published. Im not getting my hopes up to see a new weapons compendium, even after I did all the technical work on the weapons, which honestly, was extremely time consuming to stat over 300 weapons out accurately and consistantly.

After I submitted what was a compendium fairly close to completion, along with a release form, I hear nothing. Not even a thanks, but no thanks. I'm not complaining about them not using it. That's fine. Although it was very hard to put together and took months, I had a good time doing it. I just didnt want to add more and more stuff without knowing if they'd use it, especially after the grim forecast from Kevin about the drawings. I submitted what I had to see if I was on the right track as far as what they were looking for. Radio silence.... I guess I can always let my own gaming group use it!

I think this has always been one of the PBs biggest problems in terms of submissions, Rifter and books. They don't communicate with people as to if they are interested in the material and what changes they want to see. I mean you don't expect them to give a writing course or anything but a simple email acknowledging receipt, yes interested/no not interested, make these changes, etc.

zerombr wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Instead in 2040, their 'high end system' gives a +15% bonus, and a crappy out of date system gives -10%. No matter 'what' high end and low end, 'is'.


I did pretty much this for the equipment listed in the Super Sleuth article in 81. I just made kits instead of specific pieces, and gave bonuses.

They did something like this in the Rifts Bionic SB with repair kits and Diagnostic machines. A system of high-tech gear with just bonuses and maybe range if applicable would probably work better.

_________________
Northern Gun Chief of Robotics
Designer of NG-X40 Storm Hammer Power Armor & NG-HC1000 Dragonfly Hover Chopper
Big game hunter, explorer extra ordinaire and expert on the Aegis Buffalo
Ultimate Insider - WB 32: Lemuria
Ultimate Insider - WB 33: Northern Gun 1
Ultimate Insider - WB 34: Northern Gun 2
Showdown Backer - Robotech RPG Tactics
Benefactor Insider - Rifts Bestiary: Volume 1


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 Post subject: Re: Starting gear
Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:32 pm
  

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Megaversal® Ambassador

Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 12:20 am
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Jack Burton wrote:
I sought some input for a Rifter submission a month ago for an updated weapons compendium. I had over 300 new small arms and accessories to include pocket pistols, handguns, rifles, carbines, shotguns, submachine guns, grenade launchers, scopes, all of which were completely statted out. It was all brand new stuff, some of which was released within days of me adding it! I pitched it to Kevin in person back in April at the Open House and showed it to him on my laptop. I don't believe he'll go for it, though. He liked the IDEA of it, but flat out told me that he doesn't want to draw any more guns. He personally drew the weapons for the collections that we all know and love which appeared in the Heroes Unlimited Revised, Beyond the Supernatural, Nightbane, etc.

The problem with my weapons compendium (which is super awesome, IMHO) is that I used images from the internet for the firearms, which are mostly copyrighted images. I knew that it would a problem going in, but still included them as references for each weapon.... as placeholders for drawings, so to speak. For Palladium to publish it, the images of those weapons would all need to be hand drawn to make them original artwork that can be published. Im not getting my hopes up to see a new weapons compendium, even after I did all the technical work on the weapons, which honestly, was extremely time consuming to stat over 300 weapons out accurately and consistantly.

After I submitted what was a compendium fairly close to completion, along with a release form, I hear nothing. Not even a thanks, but no thanks. I'm not complaining about them not using it. That's fine. Although it was very hard to put together and took months, I had a good time doing it. I just didnt want to add more and more stuff without knowing if they'd use it, especially after the grim forecast from Kevin about the drawings. I submitted what I had to see if I was on the right track as far as what they were looking for. Radio silence.... I guess I can always let my own gaming group use it!

Radio silence broken. Stay tuned...

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 Post subject: Re: Starting gear
Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:29 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 2:01 am
Posts: 3698
Location: Nashville.....ish....
Glad to hear it Jack. I think a lot of us have done something like you have described for a handful of weapons for our game, but nothing like 300.

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 Post subject: Re: Starting gear
Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:54 am
  

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Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 2:16 pm
Posts: 227
Location: Rifts Denmark
Comment: 44 years in denver, but now in grand rapids.
Nah, the game doesnt need any revisions. I distinctly remember the final entry in one of the tables about creating I forget... Like a planet or an alien world or an alien civilization or something and the entry specifically states that the technology level of the culture is super advanced and as such, the dm should feel free to increase the range/damage/effectiveness of similar tech by 40 to 60% above existing tech.

So like an Ngage... But like 60% more poweful.


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 Post subject: Re: Starting gear
Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:26 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 2:01 am
Posts: 3698
Location: Nashville.....ish....
N-Gage-S

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