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Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:45 pm
  

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Knight

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I can compromise and say that his comment was ambiguous enough to be taken multiple ways.

Quote:
the ability to move at a speed doesn't make you exceptionally adept at dealing with the implications of high speed

What ARE the implication of high speed?

Quote:
there are powers which grant increased speed which also do clearly grant improved powers of perception

Can you give an example of some of the penalties which some powers ignore which we should apply to anyone with high Spd attributes or other means of assigned speeds without perception notes?


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:02 am
  

Hero

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Axelmania wrote:
I can compromise and say that his comment was ambiguous enough to be taken multiple ways.
No, it wasn't ambiguous, as I've already demonstrated.

Axelmania wrote:
Quote:
the ability to move at a speed doesn't make you exceptionally adept at dealing with the implications of high speed

What ARE the implication of high speed?
Tunnel Vision would be the most significant in this context if you are already moving at high speed.

Axelmania wrote:
Quote:
there are powers which grant increased speed which also do clearly grant improved powers of perception

Can you give an example of some of the penalties which some powers ignore which we should apply to anyone with high Spd attributes or other means of assigned speeds without perception notes?
Ask your GM. This is actually irrelevant to my argument, which is merely that being granted the ability to move at high speed in and of itself does not mean one inherently gains improved perception.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:08 pm
  

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Knight

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My point in that regard, is if perception does not increase, is if you are a human with Spd 50 (say 30 by default, +20 from running/athletics) you would be 50x as likely to fall down as someone with Spd 1 when moving at your top speed.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:46 am
  

Hero

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Axelmania wrote:
My point in that regard, is if perception does not increase, is if you are a human with Spd 50 (say 30 by default, +20 from running/athletics) you would be 50x as likely to fall down as someone with Spd 1 when moving at your top speed.
Well, guess what, being fast as a human doesn't increase your perception!

Now, care to cite anything in support of this novel claim that someone with spd 50 is 50 time more likely to fall down at top speed than someone with spd 1?


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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:19 pm
  

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Knight

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That's not my claim, I'm saying that WOULD be the result if the required aspects of your agility/perception (ability to process your environment) did not increase proportionately with your ability to generate movement. Isn't that what you were saying about people flying around at mach speeds?

What exactly happens when someone has Fly as the Eagle cast at them? Are they unable to have aerial dogfight with other FATE-enchanted people because they lack the technology which allows people in mach fighter jets to do so?


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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:32 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Axelmania wrote:
That's not my claim, I'm saying that WOULD be the result if the required aspects of your agility/perception (ability to process your environment) did not increase proportionately with your ability to generate movement. Isn't that what you were saying about people flying around at mach speeds?

What exactly happens when someone has Fly as the Eagle cast at them? Are they unable to have aerial dogfight with other FATE-enchanted people because they lack the technology which allows people in mach fighter jets to do so?

Bad example.
Moving at relatively slow speeds and moving at super sonic speeds are rather different.
The claim that just because you can maneuver just fine at one, doesn't mean you can do the other.
More to the point simply because you can move that fast doesn't always mean that you can have an aerial dogfight in the first place!

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Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:06 pm
  

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Monk

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
The rules for moving targets give -6 to strike any target moving faster than 40 MPH. If using modern weapons that additionally counts as shooting wild which would be another -6 and an inability to call shots. if two Fly as the Eagle enhcnated people are fighting at 50 MPH, both would suffer these penalties. It wouldn't make combat between them impossible, merely highly inaccurate, and one might want to slow down for a turn to take aim.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:52 am
  

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Knight

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eliakon wrote:
Bad example.
Moving at relatively slow speeds and moving at super sonic speeds are rather different.
The claim that just because you can maneuver just fine at one, doesn't mean you can do the other.
More to the point simply because you can move that fast doesn't always mean that you can have an aerial dogfight in the first place!

"slow" is relative, I agree.

Meaning that while to someone with Spd 10, Spd 3 is slow, it is TOP SPEED for someone with Spd 3.

Just as to someone with Spd 30, Spd 10 would be slow, even though it's top speed for a lot of people.

I think there's some realistic assumption here that as you have more speed, you gain the cognitive ability to perceive your environment to be able to actually run at those speeds.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:04 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Axelmania wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Bad example.
Moving at relatively slow speeds and moving at super sonic speeds are rather different.
The claim that just because you can maneuver just fine at one, doesn't mean you can do the other.
More to the point simply because you can move that fast doesn't always mean that you can have an aerial dogfight in the first place!

"slow" is relative, I agree.

Meaning that while to someone with Spd 10, Spd 3 is slow, it is TOP SPEED for someone with Spd 3.

Just as to someone with Spd 30, Spd 10 would be slow, even though it's top speed for a lot of people.

I think there's some realistic assumption here that as you have more speed, you gain the cognitive ability to perceive your environment to be able to actually run at those speeds.

That assumption may (or may not) be true if that is your natural state.
But that assumption does not hold up if the speed is not natural.
And Astral Self/Astral Projection is not your natural state.

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The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:24 pm
  

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Knight

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Hm, it is for some creatures... but even then if they spend most of their time on the Inner Plane (where you fly at normal speeds, not mach speeds) they still might not be accustomed to flying mach if they enter Earth to coexist with it.

Nightbane who start with Astral Self at 1st level and can spend an indefinite amount of time in astral form might also arguably adopt that as their natural state.

"Natural" is sort of a subjective declaration here. If it means "I'm now able to move at speeds I couldn't move at before" then this would also describe someone who suddenly quintipled from Spd 4 to Spd 20 by getting a maximal 4D4 bonus from the running skill by selecting it as a free skill upon a new experience level, or learning it in a matter of weeks via the time-based skill acquisition rules in HU (college) or Rifts (rogue scholar).

It's possible that a Nightbane could be spending years getting accustomed to his new speed compared to someone is 5x faster a runner than they were a couple weeks ago.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:46 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Axelmania wrote:
Hm, it is for some creatures... but even then if they spend most of their time on the Inner Plane (where you fly at normal speeds, not mach speeds) they still might not be accustomed to flying mach if they enter Earth to coexist with it.

It would only be a natural state for something who's natural state is coexistence. Seriously, things that don't leave the Inner Planes wouldn't have the natural reflexes for this.

Which would mean that in the context of Nightbane... Tortorians and maybe Necrophim...
Oops.
So the Nightlords Minions are the ones that are able to handle this best and the Nighbane are out of their depth?
Hmmm, guess this is another reason why Nightbane are not winning the war solo :lol:

Axelmania wrote:
Nightbane who start with Astral Self at 1st level and can spend an indefinite amount of time in astral form might also arguably adopt that as their natural state.

No, that is still not their natural state.
They are not naturally that way ergo that is not how they are designed to function.
They do not get a neurological system optimized for functioning that way.
"I can learn to do something unnatural" is not and can never be a natural state.


Axelmania wrote:
"Natural" is sort of a subjective declaration here. If it means "I'm now able to move at speeds I couldn't move at before" then this would also describe someone who suddenly quintipled from Spd 4 to Spd 20 by getting a maximal 4D4 bonus from the running skill by selecting it as a free skill upon a new experience level, or learning it in a matter of weeks via the time-based skill acquisition rules in HU (college) or Rifts (rogue scholar).

Again you are trying to make imaginary differences by comparing false equivalences.
A miniscule change in Spd, from 4 to 20 does not require changing your neurological systems to compensate.
A change from Spd 4 to 400+ does.
Especially if you are using an imaginary set up that requires that you change the meaning of several words, use an artificial change to the rules, and argue that the rules mean the opposite of what they state...

Training slowly where you build up your speed over a period of time incrementally, with the changes happening gradually and the end result having no appreciable difference to reaction times as measured by the normal range of your species and thus the normal level of neurological wiring and adaption of your species is nothing at all remotely like suddenly gaining speeds hundreds of times faster than the fastest members of your species in a matter of seconds, literally one second you have regular speed for your race the next you are moving hundreds of times faster than any member of your race has ever moved with out the assistance of advanced technology...
Not At All The Same
Trying to compare them is a fake equivalence.

Axelmania wrote:
It's possible that a Nightbane could be spending years getting accustomed to his new speed compared to someone is 5x faster a runner
than they were a couple weeks ago."

1) You are still conflating two different things and trying to pretend that they are the same.
They are not.

2) A GM could allow at their table as a house rule that you can learn to compensate for super speeds sure...
...but it is nothing that is supported by the canon, nor is it a reason to suppose that Nightbane with Astral Self should be winning the war solo.

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:28 am
  

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Knight

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There aren't any "natural state" rules, and if your neurological system is wired to process something like the 3D6 Spd stat that humans get, it wouldn't be wired to process bonuses you get through training like 4D4 from Running.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:21 am
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Axelmania wrote:
There aren't any "natural state" rules, and if your neurological system is wired to process something like the 3D6 Spd stat that humans get, it wouldn't be wired to process bonuses you get through training like 4D4 from Running.

YOU are the one that is claiming that this is natural and that thus you get the ability to process it.
Seriously your the one that claimed that the power provides all the abilities to handle it with out any problems.
So the lack of rules is your problem not mine.

Second off, once again you are trying to pretend that this is even remotely the same.
Which I will point out is false.
Especially since we have canon statements about what the "range of human atributes" are. And "the upper limit for human speed is a stat of 18" is not in any book :lol:
This means that while the average human may have a Speed of 10, and the normal roll is 3d6. That Humans have a much wider range than that.
So your argument that this is some sort of vast increase that is totally unatural and that no human would ever be able to deal with it is absurd.
Especially when you are trying to pretend that going from Speed 10 to Speed 26 is IDENTICAL IN EVERY WAY as going from Speed 10 to an effective Speed of, I believe 983.
I am sorry, but it is not.

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:46 am
  

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Explorer

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Comment: If I could go back in time, I would join the cast of "The Thrilling Adventure Hour"
I played World of Darkness games for many years, and in both Vampire game lines there is a power that allows you to project your mind into the Astral Plane. It is very clear that you can move at the speed of thought, but cannot perceive things clearly while moving that fast. So you may move from location to location near instantaneously, but must pause to look around, as you were unable to process the things you passed. While it is true that this is a different game, the concept is the same and can be considered for reference in the absence of a clear ruling from PB on the subject.
Do with that what you will.

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taalismn wrote:
Hey, you came up with a novel, attention-getting idea, you did the legwork, you worked it through, you made it fit the setting, even though initial thought might be 'nah, it can't work, it's too silly/stupid/lame', and you posted something that only required a little adjustment, yet can be added to, without diluting its original concept. How can we not give you due support and credit?


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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:01 pm
  

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Knight

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Starting with Spd 3, if you say get up to Spd 21 from physical skill bonuses, that is x7 from where you began.

For a human who began with Spd 30 on the other hand, x7 would be Spd 210.

Unless we actually have rules for high-speed perception I'm not sure what we're arguing about...


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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:04 am
  

Hero

Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:49 am
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Axelmania wrote:
Starting with Spd 3, if you say get up to Spd 21 from physical skill bonuses, that is x7 from where you began.

For a human who began with Spd 30 on the other hand, x7 would be Spd 210.

Unless we actually have rules for high-speed perception I'm not sure what we're arguing about...

Sure, but one represents a difference of 18, and the other a difference of 180. One represents something within the natural, normal bounds of human ability, the other doesn't.

But go ahead and test it! Get in you car and try driving at 1 mph vs 7, then 2 vs 14, then 3 vs 21, then 4 vs 28, etc, 10 vs 70, etc, all the way up to 20 vs 140, and then come back and tell us if you still think that all that matters is that it is x7 speed for affecting perception.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:46 pm
  

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Dungeon Crawler

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So like. Regardless of perception abilities... Can mach one astral stop and turn on a dime? If so, being pursued at equal speed, if your pursuer were a mere 10 feet behind you, all you'd really have to do is make a B line for any room smaller than the distance between you and make a hard turn... Find a bathroom or a broom closet or an elevator, and break hard right or left (less usefull to pull a 180) or what... can they go straight verticle?

Once you've changed your vector you're out of the tiny space before the pursuer enters the space, and can only hazard a guess at which vector you took.


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