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 Post subject: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:16 pm
  

Wanderer

Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:49 am
Posts: 96
So in Century Station, Haven is a super hero with an 84 PS!?!

I cannot figure out how it is that high? Supernatural Str+tremendous Str puts it around +45, assuming his base Str was 20 from Mystic Transformation, that still falls around 20 short. Where did it come from?

I


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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:43 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
I'd say they fudged some but let's see (And I'm assuming max numbers here just cause), he's got a PS of 9, Bestowed Abilities gives him 2D6 so +12, Supernatural Strength gives 30 + 2d6 so + 42, but he's also a Mega hero and it notes he has Tremendous Strength which is +20, so we're left with 83 which is what my copy shows his strength at.


Daniel Stoker

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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:26 am
  

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Palladin

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Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
Don't forget, that while it seems to be the case, palladium NPCs do not always adhere to RAW.

The forums are littered with NPCs from the books that break the rules for their own creation. Multiple APS, taking powers more than once, such as that. I think there's a character that can run Mach2, because he's taken sonic speed twice, even though it's forbidden by RAW. Other such things.

It's been a while since they've cycled through but they're out there if you look.

Wait till you get to Alpha Prime

Major:
Super Energy Expulsion: Energy
Super Energy Expulsion: Light
Sconic Flight
Supernatrural Strength

Minor:
Resistant to Energy
Bent Light
Control Static Electricity
Energy Absorption
Super Vision (All, that's like 4 or 5 minors)
Self-Regeneration of Outer Skin
Recreate Outer Skin
Shed Energy Containment Outer Skin
Fly at Light Speed
Reforming After Complete Dissipation

That's a pretty hefty number of powers. Of which the Alien catagory just doesn't remotely cover.

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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:55 am
  

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Palladin

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Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
Kelvin from Century Station Springs to mind as well. page 190
Uses APS Fire and APS Ice at the same time.
While HU2: page 74,literally cites that combo and says it's impossible.

It goes on further on the same page to say you specifically can't use two APS powers at the same time. You have to switch one on. Use powers, switch it off, switch on the 'other' APS, and use a power (And turning them on/off takes an action)

Etc etc etc. "Speed Metal" Also springs to mind. APS Metal should cut the Sonic speed in half but the book lets him have both.

Page 74 also states: Two powers that alter the characters physical structure can not be used simultaneously. This includes such physical altering powers as Growth, Shrink, Bio-Armor, Body Weapons,
Alter Limbs, Alter Facial Features & Physical Stature, Animal Metamorphosis, Lycanthropy, Multiple Beings/Selves, Tentacles, Stretching, and all Altered Physical Structure powers.

While I'm fairly sure NPCs often do so in the books.

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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:11 am
  

Wanderer

Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:49 am
Posts: 96
Daniel Stoker wrote:
I'd say they fudged some but let's see (And I'm assuming max numbers here just cause), he's got a PS of 9, Bestowed Abilities gives him 2D6 so +12, Supernatural Strength gives 30 + 2d6 so + 42, but he's also a Mega hero and it notes he has Tremendous Strength which is +20, so we're left with 83 which is what my copy shows his strength at.


Daniel Stoker


Ah, right, I had supernatural Strength wrong in my head, I thought it was +20. Cool, thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:40 am
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
NP! But yeah PJ is also right that a lot of the time they also fudge stuff with NPC's.


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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:38 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
Posts: 5393
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
I think there's a character that can run Mach2, because he's taken sonic speed twice, even though it's forbidden by RAW.

I can't remember where it says you can't take super-speeds twice.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Wait till you get to Alpha Prime

Major:
Super Energy Expulsion: Energy
Super Energy Expulsion: Light
Sconic Flight
Supernatrural Strength

Minor:
Resistant to Energy
Bent Light
Control Static Electricity
Energy Absorption
Super Vision (All, that's like 4 or 5 minors)
Self-Regeneration of Outer Skin
Recreate Outer Skin
Shed Energy Containment Outer Skin
Fly at Light Speed
Reforming After Complete Dissipation

That's a pretty hefty number of powers. Of which the Alien catagory just doesn't remotely cover.

Isn't that just using the standard Bhlaze powers from Skraypers? That's like complaining Splugorth don't comply 100% to random gen alien intelligence tables or gargoyles don't comply 100% to random gen supernatural predator tables.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Kelvin from Century Station Springs to mind as well. page 190
Uses APS Fire and APS Ice at the same time.
While HU2: page 74,literally cites that combo and says it's impossible.

It goes on further on the same page to say you specifically can't use two APS powers at the same time. You have to switch one on. Use powers, switch it off, switch on the 'other' APS, and use a power (And turning them on/off takes an action)

Part of the reason I never really had a problem with Kelvin is that unlike stuff like APS Light/Shadow/Plasma/Electricity/Metal, the writeup for APS Fire "Fire Aura" and "Ice Plating". It doesn't sound like it necessarily does much to your body at all. Even though you're right that fire is anAPS powers, they don't really seems to fit the "alter" mechanics. You can still punch someone in APS Fire form for example, they don't literally become fire.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Etc etc etc. "Speed Metal" Also springs to mind. APS Metal should cut the Sonic speed in half but the book lets him have both.

I thought that it actually noted he moves at 1/2 mach due to that.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Page 74 also states: Two powers that alter the characters physical structure can not be used simultaneously. This includes such physical altering powers as Growth, Shrink, Bio-Armor, Body Weapons,
Alter Limbs, Alter Facial Features & Physical Stature, Animal Metamorphosis, Lycanthropy, Multiple Beings/Selves, Tentacles, Stretching, and all Altered Physical Structure powers.

While I'm fairly sure NPCs often do so in the books.

The only example I can remember is this native american warrior woman (I think on Bombshell + Palladium's team but I forget her name) who had Body Weapons she made out of her Bio-Armor... which while I agree is not RAW, there seems to be 0% conceptual problems with it compared to obvious problems like using APS Water and APS Stone at the same time.

I don't really see a problem with using Shrink + APS Metal at the same time either. Pg 74's wording always seemed way too broad.


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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:25 am
  

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Palladin

Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:11 am
Posts: 8439
Location: Northern Gun
Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
I think there's a character that can run Mach2, because he's taken sonic speed twice, even though it's forbidden by RAW.

I can't remember where it says you can't take super-speeds twice.


The rules distinctly say you can't get the same power twice, unless it's the one giving extra arms.

Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Wait till you get to Alpha Prime

Major:
Super Energy Expulsion: Energy
Super Energy Expulsion: Light
Sconic Flight
Supernatrural Strength

Minor:
Resistant to Energy
Bent Light
Control Static Electricity
Energy Absorption
Super Vision (All, that's like 4 or 5 minors)
Self-Regeneration of Outer Skin
Recreate Outer Skin
Shed Energy Containment Outer Skin
Fly at Light Speed
Reforming After Complete Dissipation

That's a pretty hefty number of powers. Of which the Alien catagory just doesn't remotely cover.

Isn't that just using the standard Bhlaze powers from Skraypers? That's like complaining Splugorth don't comply 100% to random gen alien intelligence tables or gargoyles don't comply 100% to random gen supernatural predator tables.


By HU rules and she's in an HU Suppliment and it came out BEFORE Skraypers, she has a huge amount of powers and no way to justify them. I.E. she's not an Alien by the book.

Axelmania wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Kelvin from Century Station Springs to mind as well. page 190
Uses APS Fire and APS Ice at the same time.
While HU2: page 74,literally cites that combo and says it's impossible.

It goes on further on the same page to say you specifically can't use two APS powers at the same time. You have to switch one on. Use powers, switch it off, switch on the 'other' APS, and use a power (And turning them on/off takes an action)

Part of the reason I never really had a problem with Kelvin is that unlike stuff like APS Light/Shadow/Plasma/Electricity/Metal, the writeup for APS Fire "Fire Aura" and "Ice Plating". It doesn't sound like it necessarily does much to your body at all. Even though you're right that fire is anAPS powers, they don't really seems to fit the "alter" mechanics. You can still punch someone in APS Fire form for example, they don't literally become fire.


You not having a problem with it, isn't the point. The point is the rules say one thing, and the char in question directly contradicts the rule, both indirectly (Can't have two APS powers on at once) and DIRECTLY as "Fire and Ice" were listed specifically as not being able to work together.

Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Etc etc etc. "Speed Metal" Also springs to mind. APS Metal should cut the Sonic speed in half but the book lets him have both.

I thought that it actually noted he moves at 1/2 mach due to that.


Nope. The only notation he has is 'special' under speed, and the write up is clear that he's moving at sonic speeds

Axelmania wrote:


Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Page 74 also states: Two powers that alter the characters physical structure can not be used simultaneously. This includes such physical altering powers as Growth, Shrink, Bio-Armor, Body Weapons,
Alter Limbs, Alter Facial Features & Physical Stature, Animal Metamorphosis, Lycanthropy, Multiple Beings/Selves, Tentacles, Stretching, and all Altered Physical Structure powers.

While I'm fairly sure NPCs often do so in the books.

The only example I can remember is this native american warrior woman (I think on Bombshell + Palladium's team but I forget her name) who had Body Weapons she made out of her Bio-Armor... which while I agree is not RAW, there seems to be 0% conceptual problems with it compared to obvious problems like using APS Water and APS Stone at the same time.

I don't really see a problem with using Shrink + APS Metal at the same time either. Pg 74's wording always seemed way too broad.


Again. YOU Not having a problem with it isn't the point being made. The point being made is that Palladium doesn't hold true to their own rules, for characters, and powers, if they don't feel like it.
Heck I might agree with you on some of the above, but that's not the point.

Again. The point was "Palladium routinely breaks it's own rules when it feels like. "

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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:24 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
Posts: 5393
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
The rules distinctly say you can't get the same power twice, unless it's the one giving extra arms.

If you're referring to HU2p226 "if the same power is rolled a second time, ignore it, and roll again" would technically only apply if you are ROLLING random abilities, not selecting them.

Interestingly, that also for some reason says that "Energy Resistance" and "Invulnerability" are somehow incompatible and can be re-rolled, but pg 231 mentions ER protects against pyrokinesis/electrokinesis and 278 says "vulnerable to psionics" (full effect) so it would probably be pretty useful. Although it says "energy type magic" does no damage, it doesn't mention that for "energy type psionics". Perhaps that was intended but accidentally left out?

Am I missing something on pg 74 that prohibits, for example, taking Multiple Lives twice?

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
By HU rules and she's in an HU Suppliment and it came out BEFORE Skraypers

I have 1st printings of both books: Skraypers came out May 1998 (cover says "A sourcebook for Rifts and Heroes Unlimited") and Century Station came out February 2000.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
she has a huge amount of powers and no way to justify them. I.E. she's not an Alien by the book.

There are probably other cases like that in Aliens Unlimited.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
You not having a problem with it, isn't the point. The point is the rules say one thing, and the char in question directly contradicts the rule, both indirectly (Can't have two APS powers on at once) and DIRECTLY as "Fire and Ice" were listed specifically as not being able to work together.

I think Coffin was aware he was explicitly introducing a new rule for Kelvin, 190 says he "mastered the art" and even has a "Special Combat Note" (albeit enjoying "both" ARs doesn't really seem to benefit him in any way since both are 14 and they don't even appear to stack... and there doesn't seem to be any clear way to determine whether bullets bounce off or get burned up...

Century Station has new rules for the Halcyon Effect, maybe Kelvin is enjoying some other kind of unexplained rule?

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
The only notation he has is 'special' under speed, and the write up is clear that he's moving at sonic speeds

Is it? Paragraph 2 says "they make him ho like really fast (which is pretty cool)" which I think could still accurately describe going 350mph.

More of a concern with him is why he has Supernatural PS instead of Superhuman PS, and why APS Metal gives him +30 to his PS when HU2p247 only gives a bonus between 22 and 28.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
The point was "Palladium routinely breaks it's own rules when it feels like.

A valid way to perceive it, although another valid way might be "they have secret rules they will never show us and some NPCs abide by those and perhaps we will learn about them in some future world book, but probably not".


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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:23 am
  

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Palladin

Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:11 am
Posts: 8439
Location: Northern Gun
Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
The rules distinctly say you can't get the same power twice, unless it's the one giving extra arms.

If you're referring to HU2p226 "if the same power is rolled a second time, ignore it, and roll again" would technically only apply if you are ROLLING random abilities, not selecting them.

Interestingly, that also for some reason says that "Energy Resistance" and "Invulnerability" are somehow incompatible and can be re-rolled, but pg 231 mentions ER protects against pyrokinesis/electrokinesis and 278 says "vulnerable to psionics" (full effect) so it would probably be pretty useful. Although it says "energy type magic" does no damage, it doesn't mention that for "energy type psionics". Perhaps that was intended but accidentally left out?

Am I missing something on pg 74 that prohibits, for example, taking Multiple Lives twice?

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
By HU rules and she's in an HU Suppliment and it came out BEFORE Skraypers

I have 1st printings of both books: Skraypers came out May 1998 (cover says "A sourcebook for Rifts and Heroes Unlimited") and Century Station came out February 2000.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
she has a huge amount of powers and no way to justify them. I.E. she's not an Alien by the book.

There are probably other cases like that in Aliens Unlimited.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
You not having a problem with it, isn't the point. The point is the rules say one thing, and the char in question directly contradicts the rule, both indirectly (Can't have two APS powers on at once) and DIRECTLY as "Fire and Ice" were listed specifically as not being able to work together.

I think Coffin was aware he was explicitly introducing a new rule for Kelvin, 190 says he "mastered the art" and even has a "Special Combat Note" (albeit enjoying "both" ARs doesn't really seem to benefit him in any way since both are 14 and they don't even appear to stack... and there doesn't seem to be any clear way to determine whether bullets bounce off or get burned up...

Century Station has new rules for the Halcyon Effect, maybe Kelvin is enjoying some other kind of unexplained rule?

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
The only notation he has is 'special' under speed, and the write up is clear that he's moving at sonic speeds

Is it? Paragraph 2 says "they make him ho like really fast (which is pretty cool)" which I think could still accurately describe going 350mph.

More of a concern with him is why he has Supernatural PS instead of Superhuman PS, and why APS Metal gives him +30 to his PS when HU2p247 only gives a bonus between 22 and 28.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
The point was "Palladium routinely breaks it's own rules when it feels like.

A valid way to perceive it, although another valid way might be "they have secret rules they will never show us and some NPCs abide by those and perhaps we will learn about them in some future world book, but probably not".


I was going to reply to the points, but it's pretty clear they're just trolling.

"...... palladium has.... secret rules... that they never show us..... and some NPC's abide by those.... and perhaps we'll learn about palladium's secret rules for NPCS in the future"

Ok.. That's it. I think it's pretty clear you're just arguing to argue and no need to respond to such buffoonery.

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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:30 am
  

Wanderer

Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:49 am
Posts: 96
Axelmania wrote:
A valid way to perceive it, although another valid way might be "they have secret rules they will never show us and some NPCs abide by those and perhaps we will learn about them in some future world book, but probably not".


I doubt that is the case. I think its clear that some of the rules don't make a lot of sense, and when a writer comes up against those rules, they ignore them. Like Bio Armor not stacking with Body Weaponry...why? What's the point? Ditto with different APS...if you can make some sort of rationale for them, why not? There is a mud character built from APS water and APS sand(?) to create a new form.

Exception based rules create these problems, and I think the no stacking was an attempt at doing away with the possibilities of inconsistencies, but when the source material ignores it, why should players abide? In most cases, it isn't like the combo gives that big of an improvement.


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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:12 pm
  

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Knight

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Location: Nashville.....ish....
Most things go back to the KS thought process of it the rule doesn't work for what you want house rule it to fit. You can love that or hate that, but PB has never really fit a extremely rigid outline for what is allowed and not.

Take a quick look at the Centurions, a big chuck are "illegal" characters.

Apex-Mega Super Soldier, with lots of gear. Fairly legal, if you throw in PU2, which was not out when CS came out, but his PS seems a wee bit on the hide side (I did not do the math to see if it is legal, just seems high).

Haven-already covered.

Spartucus-Robot, with a build tab that is way out there, plus Super Natural PS, which I don't remember being book available, but I could be wrong. Basically a Mega for a class HU2 says not to make into a Mega.

Alpha Prime-already covered, basically fits as a Bhlaze, if not as a buildable book alien.

Whiz Kid-A full Analytical Genius with the addition of something resembling Imbued from PU2, or even SUper Invention sort of thrown in. Again, PU2 wasn't out yet.

Psynapse-Psychic, seems fairly book rule doable, but I'm not going to count powers and ISP. Does have a nice super suit thrown in.

Durandal-Enchanted Weapon Mega, seems book buildabe.

Iron Lotus-Ancient Master, plus Immortality. Basically a Mega for a class that HU2 says no to being a Mega.

Leviathan-Mutant with Continuous Mutation that accounts for the extra powers. Pretty much buildable from my look.


So out of a 9 member team a good half or more are not book legal. I would allow them all in my game because the variations make sense for the character and the team, but RAW they don't fit. That is the good and the bad of PB.

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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:22 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Honestly HU (especially anything Bill Coffin wrote) is an exercise in "creative license"
Especially for NPCs
Players have rules because you get limits to make characters.
NPCs don't because you don't have to roll them up. They can, do and should have what ever the plot says they have. I get annoyed when people complain that "that's not fair" why? Did you really think you should be able to make and play anything in the game world, straight out of the box with no adjustments as a PC?
Why?
You can't roll up a "President of the United States" in HU.
Or a Private First Class.
Or a news reporter
Or a scientist
Or a doctor
Or a kid
Or a shoe salesman
Or a blacksmith
Or a religion teacher

So since you can't roll up 99.999% of the population of the planet why is it that people get bent out of shape that they can't roll up a couple of the NPCs?
It's bizarre.

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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:04 am
  

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Palladin

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Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
You can make those characters. Just choose the proper educational level and give them the skills that fit with out a super power category, as they're not super heroes.

But the first part of your post I generally agree with. The rules are there to keep players from getting too stupid with stuff. The creators and NPCs aren't going to be held to 'book legal' rules. The NPCs are what ever they need to be to be challenging for the players as needed. Adjust up or down to fit your group. Change a power here or there, to throw them for a loop. You'll usually have a player that's read the book. Change a few things and suddenly they don't know what they're dealing with.

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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:06 am
  

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Palladin

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Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
Small addon to the above.

I think the educational levels are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of date, and HU should have OCCs like the other systems, and the Educational levels if you're going to keep them, need some major updating.

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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:46 am
  

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Adventurer

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Comment: Rifter Contributer 79, 81,82,83,84
I'd definitely be up for revamping the education packages! Anyone else interested?

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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:41 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
You also need to REALLY update the skills, lets be honest the computer ones alone are pretty bad but we need to add more or generalize them and pick more specific 'focuses' for them.


Daniel Stoker

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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:05 pm
  

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Monk

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Small addon to the above.

I think the educational levels are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of date, and HU should have OCCs like the other systems, and the Educational levels if you're going to keep them, need some major updating.


Other way, personally. I think OCC's should be done away with entirely and an updated Education/MOS system used for everything. Unique OCC's still work through unique Skill programs that only a certain background gets to access.

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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:52 pm
  

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Palladium Books® Freelance Writer

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Location: LaPorte, In USA
Comment: The greatest part of the writer's time is spent in reading, in order to write: a man will turn over half a library to make one book. - Samuel Johnson, 1775
Erick Wujick didn't even use rules to create the TMNT. I asked him and he said NO! Because the turtles have to be bad xxx. So if you the
player want to make a particular character and the G.M. approves then ignore the rules! This is a Palladium Books motto. Kevin speaks it all
the time. Rules are always going to change. Glaciator from VU 1 first edition has APS-Ice and Growth. HU 2nd edition comes out and it says
the power combo is illegal. The Blhaze as mentioned before from Skyrapers is not an Alien Unlimited Alien because they're not from HU
Universe but the same universe as Phase World, but the characters can be Rifted in. Look at the Alien Races from both Galaxy Guide and
Aliens Unlimited (1st and Revised) you will find some don't match the rules that Kevin and Waybe Breaux created. Bill Coffin nototicous
ignores the rules in both Century Station and Galaxy Guide. People the rules are guideline but they are also meant to be flexiable, Don't like
the rule don't use it. It's that simple. Make the character and game that you and your players can all enjoy and have fun. And by the way,
the various HU manuscripts I turned in (who knows if anything will come of them) also have NPC with rule bending abilities and powers.
However, everyone stats are legit (I actually rolled them all up) and the results where final, even if I didn't like the end result.


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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:04 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
You can make those characters. Just choose the proper educational level and give them the skills that fit with out a super power category, as they're not super heroes.

But the first part of your post I generally agree with. The rules are there to keep players from getting too stupid with stuff. The creators and NPCs aren't going to be held to 'book legal' rules. The NPCs are what ever they need to be to be challenging for the players as needed. Adjust up or down to fit your group. Change a power here or there, to throw them for a loop. You'll usually have a player that's read the book. Change a few things and suddenly they don't know what they're dealing with.

Nope your using a house rule there :D
Please show me where the rules allow you to do that.
Go ahead, I'll wait :lol:
Because there Isn't a way, by the rules, to just roll up a person with out a power category per-se

And you can't roll up children either. Sorry all characters are adults with 3d6 for all stats

Nor can you take skills like Lore: Religion or Dentistry or Blacksmith or professional skill: Shoe Salesman

Also the rules do not allow for an income level of "PotUS"

So once again...
You can't roll up the world using the rules. You can if you use house rules sure...
…but then your not using the RAW and at that point complaining that you can't play this hero over here because it uses house rules is more than a touch hypocritcal.

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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:57 am
  

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Comment: Rifter Contributer 79, 81,82,83,84
Reagren just ended this conversation, lol.

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Last edited by zerombr on Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:36 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
eliakon wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
You can make those characters. Just choose the proper educational level and give them the skills that fit with out a super power category, as they're not super heroes.

But the first part of your post I generally agree with. The rules are there to keep players from getting too stupid with stuff. The creators and NPCs aren't going to be held to 'book legal' rules. The NPCs are what ever they need to be to be challenging for the players as needed. Adjust up or down to fit your group. Change a power here or there, to throw them for a loop. You'll usually have a player that's read the book. Change a few things and suddenly they don't know what they're dealing with.

Nope your using a house rule there :D
Please show me where the rules allow you to do that.
Go ahead, I'll wait :lol:
Because there Isn't a way, by the rules, to just roll up a person with out a power category per-se

And you can't roll up children either. Sorry all characters are adults with 3d6 for all stats

Nor can you take skills like Lore: Religion or Dentistry or Blacksmith or professional skill: Shoe Salesman

Also the rules do not allow for an income level of "PotUS"

So once again...
You can't roll up the world using the rules. You can if you use house rules sure...
…but then your not using the RAW and at that point complaining that you can't play this hero over here because it uses house rules is more than a touch hypocritcal.


The rules don't say 'Water is wet' either, or tell you the air speed velocity of a european swallow, but water's still wet and the swallow still flies. You're trying for a 'gotcha' but it's a false argument to start with. You roll up normal people as normal people. The Education tables allows you to do this. They don't have a power category because they're not super powered.

As for children. They're covered in one of the books, but I forget where, but then I don't play children as player chars. Not my thing.

Dentistry and Blacksmithing can be made using medical skills and blacksmithing skills, and one doesn't need a professional skill Shoe Salesman. Unless in your games you're rolling to exactly measure someone's shoe for a boot.

The income level for the PotUS is a simple google search away (Since 2001, the president's annual salary has been $400,000, along with a: $50,000 expense allowance; $100,000 nontaxable travel account, and $19,000 entertainment account.) Took me 1 second to type "POTUS Pay"

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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:43 pm
  

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
The rules allow for a higher income than POTUS, actually. Heroes Unlimited Game Masters Guide has a list of day jobs for heros, their salaries and required skills. You can legally start as the president of a Mega-Corpration with an annual salary of 100+ million. HU GMG page 47/48. So being Bruce Wayne/Tony Stark at level 1 is completely legal.

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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:38 pm
  

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My point with the Centurions was just that PCs can be built with a similar viewpoint. If you want an effect or combination that is book illegal, but makes sense, or is just cool it will fit in my game, but another table may not let half the NPCS out there ride as is, and never think of a similar PC.

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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:09 am
  

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RockJock wrote:
My point with the Centurions was just that PCs can be built with a similar viewpoint. If you want an effect or combination that is book illegal, but makes sense, or is just cool it will fit in my game, but another table may not let half the NPCS out there ride as is, and never think of a similar PC.


Which begs the question, why have those limitations in the first place? What interest do they serve? If they are no longer needed, why do we still have them?

IMHO, it's that KS wrote them a bajillion years ago then people realized they weren't necessary but KS seems (apparently) unable to actually update and revise material (at least not back when HU2 came out) to just take the restrictions out of the book. Obviously, I could be wrong.

Regardless, they seem like unnecessary restrictions...I can't even tell what purpose they serve (the illegal npcs don't seem particularly ridiculous or anything and their combos seem both comic-genre fitting and not particularly overpowered).


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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:03 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
Kevin addresses this more than once. He envisions HU as a lower powered super's game. A 'Thinking man's game'.
The restrictions are in place to partially neuter power levels. (The power levels being pretty lowish to start with.)

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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:50 pm
  

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Pepsi, I tend to agree with you on the power level thing. The problem with that is HU today has evolved. CS isn't a particularly low level game. Nothing using Immortal Godlings, and similar really sticks with low power level. HU still lets you play a low level game, but it has to be consciously selected for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:53 am
  

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Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
Well CS has some high level bad guys (and good guys) but that's because many of the bad guys are meant to give challenge to an entire team of PC's.

More over if you actually start at level 1.. it's going to be pretty low level.

But my over all point was more "HU even at it's HIGHEST LEVEL" would get it's butt handed to it by C and D list Marvel or DC heroes. And there's no earthly WAY to make B or A list heroes with HU.

Not doing conversions, but for example, There's no way you 'could' approximate the power level of superman. (And I don't feel bad using his name. It's in the HU book)

Now most will go "Ok well yeah. Superman, Thor, Hulk, those are the top of the top A listers"

But you can't approximate anything close to most ANY A list marvel or DC hero, or B list for that matter.

You can build Homages. "Oh this guy is like _____ char, from... 1920, you know before 80 years of power evolution" or "This char is some what like____ Char, but a lot, LOT weaker"

Kevin says this is on purpose. He didn't want planet punchers as player characters. He wanted player characters to have to think their way out of problems and not just power through. Now gamers being.... gamers. People are going to work the math to get the best they can out of the book. Min maxing, purpose builds, twinking, scouring dozens of books to pick the exact combo of skills and powers to tweek and get the very best out of everything etc.

But yeah the 'power restriction's Don't stack APS, or other alter powers, can't take the same powers twice, etc, are there on purpose to help keep it a low power 'thinking man's game'. Vs just one alien in blue solving all the problems in half a second.

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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:54 am
  

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Pepsi Jedi wrote:
But my over all point was more "HU even at it's HIGHEST LEVEL" would get it's butt handed to it by C and D list Marvel or DC heroes. And there's no earthly WAY to make B or A list heroes with HU.

Not doing conversions, but for example, There's no way you 'could' approximate the power level of superman. (And I don't feel bad using his name. It's in the HU book)


Not doing conversions either, but help me out here: say we start with the HU book; first power category is ‘Alien’, take Artificial Life Form and Airless Environment, take three major powers to get Invulnerability and Sonic Flight and Gravity Manipulation: so, what, hundred-ton feats of superstrength, nightvision and telescopic vision, speeding-bullet flight, immunity to conventional weapons, grab bag of gravitic tricks? I’ll of course grant that he’s not A-list, and you can of course argue that he’s not B-list; but does he really get his butt handed to him, and not the reverse, by the C-list and D-list types?

Or let’s open supplements and go for a ‘blasty’ theme; maybe take a major power like APS Energy, a minor power like Immunity to High-Speed Kinetic Attacks, and a major power like Energy Absorption or Copy Energy Pattern: so, again, figure out how fast he can zip around, and how big a zap he’s packing, and what stuff he can casually ignore: how would he do against D-list types?

(Same question if we instead go with majors like Spin At High Velocity and Zombie Flesh, plus a minor like Immune To Energy And Electricity; I’d also like to go off in some other directions, but I’d kind of like to start here: do you figure he’d routinely get his butt handed to him by C-listers and D-listers, and never the other way around?)


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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:25 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
In short, they'd get pwnd by Marvel or DC, C and D list heroes and villains.

Not putting Superman in HU stats at all but superman has been seen lifting over 200 Quintillion Tons, with his left hand, with his right hand behind his back. I don't even want to do the math on what level strength that would be in HU. lol

Now for sure he's an A lister and one of the tops.

But Even heroes like spiderman require 5 or 6 times the amount of powers that HU offers any one human. (That's with out any tech suits)

Cyclops has an optic blast that can blow small planets apart at full power. Not sure I'd rank him A list. he's a long running member of the Xmen but in a list of "Top 10 strongest Marvel chars" Noone's putting Cyclops on the list. he wouldn't make the top 50 with out the Phenoix force.

Now it could easily be debatable where people would rank comic heroes as to "A" list or "B" List or "C" list or "D" list, but the point holds.

For HU char's to out do Marvel or DC comic chars, they have to be pretty far down the chain. Could a HU Mega hero beat up.... Beak from the Xmen? Yeah, probably. Could he or she take on Skin? Probably, but the Cuccos? No way. Heck Ice Man, alone, and half asleep could face palm the strongest HU Char you could possibly make (Granted he's an Omega Level mutant, but most people don't think of him that way).

And MOST marvel and DC heroes can't even be replicated RAW with HU. too many powers. As noted, Spiderman alone takes 3 Majors and 15 to 18 miniors, and two or three power categories to get close to (( Not converting. Just pointing out how much it would TAKE to convert him)).

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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:17 pm
  

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Pepsi Jedi wrote:
In short, they'd get pwnd by Marvel or DC, C and D list heroes and villains.


Spell it out for me.

You brought up Cyclops in reply, saying: “Not sure I'd rank him A list. he's a long running member of the Xmen but in a list of "Top 10 strongest Marvel chars" Noone's putting Cyclops on the list. he wouldn't make the top 50 with out the Phenoix force. Now it could easily be debatable where people would rank comic heroes as to "A" list or "B" List or "C" list or "D" list, but the point holds.”

Okay: make that point.

Cyclops versus the invulnerable guy who has sonic flight and gravity powers. Cyclops versus the zapper who zips around while immune to various energy attacks and various kinetic attacks. Cyclops versus the spinner with zombie flesh and a minor power. What happens? Do you figure that he, as you say, would soon have pwnd them?


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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:08 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
Well as pointed out, his optic blasts are strong enough at full power to cleave small planets in half. So yeah. In general he would. he was brought up more for that power level. As there's nothing in palladium remotely close. Sonic flight and gravity powers are nice, but he tags you once, you're vaporized. If you build a char that's purposefully immune to energy powers you've got a better chance, but still, his power level far eclipses anything HU has or 'can' have. Even at 15th level.

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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:16 pm
  

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Pepsi Jedi wrote:
If you build a char that's purposefully immune to energy powers you've got a better chance,


Well, yeah; that’s exactly what I was shooting for; as you can see, I was thinking of building one of the guys with the “impervious to heat, fire, laser blasts, electricity and other forms of energy” power — or, possibly, with the power to become “impervious” to all but the first 2d4 from a given energy power, thereby gaining an ability to return fire — and building one of the other supers with the power of being “completely impervious to electricity, energy attacks, electricity, radiation, stun, laser and ion weapons”, and building the remaining one with a power where “cold, fire, heat, electricity, lasers, other types of energy” each “do no damage whatsoever!”

Sure, one of them has an APS power, and one can carry around a hundred tons, and one can spin at high speeds; but, like you said, each of them was, purposefully, built to go up against not an A-lister or a B-lister, but a C-lister or D-lister with energy powers.


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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:20 am
  

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Comment: Rifter Contributer 79, 81,82,83,84
You're referring to defensive immunity

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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:08 pm
  

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Quote:
As for children. They're covered in one of the books, but I forget where, but then I don't play children as player chars. Not my thing.


Didn’t Beyond the Supernatural have a normal person class with normal skills you could roll on? I think they had rules for kids.
I think I used them once for some quick roll up normal family members in a scenario.

They also had a victim class for NPCs that weren’t meant to last long.

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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:16 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
hbrika wrote:
Quote:
As for children. They're covered in one of the books, but I forget where, but then I don't play children as player chars. Not my thing.


Didn’t Beyond the Supernatural have a normal person class with normal skills you could roll on? I think they had rules for kids.
I think I used them once for some quick roll up normal family members in a scenario.

They also had a victim class for NPCs that weren’t meant to last long.

Correct, there are kids in BTS.
But not in HU.
You can't legally play a non-super powered child in HU.

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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:09 am
  

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eliakon wrote:
hbrika wrote:
Quote:
As for children. They're covered in one of the books, but I forget where, but then I don't play children as player chars. Not my thing.


Didn’t Beyond the Supernatural have a normal person class with normal skills you could roll on? I think they had rules for kids.
I think I used them once for some quick roll up normal family members in a scenario.

They also had a victim class for NPCs that weren’t meant to last long.

Correct, there are kids in BTS.
But not in HU.
You can't legally play a non-super powered child in HU.


I really don't think that argument is relevant to the discussion of why PCs are limited in ways that NPCs aren't. It's one thing to say the rules represent adults and children have no meaningful combat ability (PB is a very combat focused game). It's whole other thing to say X powers do not work this way, oh wait, here's a ton of characters where X powers DO work that way with no special reason for it.

It would be like in a fantasy game where mages couldn't cast spells wearing armor, but then tons of canon NPCs DID cast spells in armor for no apparent reason. It violates any kind of emersion to have a meta-rule violated in that way with no reasons given. It doubles down when the rule doesn't really serve any particular purpose in the first place. I mean, in a game where your powers are random, forbidding a character from using two powers together, when they may only have two powers and probably had no choice in what they rolled is pretty unnecessarily harsh.


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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:07 am
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Tywyll wrote:
eliakon wrote:
hbrika wrote:
Quote:
As for children. They're covered in one of the books, but I forget where, but then I don't play children as player chars. Not my thing.


Didn’t Beyond the Supernatural have a normal person class with normal skills you could roll on? I think they had rules for kids.
I think I used them once for some quick roll up normal family members in a scenario.

They also had a victim class for NPCs that weren’t meant to last long.

Correct, there are kids in BTS.
But not in HU.
You can't legally play a non-super powered child in HU.


I really don't think that argument is relevant to the discussion of why PCs are limited in ways that NPCs aren't.

On the contrary it cuts to the exact heart of that discussion.
If the argument is that ALL NPCs must only be created via the rules that PCs use...
...then by that standard you are required to remove 99.999999% of all people from the earth. :lol:
I think that might be a bit of a problem.

Tywyll wrote:
It's one thing to say the rules represent adults and children have no meaningful combat ability (PB is a very combat focused game). It's whole other thing to say X powers do not work this way, oh wait, here's a ton of characters where X powers DO work that way with no special reason for it.

Nope. Not in the slightest.
You can't have your cake and eat it to.
Either you get to argue that ALL NPCs must follow ALL the rules, or the NPCs do NOT have to follow ALL the rules.
You don't get to pick and choose which rules they must follow based on which ones suit your personal tastes and then say that those rules are the only ones that count for a universal standard.
I said it before and I will say it again.
If you are not willing to argue that the only valid NPCs are those that can be made with the PC creation rules... then you are not arguing in good faith.
So which is it?
You are insisting on the rules be rewritten to cover all possible creation possibilities for all possible NPCs or do you simply want to be able to have YOUR pcs get the same powers that the major NPCs get to play with? The stuff that if this was Rifts would be listed as "This class is for NPCs Only" anyway?
Because I can't see a legitimate gripe about complaining that it isn't possible to roll up a level 1 character who is as powerful as the most powerful people in the universe.
I just can't sorry.


Tywyll wrote:
It would be like in a fantasy game where mages couldn't cast spells wearing armor, but then tons of canon NPCs DID cast spells in armor for no apparent reason.

Not in the slightest.
Because other than the one or two NPCs who have dual-physical powers (and who are explicitly called out as being non-standard in their write ups) they don't VIOLATE the rules like that. They simply don't follow them.
There is a HUGE difference.
It is more like "Well most mages learn reading and writing to pass on their lore. These guys have bardic knowledge and memorization and a note that they use vocal tradition"

Tywyll wrote:
It violates any kind of emersion to have a meta-rule violated in that way with no reasons given.

Only if you insist that your PCs must be able to do anything that ANY AND ALL NPCs in the game can do.
At level one
Which is manifestly an absurd stance to take for ANY game.

Tywyll wrote:
It doubles down when the rule doesn't really serve any particular purpose in the first place.

No it doubles down on a rule that YOU don't feel serves any purpose. There is a big difference between "A rule I do not like" and "a rule that has no purpose at all"

Tywyll wrote:
I mean, in a game where your powers are random, forbidding a character from using two powers together, when they may only have two powers and probably had no choice in what they rolled is pretty unnecessarily harsh.

And if your GM is such a big jerk that they will punish you for that then you have a bigger problem than that.
No seriously. That is the problem right there. Full Stop
There is a reason you have a GM and that this isn't some computer game run on a hardwired engine with no wiggle room.
That is because the GM is there to handle when things come up.
Like you know... rolling the same power twice, or two mutually contradictory powers, or two powers you can't use at once, or stuff like that.
If your GM is not willing to do that... then that is the problem not the game.
Bad GM. End Of Story.
The rest of the world knows what Rule Zero is and knows how to deal with problems that come up on really low probabilities with out insisting that the mere chance of a super low probability event requires that the rules be tossed out the window to conform to the desires of those who are unwilling to be flexible.

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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:27 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
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Pepsi Jedi wrote:
I was going to reply to the points, but it's pretty clear they're just trolling.

Right, ALL of it was trolling, including my pointing out you were wrong when you claimed Century Station predated Skraypers, right?

Or showing you were wrong about it being "clear" Speedmetal could travel at mach 1?

HU2 doesn't say anywhere that you can't CHOOSE the same power twice: only that you can't (aside from multiple limbs) ROLL the same power twice.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
"...... palladium has.... secret rules... that they never show us..... and some NPC's abide by those.... and perhaps we'll learn about palladium's secret rules for NPCS in the future"

Ok.. That's it. I think it's pretty clear you're just arguing to argue and no need to respond to such buffoonery.

The type of thing I am referring to is how Pantheons of the Megaverse had a type of demon which we eventually learn in Hades is an enhanced form of one of the new Chaos Demons.

Tywyll wrote:
There is a mud character built from APS water and APS sand(?) to create a new form.

There is? I would think just come up with a new APS entirely.

RockJock wrote:
Take a quick look at the Centurions, a big chuck are "illegal" characters.

Apex-Mega Super Soldier, with lots of gear. Fairly legal, if you throw in PU2, which was not out when CS came out, but his PS seems a wee bit on the hide side (I did not do the math to see if it is legal, just seems high).

Why throw in PU2? I don't understand. Pg 180 says to avoid bionic/robot/hardware/special training, but since super-soldier is a sub-group of Experiment it's okay to have Mega-Super Soldiers.

43 is pretty impressive, but I guess if you rolled a perfect 30 to begin with, a perfect +10 to PS from Increased Mass, and +6 from Physical Transformation you could actually get 46 before even thinking about physical skills. His SDC is similarly also achievable with good rolls.

RockJock wrote:
Spartucus-Robot, with a build tab that is way out there, plus Super Natural PS, which I don't remember being book available, but I could be wrong. Basically a Mega for a class HU2 says not to make into a Mega.

Huh, hadn't noticed that, perhaps that could be explained with PU2's Super-Invention?

RockJock wrote:
Whiz Kid-A full Analytical Genius with the addition of something resembling Imbued from PU2, or even SUper Invention sort of thrown in. Again, PU2 wasn't out yet.

Yeah he's a good example of the 'retroactively explained NPC' idea to me.

RockJock wrote:
Iron Lotus-Ancient Master, plus Immortality. Basically a Mega for a class that HU2 says no to being a Mega.

Well, if any of the Special Training categories warrants it, it's be the Ancient Master.

hbrika wrote:
Didn’t Beyond the Supernatural have a normal person class with normal skills you could roll on? I think they had rules for kids.

You basically need that "Ordinary Person" class to explain why kids can see Astral Projection. The 66% chance of temporary See the Invisible while in danger/stress.

Without that, the AP text copied to subsequent games might lead some to assume like every child has some always-on ability to see astral projecters, which isn't the case. I'd just say other games forgot to reprint every ability for kids, just like they forget to reprint chi.

eliakon wrote:
You can't legally play a non-super powered child in HU.

Pg 25 when "Age" only says it's "best" to assume "most" characters are young, the "late teens" statement isn't written as any kind of absolute minimum IMO. I don't actually see it forbidden anywhere. "When Extraordinary Abilities First Manifested" is 49% children.

Weirdly though, if going by these optional rules, everyone's going to have at least 1600 in savings, so you can't start out in debt, unless perhaps you're a Hardware who stole an experimental prototype from some company.


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 Post subject: Re: Haven's Strength?
Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:43 am
  

Wanderer

Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:49 am
Posts: 96
eliakon wrote:
Tywyll wrote:

I really don't think that argument is relevant to the discussion of why PCs are limited in ways that NPCs aren't.


On the contrary it cuts to the exact heart of that discussion.
If the argument is that ALL NPCs must only be created via the rules that PCs use...


That isn't the argument I was having or making. Nor have I seen most specifically harping on that point. You brought up the argument about kids and playing the president, which is just a reduction ad absurdum fallacy.

Quote:
Tywyll wrote:
It's one thing to say the rules represent adults and children have no meaningful combat ability (PB is a very combat focused game). It's whole other thing to say X powers do not work this way, oh wait, here's a ton of characters where X powers DO work that way with no special reason for it.


Nope. Not in the slightest.
You can't have your cake and eat it to.
Either you get to argue that ALL NPCs must follow ALL the rules, or the NPCs do NOT have to follow ALL the rules.


Only if you want to make absurd logical fallacies.

You absolutely do not have to make those requirements. Maybe you do, but I certainly don't. I can see the difference between saying supers and villains should be reproducible (or their discrepancies should be explained in some fashion) and this faulty game system should encompass all reality.

Those are VERY different things.

Quote:
You don't get to pick and choose which rules they must follow based on which ones suit your personal tastes and then say that those rules are the only ones that count for a universal standard.


Sure I do. I'm making the complaint.

Quote:
I said it before and I will say it again.
If you are not willing to argue that the only valid NPCs are those that can be made with the PC creation rules... then you are not arguing in good faith.


That doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.

Quote:
So which is it?
You are insisting on the rules be rewritten to cover all possible creation possibilities for all possible NPCs or do you simply want to be able to have YOUR pcs get the same powers that the major NPCs get to play with?


Dude, I'm the GM. I don't play at all.

Quote:
The stuff that if this was Rifts would be listed as "This class is for NPCs Only" anyway?
Because I can't see a legitimate gripe about complaining that it isn't possible to roll up a level 1 character who is as powerful as the most powerful people in the universe.
I just can't sorry.


That's good. No one said you should be able to. Again, you are reaching for logical fallacies to avoid making actual discussions. Strawman I believe?

I feel like you aren't arguing in good faith.

Quote:
Tywyll wrote:
It would be like in a fantasy game where mages couldn't cast spells wearing armor, but then tons of canon NPCs DID cast spells in armor for no apparent reason.

Not in the slightest.
Because other than the one or two NPCs who have dual-physical powers (and who are explicitly called out as being non-standard in their write ups) they don't VIOLATE the rules like that. They simply don't follow them.
There is a HUGE difference.



Many, many characters are book illegal in CS and Grammarcy. Only one (Kelvin) that I'm aware of actually comments on this.

Quote:
It is more like "Well most mages learn reading and writing to pass on their lore. These guys have bardic knowledge and memorization and a note that they use vocal tradition"


Not even remotely close analogy.
Quote:
Tywyll wrote:
It violates any kind of emersion to have a meta-rule violated in that way with no reasons given.


Only if you insist that your PCs must be able to do anything that ANY AND ALL NPCs in the game can do.
At level one
Which is manifestly an absurd stance to take for ANY game.



Good thing no one made that argument then! And where do you get the level one argument you keep harping on. That hasn't been mentioned either.

Quote:
Tywyll wrote:
It doubles down when the rule doesn't really serve any particular purpose in the first place.

No it doubles down on a rule that YOU don't feel serves any purpose. There is a big difference between "A rule I do not like" and "a rule that has no purpose at all"


What purpose does it serve? What imbalance does it prevent? What good does it add to the game? When the writer's themselves ignore it, why follow it?

Quote:
Tywyll wrote:
I mean, in a game where your powers are random, forbidding a character from using two powers together, when they may only have two powers and probably had no choice in what they rolled is pretty unnecessarily harsh.

And if your GM is such a big jerk that they will punish you for that then you have a bigger problem than that.
No seriously. That is the problem right there. Full Stop
There is a reason you have a GM and that this isn't some computer game run on a hardwired engine with no wiggle room.
That is because the GM is there to handle when things come up.
Like you know... rolling the same power twice, or two mutually contradictory powers, or two powers you can't use at once, or stuff like that.
If your GM is not willing to do that... then that is the problem not the game.
Bad GM. End Of Story.
The rest of the world knows what Rule Zero is and knows how to deal with problems that come up on really low probabilities with out insisting that the mere chance of a super low probability event requires that the rules be tossed out the window to conform to the desires of those who are unwilling to be flexible.


Oh, I see, so it's okay for the GM to house rules stuff when it suits your argument, but ridiculous otherwise. Got it.


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