Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

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Razorwing
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Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Razorwing »

Been going through various healing powers recently and I noticed that while the Super Regeneration (major power, PU3) says it is basically a cosmic version of the Healing Factor (minor power, HU core book), the actual description seems... a little underwhelming.

Don't get me wrong, I can see where Super Regeneration provides a more potent self-healing (heals SDC/HP per melee round, regenerate limbs and can even heal internal organs... especially the heart and brain)... but this just doesn't seem to meet the hype of the initial description of the power (never gets sick... but provides no bonus vs. disease; rarely tires and always has energy but doesn't get a bonus to PE).

Meanwhile the Healing Factor minor power (HU core), despite the lesser healing powers, also provides superior bonuses to PE, HP, SDC, save vs. coma/death, magic, poisons, toxins and even psionics. To top it off... having a mere Healing Factor seems to suggest that the character NEVER fatigues (while someone with Super Regeneration does, even if it is rare).

So how does Super Regeneration qualify as a "cosmic" version of Healing Factor if all it provides is a superior healing yet no actual bonuses? Even looking at the other Healing Powers available and they seem to offer more than Super Regeneration does... (except for the actual healing). Healing Power (minor; PU1) gives a bonus to PE, save vs. poison/toxins, save vs. non-lethal drugs/disease and save vis coma/death (though it does temporarily reduce one's PE and HP per healing touch performed). Divine Healing (major, PU1) seems more like a "cosmic" healing factor than Super Regeneration... though not quite at the speed that the latter provides, but one can also regenerate limbs, have an extended lifespan, enter a healing trance, heal others, even reanimate/restore the recently dead... as well as provide bonuses to HP (per level), SDC, MA and PE, save vs. coma/death, save vs. poison/toxins/drugs and save vs. disease. Regeneration Ultima (Major, PU1) comes close to the level of regeneration that Super Regeneration provides... including the regeneration of lost limbs, but also allows the character to come back from actual death a few times and provides the character with immunity to disease, bonuses to save vs. poison, save vs. drugs and reduces the penalties and duration one suffers from such things.

Compared to all these other healing powers... Super Regeneration doesn't really stack well. While it shouldn't be overall superior to the others (well the other Major healing powers) it should at least be comparable... which it doesn't seem to be... unless there has been errata for it that I can't find (if there is can someone please link it). It should at least provide some comparable bonuses along similar lines as Healing Factor and Divine Healing do.

With this in mind (and until there is a link to errata that points to different bonuses), I have some ideas on bonuses that could be applied to this power that should make it more comparable to the other major healing powers:

1) 3d6 HP per level (instead of the 1d6)
2) +10 SDC per level
3) +2d6 to PE
4) Immune to disease
5) +30% to save vs. coma/death
6) +4 vs. poison/toxin/drugs and Magic
7) Ages at 1/2 the normal rate (can live to about 170 years)

While these may seem a little higher than the other Major healing powers, those powers do have abilities that Super Regeneration doesn't (healing others, reviving the dead and even regenerating from death) which I believe compensates for the slightly higher bonuses here and this power's fairly narrow focus (regenerating the character at a truly phenomenal rate). Still, I am sure there will be some who feel that these may be too high (or not high enough to make it a viable choice when presented with the others as alternatives)... and I am glad to discuss such... at least until someone can point to some errata that suggests different bonuses.
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Glistam »

Super Regeneration came from Rifter 11, that's a good place to look to see what sort of bonuses were intended for it. By my read of the power though, there's only 3 ways to permanently kill the character who has this power: Decapitation, complete destruction of the brain (more than 90%), or being atomized/blown to bits. Anything else, no matter how negative the character gets in H.P., they will eventually recover from. To me that justifies the power as-is, and if I want exra bonuses with it I'd just combine it with Healing Factor.
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Shadowknight »

I think the bonus you listed are way too high, I would reduce by 30% if not 50%. Except for the Immunity to Disease & enhance lifespanwhich are dead on target if not a little low IMO.
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Reagren Wright »

Razorwing wrote:Been going through various healing powers recently and I noticed that while the Super Regeneration (major power, PU3) says it is basically a cosmic version of the Healing Factor (minor power, HU core book), the actual description seems... a little underwhelming.

Don't get me wrong, I can see where Super Regeneration provides a more potent self-healing (heals SDC/HP per melee round, regenerate limbs and can even heal internal organs... especially the heart and brain)... but this just doesn't seem to meet the hype of the initial description of the power (never gets sick... but provides no bonus vs. disease; rarely tires and always has energy but doesn't get a bonus to PE).

Meanwhile the Healing Factor minor power (HU core), despite the lesser healing powers, also provides superior bonuses to PE, HP, SDC, save vs. coma/death, magic, poisons, toxins and even psionics. To top it off... having a mere Healing Factor seems to suggest that the character NEVER fatigues (while someone with Super Regeneration does, even if it is rare).

So how does Super Regeneration qualify as a "cosmic" version of Healing Factor if all it provides is a superior healing yet no actual bonuses? Even looking at the other Healing Powers available and they seem to offer more than Super Regeneration does... (except for the actual healing). Healing Power (minor; PU1) gives a bonus to PE, save vs. poison/toxins, save vs. non-lethal drugs/disease and save vis coma/death (though it does temporarily reduce one's PE and HP per healing touch performed). Divine Healing (major, PU1) seems more like a "cosmic" healing factor than Super Regeneration... though not quite at the speed that the latter provides, but one can also regenerate limbs, have an extended lifespan, enter a healing trance, heal others, even reanimate/restore the recently dead... as well as provide bonuses to HP (per level), SDC, MA and PE, save vs. coma/death, save vs. poison/toxins/drugs and save vs. disease. Regeneration Ultima (Major, PU1) comes close to the level of regeneration that Super Regeneration provides... including the regeneration of lost limbs, but also allows the character to come back from actual death a few times and provides the character with immunity to disease, bonuses to save vs. poison, save vs. drugs and reduces the penalties and duration one suffers from such things.

Compared to all these other healing powers... Super Regeneration doesn't really stack well. While it shouldn't be overall superior to the others (well the other Major healing powers) it should at least be comparable... which it doesn't seem to be... unless there has been errata for it that I can't find (if there is can someone please link it). It should at least provide some comparable bonuses along similar lines as Healing Factor and Divine Healing do.

With this in mind (and until there is a link to errata that points to different bonuses), I have some ideas on bonuses that could be applied to this power that should make it more comparable to the other major healing powers:

1) 3d6 HP per level (instead of the 1d6)
2) +10 SDC per level
3) +2d6 to PE
4) Immune to disease
5) +30% to save vs. coma/death
6) +4 vs. poison/toxin/drugs and Magic
7) Ages at 1/2 the normal rate (can live to about 170 years)

While these may seem a little higher than the other Major healing powers, those powers do have abilities that Super Regeneration doesn't (healing others, reviving the dead and even regenerating from death) which I believe compensates for the slightly higher bonuses here and this power's fairly narrow focus (regenerating the character at a truly phenomenal rate). Still, I am sure there will be some who feel that these may be too high (or not high enough to make it a viable choice when presented with the others as alternatives)... and I am glad to discuss such... at least until someone can point to some errata that suggests different bonuses.


10 S.D.C. per level? So a 10th level guy heals 100 S.D.C. per melee round! A Great Horn
Dragon heals 1D4x10, Major Earth Elemental 2D6x10, Alien Intelligence 1D6x10 every minute.
That is way beyond to powerful for the HU universe. 3d6 HP per level? The word cosmic in the
description is over exaggerated. This is not a cosmic power. What would be the point of
fighting a guy who heals that easily? Nothing in the HU universe is so deliberately over
powerful. Even Disintegration only does 3D6 to Hit Point with a chance it effecting the user. It's
always be about balance. Just like the special effects don't make the movie, the acting is what
catches your attention. Same about role playing.
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Razorwing »

So you honestly think that healing 2-12 SDC/HP every melee round without any additional bonuses is enough incentive for a player to choose this power over the other Healing Powers when given the choice.

Healing Factor: heal SDC every 10 minutes, heal HP every 15 minutes, Regenerate HP/SDC instantly twice per day, Never Fatigue, resistant to fire, cold, drugs, toxins and poison, and bonuses to PE, HP, SDC, Coma/Death, Magic, Poison/Toxins and Psionics.

Healing Power: Heal damage to others instantly with a touch (though suffers PE and HP loss) and receives a bonus to save vs. poison, drugs, death/coma and receives a PE bonus too.

Divine Healing: heals SDC every 10 minutes and HP every 20 minutes (worse than Healing Factor above), Regenerate HP/SDC instantly three times per day (better than Healing factor above), Regenerate Limbs, Longevity, Healing trance (to increase rate of healing dramatically), Heal others (though costs SDC/HP), Reanimate and Restore the recently dead, and gets bonuses to HP (increases the amount per level), SDC, MA, PE, Coma/Death, Poison/Toxin and disease.

Regeneration Ultima: Heals per melee round (doubled when resting), Regenerate limbs, Regenerate from actual death, and bonuses vs. poison and drugs (with a reduction in severity and duration as well).

Super Regeneration: heals per melee round, regenerate limbs/organs.

When given all of these choices... which power are you likely to take? Chances are that Super Regeneration, with it's utter lack of any bonuses other than very fast healing... will be last (or next to last) on one's list (healing power is likely to be last unless one wants to heal others).

Reagren Wright wrote:10 S.D.C. per level? So a 10th level guy heals 100 S.D.C. per melee round! A Great Horn
Dragon heals 1D4x10, Major Earth Elemental 2D6x10, Alien Intelligence 1D6x10 every minute.
That is way beyond to powerful for the HU universe. 3d6 HP per level? The word cosmic in the
description is over exaggerated. This is not a cosmic power. What would be the point of
fighting a guy who heals that easily? Nothing in the HU universe is so deliberately over
powerful. Even Disintegration only does 3D6 to Hit Point with a chance it effecting the user. It's
always be about balance. Just like the special effects don't make the movie, the acting is what
catches your attention. Same about role playing.


Not exactly... that is a bonus to the character's SDC total... not how much he heals per melee round (what made you think it was per melee round?). Healing Factor and Divine Healing offer a flat bonus to SDC... so I thought a more progressive bonus would be an interesting change... one that initially starts out smaller than that provided by the minor power, but grows to be even larger than that given by the Major Power (which has other abilities this power doesn't). The same with receiving 3d6 HP per level (rather than 1d6)... not how much they heal but rather for their total... and again because Super Regeneration doesn't get the additional abilities that Divine Healing gets (it strictly heals the character and only the character... no raising the dead... or even returning from the dead).

Simply put... when you look at what all the other powers give... and compare that to what Super Regeneration does... it kind of falls very flat. Hell... even a Minor Power (which is supposed to be a lesser version of this) does something this doesn't... namely makes the character immune to fatigue (could run flat out without the need to rest... EVER). Does healing every melee round and regenerating limbs and organs (which the other two Major healing powers also provide) really compare to any of these without additional bonuses?
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Razorwing »

Shadowknight wrote:I think the bonus you listed are way too high, I would reduce by 30% if not 50%. Except for the Immunity to Disease & enhance lifespanwhich are dead on target if not a little low IMO.


Actually, I think that was the basis for Regeneration Ultima rather than Super Regeneration.
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Razorwing »

Shadowknight wrote:I think the bonus you listed are way too high, I would reduce by 30% if not 50%. Except for the Immunity to Disease & enhance lifespanwhich are dead on target if not a little low IMO.


Please tell me you didn't make the same mistake as Reagren Wright and think these bonuses (the HP and SDC) were a new rate of healing. They are bonuses to the character. The character still heals at the rate the power provides... that didn't change. The HP and SDC bonus was meant to be to the character... gets 3d6 instead of the usual 1d6 per level and +10 SDC per level instead of a flat rate once.
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Cr'Imson »

Razorwing wrote:When given all of these choices... which power are you likely to take? Chances are that Super Regeneration, with it's utter lack of any bonuses other than very fast healing... will be last (or next to last) on one's list (healing power is likely to be last unless one wants to heal others).

You misrepresent the bonuses provided by Super Regeneration, and fail to note that it is, effectively, a toned down version of the Mega-Super Power of Immortality. The increased longevity and physical bonuses you would like to add are already defined by another power, and represent a divide in established levels of an individual Super Heroes' power.
Additional physical bonuses should come from other Super Powers. Most Super Powers, by themselves, will be a bit lacking. However, the trade off for Super Regeneration is the increased longevity, physical bonuses and Achilles' Heal (and a specific Note attached to such) of Immortality, for the Immortal-like healing powers and the ability to combine them with other Super Powers. So, in short, there is no need to add cheese-sauce to this lollipop.


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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Razorwing »

It isn't a toned down version of the Immortality Mega Power.

The only thing in common is the high rate of regeneration (and even then the rate of Super Regeneration is superior). Super Regeneration doesn't keep the person alive beyond a normal lifespan... and will not return a character back from the dead (which the Immortal Mega Power can theoretically can do). Furthermore, A character with Super Regeneration will still die when reduced to below -PE HP (at which point it is presumed that there has been enough damage to the brain/heart that even the phenomenal regeneration rate won't save him... as the power doesn't explicitly state that he can go any lower, like the Immortal Mega Power does). The character doesn't even get a bonus to save vs. Coma/Death to represent the ease a character with such a high rate of regeneration should have in recovering from such near death situations (something that ALL other healing powers provide).

Simply put... all Super Regeneration provides is a very fast rate of healing... nothing more. Even the Minor power of Healing Factor adds bonuses to HP, SDC, PE, Coma/Death, Poison, Magic and Psionics. You say that I am short changing what Super Regeneration provides when the truth is that it provides very little that would make it an attractive power for players. Sure... you heal faster than the character that merely took Healing Factor... but with everything else being equal, he will have a higher PE than you, more HP and SDC, better saves than you... and should you both be knocked below 0 HP, he would not only be able to go further below 0 than you, anyone trying to revive him would have an easier chance of doing so... but hey... at least you heal faster than him.

When the minor version of a Major power is arguably better than it... then you know that the Major power is seriously underpowered.
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Glistam »

Razorwing wrote:Furthermore, A character with Super Regeneration will still die when reduced to below -PE HP (at which point it is presumed that there has been enough damage to the brain/heart that even the phenomenal regeneration rate won't save him... as the power doesn't explicitly state that he can go any lower, like the Immortal Mega Power does).

I disagree. Super Regeneration specifically calls out that decapatation, being blown to bits, atomization or complete destruction of brain or heart are the only ways to prevent Super Regeneration. Unless one of those happens the power continues to restore H.P. every round. Once you go below 0 H.P. You will fall unconscious as per normal, but once you reach -P.E. in H.P. you have only taken "Massive Injury/Severe Trauma". You do not die, though it seems perfectly reasonable that you will seem dead at that point. The healing power is weakened as it struggles to cope with this massive trauma but if left alone, the character will make a complete recovery.

Because Super Regeneration is a major power this is how I've chosen to interpret it. It's worked out well in my games.
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Razorwing »

Sorry... but as written, a character dies when they reach -PE HP. NOTHING in the description of Super Regeneration says otherwise, so by the rules, a even a character with this power will die when he gets that low. Of course getting him that low is going to be very difficult (since he is healing damage rather than loosing blood per blood loss), requiring nearly constant damage from others to keep him down once there.

Furthermore, by the rules, one only wakes up from the Coma of being knocked out due to 0 HP or less if one makes a save vs. coma death (2 out of 3 rolls)... which characters with Super Regeneration do not get a bonus for. So unless they have a high enough PE to have their own bonus... they aren't waking up in the middle of a fight (at least not by the rules as written)... even if their HP return to positive value (once the fighting ends, I would let them wake up, but again, that isn't in the rules).

Those conditions for death appear to be meant for called shots and such which may or may not completely eliminate a character's HP or SDC. Cutting through a neck will be difficult, but likely isn't going to require depleting a character of all their HP/SDC. Even a grenade isn't likely to deplete a character of all their HP/SDC, but it can blow a person to bits (and if the character with this power jumped on the grenade to save his friends... well there is a chance he may have just sacrificed his life even though he has Super Regeneration)... as for atomization and such... well... those tend to be automatic death whether you have this power or not (and this just reinforces that). None of these methods are standard (and quite frankly, rarely done), one has to make the assumption that reducing a character below -PE HP is enough damage to permanently kill them due to massive brain/heart trauma... especially since the power doesn't state that they can survive anything more than that.

Sorry... but we have to go with the Rules as Written here... and since the Power doesn't specify otherwise, -PE HP is still character death for Super Regeneration.
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Razorwing »

Going over the bonuses I initially suggested and after hearing some of the comments, I decided to clarify both (and rework the bonuses a little)

1) The rate of Regeneration doesn't change.
2) Immune to Disease (actually found this in the bonuses provided... not sure how I missed it before; even I can admit when I make a mistake).
3) 2d6 to base HP per level (rather than the normal 1d6 per level; this is what Divine Healing adds so it shouldn't be an unbalanced addition considering the other abilities it has that Super Regeneration doesn't) and should be clear that this isn't the regeneration level.
4) +2d4x10 to base SDC (slightly better than that provided by other Major Healing powers, given the focus of this power strictly on healing the character... and does not include healing others or bringing him back from the dead... massive amounts of damage, yes... but not actually dead).
5) +3d4 to PE and fatigues at 1/10th the normal rate (50% better than the bonus given to Healing Factor... which makes sense as this is supposed to be a more powerful version of that power).
6) +30% vs. Coma/Death (someone with this level of regeneration should be easy to revive from coma, more so than with H.F. or D.H.).
7) +4 to save vs. Poison/Toxins/Drugs (and only do 1/10th damage and duration) and vs. Magic (not including Psionics as this power focuses on the body... not so much the mind even though it regenerates the brain).
8) Can go down to -PEx3 HP below zero before the trauma to Brain and Heart is severe enough to overwhelm the rate of regeneration (note that once below -PE HP, the body will automatically switch to prioritizing these two organs for regeneration, reducing the rate of regeneration to the rest of the body by half as it focuses on these organs... which will take 1d6x10 minutes to accomplish... during which time the character will remain in a coma even if the rest of the body is brought back to 1 HP or higher from medical treatment or his own regeneration rate. Additionally, this level of regenerative focus will leave him weak for 1d6+1 hours afterwards, reducing speed, attacks, combat bonuses and Skill performance by half... and regeneration remains at half rate for this time (due to the strain of healing so quickly). This level of damage is likely to make the character forget the exact cause of such traumatic injury (the character doesn't actually die so I won't use the term "cause of death") and possibly the previous 4d6 hours prior to the near death experience (GM's call, though the closer to -PEx3 below 0 HP, the more likely it is).

I decided that the Longevity from healing would be a perk that Divine Healing gets rather than this power... though it does seem logical Unlike Healing Factor (and other healing powers), this character isn't resistant to Heat/Cold and will take full damage from both sources (and like the Longevity this to let them keep a perk that may sway a player to chose those powers over this one). I think these are a little more balanced and easier to understand (plus clarifies some of Super Regenerations limitations).
Last edited by Razorwing on Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Cr'Imson »

Razorwing wrote:It isn't a toned down version of the Immortality Mega Power.

The only thing in common is the high rate of regeneration (and even then the rate of Super Regeneration is superior)...

Simply put... all Super Regeneration provides is a very fast rate of healing... nothing more...

Cr'Imson wrote:You misrepresent the bonuses provided by Super Regeneration,

Constantly.

When viewed as,
Cr'Imson wrote:... it (Super Regeneration) is, effectively, a toned down version of the Mega-Super Power of Immortality. ...increased longevity and physical bonuses ... are already defined by another power, and represent a divide in established levels of an individual Super Heroes' power.
Additional physical bonuses should come from other Super Powers. Most Super Powers, by themselves, will be a bit lacking. However, the trade off for Super Regeneration is the increased longevity, physical bonuses and Achilles' Heal (and a specific Note attached to such) of Immortality, for the Immortal-like healing powers and the ability to combine them with other Super Powers.

And
Glistam wrote:Super Regeneration specifically calls out that decapitation, being blown to bits, atomization or complete destruction of brain or heart are the only ways to prevent Super Regeneration. Unless one of those happens the power continues to restore H.P. every round. Once you go below 0 H.P. You will fall unconscious as per normal, but once you reach -P.E. in H.P. you have only taken "Massive Injury/Severe Trauma". You do not die, though it seems perfectly reasonable that you will seem dead at that point. The healing power is weakened as it struggles to cope with this massive trauma but if left alone, the character will make a complete recovery.

Along with a fair assessment of Super Regeneration's bonuses, in relation to the Mega-Super Power of Immortality, it is not as weak as you would have people think.
Razorwing wrote:Sorry... but as written,

The bonuses provided by Super Regeneration are already spelled out. Where is the rule that says that the ability to heal, from any Super Power, must include bonuses to X outside of said ability to heal?



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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Razorwing »

If it is going to change the basic rules that the game is played by... then YES, it does have to be spelled out in the power's description... just like every other power does..

Since the power as written doesn't say that the character can go past -PE below zero HP and live... he can't. Since it doesn't say he can remain functioning when below zero HP... he can't. Since the power doesn't give a bonus to save vs. coma (and unless he has a high enough PE to provide one) he will not wake up from being reduced to zero or below HP without medical aid... at least not during a fight, even if his healing factor would bring him up to 1 HP above zero. That is how the rules are written... and while you may do things differently in your games, for the purpose of this discussion, we can only use what is actually written.

Powers affect the rules... and unless a power spells out how they do so, one has to default to the established rules. All this power does as written is allow the character to heal very fast (every melee round). It doesn't provide him with anything more than that (well, it does state that his immune to disease so that is added). However, since there are no real rules for decapitation (other than called shots) or being blown to bits (other than common sense) and few powers or weapons that can atomize a person... those conditions for death are relatively meaningless. Additionally, since the power doesn't alter the normal rules in regards to death in its description, like what is provided for with Immortality (both the Major and Mega versions increase how far below zero HP the character can go and still recover)... one has to assume that there is no special conditions for one with Super Regeneration. Since he doesn't get a bonus to PE, he will have the same tolerance as a normal person with all other things being equal.

This means that even with Super Regeneration, as currently written, if the character only has a PE of 9 (average), and enough damage is done to him to reduce him to -10 HP, not even his phenomenal rate of healing will save him... simply because the power which would alter the base rules doesn't state any changes. One can not infer there are changes to the core rules because of a power unless the power states them.

Normal healing rules apply until a power states otherwise. Normal defenses apply (armor and such) unless a power states other. One can't shoot energy blasts from his hands unless a power says he can. Thus it is implicit in the description of powers that they change the rules the characters operate by to the degree they specify.

While you are right, there is nothing that says Super Regeneration HAS to provide additional bonuses... as it is currently written, the Minor power of Healing Factor can arguably be said to be more powerful... if not in actual healing, then with the additional bonuses it provides. If Super Regeneration is supposed to be a more powerful version of Healing Factor, then it should provide bonuses equivalent to its status as a Major Power. I've presented both powers to people who know nothing of the game (presenting only what they provide a character... and not telling them beforehand which is a major/minor power)... and all unanimously have agreed that Healing Factor was superior because of the bonuses in addition to healing. If people with no foreknowledge of this game think that a minor power is more powerful than the equivalent major power... then the major power is too weak.

If a Minor Flight power allowed one to go faster than a Major Flight power with both characters being equivalent levels... you would say that the Major power is weak... unless it provided additional abilities and/or bonuses that the Minor version doesn't to compensate for that deficiency. We see this with Divine Healing... where the actual healing is weaker than that provided by Healing Factor... but Divine Healing also gives other abilities and bonuses (some superior to that provided by Healing Factor) to compensate for this weaker healing... allowing it to keep its Major Power status. While Super Regeneration provides a substantially better healing, the lack of other bonuses (or even a clarification on how to treat the massive amount of damage the character can take and recover from) doesn't balance it out when compared to the minor power it is supposed to be a "cosmic" version of... let alone the other Major healing powers (Divine Healing and Regeneration Ultima). Balance may not mean exactly equal to... but it does mean roughly equivalent to... and Major powers should generally be seen (even by those without any knowledge of the game) as better than a minor power equivalent.

That is why I modified the additional bonuses I initially wrote... bringing them slightly closer to what one would expect a superior version of Healing Factor to provide... and even modifying how damage and potential death will interact with this power (namely allowing characters with this power to go below the normal allowed limit below zero HP... to represent the increased damage the character can recover from).
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Cr'Imson »

Razorwing wrote:... Powers affect the rules... and unless a power spells out how they do so, one has to default to the established rules. ...

See HU-2E, pg. 182, under Death is possible - Innate Vulnerabilities for an example of such established rules.



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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Razorwing »

I think you are confusing these additional ways to kill an immortal character as the ONLY ways to kill an immortal (through the Mega Power). This simply isn't true.

An immortal (with the Mega Power) can still be killed through massive amounts of damage that push him below -300 HP. Any damage below zero HP will look particularly gruesome... and to most people, when he finally collapses to heal, the character will appear to be dead... but in truth he isn't. However, once below -300, the damage dealt to an immortal is too great for even their regenerative powers to heal and they die like anyone else. This is merely the normal death through trauma rules as presented in the core book, modified by this Mega Power.

However, given their regenerative powers, dealing enough damage to an immortal (mega) character quickly enough to put them that far below zero is not going to be easy... thus the power has additional conditions that can lead to actual death. These methods may be easier to meet than the -300 HP... and tend to bypass the regenerative powers of the character. That doesn't mean these are the ONLY ways such characters can be killed... merely that they are arguably easier to accomplish than slugging it out.

The same with Super Regeneration... the rate of healing may be too much to reduce the character far enough below zero to normally kill the character through bodily trauma... so additional means of killing such characters were introduced. These methods are merely ALTERATIVES... it is still possible to do massive amounts of damage to overwhelm the character's regeneration rate... but these other methods may be easier. Unfortunately, Super Regeneration doesn't specifically modify the normal rules for such bodily trauma... which means that such characters can only go to -PE below zero HP before their regeneration is overwhelmed to the point that it can no longer heal such a character.

No where in either Immortality (mega) or Super Regeneration descriptions does it say that the normal rules of determining character death are ignored... merely modified in the case of Immortality (mega)... thus this rule is still very much in play. At least when going with the Rules As Written. Ignoring this rule in regards to these powers is a house rule.

This is why Regeneration Ultima is still a desirable power to have... because the character will return even if actually killed in this manner... as it only counts as one of the deaths the character can recover from. True, like the other powers, getting such a character that far below zero may be difficult, but this ability to return from actual death (even if a limited number of times) does compensate for the lower overall bonuses the power provides.
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Cr'Imson »

Razorwing wrote:... Since the power as written doesn't say that the character can go past -PE below zero HP and live... he can't. Since it doesn't say he can remain functioning when below zero HP... he can't. Since the power doesn't give a bonus to save vs. coma (and unless he has a high enough PE to provide one) he will not wake up from being reduced to zero or below HP without medical aid... at least not during a fight, even if his healing factor would bring him up to 1 HP above zero. ...

Granted.
Razorwing wrote:... All this power does as written is allow the character to heal very fast (every melee round). It doesn't provide him with anything more than that (well, it does state that his immune to disease so that is added). However, since there are no real rules for decapitation (other than called shots) or being blown to bits (other than common sense) and few powers or weapons that can atomize a person... those conditions for death are relatively meaningless. Additionally, since the power doesn't alter the normal rules in regards to death in its description, like what is provided for with Immortality (both the Major and Mega versions increase how far below zero HP the character can go and still recover)... one has to assume that there is no special conditions for one with Super Regeneration. Since he doesn't get a bonus to PE, he will have the same tolerance as a normal person with all other things being equal.

Yes, a close look at the Major Super Power of Immortality would also help to see how the abilities from the Mega-Super Power of Immortality break down. Especially physical bonuses, longevity and healing/regeneration abilities.

But remember...
Razorwing wrote:... That is how the rules are written... and while you may do things differently in your games, for the purpose of this discussion, we can only use what is actually written. ...



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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Glistam »

If we're only using what's actually written in the books then why are we talking about giving bonuses to Super Regeneration? By the book that power gets no bonuses, only the healing abilities. If you want a healing power with bonuses use the inferior Healing Factor power or the original version of the Super Regeneration power as was written up in Rifter 11.
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Nightmask »

When a power says 'the only way to truly kill someone with this power is X' then X is the only way to kill them, period. It's not X along with Y. So when those Regeneration powers like Super-Regeneration and the Immortality Mega-Power say 'can only be killed by this kind of damage' then that's it, no amount of HP damage matters unless it also meets X. It's not that PLUS whatever the normal damage point that leads to death is, that renders the original 'only killed by X' meaningless since now it's not X it's X on top of the original way.
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Razorwing »

Nightmask wrote:When a power says 'the only way to truly kill someone with this power is X' then X is the only way to kill them, period. It's not X along with Y. So when those Regeneration powers like Super-Regeneration and the Immortality Mega-Power say 'can only be killed by this kind of damage' then that's it, no amount of HP damage matters unless it also meets X. It's not that PLUS whatever the normal damage point that leads to death is, that renders the original 'only killed by X' meaningless since now it's not X it's X on top of the original way.


That's just it... it doesn't say this is the ONLY way to kill characters with these powers. It says these ways will kill these characters... not that they are the only ways. The Immortality mega power specifies that such characters can recover from damage as severe as -300 HP. Why specify that specific amount if such a character can not die of any damage no matter how far below zero they go? Because, even though it is difficult to do so, one can still kill these characters through massive bodily trauma. As I explained, the additional options for killing such a character will often be easier to accomplish than massive body trauma as one has to deal that much damage faster than it is recovered. Besides... what did you think would happen if a character with this mega power once reduced to -301 or less HP?

The same is true with Super Regeneration. NO WHERE is it actually stated that massive trauma won't kill such characters... merely that you have to destroy more than 90% of the heart and/or brain to do so. These are additional methods to kill the character that circumvent the phenomenal regeneration rate they have without having to constantly pummel them with damage.

As for your coment Cr'Imson... the reason I am proposing additional bonuses is because, as written, Super Regeneration is weak when compared to the minor Healing Factor power... let alone the other Major healing powers. In case you hadn't noticed, in all my arguments, I pointed out just how Super Regeneration is weak as written... to show the need it has for additional bonuses; bonuses that other healing powers tend to have that make them arguably stronger than this one.

With all other factors being equal, a character with Healing Factor will be harder to reduce far enough below zero HP because they get 1) a bonus to SDC (which means they can take more minor injuries before their life is threatened), 2) a bonus to HP (which means that they can take more serious injuries) and 3) have a bonus to PE (meaning they can go further below zero HP) than a character with only Super Regeneration. True, they can't heal as fast... but even then they still get additional bonuses... such as an increased save vs. coma/death (making them easier to revive), increased saves vs, poison, drugs and toxins and even magic and psionics... which can all do damage to a character. Then there is the resistance to cold and heat, reducing damage from such sources by half... which the Super Regeneration character doesn't get.

Simply put... on a point for point basis... Super Regeneration looses out when compared with a minor healing power... let alone the other Major ones. The phenomenal rate of regeneration just isn't enough for it to be selected over the other healing powers that offer a whole lot more than just a high rate of regeneration... including better chances of surviving massive body trauma (being reduced below zero HP).

For a power that is supposed to heal one from such damage... it does a surprisingly poor job of it. Let's put it another way... how easy is it for an opponent to deal enough damage each round to overcome the rate of regeneration these characters have and push them towards PE below zero HP. If we assume a character with average stats... the Super Regeneration character will only have a PE of 9. This likely means that at 1st level he only has 12 HP, and maybe 30 SDC. Now, lets say he is going up against an opponent with a simple Energy Expulsion: Fire power that does 2d6 damage at first level. Assuming that both characters have 4 attacks per melee, the attacker only has to do 4 pts of damage per shot (assuming 4 hits) each melee round to do more damage than Super Regeneration can heal in the same amount of time. With an average of 7 damage per shot, and we'll say an average of 2 hits per melee, that's 14 damage per round (not quite the 4 damage per shot, but still more than the maximum of 12 pts that can be healed every melee)... and an average healing of 7 per round, means that it will take about 8 melee rounds for the attacker to drop the character to below -9 HP... about 2 minutes of combat... and that is a 1st level villain with a minor attack power taking out a hero with Super Regeneration (a major power).

And that is using Super Regeneration as currently written. Doesn't seem quite so powerful now, does it?

Now while the character with Healing Factor may not heal quite as fast, he will start out with a higher PE (13 using average numbers), average HP of 28 (at first level) and 55 SDC (from the bonuses provided by the power; and using the same initial base as before). As before he will be up against an opponent with Energy Expulsion: Fire. With 4 attacks per melee, with an average of 2 hits for an average of 7 damage per hit, the Healing Factor hero will only take an average of 7 damage due to being heat/fire resistant. Additionally, the Healing factor character can instantly regenerate twice per day some damage... for an average of 14 points per regeneration, giving him an additional 28 points of healing. Thus it would take about 18 melee rounds to bring this character down to -PE below zero... 4 and 1/2 minutes... more than twice as long as with Super Regeneration (as written).

That is a Minor Power performing better than a Major power that is supposed to be a more powerful version of it. This is why Super Regeneration, as written, is too weak.
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Cr'Imson »

Razorwing wrote:... With all other factors being equal, a character with Healing Factor ...

Will suck, as will any character with only a single super power when compared to characters with more than one power. Each power is only a small piece of a larger whole, and taken by themselves will always fall short.
Razorwing wrote:... Simply put... on a point for point basis... Super Regeneration ...

Only allows for some healing, regeneration of organs/limbs and some immunities/resistances, but does not take into account the -P.E. in HPs (so death by mass damage should be possible). However, when combined with other powers, like the Major Super Power of Immortality and/or Invulnerability (among other powers that could apply here, including Healing Factor), Super Regeneration is not as weak as you make it out to be and provides the bonuses you are looking for.
Razorwing wrote:... NO WHERE is it actually stated that massive trauma won't kill such characters...

So maybe what is really needed here, instead of a bunch of added bonuses (which would surely be gained through the selection of other powers), is a bit of errata that would include something about -P.E. below HPs, similar to both of the Immortality powers.



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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Razorwing »

Of course Invulnerability will make a person with Super Regeneration stronger... but it doesn't actually make Super Regeneration itself better. What is making the character better is the Invulnerability power. Super Regeneration will still be weak. Additional powers will always make individual characters stronger... but that isn't the point. The point was SPECIFICALY comparing the survivability of Super Regeneration to Healing Factor with all other variables taken out of the equation.

The example above clearly shows that when all other factors are taken out of the equation, Super Regeneration, despite its phenomenal regenerative abilities, fails big time when compared to Healing Factor... a minor power that Super Regeneration is supposed to be a "cosmic"-level form of. This is roughly equivalent of Galactus getting his ass handed to him by Aunt May.

The logical fallacy you are making is thinking that additional powers will improve Super Regeneration. They won't... they will improve the character, but not the specific power. If those same additional powers were given to an identical character save with Healing Factor instead... they will also improve that character's survivability by the same amount. All things being equal save these powers, Healing Factor has a clear advantage over Super Regeneration. Even allowing Super Regeneration to go lower than -PE below zero won't make this as powerful as it should be in comparison... especially when we expand the examples to include the other healing powers. So let's do that and see how all of them compare.

First we will start with the base-line character, to which we will add all the base bonuses (with average rolls for any dice that would be added to these). That means the basic attributes will all be 9s... but in this case the only relevant stat is PE (which also determines HP). We'll also assume that the character is a mutant with a base of 30 SDC (no physical skills to increase or additional powers that would change this). This is merely a straight comparison of Super Regeneration to all the other main healing powers available.

So like before we will start with Super Regeneration. Since, as written, it doesn't offer any Physical bonuses... to PE, HP or SDC... so these will start off at base levels (assuming 1st level). That means PE: 9, HP: 12, SDC: 30. As stated before, this character will be going up against a 1st level villain with Energy Expulsion: Fire (doing 2d6 damage per shot at 1st level). Both will have 4 attacks per melee, and for the time being we will assume no relevant bonuses to Strike or Dodge... just straight rolls. With this we will assume that the villain only manages 2 hits per melee round for an average of 7 damage per hit. We will also assume that the Super Regeneration allows the hero to regenerate an average of 7 pts. per melee round... thus the villain's damage per melee is reduced to 7 pts (2 hits for 7 damage each = 14 damage, of which 7 is healed, leaving the hero to take 7 pts of damage per melee round). Assuming the same thing plays out each round, the hero will only be able to last 8 melee rounds before he is reduced past -9 HP and dies.

So this means that the base line survival to beat with the other powers is 8 melee rounds or 2 minutes of combat time.

Now, we will adjust this hero to see how well he survives with the Minor Power of Healing Factor instead. Healing Factor adds a bonus to PE (but in this example we will give the character the benefit of the doubt and say this bonus adds 5 to PE) bringing it up to 14. It also adds to HP, bringing it up to a total of 30. Lastly it adds a bonus to SDC, bringing it up to 55. To recap, the adjusted relevant stats are now PE: 14, HP: 30, SDC: 55. He will now go up against the same villain with the same power and the same combat stats between them... resulting in 2 hits per melee round with an average of 7 damage per hit doing a total of 14 damage. Now, unlike Super Regeneration, this character can't heal per melee round to reduce this damage... however, Healing Factor does make him resistant to Fire and Cold, reducing the fire damage he is taking from this villain by half... bringing the damage per melee round down to 7. Additionally, twice per day, Healing Factor allows the character to instantly heal damage... which will average at 14 pts per regeneration. So with these factors taken into account, this character can last about 18 melee rounds.

Healing Factor alone allows this character to survive combat with this villain for 18 melee rounds or 4 1/2 minutes... over twice the time the same character could last with just Super Regeneration.

Okay... let's move on to Healing Power. Yes, I know that this power is meant to heal others, but humor me for a moment, okay? So the only relevant bonus this power adds is to PE, and again we will give the character the benefit of the roll and say he gets the average of 5 to add to his PE, bringing it up to 14. This makes the relevant stats PE: 14, HP: 17, SDC: 30. Again, we will go up against the same villain with the same power and the same combat results. This time however, the hero has no way to mitigate reduce the damage he takes, resulting in him taking the full 14 pts of damage per melee round his opponent can dish out. This results in the hero lasting a mere 5 melee rounds.

Healing Power lasted 5 melee rounds or 1 1/4 minutes... making it weaker than Super Regeneration... but not by a significant amount (a mere 45 seconds).

Next we will look at Divine Healing... a Major Power that Super Regeneration should be roughly equivalent to... as both are Major Powers. Now the physical stat bonuses work out to PE: 11, HP: 18, SDC: 60. Against the same villain as before, with the same combat results per melee round (2 hits out of 4 attacks with an average of 7 damage per hit). Like Healing Factor, Divine Healing makes the character resistant to Fire, cutting the damage the villain does by half (7 pts per round). Additionally, also like Healing Factor, Divine Healing allows for Instant Regeneration, but this time 3 times per day, with an average of 14 pts healed per regeneration. With these factors taken into account, the character will last about 19 rounds.

So the character with Divine Healing will only last 19 rounds or 4 3/4 minutes... just 15 seconds longer than Healing Factor... which would suggest that this power is also weak... until we take into consideration that Divine Healing also adds an extended lifespan to the character, the ability to heal others and even revive the recently deceased, thus keeping the power firmly within the Major Category as a decent power, even though it doesn't give a significant increase in combat survivability over Healing Factor... but still more than twice as long as what Super Regeneration provides.

Now, let's look at Regeneration Ultima. Like Super Regeneration, this power adds no bonuses to the character's relevant stats, leaving them at PE: 9, HP: 12, SDC: 30. Against the same villain, with the same combat results, the character will take 14 pts of damage per melee round. Like Super Regeneration, Regeneration Ultima allows for the character to heal damage per melee round, but not quite as quickly... healing only 3 pts per melee round (on average). Thus with this power the character would take 11 pts of damage. This means that the character would last about 5 rounds.

Regeneration Ultima allows the character to last 5 round or 1 1/4 minutes. Now, initially that sounds worse than the 2 minutes that Super Regeneration would last... except for the fact that the character can come back from the dead twice. True, he looses a level of experience the first time, and 2 levels the second time, but for the sake of argument, we will assume that he manages to gain enough experience to bring himself to the same level as before each time before taking on the villain again (with the same results as previously). Thus, in order to be permanently killed, this character will have a total of 15 melee rounds of fighting... over 3 battles... bringing the total survival time in a fight with the same villain as before to 3 3/4 minutes... slightly less than double the time Super Regeneration provides.

Now for the sake of argument, let's look at how long the character would last if he had the Mega Power of Immortality (ignoring the fact that this power would normally enhance other powers). Relevant stat wise, this mega power on its own doesn't add anything to his stats, but being a mega hero does increase all SDC by 50%... so let's count that as a bonus. This means that his base stats will be PE: 9, HP: 12, SDC: 45. Unlike Healing Factor, the character doesn't get any base resistance to fire damage, and like it and Divine Healing, his natural rate of regeneration is too slow to mitigate the damage he takes from the same villain as above (Immortal characters regenerate every 10 minutes). However, unlike all the previous powers, he can recover from damage as severe as -300 HP, which we will factor into his survival rate. Now assuming that the villain maintains the same combat performance as above (2 hits per melee for an average of 7 damage per hit), this hero can expect to last about 26 melee rounds.

Immortality (Mega) will allow the character to last 26 melee rounds or 6 1/2 minutes... more than 3 times what just Super Regeneration allows... and 2 minutes longer than what Healing Factor does. True, this power (and Mega Heroes in general) will enhance all the powers a character has, but these examples were meant to show how these individual powers stack up against each other.

Now, while there were some powers that performed worse than Super Regeneration (Healing Power... which admittedly is more about healing others than providing for one's own survivability; and Regeneration Ultima, which with a single life performed worse, but with all of them combined performed better), the other powers, including Healing Factor (a minor power) performed substantially better... at least twice as well.

Now, for the sake of argument, let's apply the bonuses I suggested... the modified ones that were most recent. The base physical stats will be modified to PE 16, HP: 23, SDC: 80. The rate of regeneration is the same as Super Regeneration normally is, thus he will regenerate 7 pts each melee. Finally, the character can go to -PEx3 below zero (starting to think that might be a little low, but for now we will see how it plays out). Like above, he will go against the same villain with the same powers and with the same results from combat (2 hits out of 4 attacks per melee for an average of 7 damage per hit... for a net damage of 7 per melee round). With these modifications, this hero will last 22 rounds before being defeated.

With the bonuses I proposed for Super Regeneration, the character now lasts for 22 rounds, or 5 1/2 minutes... a full minute better than Healing Factor, but still a minute less than the Immortality (Mega) Power... and substantially better than Super Regeneration as written. This puts the power firmly where I would expect it to be... superior to the other common healing powers (including the minor ones), but still less than base-line Mega Immortality. With these bonuses, it is clearly a better self healing power than the others, though the other Major Powers have abilities this power doesn't (Divine Healing will live longer naturally, heal and revive others; while Regeneration Ultima allows a character to come back from the dead when actually killed). Those factors will make those powers attractive enough to take even though the character won't be able to survive as much punishment as they could with Super Regeneration. While balanced doesn't mean exactly equal, I feel that when the other abilities of the other Major Healing powers are taken into account, the bonuses I suggested balance out.

True, other powers a character may have will alter the results of these scenarios (sometimes significantly), they are making the character better, not the power... and this was merely meant as a comparison of these specific powers with all other factors being equal.
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Razorwing »

Okay... now, just to be fair... let's redo the combat with a villain that has an energy expulsion power that Healing Factor (and Divine Healing) wouldn't be resistant to... say Energy Expulsion: Light (just to see how much that resistance to fire skews the results).

So... as in the example above, the character with Healing Factor will have base relevant stats of PE: 14, HP: 30, SDC: 55. He can also instantly regenerate damage twice for an average of 14 pts each time... total of 28. The villain will be the same, with the same combat success (2 hits with 4 attacks, with an average of 7 damage per attack), the only difference this time is that the attack is one that Healing Factor has no resistance to, so he takes the full damage of those attacks (twice as much as before). When this is taken into account, the character will only last for about 10 melee rounds... about 2 1/2 minutes... 25% better than with Super Regeneration. So, even without the resistance to a specific type of damage, Healing Factor is still better than Super Regeneration... though not the 2.25 times as above.

Now, let's see how Divine Healing would function under similar situations. The base relevant stats will be the same... PE: 11, HP: 18, SDC: 60 and can instantly regenerate 3 times for an average of 14 pts each (42 pts total). Again, I will use the same villain as the previous example with the same combat results, but like before, he will now use a power that Divine Healing doesn't have a resistance to. With these factors taken into consideration, this character will last roughly 10 melee rounds as well... doing about as well as Healing Factor does... and still marginally better than Super Regeneration (though not as well as before).

So even when the Resistance to Fire/Cold is taken out of the equation, Divine Healing and Healing Factor still do better than Super Regeneration... but not to the same degree as before. While this does prove that Super Regeneration isn't quite as weak as my previous examples suggested... it still shows that it is weak when compared to the minor power it is supposed to be a "cosmic" version of.

Now, when this new example is compared to the bonuses I proposed, it shows that my modified Super Regeneration (which lasted about 5 1/2 minutes) is now a little more than twice as effective as either Healing Factor or Divine Healing. I am still confident that this is acceptable. A "cosmic" level of Healing Factor should be clearly better than the normal version (and this modified version of Super Regeneration is clearly that). Divine Healing is still competitive with this power through the other abilities it has that this modified Super Regeneration doesn't (specifically the ability to heal others and even revive them from the dead; not to mention living longer). Even Regeneration Ultima is still competitive as it allows for self-recovery from death that Super Regeneration doesn't.

In the end I will stand by these results... which clearly speak for themselves. Like it or not... on its own and as written, Super Regeneration is too weak... maybe not quite as weak as I initially presented, but is still out performed by the minor power it is supposed to be better than. It would be like seeing a character with Extraordinary Speed out performing someone with Sonic Speed (which, thankfully the former won't do as the latter is clearly a superior power). When a minor power does a better job than a major power that is supposed to be a superior form of that minor power... then the major power is too weak.

It really is that simple.
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Cr'Imson »

Razorwing wrote:... The point was SPECIFICALY comparing the survivability of Super Regeneration to Healing Factor with all other variables taken out of the equation. ...

Thus, skewing all comparison.
Razorwing wrote:... The logical fallacy you are making is thinking that ...

The ability to heal S.D.C./HPs, alone, will save the day (though it might, in some cases), and that Super Regeneration needs to have extra bonuses to stack-up.
Razorwing wrote:Okay... now, just to be fair... let's ...

Not just look at the survivability of Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor based on S.D.C./HP recovery, but let us also take into account the regeneration portion of Super Regeneration as well.

Healing Factor - Say a character gets his/her arm blown off. With Healing Factor, healing a bit faster than Super Regeneration, the character will eventually heal HPs. However, their arm is gone and penalties will, most likely, be permanently applied to that character (barring the character re-growing/replacing the arm in some other way).

Super Regeneration - Say a character gets his/her arm blown off. With Super Regeneration, healing a bit slower than Healing Factor, the character will eventually heal HPs. However, with the regeneration part of this ability added in, their arm is not gone for good and will grow back, negating the permanent application of penalties to that character (though penalties should apply for a limited time, just until the arm does grow back).

Razorwing wrote:... While balanced doesn't mean exactly equal, I feel that when the other abilities of ...

Super Regeneration are taken into account, that this ability needs no additional bonuses. (Though a bit of errata dealing with the -P.P. in HPs may be needed.)
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Nightmask »

Razorwing wrote:
Nightmask wrote:When a power says 'the only way to truly kill someone with this power is X' then X is the only way to kill them, period. It's not X along with Y. So when those Regeneration powers like Super-Regeneration and the Immortality Mega-Power say 'can only be killed by this kind of damage' then that's it, no amount of HP damage matters unless it also meets X. It's not that PLUS whatever the normal damage point that leads to death is, that renders the original 'only killed by X' meaningless since now it's not X it's X on top of the original way.


That's just it... it doesn't say this is the ONLY way to kill characters with these powers. It says these ways will kill these characters... not that they are the only ways. The Immortality mega power specifies that such characters can recover from damage as severe as -300 HP. Why specify that specific amount if such a character can not die of any damage no matter how far below zero they go? Because, even though it is difficult to do so, one can still kill these characters through massive bodily trauma. As I explained, the additional options for killing such a character will often be easier to accomplish than massive body trauma as one has to deal that much damage faster than it is recovered. Besides... what did you think would happen if a character with this mega power once reduced to -301 or less HP?

The same is true with Super Regeneration. NO WHERE is it actually stated that massive trauma won't kill such characters... merely that you have to destroy more than 90% of the heart and/or brain to do so. These are additional methods to kill the character that circumvent the phenomenal regeneration rate they have without having to constantly pummel them with damage.


I guess I have to repeat myself. When it says 'can only be truly killed by X' then that's what it means. No you cannot kill the characters by massive bodily trauma since the powers make it clear that those things won't kill them, only the things that they state will kill them. The reason for the -300 HP limit should be obvious, that's the point where the body is effectively destroyed. The character with the Immortal Regeneration mega-power, great as it is, requires that at least the skeleton remain relatively intact, dealing over 300 HP below zero means the skeleton simply failed to remain in order for them to regenerate from. It should be obvious if they can regenerate from just a skeleton (albeit waking up like a century later on) that no amount of trauma can kill them since you can't have more trauma than having your bones stripped of flash. Same holds for Super-Regeneration, outside of the trauma specified (heart/brain destruction) they aren't going to be killed by the other routes that would normally kill someone because the power simply removes that vulnerability.
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Axelmania »

Super Regeneration is already first on my list, it doesn't need any improvements.

Nothing stopping you from getting healing factor too if you want the anti-disease stuff as well. That will also add a handy +2 to the points you regenerate using super-regen, per the rules for having multiple healing powers.
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Razorwing »

Nightmask wrote:
Razorwing wrote:
Nightmask wrote:When a power says 'the only way to truly kill someone with this power is X' then X is the only way to kill them, period. It's not X along with Y. So when those Regeneration powers like Super-Regeneration and the Immortality Mega-Power say 'can only be killed by this kind of damage' then that's it, no amount of HP damage matters unless it also meets X. It's not that PLUS whatever the normal damage point that leads to death is, that renders the original 'only killed by X' meaningless since now it's not X it's X on top of the original way.


That's just it... it doesn't say this is the ONLY way to kill characters with these powers. It says these ways will kill these characters... not that they are the only ways. The Immortality mega power specifies that such characters can recover from damage as severe as -300 HP. Why specify that specific amount if such a character can not die of any damage no matter how far below zero they go? Because, even though it is difficult to do so, one can still kill these characters through massive bodily trauma. As I explained, the additional options for killing such a character will often be easier to accomplish than massive body trauma as one has to deal that much damage faster than it is recovered. Besides... what did you think would happen if a character with this mega power once reduced to -301 or less HP?

The same is true with Super Regeneration. NO WHERE is it actually stated that massive trauma won't kill such characters... merely that you have to destroy more than 90% of the heart and/or brain to do so. These are additional methods to kill the character that circumvent the phenomenal regeneration rate they have without having to constantly pummel them with damage.


I guess I have to repeat myself. When it says 'can only be truly killed by X' then that's what it means. No you cannot kill the characters by massive bodily trauma since the powers make it clear that those things won't kill them, only the things that they state will kill them. The reason for the -300 HP limit should be obvious, that's the point where the body is effectively destroyed. The character with the Immortal Regeneration mega-power, great as it is, requires that at least the skeleton remain relatively intact, dealing over 300 HP below zero means the skeleton simply failed to remain in order for them to regenerate from. It should be obvious if they can regenerate from just a skeleton (albeit waking up like a century later on) that no amount of trauma can kill them since you can't have more trauma than having your bones stripped of flash. Same holds for Super-Regeneration, outside of the trauma specified (heart/brain destruction) they aren't going to be killed by the other routes that would normally kill someone because the power simply removes that vulnerability.


And I will repeat myself once again... NO WHERE IN THE BOOK DOES IT SAY THIS! Not in the Description of Immortality. Not in the Description of Super Regeneration. IT DOES NOT SAY SUCH CHARACTERS CAN ONLY BE KILLED THESE WAYS.

Show me the exact place in either the description of Immortality (or Super Regeneration) where it specifically states that these characters CAN NOT die from HP loss. It does state additional methods of killing them (atomized, Incineration, Decapitation), but I can't find any statement that says that these are the ONLY ways these characters can die. If the powers don't specifically state that these characters can not die from HP loss... then they can still die from it.
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Razorwing »

Axelmania wrote:Super Regeneration is already first on my list, it doesn't need any improvements.

Nothing stopping you from getting healing factor too if you want the anti-disease stuff as well. That will also add a handy +2 to the points you regenerate using super-regen, per the rules for having multiple healing powers.


Nothing stopping you... no... save the fact that you are now buying two healing powers merely to improve one of them. Nothing is stopping a character from taking Extraordinary Speed and Sonic Speed either... save that it is a redundant combination.
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Razorwing »

Cr'Imson wrote:
Razorwing wrote:... The point was SPECIFICALY comparing the survivability of Super Regeneration to Healing Factor with all other variables taken out of the equation. ...

Thus, skewing all comparison.
Razorwing wrote:... The logical fallacy you are making is thinking that ...

The ability to heal S.D.C./HPs, alone, will save the day (though it might, in some cases), and that Super Regeneration needs to have extra bonuses to stack-up.
Razorwing wrote:Okay... now, just to be fair... let's ...

Not just look at the survivability of Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor based on S.D.C./HP recovery, but let us also take into account the regeneration portion of Super Regeneration as well.

Healing Factor - Say a character gets his/her arm blown off. With Healing Factor, healing a bit faster than Super Regeneration, the character will eventually heal HPs. However, their arm is gone and penalties will, most likely, be permanently applied to that character (barring the character re-growing/replacing the arm in some other way).

Super Regeneration - Say a character gets his/her arm blown off. With Super Regeneration, healing a bit slower than Healing Factor, the character will eventually heal HPs. However, with the regeneration part of this ability added in, their arm is not gone for good and will grow back, negating the permanent application of penalties to that character (though penalties should apply for a limited time, just until the arm does grow back).

Razorwing wrote:... While balanced doesn't mean exactly equal, I feel that when the other abilities of ...

Super Regeneration are taken into account, that this ability needs no additional bonuses. (Though a bit of errata dealing with the -P.P. in HPs may be needed.)
Razorwing wrote:... In the end I will stand by these results... which clearly speak for themselves. Like it or not... ...

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Cr'Imson


Yes... comparing two powers directly definitely skews the comparison... why confuse people by actually using just the two powers on their own when you can make it a lot more clear by including many more powers that can improve the character's survival yet have nothing to do with the powers being compared.

And yes, that was sarcasm (doesn't translate well to text, but I am sure you know what it sounds like).

When comparing the performance of anything, one takes as many other variables out of the equation as possible. That is how you get a clear view of how something compares with something else. That isn't skewing the result... but proving that one of the things being compared is clearly better than the other. When other variables, such as any other power are removed, all you are left with is the exact performance of the power being compared. Sure... I could have given the Character any other power that would have increased PE, HP, SDC or any other factor and gotten a different result... but that would have been BECAUSE of the additional power... not because of anything better about Super Regeneration or Healing Factor.

Clearly you are not familiar with comparisons or even simple scientific processes... but then that is your problem... not mine.

I even realized that the Fire/Cold Resistance from Healing Factor could be skewing the results in favor of Healing Factor... thus I redid the examples using a power that neither power would be resistant to... and Healing Factor still beat Super Regeneration by a clear (though smaller) margin. Even with the character having additional powers, the results would still be the same... Healing Factor is BETTER than Super Regeneration as written.

You can continue to live in denial... the examples above is all the proof anyone will need to see this clearly (that a minor power out performs the major power that is claimed to be a superior version of it). It is sad that you can't see this... so I am simply going to stop arguing with you any further... at least until you decide to stop cherry-picking my comments and quoting me out of context to support your own assumptions.
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Cr'Imson »

Razorwing wrote:... And yes, that was sarcasm (doesn't translate well to text, ...

I think that I do well enough.
Razorwing wrote:... Clearly you are not familiar with comparisons ...

Between the ability to Heal vs. the ability to Regenerate.
Razorwing wrote:... ... but then that is your problem... not mine. ...

Razorwing wrote:... You can continue to live in denial... the examples above is all the proof anyone will need to see this clearly (that ...

Razorwing wrote:While balanced doesn't mean exactly equal, ...

The ability to Regenerate is held apart from the ability to Heal.



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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Daniel Stoker »

Glistam wrote:If we're only using what's actually written in the books then why are we talking about giving bonuses to Super Regeneration? By the book that power gets no bonuses, only the healing abilities. If you want a healing power with bonuses use the inferior Healing Factor power or the original version of the Super Regeneration power as was written up in Rifter 11.


Or take solar powered! ;-)


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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Axelmania »

Razorwing wrote:Nothing stopping you... no... save the fact that you are now buying two healing powers merely to improve one of them. Nothing is stopping a character from taking Extraordinary Speed and Sonic Speed either... save that it is a redundant combination.


It's not redundant. ANY duplicate healing factor adds +2 to the best one. So you don't just get the non-healing beneits of Healing Factor, you also get another 2 SDC/melee round back, more than Healing added in the first place.
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Razorwing »

Characters in the game only have a limited number of Super Powers. Spending two of them, a Major Power and a Minor Power on healing is a waste... at least in the view of most people I've played with over the last 20 years. Why waste one of a limited number of powers to get a negligible increase in another. Is that +2 really worth spending an extra power on when one could get something like an energy blast... improved stats... various enhanced movements (fast running, flight, leaping)... enhanced senses... immunity/impervious to various specific attacks... and any number of utility powers.

Is really the best option a character has... to take a minor power to get a slight improvement for a weak major power?
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Cr'Imson »

Razorwing wrote:Characters in the game only have a limited number of Super Powers. Spending two of them, a Major Power and a Minor Power on healing is a waste... at least in the view of most people I've played with over the last 20 years. Why waste one of a limited number of powers to get a negligible increase in another. Is that +2 really worth spending an extra power on when one could get something like an energy blast... improved stats... various enhanced movements (fast running, flight, leaping)... enhanced senses... immunity/impervious to various specific attacks... and any number of utility powers.

Is really the best option a character has... to take a minor power to get a slight improvement for a weak major power?

No. It is the other way around (according to HU-2E pg. 74, as it only deals with rate of healing, not Minor vs. Major vs. Mega, and does not alter the other abilities of the healing powers being combined). Healing Factor would be the base power (including all other bonuses gained from that power). Super Regeneration would add +2 to HF's rate of healing and allow for the regeneration of organs, limbs, etc.



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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Cr'Imson »

Cr'Imson wrote:
Razorwing wrote:Characters in the game only have a limited number of Super Powers. Spending two of them, a Major Power and a Minor Power on healing is a waste... at least in the view of most people I've played with over the last 20 years. Why waste one of a limited number of powers to get a negligible increase in another. Is that +2 really worth spending an extra power on when one could get something like an energy blast... improved stats... various enhanced movements (fast running, flight, leaping)... enhanced senses... immunity/impervious to various specific attacks... and any number of utility powers.

Is really the best option a character has... to take a minor power to get a slight improvement for a weak major power?

No. It is the other way around (according to HU-2E pg. 74, as it only deals with rate of healing, not Minor vs. Major vs. Mega, and does not alter the other abilities of the healing powers being combined). Healing Factor would be the base power (including all other bonuses gained from that power). Super Regeneration would add +2 to HF's rate of healing and allow for the regeneration of organs, limbs, etc.



Cr'Imson

Ok, had to look that up. Super Regeneration's rate of per round is better than Healing Factor's rate of per hour. So, it would be Super Regeneration as the base power. Still, it would not just be a bonus of +2 to Super Regeneration's rate, but would also include everything else that Healing Factor offers.



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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Razorwing »

The point isn't which one is improved and what bonuses you get.

The point is that you spent two power slots (of a very limited number of power slots) on more or less the same power... to get a slight increase in one power.

That is like taking Energy Expulsion: Fire with Alter Physical Structure: Fire (or Control Elemental Forces: Fire) just to do 1d6 more damage than someone with just one of those Major powers.

Is this really the best way to spend one's powers... wasting one power to get a slight increase in another?

And don't say that it gets a huge bonus with everything that Healing Factor adds. That comes from Healing Factor alone... not Super Regeneration. You could get similar bonuses (at least in regards to PE and SDC) if one were to take Extraordinary Physical Endurance. In the end, Super Regeneration will still be the pathetic Major that it is... marginally useful only because Healing Factor was also taken.

If one has to take a second healing power to make another (supposedly more powerful) healing power better than what it is... is it really that great? And in case you were wondering... the answer is "No."
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by dreicunan »

I'd say that the math is pretty definitive; Super Regeneration is not doing what it says that it should be doing: acting as a cosmic version of healing factor. I think that the bonuses that you've settled on make it a balanced power in the pantheon of abilities. After looking at all the details, I think that I'd give Regeneration Ultima the exact same stat bumps that Regeneration got in Rifter 11 as well (+6 PE, +1d4x10 SDC, +3d6 HP).
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Razorwing »

dreicunan wrote:I'd say that the math is pretty definitive; Super Regeneration is not doing what it says that it should be doing: acting as a cosmic version of healing factor. I think that the bonuses that you've settled on make it a balanced power in the pantheon of abilities. After looking at all the details, I think that I'd give Regeneration Ultima the exact same stat bumps that Regeneration got in Rifter 11 as well (+6 PE, +1d4x10 SDC, +3d6 HP).


That is actually not bad... and given that this power can actually bring one back from true death a few times, it shouldn't over power Super Regeneration with the bonuses... at least not without using a few of those extra lives.

Finally someone who can set aside any preconceived notions and analyze a power rationally.

I actually like Super Regeneration... it just doesn't perform like it claims... and actually performs worse than the minor power it is supposed to be better than. No major power should be outclassed by a minor power that is supposed to be a weaker version of it... that would like minor Energy Expulsion powers doing more damage that Super-Energy Expulsion... Extraordinary Speed outperforming Sonic Speed... or Personal Force Field defending better than Force Aura. In each of these examples, the Major power version performs substantially better than the Minor power version. That is my reasoning behind suggesting the bonuses.

It is refreshing to hear someone else reaching the same conclusion I did.
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Cr'Imson »

Razorwing wrote:... Finally someone who ...

Is also a card-carrying member of the Lollipop Guild who agrees. I am sure that it must be quite refreshing, indeed.


dreicunan wrote:I'd say that the math is pretty definitive; Super Regeneration is not doing what it says that it should be doing: acting as a cosmic version of healing factor.

Then you may have missed the following points, here is a recap for you.
Cr'Imson wrote:Healing Factor - Say a character gets his/her arm blown off. With Healing Factor, the character will eventually heal HPs. However, their arm is gone and penalties will, most likely, be permanently applied to that character (barring the character re-growing/replacing the arm in some other way).

Super Regeneration - Say a character gets his/her arm blown off. With Super Regeneration, the character will eventually heal HPs. However, with the regeneration part of this ability added in, their arm is not gone for good and will grow back, negating the permanent application of penalties to that character (though penalties should apply for a limited time, just until the arm does grow back).

And
Cr'Imson wrote:Super Regeneration's rate of per round is better than Healing Factor's rate of per hour.

So, short any proposed cheese-sauce to this lollipop bonuses being added, is Supper Regeneration really worse than Healing Factor with all of that in mind?

Razorwing wrote:... No major power should be ...

Arbitrarily changed because of ... Cheese-Sauce.



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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Razorwing »

I see you're back to copy and pasting your cherry picked quotes out of context to try and support your position.

Let me ask you one important question. What good is being able to regrow a character's arm if that character can't survive the combat where he looses it?

The #1 purpose of a power like Super Regeneration or Healing Factor is to keep a character alive long enough to turn the tide of battle so that they can recover from the injuries they take. Everything else they offer beyond this is secondary. Immunity to disease, regrowing limbs or organs, even never tiring... it is all meaningless if the character can't survive to use them.

When Powers Unlimited 3 first came out and my group saw Super Regeneration... we were excited to be able to give characters a Wolverine-like regenerative power (one that healed as fast as he does in the movies). Sadly, the characters that took it learned the hard way that it just didn't live up to the expectation we've come to expect for a Major power... especially when another character with only Healing Factor did better. Thinking this was just the result of bad dice rolls, we tested it further... with similar results.

Any real play-testing before releasing PU3 should have revealed that Super Regeneration wasn't performing as it likely should have. The only conclusion that my group could come up with is that the power wasn't properly play-tested before it was approved and released. I don't know if play-testing is something Palladium does or not (especially with supplements like this)... but they probably should if they don't.

I am sorry that you can't put aside your preconceived notions of what you believe is a perfectly balanced power and analyze its actual performance rationally. Maybe... one day... when your character with such a power has died when your fellow gamer with Healing Factor survives, you will come to see the truth of what I say. Until then... until you stop cherry picking your cut and paste out of the context quotes and actually provide support for your position that counters the evidence I have presented (opinions mean nothing... facts and evidence decide who is right and wrong), then there is little left that you can offer to this conversation (though I am sure you will continue to try).
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by eliakon »

Just my .02 here

Regeneration per round IS going to help in battle though.
Healing Factor will only heal you in the down time after a fight... if you live of course
Super Regeneration will give you back health every round. If you are running low... go hide for a couple minutes and then come back (if you have a time manipulation power you can be a real terror here)
That sort of sounds like it is cosmic... it is hundreds of times faster...
And on top of being hundreds of times faster it offers perks like "get your arm back"
The ability to recover from being drugged in combat time
The ability to come back from the dead!
The ability to heal organ damage in minutes (that means you could heal a damaged organ during a fight!)

If that is not enough I am not sure what is?
I mean just the "come back from the dead"? Right there it joins a pretty select group of powers (Multiple lives, Regeneration Ultima, Immortality Mega-Power...) there are dozens of ways to fly, over a hundred direct damage dealers, debuffers by the score... but resurrection Super Powers? You can count those on one hand and have fingers left over.
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Razorwing »

First off... did you not see my examples above? I took into account the regeneration rate to mitigate damage... as well as the instant healing ability that Healing Factor allows twice per day. AND THIS WAS WITH A SINGLE, LOW POWERED OPPONENT.

While hiding and giving oneself an opportunity to heal is a viable tactic... it isn't always feasible. Sometimes a character is just taking too much damage per round to get a chance to break off and hide (remember, by the rules, dodging bullets and energy blasts is very difficult... a straight roll (no bonus) at -5 to -10). This means if the character is ambushed (say by a swat team that sees the vigilante as no different than the criminal he beat up), he could be pushed to the brink of death before he even gets a chance to break off and hide.

This brings me to one other point that I must repeat... immortal (mega) and Super Regeneration characters CAN NOT COME BACK FROM THE DEAD. Yes, in the case of Immortal (mega) he can suffer so much damage that he appears to be dead (up to -300 HP damage)... but isn't actually dead. Super Regeneration is even less likely as they can only suffer -PE below zero HP before they die. There is nothing in the description of either power specifically says such characters can not die from HP loss (or that they will come back if they are pushed to that level). They do have additional ways that can prevent their regenerative abilities from healing them... and many of them are very specific in what is called "dead"... but in all such cases where they are able to survive... they only APPEARED to be dead... they weren't actually dead (not according to the descriptions provided in the powers). If a power doesn't specifically say that the Character can not be killed from HP loss, then that character CAN die from HP loss. Once actually dead (as opposed to merely appearing dead)... these characters won't come back.

Yes, the rate of regeneration for Super Regeneration is hundreds (actually thousands) of times better than Healing Factor... but that doesn't matter if Healing Factor can keep a character alive longer from the additional bonuses it gets (including the instant healing).

On paper, it looks like Super Regeneration is indeed the superior healing ability... but in simulation through play tests... it isn't. The little bonuses that Healing Factor gets... to PE, SDC and HP... tip the balance in its favor... allowing such a character to take a little more damage before his life ends than the same character would with Super Regeneration.
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by eliakon »

Razorwing wrote:First off... did you not see my examples above? I took into account the regeneration rate to mitigate damage... as well as the instant healing ability that Healing Factor allows twice per day. AND THIS WAS WITH A SINGLE, LOW POWERED OPPONENT.

While hiding and giving oneself an opportunity to heal is a viable tactic... it isn't always feasible. Sometimes a character is just taking too much damage per round to get a chance to break off and hide (remember, by the rules, dodging bullets and energy blasts is very difficult... a straight roll (no bonus) at -5 to -10). This means if the character is ambushed (say by a swat team that sees the vigilante as no different than the criminal he beat up), he could be pushed to the brink of death before he even gets a chance to break off and hide.

Ummm so your saying that if you are ambushed by a special force that is designed to take you down you might not be able to deal with it?
Color me shocked that a highly contrived situation where the opposition gets all the possible advantages might not come out in the favor of the underdog.
I am going to, respectfully, disregard any defense that requires as a necessary predicate "if the character is ambushed by a swat team"

Razorwing wrote:This brings me to one other point that I must repeat... immortal (mega) and Super Regeneration characters CAN NOT COME BACK FROM THE DEAD.

The book begs to differ
Razorwing wrote:Yes, in the case of Immortal (mega) he can suffer so much damage that he appears to be dead (up to -300 HP damage)... but isn't actually dead. Super Regeneration is even less likely as they can only suffer -PE below zero HP before they die. There is nothing in the description of either power specifically says such characters can not die from HP loss (or that they will come back if they are pushed to that level). They do have additional ways that can prevent their regenerative abilities from healing them... and many of them are very specific in what is called "dead"... but in all such cases where they are able to survive... they only APPEARED to be dead... they weren't actually dead (not according to the descriptions provided in the powers). If a power doesn't specifically say that the Character can not be killed from HP loss, then that character CAN die from HP loss. Once actually dead (as opposed to merely appearing dead)... these characters won't come back.

Again, the book begs to differ
PU3 page 99
"Such grievous injury to the brain will cause the character to forget the exact cause of death and the most traumatic moment..."

And yes, we all know that it is your opinion that the power does not provide the protections it seems to provide.
Which, to be blunt, is why it seems underpowered to you.
If you remove the most spectacular part of a power then guess what? It's going to look weak... because you just nerfed it into weakness.
When I read "Decapitation, complete destruction of the brain and being blow to bits or atomized spells death" then I see that as being pretty clear that lesser harm does NOT spell death.

Razorwing wrote:Yes, the rate of regeneration for Super Regeneration is hundreds (actually thousands) of times better than Healing Factor... but that doesn't matter if Healing Factor can keep a character alive longer from the additional bonuses it gets (including the instant healing).

On paper, it looks like Super Regeneration is indeed the superior healing ability... but in simulation through play tests... it isn't. The little bonuses that Healing Factor gets... to PE, SDC and HP... tip the balance in its favor... allowing such a character to take a little more damage before his life ends than the same character would with Super Regeneration.

I respectfully disagree.
I don't think that the minor boosts to that Healing Factor provides are really that impressive over the actual healing in combat.
Especially since, as I have said before, it seems that as written the intention of the power is to provide regeneration that is nearly unstoppable, if you just shoot the person fifty times, cut them in half at the torso and let the parts fall down the mile deep Crack Of Doom...
...that will just slow them down.
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Razorwing
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Razorwing »

It says that he can regenerate from as much as 90% brain loss... and that such damage will cause memory loss.

He may appear dead... but he isn't.

All powers that allow one to come back from actual death do so a LIMITED NUMBER OF TIMES. Multiple Lives... Regeneration Ultima... all have a limited number of times they can bring a person back from the dead. Super Regeneration doesn't make any such statements... so either it can't actually bring one back from actual death (just the near death one experiences between -PE and zero HP) or it will bring a character back an unlimited number of times... which makes the other two powers... well.. useless.

Since it doesn't actually state that this character comes back from death, we have to assume the "death" that it is referring to is merely the near death characters experience once reduced to zero HP or less.

One has to be able to tell the difference between what the power actually is... and what is merely being used as metaphor. Most beings can't suffer 90% of brain damage and recover... they die. Super Regeneration is such that such a character is still ALIVE (not actually dead)... even though most people who see him would think he is dead. He may even believe that such damage killed him... but the power actually states that in such a state he is still alive and will recover.

What it doesn't state is that if a character actually dies... pushed to -PE below zero HP that he will recover. Immortality (mega) states this... allowing one to remain conscious upto -130 HP and surviving as much as -300 HP damage (at which point one has to assume that most of the body has been destroyed/atomized/incinerated). Since the power doesn't state that the character can go below -PE below zero HP... or come back from actual death (like Multiple Lives and Regeneration Ultima specifically state in their descriptions) that the character still dies when pushed that far below zero HP and will NOT recover.

This means that when a character is pushed below zero HP, he has likely suffered damage to the brain and/or heart and will loose consciousness as normal (since the power doesn't state he remains concious). As long as he isn't below -PE Hit Points, he will recover... likely loosing the memory of exactly what happened that caused this NEAR death. Once below -PE Hit Points... the character has suffered more than 90% damage to the Brain and/or Heart and will not recover... the character is DEAD... and Super Regeneration (unlike Multiple Lives and Regeneration Ultima) does NOT say he can come back from actual death.

This is what Super Regeneration gives:
1. the ability to recover HP/SDC every melee Round.
2. Impervious to disease.
3. Reduced duration and effectiveness of poison, toxins and disease.
4. Complete regeneration of internal organs... including the heart and brain, even if as much as 90% is destroyed (and that with this much damage to the brain, memory loss is likely... including the cause of such trauma. While a character with such damage may appear to be dead... even should be dead, he isn't actually dead... yet).
5. Regrowth of lost limbs.

Not once does it say the character can come back from the dead... it doesn't even say that he can go past the normal limit that designates when someone is dead. This is ALL that a character with Super Regeneration gets. If it doesn't actually state that he can come back when killed... he can't. If doesn't say he can go below -PE Hit Points... he can't. When it says that "the character won't remember the cause of death," it is speaking metaphorically as the character will not actually be dead unless more than 90% of the brain or heart is destroyed... which happens once the character goes below -PE Hit Points (since the power doesn't specify any other marker for such a judgement).

As for the example... who says it was specifically designed for him? Isn't it standard SWAT tactics to set up a kill zone where they can take out an opponent (hero, vigilante or villain) quickly. It could just as easily be a gang of criminals, henchmen or even a group of villains. If Super Regeneration can't keep a character alive for more than 2 minutes against a single first level villain... how is he going to survive taking on a group of thugs... or escape from cops intent on bringing him down? Especially if there are enough of them to keep dealing enough damage that he can't avoid or escape from? The point is that there will come a time when the character can't call "TIME OUT" to take a few minutes to heal... especially if there are more opponents than there are heroes in the fight. Sure, most may gang up on the huge armored guy that their bullets are bouncing off of... but a few are likely to see the guy hiding in the back and think "Easy Prey" and will gang up on him too... preventing him from getting the time he may need to heal. Remember... any tactic that a Hero may use... villains and criminals are likely to use too (such as team tactics).

It was situations like this... where my group would jump into fights with 3 or more to 1 odds against them (mostly small time punks and thugs) where we realized that Super Regeneration wasn't working as it should. Yes, the Tank of the group would draw 75% of the fire... and could resist most of such damage due to high AR and/or lots of SDC, but even the 25% that didn't go after him was enough to overpower the character(s) with Super Regeneration who waded into combat thinking that the power would heal them fast enough to take out their opponents before they were taken out. Sadly... all too often the Super Regeneration character was the first to fall... often falling hard (pushed to close to -PE Hit Points) before the first round of combat was finished. Sometimes the thugs would turn their attention to someone else before he was reduced below -PE Hit Points, giving him a chance to recover... but this only happened until he recovered and joined the fight again... at which point the thugs continued to shoot him until they were sure such characters were actually dead (below -PE Hit Points). When this proved to be a common trend (the Super Regeneration character being the first to die) despite variations of such battles (some with fewer opponents... some with only an equal number of equal powered villains)... we realized something was seriously off with the power.
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Cr'Imson
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Cr'Imson »

Razorwing wrote:As for the example... who says it was specifically designed for him? Isn't it standard SWAT tactics to set up a kill zone where they can take out an opponent (hero, vigilante or villain) quickly. It could just as easily be a gang of criminals, henchmen or even a group of villains. If Super Regeneration can't keep a character alive for more than 2 minutes against a single first level villain... how is he going to survive taking on a group of thugs... or escape from cops intent on bringing him down? Especially if there are enough of them to keep dealing enough damage that he can't avoid or escape from? The point is that there will come a time when the character can't call "TIME OUT" to take a few minutes to heal... especially if there are more opponents than there are heroes in the fight. Sure, most may gang up on the huge armored guy that their bullets are bouncing off of... but a few are likely to see the guy hiding in the back and think "Easy Prey" and will gang up on him too... preventing him from getting the time he may need to heal. Remember... any tactic that a Hero may use... villains and criminals are likely to use too (such as team tactics).

Apply that to other characters with only one Super Power. (As you want to only consider a character with Super Regeneration vs. X Super Power, in a deathtrap.) How many stack up? What is the base character's level, race, stats and skills?



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Axelmania
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Axelmania »

Razorwing wrote:Characters in the game only have a limited number of Super Powers. Spending two of them, a Major Power and a Minor Power on healing is a waste... at least in the view of most people I've played with over the last 20 years. Why waste one of a limited number of powers to get a negligible increase in another. Is that +2 really worth spending an extra power on when one could get something like an energy blast... improved stats... various enhanced movements (fast running, flight, leaping)... enhanced senses... immunity/impervious to various specific attacks... and any number of utility powers.

Is really the best option a character has... to take a minor power to get a slight improvement for a weak major power?


1d6>1d6+2 is not a negligible increase, that's a 4/7 (more than 50%) increase (3.5>5.5) in average healing. More importantly, it TRIPLES the minimum amount you heal per melee round, even if the maximum is only increase by 1/3.

This is all assuming HU2p74's ruling on Alter Metabolism / Healing Factor /Immortality applies to other powers which increase healing. RAW I'm not sure it does. Perhaps some Rifter errata addressed this?

Cr'Imson wrote:Healing Factor would be the base power (including all other bonuses gained from that power). Super Regeneration would add +2 to HF's rate of healing

The base power is the best rate. HF isn't the best.
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by VR Dragon »

Immortality, Super Regeneration, and Ex: PE. A good combo for living well.

Or Immortality, Super Regeneration and Multiple Lives.

Cockroach.

Or I like Invulnerability, SN-PS and Super Regeneration. Little can hurt you, if it does then its only a small amount and then you get over that quickly.
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by dreicunan »

@Cr'Imson: Someday, I hope that you learn how to discuss things with people without resorting to name-calling and insults; it does nothing to strengthen your case.

To everyone who is arguing that super-regeneration prevents death due to massive damage unless decapitation, brain destruction, or atomization or being blown to bits takes place; I'd suggest that you are missing that the description merely states that those states make regeneration impossible. Nowhere does it state that they are the only conditions that can kill the character. Since the power doesn't actually state that those are the only ways that the character can die, then that means the character is still vulnerable to death due to HP being reduced below 0-PE, just like anyone else.

Perhaps the intention was for those states listed to be the only ways that the character could die. If that were the case, then of course the power would need nothing else, as that would mean that the character was also immune to death from suffocation, starvation, dehydration, and old age, as well as any other potential source of death that was not one of the ways listed for the character to die. Since that isn't the case, the fact that healing factor does more to contribute to a character making it to the end of a given fight than super-regeneration doesn't seem right.
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by Nightmask »

dreicunan wrote:@Cr'Imson: Someday, I hope that you learn how to discuss things with people without resorting to name-calling and insults; it does nothing to strengthen your case.

To everyone who is arguing that super-regeneration prevents death due to massive damage unless decapitation, brain destruction, or atomization or being blown to bits takes place; I'd suggest that you are missing that the description merely states that those states make regeneration impossible. Nowhere does it state that they are the only conditions that can kill the character. Since the power doesn't actually state that those are the only ways that the character can die, then that means the character is still vulnerable to death due to HP being reduced below 0-PE, just like anyone else.

Perhaps the intention was for those states listed to be the only ways that the character could die. If that were the case, then of course the power would need nothing else, as that would mean that the character was also immune to death from suffocation, starvation, dehydration, and old age, as well as any other potential source of death that was not one of the ways listed for the character to die. Since that isn't the case, the fact that healing factor does more to contribute to a character making it to the end of a given fight than super-regeneration doesn't seem right.


Problem is it's ridiculous to think someone with such incredible regenerative abilities would die just like everyone else by being reduced to negative HP, it would make the other text completely unnecessary since those things would kill anyone else as well. The only reason to have those restrictions listed is if death like everyone else has to worry about from negative HP no longer applies to them, it's simply not logical to list those when they die like everyone else from negative HP. Logically death from simply going into negative HP no longer applies and the given restrictions for what can kill them are what applies to them.
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Re: Super Regeneration vs. Healing Factor

Unread post by dreicunan »

Nightmask wrote:
dreicunan wrote:@Cr'Imson: Someday, I hope that you learn how to discuss things with people without resorting to name-calling and insults; it does nothing to strengthen your case.

To everyone who is arguing that super-regeneration prevents death due to massive damage unless decapitation, brain destruction, or atomization or being blown to bits takes place; I'd suggest that you are missing that the description merely states that those states make regeneration impossible. Nowhere does it state that they are the only conditions that can kill the character. Since the power doesn't actually state that those are the only ways that the character can die, then that means the character is still vulnerable to death due to HP being reduced below 0-PE, just like anyone else.

Perhaps the intention was for those states listed to be the only ways that the character could die. If that were the case, then of course the power would need nothing else, as that would mean that the character was also immune to death from suffocation, starvation, dehydration, and old age, as well as any other potential source of death that was not one of the ways listed for the character to die. Since that isn't the case, the fact that healing factor does more to contribute to a character making it to the end of a given fight than super-regeneration doesn't seem right.


Problem is it's ridiculous to think someone with such incredible regenerative abilities would die just like everyone else by being reduced to negative HP, it would make the other text completely unnecessary since those things would kill anyone else as well. The only reason to have those restrictions listed is if death like everyone else has to worry about from negative HP no longer applies to them, it's simply not logical to list those when they die like everyone else from negative HP. Logically death from simply going into negative HP no longer applies and the given restrictions for what can kill them are what applies to them.

It might seem ridiculous, yet the other powers that give one an increased ability to survive damage below zero go out of their way to make it clear that they grant such an ability. After all, nothing about 90% brain destruction necessitates that a character be reduced below 0 hp; you could still be in positive hp, actually. Thus, however ridiculous it seems that the power does not grant increased ability to survive damage below 0 hp, as written that is how the power works.
Axelmania wrote:You of course, being the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not.
Declared the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not by Axelmania on 5.11.19.
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