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Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:54 am
  

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D-Bee

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Hello Fellows and Heros,

is a Mind Mage able to perform Psycic Surgery on himself ? I have a discussion with a player of mine about range : touch. I see difference between touch and self. He not and i find nothing clearifing it exactly.

Kind Regards


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:22 am
  

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Heiko wrote:
Hello Fellows and Heros,

is a Mind Mage able to perform Psycic Surgery on himself ? I have a discussion with a player of mine about range : touch. I see difference between touch and self. He not and i find nothing clearifing it exactly.

Kind Regards

Hello Heiko. Welcome to the boards. I agree. Range: touch is not the same as range: self. Abilities that enable both (for instance, suppress fear) will say range: self or others by touch (or something similar). Hope that helps.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:57 am
  

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I would allow it, sure.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:08 pm
  

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Generally speaking when the range is described as 'touch' it means 'others by touch'.

As a GM, if the char's back-story is well written and the player sticks to character and does the character thing to do instead of the 'smart' thing to do, I would tend to allow for more liberal interpretations of the game rules.

Sort of how I would let a mage char bend the text of a magic spell in game if they actually describe what they intend to do with he magic spell rather than just saying they cast the spell "XXXXXX" at a target.

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Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Wed Jan 06, 2021 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:29 pm
  

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i don't let PCs perform most surgeries on themselves, so i wouldn't let them use psychic surgery to bypass it....... i guess some things would be alright, but it's really a GM's call there.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:53 pm
  

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Explorer

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Hmm, in 1E, the ability specifically stated you couldn't use it on yourself. That may mean that they intended to open it up when they rewrote the skill, or it could be that they thought the touch range would be clue enough. Maybe they thought everyone would be acquainted with the original version and would follow from there. Who knows?

If you wanted to compromise on it, I would suggest that you focus on 2 things from the 2E description:

First, it takes meditation for 2-12 minutes before you can begin, and then intense concentration during the procedure. If a character has an injury that needs surgery, do they have the mental fortitude to calmly meditate for that length of time, and stay steady through the entire duration needed to complete the surgery. Maybe there should be a supporting ability used or maybe some sort of M.E. based test/check to keep calm enough to proceed.

Second, it takes your hands to be able to perform. This means that you need to be able to reach the area (you likely need to be able to see it as well), and the plural seems to imply you need both hands to perform this ability. I can't imagine too many doctors operate without using both hands. That would mean you couldn't work on an arm/hand, since you could only do that with the remaining arm/hand. You couldn't work on your own back, or any part of your body you can't easily see/reach with both hands, but could possibly work on your own legs and abdomen.

Not sure if any of that is helpful, but there it is.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:03 pm
  

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Champion

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Comment: Kill it with Fire.
I wouldn't normally allow it, but if a character was desperate enough to try i'd give them a roll, but tell them that the effects of not succeeding would likely be worse than not having done the surgery (possible permanent stat damage, like out of the permanent damage rules), and that there would indeed be negatives to the roll, and if they were a level 12 mind mage with the medical skill from level 1 they would be a lot more likely to do no permanent than say a level 4 blacksmith with no medical skills whatsoever.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:30 am
  

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Hi Heiko,

according to the definition on page 185 PFRPG core book, touch needs physical contact. It doesn't say anything about a restriction to only touching others. Going from that definition, I would say that one may touch oneself, if one so wishes.

The more restrictive interpretation has two arguments for it. One, there are two different terms, ie "self" and "touch" and sometimes it says explicitly "self or touch". Second, circumstantially, several spells/psi saying touch also say in the spell description that it may only be used on others.

I should like to argue that unless the spell (i) does not explicitly prohibit touching oneself or (ii) says explicitly that the spell effects only others, spells/psi with only "touch" as range allow effecting oneself.

I like Kraynic's line of thought a lot and would add his argument for common sense. When a spell/psi requires the free use of both hands, then that requirement will have to be met (although I wonder if a combination with "Helping Hands" would work - Psi Mystic for example could do that, I would guess).

Further, higher ranges usually include lower ranges as in "up to" 100 feet or as in "up to" touch.

Would we allow a Wizard to kill himself by using a Fire Bolt on himself or let a Fireball detonate right where he stands? A "gun to the temple"-move. I submit that if we answer that with "yes", we will have to accept that "touch" includes "self" unless prohibited in the spell description.

Kindest regards,
Hendrik

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:27 pm
  

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Hi Hendrik!

I have to disagree. I should like to argue that if it doesn't say self then it doesn't affect self! :-) The descriptions of the abilities that say range: touch all affect other people, not self. That's why those that do, state self or self and others by touch. Using other healing psionics as examples: attack disease, deaden pain, healing touch, increased healing, sleep, and lust for life all say touch - they can't be used on self (some of the abilities confirm this in their descriptions for added clarity). Bio-regeneration and resist fatigue are self only. And suppress fear is self or others - as it states.

The same goes for spells - they all state self or other if that is an option (breathe without air, armor of Ithan, chameleon, etc.). Those that say touch only affect others by touch.

Neither of your fireball type examples are range: touch, so they aren't very good examples in this case - they are released and would hit whatever they were aimed at. Either way, I'm not sure a wizard can control where a fireball "detonates" - there is no detonation, it just damages what it hits.

I think that psychic surgery feels like it might be a special case to some people because the power involves the additional aspect of moving ones hands about to actually physically effect flesh, bone and such, but really in terms of being a psychic power it is no different to laying on of hands to impart increased healing or similar.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:36 pm
  

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Champion

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Hendrik wrote:
I would say that one may touch oneself, if one so wishes.
Soldier of Od wrote:
I have to disagree.

Greetings and Salutations. Mothers of teenage boys everywhere laugh in the general direction of anyone who thinks you can't touch yourself.

*Clears throats.* All jokes aside though, I think Soldier of Od has the correct idea regarding intent of the rules. I think the intent is that Touch is meant to only be used on others. Though I also find that range restriction to lack any real logic whatsoever. I can lift one hand up, and touch my other arm without anything stopping me. If I only had one arm, I could still touch my leg, or even lift one leg and touch my other leg with my foot. Do examples need to continue?

The rules also don't state that "Touch" only works on others, and it's just one of those things we just kind of have to guess at (which is common for Palladium rules). There's no rule prohibiting touching yourself in general (though some abilities have specific limitations, which does not necessarily mean this is a general rule). And Palladium terminology tends to be all over the place, so it's kind of hard to be certain. While working on a different project, I specifically made the decision I wasn't going to do Palladium's job and clean up everything to what I think they may have meant. So I'd make a call the best I could on the rules and logic.

As for examples of Touch regarding Healing Psionics ...

Healing Touch and Increased Healing are fairly clear they work on other people.

Attack Disease (which could just as easily be "Self" as the psychic must draw the illness into themselves), Exorcism, Lust for Life, and Transfer I.S.P., by the way they're written, can only be used on others.

Deaden Pain, Induce Sleep, and Psychic Diagnosis I'm not so sure about. I don't see any real issues by the way they're written to work only on others.

Psychic Surgery is a tricky one, as I can see the argument how hard it would be to perform surgery on yourself. On the other hand, I don't see any reason the psychic shouldn't be able to pull a bullet from their own leg (which is one of its abilities). Pain would be one of the factors, but Psychic Surgery automatically reduces the pain (Deaden Pain would completely negate any pain, if allowed).

Now other examples of Touch are interesting, but have a different meaning than the one attempted to be portrayed here. So, for example, the spells Armor of Ithan, Chameleon, Faerie Speak, etc. The use on "Others" means the other gains the benefits while the caster doesn't gain any at all. So, if you cast Armor of Ithan on, say, a friend, then you (the caster) don't get Armor of Ithan and are no longer involved in it in any way. Healing Touch and Increased Healing (two that specify that it only works on others) are touch and go (similar to how Armor of Ithan would work).

But let's look at Psychic Surgery. Regardless of range "Touch," the psychic is actually the one using the ability. Even if the Psychic is performing surgery on another, the psychic is in direct control of that ability and required to continue maintaining it. Telekinetic Punch is range of "Touch," but you're not actually giving another the ability to throw a TK Punch and the psychic is still the one using the power, just that it will influence by touch. Can the psychic not punch himself? I mean, do you become immune to "Quit hitting yourself" while using TK Punch?

Note: In many other cases of "Touch" and not including "Self," the ability is working on inanimate objects and/or an attack where it's probably considered the user wouldn't intentionally target themselves.

With all that said, PF Revised Edition (11th Printing), page 132, Psychic Surgery specifically states that it cannot be used on oneself. Whether or not because they figured you couldn't perform your own brain surgery (which I'd agree with, by the way), or a designed limitation I'm not sure. Also, this line is not in 2nd Edition. So if this is an oversight left off or an intentional omission I cannot say.

Palladium is not always clear, and we're often left to try and glean the intent. Intent isn't necessarily in the rules though, and guessing intent doesn't necessarily mean our guess is correct. Farewell and safe journeys.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:17 pm
  

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Kraynic wrote:
Hmm, in 1E, the ability specifically stated you couldn't use it on yourself. That may mean that they intended to open it up when they rewrote the skill, or it could be that they thought the touch range would be clue enough. Maybe they thought everyone would be acquainted with the original version and would follow from there. Who knows?


Unfortunately they left that wording out on the RMB version as well. I suspect more people are familiar with the power from that setting than from 1stEd PFRPG. So if PB does intend that the power can't be used on one's self they aren't being particularly clear.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:36 pm
  

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Well, I don't want to highjack this thread so I'll address the original question before I ask my follow up.

I'd allow it. However, the Mind Mage had better start with deaden pain. For Psychic surgery, I think there is pain involved as the Mind Mage meddles with the target's body. Now, I know that there are no nerves in the internal organs and such, but I still think the "surgery" would create some pain. If Psychic Surgery is performed on someone or on oneself, there should be either a PE save or a ME save to not passout. Not a big deal if the Mind Mage is performing the skill on someone else, but a big problem if it's on the Mind Mage.

My follow up is do you think a Mind Mage could terminate a pregnancy? That could make them very much in demand for nobles.

-Vek
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Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:45 pm
  

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Veknironth wrote:
My follow up is do you think a Mind Mage could terminate a pregnancy? That could make them very much in demand for nobles.


If they are psychic surgeons, certainly. Psychic Diagnosis would tell them that the woman is pregnant, and would guide them enough, IMO, to make removal of an implanted egg (or fetus, but that would be easier to find) fairly trivial.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:27 pm
  

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Palladin

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Heiko wrote:
Hello Fellows and Heros,

is a Mind Mage able to perform Psycic Surgery on himself ? I have a discussion with a player of mine about range : touch. I see difference between touch and self. He not and i find nothing clearifing it exactly.

Kind Regards

I want to say that I think it would depend on the complexity of the surgery. If you could reasonably do the "surgery" action on yourself then I would say it could be done even if it isn't technically in the spirit of the power. However, wouldn't Bio-Regeneration (Healing or Super version) essentially act as "Psychic Surgery" in most instances (I could see it not expelling foreign objects or for when they are in a coma, but broken bones and internal injuries I would think BR would heal)?

However after reviewing the power, it requires another power (Psychic Diagnosis) to even use it and then you get into the whole range issue. Touch and Self are not considered to overlap (even though one could "touch" themselves) in terms of range. An example is "Suppress Fear", the Range specifically says "Self or others by touch", which indicates that powers that work via touch are intended to be used on someone other than themselves.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:37 am
  

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If the surgery were on an extremity that could be reached while "extended," I'd be sorely tempted to say sure, but abdominal, thorasic, or cranial? HECK NO! For the extremities, only easily reached VISIBLE surfaces.

As for powers like BR - I would rule that soft tissue damage is easily healed, but broken bones would need to be set before using it on them. BR also would not expel a foreign object. As a GM I would rule it would seal the tissues around the object.

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