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 Post subject: Enchanted Object rework
Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:24 pm
  

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Hero

Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:24 pm
Posts: 1334
Enchanted Object-
Make character as usual. At 3rd level the object bonds with the Keeper. The Object only works for the Keeper. The Keeper no longer ages. In addition the Keeper can now access more abilities from the Object gaining one of the following abilities at 3rd level, 6th level, and 9th level-
Pick or roll:
01-10 +1d6x10 SDC (mdc on magic rich worlds).
11-20 Impervious to Fire, and effects caused by fire such as heat and smoke.
21-40 Invisibility at will (60 minute intervals)
41-50 Flight 35 mph, may also hover (60 minute duration).
51-60 Impervious to Poison and Disease.
61-70 Shoot fire bolts from hands. (40' range, 3d6 damage, twice per melee each blast counts as an action).
71-80 +3 to save vs. psionics.
81-90 +1d4 to any attribute.
91-00 see magic at will.

This should bring the Enchanter Object to being a desirable character. Let me know what you all think!


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:55 pm
  

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Hero

Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:11 pm
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I do like the idea that someone with an enchanted object unlocking new abilities hidden within the object over time (as they gain new levels of experience). However, the listed abilities don't really provide that much of a power boost.

However, having the object bond with the user to the point where only he can use it doesn't hold up with many mythical objects that have been stolen from their owners and used against them (regardless of how long they were owned beforehand)... and providing eternal youth is a rarity for any object.

I would be more partial to either combining this list with additional powers/spells. All remain locked at the object's power level, just that the user has managed to unlock the new abilities. I would alternate between new Powers/Spells and new minor abilities (from this list). 1st, 7th and 13th levels the character gains a roll on the Spell or Super Ability table... while at 4th and 10th level the object rolls on the Other Abilities table. Regardless, all new abilities and spells are used at the level rolled on Power Level table.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:02 pm
  

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Hero

Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:24 pm
Posts: 1334
Interesting, I was not shooting to over power the class but to add some kick to what I see as an under-powered class that needs a bit of a boost. The bonding with the user is something that every post about the class is most requested. Ageless has no real game effect in the long run. It just adds a cool ability to the class that makes it unique. Over time I hope to tweak this concept so the feedback is most welcome, thank you!


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:37 pm
  

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Hero

Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:11 pm
Posts: 1018
Yes, I agree that Enchanted Objects is woefully underpowered when it comes to even the other Mystic sub-categories. Like you I want to boost their power to a degree... and have been experimenting with various ideas.

I tried limiting the extra abilities to just the Other Power table, but even at regular intervals (3rd, 6th, 9th and 12th levels), the abilities provided, even though more numerous never really matched what the other mystic sub-categories could achieve at 1st level. With the additional powers and abilities, spaced across the level advancement of the character, these heroes would become powerful, but closer to their maximum levels.

At the low initial game levels (levels 1 - 5), they remain underpowered compared to Weapons and Mystic Study/Bestowed. The would have only 3 minor powers, 1 major power, a half-dozen or so spells or some combination there of... which when compared to all that the other sub-categories of Mystic Heroes is fairly weak... even when you add in 1 power from the Additional Abilities table.

At the mid level range (levels 6 through 10), the additional unlocking of new spells or power or combination there of, will tend to put them on par with the amount of abilities that other characters (even those of other categories) are likely to have... even with the minor additions from the Additional powers table. This will be the range where most players will get to and remain for some time... often taking years of actual gaming to get beyond.

At the highest levels (level 11 - 15), this last unlocking of power will give these characters a much wider array of abilities than many other heroes (save for other progressive characters like Mystic Study, Psychic, and some Mutants) and may even approach the power level of weaker Mega Heroes, but then the types of opponents they (and other characters at this level of play) will be significantly tougher too. One also has to remember that getting to this level of power will take years of regular gaming to achieve in most cases... and the character will merely be a power house among other power house characters (especially tech based characters who will likely upgrade to more powerful weapons and equipment).

Lastly, one also has to take into account the major weaknesses of Enchanted objects.

The first major weakness is the frozen power level of the object. No matter how experience the character, their powers, spells and abilities will be forever frozen at a specific level of power (4th level at least, 7th level at best). At lower levels, this means that they are able to use a higher level of power than other heroes of their level, but at the higher levels of play, they will be significantly weaker than other heroes too. Yes, they may have up to 9 Minor Super abilities at 13th level, but all of those abilities will (at best) be operating at a level of power equal to half the character's actual level. For some powers, like Extraordinary Attributes, this means little, but for things like Energy Expulsion powers, the character would only be doing a maximum of 9d6 damage rather than 15d6 (at 13th level)… roughly 1/3rd less damage than an equal level hero with the same power.

The next major drawback is that even with all the new abilities, the amount of mystic energy the object has remains the same at level 15 as it was at level 1. Yes, they can use that energy on the new abilities and spells, but that just means they will burn through it faster. Each super ability requires 15 PPE to activate/use (remains active for 24 hours before it fades unless dispelled/deactivated sooner)… thus, activating 9 minor powers would cost 135 PPE... a significant portion of such a device's power (110 to 310 PPE in these objects... average would be 160 PPE). True, it only take the device 24 hour to recharge its reserves, but if the hero needs to depower before that energy is recharged, he may not have enough power left in the object to power up again (at least not to full power).

The last major weakness of this power category is that the user is dependent on the object for power... without the object, he has no power. While the powers they have activated will not immediately fade if the object is dropped, he will not be able to activate or cast any more powers/spells until he recovers the object... and the powers/spells already active will fade once their duration ends. More importantly though, anyone who gets a hold of the object could (in theory) also activate the powers of the object (subject to their own level of experience in using it and the remaining mystic energy in the device). This can lead to a lot of interesting situations where a character meets someone who owned it previously and may know how to use it better than they do (having unlocked greater secrets of the object that the player many not have known were available). Imagine two characters (one a PC and the other an NPC) who have both owned the object and unlocked its full powers (both are 13th level) and have both managed to activate the object's powers (9 minor powers; with the object having enough energy to activate all the powers twice)… and now these characters are having an epic brawl to see who deserves to be the sole owner of the object.

While it may seem that going the route I proposed would create an incredibly powerful character, that level of power isn't as great as it initially appears... at least it hasn't in the playtests I have run with such PCs at various levels of power when compared to other characters of equal level. The inherent limitations, plus the gradual unlocking of abilities, keeps these Enchanted Objects from becoming overpowered when compared to heroes from other categories of equivalent power and experience. Even the Mystic Study character who learns and finds additional spells as they gain experience (even when limited to just the spells they gain at new levels of experience) remains fairly competitive to such an object.

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Last edited by Razorwing on Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:07 pm
  

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Hero

Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:24 pm
Posts: 1334
I really think the whole book needs to be updated, it is 14 years old. Many categories are under powered or just make no sense. It would be interesting to see how we could rework the category (class). Maybe the best route would be to junk the education level charts and offer OCCs instead?


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:47 am
  

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Hero

Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:11 pm
Posts: 1018
OCCs in most other games are a result of the job the character learned for... something that doesn't fit well with how Super Heroes can come from any profession, background and education level. What profession would you say is best for a Mutant? What if a player wants to play a mutant character but doesn't want to be of that profession... can he be something else? Comics say yes, but OCCs would say no.

With the current system, you can have a Hero that comes from a wide array of educational level backgrounds... and even two characters with similar powers will not have similar skills or professions. This helps to flesh out the kind of character they are. A street schooled character who happens to come into possession of an Enchanted Object is likely to use it in very different ways than its last owner who may have had a Doctorate in Archaeology and found the object while excavating an ancient tomb. Both would have the same powers, but their education levels would be vastly different, resulting in very different characters (and we see this played out with the Hero known as Blue Beetle... where two very different people gained the powers of a mystic scarab {actually an alien device} and while both became heroes, they were not the same).

Meanwhile, if we go the OCC route, then the characters will become more or less copies of each other. There really is little difference between Cyber-Knights... they all receive the same level of training and more or less gain the same skills and abilities. The only thing that really distinguishes one from another is their level and race. Other than that, they are all the same.

Hero Power Categories can't be like that... they need to embody a wide range of possibilities... from the street rat that has a natural talent for spellcasting (Mystic Study) to the dedicated wizard who spent decades honing his skill to channel those same magics. From the Archaeologist who unearths a mystic weapon during their first excavation to the computer programmer who foolishly accepted such a weapon from a curio shop owner who couldn't afford the usual currency exchange for the programmer's help with their laptop. From the mutant who gained their power through a fluke of genetics to the rescue worker that was exposed to some mutagen while evacuating people from a crash site.

Simply put, Hero Power Categories can never operate in the same way that OCCs do in other games... because the possibilities for how people gain their powers rarely has anything to do with their level of education or their profession... and OCCs most often give only one means for a character to gain their powers, skills and equipment.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:10 am
  

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Hero

Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:24 pm
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I think you missed what I was trying to say. OCCs would be things like Street Rat, Scientist, Emergency Services Worker, Lab Rat, etc. So not the same OCCs you see in rifts. Maybe OCCs is not the way to go. Maybe skill programs is the way to go, what do you think?


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:58 pm
  

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Hero

Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:11 pm
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Skill programs is what we have... each education level provides a number of Skill Programs the character can choose from... enough to create any kind of professional for that level of Education (one doesn't expect to see a High School graduate with the same number of skills or expertise in those skills as a Doctorate).

By decoupling the skill selection from the power categories (for the most part... there are a few exceptions), Palladium has allowed players to create nearly any kind of hero with any level of education to make unique and original characters that few other games can match.

Why fix a system that isn't broken with one that will ultimately be far more limiting?

Besides... I think we are ultimately straying from the primary subject of this thread... bringing the Enchanted Object category up to a power level that is roughly equivalent to the other categories.

There is another way to do so I believe... namely increasing the number of abilities that the Objects grant their users... something closer to what other power categories receive. Yes, we can still have a balance between Super Powers and spells... but increase the overall number of options of these and bring them up to a rough equivalent the other categories have... maybe even a little higher given the drawbacks this power category inherently possesses (fixed power level, limited power supply, useable by whomever holds the object).

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There are three types of people in the world; those who can count and those who can't.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:13 pm
  

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Megaversal® Ambassador

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Interesting Approach over all. I like it. I would change a few things but it is new and interesting. When you level up, you should gain perks from the object as you master it. It would have to be monitored so you don't Mega hero in a game where that is not wanted though.
Well done!

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:51 am
  

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Demon Lord Extraordinaire

Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 3:28 pm
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Comment: You probably think this comment is about you, don't you?
boxee wrote:
I really think the whole book needs to be updated, it is 14 years old. Many categories are under powered or just make no sense. It would be interesting to see how we could rework the category (class). Maybe the best route would be to junk the education level charts and offer OCCs instead?


That's the worst thing that could happen. The OCC system sucks taun-taun balls. Personally I'd rather see a point-based system for selecting skills. That would help us make characters more toward our liking than forcing a "cookie-cutter with sprinkles" system upon us.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:08 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Enchanted Object needs to get the same power boost as Enchanted Weapon.
That's how you get it reworked to be competitive.

One way I do this in my games is that I use the "magic girl logic". Specifically I allow for "frills of justice" and grant power ups. Thus you gain additional spells/minor powers as you gain familiarity with your item/become a true champion/face a moment of crisis/whatever.

Another way I do this is that I tend to allow for a more liberal power set. Specifically I grant every Enchanted Object Either Dimensional Pocket or Instant Weapon and I grant them all Instant Wardrobe.
I tend to grant a few minor spells as well.

Thus Enchanted Objects tend to be "handy" as oposed to Enchanted Weapons which tend to be "Grand"

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The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:12 am
  

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Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 2:16 pm
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Comment: 44 years in denver, but now in grand rapids.
I'm kinda the opposite of Beast on this one. Point buy power building is my idea of the worst possible way of doing it.

I like that magic weapons and objects are of a lower power level simply because they can be moved from one character to another or taken from opponents and added to one's own arsenal. Over the course of play theres no reason why a character couldnt end up bristling with enchanted loot. Any power that can be transferred from one person to another seems to be written to be lowered and limited on purpose. There is a method to the madness.


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